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[https://web.archive.org/web/20210320224135/https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vThvKnVHDeF0iGgL7Bkx6wz_SE2hh2RvxzqEHyqtZvR3H0DXuOwwh5MdwnbzMYvluul97ld364VANqm/pubhtml# https://web.archive.org/web/20210320224135/https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vThvKnVHDeF0iGgL7Bkx6wz_SE2hh2RvxzqEHyqtZvR3H0DXuOwwh5MdwnbzMYvluul97ld364VANqm/pubhtml#]Articles about the 3K[https://www.ginx.tv/en/twitch/ludwig-subathon-how-much-money-will-the-twitch-star-make https://www.ginx.tv/en/twitch/ludwig-subathon-how-much-money-will-the-twitch-star-make][https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/ludwig-reveals-twitch-subathon-earnings-1540401/ https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/ludwig-reveals-twitch-subathon-earnings-1540401/][https://dotesports.com/streaming/news/ludwig-estimates-he-will-make-over-10000-from-his-subathon-stream https://dotesports.com/streaming/news/ludwig-estimates-he-will-make-over-10000-from-his-subathon-stream][https://kotaku.com/twitch-streamer-behind-never-ending-marathon-says-hell-1846554595 https://kotaku.com/twitch-streamer-behind-never-ending-marathon-says-hell-1846554595][https://www.gamingverdict.com/news/ludwig-twitch-subathon-stream-generates-3k-wealth-so-farhttp://wumo.com/wumo/2015/06/19 https://www.gamingverdict.com/news/ludwig-twitch-subathon-stream-generates-3k-wealth-so-farhttp://wumo.com/wumo/2015/06/19] |
He Knows React Content Is Wrong, But He Does It Anyway |
'''Original video: '''[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDmFIM_LtMI He Knows React Content Is Wrong, But He Does It Anyway] |
Ludwig: Welcome back boys, to mogul mail. How's everybody doing? It's your favorite drama channel in the world, and we have some juicy stuff today, between two youtubers; DarkviperAU and Moistcritikal, actually a friend of mine, so, you know, I'm personally vested in this, I understand that going in. |
'''DarkViper: '''This is Ludwig giving his thoughts on my dispute with Charlie over react content, but it should be obvious that Ludwig has more bias here than mere friendship. Ludwig is a reactor, a guy who often spends many hours watching other people’s hard work as a substitute for doing anything himself. |
Ludwig: Reacting is generally a way for streamrs to fill content with higher level content because they’re reacting to someone else’s, so not only do you have already the floor of what the video you’re watching is, but then whatever you add to it, even if its like, a “PogChamp” face. |
Right now I’m watching this video because i have food and i have to wait 30 minutes for my YouTube video to be uploaded by my editor, and so, im waiting, so i'm watching this video, thats why im watching “write full transparency” |
'''DarkViper:''' It is less that Ludwig’s goal is to defend Charlie and more to defend the idea that a guy worth millions of dollars should be able to use other people’s unpaid labour to expand his fame and wealth at the expense of everyone else. |
Ludwig: The gist of it, from my understanding, is Darkviper thinks that react streamers are a stain on the earth, that the creator economy would be better if all reacting went away. |
Reacting is incredibly lazy, it's super easy to do, and all it does, it takes impressions away from other channels. There are impressions, and when a reactor gets impressions like, if you get a million impressions, its taking it away from other people who'd get them, maybe not the original video creator, right, if i like, react to someone making a 3D spider-man model, with a 3D pen, not all the impressions I got, will go to that guy, but they’ll go to someone who’s making original content, and that should be rewarded, which i think is faulty. You can probably understand it just personally, you know, you might only watch live streams if i am live, i only watch live streams if my friends are live, and if they're not, it doesn't mean my impressions goes to another streamer or my view goes to another streamer, i just don't watch streams. And i think the same thing applies to Youtube channels, and in all the sorts there’s a misunderstanding, he is implying that there's a finite amount of impressions, and if you removed all the react streamers, the impressions would stay the same, not that the site would get smaller, which i think is the reality of the situation, and maybe he’s okay with that, maybe he’s okay if everybody leaves and goes rock climbing or plays baseball, i think was his example, but you are making the creator space smaller as a whole. |
'''DarkViper: '''There are a great degree of unspoken faulty or unknowable assumptions here, which is impressive given how imprecise Ludwig’s claim is. The immediate problem is that he didn’t even give an estimate as to how much any site would get smaller. Technically if you take a rock off a mountain it is smaller but that isn’t exactly meaningful. The only people who should use online media less if react content didn’t exist are those who both exclusively watch react content and only it specifically can satisfy whatever motivated them to seek out content in the first place. I don’t really think there would be many people who fit into the category of effectively hating all online media unless they are watching someone else watching it. I argue that everyone else would just move on to the next thing the same as we all do whenever what we are currently watching no longer satisfies our needs for content. Besides, I am not sure on what grounds he rejects the possibility that original content being more rewarded, could result in a platform being more appealing to viewers not less? Even the reactors would have to work harder to make actual content instead of being lazy. In the case of people watching YouTube videos, Ludwig seems to suggest that if all lazy reuploads were replaced with original content that less people overall would be interested in the platform. I am not sure on what he bases this. '''DarkViper: '''It is important to remember that it was the algorithms that first presented react content to people in the hopes of satisfying them and this is the same machine learning that would attempt to get them to watch something else. Why Ludwig believes react content uniquely qualified to keep people on, or coming back to, a platform, I have no idea. We have little reason to believe that the effective ‘next choice’ for an impression will be significantly different in terms of its ability to inspire people to stay on, or come back to, a platform. For some this other choice might see a reduction, others there would be no change, and others they'd use the platform even more. Maybe the impressions overall get a tad bit smaller, maybe they stay the same, maybe they grow, but in all cases, original content creators benefit as none of it would go to reactors instead of them. '''DarkViper: '''Like if the platform lost 1% of the impressions that go to reactors but the other 99% changed to original creators, sure that is technically loss for the entire platform but that it is still a substantial increase for all original creators.'''DarkViper: '''Bottom line, Ludwig is asserting that there are unicorns so committed to the contempt of watching people watch YouTube videos that they won’t ever watch anything else to the same or greater extent. I am not sure how you think this is helping your case, as these people would never watch the original creators who worked to make this content in the first place. |
Ludwig: But let's get to actually reacting. What do you do about it? Reacting’s lazy, sure, sometimes reactors fuck over creators, abolutely; |
What do you think about this? Every loving twithc streamer ever. Has 88.000 views, and reacting to it on my clip channel has 1.2M views. Is that fucked up? |
Reactors are often times able to make themselves the mecca of content for people, because not only are they able to create original content, but they can react to anything, so viewers have a one-stop shop, yeah, and i think these are good points, but the onus is on the platform, is the problem that twitch streamers aren't doing enough, to credit creators, or is the problem that the platform takes zero responsibility for stolen work? In my mind, the platform creators are just like business. They try to do things skinny, they do things dirty, they don't follow the rules, they break rules, and in business, we like prop that up, we're like wow, it's amazing, Amazon. How did you do it? -And Jeff Bezos, was like: Well, i fucked a lot of people over and i scammed. |
My point is that people are going to do whatever they can in a multi-million dollar pool of people, trying to create content to rise to the top and if the people at the top are doing this, clearly, that's part of why they’re not saying it's a good thing, i'm just saying, that's a fact. |
Reacting, factually gets you higher, average viewers, and if you’re not doing it, you're going to be below the curve, i think that's a fact, and i don't think it should be on creators to try to be morally righteous while they’re competing against people who are doing it. Well, they’re just going to fail, taking a react video which is just taking someone’s hours or weeks of work, and then profiting off of it is bad. |
'''DarkViper: '''You are arguing that people should feel fine and should not be judged poorly, for acting immorally against other people if the consequence of acting morally would lose them monetary benefits or social status. This mindset is the cause of so much pain and suffering in the world, and it is the biggest reason social progress is hard. People join a corrupt system and say “well, when in Rome” and figuratively start kicking old people down the stairs arguing that it is someone else’s responsibility to stop them. Just because you might not experience negative consequences for exploiting or harming others, or even if you might receive benefits, this doesn’t mean that it is justifiable to do. The biggest flaw in what you have said here Ludwig is an alternative you haven’t considered. What if, hear me out, you don’t actually need to have success that can only be achieved immorally. Why not be satisfied with having just what you can achieve morally? The underlying premise of what you have said here is that attempting to be literally the best is a requirement, but it’s not. You already have more money and fame than effectively everyone who has ever lived. You have no need to do react content, you do it, knowing you are fucking over other people, because consideration for them is secondary to fulfilling your own emotional want for more, simply for the sake of having more. |
Ludwig: What about, like, the veil? So he made this video. Every OTK twitch stream, featuring Ludwig. It has 24k views. It's been reacted to by Sved, Mizkill, emmy, nmp, seer, Asmon, and myself. Each of these people when they reacted to it had more viewers than he had on the original video, so, he technically lost all of those views, but he did do, i think, kind of a smart thing, by uploading their reactions and now mizkiff reacting to it, has more views than the original, which is kinda crazy. |
'''DarkViper: '''You have just made a wishy washy video that at the end of the day advocates for people to not change what they are doing, or who they support, and instead just let everything stay the same until a miracle happens. This same sentiment has been expressed by every person who has ever exploited others throughout history. |
Ludwig: That’s crazy, that's crazy dude. |
And youtube already solved this. I am a live streamer on youtube, and when i react to things, even when i use music, i get a copyright claim, and that copyright claim gives the revenue that i made from that live stream or sometimes for my videos, this video cant be monetized , I uploaded it yesterday, it's the tick tock don't laugh challenge,and i watched unusual memes, and uploaded it to nine minute video. The five second clip right here, rock smashes truck. Chat, do you think it goes well or goes bad? It goes bad, oh, now in chat, by the way, it's so addictive, like you can get more addictive, this guy’s great, this is what a hilarious quip. I got that, entire video demonetized, and now the creator of that which is owned, by junk and media, which is a whole nother problem, well now get all the profits and this happens, all the time, on my live streams, genuinely every single live stream i do is copyright claimed, here's the proof, the red means i can't be monetized because it was claimed by someone else. People who i react to get the money that they deserve for their videos, because they use youtube’s content ID system, to claim anyone who watches their videos. |
'''DarkViper: '''For the sake of brevity, I am going to just list the top 8 things wrong with this section: |
One: The solution is no react content, and you are showing that the sanctions that YouTube put on you have done nothing to stop you doing react content. |
Two: You have unlisted all these videos with claims on them, so the claimants will only get a pittance. |
Three: The claimant gets nothing of the memberships or donations which are worth far more money to a livestreamer. |
Four: As you have acknowledged before in other videos, at our level exposure is usually more valuable than money and you are still stealing exposure away from the wider market that you have not returned. You will always be the bigger content creator, fueled by unlimited high quality unpaid labour. |
Five: Getting into the Content ID system is not an automatic process. All creators are not in the program. You have to apply to it, be accepted, and submit reference material for the system. It is why despite some video game songs being on YouTube itself, we don’t get content ID claims for them. They are on YouTube, but not in the content ID system. |
Six: Whenever you Content ID claims someone, you risk immense backlash from the public, I recall Alinity, Destiny, and Linus Tech Tips experiencing it for example. It is an automated system and people will label you a money hungry asshole attacking creators if it is applied incorrectly. Other times it will be applied correctly, and you will still be called a money hungry asshole attacking creators. When you’re an amorphous blob of a company like, juke and media, it doesn't matter what people think of you, but as a content creator, you have a brand, it matters what the audience think, it's why content creators don't use the content ID system usually. |
The seventh reason, you need to have exclusive rights to whatever you are putting in the system. If your work has someone else copyrighted material, even if it falls under fair use, this could cause you issues. |
Eight, it puts a burden on the original creator to monitor a system, taking away from their time actually spent creating. The point is that reactors have an advantage due to needing to do far less work, adding to the work of the actual creators is just adding to that. |
Ludwig: DarkViper for his outros, just use “be sure to like and subscribe, also leave a comment.” If kingdom hearts music on your mind, my feed gives them to me from all over my channel which is like, whatever i dont give a fuck, i like music, all the time. But clearly, he's using that song because it's probably not going to be copyright claimed, it's why I use video game music. It's just as illegal as using Ariana Grande’s new song, but they don't claim it. But that's okay, even though that took probably weeks, maybe even months of work for the studio to create, it's okay, to take that, what's not okay, is to take from creators. I don't care about being an arbiter of justice. |
'''DarkViper: '''This usage of 15 seconds of cover of a song that came out over 20 years ago is not a substitute for the original. I am obviously not against using another person’s work to create something original and distinct, else I couldn’t respond to your video without being a hypocrite. Although to be fair to me, I do believe that if you are personally involved in something you should have much greater leeway with using the original material. It is not merely how much work went into the original, but the impact of your usage also matters to me. I am certainly not impacting Kingdom Hearts 1, but regardless, this is just disingenuous. Ludwig is acting like watching hundreds if not thousands of hours of YouTube on his livestreams, and reuploading this content to his YouTube channel, should be assessed as similar to 15 seconds of a song. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, sure my client did murder 25 people but you remember when you ate that last piece of pizza your friend was clearly reaching for. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, I rest my case. |
Ludwig: Honestly, I think a lot of DarkViper’s goal cause, he said in his response video, that he doesn't gain from this, that he's making enemies; I don't think that's accurate. There are specifically four people who are named directly, Hassan, Pokey, Moist and xQc, and i don't think that was an accident i dont think these four examples, the four largest twitch streamers or four of them was only to drive a point home, i think its to create a little controversy, get a little attention around the videos, and i'm pretty sure his videos trending in being one of his most viewed videos in the first day, and in the past month, is a proof of that, but again i don't care, about that, that's not the point. |
'''DarkViper: '''It is always important to remember that when assessing motivations based on outcomes that the outcomes need to be predictable from the outset. For example let us say I was climbing on my roof but fell off. I later woke up in hospital, fell in love with a nurse and got married. Ludwig apparently would say my marriage proves that I climbed onto my roof in order to get married. Ludwig is effectively claiming I am a God or Laplace's demon and so predicted these outcomes beforehand and this spurred me into action. Ludwig seems entirely unable to identify a genuine care for others, perhaps because he lacks these feelings himself.'''DarkViper: '''I honestly dispute that I gained at all from my original script, certainly when compared to the opportunity cost of writing it, in part because it is always better to ingratiate yourself with the powerful rather than criticize them. But let us grant the premise that I did gain from my run in with Charlie and assess how likely it was that I acted to achieve this effect. |
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