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Fun fact: more websites are now using jQuery than Flash.
jQuery is an amazing tool that’s made JavaScript accessible to developers and designers of all levels of experience. However, as Spiderman taught us, “with great power comes great responsibility.” The unfortunate downside to jQuery is that while it makes it easy to write JavaScript, it makes it easy to write really really f*&#ing bad JavaScript. Scripts that slow down page load, unresponsive user interfaces, and spaghetti code knotted so deep that it should come with a bottle of whiskey for the next
sucker developer that has to work on it.
This becomes more important for those of us who have yet to move into the magical fairy wonderland where none of our clients or users view our pages in Internet Explorer. The IE JavaScript engine moves at the speed of an advancing glacier compared to more modern browsers, so optimizing our code for performance takes on an even higher level of urgency.
Thankfully,. We’ll tackle all three of these and hopefully you’ll walk away with some new jQuery batarangs to toss around in your next project.
Selector optimization
Selector speed: fast or slow?
Saying that the power behind jQuery comes from its ability to select DOM elements and act on them is like saying that Photoshop is a really good tool for selecting pixels on screen and making them change color – it’s a bit of a gross oversimplification, but the fact remains that jQuery gives us a ton of ways to choose which element or elements in a page we want to work with. However, a surprising number of web developers are unaware that all selectors are not created equal; in fact, it’s incredible just how drastic the performance difference can be between two selectors that, at first glance, appear nearly identical. For instance, consider these two ways of selecting all paragraph tags inside a
<div> with an ID.
$("#id p");
$("#id").find("p");
Would it surprise you to learn that the second way can be more than twice as fast as the first? Knowing which selectors outperform others (and why) is a pretty key building block in making sure your code runs well and doesn’t frustrate your users waiting for things to happen.
There are many different ways to select elements using jQuery, but the most common ways can be basically broken down into five different methods. In order, roughly, from fastest to slowest, these are:
$("#id");
This is without a doubt the fastest selector jQuery provides because it maps directly to the native
document.getElementbyId()JavaScript method. If possible, the selectors listed below should be prefaced with an ID selector in conjunction with jQuery’s .find() method to limit the scope of the page that has to be searched (as in the
$("#id").find("p")example shown above).
$("p");,
$("input");,
$("form");and so on
Selecting elements by tag name is also fast, since it maps directly to the native
document.getElementsByTagname()method.
$(".class");
Selecting by class name is a little trickier. While still performing very well in modern browsers, it can cause some pretty significant slowdowns in IE8 and below. Why? IE9 was the first IE version to support the native
document.getElementsByClassName()JavaScript method. Older browsers have to resort to using much slower DOM-scraping methods that can really impact performance.
$("[attribute=value]");
There is no native JavaScript method for this selector to use, so the only way that jQuery can perform the search is by crawling the entire DOM looking for matches. Modern browsers that support the
querySelectorAll()method will perform better in certain cases (Opera, especially, runs these searches much faster than any other browser) but, generally speaking, this type of selector is Slowey McSlowersons.
$(":hidden");
Like attribute selectors, there is no native JavaScript method for this one to use. Pseudo-selectors can be painfully slow since the selector has to be run against every element in your search space. Again, modern browsers with
querySelectorAll()will perform slightly better here, but try to avoid these if at all possible. If you must use one, try to limit the search space to a specific portion of the page:
$("#list").find(":hidden");
But, hey, proof is in the performance testing, right? It just so happens that said proof is sitting right here. Be sure to notice the class selector numbers beside IE7 and 8 compared to other browsers and then wonder how the people on the IE team at Microsoft manage to sleep at night. Yikes.
Chaining
Almost all jQuery methods return a jQuery object. This means that when a method is run, its results are returned and you can continue executing more methods on them. Rather than writing out the same selector multiple times over, just making a selection once allows multiple actions to be run on it.
Without chaining
$("#object").addClass("active"); $("#object").css("color","#f0f"); $("#object").height(300);
With chaining
$("#object").addClass("active").css("color", "#f0f").height(300);
This has the dual effect of making your code shorter and faster. Chained methods will be slightly faster than multiple methods made on a cached selector, and both ways will be much faster than multiple methods made on non-cached selectors. Wait… “cached selector”? What is this new devilry?
Caching
Another easy way to speed up your code that seems to be a mystery to developers is the idea of caching your selectors. Think of how many times you end up writing the same selector over and over again in any project. Every
$(".element") selector has to search the entire DOM each time, regardless of whether or not that selector had been previously run. Running the selection once and then storing the results in a variable means that the DOM only has to be searched once. Once the results of a selector have been cached, you can do anything with them.
First, run your search (here we’re selecting all of the
<li> elements inside
<ul id="blocks">):
var blocks = $("#blocks").find("li");
Now, you can use the
blocks variable wherever you want without having to search the DOM every time.
$("#hideBlocks").click(function() { blocks.fadeOut(); }); $("#showBlocks").click(function() { blocks.fadeIn(); });
My advice? Any selector that gets run more than once should be cached. This jsperf test shows just how much faster a cached selector runs compared to a non-cached one (and even throws some chaining love in to boot).
Event delegation
Event listeners cost memory. In complex websites and apps it’s not uncommon to have a lot of event listeners floating around, and thankfully jQuery provides some really easy methods for handling event listeners efficiently through delegation.
In a bit of an extreme example, imagine a situation where a 10×10 cell table needs to have an event listener on each cell; let’s say that clicking on a cell adds or removes a class that defines the cell’s background color. A typical way that this might be written (and something I’ve often seen during code reviews) is like so:
$('table').find('td').click(function() { $(this).toggleClass('active'); });
jQuery 1.7 has provided us with a new event listener method, .on(). It acts as a utility that wraps all of jQuery’s previous event listeners into one convenient method, and the way you write it determines how it behaves. To rewrite the above
.click() example using
.on(), we’d simply do the following:
$('table').find('td').on('click',function() { $(this).toggleClass('active'); });
Simple enough, right? Sure, but the problem here is that we’re still binding one hundred event listeners to our page, one to each individual table cell. A far better way to do things is to create one event listener on the table itself that listens for events inside it. Since the majority of events bubble up the DOM tree, we can bind a single event listener to one element (in this case, the
<table>) and wait for events to bubble up from its children. The way to do this using the
.on() method requires only one change from our code above:
$('table').on('click','td',function() { $(this).toggleClass('active'); });
All we’ve done is moved the
td selector to an argument inside the
.on() method. Providing a selector to
.on() switches it into delegation mode, and the event is only fired for descendants of the bound element (
table) that match the selector (
td). With that one simple change, we’ve gone from having to bind one hundred event listeners to just one. You might think that the browser having to do one hundred times less work would be a good thing and you’d be completely right. The difference between the two examples above is staggering.
(Note that if your site is using a version of jQuery earlier than 1.7, you can accomplish the very same thing using the .delegate() method. The syntax of how you write the function differs slightly; if you’ve never used it before, it’s worth checking the API docs for that page to see how it works.)
DOM manipulation
jQuery makes it very easy to manipulate the DOM. It’s trivial to create new nodes, insert them, remove other ones, move things around, and so on. While the code to do this is simple to write, every time the DOM is manipulated, the browser has to repaint and reflow content which can be extremely costly. This is no more evident than in a long loop, whether it be a standard
for() loop,
while() loop, or
jQuery $.each() loop.
In this case, let’s say we’ve just received an array full of image URLs from a database or Ajax call or wherever, and we want to put all of those images in an unordered list. Commonly, you’ll see code like this to pull this off:
var arr = [reallyLongArrayOfImageURLs]; $.each(arr, function(count, item) { var newImg = '<li><img src="'+item+'"></li>'; $('#imgList').append(newImg); });
There are a couple of problems with this. For one (which you should have already noticed if you’ve read the earlier part of this article), we’re making the
$("#imgList") selection once for each iteration of our loop. The other problem here is that each time the loop iterates, it’s adding a new
<li> to the DOM. Each of those insertions is going to be costly, and if our array is quite large then this could lead to a massive slowdown or even the dreaded ‘A script is causing this page to run slowly’ warning.
var arr = [reallyLongArrayOfImageURLs], tmp = ''; $.each(arr, function(count, item) { tmp += '<li><img src="'+item+'"></li>'; }); $('#imgList').append(tmp);
All we’ve done here is create a
tmp variable that each
<li> is added to as it’s created. Once our loop has finished iterating, that
tmp variable will contain all of our list items in memory, and can be appended to our
<ul> all in one go. Browsers work much faster when working with objects in memory rather than on screen, so this is a much faster, more CPU-cycle-friendly method of building a list.
Wrapping up
These are far from being the only ways to make your jQuery code run better, but they are among the simplest ones to implement. Though each individual change may only make a few milliseconds of difference, it doesn’t take long for those milliseconds to add up. Studies have shown that the human eye can discern delays of as few as 100ms, so simply making a few changes sprinkled throughout your code can very easily have a noticeable effect on how well your website or app performs. Do you have other jQuery optimization tips to share? Leave them in the comments and help make us all better.
Now go forth and make awesome!
Comments are ordered by helpfulness, as indicated by you. Help us pick out the gems and discourage asshattery by voting on notable comments.
Got something to add? You can leave a comment below.
13/12/2011
This is some good advice – I’d like to add my stone on the wall. On the last example, tmp += “…” creates an intermediary string on every iteration, resulting in poor performance when dealing with large arrays. You should instead make tmp an array, push the li’s in, and then join(’‘) it.
Vote Helpful or Unhelpful
13/12/2011
If you’d rather not play around with all that messy string concatenation when performing costly DOM manipulations, give createDocumentFragment a try.
var div = document.createElement(“div”);
div.appendChild( document.createTextNode(“Test div to be inserted 100 times”) );
var fragment = document.createDocumentFragment();
for(i = 0; i < 100; i++) { fragment.appendChild( div.cloneNode(true) );
}
document.getElementById(“container”).appendChild( fragment.cloneNode(true)
);
Amazingly the browser support for documentFragments goes back to IE6.The benefit comes from the ability to add the entire fragment DOM tree into the page DOM with one insertion – just like the method outlined in the article.
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20/12/2011
Bam! Here it is!
It’s a couple of years old but the idea is still solid. Pushing values into an array on each iteration and then using $(“whatever”).append(myreallylongarray.join(’‘)); to do your heavy lifting shows HUGE performance boosts. In retrospect this is the “right way” example I should have used for the DOM Manipulation section of my article, but hindsight is 20/20, etc.
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13/12/2011
Nice article.
…Just as long as people remember that, as long as you’re at least somewhat considerate of the selectors you pass to jQuery, you really don’t need to worry about selector performance too much. jQuery does an excellent job of optimizing as much as possible. But it’s good to understand the basic concepts, like right-left parsing.
Sure – $(‘div’).find(‘p’) may potentially be fractionally faster than $(‘div p’), but I won’t lose sleep if I use the latter. Readability is more important in most cases….or unless there is noticeable slowdown in your page’s performance. :)
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13/12/2011
This has been a very good read, it’s made me more aware of how sluggish my jQuery code actually is compared to how it could be!
I have a question though, you mentioned caching, how does this fair with using $(this). For example, if you only called upon an element once in your script for a click detection, would you need to assign it to a variable first if that element was the same element also be altered? Some examples…
1st Example
$(”#div_id”).click(function() { $(this).hide(); });
2nd Example
var div_id = $(”#div_id”);
div_id.click(function() { div_id.hide(); });
Apologies for the bad example…
But is there much of a difference in loading time between the two?
Is $(this) a sort of variation of caching as it’s already selected the element and you’re just calling it back by saying “this one, the one you just found, yeah, use that”, or is it having to wade through all the code again to find it?
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13/12/2011
Useful tips all. One mini-pattern that I’ve picked up from co-workers is, when caching selectors, prefix your variable with $ to note that it’s a jQuery object. This can be really helpful in methods where you’re dealing with lots of variables, especially when you come back later to modify them or fix bugs.
var $blocks = $(”#blocks”).find(“li”);
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13/12/2011
Fantastic, specially liked the .find() optimization.
For someone coming from ActionScript jQuery shares lots of optimizations.
But DOM manipulation is the heavyweight here.
I was expecting a mention to the second parameter of jQuery(), the context parameter. I was under the impression it narrowed the scope of the DOM search. Is it really faster? or is .find() better.
I also have the doubt as to how does jQuery reads selectors. Is it like CSS (from right to left) or always goes for the ID first?
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13/12/2011
Nice article.
Last example can perform even better if you use array joining instead of string concatenation.
var arr = [reallyLongArrayOfImageURLs], tmp = [];
$.each(arr, function(count, item) { tmp.push(’<li><img src=”‘’”></li>’);
});
$(’#imgList’).append(tmp.join(”“));
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13/12/2011
Interesting article, objective, useful, and well-supported. I really liked the part on event delegation.
One thing I’m noticing is a schism in the developer community around conflicting sets of standards (performance, aesthetics, reusability).
For example, though inserting inline HTML for DOM manipulaiton may be the fastest method, I recently was turned down an interview because a code sample did just this (which was a violation of separation of concerns or some such philosophical thing).
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13/12/2011
Thanks for this great article !
Here’s the test for the last part, ‘DOM Manipulation’, quickly thrown together, with a notSoLongImageArrayFromFlickr:
Now, off to test it with a lot of different browsers :)
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13/12/2011
Thanks for the feedback and questions, everyone. I’ll try to get to them all in time, today’s going to be a little crazy around the office, though, but I’ll do what I can.
One quick response in regards to selector performance, right-to-left, context vs. .find(), etc.: this jsperf example runs through various methods and in almost all browsers (Opera being the lone exception), .find() outperforms other selectors.
Caveat: all methods get obliterated by native JavaScript (see revision 69 of the same test for proof – I created rev 70 and removed the native version just to make the graph readable), but still.
@Andi: yes, those two methods will generally yield pretty similar results. Using .find() for me is more force of habit than anything else.
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13/12/2011
here is the test for the first part :
Using find is actually faster, but not so much.
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13/12/2011
For further reading I would also recommend the following slides from jQuery core team member Addy Osmani and for some bed time reading: jQuery Fundamentals
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13/12/2011
As seen on this jsperf testcase :
This is also way faster to use :
$(document.getElementById(“foo”));
than
$(”#foo”);
But really, is it really so important ? Most of the time, you just cache the result of the selector in a var once, and use it after this.
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13/12/2011
I’ve gotten a few questions on the Twitters about multiple classnames, and how $(”.class”).find(”.other”) compares with $(”.class .other”). I’ve knocked together a really quick jsperf for that one, though I’ve only tested it in Safari/OS X so far. Hit it in different browsers and let’s see what’s the haps!
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13/12/2011
Really great article. The biggest surprise for me was that element selectors perform so well.
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13/12/2011
I also strongly disagree with the last part. Not about its speed but about its security. Really, doing string concatenation should light a warning in your head ! And I keep seeing these advice on every website talking about jQuery !
Really, what is faster here is that you don’t access the node at each step of the loop. You can do this by adding elements to an “off-DOM” node. Yes, it will probably be slower than string concatenation, but still way faster than using an attached DOM node.
So instead of using string concatenation, use jQuery’s “attr” function on a unattached DOM, and it should be nearly as fast.
jsperf testcase to demonstrate this
(feel free to fiddle with the testcase as it doesn’t seem so reliable on my firefox right now)
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13/12/2011
Kinda shocking how slow jQuery actually makes inserting nodes into the DOM
jsperf.com/dom-insertion
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13/12/2011
Some nice tips here. I’m curious, what’s the difference between .on() and .live()? To me it seems they should both do the same thing so I don’t really get why .on() was added and what the potential differences between them are?
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13/12/2011
@Andreas: with jQuery 1.7 the .live() method has officially been deprecated. The .live() API docs page lists a number of reasons why.
Chiefly, it doesn’t perform as well as .on() (all events are attached to the document element), and doesn’t support chaining.
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13/12/2011
Thanks for all these tips! They are not valid for JQuery moreover, it also works for Mootools for example.
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13/12/2011
Julien: unless I’m reading it wrong, your test seems to show that appending to an off-DOM node is considerably slower than simply adding to the DOM directly in all browsers tested.
You can make it slightly faster by adding the src attribute when you create the img element ($(’<img>’, { ‘src’ : item });) rather than using a seperate attr() call, but it’s still slower than just appending straight to the DOM – pretty surprising, not what I would have expected.
Cheers!
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13/12/2011
Just to prove your first point on multiple element selector strings:
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13/12/2011
@Andi: I’m quite surprised too. Especially on Chrome.
It means that adding once as innerHTML is always faster than creating individual nodes.
But I’m really not satisfied by this as it makes the code exposed to bad characters in strings (read: code injection).
I’d like to see what happens with DOM document fragments…
Anyway, I dislike to micro-optimize because the measured performance can change in the next browser version… I do prefer to code secure and reasonably fast, than the contrary. If jQuery is your bottleneck, you’re doing something wrong (like putting your model in the DOM).
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13/12/2011
Would it be possible for jQuery to detect when an ID is the first bit of a selector string and silently-internally do a getElementById call followed by a .find with the remaining string? I can’t think of any problems that would rise from this.
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13/12/2011
I agree with ALEÅ ROUBÃÄŒEK, from what I’ve seen it’s better to use the .push/.join method than jQuery.each.
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13/12/2011
Nice write-up, Scott!
Just a few clarifications:
* `document.querySelectorAll(’:hidden’)` doesn’t actually work; in other words, supporting QSA doesn’t affect the performance of jQuery/Sizzle’s custom selectors. (The text makes it seem like it does.)
* The reason Opera scores so well in QS/QSA tests is because it caches the results. It would be tricky but interesting to create a performance test case that works around this by avoiding repeated selectors.
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13/12/2011
Really nice article Scott, and thanks for the intro to the .on() method in jQuery 1.7.
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13/12/2011
Excellent article with some good tips. Be careful with caching when using ajax. New nodes added to the page will not exist in the cached selector, you’ll have to re-cache. Or even better, use .live() – or .on() in v1.7 I believe.
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13/12/2011
Thanks for the clarifications, Mathias. :hidden was a bad example for me to use as the “title” for the pseudo-selectors section because as you correctly state, it doesn’t use qSA. Good call-out on that.
I was totally unaware of Opera’s caching, too – I actually can’t run Opera on my work computer because it can be used to torrent so I can’t do a lot of testing with it!
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13/12/2011
This article was a source of one excellent piece of information for me: that .live() had been replaced by on().
I’m surprised that .live() hasn’t had more exposure with the rise of media queries and responsive design: if your page has an element hidden at its initial size (or added to the DOM when the size changes), then jQuery can’t attach, say, a ‘click’ to that element, since it’s not in the tree. Change your page width, add the element back in and… no jQuery action on click.
Rather than $(‘a’).click(function() { … }); we use $(‘a’).live(‘click’, function(event) { … }); instead. It’s very powerful, but I was not aware that live() has been deprecated. Now I know better, and I will use
$(‘a’).on(‘click’, function(event) { … }); instead!
As for the performance issues, I must just not be doing enough with my scripts to tax the browsers. I develop in Safari, then Chrome, then Firefox. I test IE inside virtual machines with only 512Mb apiece and none of them have any performance problems. If I start to spot any, I’ll be back here to see what I can do…
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13/12/2011
@Matthew.. “Would it be possible for jQuery to detect when an ID is the first bit of a selector string and … do a getElementById call “
It does that. :)
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13/12/2011
Great article. I’m guilty of knowing jQuery and not Javascript myself (although I can’t stand either). I didn’t realize the find function was faster than a regular selector. :)
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13/12/2011
In regards to $(’.class .other’) versus $(’.class’).find(’.other’), the docs have this to say:
Internally, selector context is implemented with the .find() method, so $(‘span’, this) is equivalent to $(this).find(‘span’).
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13/12/2011
I ran some of the js perf tests using internet explorer 9.0.8 and in quite a few instances I was surprised to see it outperform chrome. The new JS engine is extremely strict as I discovered when trying to use processing.js
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14/12/2011
Nice article man, we may be reworking some of our app and the future way we do things because of this read and the new 1.7 on() support
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14/12/2011
One of the best articles I have read about jQuery so far. Pure awesomeness.
I really would love to see next part of it. More tips – better internet! :D
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14/12/2011
Great article. Thank you.
little performance question:
or
What would you choose?
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14/12/2011
Good question, Bertram. I’d (almost, see note below) always recommend using the latest version of the library. The addition of .on() is only one change of many since 1.4, there have been an absolute ton of additions and improvements over the last few releases.
Besides, once the libraries are minified and gzip’d the file size difference will only be (by my best estimate) about 6 or 7 kb.
The only time I’d be wary of going with the latest version is when updating the version of jQuery used in an existing project. Though updating is almost always painless, the chance of something breaking in your existing code when moving to a new version of jQuery is always present. When I’m using the Google Libraries API to load jQuery (which is almost every project) I will always specify the exact point version I’m loading rather than relying on it to just feed me the latest version. When a new version of the library gets rolled out I’ll switch to the updated version in a dev environment and make sure nothing’s broken before updating on live.
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14/12/2011
A great way to keep track of your cached jquery selectors (I think I picked this up from Alex Sexton) is to prefix the var names with a $. This makes it much easier to remember:
var $elem = $(”#foo”).find(”.bar”);
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14/12/2011
Great article and discussion. For my 2cents when I cache jquery objects I usually suffix with $ so I can remember that this is a jquery object (so “block$” instead of “block”). This is especially useful because I frequently grab the DOM node directly to work with it, so this avoids confusion about which thing I’m actually working on. I realize some people may dislike this for all the usual reason any Hungarian-ish notation is disliked, but in this case I find it very helpful.
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14/12/2011
Speaking of speed, using jQuery.each to iterate over an array is bloody slow.
Did one of these to test:
(also a lot of stuff to confirm my thoughts on where var’d stuff went)
That also brought me to trying iterating over a jQuery collection in array style:
I wonder how big an impact any of this speed stuff is going to make, though.
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14/12/2011
“The IE JavaScript engine moves at the speed of an advancing glacier compared to more modern browsers, so optimizing our code for performance takes on an even higher level of urgency.”
less than 9, yes I agree. But the engine in IE9, from what I’ve observed is better than any other browser, even those versions that have come along since IE9 was released.
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15/12/2011
I guess I must be missed something? I always use CSS selectors like this:
$(‘body > section div#content p’)…..
which must let jQuery know not to bother looking anywhere else other than the top lever section element, etc? Surely the same – if not better – than the ‘find’ options being discussed???
But great work!
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16/12/2011
Good question, Darren. Logically you’d think that’s exactly how it works, but it’s actually the opposite. Sizzle (the CSS selector engine built into jQuery) parses selectors from right to left so in your case, it’ll search out all paragraphs, then determine which ones are inside div#content, and so forth.
I knocked together a quick jsperf using your example and comparing it to a couple of different options using .find(), and .find() is significantly faster.
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16/12/2011
This is a great guide for those who don’t get Javascript but understand enough jQuery to make things happen. It’s nice to finally get your jQuery commands working after reading and rereading the docs. But, as we do with our HTML and CSS, there is some clean-up always required. Performance is huge. Eight seconds is all it takes before someone’s clicking off your page onto something more interesting. This article is so helpful and will be tucked away in my bookmarks for when I need it next. Thanks!
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16/12/2011
Thank you!!! This is gold, especially appreciate seperating religon from science with samples and data.
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16/12/2011
The best way to speed up jQuery is to not use it at all.
Don’t use jQuery because you are afraid (or maybe bored?) to write some simple JavaScript. Don’t use a 30KB framework in place of 10 lines of JavaScript. <em>Think</em> before coding and don’t cut corners just to cut corners — a little bit more work may be a better solution.
Now, don’t take me wrong — jQuery is a great framework and I love it. But I believe it is being overused.
You wouldn’t need to optimize your jQuery code if you used the framework only where necessary, right?
;-)
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17/12/2011
I had no clue about the on() method in v1.7. After seeing it in use here it definitely makes more sense to attach event handlers to parent elements as you did in your table example.
In your section on DOM manipulation, are you also implying that it’s faster to prepend/append strings as opposed to DOM nodes? I’ve heard the former is faster, but never actually done any speed tests myself.
I noticed one small typo. document.getElementsByTagname should be document.getElementsByTagName (capitalize the “n” in “Name”).
Excellent post!
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20/12/2011
Hey Jose, sorry for the late reply.
There are a ton of different methods for prepending/appending, and unfortunately the best answer to your question about performance is “it depends.” The point I was really trying to make was that, regardless of what kind of element you’re appending, it’s much more performant to append them all at once rather than appending one element in each iteration of the loop.
I read a fantastic article about this recently that I’m trying to dig up again, it did a bunch of performance testing of various ways of appending using loops (both native for loops and jQuery $.each) and by far the best way was pushing content into an array in each iteration and then using that array to build the appended content after the loop was finished. If I can find it again I’ll post it here. Thanks for the question!
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23/12/2011
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned jQuery’s selector context?
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05/01/2012
Context was mentioned in the very first comment and I addressed it (along with a number of other things) in a jsperf a few comments later (here). Or is there something more specific you wanted to discuss regarding it?
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14/01/2013
Very usefull tips !
An other “pro” when you use the .on(‘click’,‘selector’,function({}) is that if you dynamically add a some element in ‘selector’ scope, then it will automatically be caught by the click event and you will not have to stick it to the event :-)
Very usefull when you add new <li> items for example.
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13/12/2011
Great article – I know I’ve been guilty of more than one of these before.
Quick question on the first section – is $(”#id”).find(“p”) not equivalent to using the context attribute – $(“p”, “#id”)? They do the same, but I prefer the syntax of the second – no idea which is more performant, though!
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MININPUTS (minimum inputs) GARDENINGInsects and diseases are without doubt the biggest obstacles to successful productive gardening in Texas. Every year, literally millions of dollars worth of our state's garden and commercially-grown fruits and vegetables are lost due to the destructive feeding of insects and the rot and decay caused by diseases.
MANAGING GARDEN PESTS -- THE EASY WAY
(SOMETIMES ERRONEOUSLY CALLED "ORGANIC GARDENING"!)
Jerry Parsons, Roland Roberts, and Larry Stein
Texas Cooperative Extension
If you have been gardening for any length of time, chances are you have experienced serious, if not devastating, losses due to insects and diseases. Garden spots seem to be inhabited with every and any disease known to mankind -- plus a few others! You probably have experienced the feeling that thousands of insects have gathered in your back yard to gorge themselves on your garden vegetables. To make things worse, many insects seem to "come to the seed" -- how else could they know about your emerging bean seedlings and new tomato plants? And if it's not hungry insects, just about the time your garden appears to have a bright and productive future, mildews, rusts, and blights seem to show up overnight to ruin your chances for a good crop of garden-fresh vegetables.
Because of the abundance of insects and diseases, vegetable gardening can best be described as a real challenge. It's primarily a challenge because of our long growing season and relatively mild winter -- the very reasons vegetable gardening is so popular and potentially rewarding . The challenge is real but it can be overcome.
To many gardeners, the obvious way to meet this challenge is to have a good sprayer and the necessary pesticides to control commonly-occurring insects and diseases. Controlling pests with pesticides may indeed become necessary, and pesticides can be highly effective and completely safe if used properly. However, before resorting to pesticides, the first and most effective way to reduce losses caused by insects and diseases is prevention.
Prevention is really nothing more than common sense and sound, sensible gardening practices. Through continuous and methodical use of the following practices, many problems can be greatly reduced, if not completely overcome.
SMART PURCHASING. When purchasing seed and transplants, make absolutely certain you do not take problems home with you. Buy only seed produced for current gardening season that has been treated with fungicides to prevent seed rot and seedling diseases. When selecting transplants, look for those that appear healthy, have good color, and are free of holes in the leaves or spots/lesions on the stems and foliage, which could indicate the presence of insects or diseases.
USE RESISTANT VARIETIES. Always plant resistant, recommended varieties in your garden. Plant breeders have done an excellent job in recent years developing high-yield, top-quality varieties that have resistance to many common diseases. Resistance means slower disease development, allowing resistant plants to produce an acceptable yield before or without losing vigor to disease attack. Unfortunately, developing resistance to insects is much more difficult, but this too will one day be a reality. Check with your local county Extension office or reputable nurseryman for the best varieties to plant in your garden.
PROPER SOIL PREPARATION. Proper preparation of your garden soil will significantly help you prevent losses due to insects and disease. Working in liberal amounts organic matter will improve drainage of soils and help sandy soils hold moisture and nutrients. Organic matter increases the number and kind of microorganisms in the soil. Many of these microorganisms compete with disease agents for nourishment. In some cases, the best organic matter is obtained by turning under a green cover crop such as a small grain (wheat, oats, barley, rye) or a legume. When tilling or spading the soil, be on the lookout for grubworms, wireworms, and other soil insects. If found in high numbers application of a recommended soil insecticide prior to planting will prevent serious problems in the future. Summer cultivation will also prove helpful.
ADEQUATE FERTILIZATION. Test your garden soil to determine its pH and the proper amount of fertilizer to apply. Vegetables grown in soils that are too acidic or too alkaline will grow poorly or not at all, making them highly susceptible to problems. The right amount of nutrients in the soil will result in healthy, vigorous plants that are less affected by insects and diseases. However, use of too much fertilizer can result in rank-growing, highly succulent plants, and may encourage insect and disease problems.
CHANGES IN PLANTING TIME. This will often reduce plant damage or keep insect pests separated from susceptible stages of the host plant. Delayed planting until the soil is warm enough for corn and bean seeds to germinate quickly reduces seed maggot damage. Hot caps (milk cartons, paper sacks or similar materials placed over plants) used during the early season not only will preserve heat, but also will protect plants from damaging wind, hail and insects. In some situations a healthy transplant will overcome insect damage more easily than a small plant developing from seed in the field.
MECHANICAL CONTROL METHODS. Mechanical control methods usually are more practical for a small garden than for a large one. They can be used singly or in combination to obtain desired results.
Preventive devices often are easy to use, although their effectiveness varies. Such devices include: (1) paper collars around the stems of plants to prevent cutworm damage; (2) Grow-Web fabric for hot beds and cold frames to prevent insect egg-laying; (3) Grow-Web or mesh covers for small fruit trees, berry bushes, tomatoes and other plants to keep out large insects and birds.
Hand-picking of insects and insect egg masses insures quick and positive control. This method is especially effective with foliage-feeding insects such as bean beetles, potato beetles, hornworms and squash bugs.
There may be times when gardeners can use a fine stream of water under pressure to dislodge insects from plant stems and leaves -- a method often used to control spider mites. This also increases humidity around the leaves which helps bring spider mite infestations under control. The stream of water can physically remove some insects, especially aphids, and when dislodged they fail to return to the plant. Care should be taken to use water pressure only on sturdy plants to avoid plant damage.
Various types of traps are reportedly successful in reducing garden insect numbers. For example: (1) earwigs can be trapped in rolled up newspapers placed in the garden or other locations where these insects gather; (2) slugs and pillbugs can be trapped under boards placed on the ground; (3) a small pan placed flush with the soil and filled with stale beer will attract and kill slugs and snails; and (4) a two-quart container, half-filled with a 10 percent solution of molasses and water will attract and trap grasshoppers and certain beetles.
Blacklight traps are a reasonably good tool for monitoring insect species in a given area, but usually provide little protection for the garden. Light traps attract both harmful and beneficial insects that ordinarily would not be found in the area. These insects may not be caught in the traps, but may remain in the area, and the harmful ones may cause damage later. Also, some species such as wingless insects and those insects only active in the daytime are not caught in the traps. Consequently, the value of blacklight traps in the home garden is questionable. Where blacklights are used, it is recommended that they be placed 50 to 75 feet away from the area which is to be protected.
USE BIOLOGICAL CONTROL METHODS. Generally. biological control can be defined as the direct or indirect use of parasites, predators or pathogens (bacteria, viruses, fungi, protozoans) to hold pest insect populations at low levels to avoid economic losses. Biological control methods fall into three categories: (1) introduction of natural enemies which are not native to the area (these enemies must then establish and perpetuate themselves); (2) enlarging existing populations of natural enemies by collecting, rearing and releasing additional bio-control agents; and (3) conservation of beneficial organisms by such means as the judicious use of pesticides and the maintenance of alternate host insects so parasites and predators can continue to develop.
It is not yet possible to reliably predict how effective the introduction of a given parasite or predator will be. However, certain factors can indicate the potential value of a natural enemy. The effectiveness of a parasite or predator is usually related to: (1) its ability to find a host when host numbers are small; (2) its ability to survive in all places where the host insect lives; (3) its ability to use alternate hosts when primary hosts are in short supply, (4) its high reproductive ability to reproduce rapidly over a short period of time; and (5) its ability to adapt its life cycle with that of the host so that the desirable host stage is available for development.
Many beneficial organisms occur naturally in the garden, but often they are not numerous enough to control a pest before it inflicts severe damage. In fact parasites and predators appear to be most effective when a pest population has stabilized or is relatively low. Their influence on an increasing pest population is usually minimal since any increase in parasite and predator numbers depends on an even greater increase in pest numbers. Pathogens, however, seem to be most effective when pest populations are large. Consequently, the nature of the host insect-natural enemy relationship makes it impossible to have an insect-free garden and at the same time maintain sizable populations of beneficial insects.
Numerous bio-control agents are available. Following is a list of some of the more popular bio-control agents:
- Bacillus thuringiensisThis bacterial insecticide provides effective control of the larvae of several moths and butterflies. The bacterial spores are harmless to warm-blooded animals and beneficial insects. Bacillus thuringeinsis is available in three formulas : "I" for mosquitos and fungus knats, "K" for larvae of moths and butterflies; and San Diago for potato beetles. Some of the brand names of these Bacillus products are:
B.t.i. - Abbott; VectoBac 12AS-II, VectoBac AS
B.t. kurstakiAbbott - Dipel 2X, Dipel 2X WDG, Dipel SG, Dipel ES, Xentari , Dipel ES-NT, Dipel 2X WDG, Dipel 10G
B.t. kurstaki - Sandoz; Javelin WG, Thuricide 48 LV
- Bacillus popilliae - (milky disease bacteria)This bacterial insecticide controls grubs of Japanese beetles in the eastern U.S., and some testing has been done for control of white grubs (Phyllophaga spp. and Cotinis spp.) in Texas. It has not been effective against the principal white grub species in Texas.
- Nosema locustae- is a spore (Protozoan) used to control grasshoppers. The material is sprayed on the plants which grasshoppers ingest. The spores germinate inside the grasshopper, causing death. Control is extremely slow and homeowners may not be satisfied with results. Baits have proven more effective.
- Trichogramma waspAdult wasps are available from several sources. The tiny wasps attack the eggs of more than 200 pest species, including cutworms, armyworms, fruitworms and many moth and butterfly eggs deposited in orchards and field crops. Wasps should be released when the moths are first seen, but a sequence of releases throughout the season is preferable to a single, large release. Results will depend on the timing of the releases, selection of Trichogramma species, and placement of wasps near host egg masses.
- Green lacewings (Chrysopa)Eggs are sometimes available. The larvae, known as aphid lions, prey on many garden pests including aphids, spider mites, leafhoppers, thrips, moth eggs and small larvae. Adult lacewings feed on honeydew, nectar and pollen. Lacewings introduced into the garden must have a readily available supply of food or they will leave.
- Praying MantidEgg cases containing about 200 individual eggs are available from a number of sources. The mantid is a voracious predator. In addition, it is cannibalistic immediately after hatching, so few nymphs survive the first week of life. But the mantid is a poor searcher for food and usually waits for prey to come to it. This greatly influences the kinds of insects it captures and kills. Food preferences include grasshoppers, crickets, bees, wasps and flies.
- Lady beetlesAdult beetles are available from several sources. Aphids are the preferred hosts, but lady beetles will eat mealybugs, spider mites and certain other soft-bodied pests and eggs. They do not, however, kill grubs, caterpillars and other beetles. Lady beetles do feed on small larvae such as green loopers especially the ash gray lady beetle. Unless an ample supply of live aphids or other hosts are available at the release point, lady beetles will disperse and leave the area. In some cases, most of the beetles will leave the area regardless of the availability of food. Lady beetles can be encouraged to remain on a plant by using small meshed screen cages. Remove cages before they devour all of their food supply. In hot dry weather these beetles enter a nonactive (aestivation) state. Feeding and reproduction cease. Little control from lady beetles can be expected during this time.
One source of the above mentioned biological controls is:
1996 PRICE LIST
A-1 UNIQUE INSECT CONTROL
5504 Sperry Dr. Citrus Heights, CA 95621
(916) 961-7945 Fax (916) 967-7082
- LADYBUGS; Available all year:
-
- small (pint) $6.05
- medium (pint) $10.30
- large (quart) $15.40
- 1/2 gallon $27.50
- gallon $48.50
- PRAYING MANTIS EGG CASES: Available January - June
- 3 for $ 4.85
- 7 for $ 9.70
- 20 for $23.10
- FLY PARASITES: Available all year:
- 2,000 for $8.80
- 4,000 for $15.40
- 8,000 for $27.50
- LACEWING EGGS: Available all year
- 1,000 for $7.15
- 5,000 for $27.50
- TRICHOGRAMMA: Available all year
- 1 packet (5,000) for $2.90
- 3 packets (15,000) for $10.95
- 5 packets (25,000) for $17.95
- 10 packets (50,000) for $25.00
- 25 packets (125,000) for $28.85
- EARTHWORMS: Available all year
- small container for $13.75
- large container for $16.50
- BENEFICIAL NEMATODES (BioSafe 100); Available all year
- 1 for $26.40
NATURAL INSECTICIDES. Despite all efforts, at times non-insecticidal methods will fail to prevent excessive insect damage in the garden. At such times, the use of insecticides may be the only alternative left to save the crop. Insecticides chosen should have low toxicity for humans and other warm-blooded animals. They should be used only when needed and according to label directions. A better understanding of insecticides will enable you to use these materials more effectively, and to realize that they can be an aid without necessarily harming you or the environment.
When insect damage becomes great enough to warrant emergency measures, a decision must be made whether to use natural insecticides and various homemade botanical sprays or modern synthetic chemicals. However, some synthetic materials are actually less toxic and more efficient than some of the natural insecticides.
"Safe" and "natural" products also have "poisonous" ingredients such as the products listed below:
The bottleneck produced by the cumbersome the maze of bureaucratic gymnastics Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requires registrants to perform prevents most safe pesticides from receiving favorable treatment. Now they must go through the long, precarious amendment process.
Following is information about some natural insecticides: cyclonene to increase toxicity and produce longer residual action is used extensively in space sprays, household sprays, crops percent liquid concentrate of nicotine sulfate, which is diluted in water and applied as a spray. Dusts can irritate the skin and are not normally available for garden use. Nicotine is used primarily for piercing-sucking insects such as aphids, whiteflies, leafhoppers and thrips. Nicotine is more effective when applied during warm weather. It degrades quickly, so can be used on many food plants nearing harvest. It is registered for use on a wide range of vegetable and fruit crops. This product is becoming difficult to find.
- percent dust or as a spray. This product is becoming difficult to find.
- residues.
Gardeners have been using a spray mixture containing onions, garlic and pepper mixed together to control insects for many years. Recent scientific research indicates that the use of these materials has given erratic and in many cases ineffective. Garlic is beginning to show some good results. the underside of leaves where mites, whiteflies, aphids and insect eggs occur. If treatments are applied when an infestation first starts, insect numbers can be maintained at lower levels much more easily, and with smaller amounts of chemicals.
- Apply insecticides to all plant surfaces so that mph. Retreatment may be necessary after a rain.
- Apply insecticides only at recommended dosages: increased amounts can be dangerous, cause plant damage and leave harmful residues without improving insect control.
- The length of effective control insure that any residues will be within established tolerances at harvest time.
- Always read and follow mixing and application instructions on the insecticide label for safe and effective insect control.
CROP ROTATION. If your garden has enough space, avoid planting the same vegetables or members of the same vegetable family in the same location for at least two to three years. By rotating vegetables from one location in your garden to another, many soilborne insects and disease problems can be avoided.
Crop grouping for rotation to control soilborne diseases.
PROPER SPACING. Pay close attention to guidelines regarding proper spacing between rows and between plants in the row. Crowded growing conditions result in slow drying and poor air movement, and encourage disease development. Also, if pesticide treatments become necessary, crowded growing conditions make proper application and thorough coverage almost impossible to achieve.
VERTICAL GARDENING. Grow plants upright whenever possible, using cages, trellises, fences, and other types of props. This helps to prevent foliage and fruit from contacting the soil, thereby reducing losses due to soil-related pests. If pesticide use becomes necessary better control with fewer applications is possible with vertically-grown plants. Tomatoes, climbing beans and peas, and several members of the cucurbit family are some of the vegetables well suited to vertical gardening.
WEED CONTROL. Provide early and complete weed control in your garden by mulching, shallow cultivation, or hand removal. Weeds can be a source of inoculum for diseases, and often harbor insects that cause considerable damage by feeding or transmitting diseases. If practical, control weeds in the vicinity of your garden for the same reasons.
GARDEN SANITATION. Garden cleanup is an essential part of insect and disease prevention. During the growing soon, remove any odd-looking, stunted, or sickly plants as soon as possible. Chances are that such plants will never be productive, and may very well be infected with viruses, other diseases, and that will infect healthy plants in your garden. Judicious removal of foliage that appears damaged by diseases or insects will also help prevent spread. Any crop residue destruction practice that reduces the disease agent's ability to reproduce or over season can be included under sanitation. Examples are raking and burning (if not in a restricted area) diseased leaves and disposing of infected fruit. Dig up root knot nematode infected plants and remove as much of the root system as possible from the garden site. Root knot nematodes are harder to kill when protected by root tissue.
Do not pile diseased leaves, fruits and other plant-parts near the garden. Fungi, for instance, often produce thousands of spores in the reproductive process and these spores can be wind- blown great distances. Burn, bury or dispose of diseased plant tissue to prevent dispersal of the disease agent. In most cases, do not put diseased plant parts in a compost pile. This is especially true for nematode-infected plants. Although many disease organisms are destroyed by heat during composting, 100 percent kill is not normally obtained and many people are confused about and consequently do not compost but rather "rot" which does not destroy pathogens. Contaminated compost may spread disease organisms as the compost is being used. Make compost with grass clippings or shrub and tree leaves as the disease organisms on grass and leaves are not likely to affect garden plants.
SUMMER TILLING. If possible and practical, consider leaving part or all of your garden "fallow" or not planted during the summer. Tilling or spading the soil occasionally in the summer will expose nematodes, insects and their eggs to the hot, dry sun and high temperatures, effectively reducing their numbers.
HEAT TREATMENT. Heating small amounts of soil is practical for potting plants and growing seedling transplants. The soil should be moist but not saturated. Heat the soil at 180 F. for approximately 3 hours in a standard oven. Place an average-sized Irish potato in the middle or the soil to act as an indicator. When it is cooked, the soil should be sterile. Microwave ovens can be used for sterilizing small quantities. Using high power, heat the soil for 3 minutes. Do not overheat with either system. Excessive heating releases certain elements in the soil to toxic levels.
A new heating approach that has shown good results in Texas is solarization (soil pasteurization)..
CONTROL ROOT KNOT NEMATODE. No doubt many gardens have become infested by planting contaminated transplants or by bringing in topsoil harboring root knot nematodes. Taking steps to prevent this problem is just as important as implementing steps to control it once it is a problem. Where soils are already infested and a garden is first put into production, nematode levels generally are low. After several years of gardening and growing susceptible plants, nematode populations increase to the point that damage becomes noticeable. Control practices include summer fallowing, rotation, adding organic matter, planting trap crops, removing diseased plants and using resistant varieties. All these control measures are designed to reduce the soil's nematode population.
Benefits of summer fallowing have been discussed. Removing potential hosts and keeping the soil dry also reduces the nematode population as the nematode requires a moist environment for survival. Additional years of fallowing further reduce nematode populations.
Rotating with non-hosts or poor hosts of the root knot nematode is another means of reducing the population. Sweet corn is a poor host and is good to use in a rotation, especially in an area where root knot has done severe damage. Onions, garlic, asparagus and shallots also are poor hosts. Cool-season crops such as cabbage, Irish potatoes, greens (turnips), radishes and broccoli are less likely to suffer yield loss from root knot nematodes. Even though these are susceptible plants, they grow best in cooler temperatures that are not favorable for root knot nematode development.
High soil organic matter alone does not insure root knot nematode control. The higher the organic matter, however, the better the chance that antagonistic organisms will develop. Some soil fungi trap nematodes and use them as a food source. Some organic matter works better than others. Turning under a green manure crop such as small grains or legumes several weeks before planting is the best. Additional nitrogen may be necessary for adequate crop production because decay organisms in the soil use available nitrogen as they break down the green manure crop.
Sometimes people resort to home remedies to control nematodes such as planting marigolds or mixing sugar or lye into the soil. Of these three, only marigolds are effective in controlling nematode populations.
Marigolds secrete toxic compounds of an a-terthienyl type into the soil which kills nematodes but planting a few marigolds around annual plants in infested soil will NOT prevent infection. Marigolds also act as a trap crop. Nematodes enter their roots but are unable to complete their life cycle. Trapped nematodes die without reproducing.
French marigolds, Tagetes patula, are more effective in controlling root knot nematodes than the African marigold, Tagetes erecta, which also is referred to as the American, Big or Aztec marigold. However, the Mari-Mum American marigold will be somewhat effective while beautifying the fall garden site when planted in August. To be effective marigolds must be planted as a solid crop and grown for 90 days to begin secreting the three compounds of an a-terthienyl type to reduce the nematode population.
If marigolds are planted close together, they form a dense canopy which retards weed and grass development. Many weeds and grasses serve as hosts for root knot nematodes. If the weeds are not controlled, marigolds may be unable to suppress the nematode population.
Using marigolds in a manner other than July or August- planted Mari-Mums can invite disaster. For example, planting a few marigolds here and there among tomatoes encourages spider mites. The spider mite is one of the most difficult garden pests to control and can become as serious a problem as the nematodes. Some gardeners claim that spider mites can be controlled by thoroughly spraying infested plants with three tablespoons of liquid sea weed concentrate per gallon of water before populations are extreme. The spray knocks them off and the sea weed supposedly functions as a foliar feed as well.
Remove all nematode-infected plants from the garden as soon as possible after production ceases. Removing the root system eliminates many of the nematodes. To remove as much of the root system as possible, use a shovel rather than just pulling the plant up by the stem.
Root knot resistant vegetable varieties are not plentiful. Fortunately, progress is being made in the development of root knot resistant tomatoes. The best resistance is found in the hybrid varieties are more expensive than open pollinated seed, but the benefits in disease resistance alone are enough to justify buying them.
Diseases caused by root knot nematodes and other organisms can be prevented with non-chemical methods that either avoid the disease or suppress the disease agent. However, maximum control is only assured when using as many of these disease preventive practices as possible.
PROPER WATERING. When you water is much more important than how you apply water in your garden. Water when the soil is relatively dry an inch or two beneath the surface, not when plants wilt. Plants wilt for many reasons -- insects, diseases, excessive fertilization, as well as too much water! If possible, water in the morning to allow the foliage to dry before the onset of cooler nighttime temperatures. Also, avoid working in your garden when the foliage is wet, to help prevent the spread of diseases from one plant to another.
TIMELY HARVEST. Never allow over-mature produce to remain on your plants or nonproductive plants to remain in your garden. Harvest all vegetables as they mature. Pull and discard nonproductive plants, as they can serve as hosts for diseases and as breeding places for insects.
In addition to these guidelines, your "shadow" in the garden on a regular and timely basis is perhaps the best way to prevent insect and disease problems. Be observant and look for the beginning of possible problems. A hand lens may prove especially useful. Look for webbing, egg masses, individual insects, leaves with spots or lesions, and any other signs of insects and diseases. Remove and discard if found. Try to detect and remedy simple problems before they become serious problems. Gardeners should get an insect book to identify the "good" bugs versus the "bad" bugs which should be controlled. Educating yourself about the "good" and "evil" of garden pest control makes gardening even more enjoyable.
MINIMAL INPUTS POTENTIAL FRUIT & NUT CROPS Agarita Agarita has no serious pest or disease problems. Spring frosts can reduce production. Bird predation on the maturing berries can be significant.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very high.
Blackberry The most limiting factor to blackberry production is soil pH. Production drops off above pH 7.5 with serious plant growth problems at 8.0 and above. Proper pruning after harvest, elimination of weed growth and selective removal of diseased canes will minimize pest problems. Thrips and stink bugs can damage some fruit at harvest. Erect varieties have the best disease resistance.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Moderate to high
Blueberry Blueberries require a strict pH range from 4.5 to 5.2 for optimal growth and minimal nutritional problems. Since these soils are generally limited to East Texas, these plants can be grown in containers which have an amended soil. Good sanitation, complete weed control and proper irrigation and drainage are essential for good production. Salt, particularly sodium, is detrimental. There are some pests, but they usually do not have a significant impact. prompt removal of old canes tends to reduce pest problems.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Moderate to high.
Citrus Cold is naturally the limiting factor to citrus production. Adverse soil pH effects can be overcome with sour orange rootstock. Foot rot is easily precluded by high budding and proper planting in well-drained sites. Virus diseases have been excluded to date in Texas by quarantines against citrus plant materials from other areas. Sucking insects, mites, and scale can limit production.
Minimal Inputs Potential: High
Fig Closed-eye varieties, along with early harvest, eliminate the souring caused by the dried fruit beetle. Bird predation of maturing fruit can be extensive. Fig leaf rust can cause extensive defoliation in late summer, particularly in humid areas.
Minimal Inputs Potential: High to Very high.
Grape, Muscadine Muscadine grapes prefer acidic soils. There are few pests or diseases that are limiting, although black rot can cause crop damage.
Minimal Inputs Potential: High to Very high.
Grape, Mustang There are no major limiting problems to the production of this Texas native wild grape. Grape leaffolder can cause extensive defoliation in some seasons, but is rarely debilitating to the vine.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very high.
Grape, Varietal American types are fairly resistant to serious diseases; grape leaffolder can be damaging in some seasons.
Minimal Inputs Potential: High
Guava There are no limiting problems in adapted climates of South Texas.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very high.
Jujube There are no limiting pest or disease problems of jujube in Texas. Rootsprouts are extensive.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very high.
Mayhaw Mayhaw is subject to many of the same pests that attack other pome fruits, but none are considered seriously limiting to production. Both quince rust and hawthorne rust can be severe, but removal of alternate, evergreen hosts should reduce the problem.
Minimal Inputs Potential: High to very high.
Mulberry Bird predation of mature fruit and Cercospora leaf spot are the only serious problems affecting mulberry.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very high.
Pear Fire blight is a major limitation to susceptible varieties so only resistant varieties should be planted. Codling moth can be serious in North Texas, as can various scale insects, in some seasons.
Minimal Inputs potential: High.
Pecan, Native The same problems that affect improved pecan also affect native pecan although native pecan has generally better scab resistance and can obtain some zinc nutrition from the soil. Pecan weevil is probably the most damaging insect, but its cycle generally corresponds well with the alternate bearing tendencies of native pecan trees. There are several weevil free areas in Texas.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Moderate to high.
Persimmon Both native and Japanese persimmons are virtually free of pest and disease problems. Scale insects may pose occasional problems.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Very High.
Pomegranate There are essentially no limiting pests or diseases, although fruit spots can be serious in humid areas. Fruit spitting near maturity occurs because of poor water relations. Plants tolerate alkaline and somewhat saline soils quite well.
Minimal Inputs potential: Very high.
Strawberry A number of foliar diseases affect strawberry plants, but do not normally achieve great significance. Root diseases are avoided by the use of resistant varieties. Fruit rot, particularly gray mold, can be serious, but incidence is reduced by sanitation and wider plant spacing. Various insects, especially strawberry weevil, can become damaging in some seasons, but most are of only minor significance.
Minimal Inputs Potential: Moderate to high.
Each fruit's rating refers only to the relative ease of production using the least amount of inputs - and then only in those areas where the particular plant is adapted.
Hypertext markup by Gretchen Eagle and Dan Lineberger. |
This theme of humility was reinforced with the musical selection that followed: The choir sang the old Shaker hymn ....
219 comments:1 – 200 of 219 Newer› Newest»
How about those souvenir t-shirts? Nice touch, eh?
Happy birthday, by the way!
Humility would have involved less O time on the tube, a shorter speech, less cheering and adulation and someone else announcing that the lady opened her eyes for the first time right after Obama visited her.
I'm sorry, but the whole scene made me want to throw up.
What was the cheering for Janet Napolitano before and after she read? I didn't get it.
Gabby opened her eyes
announcing that the lady opened her eyes for the first time right after Obama visited her
*puke*
Obama's memorial to the victims was pretty good.
This conservative didn't and won't vote for Obama.
But this speech tonight: Homerun. He said what should be said by a President of the United States.
The President dipped his toe into Reagan Country tonight.
"Let us use this occassion to..."
Then there's a list of 4 things!
Why does Obama always make a fucking list... every time he speaks about anything!!!
It can't ever just be one thing, can it?!
It was a strange way for a President to kick off a re-election campaign, that's for sure.
I liked this. It's the first decent thing Obama has said or done. The emphasis was on the other people, and on God, and on how we should all strive to live more decent lives. I am afraid that I am beginning to like Obama. He did this perfectly. Good for him.
Chase, I would like to agree with you. I really would. But there was something creepy afoot. I tried to push that feeling out but I could not.
In response to David's comment on the previous thread, I thought Obama's eulogy may have been the best speech he has ever made. Certainly the best I have heard (although I usually don't listen when he talks).
Despite all the potential for turning this into a political rally (Napolitano, Holder, partisan stacking of the audience), the event was stirring, uplifting. We here in Tucson have been hurting badly since Saturday, we needed something like this, and I am very thankful it happened.
Chase, he hit a grand slam home run.
"announcing that the lady opened her eyes for the first time right after Obama visited her"
What's wrong with this.
It's great news!!!!
Westboro sent out a memo. "This is a sign from God, re DADT: God loves fags!!!!"
What did he say? I missed it. I was too busy taking unemployed people hostage and sipping a Slurpee.
Must be that bitter clinginess or something.
Well David, I'll pray for you then.
Thanks
Apostle Timothy 2:1-3
And when Paul wrote that the government of Rome was really corrupt.
So - When the President does something I believe is good and right, I support him in doing good and right things
Rialby said...
What was the cheering for Janet Napolitano before and after she read? I didn't get it.
Former Arizona governor, perhaps?
The Dems were using a Good Cop/Bad Cop game. Obama did an excellent Good Cop tonight. He sent the message that if the Tea Party/GOP will surcome, then the Good Cop will be kind to them,but if not, then the dogs of slander war will be loosed again by the Government Owned Media. That was a good recovery for the Dems. Point Obama who made that move well. He went from a line of "known blame of Limbaugh-Palin-Beck" to a line of "We will never know who is to blame". That was an escape from a trap the Dems were in for having a monster that turned out to be apolitical. Point Obama. Stay tuned.
The t-shirts and slogan were crass, but the speech was a good one. He spoke like a President, for once, instead of like a candidate for the Presidency.
What is wrong with his announcement that she opened her eyes? First of all, that's great news, and second, if she did it while he was there that would be a very uplifting and exciting moment that he should announce to everyone.
And Lincolntf: There will be plenty of time for him to run for re-election. Tonight was not about electoral politics. Can't you put that aside for one night, because he did. Jan Brewer got applause from the very same people who applauded Obama, so obviously Arizona is putting partisan politics aside for the evening.
I think Obama struck the right tone tonight.
Like the Nobel Prize speech, the President can surprise.
When it comes to head of state duties, where words are what matter, President Obama does a fine job.
It's a miracle, with the lady opening her eyes for the first time thing.
Christ Healing a Blind Man
If Obama does two more miracles, only one of which may be a card trick, he can be a saint.
John Lynch said...When it comes to head of state duties, where words are what matter, President Obama does a fine job.
The words are good. Now he needs to start working on the bowing part.
A number of people have said the cheering and all didn't feel much like a memorial, and that was the impression I got.
If Obama was interested in healing, he might have gotten a half hour on TV Saturday or Sunday and told everybody to cool it with the invective. Then, it might have meant a bit more. Now, with all the Lefty haters driven into retreat by the facts and their own conduct, it's a bit of an anticlimax.
We'll see how this plays out.
1jpb said...
"announcing that the lady opened her eyes for the first time right after Obama visited her"
What's wrong with this.
Maybe because it sounds as if The Messiah hath wrought another miracle.
Eli Blake said...
Did you watch the speech? It was a campaign rally, complete with t-shirt giveaways and lighting effects.
As for his actual speech, it was middling at best.
As a baseball games lasts nine innings, a "Grand Slam" doesn't mean you've won except in one very rare circumstance. So he gave a good speech in a nearly perfect setting, hardly proves anything.
Obama did the right thing.
Surprisingly, he's a very wooden speaker. He doesn't do emotional very well.
But, he did what needed to be done.
Try to forgive and forget.
I'd hate to be those poor folks who lost their 9 year old daughter.
@rh.. lol.
I didn't listen or watch, I only read the text, so perhaps that's why I missed the campaign-rally atmosphere some others are describing. But from reading the speech, I fully agree with Chase -- finally, the man seems to understand what it means to be the President of the United States.
What I heard of the speech was cringe-producing.
Every word screams moron.
Actually the rhetorical flaw is insulting the intelligence of your audience.
Nothing in it speaks to us because we are not in fact grieving the victims, and it's insane to pretend otherwise.
The place must have been packed with ringers.
It was a damn fine speech, and Obama carried himself as a president should. First time I actually thought of him as presidential.
On the other hand - Maybe I'm old fashioned, but cheering at memorial services is really, really tacky. You just don't act like that. The crowd did Obama a huge disservice by not behaving as such an occasion demands. You could see Obama had this WTF expression at how the crowd was acting.
Nothing in it speaks to us because we are not in fact grieving the victims, and it's insane to pretend otherwise.
Who is this "we"?
I'm surprised you cons who didn't like the speech aren't more satisfied.
This was a sermon sort of speech.
Y'all must have been waiting for BHO to slip up.
But, there were no chickens roosting or damning.
"What we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another... pointing fingers or assigning blame... " -Barack Obama, 1/12/2011
In those lines, Mr. Obama spoke well for all of we the people.
I agree with Kirby Olson's comment, above. President Obama was surprisingly presidential.
More power to him.
Here is a brief and humble didn't hear the speech, but the transcript doesn't read well, and was so full of meaningless air-pudding rhetoric that I can't imagine it sounded all that great. "Let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations" WTF?
That's not how people talk.
I thought it was a good speech. It was tough to delivery in front of a predominantly college student audience in a fairly liberal city. I appreciate his exhortation for us to hold up to the ideals of an optimistice 9 year girl newly excited about political service
Again being on a college campus created a problematic atmosphere. FWIW Krauthammer on Fox highly praised the speech.
I told my wife I thought they missed an opportunity by not having a rabbi there; after all, Gabby is Jewish.
For what it's worth, I've always thought Obama was a very poor public speaker and could never quite get this "golden orator" label that the press always used.
I only heard the part where he was talking about what Christina thought about America. It made me think of John Edwards channeling dead babies.
The reaction so far, for the most part, seems to be that the speech was okay/good. A few people don't like it, but they seem to be in the minority.
The main complaint, and what may overshadow the speech in many minds, is the campaign rally atmosphere complete with t-shirts and cheering. Whoever thought a college campus was a good idea for a memorial venue is an idiot.
Every time I clicked over, it was to hear cheering, as at a pep rally. So I didn't see much of the speech.
But I did read the text. And that was all the more reason NOT to watch it.
I really had no desire to listen to Obama give a finger-wagging lecture, which the text clearly was. In his use of "we," what the mouth-foaming libs of the last week will hear is "you conservatives." If he truly wanted to improve the national discourse, what he should have said is "I'M SORRY." Rather than use this accusatory "we," by which no Dem will include himself, if he wanted reconciliation, he should have lowered that upturned nose of his and specifically stated that it was wrong to smear and slander and accuse his political opponents of causing this.
I thought it was a very good speech, in spite of his advance men who packed the place with loutish college students sporting souvenir t-shirts.
Also quite touching was Michelle grasping the hand of GG's husband at "she opened her eyes." She was like a warm, loving First Lady.
I am pleased that my reaction is a distinct minority. Perhaps the harsh and partisan use of this event has been ended by Obama's presentation. We'll see.
"What we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another... pointing fingers or assigning blame... " -Barack Obama, 1/12/2011
President Obama was surprisingly presidential.
Do you really think that Obama was including himself in that "we"?
Rather than use this accusatory "we," by which no Dem will include himself, if he wanted reconciliation, he should have lowered that upturned nose of his and specifically stated that it was wrong to smear and slander and accuse his political opponents of causing this.
And when was President Obama guilty of doing that? (Chapter and verse, please.)
1jpb said...
I'm surprised you cons who didn't like the speech aren't more satisfied.
This was a sermon sort of speech.
Y'all must have been waiting for BHO to slip up.
Leave it to PB&J to take Obama's effort at being non-partisan and make it partisan.
c3 said...
Again being on a college campus created a problematic atmosphere. FWIW Krauthammer on Fox highly praised the speech.
Kraut has always been something of a cheerleader, but he's gotten to a point where he verging into the Evan Thomas "sort of God" arena. Nothing Obama does is wrong in his eyes anymore.
Why does Obama feel the need to inject himself into the situation.
Does it always have to be about him?
Everytime I try to listen to Obama's speeches my mind just wanders off. Nothing he says ever sticks with me, so I have to go back and read the remarks. When I do, I can never understand why he has this golden orator reputation. As David notes above with the Gettysburg Address, those words are so much more powerful, and do stick with you. There is almost a divine hand in the formulation.
I was appalled at the pep-rally atmosphere of this memorial. Perhaps I had the wrong expectation of what it was going to be. That inappropriateness of all the cheers and hollering is what will stick with me for this one.
"... there was something creepy afoot."
Maybe it was the purpose-designed logo at the funeral - supplied by the White House.
Maybe it was the souvenir T-shirts - are they available at CafePress?
Tchotche sales at a national tragedy don't seem exactly Reagan-esque. They seem Democrat-esque ... Wellstone-esque ... but then again Chase is nothing more than a Democrat Party employee who created a new Blogger profile tonight to help Barack Obama spin the deaths of a bunch of innocent people to help him boost his electoral prospects.
9-year-old Christine Green is spinning in her grave at the site of these Democrats descending like vultures over the dead bodies to collect political points.
The country is sick and it's rotting from the head down.
It needs a cure.
And what do you have in mind, America's Wang?
I did not see it, but on the whole it sounds less bad than I feared.
It made me think of John Edwards channeling dead babies.
It made me think of the Clintons when they wanted to pass their version of Healthcare.
"We are doing it for the children"
I tuned in early to see if you would live-blog the event (mostly just to see if you would comment on the teleprompter tennis-match) but I soon realized that you would not mock this on account of the solemnity of the occasion.
For my part, I watched the pagan beginning and then watched something else for a while. I tuned back in a bit later to see if any republicans would show up, and if they did (because I'm crass and still full of vitriol and partisanship) I wondered if would they be booed?
I fell asleep before Obama showed up. I'll have to read about it here.
I know that it is hard to do.
True giving tonight to mourning that 9 year-old girl and praying that her parents find the strength to just get through the night.
That's what we should have been doing all along.
Let it be for a while.
I feel so powerfully how the loss of that child must be tearing at her parents.
Try feeling it. That's what we missed.
The high point indeed was the nearly audible “thump -thump” of both axles going over [Paul] Krugman.
Did Obama really throw the hatemongers such as Krugman under the bus?
Yes, Lincoln, I did watch the speech.
I guess if you choose to spin everything in a political light, that's up to you. I didn't see it as political. If it were, what would Jan Brewer have been doing sharing the stage with (and being applauded by the same people) as Obama?
As for t-shirt giveaways, I didn't hear about that but I don't know that you can stop people from hawking whatever they want in the back and outside. Nobody at he front said anything about t-shirt giveaways.
Though, it is fair to ask: Would Jesus give a t-shirt to a naked man?
"Did Obama really throw the hatemongers such as Krugman under the bus?"
Paul-
didn't see it, can't say. Several members of the commentariat seem to think so, but they all tend to be on the rightish side of center. I haven't seen anybody on the left say that.
Agree with rhardin 100%. I freely admit the antipathy I've developed toward Obama over his speech & behavior in the past 2 years biases my reaction here. I'm sorry, but tonight I guess I am unable to rise magnanimously above my petty "partisanship" (unlike, it seems, most of you here).
Maybe I'd feel a tad more charitable if Obama's political need for an "Oklahoma City Moment" hadn't been telegraphed to us (by his own advocates in the MSM) for weeks now (long before an "opportunity" arose-- sorry, I mean, this horrible tragedy occurred). I'm sure a lot of strategic calculation over the past few days (with a close eye on the developing narrative in the MSM & reaction/ backlash from the country at large) went into crafting the content, message, and tone of this speech. Kudos, Obama! Tonight, you're a nation's hero and have proven to us all you're a good & moral & honorable man, for ably taking advantage of a tragedy (in the aftermath of which those on your side acted like scum) to stage a political rally, act "presidential" (i.e. he miraculously refrained from insulting his political opponents, for a change: what a rhetorical achievement!), give "good speech" (though I share rhardin's estimation), and receive the adulation due to you. Woohoo! You're so awesome, unlike that witch Palin, who of course made it all about her.
Beyond that, his words, and particularly his focus on nine-year-old Christina-Taylor Green’s appreciation for America, were laudable and affecting. It is now only left to his base to be sane, respectful, and honest. - Abe Greenwald
link
That’s the challenge now for Obama. The dems and their base need to take this seriously. How wonderful if they do! But the leftwing base is unhappy and likely to become more and more unhappy in the next two years. How will Obama inspire them “to strive to be better”?
The amazing PACO answerednmy question befoew I asked it
And I cannot type with my clumsy fingers
Eli, I don't know about Jesus, but
A Liberal would give a t-shirt to a naked man.
Well meaning, but you pay for it and still miss the target.
I can't imagine ever voting for Obama, but I thought he gave a great speech. It's important to praise when appropriate and Obama deserves it today. No doubt he'll stuff up soon enough and we can criticise him for that.
If a person only criticises, it demonstrates that he or she has stopped listening.
Eli Blake said...
They weren't being sold, they were being distributed by Obama's advance team to every one in line and in the audience.
Meanwhile in nuclear armed Pakistan, a pyschopath murdered a politician. Lawyers, clerics & even other politicians are showering him with flowers:
You need look no further to understand how Democrats are trying to spin this than to look at the profile statistics of half the commenters on this thread.
They were all created tonight, specifically to say the same spin (in so many words): "I wouldn't vote for Obama, but he hit a home run with this speech."
It's amazingly transparent. They can't even do spin correctly.
The Democrats are in full spin mode, using the dead bodies of a bunch of innocent victims - one of them a 9-11 baby - to boost their political fortunes.
Vultures.
AusDog:
SteveOrr:
Created tonight to change the subject.
You caught me, Florida. Now I gotta change my profile again.
Um, no. I will not be listening to one another more carefully and I will not be introspective and having a dose of humility. Because while I'm doing that you'll be formulating your next line of attack. Sorry. No more chances. Homey don't play dat. Take your own advice and I'll have mine, Mr Community Organizer, Mr. Get in their faces, Punch back twice as hard, They bring a knife we bring a gun. Your words, not mine. Own 'em.
I wouldn't know if it was a good speech or a bad one. I stopped listening three years ago.
Wanna hear something a little bit funny? Okay, goes like this: Apparently my whispers are not so whispery as I thought. Sunday was the last day for the Tutankhamun exhibition so I took Karen and her son to go through it. At the third gallery the visitor is faced with a monolithic statue of a figure some 25 or so feet tall elevated as if the legs were still intact. Karen asked, "Who is that?" I said, "Amenhotep IV" Karen goes, "Yeah, but who was he?" I said, "Tut's father. Changed his name to Ankhenaten. Changed the capital to a brand new city. Changed the art. Changed the religion of the whole nation. Some think him a genius, others think him a dumkopf, Worshiped a single god. Strangled all the other priesthoods, thus ruined the entire economy. Disrupted the Maat. Threw gold off the viewing platform. Devalued the national awards by awarding his friends with gold instead of awarding achievement. Pursued a single obsession. Shrank the empire due to non-interest. Enemies banged at the borders." Then I cupped my mouth and lowered my voice to lip-reading volume and whispered as quietly as possible directly into Karen's ear,"He was the Obama of his day." It was a crowd, but a quiet crowd. A man standing nearby Howled with laughter, breaking the spell of the gallery. He wasn't supposed to hear that.
Oh yeah, Happy Birthday, Mrs. Hostess Lady! Best party ever.
PaulV:
Created tonight to support Krugman.
These people think we're morons. That we can't detect their presence has descended on Ann's blog to spin for Barack Obama.
Did Obama really throw the hatemongers such as Krugman under the bus?
Do you think that Krugman will hear it that way? Or do you think (more likely) that he will feel vindicated and believe that Obama was talking about those on the right and say "yeah Rush Limbaugh, yeah Sean Hannity, yeah Sarah Palin, quit being so obnoxious and hateful"?
This conservative didn't and won't vote for Obama.
But this speech tonight: Homerun. He said what should be said by a President of the United States.
It sounds like that is the case. From what I've read, he did a good job. Thank you, Mr. President. Keep it up.
This, and Jonathan Alter repudiated by Rahm Emanuel. Not a bad day at all.
"Meanwhile in nuclear armed Pakistan, a pyschopath murdered a politician. Lawyers, clerics & even other politicians are showering him with flowers: "
I wonder what the Muslim terrorists would think about that weird blessing? Maybe they'd be so befuddled that they'd ignore it and move on the the Christians and the Jews.
Or, more likely, they'd do some sort of fatwa on that guy, and then move on to the regular targets.
"You caught me, Florida. Now I gotta change my profile again."
I said nothing about you, so you outed yourself.
But, Glenn Reynolds predicted this was the way it would go. He pointed out that Democrats were pining for an OKC moment, and exactly how they were talking about how they'd use to boost Obama.
As always, Glenn's foresight was correct.
It must be very embarrassing to be a Democrat tonight...
Obama at the 1:11 hour mark.
I "outed myself"!
Were you talking to Fred Phelps tonight?
I thought we were the big tent kind of folks here.
Where's Titus?
Most of the left softened the ground by making fools of themselves. He then made good use of the opportunity to rise above a very very low bar they set for him.
This does not change the fact that so many dug so deep, and I hope that has the legs it should. This episode once again has shown that the left and right in this country are not on the same level of decency, honesty or respect for our liberties. It's just an obvious fact that continues to be proven with every challenge we face.
If a person only criticizes, it demonstrates he has stopped listening.
I readily admit I have stopped listening to Obama.
I agree with the commenter who wrote Why does Obama feel the need to inject himself into the situation....that was my thought too. This was not a political crisis. A mentally disturbed man shot some people in Arizona. These things happen seemingly fairly regularly around the country. Remmber when the black man when on a shooting rampage a couple months ago when he got caught stealing beer at his workplace and was fired, and then justified it by saying his employer was a racist? Did Obama fly out there to make a speech at the memorial service for the people that man killed? Nope. So why now?
I can imagine his speechwriters huddling over the best angle to take - "I think he needs to go real humble, real magnanimous, real 'e pluribus unum' with this one." "Yeah I agree...let's have him talk about how we all need to get beyond partisanship. Might help him some with the Independents who are still angry about Obamacare."
And then the schmaltz about how the woman opened her eyes for the first time right after he visited her...gawd. The man has no shame. He truly is an egomaniac. I don't think he would even perceive how his continually making everything about himself is repulsive.
@Mary Beth
I couldn't put my finger on it, but you hit the nail on the head.
Sorry, but that gaucherie was painful to watch. Why was Michelle dressed as if she was going to the malt shop?
We'll see how long Obama's speech moderation lasts. I'd guess until Obamacare repeal hits the floor next week.
"I wonder what the Muslim terrorists would think about that weird blessing? Maybe they'd be so befuddled that they'd ignore it and move on the the Christians and the Jews."
I don't think you get the situation. The psychopath who murdered a politician was one of the terrorists. Or at least a sympathizer. He murdered the politician (that he was supposed to be guarding) because he didn't like his stance on a blasphemy law. Get it? He made himself the judge, jury and executioner and killed the guy he was tasked with protecting. And he's getting praised for it by way too many putatively normal people in Pakistan. When lawyers are cheering a man for murdering a government official because he disagreed with that official's political stance on a law, or to be more honest about it, his interpretation of Islam, then you have to worry about the whole future of that society and the nuclear weapons they possess.
what does this have to do with a nutcase loony killing and wounding a bunch of people, only one of whom he knew? And how come Barry didn't think this way when he stuck his nose in Arizona's attempt to control the invasion by illegal aliens?
Giffords has a long road ahead, as do the families of the dead. I'm sorry for them, and wish them well.
If he truly wanted to improve the national discourse, what he should have said is "I'M SORRY."
BINGO.
Florida: there are a few times in our lives when we are expected to be gracious, such as weddings and funerals. In this instance, a terrible, terrible tragedy happened and the funeral helps people get over the shock and horror of it all.
In this instance, Obama gave a non-political speech which spoke about the victims and the need for partisan fighters on both sides to go fight somewhere else.
I am amused that you know absolutely nothing about me, but feel the need to criticise me because I did not criticise Obama. If blind hatred is required to win your approval, I'll pass on the opportunity. If I have any responsibility at all, it is to behave with respect toward the people attending a funeral. I suggest that you find a different thread to pick a fight with someone. It's unbecoming here.
Did Obama really throw the hatemongers such as Krugman under the bus?
No, he just blew them off. He didn't criticize them, but he dismissed them out of hand and changed the subject.
Although an uncharitable reading of the speech does leave room for thinking rhetoric played a part in the shooting -- he said it wasn't a *simple* lack of civility. You could, I guess, spin that to mean "it was a lack of civility plus other factors". The rest of the speech doesn't fit with that reading though.
The biggest problem with this speech is how long it ran.
It totally screwed up the taping of "Live to Dance."
kcom,
I was well aware of that situation, before your comment.
In fact, I linked to the story yesterday, in the thread about Iran.
For the record, I completely agree w/ your disgust regarding that situation.
Florida said:
They were all created tonight, specifically to say the same spin (in so many words): "I wouldn't vote for Obama, but he hit a home run with this speech."
I said that. I said it here first. I meant it.
And - unlike you - I have commented here since Ann began this blog in 2004.
I feel sorry for your family and the people who you think are friends. They have to endure a bitter and irrational you. I will pray that someone in your life wakes you up one day - there's more to life than trolling. Or hating one's political opponents.
If he truly wanted to improve the national discourse, what he should have said is "I'M SORRY."
And if he did you would cry that it wasn't sincere enough. Nothing ever satisfies the Nagging Wife Party.
@Florida
Maybe it was the purpose-designed logo at the funeral - supplied by the White House.
And coordinated on Pelosi's web page.
."
Fucking phonies.
CNN had one of the folks who was shot on the air, after this thing tonight.
One of the family members was wearing one of those shirts.
What if that shirt is meaningful and comforting to a lot of these victims?
Even if they aren't. I'm not we need to hyperventilate.
I'm not sure that we need to hyperventilate.
Did they have any souvenir key chains?
I collect those.
"Though, it is fair to ask: Would Jesus give a t-shirt to a naked man?"
Would it be done solely to advertise his sermon?
"Actually the rhetorical flaw is insulting the intelligence of your audience."
rhhardin is exactly right about this. I cannot stand most contemporary oratory, written self-consciously as if it's designed to theoretically appeal to an abstract retarded American.
Read one of Churchill's better speeches and tell me that anyone writes and speaks with that sort of intelligence anymore.
This is victim-porn, designed and stage-managed to appeal to people who want to appear broken up about the whole thing.
announcing that the lady opened her eyes for the first time right after Obama visited her
"Mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm."
If Obama had called off his Democrat and LSM lapdogs and prevented them from wallowing in a blood libel since this terrible shooting, his words would've had more credibility. As it is, after Palin's vid today, all Obama could do was tell his dogs they failed to drum her out. Imagine, the president who called the Eagles about Michael Vick never asked Democrats to stop, never asked his media lapdogs to stop lying. Now that the polls say epic fail, he's yapping about not pointing fingers even as he uses Dupkin's term "vitriol." Nice going, schmuck.
Yes, that was the only good thing from this event, that Gabby opened her eyes.
"What we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another... pointing fingers or assigning blame... " -Barack Obama.
But, Meade, he remained silent while his party and their sycophantic media did, and he himself congratulated the sheriff on how he handled things. These words reek of sheer plain unvarnished hypocrisy.
Imagine, the president who called the Eagles about Michael Vick never asked Democrats to stop, never asked his media lapdogs to stop lying.
Now that MSNBC has unleashed an unprecedented assault on civility, I think it's safe to say that the aftermath of the Tucson attacks represents the Left's new Reichstag.
After all, the media and the Democrat Party have conspired -- like the Nazis who orchestrated the arson at the Reichstag -- to blame unwitting innocents for a crime with which they had absolutely no connection.
As I wrote on another blog, which was dismayed over the pep rally nature of the event, "those who have been most guilty of the mouth-foaming bile of the last several days will take Obama’s “we” to mean, not themselves, but their political opponents. That is, they will simply use it as a weapon against them."
And sure enough, the New York Times, just to name one which has engaged in the most disgusting of demonization, uses Obama’s speech to bash Sarah Palin, as does the NYT's Gail Collins, who uses Obama's call for greater civility to slime Palin, Republicans, the NRA.
If Obama had called off his Democrat and LSM lapdogs and prevented them from wallowing in a blood libel since this terrible shooting, his words would've had more credibility.
Just for the sake of civilized argument ...
Surely you can recall a case in which, during an election campaign, a pro-Republican PAC runs a commercial that the Democrats find highly objectionable, if not inflammatory. So the Democrats call upon the GOP candidate to "do the right thing" and either renounce the commercial, or order the PAC (which is supposed to be an independent entity) to withdraw the commercial.
And if the Republican says, "I can't do that, they don't work for me, and besides, everyone's entitled to their opinion," isn't this Republican being guilty of the same thing you're accusing President Obama of?
I avoided all coverage and news interpretations of this big speech. There's nothing big media can shove my way that I'm interested in hearing at this point. I'm done.
I watched the smiling, backslapping goombah friends of the sheriff mill about before the ceremony. I heard the cheers for Obama as he walked in. Obama could have shut that down but he didn't. And Nancy Pelosi could have told the folks seeking a picture pose with her to stuff it. But she can't. God, the whole event made me ashamed of my country. Americans have no class. These politicians are craven. The Democrats can't hire one point man to tell attendees that this is to be a solemn occasion? Not a networking party? I don't care what Obama says if he can't do basic crowd control that any stage performer knows. Ugghh....
Surely you can recall a case in which, during an election campaign, a pro-Republican PAC runs a commercial that the Democrats find highly objectionable, if not inflammatory.
If I could, then surely I would link TO it.
Just sayin'.
It's odd but conservatives seem more taken with this speech than the left, who pretty much don't seem to have paid attention.
Perhaps it's that the speech was such a dramatic departure from the shit that the left has been peddling since Saturday that it is more noticeable to the right.
Actually the Anchoress had an interesting take which seems to pretty accurately describe what I've seen via Twitter:
"Conservatives are here praising the president, and instead of joining in, you’re obsessing on Sarah Palin? Does that seem like normal, rational, healthy behavior or sick obsession?"
At least we don't have to be drenched in 'You caused it by being mean' a la Krugman. I liked the line 'You see, when a tragedy like this strikes, it is part of our nature to demand explanations – to try to impose some order on the chaos, and make sense out of that which seems senseless.' In a discussion of a case of PTSD, it was noted that the cop with the illness blamed himself for the death of his partner. A reconstruction of events indicated that there was nothing he could have done and the guilt was then thought psychologically to be preferable to the feeling of lack of control. Maybe the liberal commentariat has been feeling a loss of control and this incident just leads to their favorite generic recommendations: conservatives STFU or gun control.
"isn't this Republican being guilty of the same thing you're accusing President Obama of?"
No, he's not. Part of being president is to offer moral leadership. Plus, he's a paid government official. It's not the same job and doesn't have the same responsibilities as being a candidate does.
That's actually been one of Obama's problems over the last two years in my opinion. He never seemed to grasp that being president, and being presidential, is different than being a candidate. I didn't hear the speech tonight but I'm encouraged by reports that perhaps he has finally begun to grasp that fundamental difference.
Jesus, Bender, that NYT editorial is-- I cannot find the words. I'm too tired to try to my convey my disgust & incredulity. By now I shouldn't be surprised... and yet I can't help being shocked, every time. Unbelievable..
This, this is what we get from the NYT after the President's speech tonight. I'm so drained by the waves of disgust & indignation I've felt in the last few days-- and now this-- that my outrage has just become a kind of nauseous numbness.
Me: Surely you can recall a case in which, during an election campaign, a pro-Republican PAC runs a commercial that the Democrats find highly objectionable, if not inflammatory.
Reply: If I could, then surely I would link TO it.
Just sayin'.
Fair enough. Here's one specific example:
A Liberal would give a t-shirt to a naked man.
Sure would. He'd grab the nearest stranger, strip him of his shirt and give it to the naked dude. That, or pass a law making the police come and grab the shirt.
As for the speech - it was good, but a little long. The thump thump of the wheels over the invokers of the blood libel was nice, but instead of just scolding the people who engage in heated political rhetoric (as if that made any difference in the mind of this paranoid schizo)he should have mentioned that he himself has engaged in such rhetoric (because he sure as hell has), apologized, and promised to try to do better.
Humility city - I don't think he'd ever go there. Besides, apologizing is something that only Republicans are supposed to do. Particularly if they're not guilty of whatever it is they're supposed to apologize for.
This, this is what we get from the NYT after the President's speech tonight.
Why the Left Lost.
On a side note:
The President may have hurt the federal case against Loughner with the speech (see instapundit).
That said there are still plenty of state charges available.
Fair enough. Here's one specific example:.
::facepalm::
Now that I have seen the second half of the speech, I have to downgrade it to a B. He always has to go to the "we can be better" lecture. Grrr.
All in all, good speech tho.
Imagine, the president who called the Eagles about Michael Vick never asked Democrats to stop, never asked his media lapdogs to stop lying.
Uh, isn't torturing animals a whole hell of a lot worse than saying mean things about pundits and politicians?
Hell, these days I'd be tempted to say that saying mean things about animals is a whole hell of a lot worse than torturing pundits and politicians....
My feeble point being, are the leaders of the Democratic and Republican parties personally and ultimately responsible for anything and everything a Republican or Democrat says? (I take you feel this is a "special case" demanding special action by the president.)
Oh yes, the much better example I should have thought of earlier: Remember the "Willie Horton" ad that bedeviled Democrat Michael Dukakis in 1988? Was then-Vice President George H.W. Bush wrong to invoke Horton? Should he have denounced the ads and thrown Lee Atwater under the proverbial political bus?
Was then-Vice President George H.W. Bush wrong to invoke Horton? Should he have denounced the ads and thrown Lee Atwater under the proverbial political bus?
No he should have denounced Al Gore who was the first one to mention Willie Horton in the primary?
Or didn't you know that?
The Willie Horton key chains where cool.
They had little fuzzy Afros at the end of the key chain. Way cool.
(I take you feel this is a "special case" demanding special action by the president.)
The noisome machinery of an entire political party -- lubricated and fueled by said party's slaveringly eager handmaidens in the MSM -- laboring, non-stop, for the greater portion of a full week to libel an innocent U.S. citizen as being somehow responsible (it's all so murky, really) for six cold-blooded murders, and as many again attempts at same, would almost certainly fit any sane and rational individual's definition of something "demanding special action by the President," yes.
If it was important and "special" enough for him to make such a nakedly self-aggrandizing speech ("SHE OPENED HER EYES AT THE SOUND OF MY VOICE! HALLELUJAH!!!") in the first place -- and, evidently, the left as a whole devoutly believes that to be the case -- then: it was important and "special" enough for him to stop playing the Partisan Preacher for five frickin' minutes, and to show just that much simple, human decency to the victim of his trained attack dogs.
... and Trooper's already let the air out of that weary, long-discredited "Horton" meme, I notice.
No he should have denounced Al Gore who was the first one to mention Willie Horton in the primary?
Or didn't you know that?
As a matter of fact, I didn't. Nice to know President Bush 41 took his cues from former Vice President Gore.
Incidentally...
Obama speech undercuts federal charge for judge's murder
... nice going, President Bozo.
"As a matter of fact, I didn't. Nice to know President Bush 41 took his cues from former Vice President Gore."
Actually it just shows that anything you critize the Republicans for you can be sure the Democrats have already done.
Sharpen up sock puppet.
Before the speech was made, a poll was out indicating that 53% of Americans believed the liberals were just trying to make the conservatives look bad. A third of the poll respondents thought the nasty rhetoric had some impact. Doesn't it sound to you as though Liberals have lost more of the center with their accusatory rhetoric?
Did Obama's speech writers read the poll before the final draft?
Actually it just shows that anything you critize [sic] the Republicans for you can be sure the Democrats have already done.
Well, Billy started it!
It was a pitch in his wheelhouse. Of course, he delivered a good speech. That's his great skill. But give him credit because he said nothing vindictive or mean spirited. I saw it in a restaurant. The women present got all teary eyed and red nosed when he started talking about that little girl puddle jumping in heaven.......The audience response was not what you usually see in a memorial service. When the opening speaker started pointing magic feathers to the eastern door and going all Carlos Castenada, I feared for the worse. You don't want a Chuckles The Clown moment at a memorial for a little girl. But the service didn't slop over, and the President gave a dignified, humane address.
Today I saw an interview with the brain trauma specialist that is attending her. He said they have her in a drug induced coma and would be days before they could risk waking her to assess brain function and damage. So I was a little surprised when Obama said she opened her eyes. I'm sure her family is very relieved that she is making such progress.
A few years ago I worked with a young guy who had a horrific brain injury, a steel pipe flew off a truck on the freeway and impaled him. It took several years but he regained most functions 100%, he lost his left eye and some dexterity and grip with his right hand, but he retained his intellect and personality. They know so much more about treating brain injury nowadays that Giffords probably has the best chance one could have.
Let's not forget there are also other victims of the shooting in critical condition. They need our prayers and support as well.
So I was a little surprised when Obama said she opened her eyes.
Why? Goodness knows, he's lied before.
I didn;t watch it. Inadvertently flipped by it looking for SOMETHING else to watch.
But reading the comments -- were there any Republicans besides Brewer there? All I see mentioned is Obama, Napolitano (sp?), Pelosi, Holder (? <--- maybe Dubnik is getting tutored?) It sounds like it was a Dem Fest.
Incidentally...
Obama speech undercuts federal charge for judge's murder
... nice going, President Bozo.
Ah, yes. Reminds me of the time President Nixon publicly declared Charles Manson guilty of murder while Manson was on trial. Fortunately, Nixon's remarks did not result in a mistrial.
Ah, yes. Reminds me of the time President Nixon
Oh, well. That makes it all right, then.
Cripes. Save us from His true believers. ("Mmmmmm, mmmmmm, mmmmmm.")
Oh, well. That makes it all right, then.
There ya go!
"We can't turn on each other".
Just because we know how.
"We can't turn on each other".
Even when it's called for.
"We can't turn on each other".
Unless we're ready to talk...
Turkey, anyone?
Nothing in the Horton ad was untrue. Dukakis was soft on crime, and two people paid dearly for it.
The cheering put me off, too, but even worse, it looked like Obama picked up the Clinton wiggle, which I despised even more than the Obama's usual tennis match. Won't someone please tell him to pull his nose out of the air, or does he have to use bifocal contacts?
It's good to know that Obama can make someone in a coma open her eyes at the sound of his voice. Imagine what he might have done if he'd taken her hand and commanded her to rise up and walk.
JAL, I heard Sen. Kyl and McCain were there, but it was MSNBC, so you'd better check the videotape.
There ya go!
Ah. An automated randomized response program, then. My apologies for assuming you were a person.
@Kent
Reynolds opined "Should’ve run it by legal."
WTF is Holder? A potted plant?
It's good to know that Obama can make someone in a coma open her eyes at the sound of his voice.
The fact that so many leftards are manifestly willing to swallow such unreconstituted horseshit so willingly, and uncritically... [::shakes head, wordlessly::]
WTF is Holder? A potted plant?
Not the first time that question's been asked...
... nor, I fear, will it even remotely be the last.
An automated randomized response program, then. My apologies for assuming you were a person.
And my apologies for assuming you were a hooman bean.
(Morbidly curious to see how important it is for you to get the last word in.)
And once again, Althouse is firmly back in the Obama camp. My god professor are you THIS gullible?
"And once again, Althouse is firmly back in the Obama camp. My god professor are you THIS gullible?"
You read this post and what you took from it was that Althouse is back in the Obama camp? Seriously...
It was a good speech, Alex. Nothing inherently objectionable in it, really, even if the event itself was a little weird with the slogans and t-shirts and all.
Reminds me of the time President Nixon
Billy started it!
But seriously, I take your point that Obama poses as much a threat to the rule of law as Nixon did. And your other point that there is probably some objectionable act which has been done at some time in the past 150 years by a Republican but not by Obama.
Best comment thus far from the ongoing post-sermon thread, over at Reason:
"I've never seen a memorial service that had an official slogan and T-shirts printed with the slogan.
Man, that is so low-rent."
QFT.
I'm glad the crowd was vocal. People needed cheering up, and if that helps, so be it.
My impression was that for the first time tonight Obama actually looked like he deserved to have that seal on the podium as he spoke. I was impressed, and he gave a great speech. Of course I am sure that tomorrow he will go right back to being the douche that he has been for most of his time in office thus far.
Palin also had a very good speech, but she looked terrible when she delivered it. She looked pale and gaunt like she was unwell. I understand that she has had a lot of death threats. I hope she takes some time out for a breather before she gets back into things.
"On this solemn occasion, we remember those who were lost and pray for the wounded, while wearing our 100% cotton souvenir collectible T-shirts."
Harsh, yet inarguably spot-on.
@Mill."
And 95% of life is simply 'showing up'...so OK, I give 'The Won' a gold star for last nite.
It would have been a real 'home run' had he offered a mea culpa for all of the violent rhetoric that has escaped from his pie hole. Of course, with that not possible, he wasn't about to throw anyone else under the bus, either.
The tee shirts were a real nice touch. SEIU has taught him well.
remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together."
The Obamanoid's socialist, racist hopes 'n' dreams are completely disjoint from and incompatible with mine.
Must be that bitter clinginess or something.
Ah, life in the "nation of cowards".
The first thing I thought of as the Messiah began was the crass Wellstone memorial (which got a mention here about halfway up) and how it turned into a political rally. Major turn-off right from the git-go.
The second thing that occurred to me, and I said this to the spouse unit, was "He missed a Gettysburg address opportunity (which also got a mention above)." Lawdy, didn't he ramble?
I had seen a small part of Palin's video earlier, and it struck me as much more presidential in tone and substance than the real president's wanderings. If O'Bama wanted to make this about civility in discourse (which would have been off the mark to begin with), he could have done it from the Oval Office without the disgusting grandstanding; or he could incorporate it into his upcoming State of the Union, which Prez's have often used to invite individuals and remark about their uniquely American contributions to our national story.
Overall, I was disgusted by the event. I thought the choir doing Simple Gifts was effective, though. The organizers get points for that.
It's rather amazing how ordinary people can generate such a willingness to believe... a jive turkey.
I, too, didn't get the cheering. So, eventually, I lost interest and went back to my obvious wickedness of pointing a finger at somebody.
It's what I do - wickedly.
"What we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another."
Yes we can! Yes we can! If we're obnoxious enough, we can do anything!
I let it go yesterday, offering only condolences to the dead, the wounded, and their families.
By the light of the day after, I reconsider the event. Two cheers for Obama.
The event was
25% Wellstone funeral
25% Hollywood
25% Chicago
25% Just Right.
Don't nobody know what 'solemn' means no more?
I didn't watch. But I was walking my dog last night, and ran across a neighbor, also walking his dog, and he thought it was a home run, on par with the Gettysburg Address. My thought as I walked home after our encounter: Obama made a speech that short?
I'm glad to see that most of the commenters here think Obama did the right thing. The lefty trolls of course don't change their behavior. I am disappointed with those commenters who aren't giving the President any credit at all. He said what needed to be said to put this behind us. He didn't say everything I would've liked him to say, but in that speech he worked hard to be the President of all of us as he promised he would be.
Those of you who said he needed to "apologize" for things other people said and did--that's what the Left was doing to you all week.
...-that's what the Left was doing to you all week."
Please clarify.
It was a good speech, but it would have been better if Barry had issued this call for civility as soon as the left started making this all the fault of Palin and the right. Of course he didn't because he was sitting there seeing if it would stick and when it didn't he had to say something.
And even if he meant it, and I hope he did, the media is still attacking her, making it all about her, and pretty much ignoring Barry.
As Glenn Reynolds said, "She is living in their heads 24/7."
@Pogo:
You were expected to apologize for or disavow your "rhetoric" "inflaming" a mass murderer. Every single lefty troll who posted here this week made some variation on that theme. "You" was not limited to Sarah Palin or Sharron Angle, it was extended to the rank and file of conservatives and Tea Party.
Obama is not the one who made remarks like that, and he doesn't have to apologize for things other people said and did. He did explicitly disavow them, and I think that should be enough.
Justice Anthony Kennedy who oversees the Ninth Circuit and retired Justice Sandra Day O'Connor were seated in the front row next to the 20 year old University of Arizona hero intern, the Obama's, the Congrsswoman's astronaut husband, and Janet Napolitano. The Supreme Court Justices' presence was a great way to honor he fallen Judge Roll.
We can all think of times in our lives when doing the right things cost us dearly. But sometimes doing the right thing can benefit you. Unlike some us here, I am not gifted with the ability to see into the President's soul and know that he did the right thing out of political calculation, or if he did it because it was right. All I can see is that he did the right thing. I'm glad he did. This has been an ugly week, and Obama has helped to put an end to it. Imagine how much longer this could have gone on if he had chosen to gin up the rage.
Rep. Giffords "can open her eyes," said Dr. Rhee, Chief Trauma Surgeon at the University Medical Center, ON SUNDAY, 01/09/11.
Shame on each and every willing gull here, so desperately credulous as to gawp and gulp frantically at yet another Messianic, self-adoring Obama whopper, sans even so much as a moment's deliberation. ("SHE OPENED HER EYES AT THE SOUND OF MY VOICE! HALLELUJAH!!!")
Dolts. Rubes.
"Obama is not the one who made remarks like that"
It was not trolls but leaders of his own party who did do that. Indeed, "Politico.com quoted one veteran Democratic operative saying that the Obama White House should use the tragedy to score political points. "They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers," he said." "
He did implicitly disavow this method, but not until it was quite clear the political tactic to make this 'his OK bombing' (cf Chris Matthews) had -mostly-failed.
"I think that should be enough."
Well, it ain't. I gave him two cheers. He did good for the people in attendance. Minus one for being late to intervene on the blood libel, which I find disgusting.
The get-Palin tactic didn't work; it backfired. Thus the distancing, the hasty retreat to the foot of the high - nay, highest - moral ground.
The next time he wants to cop a plea for all the damage he's done, let'em do it in his own name - not on the grave of a 9-year-old.
Does anyone have the number on how many people actually watched this?
From everything I've seen the vast majority of those watching were the usual political junkies. The casual observers seemed to forget this was going on.
The third thing that occurred to me that I meant to mention above, was a comparison to his other most odious event, his rambling speech at West Point about the Afghan plan.
In that one, he spent 30 minutes buttering up the troops with platitudes, high praise for the best and brightest and most courageous and most noble; and the last 10 minutes selling them out if they can't get the job done in 18 months. It was exploitative and insincere.
Likewise last night, he did well in recognizing the heroic efforts of average citizens thrust into extraordinary circumstances; and then tainted their accomplishment by even linking the entire episode to the civility of political discourse, when it so clearly shouldn't be. In other words, by even acknowledging the current debate, he gives it legs while acting like he's trying to repudiate it. Exploitation again, most transparently.
Turned on the TV to see if O'Reilly had anyone interesting on, and saw right away it was the memorial service.
Turned it off.
What's the point?
A lot of people will say "the right thing" and then tomorrow the left will resume their attack on Palin, conservatives, talk radio, the second amendment et al. The President will say nothing to stop them or criticise them.
Obama will give a nice speech, then he'll wake up today and continue to push his leftist agenda. He continues to be my political enemy; I don't care if he gives "good speech."
@Pogo:
It was not trolls but leaders of his own party who did do that.
I agree, and they themselves need to be held responsible for what they themselves did.
You don't know why Obama stayed out of it. It may have been calculation, or it may be that he didn't agree, or some other reason.
Minus one for being late to intervene on the blood libel, which I find disgusting.
He was a lot quicker on the Cambridge cop and Kanye West, I agree, but there are big differences in this case, since people died. Maybe he took the time to get it right. Again, I can't see into his heart. Maybe you have that power, but I don't.
Just a friendly reminder: Obama didn't cut his political teeth attending a southern seminary, but in down-and-filthy-dirty Chicago. In bankrupt, corrupt Chicago - the home of community organizers /slash/ and a street-corner jive turkey.
As President and (one would hope) leader of his own party, he has many levers to pull by which to send messages.
If he was so inclined, he could have quickly:
1) told the NYTimes to STFU.
2) told the DNC to STFU.
3) gone on TV to quell the blood libel charge specifically, (not the implicit statement of his memorial speech), and quiet the storm.
"Again, I can't see into his heart. "
Nor can I. The man has hundreds of people smarter than me working for him. He got where he his by having political skills, knowing when to do things.
But he did nothing.
He said nothing.
One has to wonder why he did not intervene. I can only conclude that (a) it was a calculated political decision, to watch and see if the blood libel worked, or (b) he's incompetent.
Is there a (c)? My mind is limited.
One has to wonder why he did not intervene. I can only conclude that (a) it was a calculated political decision, to watch and see if the blood libel worked, or (b) he's incompetent.
Is there a (c)? My mind is limited.
C.): "Both."
You don't know why Obama stayed out of it. It may have been calculation, or it may be that he didn't agree, or some other reason.
We need a Daddy to come in and tell us what to do!
it was a calculated political decision, to watch and see if the blood libel
Oh, and just in case anyone was thinking about whinnying, re: Pogo's use of the term "blood libel" here:
"A couple of obvious thoughts. Paladino speaks of “perverts who target our children and seek to destroy their lives.” This is the gay equivalent of the medieval (and Islamist) blood-libel against Jews." (Andrew Sullivan)
".” (Frank Rich)
H/T NRO's Corner.
It's a little strange to find myself in the "disappointing" minority-- who find no reason whatsoever to lavish Obama with fulsome praise (heaped on him by most conservative commentators in the MSM, mawkishly & extravagantly), for such a platitudinous, tactical, convenient, expedient speech. Tom Maguire @ JustOneMinute & Jeff @ Protein Wisdom best express my views on it.
It's vintage O rhetoric (harking back to the empyrean tone of the campaign-- which, of course, proved to be a crock of shit). Transcending the "vitriol" & petty partisanship of us lesser mortals (while his accomplices in the MSM do all the dirty work-- do we not remember his campaign's MO?) My reaction to the speech this morning (even more than last night) is sooooooo cynical. The fact that the NYT, in that mind-boggling editorial, could draw the lessons it did from the speech (after what the NYT has printed in the past week), to me says it all.
How about those souvenir t-shirts?
T-shirt slogan: "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste."
Thanks to the conservatives looking beyond the political camp to find something good to say about President Obama's speech.
To the rest, you might want to step back and take a breater from the hate. T-shirts? Really? You're mad about t-shirts?
Why Ann used a tag "humiliation" is curious.
T-shirts with their nice and positive slogan were done by the university.
"Together We Thrive: Tucson & America"
Now, if you're threatened by that kind of message it speaks very poorly of you.
Obama gave a good speech, that is what he does. So far that is the only good thing he does.
He is still jamming socialist ObamaCare down our throats, still blocking oil drilling, still blocking nuclear power, still putting the coal industry out of business, still putting this nation $Trillions of dollar in debt, still running the Dept. of Justice on a racial basis and on and on....
But yeah, he gave a good speech and no....not,"more power to him".
... and, from last night's self-identified "party of civility":
Lawrence O’Donnell: Palin was blaming Giffords or something
Stay assy, lefties.
@Alpha Liberal:
Thanks to the conservatives looking beyond the political camp to find something good to say about President Obama's speech.
Die in a fire. After all your shrieking and feces-flinging the least you owe decent people is an apology.
That goes for garage as well.
Despite the un-memorial-like carnival atmosphere, I thought the President did a solid job of doing just what he's best at: giving a high-minded, though too long, come-together speech. And I applaud his avoidance of politics and call for understanding. (Which I realize, may have been a political calculation. Still.)
But as I remarked last night, the proof will come in the days to follow and the EVENTS to follow. Will he live by his own exhortations? Or was it all just so much sophistry, doomed to fall by the wayside at the first politically advantageous situation? I hope he meant it.
Now, if you're threatened by that kind of message it speaks very poorly of you.
Not half so poorly, thankfully, as your craven refusal to back up your own hysterically overheated accusations with even so much as a single, solitary confirming link speaks of you.
You're actually gonna buckle down and do that today, though... right?
The responses seem to be an example of hearing what you want. Obama doesn't want us to use this as an excuse to turn on one another. Left unsaid is that he and his allies are already completely against Americans who disagree with his vision of the future, hence his referring to them as "enemies". He doesn't need to use this tragedy to turn on his opponents, he's lived in that circumstance his entire adult life. All he is asking is for people not to fight back.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't see him or his allies doing anything to mitigate their animosity. His allies have already used this to turn on conservatives and his blase comments provide them cover by pretending it comes from both sides.
I also agree with the comments that found the speech empty, although I find this related to politicians rather than Obbama specifically. If you need a politician's speech to reconcile you to terrible events I think you're missing someone in your life. He isn't a pope or a king, he's a president.
Starting today, we'll know how much Obama took his own words to heart. Will he continue to advocate racial enmity, continue to encourage rage among his followers and continue to smear America as a closed, violent society?
We shall see.
David said...
"I'm sorry, but the whole scene made me want to throw up."
I'm sorry that the scene made you want to throw up. All the world loves a hater David..keep saying that.
rhhardin said...
"Every word screams moron.
The place must have been packed with ringers."
yeah right rh...20 thousand ringers all morons who like it.
if there was ever a reason for obama to simply say "i give up...there is no use trying" it would be thee.
Well, HD had already jettisoned the Dems new standard of civility.
But we expected that, because the Left doesn't really believe in the things the lecture the rest of us about.
I'm sure that, true to form, Obama will fall back to calling us racists, hostage takers, etc in no time.
Thought the speech was good and not divisive; a long perhaps, but thats a small nitick--I thought the carnival atmosphere not very conducive to a memorial service and tee shirts were in remarkable bad taste.
Crredit to Mr Obama for a decent speech.
AL, I assume you took the president's message and folded your tent on your baseless accusations. As Kent says, you have provided no proof for your wild, oft-repeated claims. An apology would be nice if you were man enough to give one. If not, your lack of response will still serve to reveal your character.
AlphaLibtard: T-shirts? Really? You're mad about t-shirts?
No, I'm with Paco: it went better than expected. As in: unlike the Wellstone funeral/pep-rally, Democrats didn't mount the coffin and scream "WE WILL WIN! WE WILL WIN!".
Such high standards...
"Sorry, I'm not moved when a president who needs an Oklahoma City Moment to kick off his re-election campaign inserts himself as the center of attention of an event that has nothing to do with him by giving a campaign-style speech to an audience of slogan-t-shirt-wearing, applauding idiots in a venue where concessions are being served."
-- commenter at Reason
Exactly, Mr. Fen. I could fosbury flop over that low bar in a drunken stupor. |
By Orhan Ayyuce
Something - something happened and I end up having to write him a little e-mail note on a personal matter, he responded five minutes later, I wrote him back ten minutes later, asking if he is interested in me interviewing him. Ten minutes later he wrote me back that he has read something I wrote and he liked it. In thirty minutes, the coffee hour was scheduled for two months later at Starbucks across his office in Santa Monica, where we are both kind of locals. If you have anything to resolve or get it done with Thom Mayne, be prepared to do it right there and right then.
Now, I am not a total stranger, as a SCI Arc student I know Thom from the late seventies when he was starting out both as a teacher and as a practicing architect honing his work. In addition, we shared the same industrial three-unit corrugated metal building for a couple of years.
Morphosis = leasers, my ex wife and I = sub leasers.
Theirs: 24/7 office, ours: 24/7 live-in studio space.
Stoner Avenue in West Los Angeles, circa; 1985-86.
That was a pretty close vantage point to a firm which became synonymous with highest recognizable credentials of this artful profession.
Since we were in the front division of the building, a lot of the young and talented Morphosis crew / friends used to stop by our "house" first and had wine and beer with us on a regular basis.
After that, I mostly lost track with them, everybody went their own ways and after those formative years of Morphosis, one band became many good bands, led by those people on Stoner Ave. office. Their central projects at the time were Kate Mantilini Restaurant with postmodern style grid markers layered over the facade, structural beams running wild, puncturing the stucco and steel sculptural sundial inside the space that never was as a sundial.
And, there was Hennessey + Ingall's Bookstore which they were working on or just completed. If you study some of the most recent Morphosis projects, you will see the seeds in that early work I have just sampled. I would go into their office middle of the night and chit-chat with my friends who were working on those projects, hand drafting the signature exploded axonometric drawings, building cardboard design models, producing working drawings and all the while making the transition to more of a deconstructivist phase of the firm.
During those years, Morphosis quickly raised in the ranks, only second to Frank O. Gehry amongst the soul freeing Los Angeles school, if it could be called that.
Their moving on the trajectory was partly due to its principals' energetic dispositions and appetite for architecture. It was also partly due to their academic positions in SCI-Arc, which allowed them to draft and retain a talented and experimental practice that survived on relatively small projects and fees.
The office was active all the time and it was not unusual to be visited by Tadao Ando, Peter Cook, Rem Koolhaas, Zaha Hadid and others. Not to mention close colleagues like Eric Owen Moss and Gehry, even though I personally did not encounter most of them, except Ando and Cook.
As it was arranged, I went to their office to get him and walk across the street to Starbucks and talk. This was not going to be an architectural theory discussion but just a light, conversing type of an interview in my mind.
I did not want to ask him lofty questions about how he designs. As far as I am concerned, that is between himself and his soul, his co-designers and their clients. Plus, there are many pages of material about that stuff written by critics, journalists, students and fellow architects.
I was loosely interested in how he manifests himself as a person, and hopefully to get an idea of what he is like nowadays. Through eye contact, I wanted to see if I could crack open the "bad boy/angst retaining master architect code" that is attributed to him.
I was also curious about what would happen between the prize-winning architect and me during an elongated coffee break.
Also, I was going to try to get him to say, he likes "my project" (later, on that one).
Yes, I had few small, selfish, hidden agendas to start with, as well...
Morphosis operates out of an approx. 2000 sq. ft. open office in which he has his own desk space behind the administrative area. If you enter the office, and if Thom is there working his hours, he would be the second person you see after Carla, who choreographs his minute-by-minute moves around the globe.
Enter Morphosis, turn right, and say hi to Thom Mayne, the Pritzker Prize winning architect.
When I arrived at 9 am, he was in the main space, talking with 3-4 architects, obviously about a collective design decision or something. By just superficially hearing it, I would say it was a democratic conversation.
It seems like, he receives just as many directives as he gives out, from his lean but highly trusted team of architects-my take.
Half of the architects who would work there seemed to be absent, perhaps traveling around the world, running hi-level projects and conducting presentations. Do not be fooled by relative calm at the modest Morphosis Headquarters. Just look at their current projects and the sheer size of their impact, both as buildings and as architectural benchmarks.
Several minutes after my arrival we walked out of the office. I was taping, and the sounds were mixed by traffic noise, some lost.
Small talk...
- "Great... We just got a nice hotel suite in Paris."
- "There is nothing like a nice hotel suite in Paris..."
- "Oh, right."
- "What about New York? Do you go there often?"
- "Yeah."
- "Wow, great cities to visit and build. But you are still here in Santa Monica?"
- "Yeah."
We crossed the street as two pedestrians on a mission with hurried footsteps, and made it to the counter after speed talking about;
That he is doing many competitions and he is on the short list of few,
That, he doesn't like to have a large office, in fact, he is not all that in favor of large offices of Zaha's and Wolf's (Wolf D. Prix of Coop Himmelb(l)au),
That, most of his projects take 5 years average on the make,
That, it is a good age to work on great projects, and how he likes to speed up the process to build more work while he can at the age of 63,
That, he is glad to have his sons not becoming architects (one is studying pre-medicine, the other interested in philosophy).
I tell him, how good it is for him to have a doctor son, especially with raising health insurance costs, and he concurs with the tone of someone who doesn't completely feel financially secure.
I order regular coffee and he orders nonfat latte. I insist and pay for them. I am glad to do so. I remember he is being a cool person to lease a studio from.
Cashier asks his name and his coffee cup has "Tom" written on it.
I ask,
OA- How do you feel like at the age of 63, getting all this high visibility large projects?
TM- It is weird that they just start to give you those projects around the age of 60-65 which you could have done around the age of 40-45.
OA- That was the age you were when we lived next to you around '85-'86 and I think you were just about to go to teach at Harvard around that time. Michele Saee, Eric Kahn, Martin Mervel, Brendan MacFarlane, and, Kiyokazu Arai who used to work for Morphosis at that time. Those guys were my friends,. I distinctly remember Kazu.
TM- Oh yeah Kazu... He was like the silent partner. He worked with us almost ten years. I learned a lot from him. He was a ferocious designer. He worked so fast, it was hard for us to keep up with him. He set up difficult standards to follow for everybody else in the office. He was a pure design facility, fast and highly talented.
OA- Kazu and I took the architectural license exams together and we both failed every one of them back in those days.
TM- Of course, of course, many decent architects cannot pass those things that easily. I took the design part four times myself and passed the oral exam on the third time...
OA- What is he (Kazu) doing now, do you know? I was his first friend at SCI Arc. He was very shy. His main problem was he could not speak English very well. He could have cared less about that. I often wondered about what goes through his mind, he always looked at you as if his mind were somewhere else.
TM- Yeah, he is the head of an architecture school in Osaka of which I am a board member.
Most people who worked for Morphosis ended up teaching somewhere. Small perk, let's just say.
Realizing, there is tons of stuff we could talk about in the past, but I wanted to change the subject and fast forward to present...
OA- I know you have been to Turkey a few times, what do you think of Istanbul?
TM- First I was there 6-7 years ago lecturing and I was back there last year again for the Pritzker ceremonies. It is just an incredible city. So haptic and sensual, you can touch it, as it is so visual with its hills and old buildings, minarets, domes... And, of course Hagia Sophia, it is more than a building, it is a landscape. And, the cisterns beneath. Ahhh, such a history.
He continued,
"Seems like, it is Istanbul, who will have the leadership role in terms of the East opening up to the West. However, politically, Turkey must resist the raise of nationalism and must resolve the situation in the eastern side of the country. Ottomans, they got it right the first time. They were much more advanced than the Habsburgs in the West. For centuries, they knew how to delegate autonomy. They understood the tribal structure of the region. After the first and second world wars, when British chopped up the area, they had no idea what they were doing. Things just do not quietly sit there. Anyway, Turks would be better off looking into the future, to the global economy, instead of being caught in the lowest dominator of uneducated nationalism."
OA- I agree. Turkey is a very sought after piece of land in terms of value. If one looks at it in terms of real estate, it is a prime real estate.
TM- Anyway, getting back to Istanbul, it is a phenomenal city, and of course it bridges Europe and Asia. The Bosporus itself is very amazing situation.
OA- It is an important city to build a landmark building. I wish your Phare Tower (or better), was there. Istanbul needs to break into architectural jet-set in terms of hi visibility. It needs an important current architectural piece to jump start the tradition, a newer paradigm.
TM- Yes... Who wouldn't want to build a pioneering building in Istanbul?
We go back to regional problems, Iraq, asymmetrical warfare, etc...I realize Thom Mayne loves talking about international politics and he is well informed on the subject. And, he is opinionated about most of the things he talks about. I am too, but we do not have that much time today.
He tells me; "Things are much more different these days. Things are rapidly changing. You have to realize, wars have changed, conflicts have changed, it is like the language, constantly changing. You have to be able to move...You have to move quickly to new situations, it requires agility."
OA- Like the architecture?
TM- Absolutely...Look at the generation before me, Kappe, Koenig, Gregory Ain and all those guys, look at 20 th. century, look at Corbusier, Kahn, Mies, Aalto and of course, *Corbu being the most clever (* he sneaks in that bit, a personal favorite obviously), it wasn't that long ago when architects developed that language and the rest worked on it most of their lives. Like they developed something and they spend all their lives producing some kind of variation on it. Some people can still do it, like Meier, I guess. However, as a production model that is no longer enough or valid.
OA- Thom, I want to thank you for creating a challenge for me to find more about your work, therefore running into lots of information and some interesting stuff. I've read and watched several interviews you gave, a few talks, such as; Pritzker, Charlie Rose, TED and Princeton lectures. I visited your web site, even checked out a couple of books by Christian de Duve, whom, you have mentioned to Charlie Rose, that you were fascinated with. To be honest with you, I am not a Thom Mayne scholar, I did not know all that much about the work other than I was around locally to see your beginnings, development and recent Caltrans building in downtown Los Angeles. In a few weeks, I have seen many questions which one could possibly ask you in an intelligent way and I saw your answers to them. I have learned all these things since we made a date a couple months ago.
Now, I want to ask you, what are "you" learning these days?
TM- (smiles) Actually,.
I am starting to look at buildings more strategically. I started to do that more with Eugene Court House. It is not the best building we have done but it did make us to look at things more from that strategic point of view. For me, it is a different way of thinking.
We are also doing this project, a high school in Corona, California in which I shifted the issue to energy. It is in desert, and we are going to do a zero carbon footprint building with complete solar power. The desert is the harshest environment to try to do that. And, guess what? The peak energy consumption is during the summer when the school is closed... I'll. Designing the single buildings are not the biggest issue. Of course we are going to design them (buildings), when they come in to the office, we are architects after all.
I am starting the projects with broader ideas where we can focus on prototypes and set new standards. I am going back to my earlier urban design interests, to the cities, where the two thirds of the world population are going to live in the near future.
I will give you a basic example about how we are looking at things these days;
I hold a cup in my class and say we are going to redesign this, and most students immediately start to work with the shape, but smaller group will ask questions like; how many of these cups are needed every year? How many times is each cup used? How many cubic yards they will take in the garbage dump after they are tossed out? How quickly they will decompose?
That is where I am moving into right now. I am more into that smaller group where they ask these questions, which is also my nature. I always ask questions. We all start as formal designers, we start asking questions, as to who we are as architects, but the questions are changing as our office culture is changing. Again, architecture is nothing more than how you articulate questions and questions you choose to address. Because you cannot address all the questions, it is really, about which ones you choose to address. People think of architecture as form and language, but it is not that at all. The ones are asking formal questions are doing architecture just at that level and they are not asking other questions, right?
OA- Yeah, it is somewhat limited at that level.
TM- Sure. So, the way I am learning and the way our office culture is changing, because our questions are changing.
You ask a question to Thom Mayne and you might get a three-page answer. What you have just read is an uninterrupted answer to my single question. Obviously, he is in constant motion. Asking questions about every project in which he is involved, interacting with answers, asking more questions and setting everything around him in continuous development, including his close circle of collaborators.
I really like that.
OA- You know, there is a lot of chatter these days about startreks, pardon me, about starchitects. The profession is getting tired of all this discriminating ranking system. People are disenchanted with it. What do you say?
TM- They should be disenchanted with it. It is ridiculous. I have nothing to do with it.
OA- Okay, then, say something bad about it. You are a bad boy, right? (big laugh).
TM- I have nothing to do with it. I don't like it. C'mon, you realize in the public realm, you have a limited control of what is said about you because you don't control your own media. They write whatever they want to write. Hey, the magazines have their own trajectory system and their own marketing bla bla. They need continual renewal and it seems like in American system, they rely on personalities rather than the work. I am really the unlikely suspect. I am kind of a shy person, kind of private person, and I like to say what I want to say. I am not that diplomatic.
OA- Likewise... I remember you coming into SCI-Arc student meetings and after students throwing profanities at you, leaving the meeting in disgust.
TM- Yeah. (Laughs). You know, I forgot his name.., umm, Inaba of Volume Magazine, he asked me to write something about "ambition." First I said yes, than I thought about it and said to myself, "I don't want to write about this." I get many questions like, "how can I become famous?" And I go, "oh dear, you don't have to worry about it, it won't happen. Do your work."
OA- That’s right, a lot of people forget the most important part; the work. Most people think fame is the only means to success.
TM- Like my mom said to my brother and I, "do your work first, don't worry about money, don't worry about anything else, just do your work." I was telling Jeff (Inaba), who came to interview me and I said, "It is kind of problematic that the young generation has to deal with much more real-politics and they are going to find their way through the land mines." The part of it is the absurdity of the expression of the personality which in itself is an autonomous territory, which has nothing to do with your work and nothing to do with architecture. You have to resist somehow, to capitalistic tendencies or something like that... They (fame seekers) should not worry about this that much. Just stay with architecture. I don't think this personality issue is useful to architecture...
Actors have huge problems with this fame issue. It is not pleasurable. It is hell. Hang out with somebody like Brad Pitt or somebody who is really famous, they are very restricted in public. They could not do what we are doing now, there would be two hundred people here already asking autographs and stuff.
OA- Speaking of Brad Pitt, what is he like with his interest in architecture and all that?
TM- He is like... Umm.., he is a character, who seems to use his position, and the power and the access it gives him, along with resources, to do something. Actually, actors get lots of hits. If they don't do anything, they get such a criticism of being gluttonous and when they start to do something, they are accused of being...
OA- If he were asking you for a job, would you hire him in your office?
TM- Nooo way... He is an actor for God's sake. He is not an architect... Hell no... He is an actor and an activist... He is one of those people who wants to use his resources to change the world for the better. I think it is all right...
OA- Yeah... Well, it is not my business. I am not that much interested in him, other than he is interested in architecture.
Pause...
OA- Do you know who Alain Robert is?
TM- No. Who is he?
OA- Alain Robert, also known as Spiderman. He climbs hi-rise buildings around the world. He climbed La Grande Arche in Paris, next to your future Phare Tower.
TM- Yes, yes I remember him.
OA- I bet you, he will try to climb Phare. Can he climb your building, given the curtain wall system you people are designing for it?
TM- Oh, absolutely. We got 3-D surface he will love it.
OA- If there are some problems, please do some design changes. Be nice to him. He is kind of my hero...Thanks in advance.
TM- ...I'll see what I can do but I don't see any problems...
OA- When is the Phare Tower is going to be finished? I really like that project.
TM- Construction starts next June. You know what the strange thing is? It is the first project we have done that everybody loves. Most of our other projects, people either love or hate them, but this one, everybody seems to love it.
OA- Well, to me, it is like a person that you can put your arm around and walk away.
TM- Really interesting that people see it that way...
OA- You asked me earlier about what I am doing with my work. I am designing this small house in Argentina for David Lamelas, the conceptual artist. It is near Buenos Aires. It is a summer home for David, who lives most of his year away from Argentina. Do you think you can give me a quick crit for it, while I have you here?
(At that point, I pull out from my pocket, unfold the picture of the model I made and the plan drawing beneath that I glued on a piece of paper, and put in front of him. I quickly explain the project.)
TM- Good job. Nice project.
OA- Thank you that's enough...
We both laugh and I push the stop button on the tape recorder.
I take three pictures of him and the interview is over. I give him a book by Orhan Pamuk called ISTANBUL: Memories and the City (I gave the same book to Michael Rotondi too, his ex partner, when I have interviewed him last February). He asks me to sign it.
We walk back to his office, talking about me and my background. I thank him for his time, and exit to parking lot.
From my car, I realize how developed the surrounding section of Santa Monica has become, complete with overbuilt corporate entertainment industry buildings donning cast stone ogee mouldings and subsequent traffic jams, making it difficult to turn left on Broadway Avenue but not entirely impossible for the willing.
6/22/07, Santa Monica
(For Daisy. Get well soon) ...
27 Comments
Great interview Ohran, thanks for that.
more later, but thanks orhan! that was fun.
that was great, orhan!
Awesome, Orhan. Clearly two great minds had a great time conversing.
Great, man! I had Kazu Arai for a seminar back at Seika University where he's teaching now. He had a lot of great stories about those formative years.
wow, love that!!
So great, love the writing here, really fresh, you and him are totally present in this thing, great job!
great orhan. much more of a conversation than an interview!!
Did I read that right, you scheduled the interview for two months out?
Thanks for doing this Orhan! I was fortunate to meet Mayne once and he is impressive - an extremely fast thinker, curious, and passionate of course. This all comes across in the interview, as well as being a fun read and so personal, as vado said.
Glad he's interested in the larger scale planning issues, it seems natural for Morphosis' work to go that direction. The high school that generates energy for the township sounds fascinating, one of those "Why the hell didn't anyone think of this yet?!" projects.
An overload of brainpower at that one little Starbuck's table...must have been hot in there!
thom mayne is the man, and orhan good shit...good interiew, no comment really necessary right...
you've touched on some great issues esp about the scaled/media perception of architects - particularly of the cultivated variety...good stuff
again always insightful AND enjoyable
Nice Sunday reading!!! Refreshing to read and learn nice personal anecdotes as well. Good job, Orhan.
Right on Orhan, very very well done. Thanks for asking on some of the more topical issues, those questions are always on everyone's mind but never get asked.
that's awesome that you gave him pamuk's memoir.
Ten minutes later he wrote me back that he has read something I wrote and he liked it
...Thom reads archinect?
HI THOM I CAN HAS JOB PLZ?
(reference)
a pleasure to read... I love how the conversation gives the personality of mayne and yourself and is expressed so well in the writing.
Orhan, you really have a distinctive way of thinking and make people think as well. I am sure Thom enjoyed your interview as much as we all did. Everytime you publish something , we sit back , put a cup of coffee and relax and enjoy the journey. BTW great project you are building in Argentina. Congradulations!! et us know about the finish product.
excellent interview....Thom is the bomb. that guys moves really really fast...
best thing on archinect in a while..
Orhan, I've always wondered how I would conduct an interview if given the chance. After finally finishing this, I think I'd like to take a lesson from you! Great job and thanks.
Orhan, Tebrikler!
"I’ll."
School as micro-power plant, exploiting latency for more than baseline? Of course. Very cool.
Terrific read Orhan, thanks.
I can't believe you're designing Lamelas' house! gerçekten çok seviyorum!
thanks for all the kind replies to the article. thanks archinect for publishing it. thanks arkitera.com for translating it to turkish and publish it simulteniously. thanks, tina, paul and alex, javier, john and, thanks to mr. thom mayne again, for taking a valuable hour from his busy schedule to meet with me and talk.
hey orhan, i remember attending a lecture mayne did at columbia. a student asked about the use of a dark material - some stone product i believe - on the west face of a building in cali, and thom dismissed him pretty harshly, then kenneth frampton intervened and called thom out, what happened next was an all-out slap-fest between the two. thom was pissed and the audience was entertained. what a night, although it seems building more has made him much more conversational and less confrontational.
great job. any tips? there are a few people i'd like to interview soon.
could I get a large double expresso and a shot of Thom Mayne please? (with cream on top)
awesome! thom always struck me as an intelligent architect. i've noticed some of his thoughts are really deep and often asks if people get what he means. good one. thanks.
I thought the most interesting thing is that Mayne dismisses a star as an architect saying he should stick to acting and there's little discussion of architecture in the whole piece. I don't care what he thinks about Iraq. (If you want to learn something new about Iraq, read Michael Ignatieff's piece in the NY Times Sunday magazine.) His interest in sustainable approaches to design is good but unremarkable. His buildings are anything but unremarkable.
I would be curious as to the relationship between plan and section in some of your projects...
1. The Eugene Courthouse
2. SF courthouse
3. The LA CalTRans building
How do they differ? How has his handling of buildings changed since the early days?
What about the detailing of the CalTrans windows?
How do keep the square foot costs down?
I would really like to know how he designs a building and why he designs it that way.
great interview. my soul liked it. lol great job! =)
agree with make, thom mayne to me is one of those very elusive & indecipherable architects.
total opposite of JP Ramus who pretty much lays everything on the table, in terms of his design approach, etc. so i would enjoy this type of interview of him, but not mayne.
i can't figure him out, what going on in his mind. i wish i can find out more of his design methodology, trajectory, in short how on earth he comes up with THOSE buildings.
Have seen his talks (online), but got nothing on the above. |
Millennial Snapshots
My ex-roomieAlan Henderson once passed along an idea he'd heard from a friend of his: imagine taking high-resolution satellite images of Earth every 1,000 years starting around the time of the first large-scale civilizations in the Near East. The pictures from 4000 BC through 1000 AD would show some interesting differences if you looked closely enough. But that 2000 AD picture would be something else.
Well, now there's a book out that sorta does that, at least by comparing 1000 AD with 2000. It's calledThe World Economy: A Millennial Perspective. From the ad between pp 174-5 of the Nov/Dec 2001 Foreign Affairs:
or Africa."
It's That Time of Year ...
... to check up on failed predictions.
And there's a whopper in the Nov/Dec 2001 issue of Foreign Affairs, promisingly -- and misleadingly -- headlined "9/11 and After," with the telling subhead "The Afghan Quagmire." As lots of other 'bloggers, especiallyGlenn Reynolds, have noted, the q-word was simply irresistible to certain media types, at least up until mid-November when the Taliban lost most of Afghanistan in a 72-hour period.
This time it's one Milton Bearden, who turns out to have been a CIA station chief in Pakistan from 1986-89. The real title of his article, which runs on pp 17-30, is "Afghanistan, Graveyard of Empires," and lest the implication be lost on anyone, on p 29 he comes right out and says "... arming and forming an alliance with Afghanistan's now-leaderless Northern Alliance ... to locate and neutralize the bin Ladin network and replace the Taliban regime. But that is not a wise course ... it is not likely to achieve either goal.."
Now, in the interest of fairness, there are also some very good things about Bearden's article; on p 20 he reminds us of how decisive was President Carter's response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, something most Americans have long since forgotten. And on p 24 he explodes the myth that bin Ladin, or indeed any Arab forces, were recruited by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.
Having said that, it seems to me that many people -- usually but not always liberal-arts types -- are utterly unprepared to predict, or even adequately comprehend, positive outcomes in modern, non-linear warfighting. Precision-guided munitions that hit their intended targets 98% of the time, as opposed to gravity bombs with a performance record of 1%, or bullets (0.01%), really do make a difference. And in another generation, even the bullets will be PGMs.
Thinking About the Unthinkable
Arcturus reader and all-round Renaissance guyBill Walker writes (in response to my "Cities and Commutes" post, which disappeared when Blogger got hacked): "And the lesser number of people within the same blast radius," by which he meant that nuking "sprawl" would do a whole lot less damage than nuking cities as they were 50-100 years ago. OK, techno-nerds, time to sharpen your metaphorical pencils.
The title of this post is that ofHerman Kahn's book, by which I mean the original from the early 1960s. I'm still on the Foreign Affairs kick; having been bold enough to critique a former CIA station chief, I will now question the wisdom of a former Secretary of Defense (1994-97), William J. Perry, author of the article "Preparing for the Next Attack," on pp 31-45 of the Nov/Dec 2001 edition.
Perry writes: "The most immediate danger is of a terrorist group delivering a nuclear bomb or biological weapon with a truck, cargo ship, airplane, or boat." (p 36) This may be the most immediate danger, but it is far from the greatest danger.
Without wishing to devalue anyone's sorrow or anger, I must state that any attack on a nation the size of the United States that kills only a few thousand people, including of course the attacks of 9/11, is a pinprick. An attack which killed tens of thousands would be a somewhat larger pinprick. In a country of 285 million people producing nearly $10 trillion a year of economic output, the death toll would need to reach well into six figures -- and be concentrated among key decision-makers and highly-sought-after skill sets -- to have a noticeable effect on our capabilities. EvenCantor Fitzgerald was ready for business by the time the markets reopened, two days after the 9/11 attacks.
No conventionally-delivered nuke or bioterror weapon could seriously hamper the functioning of American society. There is some question whether any biological attack, in particular, could result in a high death toll. Contrary to certainalarmist predictions, smallpox is not contagious prior to the symptomatic (not to say bedridden) phase of the disease, and is therefore almost never transmitted to more than 1 or 2 people by each victim. Epidemics in impoverished third-world communities were routinely contained with the technology available in the 1960s and '70s.
The obvious historical example is the Spanish flu (which should have been called the Kansas flu -- it started at Ft Riley), which killed half a million people in the US, several times our contemporaneous losses in WW I. No biological attack is remotely likely to kill even one-tenth that number, and this in a country whose population has nearly tripled since 1918. (Not to overlook the obvious, we now have the ability toprevent a repeat of the Spanish flu pandemic.)
And even a tactical nuclear weapon would, in most places, produce no higher a toll than 9/11. Turning to p 271, "Airblast Effects," ofArsenal: Understanding Weapons in the Nuclear Age, we find formulas for calculating overpressure, in particular:
PO = 14.7(Y/R3) + 12.8(Y/R3)1/2
PO is peak overpressure in psi; Y is weapon yield in megatons; and R is radius in nautical miles (x1.15 for statute miles). Note that the radius of blast effect scales as the cube root of weapon yield, so for a 1-megaton weapon the distances are exactly 10 times what they are for a 1-kiloton weapon. A few minutes of figuring establishes that the 5-psi overpressure radius for a 10-kiloton tac nuke is 0.489 nmi = 906 m = 2,970' = 9/16 of a statute mile.
The 5-psi overpressure radius describes the area within which most structures are destroyed; it is also the circle within which there are likely to be as many fatalities as there are outside the circle, and in an area of roughly uniform population density, the total number of fatalities will be close to the the total number of people inside the circle (without necessarily being those same people, you understand). So in this example, a terrorist attack using a 10-kT warhead would result in a devastated area of almost exactly 1 square mile. This seems formidable until we consultthis source, which states: "In 1990, 78 percent of Americans lived in metropolitan areas .... Between 1960 and 1990, the total land area in [US] metropolitan areas more than doubled, from 308,000 to 673,000 square miles." A quick check here to grab the right number and divide it by the area given above establishes that the average residential population density of American metro areas in 1990 was only 370 persons to the square mile! A randomly-placed atomic bomb in a populated area would thus kill far fewer people than the 9/11 attacks. A carefully-placed one, eg in a downtown area during working hours, might conceivably kill as many as 10,000 people, but there are only a relative handful of urban areas with the requisite density.
Contrast this with the premiere weapon aimed at us back in the bad old days, the SovietSS-18 mod 4 ICBM, which carried 10 550-kT hydrogen warheads, to be detonated about 6,500 feet above their targets (unless, of course, the targets were missile silos, in which case they would detonate as close to the surface as possible). Each bomb would have leveled 67 square miles and, weather permitting, set fires over an area of perhaps 100 square miles. One missile could thus devastate an area over 30 miles across and, even with poor aim, kill several hundred thousand people.
To truly wound the American economy and polity would require the destruction of an entire city, which can be done only by multiple independently-targeted thermonuclear warheads delivered by an intercontinental ballistic missile. And a killing wound is possible only by EMP.
But without an ABM system in place, we are wide open to just this possibility, and of course to the possibility of losing hundreds of thousands of people in an accidental strike on a city -- from one missile, not a full-blown nuclear exchange. ABM technology is not about stopping hundreds of missiles and leaving the rest of the world vulnerable to a decapitating first strike by the US. It is about keeping Americans from the grievous harm resulting from one missile.
So when Perry writes "..." (p 43) -- a fair description of "moderate" and Democrat opinion on the issue -- it is simply a massive non sequitur. A missile defense capable of intercepting a single accidentally launched ICBM before it incinerates an American city, or a single deliberately launched missile before it sends most of the country back to 1820, is a threat to no nation. It is, rather, an excellent insurance policy against the ghastliest of accidents and the deadliest imaginable act of terrorism.
The Best Bounce Message Ever
Or, at least, the one I'm most proud of. As most of you reading this are now aware, I just sent out my self-described e-mail etiquette-violating post-holiday "newsletter." An organization associated with two of the recipients responded with this, which as Dave Barry says, I am not making up:
"(Organization) automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter (i.e. material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is considered inappropriate for the business environment and will not be forwarded to the intended recipient. If you believe that your e-mail was stopped by mistake, please forward your mail to (address) for review and final disposition."
I guess cat poop "is considered inappropriate for the business environment" at (Organization). Funny, I think it's inappropriate for the home environment, which is why I went to so much trouble to get rid of it. What, I wonder, does (Organization) do with its cat poop? Try to bounce it in software? Hah!
Xmas, Cont'd
OK, this is another "day in the life" post, so the techie brigade can skip it. ;)
First, a couple of serendipitous events I forgot to mention earlier: while in Florida, we visitedGuana River State Park, where my mother and She Who Must Be Obeyed went shelling and I laid around looking at things through binoculars. What to my wondering eyes should appear but a pair of porpoises, frolicking proverbially just beyond the surf. They were the first ones I'd ever seen in the wild. The other serendipitous event consisted of picking stuff out of the neighbors' trash in a walk with my mom on Boxing Day (12/26). I'm getting some insight into where my ability to ignore social conventions comes from.
This morning we did Christmas in the Manifold household. You may infer what you will from our respective gifts: Leigh Ann got a Dremel tool, a jig saw, etc, while I got software and a desk lamp. Our "children" were not excluded -- they were fed special canned food and given small toys as stocking stuffers, and the feline dependents got another window perch, a fleece-covered plastic framework which clamps to a window sill. Very popular, especially in southward-facing windows on cold, sunny winter days.
The Movie
A few days ago Iwrote something about the book. Now for the movie.
I've only seen it once, but plan to see it at least once more. The good news is that it's decently executed, a solid three-star film that leaves the moral seriousness of the book fundamentally intact while being approachable for those who haven't read LOTR. The production values are excellent.
There are some unfortunate omissions, the greatest of which, to my mind, was the veneration of Galadriel by Gimli; the scenes in Lothlorien completely omit their dialogue and the healing of a historic distrust. In the odd (but not necessarily bad, and probably inevitable) category are the brevity of scenes involving travel and complex dialog, and the tremendous dilation of fight scenes. The first episode of combat in Moria, as it reads in the book, would appear to last only a few seconds; in the movie it goes on for several minutes. Entire chapters of travel, meanwhile, are reduced to a minute or less on film.
On the unambiguously positive side, the movie is visually stunning, with entirely appropriate casting, costuming, and set design. It seemed to me that this extended as far as making Liv Tyler, who plays Arwen, look like -- at least in her first scene -- Edith Bratt, the woman with whom Tolkien fell in love while still in his teens and married several years later; she became the model for Luthien Tinùviël in the Silmarillion, who was in turn the model for Arwen Undòmiël. The acting is uniformly competent. The special effects and backdrops are very well done; Isengard, Minas Tirith, and the pillars of the Argonath all appeared to have been designed with careful attention to the book. Perhaps best of all, the intrinsic danger of using the Ring is repeatedly emphasized, and the bad guys are effectively portrayed as "the peril of the world."
And the final scene, showing Frodo and Sam looking out over the jagged ranges of the Emyn Muil, is as perfectly composed as one can imagine. In that frame is captured not only the physical difficulties, but also the spiritual struggle which lies ahead.
What we may look forward to in The Two Towers, then, is tremendous battle scenes when Eomer's Rohirrim surround the orcs, in the battle of Helm's Deep, in the destruction of Isengard by the Ents, and in the ambush in Ithilien by Faramir's patrol. The journey of Frodo and Sam is likely to occupy only a small portion of the movie. And in The Return of the King, the battle of the Pelennor Fields is likely to take up much of the running time.
Published!
Myletter to the editor on cloning ran today.
Xmas Brush With Greatness (?)
We attended Mass on Sunday morning the 23rd withmy sister and family here, then a Christmas Eve candlelight service with my mother here, where the pastor is the father of Limp Bizkit guitarist Wes Borland. This would probably mean a lot more to me if I were 10 or 20 years younger.
Holiday Status and Administrivia
I'm posting this from my mother's house in Jacksonville, using her PC -- and therefore also using her AOL account, so now I know what those of you on AOL are experiencing when you read A Voyage To Arcturus. Not as bad as I'd feared, but not all that I would wish, either. In particular, some of the hyperlinks aren't obvious, so you might try pointing at anything underlined, bolded, or in italics. Not all such punctuation implies a link, but most of it does.
Otherwise, we're hanging out with my mom, sister, brother-in-law, and nephews. Returning to KC late Wednesday the 26th. Don't expect to see a lot of new stuff here before Thursday.
The Holly and the Ivy
Or, a rather unconventional Christmas message.
Actually, since even the phrase "unconventional Christmas message" is practically a cliché, I should perhaps mention a few things that this post is not: an ironic retelling of the Gospel story of Christmas, a snide attack on retailing, or a completely secularized homily about how we should all be nice to each other.
It is sort of about paganism, though. A couple-three weeks back, in the course of using a rental truck to bring a few thousand pounds of fill dirt over to the house and fill in some holes we'd dug -- it's a long story involving a damp basement, now thankfully waterproofed --She Who Must Be Obeyed suggested that we seize the opportunity to use the truck to get a Christmas tree. So off we went to Warren's Christmas Tree Farm, hereafter WCTF,which is quite an operation.
WCTF is located on the exurban fringe of the KC area, on the Kansas side, about 25 miles south-southwest of downtown KC MO. Large new houses on half-acre lots are popping up in the neighborhood, but it still has very much a rural midwestern feel: rolling hills, open pasture and cropland bordered by windbreaks of mature trees, and patches of forest on hilltops and along creek beds.
There were at least a hundred vehicles parked in a field when we got there, nearly every one of which had brought an entire family; people swarming around the various spots at which one selects an already-cut tree, or picks out a still-growing tree to be cut, or picks up one's prepared order -- trees are trimmed slightly and wrapped in plastic mesh for easy transport. The cashier is in a barn, along with urns of hot chocolate and wassail, prodigious quantities of greenery, a straw-covered floor, various knick-knacks for sale, and a live choral group.
This is the point at which some people would go into rant mode about how crass it all was. But it didn't feel that way to me; it simply felt charming, and rather innocent. Everyone seemed to be having a genuinely good time, including the employees. The hordes of children were excited but not obnoxious. And from a "process standpoint," as we say on my day job, it was all very well designed and executed: maximum throughput with minimum hassle.
I also noticed that the only overtly Christian imagery anywhere at WCTF was the fish symbols on the backs of a lot of the customers' cars. Everything else could have been lifted straight out of northwestern Europe prior to evangelization, ie 300-900 AD depending on location, ranging from France to Scandinavia. It just so happened that while we were waiting in line in the barn to pay for our tree, the choral group was singingThe Holly and the Ivy, a scantily Christianized hymn of the nature religion of my distant ancestors.
Of course, this is not a unique perception -- plenty of people in this part of the country avoid explicit observance of Christmas precisely because of things like The Holly and the Ivy, and the New Testament gives them an out in Romans 14:5-6a: "One man prefers one day to another; another man approves of every day. Let each one be convinced in his own mind; for he who favors a day favors it for the Lord." (Lattimore translation)
This isn't the place for a sermon on Romans 14, though I'll probably write one eventually; the relevant point this time is that I have once again surprised myself by joining the mainstream. A filtered paganism, blended into American Christianity, holds no threat for me; if anything, it's rather sweet. I am fortunate in many ways, not least in the history of my forebears; the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons was relatively voluntary, and the disestablishment of the Church in America kept it from becoming the ossified monopoly it often appears to have become elsewhere in the world. My own experience has been one of deliverance from bitterness and alienation rather than descent into them. So I can think of this season as a time to remember a gift from beyond the world, the beginning of a victory that makes every other victory possible.
Alternate History
Other than thegrim scenario I came up with the other day, there hasn't been any alternate history in here yet. So it is with great pleasure that I pass along the following, from my ex-roomie, Alan K. Henderson, speculating on a Pat Buchanan-ish America eschewing war in the Pacific, circa 1941:
"What if we left Japan alone? Instead of eastern Asia being dominated by two evil Marxist empires that have a long history of animosity toward each other (China, Russia), that region would have been dominated by one evil Marxist and one evil feudalistic/fascist empire that have a long history of animosity toward each other. We would not have militarily fought the Cold War in Vietnam or Korea (since they would have been Japanese provinces, assuming the USSR would not have seized the latter in a later war), but our troops may have been lured elsewhere. Without the Vietnam experience, might our leaders have been more eager to send massive troop deployments to fight Communism in Angola or Ethiopia? And where would the first nuclear bomb have been dropped -- and by whom?"
Since I doubt that Alan and I are the onlyHarry Turtledove fans around here, feel free to send in your own ideas.
Do I Know How to Call 'em, or What?
The title of this post is a copy of Glenn Reynolds' frequent (and justified) crowing over having correctly predicted a news story. I'm unlikely to ever matchInstaPundit, but I inadvertently anticipated one of today's lead stories.
Behind the bland headlineCircuitry Advancement Wins Award is the #1 science story of the year.
Of course it was nanotech. Future generations will wonder why we didn't drop everything else for an all-out push to develop molecular manufacturing and cell repair. But we'll get there soon enough anyway.
For further reading: Yahoo! maintains aNanotechnology Full Coverage section, which points to, among many other things, this astounding development.
Great Follow-Up
Regardinga certain earlier entry, the Emir of McMullenstan answers "yes," and asks the elegantly simple follow-up question: Why is America good?
Send your answers in to the Emir, and don't forget to copy theAnarch of the Manifold Autonomous Zone to become eligible to win a swell prize!
(You may also send suggestions regarding the swell prize, which must be inexpensive enough not to arouse the wrath ofShe Who Must Be Obeyed.)
The Sky Tonight
There's a really nice conjunction of the Moon and Mars; it's worth stepping outside to take a look at -- weather permitting. The bright thing rising in the east is Jupiter. More infohere.
Example Nanotech Story
Graze (midwesterners don't surf) on over to UniSci and check outProtein Structure Reveals Elegant Water Flow Solution. Wretched technical nit-pick: Since 1 Å = 0.1 nm, 2.2 Å is actually 0.22 billionths of a meter, or 220 trillionths of a meter, not "22 billionths of a meter" as stated in the article -- that would be 22 nm, the diameter of a large molecule containing hundreds of atoms. A single small atom, like hydrogen, is about 1 Å across.
Nanotechnology will be a regular topic here on A Voyage To Arcturus. Much of the gritty, practical work of getting us to the nanotech threshold will consist of elucidating protein structure and folding. UniSci has a "Special Archive" on nanotech which does not appear to be regularly maintained; a better source is theForesight Institute.
The original primer on the subject,Engines of Creation, is still the best. I regard it as the most important work of non-fiction published in my lifetime.
An Extraordinary Commentary
Thanks toInstaPundit for pointing to this white-hot commentary by legendary Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci. Get a kleenex box first. This is not for the faint of heart. Also contains R-rated language.
The Book
It was perfectly timed for the rise of the Boomer generation; The Hobbit had become an immediate children's classic in the decade before the birth of their first cohorts, so many of them were introduced to Tolkien's enchanting invented world while still in grade school. Word of mouth, and the spiritual perplexities of adolescence and early adulthood in the minds of millions of budding idealists, did the rest.
Tolkien liked individual Americans well enough, but was not fond of them in groups, despised American culture even as its market-driven energies made him rich, and was horrified by the sex-drugs-rock&roll culture that appeared during the final decade of his life. The Matthew 13:24-30 scene that is the English-speaking world has something to offend everyone. I nonetheless hope and believe that he had some understanding of how his work blessed a vast number of people who were products of a very different educational system and who embraced -- among other things -- music he could not appreciate.
For it is all of a piece: the music, the times, the friends, the beliefs, and the book. The application process for the University of Chicago, at least in the 1970s, required the applicant to pen short essays about three books of his choosing: one non-fiction and two fiction -- by which the applicant felt most influenced. Everyone I ever knew well enough at Chicago to ask about this told me that one of their fiction choices wasThe Lord of the Rings. It cut completely across personalities, native regions, religions, and even majors. Tolkien may have inadvertently done more to bridge CP Snow's "Two Cultures" than any other 20th-century academic.
As a meditation on the dangers of power, the book is without parallel, and I have often thought that one of its most crucial passages is Galadriel's explanation to Frodo that to use the Ring, his will would have to be trained to the domination of others. Contra many critics, Tolkien was no Luddite. What he loathed about Europe in the first half of the last century was not its technology but its all-too-common treatment of individual human beings and human values, ranging from shabbiness through authoritarianism to mass murder. The Ring was not the Bomb -- rather, it was something very much like what the Bomb was built to defeat.
InJ.R.R Tolkien: Author of the Century, T.A. Shippey characterizes the chapter "The Council of Elrond" as the keystone of the trilogy and ranks it among the greatest accomplishments of English literature. There will undoubtedly be a boom in Tolkien criticism in the coming months. One obvious (to me) aspect of LOTR which I have never seen in print -- OK, now, all you liberal-arts majors groping for a dissertation topic be sure and give me full credit on this -- is that the arguably four most prominent characters in the book map directly to the Four Living Creatures of Revelation 4:7, which in Christian tradition in turn represent, or are represented by, the Four Evangelists. Going further back, closely similar imagery appears in Ezekiel 1:10.
Now to avoid spoiling things just in case there's somebody reading this who hasn't read LOTR at least half a dozen times, the four characters I have in mind are 1) a king, 2) a servant, 3) an "everyman" character with whom countless readers have felt an especially close identification, and 4) a divine representative who occasionally flies around on the back of a giant eagle. Thus "the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle." (RSV)
The remarkable thing about all this -- and about the numerous other Biblical and variously Catholic allusions strewn throughout the work which others (far more qualified than I) have spotted and commented on -- is that at least initially, Tolkien had no idea where he was going with the book. His publisher wanted a sequel to The Hobbit. He decided to center the story on the Ring, as bequeathed to a nephew of the protagonist of the earlier book, rounded up some characters, started them on their way, and got stuck in Bree with a proto-#1-major-character (see above). After a considerable interval, he got off the dime (shilling?) and from then on always knew his final destination. But in his own famous phrase, "the tale grew in the telling" -- in a "subcreative" (Tolkien's own term) process something very much like aHayekian spontaneous ordering -- helped along by constant nagging from CS Lewis, who insisted that Tolkien bring a new installment to each weekly meeting of the Inklings.
Thus are epics produced -- not necessarily planned, at least not at first (though Tolkien did an enormous amount of planning and outlining later, to achieve internal consistency on matters as initially unnoticeable as two characters on the same date, but widely separated in geography, seeing the Moon in the sky in the same phase). The necessary elements were a good imagination and the right friends. About which I will have more to say in a future post.
I Get Letters, Cont'd
The original announcement went to 95 addresses. I got 10 bounce messages and one "remove us" -- evidently somebody different getting e-mail at one particular address these days -- leaving 84, of which I happen to know that 2 addresses are no longer active, leaving 82 (86.5%). I then got 20 replies, which is 24.4% of 82. Any of the 20 would be printable in a family newspaper and none made any reference to my checkered career.
So now I owe a bunch of people personal notes, and am therefore more-or-less immediately posting this as a kind of placeholder. The generic reply is thanks, great to hear from you, long time, hope we can meet physically at some point, and thanks for not dredging up any interesting incidents from my past.
I will try to set aside some regular time for individual responses. Be aware that the turnaround time on these may be a week or more. I will also occasionally solicit particular reactions in the form of "what 3 things would you take to a desert island"-type questions. Don't answer that; it's not a real one.
As already noted, however, geeky techno-replies make it through my defenses every time.
Another Anniversary
Speaking of anniversaries, space buffs may recall that this week is the 29th anniversary of the return ofApollo 17, the last manned mission to the Moon. The returning crew took the most famous full-Earth photograph ever during the trans-Earth phase of the mission.
Imagine that it's late May of 1956, the same anniversary ofLindbergh's achievement. America has four aircraft. All are owned by the Federal government, and each can carry a maximum of seven persons and has about the same cargo capacity as a tractor-trailer. There is one flight a month; each plane flies three times a year. All flights are between Washington, DC and New York City.
No one has flown across the Atlantic since 1927. Nonetheless, the aeronautical industry employs tens of thousands of people and obtains several billion dollars a year in subsidies. Flying has remained primarily a scientific curiosity, though it has found practical application intelecommunications. And of course there are unmanned "intercontinental flying missiles" (ICFMs), ready to be launched at a moment's notice to carry a nuclear bomb halfway around the world to vaporize an enemy's military base or industrial complex within twenty-four hours.
One tourist has flown, and the idea of conducting regular air tours for profit is being openly discussed, but only about one American in a million has ever been airborne. Millions of Americans suspect that Lindbergh's flight was a hoax.
This rather grim alternate-history scenario, besides inadvertently illustrating the perils of historical analogy, is how many space enthusiasts regard America's, and humanity's, position in the early 21st century. You might imagine that someone who sees things this way would be deeply alienated, and you would be right.
Indeed, mankind's failure to begin working in space on any large scale is ridiculous, and to a generation raised on Apollo, embarrassing. A few months after the Apollo 17 mission,Skylab was put in orbit. The International Space Station, nearly thirty years later, is about the same size and, like Skylab, holds only 3 people, the equivalent of 2½ of whom must work full-time just to keep it operating. One-half of one worker in space, three decades later, for at least 20 times as much money. In no other technical field, in all of history, has the same endeavor become more expensive over time. Only in spaceflight has this happened.
Detecting the leaden hand of government here is not difficult. And some of us aretrying to do something about it, but one of the greatest problems may be the bitterness of so many people involved in the nascent commercial space industry, in which the typical enterprise has the social skills of a den of badgers. ASR has sought to distinguish itself in this respect, largely at the behest of my business partner, Denise Norris.
Whether we succeed with our mission may be less important for the history of the future than whether we can help change the hearts of some of those trying to make that history.
PS - Those interested in my personal vision in this field may wish to readthis.
Chaos Is Good
Thanks toGlenn Reynolds for ref'ing this whacking great article. The penultimate paragraph is phenomenal.
Slamming Bill Tammeus
Actually apretty good guy. It just so happens that I've written highly critical letters to the editor in response to a couple of his recent columns. Here's the latest (slightly reformatted):
I don't get"Cloning begs many questions of us" (12/15).
I don't get why anyone should "react with visceral repugnance to the prospect of cloning humans."
I don't get how "cloning ... distorts the natural process of procreation by replacing it with a manipulative form of manufacturing." What about IVF, which has been around since 1978, and to which over 50,000 Americans (one of them a nephew of mine), owe their existence?
I _really_ don't get Leon Kass. Any parent who picks their spouse -- which, in this society, at any rate, is the norm -- has helped "design" their children.
And I don't get what's supposed to be wrong with "using genetic manipulation to yield designer children." A friend of mine in California takes his 4-year-old son to the hospital every few weeks because the boy has cystic fibrosis. Five percent of the entire population carries a recessive CF gene. I'll bet my friend wishes he could have done a little "designing."
Under theWeldon bill (HR 1644), any attempt my friend might have made to alter his son's genome -- and thereby save a child from cystic fibrosis -- could have resulted in a 10-year prison term.
If this bill passes the Senate and is signed into law, we will find out how many parents -- and "renegade scientists" -- are willing to spend 10 years behind bars to save children's lives.
You can read some more perspectives on thishere.
Goats to Make Malaria Vaccine
Stories likethis make me wonder why anybody, anywhere, thinks that genetic engineering is wrong (here's malaria's toll).
I Get Letters
Watch this space for a report on reader e-mail, coming Real Soon Now, together with my initial gropings toward a policy thereon.
The Giftie
I gotthis astonishing tribute to America off of The Scene.
Given that The Guardian is notoriously left-wing, it is particularly interesting to see what impresses them about the US. Also ironic, given that most of the 52 items on the list are obvious results of vigorous economic competition.
A "no" appears to have crept into #19, but the list appears accurate otherwise. I got the title to this post fromthis.
Geek Bait
Regarding "Cities and Commutes," my engineer buddyChris Struble writes:
"Since the invention of the automobile, we've moved all the services we want to get to (employment, schools, shopping, parks, etc.) farther and farther away from where we live. Yes, it may take the same amount of time to get there because we can go faster, but it takes a lot more energy. Energy also goes as the square of the velocity. So increasing speed by a factor of 10 increases the distance you can cover by a factor of 100, but it also increases energy cost by a factor of 100."
And: "The actual number of people one can interact with in a day is still limited by time, no matter how fast one travels."
This is irresistible geek bait foryours truly.
Energy costs increase with velocity, but not as the square of velocity, KE = ½mv2 notwithstanding. Cars do not, for example, get ¼ the gas mileage at 60 mph that they do at 30 mph. And highway driving is notoriously less stressful on cars than city streets, so overall costs per unit distance may well decrease. I don't know the real relationship, though, and the increasing physical separation to which Chris alludes -- and the zoning regulations which cause much of it -- do represent a limitation of the potential gain of using cars instead of legs.
Chris' second point is dead on, and has other applications as well, notably to bandwidth. Go tothis link and read the letter at the very end, the one from the really long-winded guy, who if he had it to do all over again, would merely say that in the past decade, both the rate and size of e-mails has risen by two orders of magnitude. So we're still reading about the same number of them each day, because, whaddaya know, the days aren't any longer than they were in 1991.
The reason large cities with cars and highways are better than small cities without them is the greater potential number of interactions. One can be equally busy in both types of environments, but the possibilities of the latter can be hundreds of times greater and more complex.
Chris, by the way, counts himself as firmly in the contentment camp, making him emotionally impervious to criticism, just like me. ☺
They Said WHAT?
Over onInstaPundit , Glenn Reynolds calls this contribution from a reader "cats and dogs living together." As well he might:
".'"
Les Arts Florissants
We attendedthis event Friday night. Here is the Kansas City Star review.
The Noël: Joseph est bien marié, H.534, No. 3 was especially beautiful, as was Noël: Or nous dites Marie, H.534, No. 4 the Seventh «O», O Emmanuel Rex:
O Emmanuel Rex,
Rex et legifer noster, exspectatio gentium,
et Salvator earum:
veni, ad salvandum nos Domine Deus noster.
"O Emmanuel/our King and legislator, the hope of nations/and their Savior:/come, and save us, Lord our God."
Ludwig van Beethoven is 231 Today
As all good Peanuts fans know, December 16th is Beethoven's birthday. A tribute to the great composer ishere.
Hey, I didn't say it was a serious tribute.
Keep 'em Guessing and Make 'em Squirm
Approach anyone you know who has strongly held political views (left, right, libertarian, populist, whatever). Ask for their reaction to this statement:
America is great because America is good.
How they respond is a better litmus test than any ideological or issue-based question could possibly provide.
Don't even bother with the full version of the quote -- "the pulpits aflame with righteousness," and all that. Anddon't claim that it was written by a famous person.
Nope, just "America is great because America is good." Yes or No?
Lefties, and populists of the Pat Buchanan variety, won't admit it. They're consumed with passion for the downtrodden, the oppressed, the taken-advantage-of. If all those poor people turn out to be living in a fundamentally decent country, maybe most of their problems are their own fault. And that just won't do.
The Religious Right won't admit it either. They've convinced themselves that America is crawling with perverts, abortionists, and atheists. It can't possibly be good. If it were, who would we look down on? Who would we call to repentance -- ourselves? Perish the thought.
And neither will a lot of libertarians. Why, just look at all the terrible things our government did! It practically invited the 9/11 attacks! And now it's becoming a police state!
This may be a whole new political axis: not left-right, not libertarian-authoritarian, not dynamist-stasist. More like content-malcontent. It's the difference between quiet gratitude and compulsive bitching.
Note that contentment does not mean complacency, and therefore does not preclude deliberate and determined action to make one's country an even better place. We do not withhold charity from people who've messed up their lives. We do not refrain from calling out wickedness -- or from self-examination. And we certainly do not give the State a free pass to act however, and upon whomever, it sees fit.
But we recognize that we are living in the middle of the most overwhelmingly successful experiment in human history. Not perfect. Just the best place in the world to live in, that's all.
Coming to you from "The Breadbasket, of which Kansas City is undisputably the capital ... that North American nation most at peace with itself. It is the nation that works best." (Joel Garreau,The Nine Nations of North America)
Cities and Commutes
On Friday, December 31, 1999, I took a walk withShe Who Must Be Obeyed down Janssen Place, the only private street in Kansas City, located in the Hyde Park neighborhood.
It was an occasion for reflection on the immense improvement in the human condition during the 20th century. In 1900, the largest employer in KC was the stockyards. The typical chicken-processing plant job today -- now considered emblematic of unsanitary, dangerous working conditions -- is far cleaner and safer than the stockyards were then. Not only that, there wasn't a water works! Water was pumped directly out of the Missouri River, run through a screen to take out the bigger chunks, placed in a settling tank to let the rest of the visible stuff precipitate out, and then pumped into factories, offices, and residences, without any chemical treatment whatsoever. Due to political wrangling, this didn't get fixed until 1928, by which time KC had the highest infant-mortality rate in the country. But I digress.
Only the wealthiest, perhaps the top few tenths of one percent, could afford the likes of the houses on Janssen Place. And not many of us could afford them now, though the portion of the population capable of buying such a house has probably risen to several percent. But most of us -- literally most of us -- can afford a house with indoor plumbing, numerous electrical appliances, an attached garage, central air conditioning, efficient insulation, and sundry other elements and devices either rare or unobtainable a century ago.
Imagining this city dominated by disgusting jobs and bereft of potable water is one thing. But imagining it without the automobile -- and the limited-access highway -- is something else. Non-locals reading this may need a little help here. Kansas City is what LA was supposed to become, or perhaps what Dallas and Houston would have become had their growth been properly foreseen. Rush hour in KC means occasionally slowing down to 65 mph in the right-most lane. I have a 15-mile commute to work which almost never takes more than 20 minutes, from the time I step out the door of my house to the time I step into my cubicle.
This may be the greatest change of all over the course of the 20th century. A one-order-of-magnitude increase in commuter velocity, from 3-6 mph on foot or horse-drawn conveyance to 30-60 mph by car on city streets and highways, means a two-order-of-magnitude increase (100x) in the area which can be reached per unit time. InEdge City, Joel Garreau mentions that the average maximum duration of a commute has remained roughly constant for millenia: three-quarters of an hour is about the limit for most people.
Three-quarters of an hour on foot gets you 2¼ miles. The area of a circle of this radius is 15.9 mi2.
Three-quarters of an hour by car can get you 45 miles. The area now reachable is 6,360 mi2. (Perhaps not coincidentally, this is very nearly the size of the Kansas City CMSA.)
Not surprisingly, with this kind of technology available, even as the KC metro area grew in population by over an order of magnitude, its population density plummeted. But even if the density dropped by a full order of magnitude, each member of the population could physically reach 10 times as many other members in a given amount of time!
What this means, in turn, is that the number of possible face-to-face interactions between people increased enormously. The formula for determining the maximum number of channels of communication among all members of a group is C = (N*(N-1))/2.
Among 100,000 people in a medium-sized city, there are just under 5 billion possible channels of communication. But among 1 million people in a big city, there are just under 500 billion. As KC has grown in population by a factor of 14 in the past century, the number of possible combinations of its inhabitants has multiplied nearly 200 times.
Whatever conclusions we may draw from this, the idea that the automobile has destroyed community should probably not be one of them.
Where do we go from here?
The July 2001 issue ofAerospace America discusses NASA's Small Aircraft Transportation System initiative. A sidebar discusses Moller International's "SkyCar."
Paul Moller, president and founder, says: "We think of ourselves as a very mobile population today, but we have to move at slower and slower speeds as we near our cities. Consider how much the extent of our world would change if we could move (at altitude) at speeds of, say, 300 mph, or at 175-200 mph, with the same efficiencies, at sea level."
Your homework assignment is to work out the implications of another 5x increase in commuter velocities and 25x increase in the area reachable by short trips. NASA says SATS will take 30 years to implement; Moller thinks ubiquitous air-car travel is less than a decade off.
The Real Revolution
In hisfarewell column in the NYTimes, Anthony Lewis writes:
"In my lifetime we have carried out two revolutions, unfinished but extraordinary: the ending of racial discrimination and the move toward equality for women."
A theme to which I will frequently return in this space is the perception of many non-technical people that "advance" consists only of political or social developments, with material progress strangely invisible or overlooked.
In this case, the relevant facts are:
I will not deny that there was a substantial element of "memetic engineering," in the form of moral suasion, in ending racial discrimination. Some of the most poignant episodes in modern American history were associated with that effort.
But a wealthy economy, with its underpinning of technical prowess, provided fertile soil for the seeds sown by the civil rights movement.
For more good news, readthis (the Executive Summary is just 1 page). The technological revolution is also unfinished, and it is the most extraordinary of all.
Bill of Rights Day
Today isBill of Rights Day.
Read about the Bill of Rightshere.
By Way of Explanation
I will post this message, which purports to explain what I'm doing with this thing, every month or so. Maybe every week if things get busy.
A Voyage To Arcturus is my weblog. It is named for my short-lived BBS, which ran for a few months in late '91 and early '92, and which in turn was named for theDavid Lindsay SF novel that served as an inspiration for CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters.
There are hundreds of thousands of active weblogs on the 'net in the US alone. Most are day-in-the-life, public diary-type things. A few hundred, perhaps, are political commentaries with a relatively large following, that is, thousands of regular readers; two of the best are Virginia Postrel'sThe Scene and Glenn Reynolds' InstaPundit.
Barring some miraculous infusion of talent, mine will never be in a class with Postrel, Reynolds, et al. Some of what I post will indeed be in the day-in-the-life category, though I will try to make any such material relatively enjoyable. Most of it will be in the broader realm of ideas, primarily societal-technological, some explicitly political. And I expect to write a few out-and-out sermons (feel free to tell me if you think I missed my calling).
I will occasionally request feedback and quote from correspondence, so if you want to see your stuff posted here and viewed by, gosh, maybe a two-digit number of people, please comment on my stuff, or justsend something in.
My only guideline is the broad (and in context, a bit cheeky) clause in Jeremiah 15:19, "... utter what is precious, and not what is worthless ..." - at least, I'll try to avoid the completely worthless.
I hope you will enjoy what you find here, bookmark this site, and pop in every few days. |
{Sorry for yelling.}
So, to get you ready, we're having 3 days of giveaways.
One today.
Two tomorrow.
Three on Wednesday.
Get ready.
I'm planning to use these cookie cutters soon, but I also wanted YOU to have them ASAP. They are just adorable!
- 3 cookie cutters: igloo, polar bear, eskimo
- set of colored sparkling sugars
- large container of clear sparkling sugar
- set of AmeriColor food coloring
- coupon for King Arthur Flour
For an extra entry, visit King Arthur Flour and leave a separate comment stating one item you'd love to try.
"This is such a great giveaway Bridget! Absolutely love KAF and us their perfected and natural flours all the time!they're a beautiful company to work with too if you ever have questions or a problem with purchased items."
{Notes: US only, please be sure to leave a way to contact you if you win, entries accepted through 11:59pm CST, December 12th.}
Good luck...and come back tomorrow and Wednesday...and you know, whenever! :)
super cute!! thanks for the chance to win!
Such a cool giveaway! I have used that brand before and love it!
Yep I use it all the time! :-)
The shortbread pan looks really neat!
I have not used the actual flour or ordered from them online. I have been to their website and it's so fun!
I have yet to try it. Thanks for the great giveaway!
Love the igloo, I hope I win.
ooh what a handy giveaway. i use kaf white whole wheat like all purpose and kaf bread flour for the best sourdough to ever grace my table!
Thanks for posting an awesome giveaway! I've never tried King Arthur Flour but i would LOVE to give it a try!
The Golden Eggnog Cake Mix sounds yummy!
I would love to try out the sourdough starter, sourdough bread makes me weak in the knees! :p
Ack! 15 days! I love this time of year but it is going SO FAST! Love the giveaway, love King Arthur! :) thespicedlife AT gmail DOT com
King Arthur Flour is a staple in our kitchen!
What a fun giveaway. I'd have a ball decorating a batch of cookies with these delightful items!
I want to try their holiday eggnog sugar cookie mix!
The only flour I use! My sister took to me a bread making seminar with KAF and I was HOOKED! Thanks for the opportunity!
These would make great cookies for Santa
I would love love love to try the sticky bun sugar and if I could get my hands on a bread proofer, my heart would be really happy!
We make a LOT of bread around my house and I swear their bread flour makes a difference that you can taste! Love it.
I just used King Arthur today for sugar cookies! And I use their bread flour for bread and wheat flour for pancakes. Love them so much!
my email is aisleen at spooypress dot com :D
This comment has been removed by the author.
How did that happen? I was trying to edit my comment...
I use King Arthur flours for all my baked goods!
I've never tried King Arthur flours but I've heard they are wonderful
I haven't used King Arthur flour - yet! They have a great catalog.
I use their white whole wheat flour all the time! Love it!
Love the springerle rolling pin.
I have never used it but look forward to trying it. Thanks for a chance to win.
I haven't had a chance to use King Arthur Flour before but I would love to try it out! Thanks so much for the chance to win and for your blog. I wish you and your family the brightest holiday season. :)
Yes! I love KA. I use their bread flour all the time. They have so many great products.
Just recently to make some dinner rolls.
their whole wheat flour is my favorite whole wheat flour out there. :)
I've been wanting those cookie cutters since I saw them in the catalog! I also want the mini springform pans and the shortbread pans-both of them!
Nope, never tried King Arthur flour, but I've heard great things about it. That polar bear cutter is too cute!
I have their bread flour in the pantry right now. Love the catalog too!
What a wonderful giveaway prize pack. King Arthur Flour is always my flour of choice. I love their products.
amy [at] utry [dot] it
I would love to try their Orange Juice Powder. I can imagine it will add lots of flavor without adding the liquid. Totally awesome.
amy [at] utry [dot] it
I LOVE King Arthur! I have their baking cookbook and I'd love to try a their Gold yeast for bread making as well as a zillion other things!
Yes I use King Arthur flour for ALL my baking - cookies, bread, etc. Their allpurpose and bread flour is the only thing I'll bake with!
Great giveaway!
You know, I never have used King Arthur flour, but I've heard great things about the company. I'd love to win and give it a try. Okay, really I want that polar bear cookie cutter. It is so cute!
Аppreсiate thiѕ post. Let me try it out.
my website - nolongeryourex.com
It's my first visit here. I think I have used King Arthur flour long long time ago when I used a breadmaker. I would love to learn to bake with it. I am most interested in learning how to color food and decorate it. Hope I win!
Global Ads Business which have 10 Types of Earning Systems with 3 Levels Referral Program.
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Global Ads Business which have 10 Types of Earning Systems with 3 Levels Referral Program.
Want to Join Just Contact : [email protected]
I've heard great things about this brand, but haven't had a chance to use it. Hopefully, I could win this giveaway and try out their products!
[email protected]
I'd love to win because here in Australia we don't have polar bears!!!!!
We WOULD if I won, though!!!!!
I've only used their whole wheat flour.
I have never used King Arthur products, but I do receive their catalog.
[email protected]
I have not ever tried the King Arthur products but I would love too! The commissary here has the flour I just have used Pillsbury for so long that I am having a hard time trying new things.
OF COURSE i've used KAF--it's my go-to brand. :)
What an awesome giveaway. I looooove KAF! I just bought a bag of bread flour yesterday. And those gels are even on my Christmas list.
I've spent many hours on their recipe blog but haven't tried the flour yet-would love to! The item that jumped out at me (especially this time of year) is the candied cherries, I could put them to good use! Thanks for the fun give-away:@)
yes, i do use their flour. It's really nice to work with.
hard to choose just one product. Right now I could really use their grating pod...looks like a handy tool.
These are so cute. I cannot wait to make them. Thank you for sharing and the great giveaway.I have used King Arthur flours.
[email protected]
Such a beautiful display and giveaway you have offered! I've never tried King Arthur flour since I'm not a huge baker, but I intend to go out this morning and buy some to make Christmas cookies! [email protected]
I haven't used King Arthur flour before, not sure if they carry it around here! Great giveaway!!
Kara
I visited their website, didn't realize they had so many products other than flour!! I would try the chocolate chunk scone mix! Hope I win!
Kara
I love, love, love King Arthur flour. I have 3 bags awaiting my Christmas baking.
I haven't used it before, I'd love to try!
I've never used any of their products but I've drooled over their catalog many, many times!
King Arthur flour is the best, their catalogs will make you want to spend all your time baking. I buy rye flour there because NO ONE carries rye flour anymore. Thanks for the chance to win.
I have used King Arthur bread flour only.
Honey, you mean to try and tell me that other brands might be anywhere near as good as the King? SACRILEDGE!!! shame on you!! This is THE ULTIMATE! Sure, other stuff is in my kitchen, but it's good for dusting boards, stuff like that!! I'm a spoiled, greedy lil thing! Lol... And shameless plug, I'll be 57 on the 19th... Nice birthday gift!!(hint, hint..hahaha!!) Happy Yule, Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas! Love to all!! =)
I've never used their flour (well, not yet...).
I think I have used it but in all my cooking knowledge I couldn't tell you if it was any different! Ha! Maybe I need to try it again... :)
I'd love to play with the mini alphabet cookie cutters!
I would love to get KA's snowflake cookie cutter set. Really the catalog is filled with must haves.
My 62nd birthday is December 12.....hint.
You can send my goodies to
birdsnest10000 at yahoo dot com
Yes I have used King Arthur flour.
I use their stuff ALL the time! It's wonderful! :)
jtomase at gmail dot com
I use their whole wheat flour for making bread. Love it!
I love King Arthur Flour, and I LOVE that eskimo cookie cutter! It looks like the Hallmark ornaments I collect every year :)
I've seen it in stores but never used it before.
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poѕtѕ intο it? Αnу hеlp would bе rеally appreciаtеd!
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Hi Bridget, I love KA Flour. It is so fine and clump free. I love to use it on my cookies!
I have recently started using the flour, and I will never go back to the other kind...I have seen such a difference in my baking when using King Authur....thank you for the chance to win these wonderful products.
Mary Juckett
[email protected]
I use their stuff all the time, both the ingredients and their pans!
King Arthur Flour is tops! If you ever get a chance to attend one of their demos, go for it!
I've always been curious to try the cake enhancer.
I use their flour for much of my baking. I prefer organic.
I have purchased their scone mixes which are wonderful and many different pans and kitchen gadgets.
They are a favorite store.
How fun!! I'm new to your blog, love the cookie cutters and supplies :)
I'd love to try the sugar and the sugar pearls... So much cute stuff on their site!!
I love KA flour! We even visited their store on vacation last year.
Great giveaway! Happy Holidays.
I've never tried King Arthur flour, but I loved to try those cookies cutters!
I almost exclusively use KA Flour. Love it.
This is a great giveaway and I love the King Arthur catalog. I get so excited when a new one comes, I sit with a cup of coffee and pour over every page!
We do not have King Arthur flour in our area but, if it made my cookies turn out like yours, I would travel to get it...
I would like to try some of their gluten free stuff
I have never used King Arthur flour, but am curious to try it.
[email protected]
King Arthur is the only flour I use! Just used it to bake the pieces for my gingerbread house. Love their products and your blog, too...
I love Kind Arthur flour. But I never tried it until reading about it on your blog!
I have not seen king Arthur flour.
King Arthur Flour is a Staple in my pantry.
I would love to try the potato pancake mix.
I would like to try out the snowflake shortbread pan.
[email protected]
I have used it and love it!
I only use King Arthur flour. Their catalogs are fantastic - I want it all!!! Thanks for these giveaways - yay!
ellen(at)myerly(dot)net
I love King Arthur Flour! The cookie cutters are adorable.
I love King Arthur Flour. Its an important staple in our pantry!
I'd love to try their vermont cheese powder!
I'd like to try their non-melting white sugar for sprinkling on baked goods. Thanks for these fabulous giveaways!
ellen(at)myerly(dot)net
I love King Arthur Flour in everything I make. They have awesome support available too!
I would love to try the perfect pizza blend.
ever used? we LOVE KA Flour, we always try to get KA whole wheat (when it;s in stock at our local grocery) for our bread and we love to order parchment paper and yeast in big bags from the website!
I'd like to try KA's gluten-free mixes sometime.
I've used their flour before, but I'd love to try some other products!
I love it!
I love KAF! You know they just opened up their new store up in VT, would love to vist there...and yes I have tried their flour , I'm lucky our local supermarket carries it!
I have never tried King Arthur flour! I will definitely have to give it a go! I LOVE your cookies!
Yes, I've tried King Arthur flour and loved it.
Love KAF, all I buy for flour nowadays.
I would like to try their whole wheat flour
KA is the only flour I use to bake challah....love combining their bread and whole wheat flours!
I have always wanted to try their new exclusive brand of vanilla extract...thank you for a chance to win Bridget!!
mmcmm 563 at comcast dot net
Love your blog and have used King Arthur Flour for years. Bought your book and love how easy, tasty and sturdy the basic cookie recipe is.
We often use King Arthur flour
I would want to try their cookie sheets or their pie rolling mat (since I'm fairly new to pies).
I've never tried King Arthur flour.
I only use King Arthur Flour!
I've never tried their flour, but will do so soon!
1. "Christmas is fifteen days away" = meanest things you've ever said. #panic
2. I have never used King Arthur Flour.
I am new to cookie decorating and I love your blog! I also love King Arthur Flour - my MOST FAVORITE brownie recipe is from their website!
I would like to try their sour dough starter kit.
I'd love to try their organic bread flour.
3. I had no idea they had "things"! I want all of the things! But I immediately get the apple peeler, corer, slicer. And a cupcake corer. And a waffle maker. And, and, and... :-)
I would like to try the gel paste food colors
Those cookie cutters look like such fun!
I'm a big fan of their cranberry orange muffins and scones along with their gingerbread!
I'm looking forward to trying their pumpernickel for making pumpernickel bagels!
I have tried the whole what flour. It was great.
I want to test good luck on myself, thanks for this opportunity
I do use King Arthur flour-- especially when baking bread. I get better results when using their whole wheat flour and their bread flour, so I've stopped making bread with other brands.
I use King Arthur bread flour to make bread in my bread maker every week
bjn1957{at}gmail{dot}com
I would like to try some King Arthur sparkling sugars
bjn1957{at}gmail{dot}com
I use KAF. My mom is a 6th, 7th & 8th grade home ec teacher and KAF came and did a demonstration on how to make bread for the students. Each child got supplies to make a loaf for their family and one to give to the local food pantry. Such a wonderful company and product. Will never use anything else!
I didn't know King ARthur did sprinkles and sanding sugars! I've learned something new from their website. However, I'm in need of rice flour right now, so I would love to get my hands on some of that! (And maybe some of that sanding sugar for the cookies that I'm wanting to make with that rice flour!!)
I got so excited when I saw King Arthur Flour in this post! Their cookbooks and catalogs are fantastic and always remind me of baking in the kitchen with my grandma and all the women in my family this time of year. As great as the products look in the catalog, they're even better in person - who would have thought something as simple as "cake enhancer" would actually make a world of a differnce!?
I love their white whole wheat flour. I use it all the time. [email protected].
This comment has been removed by the author.
What a wonderfujl give-away. I'd love to win those extra cute cookie cutters. My pick of a new product to try is King Arthur's black cocoa.....sounds so enticing.
I love their white whole wheat flour. I use it all the time. [email protected].
I have not used it but am anxious to try it after seeing all of the amazing creations on your blog! [email protected]
I've been thrilled that grocery stores are now selling KA flour. Thanks for letting us enter the contest on two sites. I'm anxious to place an order now that free shipping is in effect.
One item I'd love to try is an item I'd love to buy (or get for Christmas from my husband!) is the book of chocolate!
What better thing to try than something that has a whole slew of all things chocolate recipes? Surely it's the gift that keeps on giving.
Yes! Absolutely, I use it all the time!
I tried their flour last year for the first time and liked it a lot!
I have used King Arthur flour and it is the best. I would love to win this great giveaway, thank you for the chance.
[email protected]
Kim
What fun - I just finished over 200 cookies yesterday but still have more to go - the cookies cutters would be a fun new addition!
I'd like to try their multi-grain pancake mix.
I have used and highly recommend many items from their baker's catalog, and I have to also add that their customer service is amazing!
What I would like to try that I haven't yet is ALL of their specialty chocolates.
Always use KA flour! The cookie cutters are cute!
This is the first year I am going to do cutout cookies with my twins, the cutters would be awesome!
I would like to purchase the Mini Springform Pans.
[email protected]
I have recently used King Arthur flour. They don't carry it in my grocery store. But I found it at target! So I knew I had to pick up a bag to try!
I only use king Arthur flour:))
I'm a huge fan of KAF, use their products all the time!
I LOVE King Arthur Flour-use it all the time!
I love King Arthur Flour! I will only use their flour for my Irish soda bread. It's the best!
Hi love your blog read it everyday I use King Arthur flour too most of the time for my cookies and cakes thank there are a few stores in my area that sell it : )
I have not tried King Arthur *yet* but I am fortunate enough to receive their catalogs thanks to the person who live in my house before me!! :) Thank you for the opportunity! :)
I have never used King Arthur Flour. Looks like a great product!
I have used King Arthur flour and I do find it to be superior to the "regular", "cheaper" stuff!
I have sugar cookies on my list, this would be perfect!
I have never tried King Arthur Flour, but would love to! Hope I win!
King Arthur Flour is the only flour I use.
Oh my goodness! Love all the baking tools, especially the ABC pastry cutters!
I visited the King Arthur site.
what a fun prize, thank you for the chance!
Love King Arthur!!
I would love to try some of the flours from King Arthur and also their cookies ideas are really cute!
This is such a great giveaway Bridget! Absolutely love KAF and us their perfected and natural flours all the time!they're a beautiful company to work with too if you ever have questions or a problem with purchased items.
I have never used King Arthur brand before but I've heard nothing but good things so I'm excited at the chance to win!
I have never used King Arthur flour, but I'd love to try it out. Those cookie cutters are adorable!
What a great giveaway!
I ONLY use King Arthur Flour. Love their products! and the baked goods I make with them. =)
I'd like to try the perfect pasta flour blend.
I would love to try their Chicago Bistro French Onion Soup Mix
I have never used King Arthur flour. I've heard about it and have seen it in my store, but have never tried it. Looks like I need to!
I do not use their flour but you are not the only one that swears by them. I'd love to try it out!
I'd love to try KAF's yeast stater and let it grow in their beautiful yeast crock. Other than that, I'd love to just have a mix of all of their savory and sweet items (chocolates, spices, extracts, grains) residing in my pantry.
I would love to win! [email protected]
We have not yet used KA products, but hear wonderful things about them!! Thanks for the giveaway!!
Every year I make plain old "round" cookies with decorating sugar this year its time for a change! Need to try something new! keeping my fingers crossed!
I want to try their scone mixes - especially the Vanilla Raspberry & French Toast! YUM!!
My credit card is quite familiar with King Arthur!
I have never used King Arthur :(
I want to try their praline paste and the pastry flour they have
I always use King Arthur flour. I was so happy when they started selling it in the local grocery store here in Florida.
I have not used King Arthur flour, but I did receive a gift package of hot chocolate and it was delicious!
I would like to try their sourdough starter.
I just used it to make Whole Wheat Cinnamon Raisin Bread!!
What a great giveaway. The cookie cutters are adorable.
I haven't ever used King Arthur flour, but I'd love to try it!
I would love to try the Dark Pumpernickel Bread. I love King Arthur Flour.
dluscioust at gmail dot com
I have used King Arthur Flour before - my aunt even gave me a couple of their cookbooks as a graduation gift!
What a fun giveaway! I honestly don't believe I've ever used KAF. I've heard nothing but good things, though!
[email protected]
I ONLY use King Arthur Flour! It's the best!! [email protected]
I have used King Arthur flour and had great results! |
|
maxpower
Missouri
1.13
/5
rDev
-72%
look: 3.5 | smell: 1 | taste: 1 | feel: 1 | overall: 1
12 oz bottle pours a hazy orange copper with a small off white head that leaves some lacing in my glass, funny pine aroma like a mix of Pine-Sol cleaner and Off insect repellent. Super sweet orange, maple syrup and alcohol flavors. Full bodied with a thick sticky syrupy mouthfeel, finishes with a lingering sweetness. A 12 oz bottle is too much for me, after only a few sips I am done...way too sweet, hard to dump such an expensive beer but I have no choice.
Serving type: bottle
02-13-2005 20:00:00 |
More by maxpower
Krakistophales
Connecticut
1.15
/5
rDev
-71.5%
look: 4 | smell: 1 | taste: 1 | feel: 1 | overall: 1
A: Pours copper color with very little head and just a bit of bubbles up top and some lacing.
S: Interestingly enough, it doesn't smell like hops at all. I'm picking up roast, coffee, toffee, caramel, candied fruit, curious spice notes like liquorice and anise, and a heavy sort of rum raisin cake smell.
T: Candied fruit, dark rum, raisins, caramel apple, maple syrup, molasses, brown sugar, cloying sweetness. This is complex in smell and taste, but in a way that's offensive to my palate. I just can't grow to like this. Maybe with age?
O: I was hoping for the holy grail for hopheads, but instead I get a barleywine that's been fortified with syrup and booze for 120 minutes. I'm sorry, but this is probably one of the worst beers I've had to drink, and I love other DFH stuff like 90 minute, WWS, Chateau Jiahu and others...but this just blows. Now I'm stuck with 5 bottles of this stuff. Anyone wanna trade?
Serving type: bottle
07-03-2011 06:22:32 |
More by Krakistophales
charliedango
Illinois
1.2
/5
rDev
-70.2%
look: 2 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 1.5 | overall: 1
I'm under the impression at this point that my review is unfair as I believe I got an outdated bottle. There is an overwhelming taste of vinegar in this beer inducing gag reflex in every sip. I simply can't finish this beer. Again, I may have gotten a bad bottle.
Serving type: bottle
06-09-2009 05:17:40 |
More by charliedango
Jimbo07
Hawaii
1.2
/5
rDev
-70.2%
look: 3 | smell: 1 | taste: 1 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
horrible, horrible beer. smells like really good nail polish remover. imo it's not hoppy. it's extremely floral. lots of cascade used i guess. anyway i'm pissed off by the fact i just paid 6 bucks for this disaster of a beer, and ended up pouring most of it down the sink. i am going to stick with the 60 and 90 which are complete opposites of this beer.
Serving type: bottle
11-08-2009 17:29:59 |
More by Jimbo07
Spica66
Indiana
1.25
/5
rDev
-69%
look: 3 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 1.5 | overall: 1
Got two of these in trade with randomdanger. Will, why didn't you warn me what I was doing? Shared with gwuilliums on his birthday 2010.
2009 vintage, poured into tulips.
A: Amber color with a thin head that hung around. Clear and slightly syrupy as you move the glass.
S: You have got to be KIDDING ME!! This beer is so sickly sweet smelling that I nearly could not bring myself to drink it.
Wow! It's supposed to be an IPA, right? Smells like caramelized barleywine!
T: I have had many, many cough syrups that were less fusel and not nearly as sickeningly sweet as this [beer].
M: Super syrupy. Cloying does not begin to describe this!!
D: After a second drink to see if we could swallow it a second time, (we couldn't) spit and pour into the trees. I hope it doesn't kill my tree...
Serving type: bottle
11-04-2010 17:52:30 |
More by Spica66
jt31914
Michigan
1.3
/5
rDev
-67.7%
look: 3 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
A: Decent color. More amber than pale, but considering the style that's typical. Not much head, little retention.
S: Straight up rubbing alcohol mixed with some sickly barley sweetness. Honestly no hop aroma to be found.
T: This is a mess. It is overly sweet, has NO hop flavor (if you think this has hop flavor please tell me what hops you're getting: Centennial? No. Cascade? No. This tastes like robitusson mated with KY Jelly. I would honestly rather drink goat's piss than have this again. It is NOT polished, NOT balanced, and is just NOT well done. Just because a beer is big and has bold flavors doesn't make it good; Star Jones is big and bold, that doesn't mean I like her...
M/D: Feel is slimy and overly thick, and this is as drinkable as fish eyes mixed with camel spew.
Serving type: bottle
11-07-2010 06:13:48 |
More by jt31914
terrabyte
Wisconsin
1.35
/5
rDev
-66.5%
look: 3 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 2.5 | overall: 1
This poured a very cloudy orange color. Almost half the glass was full of foam. Careful pouring this.
Although there was a quick frenzy of smells when I first poured this beer, it subdued into almost nothing quite quickly. As I waited for the foam to settle, the smell settled down to a dull fruity musk.
The flavor will make you stop what you're doing. Even if all you're doing is drinking beer. I'm immediately reminded of "Four O", a malt liquor by La Crosse brewing that is ranked at 10% ABV. It's high dextrose content gave off a solvent and fuel like flavor. While that beer tried its best to mask that flavor, this beer fails at it. I'm still not finished drinking this beer, and I've gone off and read about 20 reviews, 3 beer style reviews, and read all my email since I started the bottle and this review. I've been making bitter beer face the whole time.
This beer is too thick, too sugary, too sweet, too strong. And here I thought I was going to be hopped to death? The hop flavor takes a back seat to the syrup flavor.
This won't stop me from buying another bottle and hiding it in the basement for a decade. After all, it does say on the side of the bottle:
"What you have here is the holy grail for hopheads. This beer is continually hopped over a 120-minute boil and then dry-hopped every day for a month. Enjoy now or age for a decade or so."
Serving type: bottle
10-11-2006 04:41:47 |
More by terrabyte
Hellabeerguzzler
Pennsylvania
1.35
/5
rDev
-66.5%
look: 4 | smell: 2 | taste: 1 | feel: 1 | overall: 1
Looked good enough. Poured nice and rich with hearty color and top. I should have stopped there. I know this is supposed to be constructive but this is not for me.
The smell is of medicine. Cough syrup, malts, hops a little line pine-cleaner.
The taste is worse than the smell. Is this really a DIPA? A TIPA? Tasted like an overly sweetened malty boozy barley wine with some hops thrown in (or pine-scented cleaner). It was not refreshing and I couldn't even nurse it. It's just not a good flavor. Perhaps they need more testing of what's leaving the brewery? Or maybe it's just a high alcohol gimmick? I'm a hophead, IPA lover.
This is a beer you drink on a dare. It's not drinkable. Maybe put a shot of it in some seltzer water.
Serving type: bottle
02-09-2011 08:31:21 |
More by Hellabeerguzzler
chicagoish
Pennsylvania
1.4
/5
rDev
-65.3%
look: 3 | smell: 2 | taste: 1 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
Anybody who's had a colonoscopy knows how hard it is to drink the prep. You hold your nose and do anything possible to distract yourself from the thick sickenly sweet, perfumely, pungent, syrup that's about to enter your body. I find myself doing the same with this brew. The sweetness is too much to take. The smell is not pleasant, and the mouth feel, combined with the above conspires to make the whole experience unpleasant. I tried really hard to finish the bottle, but alas, it's down the drain.
Serving type: bottle
09-05-2009 22:41:13 |
More by chicagoish
Arbitrator
California
1.43
/5
rDev
-64.5%
look: 3 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 1 | overall: 1
Chilled bottle into a glass. Part of a vertical from 2003 to 2009, minus the 04. Thanks to Mark (mfielden) for bringing half the bottles. Thanks to tprokop7, Uwftke26, and drabmuh for supplying my half in trades. Thanks!
I'm reviewing the '09 here.
A: Pours a clear amber body, with a surprising cap on the brew. It retains longer than expected for a beer of this ABV.
S: We started with the 09 and worked backward. The aroma of this one alone nearly killed my desire to go forward. Solventy paint thinner, perfumey, citrus hops... It's like grapefruit soaked in bottom shelf vodka. I'm not sure I understand how anyone would sniff this and think, "We can bottle it and sell it!" Why? Why would you do that?
T: Again, a perfumey, citrusy, extremely fusel-y experience. This really isn't my beer at all when fresh. It's sweet, boozy, harsh.
M: Chewy, full-bodied, bracingly boozy. Harsh is actually an understatement.
D: This was worth it for the novelty alone, but even my small pour was a chore off this fresh bottle. This challenges drinkability. I would not have this beer again. Vile stuff.
Serving type: bottle
04-30-2010 10:29:17 |
More by Arbitrator
SpeedwayJim
New York
1.45
/5
rDev
-64%
look: 4 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 3 | overall: 1
Shared by a roommate that wanted to give this one a try. 12oz bottle (not sure of the vintage). 4oz. pour into a snifter.
A: Healthy pour yields a 1 finger semi-fine white head with decent retention. Beer is a clear, pinkish-peach. Lacing is ringed and patchy with decent stick.
S: Vinegar and booze with the former being (unbelievably) more prominent than the later. Oh yeah, there's a bit of near undetectable citrus hops in the back.
T: Holy shit. A booze bomb all the way. This is more of a barleywine than an IPA. Alchohol is pervasive and vinegary characteristic makes me wanna puke. Hops are barely detectable, just like any other flavors that might've been present. Super sweet also with no hop bitterness. Finish is more of the same with an oily, boozy, sugary aftertaste that just won't go away.
M: Medium bodied, good carbonation and oily in the mouth. No liveliness like I expect from an IPA, however it is a bit coarse around the edges. Finish is messy and aftertaste lingers.
D: I don't know how this is categorized as an IPA and not straight vinegar. Sour from the nose to the mouth but the sad thing is, I can barely get the sourness in the taste because its covered by the immense alcohol. Don't waste your money. I'm glad this was shared because if I had it myself, I would've sipped about an ounce and drain-poured the rest. DFH makes a line of great IPAs with their 60, 75, and 90 minute beers. However, for me, this is definitely the odd man out. Its horrible.
Serving type: bottle
06-25-2010 03:15:01 |
More by SpeedwayJim
ph2001
Massachusetts
1.48
/5
rDev
-63.3%
look: 2.5 | smell: 2.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
12 oz bottle in pint glass
light amber color that is very hazy. one finger of head that maintains pretty well. the taste is ridiculously boozy, sweet and nauseating. the thick sweetness coats your mouth and before you can work your way around that the booze kicks in. mouthpuckering and makes you cringe. in no way drinkable. could not even come close to finishing this one.
Serving type: bottle
10-19-2008 17:43:05 |
More by ph2001
Deconstructionis
West Virginia
1.53
/5
rDev
-62%
look: 3.5 | smell: 2 | taste: 1 | feel: 3 | overall: 1
This beer had been lavishly praised by a friend but it can't be had where I live, so when I saw it on a trip, I bought a 4 pack. I was very disappointed (The price is absurd-- ahh, the wonders of marketing). I found it had no balance and the hops were so overpowering the only other flavor besides unadorned sweetness I could really distinguish was a strong raw alcohol. Rather than a malty flavor, it tasted more "woody" and sugary as if pine bark and molasses were part of the wort.
I was impatient and drank the first one after only a short stay in the fridge. The best description I could come up with would be ultra-sweetened hop tea mixed with grain alcohol added to a run of the mill IPA..
Maybe I got a bad batch but I did not think it was good at all. It was essentially undrinkable lukewarm and I had to chill it to the point my palate was numbed for it not to be unpleasant.
If we want to give points for extremism. that's one thing, but if tasting good and being pleasurable to drink are criteria this one fails.
Serving type: bottle
08-25-2006 21:09:10 |
More by Deconstructionis
ffejherb
Pennsylvania
1.58
/5
rDev
-60.8%
look: 4 | smell: 1.5 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
On tap at TJ's on 12/5/09 for their 6th Anniversary celebration.
A - Beautiful clear orange-colored body with ruby highlights and amber hues and half a finger of bubbly off-white head that reduced to a patchy veil and deposited minimal lace around the snifter.
S - Hmmmm... smells like solvent or kerosene or some kind of glue or nail polish remover. Think Silly String. You know that brightly colored, foamy stuff that you shoot out of an aerosol can? Unfortunately, yes. Now you get some idea of how nasty this smells. Some citrus peel/hop oil character attempts to claw its way through the overpowering gas-like fume to no avail.
T - Flavor is really hot, perhaps the hottest beer I've ever had in my mouth. This is ultimately extremely sweet and syrupy, and doesn't really scream hops at all. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even whisper hops. I hope for the sake of this beer's reputation that this was a bad batch, because I've heard that this beer is amazing on tap. Let me tell you, amazing this is not. Imagine (as bad as it sounds) drinking a glass of gasoline with a giant heap of sugar mixed in.
M - Mouthfeel is sweet and cloying beyond belief. Texture is syrupy and very sticky. There is virtually no hop bitterness on the palate at all.
D - Honestly, I would have drain poured this if I didn't pay over $6 for a snifter. Very, VERY disappointed with this offering on tap. 90min. is so much better and hoppier than this abomination, and the only reason I can think of that DFH would brew such an undrinkable beer is purely for the novelty of it.
Brewslut's Quote of the Day:
"Smells like vinegar and Easter Egg dye."
Serving type: on-tap
12-27-2009 16:20:02 |
More by ffejherb
philipquarles
Louisiana
1.63
/5
rDev
-59.6%
look: 3 | smell: 2 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
Bottle dated April 2008--9 months old at the time of review. Pours a thick orange/copper with a small eggshell head. The foam dissipates quickly to leave some wispy traces and a collar. Small amounts of sediment. Smells...big. Definite floral hops, but there's so much sweet, biscuity malt that it's hard to decide which is dominant. Apricot jelly/syrup mixed with a bit of apple cider vinegar. Incredibly boozy--I've never actually had a beer that burned my nose upon sniffing. Very loosely reminiscent of a brandy. It's all sweet malt and alcohol upon tasting. Some hop flavor and bitterness, but it's really quite masked. Warming (burning) finish. A syrupy, boozy mess.
Serving type: bottle
02-09-2009 04:21:18 |
More by philipquarles
razorsdescent
Pennsylvania
1.65
/5
rDev
-59.1%
look: 4 | smell: 3 | taste: 1 | feel: 2 | overall: 1
This is my first review.
Let me start out by saying that i prefer strong ales and IPA's
I had this brew at RFD in washington DC.
While eating dinner with a friend i noticed this beer and was attracted by the high ABV which exceeded anything i have previously had. at $20 for 12oz bottle i had fairly high hopes.
A pouring into the glass it had a nice autumn color maybe a little darker than a normal IPA but still attractive
S this is where things started to go down hill it wasn't horrible but behind the hops smell there was this sickly sweet smell.
T Now maybe i got a bad bottle but this was disgusting. Between college and the army i have had some horrendous alcoholic beverages but this was on par with rot gut tequila. The only two discernable tastes were that of a sickly sweet syrup that leads into a taste that i can only define as industrial alcohol or everclear.
M The mouth feel was fairly thin and unimpressive.
D this is the least drinkable beer ive ever had
i wasnt even able to finish the bottle. i eventually poured what was left into a half filled glass of a dark amber ale the resulting drink actually tasted rather delicious.
I believe there was probably something wrong with my bottle leading me to believe that maybe the brewing process used for this beer is a little hit or miss and i got one of the misses. i plan on trying this beer again at another venue and finding out.
Serving type: bottle
09-26-2008 23:34:13 |
More by razorsdescent
zoolzoo
Connecticut
1.68
/5
rDev
-58.3%
look: 2 | smell: 2.5 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 1 | overall: 1.5
vintage 2011
A: Copper in color, barely any head.
S: Piney hop resin buried in a mountain of sickly sweet malt and booze.
T/M: Thick and oily traces of hops, greatly overshadowed by copious amounts of caramel malt and alcohol. Mouthfeel is reminiscent of cough syrup, and the flavor profile is close enough to back it up. Serves as a decent sipper for a minute or two, but soon causes me to cringe. This is not IPA concentrate.
O: A mess, should not exist.
Serving type: bottle
11-14-2011 21:00:59 |
More by zoolzoo
mcarroll10177
Massachusetts
1.7
/5
rDev
-57.8%
look: 4 | smell: 3 | taste: 1 | feel: 2.5 | overall: 1
Let me just say that DFH 90 is my favorite IPA hands down. So I was excited when 120 was on the shelf and i bought 4 bottles. DFH pushes the envelope, but this was pushed to far.
A- golden brown with big thick off white head
S- Flowery hops hit like a slap in the face
T- bitter hops like i am chewing on the flower and alcohol hit like i am washing it down with gasoline
M- balanced
D- a bitter disappointment pun intended.
Serving type: bottle
02-02-2009 14:41:14 |
More by mcarroll10177
cpn920
New York
1.7
/5
rDev
-57.8%
look: 4 | smell: 3.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 1.5 | overall: 1
This beer is so over the top that I couldn't even finish an 8 0z glass. It looked great with a murky orange and big meringue like head. Down hill from there. Smelled overly sweet like maple syrup. Taste was even more ridiculous with its sweetness that was so unbalanced. Mouthfeel was thick and chewy. Drinkability is as low as it gets IMO. Put it all together with price and it's a joke...a very expensive joke.
Serving type: on-tap
02-06-2009 19:32:49 |
More by cpn920
thegreatbeerer
Pennsylvania
1.7
/5
rDev
-57.8%
look: 5 | smell: 2 | taste: 1 | feel: 4 | overall: 1
wow! this beer is extremely disappointing. dogfish head's 60 and 90 minute ipa's are excellent. the 90 is one of my 3 favorites along with lagunitas hop stoopid and stone's ruination.
this beer is not an IPA. it's a barleywine.
actually it tastes like a bad port wine i had once in college.
it looks amazing
the feel and body are great, very velvety
the nose is great too!, if you're an 8 year old girl at a carnival
this thing smells like cotton candy.
the taste? very fruity, too malty, too syrupy
it might be good on hot waffles!?!
at least the butter could balance the sweetness.
the hops were wasted on this "beer"
they would have tasted better on spaghetti.
Serving type: bottle
01-23-2010 17:35:01 |
More by thegreatbeerer
generalnotsew
Tennessee
1.75
/5
rDev
-56.6%
look: 4 | smell: 4 | taste: 1 | feel: 1 | overall: 1
Before I start I want to say I have had this beer twice before first time about a year and a half ago. Palate has changed a lot since then but I really hated this beer both fresh and with a year on it. This one is 1 year and a half so it is 21% abv. My palate has changed a lot since I had this last so here goes.
A: Much thicker head than I would have thought with something this high gravity. It is a deep amber color but nothing noticeably different than a standard IPA. Still nice looking.
S: Well I must say the hops are still very prominent just that the sweet sickly smell has faded and it smells like it may actually be bitter. Also picking up a very earthy dirty tone. It smelled way better when I first poured it. But still pretty good.
T: Sorry. But I really want to like this I just can't. Way too sweet and sourish for me. Not exactly sour but sourish like a week old apple. This beer is really unpleasant. I love, love, love my IPA's and hoppy goodness but this stuff is terrible.
M: Way too thick. I actually thought I had some food stuck in my mouth it left that much of a film.
D: Terrible. No one could drink more than 2 of these at one time. It would take me personally 3 hours to finish this as I hate every sip.
I never thought I would give ones. I started out with 2's but I hate this beer so much I have to be honest. The smell was really great and I thought after all the DIPA's and IPA's I have had that I would start to like this one.
I really don't understand why this gets such a high score. Do people just feel they have to like it after spending $10 for a 12 ounce bottle? Or is it just really great to some people? I really don't know the answer to that. I suppose a lot of people do like it but not me. If you are a hophead and love your DIPA's be careful of what to expect here.
That being said I could drink the 60 minute IPA by the gallon. Don't want to give the impression that DFH is inferior. Great brewery I just cannot like this one.
Serving type: bottle
02-05-2010 05:48:34 |
More by generalnotsew
Satchboogie
New Hampshire
1.78
/5
rDev
-55.8%
look: 3 | smell: 2.5 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 1.5 | overall: 1.5
2011 vintage poured into a wine tasting glass
A: Pours copper, hard to see through (thick, not hazy), barely any head, decent lacing.
S: Putting my nose to the glass nearly knocked me on my ass. Pungent hops but more importantly sickly sweet candied fruits. It was like getting liquid hard candy shot up my nose.
T: Awful. Just awful. Sickly sweet is an understatement. It's unfortunate because there are some nice tropical fruit and citrus flavors there, but it's covered in tons (literally) of corn sugar. I couldn't choke down more than 3 sips. The hop profile wasn't overly bitter/pine, just a lot of really sweet citrus and tropical fruits. It's really hard to describe anything else. Sure, there was a big malt base, but it was completely lost behind all the sugar.
M: Low carbonation, imagine the thickest possible DIPA... it's thicker. Pancake syrup thick. For a stout with decent carbonation, great. For a sickly sweet DIPA, disgusting. Easily one of the worst textured beers I've had.
O: This was a drain pour for me, I couldn't get past 3 sips. Sickly sweet doesn't even come close, it's disgusting. I don't even know how someone calls this a DIPA. Think of the thickest, sweetest, hottest American Barleywine imaginable, it doesn't have anything on 120min IPA. I can't say this word enough: Disgusting. The only reason this doesn't get a complete fail is because it wasn't a stomach churning, make me puke nasty, just way way way too sweet.
Serving type: bottle
08-13-2011 01:25:41 |
More by Satchboogie
blackheartbilly
Massachusetts
1.83
/5
rDev
-54.6%
look: 3.5 | smell: 3.5 | taste: 1 | feel: 3 | overall: 1
12 ounce bottle for a whopping $8.50, I was thinking "this better be good."
A- Pours a golden hazy color. After the pour, no head at all.
S- okay first thought was "nail polish remover" seriously, piney, flowers, but hoppy was not my reaction.
T- More like a strong barley wine, not an IPA. After the initial shock of alcohol, there was the comforting hop aftertaste. This beer reminds me of strong sherry-like wine.
M- Thick, very little carbonation (no bubbles in my Sam Adams glass) Strong alcohol, very warming.
D- Good to try once. Too strong for a session beer, and I wouldn't really consider it an IPA at all. Granted, I have tried strong IPAs, but this beer didnt give off a ton of hops to me. It tasted like a Barley wine crossed with Sherry wine. It really does smell like nail polish remover, that being said, MUCH too strong for me.
Serving type: bottle
04-10-2008 01:18:04 |
More by blackheartbilly
Ryan011235
Ohio
1.85
/5
rDev
-54.1%
look: 4.5 | smell: 2 | taste: 1.5 | feel: 1.5 | overall: 2
Poured into a Bell's Tulip on 8/8/12
Bottled on: 2012 C 14:47
The color is a bright, mostly clear tangerine with a consistent stream of rising bubbles. I have to admit I'm shocked that this critter wound up with a three finger, slanted cap of bubbly foam. That said, the head thins in a moderate hurry, leaving sparse specks of lace. Thin layer of retention. Heck, lace actually improves. The overall appearance is fantastic considering the abv.
There's no denying 120 Minute smells like alcohol; it's in the nose from start to finish. The plus side is there are other strong aromatics that shift the focus from the booze. The down side is they are mainly sugary and sweet. Compacted grapefruit flesh and pith surrender the only citric note in the aroma. From there, some floral tones emerge. On the whole, the hops have a solvent bent. Candied fruit, caramel, plum, sherry. Hints of bread and raisin.
Oh, my heart. Each sip is brutal - it's all sugar and alcohol. Sure, hops are in here. It's a big oily mess of a concoction that leaves a barrage of sugars to rule the roost. Candied fruit. Sweet bread. Caramel. Figs. Prunes. Raisins. Something in here tastes peppery or spicy like rye, but I know it's probably just a trick of the brain. Wow, this is sugary to the max.
The feel is a fat, sluggish, oily thing; slick with alcohol and sticky with sugars. Alcohol heat lingers long on the finish. Carbonation is on the lower side of average, but manager to poke this lazy critter in the keister.
Man, I remember the first time I had 120 Minute IPA. It was early October 2008 at my cousin's old place in Portland. I'd flown in for the Robert Plant & Allison Krauss show and rented a Corvette, which garnered dirty looks form the bike turds downtown. Anyway, Jeff took me to several beer destinations, but I picked up the 120 Minute at a Fred Meyer (side note - I was shocked that my Kroger Plus card was valid there). I was stoked as all hell to try this rarest of IPAs, since we tend to not see it 'round these parts what with the abv cut-off and all in Ohio. Jeff handed me a snifter for the occasion and I remember being entranced and in utter awe at how amazing the beer was. I thought it was the best thing ever. Jeff must have thought I was a loon. In hindsight, I most certainly do.
It's a good thing for the sake of particular beers that folks tend to associate them with fond memories as opposed to legitimate quality.
Serving type: bottle
08-09-2012 06:56:42 |
More by Ryan011235
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Elijah is best known as a man of prayer. James, whom tradition tells us was known as “camel knees” because of his own prayer life, uses Elijah as an example of the power of the prayer of a righteous man. James tells us: “The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months” (James 5:16b-17).
In 1 Kings 17:1b, Elijah boldly declares to King Ahab, “Surely, there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” Putting these two passages together we know this was the result of Elijah’s prayers..
As we have seen, Elijah lived in a time when the foundations were being destroyed. It was a time of spiritual apostasy and moral decay. The nation had abandoned God’s law and turned to the worship of Baal-Melqart. We saw that Elijah was a common man--a man of like passions as you and me. He was also a man of uncommon courage--a man willing to risk his life for the glory and cause of God. We saw that out of the blue, Ahab was confronted by this rugged prophet dressed in his camel’s hair coat, who stood in striking contrast to the effeminate, perverted Baal priests. I imagine him looking like an Abe Lincoln in contrast to a Tiny Tim tiptoeing through the tulips.
What gave Elijah this uncommon courage? Did the Lord appear to him in a dream, or speak to him from a bush as with Moses? Possibly, but the text doesn’t say that. Rather, I believe his courage came about in a less sensational but even more miraculous way. I believe it came about as the result of a common man being absorbed with the reality of his God. His courage was the product of intimately knowing God and living in close fellowship with the Lord through the Word and prayer. In the process, God’s purposes, burdens, values, and desires became engraved on his heart. Being moved by faith, he prayed for the cessation of rain in accord with the warnings and principles of Deuteronomy (Deut. 11:16-17; 28:23-24). Then, convinced of God’s answer, the prophet went forth to declare his message to King Ahab.
In lesson two we looked at the man Elijah. Now we turn to his short, but powerful message. Elijah’s message also sheds light on his theology and his faith that became the root of his courage and actions. Elijah’s message to Ahab in 1 Kings 17:1b divides into three sections, each of which forms a key that gives us insights into this man’s courage and faith. These words reveal the prophet’s heart. The mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. So, if we want to understand this man and learn from his example, we need to examine these powerful, revealing words.
(1) The words, “As the Lord, the God of Israel lives,” teach us he was convinced and confident in God’s person.
(2) The words, “Before whom I stand,” teach us he was cognizant of God’s presence and committed as God’s representative.
(3) The words, “Surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word,” reveal the fact he was confident in God’s promises.
“As the Lord, the God of Israel lives,” show us Elijah was convinced and confident in God’s person. “Living” is the first word in the statement of Elijah in the Hebrew text. It is emphatic by its position and stresses his faith in the fact of the reality of God. God was not just a theological idea to him, but a living, and personal God. He did not just know about God, but he knew God in such a personal way that it transformed his life. As Daniel said, “but the people who know God will display strength and take action” (Dan. 11:32).
Actually, in the Hebrew text, the words “living” and “LORD” (Yahweh) are bound together rather than separated as in the English Bible. They are joined by what grammarians call the binding maqqeph and means they are to be pronounced together as one. This combination was a technical device for introducing an oath or a solemn statement of fact. We are to translate it like the NASB with the word “as.” Literally, it is “As living is Yahweh . . . so surely there shall be neither be dew nor rain . . .” The idea is: “Just as sure as Yahweh, the God of Israel is alive and well, so surely there shall be neither dew nor rain . . .”
To grasp the significance of this, let’s focus in on the name, Yahweh. Yahweh means “I Am that I Am.” It is derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, meaning “to be, exist.” This name itself stresses God’s aliveness, His dynamic and active self-existence, but it also brings into view His eternal existence, sovereignty, and independence. Further, it is the name by which God revealed Himself to Israel as their redeemer as seen in Exodus 3. It strongly reminds us that He is the God of special revelation and redemptive love. In summary, this name stands for God’s being, His revelation to Israel, and His redemption of the nation.
Elijah’s appearance, his message, and this oath were all based on the vivid reality of all that God was to him. It was based on the fact that the God who had revealed Himself to the nation, was alive and actively involved in the affairs of the nation and His people. As Psalm 33 reminds us:
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance. 13 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men; . . . 18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him, On those who hope for His lovingkindness, . . .
Ahab, Jezebel, and the Baal prophets thought they had successfully killed, embalmed, and buried the God of Israel along with His worship, His Word, and His representatives. I am reminded of Psalm 50:21, “These things you have done, and I kept silence; you thought that I was just like you, I will reprove you, and state (the case) in order before your eyes.”
Likewise today, the modern world, the humanists, evolutionists, liberal theologians, cults, and New Agers as a whole, think Christianity, the Bible, marriage, and a morality with absolutes are all but dead. Certainly they think moral absolutes have no place having any impact on the political and moral decisions of our society. They say it’s old fashioned, out-dated, obsolete. People living in immorality are often heard saying, “we’re living in the ’90s,” as though society has outgrown such foolish ideas. It is as though God has been proven to no longer be an issue in life and people can ignore God without serious ramifications to themselves and society. But individuals, as well as nations, cannot ignore God’s Holy Word without serious consequences, which, like water breaking through a dam, spill over into every aspect of society. Knowing and believing this was the secret of Elijah’s boldness, his presence before King, Ahab, and the reason for the drought that was to follow. It was a judgment from the living God.
Elijah had not been infected by the mood of his day nor by God’s silence--what people so often mistake as His indifference or unreality. Rather, Elijah was convinced God was not only alive, but immanent--personally and actively involved in the affairs of both Israel and the nations. Being infused with this reality of God and His person, Elijah acted on God’s promises. He prayed and proclaimed his message to King Ahab. God was not only alive and well, but very much operative in human history. This fact transformed Elijah’s life. By the words, “as living is Yahweh, . . .” Elijah was not only declaring the reality of Israel’s God as the only true God, but declaring the fact God was superior over the false ideas of mankind and the pagan idols of the nations. Elijah was declaring it was not just any man’s ideas about God that counted, but the revelation of the God of the Bible--he alone is the true God. Likewise, our responsibility is to know God intimately, and then to proclaim the Christ of the Bible as the true Savior and God.
King after king in the northern kingdom of Israel had openly defied Yahweh and ignored Him with no apparent consequences. The idea so prevalent in the thinking of the people (just as it is today) was either Yahweh God had no real existence, or He was not concerned or involved with Israel. This was a subtle form of deism that had crept in since the people had been infiltrated by the idolatrous thinking of the nations. This is evident in a number of passages like Zephaniah 1:12; Ezekiel 8:12; 9:9; Malachi 3:14. Through Elijah’s life and message, the idea of deism was being challenged and judgment declared and experienced. Ecclesiastes 8:11-12 brings home an important lesson for us:.
Likewise, we need to be able to openly demonstrate from the facts how this nation is experiencing the futility of its beliefs. We are experiencing a moral and spiritual drought as a judgment from God because this nation has puts its trust in almost anything but the Lord of the Bible. By the facts I am talking about our past history and heritage as a Christian nation. These are not the figments of someone’s imagination, these are facts of history. But we have jettisoned that foundation and with that change has come the present moral decline and the failure of our society to deal with its problems. Programs developed by secular humanists and big government to improve society simply have not worked and can’t work apart from faith in the living God. The founding fathers of our Constitution knew this and spoke accordingly..7
God’s Word reminds us of this in Psalm 127. “Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps awake in vain” (Ps. 127:1b). Societies need what is equivalent to a watchman--the police and the military. However, when that is not first founded on a deep faith in the Lord, as it was when our country began, then, its confidence will be in vain. The first words of Psalm 127, “Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it,” remind us the same principle applies to the home. By mentioning the home first, we are shown its priority. The character of a nation’s leaders is formed in the home. As goes the home, so goes the society. This means, we need to be living the kind of Christian lives that clearly declare the reality of God, lives that demonstrate the impotence and futility of the false belief systems of the World. Elijah was declaring that their objects of worship were lifeless and had no capacity to save or to meet their needs (provide for rain and good crops, etc.).
The words, “Before whom I stand,” reveal two things about Elijah: He was cognizant of God’s presence and committed as God’s representative. Elijah was not only convinced of the aliveness of his God, but he was aware of God’s personal presence. He knew God was with him and that he was a personal representative of the Lord--one sent by the living and sovereign God of the universe. “Before whom I stand” showed Elijah’s awareness that God was with him, God had sent him. He was under God’s watchful eye, protection, supply, enablement, and orders. This statement also highlights Elijah’s loyalty to the God of Israel in contrast with the disloyalty of the majority in Israel under the false and idolatrous system of Baal. Can people tell we are different because of our relationship with the Lord? Finally, this statement showed that Elijah’s faith was anchored in at least three biblical concepts that were on his mind and in his consciousness, and that motivated and controlled his life. They gave him the courage and motivation to stand before King Ahab. These were:
(1) God’s Person: Elijah had God’s omniscience and omnipresence in mind as he spoke these words. He knew that there was no place where he would be absent from the caring and watchful eye of God (Ps. 139; Josh. 1:8).
(2) God’s Plan: As a believing Israelite under God’s covenant and as a man with the gift of a prophet, Elijah knew he was a personal representative of the living God who had the responsibility to “proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called us out of darkness into God’s marvelous light” (1 Pet. 2:9).
(3) God’s Power and Provision: With God’s presence and orders, also came God’s power, protection and provision to do what he was called to do. I am reminded of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 who will go forth in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah, and who will be protected until their ministry is over (cf. Matt. 28:18-19).
Let’s focus on Elijah’s statement as it pertains to God’s omnipresence. As the transcendent God, He transcends all. He is far above and outside of the universe, totally independent of it. He is totally separate from and outside of time and creation, enthroned on high, and exalted above the heavens. He is the sovereign King, the independent and all powerful God of the universe (Ps. 103:19; 113:4-5; 115:3; 123:1). As such, He is the source of all authority, power, and deliverance. While God is that, He is also the immanent God who operated in time and creation. He created it and He sustains it--every atom and molecule is held together by Him (Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:3). God is also intimately concerned with His creatures--particularly with mankind. Though distinct from His creation, God is immanently present everywhere in creation and in our lives. Proverbs 5:21 says, “For the ways of a man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He watches all his paths.” And Psalm 33:13-14 teaches us, “The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men; from His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth.”
There is nothing we can do, no thought we can think, no place we can go without God being there and knowing it completely. This means four things: (a) The whole of God is wholly present everywhere at all times, yet, He is separate and independent from the world and the things and creatures in the world. (b) There is no limit to God’s presence and no place is closer to God than another. (c) He does not need to travel and He can act in all parts of the universe at once with all His authority and power. (d) God is above us, below us, at both sides of everything and within all at the same time in some inexplicable way. Elijah was consciously fortified by this truth as he stood before Ahab. He knew he was not alone. He knew it was Ahab, Jezebel, and over 400 Baal prophets against him--plus one. This meant Elijah was in the majority with God who was above, below and everywhere with him.
Elijah was living in the light of God’s omnipresence and was practicing the presence of God. He was counting on God’s person and promises according to God’s Word. The person who knows the Lord can never be alone. We often may feel like Elijah’s servant, utterly alone, but we are never alone. Our need is to flee to the Lord, to draw near to Him and know His presence, rather than to flee to our strategies for handling life. But God is not only present as the omniscient one, He is present to manifest Himself on our behalf because He loves us, has done the most for us in Christ, and has chosen to use us as his vessels to manifest His love (Josh. 1:9; Deut. 31:6-8; Matt. 28:20; Heb. 13:5-6).
Consider Elijah’s statement as it pertains to his ministry as a personal representative of the Lord. Here is one of the miracles of the universe, that the infinite, almighty God who is transcendent and completely independent and who can use any means He desires, has nevertheless, created us in His own image that we might be a visible representative of the invisible God. Even after the Fall, He has still chosen to use believers to represent Him to a world fallen in sin (Psalm 8).
Elijah understood as a believer and a prophet, he was not on earth merely to have a good time or seek his own satisfaction and comfort. He knew he was there to represent the Lord boldly and courageously in the battle with Satanic forces for the souls of men and for the glory of God. Further, Elijah lived in a time when many believers were hiding in caves, afraid to speak. They were acting as though God was either dead or had taken a vacation. He could have said, “Well, no one else is taking a stand, so I guess I won’t either.”
Today, we live in a time when the world is challenging Christian beliefs and people are crying for answers. It is a time when the fields are white unto harvest. Many Christians, however, are hiding in their caves of materialism and comfort, afraid to risk their lives or reputations for the Lord. Or, rather than representing the Lord, we are representing ourselves in games of spiritual king of the mountain, defending our own turf, or simply carrying on business as usual without a sense of God’s mission for us in this world. We stutter in fright when confronted with a cultist because we haven’t learned our Bible well enough and aren’t secure enough in our faith. Or, perhaps we are being choked and bound from growth and service by the thorns, thistles, and vines of the details of life--what the Lord called “the deceitfulness of riches.” But God is still looking for men and women who will count on His presence by faith, represent Him and face the challenges and risks of our day with all its various “isms” (cf. Ezek. 22:29-31).
The words, “Surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word,” show he was confident in God’s promises. Elijah stood before King Ahab and made this statement because he was confident in the principles, promises and warnings of God’s Word, and confident of answered prayer when it is based on God’s Word and concerned for God’s glory.
Elijah’s prayer for no rain was not just something he cooked up out of his own imagination or because he was angry at Jezebel. Rather, he was acting on the truth of the Word. He was standing firmly on the promises. His prayer and statement to King Ahab were the result of knowing and believing the promises of Scripture (cf. Deut. 11:8-32; 28:23-24 with 1 Kgs. 18:18. This shows that Elijah was relying on the principles of Deut. 11). Remember, the prophets of Baal claimed Baal-Melqart was the god of thunder, rain, and good crops. Elijah’s declaration in 1 Kings 17:1 strongly challenged the reality of their god and their faith. It showed Baal was false and impotent and that the prophets of Baal were liars. It also showed truth and salvation could only be found in the prophets of Yahweh who alone spoke for God.
Likewise today, we have the responsibility to demonstrate by the way we live (our priorities and values), and by our personal testimony, the truth of John 14:6 and Acts 4:12. “If you know these things you are blessed if you do them” (John 13:17), and “blessed are those who hear the Word of God and observe it” (Luke 11:28). It is equivalent to telling people that true happiness and meaning in life come only from the Lord and then demonstrating it by our priorities, faithfulness, integrity, and by biblical pursuits that control and direct our lives.
Earl Nightingale, a motivational expert, has said, “wherever there is danger, there lurks opportunity; wherever there is opportunity, there lurks danger.” Serving and doing what God has called us to do whether it involves seeking and saving souls, taking a stand against the immoral tide of a society, or challenging a brother or sister in Christ, has always been a risky business.
In Kindred Spirit, Larry Dinkins writes:
Sooner or later obedience to the Great Commission will involve risk. The buzz word today is not ‘risk’ but ‘security.’ Risk may be popular as a parlor game but not as a lifestyle. People are interested in social security, home security, secure savings and loans, and especially secure relationships. The problem is that our security-oriented culture tends to insulate us from the real needs around us while at the same time maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain.
Recently I heard Chuck Swindoll make this convicting observation. ‘In the process of growing older we lose the desire to risk. It is a tragic loss. We become sophisticated, cautious, careful. We call it wisdom--it is cowardice, that’s all. We are afraid to take giant steps of faith. We’d much rather stay near the shoreline than cast off into the deep. We want to know that our security will be down at the end of the road.’8
Dinkins also writes:
While on furlough I heard Dr. Keith Phillips, head of World Impact, give his testimony of commitment to the urban poor. For a while Dr. Phillips tried to minister in the Watts area of Los Angeles by commuting. But his slum ministry by long distance was not meeting needs. Finally he moved his family into public housing where he was still residing. During the first three months their apartment was robbed so often that they erected a sign: GO RIGHT IN, TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, PLEASE DO NOT BREAK THE LOCK.
Having been robbed repeatedly myself, I immediately identified with the Phillips family and risks they encountered. You may be thinking, ‘That’s fine for missionaries, but I don’t plan to live in a slum, pick up a hitchhiker, or plant a church in hostile soil. How does all of this relate to me?’ Good question. The first thing is to realize that risks are not confined to slum areas, interstates, or foreign fields. A difficult neighbor or recalcitrant relative can be just as threatening as a gang member from Watts or hitchhiker along the road. Building a bridge of friendship to someone of a different race or background in your community may be as big a hurdle as translation is for missionaries in Colombia.9
Again I am reminded of Daniel’s words, “but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.” Obviously, the big question is--how well do we really know our God?
7 William J. Federer, America’s God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, Fame Publishing Co., Coppell, TX, 1994, pp. 10-11.
8 Larry Dinkins, “At The End of The Road . . . Taking Risks to Achieve the Greater Reward,” Kindred Spirit, Autum 1991.
The NET Bible is an extraordinary new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translation notes! |
That's why I always carry an India rubber bulb syringe filled with condensed ammonia.
It's been about twenty-five years since I've ridden a skateboard, so I'm not sure what kind of grind this is. It doesn't really match any of the grinds on Wikipedia, so maybe we need a new name for this one, in which case I'd suggest "Retarded Van Grind." (I'm sure someone's going to get offended by my use of the "R" word, but if you've got a more fitting way to describe what this van did I'd love to hear it.) Also, I always enjoy looking up the license plates in cases like these, and while the owner of the van still owes $115 for parking in a no-standing zone last month, I don't see any violation listed for parking on top of a protected bike lane:
It could just be that it hasn't been logged into the system yet--or, more likely, the authorities simply administered assistance and a congratulatory high five for the radical Retarded Van Grind and sent him on his way.
(And no, Retarded Van Grind was not a Classics rider from the 1960s--though if we was, obviously it would be pronounced "Van Greeend" with a guttural "G.")
(And no, Retarded Van Grind was not a Classics rider from the 1960s--though if we was, obviously it would be pronounced "Van Greeend" with a guttural "G.")
Meanwhile, here's the endearing British equivalent of the Retarded Van Grind, as Tweeted at me by a Tweeterer:
What makes this charmingly British is that the car was a Jaguar and the driver backed away awkwardly, like an embarassed houseguest who's just knocked over a vase:
He had to reverse all the way back down again in a dramatic episode which lasted at least 20 minutes and led to ominous creaking noises from the structure.
Especially British is the description of the incident as "dramatic." Here in Canada's filthy underpants, a motor-vehicular mishap only qualifies as dramatic if the death toll is in the double digits. Single-digit death tolls (to say nothing of sleep-inducing incidents in which nobody dies, like this one) are well within the margins of what's considered acceptable collateral damage. Also, we don't back away gingerly from our mistakes; instead, when things start going awry we just mash down even harder on the gas pedal--unless we have access to a firearm, of course, in which case we just shoot our way out.
Fortunately though, the days of motor vehicle mayhem are nearly at an end, since the cars can now drive themselves:
Happy wanking! It's impossible to imagine any kind of scenario in which this kind of technology could possibly go wrong, especially when it's made by Lincoln.
Meanwhile, in bicycle product marketing news, I received a press release from Fizik (or f'i"z*k:, as their name is technically rendered), informing me that they're now in the cockpit business:
This is great news, because if you've been shopping for road bike handlebars recently you know there are only about four million bends and styles to choose from:
By the way, in searching for random images of handlebars I came across this incredible cockpit:
(Make it stop!!!)
By the way, in searching for random images of handlebars I came across this incredible cockpit:
If the Ergons won't come to Fred then Fred must hike to the summit of Mount Kludge.
Or something.
In any case, clearly Fizik saw a hole in the market, and then they decided to ignore it and sell handlebars instead--though theirs are apparently different because they're forged from the power of French mediocrity:
AG2R-LA MONDIALE will be testing the new cockpit system in the world’s most demanding races, supplying the type of feedback that has been the mainstay of the development of fi’zi:k’s exceptional products to date.
And here's one of them playing with his cockpit:
(Did you know that, according to G**gle Translate, the French for "foffing off" is "foffing hors?")
He's going to be very happy to hear about that self-driving Lincoln.
Speaking of new products nobody needs, how about yet another folding bike to compete with the Bromptons and the Swifts and the roughly four billion models from Dahon and all the rest of them? Well, naturally there's one on Kickstarter, though it has an impressive pedigree in that it's designed by the guy who invented Rollerblades:
If anybody's qualified to make you look like a circus clown, it's the guy who invented Rollerblades:
And while I'm not sure what's new or compelling about this design compared to all the other folding bikes out there, I suppose you could always buy two NexiBikes and strap them to your feet:
Actually, I suspect the NexiBike is a cunning ploy by the father of Rollerblades to seduce cyclists and lure them over to the perverse world of wearing shoes with wheels on them.
Lastly, here's a very happy Canadian:
I think the camera angle is meant to simulate the view of the guy in the bike shop who sold her all that stuff.
140 comments:
OWNED
woooohooooo!
KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!!!!!!
WHOLE PODIUM?
AND THAT'S HOW A BILL BECOMES A LAW!
top ten, bitches!
Sorry got excited (ZOD).
Fiddle sticks
Top Ten!!!!!
Scranus
scranus
Early lead out.
Quite honestly. I've been waiting since the first months of this blog to get that! This feels better than a hundred fred crit victories (11:57 AM)
Anyway as I was saying to "Different Anonymous than Anonymous @12:23" in yesterday's comment section,
"If it's all the same to (me)"?
What part of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD didn't you understand?
(ZOD)
MORE BABE
Top TWoonty
WEEEDDDDD and shits
Wooooo
Oh jeah gonna help my self to more World Cup points.
"It's impossible to manage any kind of scenario in which this kind of technology could possibly go wrong,"
Did you mean "It's impossible to IMAGINE any kind of scenario in which this kind of technology could possibly go wrong," WCRM? Damn spell check...
I haz no jobs.
HAHAHAHA!
I should be worried.
That's not zen though, right?
Dunno been a long time since I rode a track bike in the city.
Nah he's right how could you manage a scenario going that wrong?
I'd freak grind that gal with the Calgary Haul from Sunday to Sunday.
Isn't that the van that Frank Costanza was humping Estelle in?
Did the grind end with a shout of "SERENITY NOW"?!?!
The jersey barrier has apparently retarded the van's 50/50 grind. And the smith grind is the best type of grind.
Do you east coasters call them "jersey barriers"?
I'm a specialist in brain free living.
That's some awesome old-timey hijinks. I'm glad I got to read it before I had to be subjected to the Kickstarter campaign to recreate it and subsequently be sent a Vimeo link to view a couple of douchey hilpster/tweedsters.
Garbage Barge
I would say that might be Babble in that video but if Babble made a video it would be of a different nature and would end with a moneyshot.
PULI TOUT
Sprinkles make everything better.
The last viddy gave me a pleasant flashback to that goofy bicycle umbrella installation video with the hot nut holder.
Foffing hors indeed.
I invented the retard grind back in '82 it involved getting yer Fruit of the Looms caught in yer trucks.
excerpt page 343 vol. 7 'Cipo - The Life & Times of a Major Hetro Meat Stick Pilot'
'The best part of the sex thing is when me brain goes buzzz and I feel all squishy.'
Of course it's a Retarded Van Grind. The grind retarded the speed of the van.
Some dutchman is going to be offended though.
So Brooks (rhymes with crooks) 'The Pickwick' douche' bag thingie ...
How is it powered? Solar or battery?
These foffing hor d'oeuvres are cold.
Two things:
I like the Fizik bar tape. And I also like the Pickwick bag.
And dear Lob, do NOT wear that stocking beard cap thing in public.
That's actually three things. Bad medicine head today.
Calgary ...
Isn't that where that guy was crucified way back when?
Now that's gun control! -hitting the tire of a bicycle in front of you while riding a bicycle yourself.
FACE MASK
missing bollards have been in the news many a time. I rememmer ngyen an idiot drove around the UNC main quad squishing hapless students in 2006, leading to a "bollard-watch". Signs were posted on main approaches asking students to report any missing bollards.
P-far shootout!
A lot of the athelete-realtors around here also carry bulb syringes loaded with condensed ammonia. I think it is retarded but what do I know? I live in a trailer.
And I keep having a wardrobe malfunction w/the bottom button on my dress causing a NSFW slit up the front. Tired. Cranky. Missing McFly. (Yeah, I said it.) And I could really use a Cipo pressure check right now.
That is all.
Pics, or it didn't happen, Frills.
Snobby - that is not a grind. It is called a Jersey barrier. It is designed to keep people from New Jersey out.
cycle
Vans don't grind, people in vans do, if they're stupid.
Fizik is Italian, not French. I suppose that means I missed the joke.
Rollerblade man smokes inferior weed.
The Bunditz
I think it's time to print up some "Free McFly" t-shirts.
Oh it is happening Comment Deleted. I'm tired of fighting this thing & I don't have a pin. So I went to the ladies and removed my slip. I'm going to act like my tights are leggings and the whole thing was carefully curated.
PEEP SHOW
2DAY ONLY
but her face, apparently
MORESPAMORIMAFUCKINKILLYA!
FOFF HORS
I don't know about that gal from Canada/Calgary [towards the end of Snob's post today]. First of all, she doesn't know how to air up her tires [is that possible?]. Secondly, she's wasting lube by over-lubing her chain. And, I'm not EVEN going to mention that she filmed her entire video INSIDE her home, wearing a face mask and goggles?! Is that something Canadians do?!
Gutteral weed
I don't know about the locking mechanism on that Nexibike.
Sounds like an excellent time to...
KNEEL BEFORE FRILLY!
In fairness to that van driver, when they first added those barriers I nearly did an idiot bike grind while making the same right turn onto Flushing. Though I guess that's not much of a defense of the van driver.
Son, your going to drive me to drinkin'
if you don't quit drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln.
Anonymous @2:16
About that locking mechanism, three words: slip, screech, crunch.
Add "ouch". So four words is all you need to know.
basically anything i write at this point is self-incriminating...
SKRT HIKE
LOVE LEGS
PNWB LUES
GUMB OOTS
Ohmygod I LOVE hot nut holders.
And hot Calgarians, but not scary looking face masks. (I thought she was some horribly disfigured burn victim...)
And Frilly.
But then, you've gotta love Frilly...
Foffing hors categorie.
Where IS McFly, anyway?
Where's McFly? Where's McFly? Why doesn't anyone ask what's happened to me? Or did I morph into Flammer? Maybe we're all the same person.
Its working Babbs! Once I gave the slip the slip, it does look like boots, leggings, & a tunic. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself.
Flammer by day ... by night it gets worse. Much, much worse:
Yaaaay!
That's the secret to fashion, anyway... it's all about confidence.
Condensed ammonia in a syringe bulb is so last century.
My dog fills his syringe bulb with 151 proof rum.
It impairs eyesight when applied externally or internally.
He says he got the idea from friends.
My dog also wishes to point out that Mr. Smith is the only person who has inarguably committed crimes in the otherwise unverifiable New York Times report: possession of stolen property, possession of unlicensed handgun, riding after dark without lights, describing oneself as an all around athlete -- okay that last one is only an etiquette violation, but really, there ought to be a law.
This is just my dog's opinion. He hasn't cared for real estate agents since one objected to his sale of a local bridge without a proper real estate license.
Ouch. Flamman Man is much worse than Flammer. Scary, even.
I hope he never rides a bike, cause if he does, he's sure to give the rest of us a bad name.
mmm rum goggles...
Your dog is kindov clever, Leroy. He should run for president.
Leroy is one of the few posters I will trouble to cut and paste URLs for. Though I will say, you might want to ask your dog about embedding the link in html to make it all clicky and such.
Perhaps McFly is using again and he's too high to read Snobbie's blog (that would be really high). Or he's stuck on Gilligan's island.
Irony:
@JB, an exception to the rule that anything labeled "ironic", isn't. (ref. Morisette, Alanis, "Jagged Little Pill")
of course you foff hors. what else are hors good for other than foffing? not much else says i.
also, why is that girl wearing a facemask? is she a hor that is preparing for a facial after a good foff?
Leroy, I like your dog's friends.
JB--that is way too much work and, uh, nice avatar.
KNEEL BEFORE BABBLE'S PINK CANOE! (Me first, please.)
Once she realizes that only freds shop at mec, she'll be off to bikebike. I bet it's even closer to her place.
Ease up on McFly. This is how that shit started with Waldo and just escalated like a motherfucker.
Eating pussy.
Hey! McFly! Where's my homework! It's deu tomorrow!
Hello! McFly!
He went back.......
I had a pedestrian bridge incident once on the University of Colorado campus when we drunkenly drove an old Volvo over a walking bridge that spanned a pond in the middle of a snow storm.
Boy, we were fucked up.
........to the future!!!
I miss Yehuda...
That's not McFly, silly...
Guns don't kill people, P-fars kill people.
And I'm fairly sure you can blame the 50/50 Van Grind on Rob Dyrdek: Car Kickflip
Oh, and who can give me directions to Frilly's place of employment?
Don't tempt me Vegas, you know how I feel about redheads!
Will you be in Louisville? Do you know any Spanish?
Anonymous @4:25
You state that you once had an incident, then state that "we" drunkenly drove. Who was driving?
Would everything be OK if it were a newer Volvo?
Was the pond in the middle of said snowstorm?
Please everyone, use caution when overtaking a pedestrian bridge!
Saw the Calgarian video with the mute on. Kept waiting for her to unzip her sweater until I saw the mask and goggles; then I was in fear of her unzipping anything at all. I REALLY don't want to join her in her Journey to Mental Health, Raw Foods, and Whatever The Fuck Else.
Oh yeah, Congrats to (ZOD). I'm sure his planet is proud, as well as kneeling.
Time for some rum.
Por supuesto. !Estoy saliendo mi trabajo ahora mismo y manejar a Louisville! jaja
1. That is a backside sloppy grind (almost all slappy grinds are 50/50, sometimes a Losi if your really hauling.) In autos, I always think that backside is the passenger side.
2. The NexiBike has been a work in progress for about 20 years. I don't know WHAT the guy from Rollerblade Land is doing in the video, the guys behind share a small workspace in the Dorchester section of Boston.
3. The guy that owns the house/art/math enclave share workspace called The Nexus Gallery hosted Independent Fabrication when they were starting out in 1995. I have ridden two versions of that bike when the designers would stop by I.F. back in the late 90's. Somehow those little thumbscrew lock mechanisms would hold my 6'4", 200 lb. body and the thing was NOT very whippy or noodle while riding. That opening shots of the video "host" look like they are shot at The Nexus.
+1 Yarpo
Why ammonia in a bulb syringe? Respiratory stimulant.
Mr Smith=first doper cyclist. Isn't Brooklyn to Yonkers a suspiciously long haul on a p-far, in full tweed?
...mask ???...thank god !!!...i thought it was the typical calgarian, hockey chick fan who hadn't shaved off last years 'playoff beard' because of the lockout...
...not all canadian chicks are as stylish as a certain 'van' cyclist we all know...
...just sayin'...
Anon @ 5:29,
From what I understand, those dandies were doing centuries on P-fars back in the day. I'm guessing the other PED of choice for those tall-bikers was a saddlebag full of (legal) cocaine.
*chortle*
Well, you know it is just a short five hour drive from StL.
and thirdly, here's some crazy shit that´s going down right now:
it´s getting hotter
JB 3:38, Ironic but so much more informative and less convenient to view from a mobile device than how do I get this linky thing to work?
Well now this is odd.
My dog just Rickrolled me.
Wonder where he learned to do that.
Leroy,
this is not a rickroll
You need a bigger chortle, I'm in California. 30 hours, unless you live in Louisville, Colorado haha. I expect you to have a similar wardrobe malfunction on Thursday when I arrive. (;
That's why I always carry a two foot long mace inside my bib shorts.
And the best part is: it only cost 5 fellatio.
"scorched madly ahead". They don't write them like that anymore. Next time I do a rapid acceleration I'm going to say to myself "I'm scorching madly ahead".
what's all this then?
The casual American attitude to weaponised madness means you all probably don't care, but, hey! Ammonia in your eyes is particularly bad news: it is readily absorbed then turns your eyeballs into soap over the following week:
Nasty! If you must contemplate the use of chemical warfare techniques on your fellow man, more recent techniques e.g. pepper spray will more likely cause temporary rather than permanent incapacitation of your opponent...
I am trying to reconcile not shooting up Motley Crue's Shout out the Devil and finding out that Lance is doing Oprah.
So Lance was doing you for three hours in NYC on multiple occasions and found you tolerable.
Now he is going to be Oprah for ninty minutes in his house on his red L couch.
Do you feel like you are also doing Oprah?
Guns N' Ammo-nia! Fuck Yeah!
babbles...maybe you should consider all of this...
All right-y then! Not to worry, there's always some mishap in the wardrobe dept. Ask the guy who sits across the hallway from my office. Its gotten to where I don't even bother apologizing anymore.
I think Snob felt an affinity to Calgary girl because of her desire to remain anonymous. Maybe she's Bike Snob CGY. Is there a BSCGY? She's not very snobby. MEC - MEH.
affinity with? I dunno.
gersplishida - I consider all of the girls in the ad hot. Does that count?
It's the strangest thing. This phone may not swim, but it seemed to hold its breath alright. Still fine...
Maybe someone secretly sucked all of the air out and nano-coated it when I wasn't looking.
Frilly - yer funny. xo
Mine provides a nano-coat after you suck all the air out of it, too.
But give me a minute and I will be up for a back-side sloppy grind.
In a van....
Down by the river....
I don't even know how I ended up here, but I thought this post was great. I don't know who you are but
definitely you are going to a famous blogger if you
are not already ;) Cheers!
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This is not fair, because snobby didn't know lance whore was going to do the Oprah.
Verb retard is fine, just never go noun retard.
Also, if you want free crap at least get their name right:
fu'k:it
Dear Mr. Anonymous 6:52 AM-
Talk about coincidences!
I was looking for Christian Louboutin shoes and wound up here.
Honestly, what are the odds?
Verb retard is fine, just never go noun retard.
Also, if you want free crap at least get their name right:
fu'k:it
Blogger Douglas Carnall said. Does anyone care enough to comment on my comment?(tears)
BSNYC
What the hell man?
You are going to be on Oprah with Armstrong?
You have now lost all of your punk credentials bro jangles.
Babbles, that works for me just fine.
And Frilly, has the guy across the hall blocked his door open so as not to miss the next 'mishap' ?
Did I miss something?
Guy across the hall: I am sorry you are travelling today because I feel confident I have everything locked up tight. Yesterday was a disaster however I think you'll agree last Thursday when my dress kept getting caught in the BUMP & I had to yank it out everytime I stood up was worse. See ya when ya get back!
Taking vulva pressure readings.
Maybe...just maybe they are like 2 lap dogs that are in the heat, as they say, and they want to get out and get randy.
Coincidentally is the guy across the hall named Randy?
Dollar van drivers have special licences don't they? You know, licenses to kill.
Dollar van drivers have special licences don't they? You know, licenses to kill.
I'd love to KNEEL BEFORE FRILLY.
cycle
Happy Canadian @ 7:06: Will the 5 Fellatio be replacing the 1 Loonie as an official coinage of the realm in Canada?
Anonymous said: "You state that you once had an incident, then state that "we" drunkenly drove. Who was driving?
Would everything be OK if it were a newer Volvo?
Was the pond in the middle of said snowstorm?"
I told we were fucked up..
Top Ten popular Female Singers in the World, Indian Singers, Pakistani Singers and American Singers hot News and Images
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Really amazing cycle riding.
Nanotech News
genetic cavities |
One girl's twistedly fantastic interpretation of what the hell is really going on in those tribes.
Thursday, May 10, 2012
Hell To The No
What do spears, battle axes, crossbows, swords, and microbes have in common? They are all violent weapons used in the pursuit of wealth and power. Way back when in the olden timey days of the Middle Ages, knights and foot soldiers would hurl either sharp pieces of metal or teeny tiny microorganisms at one another. In a world where microscopes didn't even exist yet, a soldier knew the power of the protozoa. Late at night, while the castle slept, scientifically savvy soldiers would fling a diseased corpse over the castle walls and then, giggling in their suits of armor and sigils, they'd sit and wait for the magic to happen. Oh, it wouldn't be an immediate magic. Nor would it be a bloody magic. But eventually, little devil microbes, or pathogens, would squirrel themselves out of the rotting corpse and into an innocent lady in waiting. After what I assume was a lengthy gestation period, said lady would cough, gasp, and then fall over and die. Protozoa power, activate! In more recent years, microbes, or microglobules if you will, are still used as weaponry. Scary, creepy, "Is that dried blood in your panties?" weaponry. The goals are still the same: wealth and power (plus $500 for new shocks) and the road to victory is long, arduous, and full of hair. Thank god it's almost over. Let's recap, shall we?
The night is dark and full of terrors. A fire crackles in the foreground as we find our street urchin people musing about Kat's ironically sardonic exit. A pruney southern drawl from underneath a crusty hat begins the scene, "Oh mah gawd. When she said it'd be funnay. Oh mah gawd." A nicknameless Sabrina nods in agreement and shouts, "Ironic!" Tarzan (Greg), however, thinks to himself how silly these womenfolk are. They should have gotten rid of him instead. And now, he and his subplot are free to squirm their way into the top three.
But first, he has to make it to the top four. Tarzan pulls aside Handlebar (Kim) and advises that she take Jugs (Alicia) and ChaCha (Christina) to the end with her. Jugs isn't well liked and, well, no one will vote for ChaCha. Handlebar likes the plan, but worries whether or not she can trust Jugs to take her to the end. Tarzan assures her of Jugs' loyalty, but warns her against the evil Prunes (Chelsea). Prunes is Handlebar's biggest threat and it would serve her well to kick her to the curb sooner rather than later. Sounds good to me!
Just as Handlebar is worried about Jugs' loyalty, Jugs is worried about Handlebar's loyalty. The great mediator Tarzan poo-poo's away Jugs' worries and promises to hype her up for a win once he gets on the jury. Tarzan is a man with a plan, a segmented plan. A) Don't be the first one voted off. B) Make it to the merge. 3) Get to see his wife. D) Go on a panty raid. If he gets from A to D and still doesn't win the million dollars, no skin off his hide. His Jeep will pay the ultimate price, not him. No shocks for you, Jeep!
The sun rises on another day and we find Prunes in quiet contemplation. In quiet contemplation is how I like my Prunes. Silent like the dead. Quiet like a corpse. Maybe we can get Jugs' sister Leticia to kick Prunes in the voice box. It's just an idea. Alright, so Prunes is sitting around watching insects devour one another when it occurs to her that the game is all tied up right now. 3 to 3. 3 for them. 3 for me. Being that it's Even Steven means that someone needs to leave one threesome and join another. And who better than ChaCha? "If ah pull outta r'ward, I thank ya need ta eet," she tells ChaCha. "That's so sweet," ChaCha replies.
Once Prunes has reeled in ChaCha with promises of sustenance, she switches gears and tells ChaCha that Tarzan absolutely cannot get to the final three. With all of those men on the jury, he'll surely get all of the votes. Prunes also thinks that ChaCha is in an alliance with Jugs and Tarzan, but ya know, that's just her talking out loud. La dee da.
So Prunes la dee da's herself away while ChaCha scurries back to camp and reports all that she's heard. "I just had an interesting talk with Prunes," ChaCha says. Handlebar's mustache turns up in anger at the thought of Prunes once again doing more damage than good. If only Handlebar could get her to shut up. Call Leticia, Handlebar! I've got her number right here... 555.KICK "If Prunes wins an award she'll take me, but she thinks that I'm in an alliance with Jugs and Tarzan. I think she wants me to join the other alliance." Handlebar strokes her goatee in a panic. Has Prunes blown her cover?! She's worked for 30 some odd days fooling these chuckleheads and for Prunes to ruin it all with her big mouth would be a nightmare for her.
The second she's able to get away, Handlebar runs over to Prunes and tells her that ChaCha blurted out their whole conversation. Prunes whines, "Shut uuuuup! That makes me want to kick ChaCha's ass." Why? Because you were a big mouth butting in where you don't belong? Because you are single handedly unwittingly dismantling all of the hard work that Handlebar has done? I'm telling you if Prunes was out of the picture, Handlebar could spend her days waxing her 'stache and eating coconuts. 99% of her game play is fixing Prunes' big ass whiny mouth mistakes.
And this brings us to the big Reward Challenge. For today's challenge, you will race to release a disk by spinning around it. Once you're good and dizzy, you'll race to another station to do it all over again. Once you've collected all three disks, you will use them to form a decoder. Then, you will use the decoder to give you three numbers to solve a combination box. The winner will get to go on a yacht where they'll get a shower, cocktails, a three course meal (more damn food!), and a bed to sleep in for the night. Survivors ready, go.
Spin, spin, spin. The Oceanic Six run in circles around their disk stations. To everyone's surprise, Sabrina gets her disk free first followed by Handlebar, Jugs, Prunes, and ChaCha. The dizzy ditzes move on to their next post where... spin, spin, spin... Sabrina is once again in the lead. Prunes and Jugs keep a close pace with Sabrina, but we all know that Sabrina will give out any second now. Things like challenges, competition, work, strategy, game play, etc aren't really Sabrina's forte. She's a nice enough lady, but let's face it. Bo-ring!
Spin, spin, spin... as predicted, it's Sabrina's nap time which gives Handlebar, Jugs, and Prunes a chance to catch up. With everyone at the decoder station, we hear it. That whine. That infernal incessant whine. She only talks in whines. Ever. "Dimplesssss I thank I 'ave itttt." Whine, whine, moan, moan. *burble* Prunes wins, but I'm not giving her any exclamations points like I usually do. The only way I'll decorate her name with punctuation is if the words "dead" or "voted off" are in the sentence.
And now it's time for Prunes to pick two people to join her. ChaCha leans over and picks up her backpack. She's ready to go! Kindly direct her to the yacht Prunes. "Fair is fair. Ah pick Sabrina an' ah pick Handlebar. Fair is fair!" ChaCha looks around herself in confusion. Jugs catches her eye and does a pantomime of a throat being slit. Now everyone is confused! Does Jugs mean her deadly mimes for Prunes or ChaCha? Knowing Jugs, she means everyone.
Rest easy ChaCha. Out of all the yachts in the world, that's the last yacht you want to end up on. First off, you're trapped on it with Prunes. Secondly, you end up in a cult. What I like to call The Cult Of No Personality. Look in their eyes, what do you see? The cult of no personality. I know your anger. I know your dreams. I've been everything you want to be. I'm the cult of no personality.
Back at camp, Jugs is fit to be tied. She's livid! *thwack!* There goes a tree she kicked. *harump!* That's the sound of a boulder being thrown into the ocean. *spernickle!* And that there is the sound of crab legs being pulled off of a dolphin. That whimper you hear is Tarzan crying. Oh Jesus, batten down the hatches! "She said she was going to pick fair like she plays the game?! And then she picks Handlebar?!? Oh hell no! That's not fair! And she told you she was going to pick you! That's not fair!" With anger in the breeze and assault on her mind, Jugs wants to make sure that she, Tarzan, and ChaCha are all on the same page as to whom they vote out next. "We're voting Prunes if she doesn't win the next Immunity." *glitter falls from the sky*
At home I put up some streamers, aimed a flashlight at the disco ball over my bed, and retrieved two giant bowls of glitter from the refrigerator. Try chilling your glitter the next time you dunk. Nippleicious!
So Jugs wants to force Handlebar to pick a side and stand by her word. Tarzan suggests that if Handlebar comes back from the Reward suggesting they vote out one of their own, then they'll know she's turned. Furthermore, Tarzan believes that Prunes and Handlebar are their biggest threat in the game. They'll easily win over Jugs and ChaCha in the final three and, most likely, they're working together as a team. Tarzan sneaks in a little, "So, you know, you should probably just take me to the final three." *smacks self in panties on head* Subtlety Tarzan, subtlety! A little grace please. Some dignity. Jugs is a loose cannon who needs to be finessed into making a decision. When she's leaking battery acid like she is right now, it's best to back away slowly and duck from her nipple darts.
*pew pew go the nipple darts* Jugs turns to ChaCha, "Do you want to sit next to him *points to Tarzan* or Handlebar in the final three?" ChaCha demurely replies, "I think him." "Alright then, it's Prunes or Handlebar," Jugs declares. Look at that! Jugs is taking charge and making some swift moves. Good on her! I always knew she had the will to disembowel and bleed her victims dry so it stands to reason that she'd be sneaky and try to take out the strongest player. This is gonna be so good. I can't wait!
Another day is gone and today Tarzan has awoken with a hunger that only some coconut steeped in buff sweat can satiate. Today he's a making a meal fit for a king. Screw the women! He's gonna prepare his coconuts like he likes him. Dipped, trimmed, and boiled tender. Then, after he's done with breakfast, he'll do some laundry in a poo bath and wash his hair in the food pot. He may be defeated later in the day by someone of the opposite sex so it's best he enjoys what time he has left in a manly way. Staring at the coconuts bobbing up and down in a boiling pot of buffs, Jugs declares, "I can make that better!" "I'm making it how I like it, not how you like it," Tarzan murmurs. "But that's a dirty buff!" "I've had inner bowels in my bare hands," Tarzan replies. Huh? *scratches head*
That's it. That's all it took. Jugs' pendulous breasts have now swung back in the opposite direction as she tells Handlebar about Tarzan's plan to discover whether or not she's a traitor. *puts glitter bowls back in refrigerator* I hate these people! I hate them all! How hard is it to make a decision a stick with it. Especially a decision that benefits me. I don't mean to be selfish, but it's all about me! I can't deal with a Sisters Grim final three. I can't! *holds one of Jugs' nipple darts to throat* I'll cut myself. I will!
Jugs not only tells Handlebar everything Tarzan has up his sleeve, but she also tells her how Tarzan is going to sway the jury to vote for Jugs to win. Handlebar replies, "He told me the same thing!" The two stare into each other's twinkling eyes and nod. They now know what they have to do. They have to not get Tarzaned. In this particular situation, "getting Tarzaned" means letting Tarzan get to the end with ChaCha. Jugs' reply to that idea is -"Hell no! Hell to the no!" And then she went off on some ghetto Puerto Rican (her words, not mine) tangent about how she's the queen of the social game and the most powerful player ever. The social game in the ninth ring of hell? The most powerful player of a game of nipple darts? I'm not sure where Jugs thinks she is, but it's not here in crappy Survivor: One World.
And here we are at the big Immunity Challenge. Come on in guys! For today's challenge, you will use fish hooks to pick up bags of puzzle pieces. You will then use the pieces to complete a puzzle in the shape of a fish skeleton. To make it a little more interesting, you'll do it with one hand tied behind your back. Survivors ready, go!
The Survivors gingerly scoop up their fish hooks and teeter over their respective puzzle bags. Handlebar hooks hers first with Jugs right behind her. The other Survivors quickly follow suit and, with Prunes in last place, they begin to complete the lowest section of the fish. This is a challenge we've seen before, isn't it? Little flickers of a past Survivor season are flashing in my brain. Did a man win it? A douchey man perhaps. Help me out Survivor wizards and let me know in the comments.
So anyhow, pick, pick, pick, the fish continue to grow and it's shaping up to be a battle between Jugs and Handlebar. Only, hold up! The swift and stealthy hands of a surgeon have come to play. Tarzan deftly places bone after bone. But then he tries to attach cockles and marzipan and falls behind again. *sigh* Oh well, good effort Tarzan.
In the end, it's a win we're not sure we wanted... JUGS WINS IMMUNITY!!! I mean, I'm glad it's not Prunes or Handlebar, but Jugs isn't thinking straight anymore. She's living in a parallel universe and telling all of her secrets to the one girl sure to beat her... Handlebar. Maybe someone will boil some socks in with the dinner and change her mind again. Fingers crossed.
Back at camp, Jugs is doing the Jugs happy dance. It involves a lot of shoulder shimmying and goes, "Look at me now! Look at me now!" The dance is suddenly interrupted with a burly cry of, "You bitch! I should have won that. That wasn't even athletic!" *sighs and shakes head* It's Tarzan. It's weirdo loud mouthed Tarzan spitting "Bitch" in a tribe of women. I gazed forlornly at the refrigerator door as I knew deep down inside that I wouldn't be taking out my bowls tonight.
I then sat with my chin in my hand and dipped a couple of Lexapros into my gin while Jugs went on a power trip on my TV. "This is all about me! I control three votes! What I say, goes!" No, no, no. You do not control three votes. You control one vote. You're like a scullery maid thinking she's the Lady of the house. It drives me crazy when these Idol holders or Challenge winners think they are omnipotent. Cra-zy!
So while Jugs is busy beating on her own jugs, Handlebar is telling her sheeple that she's convinced Jugs to get rid of Tarzan tonight. Sabrina stares up into Handlebar's blue eyes and is completely mesmerized. Lapis pools of magic. Robin's egg orbs of deliciousness. Sabrina's own eyes are merely spinning pin wheels as she hypnotically nods and laughs at all Handlebar has to say. "Oh you did? Ha ha ha!" *laughter tinkles on the breeze* That's all Sabrina does... tinkle laughter.
Handlebar then moves on to Prunes. Probably in a preemptive strike to get her to keep her mouth shut, Handlebar tells Prunes that she might be on the chopping block tonight. Prunes replies meekly, "Or I could play your Idol." Handlebar sits in stony silence for a second and then replies, "It depends on how I'm feeling." Oh snap! Go find your own Idol, Prunes. Mooch. Prunes stares off into the distance when a wandering ChaCha enters into frame. Prunes lips go thin as she furrows her brow, "I cayn't ba-leave she'll be here longa than me!" It infuriates Prunes that ChaCha does nothing yet lives to see another day in the game. Fair is fair! *eye roll* One of these days, when I care, someone will have to inform me what exactly it is that Prunes has done to merit staying over ChaCha.
So while Prunes is frowning and Jugs is gloating, Tarzan is left to stew in his own thoughts and put on lady clothes. When in doubt, go Phillip Sheppard. I knew it was an act! Have you ever noticed that when the tides get rough and the chatter thickens, Tarzan is just around the corner pulling out some whacky stunt? And here he stands, right before the vote, with crusty panties on his head and a woman's bloodied tank top on asking, "What? Oh this old thing! Those microbes are long and dead by now. Now watch me do the flamenco." I'm telling you, it's phony. Phony baloney. Jugs watches Tarzan hitching up his petticoats and wonders to herself if maybe she should just get rid of him. Is Handlebar playing her? Is Tarzan playing her? Oh hell, she'll just vote them both out because in JugsLand she has infinity votes.
And now we arrive at Tribal Council. Dimples turns to Sabrina and very seriously asks her if she's surprised she's made it this far. Sabrina replies that she is not surprised. Not only that, she can still win! Ha! Rrrright.
Dimples then asks Tarzan how he's still around and Tarzan replies, "Only by the grace of panties... errr, I mean God. The grace of God." Dimples presses him for specifics and, to my surprise, Tarzan candidly admits to helping the women getting rid of the men. Some Carson Daly looking dude on the jury gives him the finger while another guy crawls out of a tree stump and asks, "Oh, we're still playing?" Yeah I know, they're a memorable bunch.
Tarzan goes on and confesses that tonight might be his last night, but if anyone wants to take him to the end. Great! He'll go. Plus, who'd vote for a millionaire to win. Hold up. Rewind. Who would vote for a millionaire to win? Did Tarzan just say he was a millionaire? Monopoly money doesn't count Tarzan! Nor do those chocolate covered coins you keep in the treasure chest at the foot of your bed. I've seen your Jeep (scroll up). A millionaire would buy that hunk of junk some parts... and wheels and such.
All in all, Tarzan is simply misunderstood. "The crusty panties and this blood here *licks bloody spot as crowd groans* nothin' but microbes! And I know everything about microbes. They don't! Bacteria, fungi, algae, protozoa. You name it, I've wrestled with it." As this is a man who operates regularly on marine life, I'm inclined to agree that he's worked with algae before. How do you suppose he does his hair transplants. Algae, bitches! Grows like the thicket on Handlebar's upper lip.
Dimples then asks Jugs about everyone's reaction to whom Prunes picked to join her on the Reward. Jugs says it was fair to pick Sabrina, but not so fair to pick Handlebar. Just look at Kat, delicious candy coated with perfect hair Kat, who picked who she liked and then got sent home! From the jury section, Kat, sleek in her bob, mutters my favorite line... "Bitches."
Bitches indeed! Alright, let's vote another bitch out, shall we? I could have crossed my fingers for a Prunes vote, but we all kind of knew the panty raid had finally come to an end. Tarzan is the 13th person voted out of Survivor: One World.
So, what did you guys think of last night's episode? Did you want Tarzan to go home? Why does Jugs think she can beat Handlebar? Will everyone fight to take ChaCha to the end? Finally, who do you want to win Survivor: One World? My vote goes to Horatio.
Speaking of votes, it's time to vote for your Favorite Player. The Bitchy Survivor Blog officially endorses Nina Acosta and here's why: She's a fan of the blog, she went out looking like a zombie, and she's holding a gun to my head right now. Just give her the $100K dammit. I want to live to blog the Philippines.
And, if you've enjoyed what I've done here this season, I ask that you please click on my PayPal button and show a bitch some love. I know it hasn't been the best of seasons, but hopefully I've spread a little joy and tinkled all over it with glitter.
Monday's finale blog will be up later than usual so look for it sometime in the evening. Comment it out bitches and have a great day!
Posted by Colette Lala at 12:43 PM
I could have sworn I saw Prunes headed north on I-95 on Tuesday (I'm in Maryland) It was a white BMW convertible, petite blond driver that looked like Chelsea - and here's the clincher, she was wearing a camouflaged baseball cap.
She may have been heading up to NYC for pre-finale taping.
Anyway - that was another boring episode, with absolutely nothing worth commenting on. I never once dipped my balls into glitter, but I did have a couple shots of Bourbon to mix with my Zoloft.
As always - Lala makes it better
MD in MD
The immunity challenge was from Redemption Island. I had to check to see who won it, but it was Ashley. They blindsided Grant in that episode.
I don't understand why they continue to make plans to get Handlebar or Prunes out but they keep letting Handlebar or Prunes in on the plans. These miserable excuse for survivor contestants have absolutely no game!!
Was Kat crying because Tarzan wore her crusty undies on his head?
Another great blog Colette!!
P
I'm no Survivor Wizard, but wasn't the Fishbone challenge on the first Redemption Island season (the one Rob finally won after flunking "Survivor School" 11 times? Really, CBS could've just written him a check and moved on without putting him on a season. Did he really have to go through the motions? Snore. IhateRob!) and Ashley won immunity?
And I am SO with you on the Prunes thing. I can't believe she made it to the finale. Will Kim just stick a fork in her please? I'm done! Been done for quite a while. She is so sanctimonious and hypocritical. "fayer is fayer!" She's just so yucky!
Prunes is a Medical Sales Rep which is another name for a Pharma Girl. Which means if she doesn't marry a rich doctor the medical/pharma company will kick her to the curb when she is 40 and she will be selling suppositories to hospitals. Sorry, but I think some doctor will enjoy giving her his suppository and they will raise little whiny Southern belles and Citadel grads together.
Here is a guy who also noticed a lot of RealityTV hotties are/were Pharma Girls:
Whether you like Chelsea or not, she deserves to be on the list after she is voted off.....hopefully soon.
Are we missing something? Are Juggs, ChaCha and Sabrina going to unite in a triad of the weak and make a move against Kim? Someone has to takedown the Queen. Taking Chelsea down will only give Kim a chance to manipulate one of the weak and/or dominate immunity challenges.
Keeping Tarzan around probably was dangerous. Who knows if he could stick with a voting bloc or would he have shifted next week for no other reason than he his unpredictable. I am not convinced he would have gotten the votes of the male jury members as evidenced by the finger. He probably had an opening, but didn't play it well and become Juggs' trusty bosom-buddy. It's hard to play the anti-social game because at some point you have to be trusted. Boston Rob trusted Phillip. Also, can playing crazy or being crazy really win you the game? Phillip seemed genuinely crazy and so did Tarzan. Waiting for the final three survivor who played crazy and says ha-ha got ya. I was only fooling!
If you think about, this season actually has a lot in common with Survivor: Redemption Island. Handlebar is Rob, Tarzan is Phillip Sheppard, that fish challenge is featured in both, and the (likely) winner of the game effortlessly dominated a season with a weak field of contestants. I am obligated to give Handlebar credit, just like I did for Rob; but, COME ON! This is way too easy. The nitwits around her are practically delivering the million to Handlebar's doorstep, first-class. And I have a suspicion that she might have even thrown that last challenge, not wanting to reveal just how in-control she really is (notice how long it took her to retrieve that last bag with the hook).
Other than her facial hair, Handlebar has shown that she cares about appearances--she wants to entirely control the game, but be somewhat devious and inconspicuous about it. Though I do not like her, she does deserve to win. But the jury is bound to expose her to some extent, so, if Handlebar takes Sabrina and Chelsea to the end (which would be a relatively poor selection) maybe Sabrina can pull off the upset. If I had my way, then that would be the scenario. We'll have to see on Sunday.
The odds for the win: Handlebar 85%, Sabrina 14.9999%, Prunes .0001%, Jugs 0%, Cha Cha 0%
J-Bird
I also thought Kim threw the challenge and I'll be the first to throw out she may have offered to share some of the winning cash with the dimwits, needless to say she will never pay up.
Prunes looked so different after that shower on the yacht. I kept looking at her post-shower scene with the camera guy and saying to myself, "She looks so much better encrusted in dirt." I guess the inner hillbilly in me was attracted to her dirty, dirty layer of filth, nail-on-a-chalkboard twang and blacken, microbe-infested fingernails.
And for whom am I rooting in the finale? No one. But I am rooting for a tie. A sweet, delicious tie vote for the winner (presumably between Handlebars and Prunes). But that might be wishful thinking, as most of the men probably will vote for Handlebars and her mustache out of respect for that much testosterone.
Clearly, Prunes deserves to still be around because she has her face jammed further up Handlebars ass than ChaCha does. Pretty simple, and revolting. I don't know how Prunes can justify her existance when she hasn't done a single damn thing the whole season but piss and moan. She only won the spinning dizzy reward challenge because she walks around in a permanent state of vertigo anyways.
I hope they don't let the whole team of people who dream up challenges on extended holiday again next season. We just saw the fish skeleton thing last season or the one before. And how lame, the contestants didn't even have to put the 'fish bones' in size order, just jam em in there.
And yes, poor Kat was crying because Tarzan fashioned a headband out of her grungies. Not sure why that merited tears, but in Candyland, apparently it counts.
Colette - thanks for making this sucky season still funny!! I'll show a bitch some love via Paypal on Monday, after I get paid (grin)
Didn't get to see the Big Show last night. Turns out too many unwatched episodes of "Two Broke Girls" and "History of Vodka" have rendered my DVR impotent. Knew I could count on Lala to entertainmentize the few high points there may have been, though.
I'll probably skip the finale due to anticipated lack of drama and presence of the Fallen Heroes segment, where everybody says nice things about the people they've hated/forgotten about for 39 days.
I may catch the reunion show just to see Kim get her check and Colton get booed. And the tease for next season is always interesting. As much as I may complain about the survivors, the challenges, the same old same old, I know I'll be back in September.
Perhaps they can revive the fallen survivor walk of remembrance where every terminated survivor is represented by a grave-like signpost. The ladies can then urinate on each one on there walk to the final tribal council. I would watch that. On second thought, I wouldn't even be interested in that final either.
All of the running during challenges must have had one of Jugs' jugs hit her head one to many times. It's the only explanation to her delusions of being able to beat Handlebar. Only bad luck can hurt Handlebar's chances now...
Time for a better job of finding strong competitors CBS...
I believe Tarzan earned the "California Howdy" for admitting he helped the women vote off all the guys.
Thanks again Lala for your summary which was WAY more entertaining than the actual episode. And yes, Kat muttering "Bitch" was truthfully the only memorable part of it.
I think Tarzan decided to get a little strategic and show some signs of intelligence one vote too early.
Can you just imagine if he kept quiet and Prunes was now pruning at Ponderosa, well the Glitter Bowls would be all empty and we would all be singing "Joy to The World"
If the season and it's predictability continue, then Handlebar will surely be sitting in the final Tribal Council. The confrontation Troyzan has with her would be something special I would hope.
I know it is an extreme long shot but I would like to see Cha Cha win just because, well just because she is not annoying, boring or loudmouthed and does not wear dumb looking caps either.
Below is a link to Ashley winning this exciting immunity challenge from Season #22 (an even more boring season than this one)
I would just like to say a big thank you for your blogs this season, they have been very entertaining and have kept this season and most of the players a little interesting, well some less than a little interesting I am sure. Thanks again.
Apologies for the link, it kinda did not appear the way I hoped.
*yawn* Is it over yet?
Lala, I wish you would've bogged the Amazing Race this season. It was actually a bit entertaining with my Hillbilly team (I am so depressed they lost), and *shudder* Brenchel.
I will probably skip the finale and just come here after its done. You rock.
Lala--You Rock, Bitch! This season was so snoring boring but as always you made it hilarious despite the lack of material to work with. I'm rooting for Cha Cha for no other reason that it would piss off Prunes.
I'll send some love your way next week and I would suggest everyone else does the same for making this ridiculously bad season worth while. ;)
And for what it is worth, I'm voting the S.S. Vagina as the player of the season. She encompasses the seaworthy theme of the C-wordy snatches in the finale.
Gotta send another 10 bucks your way. You are more than worth an hour and some of work, lala. I'll be going through withdrawal until BB starts.
Thanks for another great season, and I can't wait for the finale blog monday!
~Lisabeth aka Elle Rose
Just wrap up the season already, it has become boring as bat shite many episodes ago. With a extra long episode with no-one likeable in it and fairly predictable, the show will be a chore to watch.
My dear Gin-Scented Nipple-Glittered Lala,
Excellent blog per usual! One thing which captured my attention (which was not hard as this season is soooo boring): Handlebar's mustache seemed to disappear or lighten after her shower on the yacht! Do you think the producers put Nair on the counter or she rubbed lemons across her lip to lighten her hirsute adornment?
Keep up the good work! I got your love right here, Bitch!
They are all in NYC right now tweeting away. I wish they would tweet why they were all in a state of paralysis on the show. By now, CBS has pumped up their personalities as best they can, watch for an animated finale, they will be real people for an hour, then they can go back to being zombies. Oh, I don't blame the Survivor contestants, I blame CBS for the selection process, where are the ex Navy Seals,fighter pilots, and firemen from past seasons? We had a female police officer this season, but they got rid of her real fast. CBS is targeting a different demographic than this blog's readers, they had better wise up, the show is on its last legs. I agree with previous posts, this Sunday's show will be real difficult to watch. There will be no blindsides or surprises, Kim has hypnotized the flock, she can't even believe they bought her crap.
Kim ran the show, in my eyes, Kim should win...not that I will care either way about this season.
As for the fish bone challenge i think it is from South Pacific season with ozzy.
*sigh*
Due to Alicia's apparent need to be angry in order to perceive reality, combined with her kryptonite-like weakness to Kim's azure eyes (or whatever quality that bitch has... it sure as hell hasn't been captured on camera) it looks like we might be doomed to a finale with two undesirable outcomes:
1. No drama or laughter.
2. Chelsea sitting in front of the jury.
To combat the Voidy Numbness of both outcomes, I propose a game - I call it the "Chelsea Messyner Balloon-titted Camo' Ballcap Drinking-Smoking-Popping Game". The rules are simple: Every time that personification of everything I dislike in a Survivor contestant mentions the word "deserve" (or derivations thereof - player discretion is perfectly acceptable) whilst sitting in front of the jury, the player must drink a shot of their liquor of choice, smoke their drug of choice and pop their pill of choice. The only qualification required to play is a sense of humour.
Played correctly, this game has an even-money chance of allowing the player to have a pretty good time during the finale night. In addition, there is a reasonably good chance that (if played expertly) the game may completely obliterate the player's entire memory of Survivor: One World. If played poorly, however, there is a chance that the player may inadvertently overdose and die, in which case - Chelsea wins. If she wins, her prize will be to have the surgically extracted sense of humour of all deceased players implanted into her furrowed brow, which, if a critical mass of deceased players is reached, may be sufficient to allow her to laugh at herself and embrace a wider view of life.
And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm overwhelmed by the need to listen to Licence to Ill at EAR SHATTERING volume (vale MCA) while dancing the Cha Cha naked.
You Gotta Fight
For Your Right
To Be A
Glitter Boy...
I'm Fierce!
I am a Glitter Boy...
Whooh!
*sigh*
The only redeeming thing about this boring season is that
the women took out the idiotic men. The men could never
escape the curse of the spell brought to us by Hogwart's
graduate Colton.
I feel compelled to comment on Kim's alleged mustache. If
you have peach fuzz on your face, put some dirt on it and
see what happens. Also ladies, someday you may have hairs
sprouting from some surprising places. Like wrinkles, these will give you character. Salute your hormones
bitches.
Ms. Lala, your blog has been endlessly entertaining
and enlightening. Thank you for all the gin and glitter.
I wish to see Dimples mount a winged pig for his trip to the finale. If the pig has no balls we will have a clear and certain winner.
Horatio for the win!! |
Anyone.
I am much more hopeful of those whose commitment to Scripture's authority is not mixed with political ambition or misguided bureaucratic loyalties. Honest evangelicals know that something is horribly wrong in our corporate life. Too many evangelical churches are spiritually unhealthy due to the extended neglect of basic biblical teachings, principles and practices. At the top of this list is the Gospel itself.
When we interview perspective church members, we always ask them to give us a brief explanation of the Gospel. Some of the answers that we have received--even from long-time members of conservative evangelical churches--have only confirmed in my mind that the Gospel has been significantly neglected in much of American evangelicalism over the last generation. If you want to liven up your next Sunday School party, ask people to take 2 minutes and write down a simple statement of what the Gospel is. Then collect those papers and read them aloud. It will be better--and potentially more profitable--than pictionary! It will probably also be very sobering.
The Gospel is all about Jesus Christ. I teach the people I serve to think of it simply like this: It is the message of Who Christ is, What He has done, and Why it matters. Answering these questions from the Scripture will provide an outline of the biblical Gospel.
Here is a summary of my concerns about spheres in which we have lost or are losing the Gospel in our day.
1. In preaching
I took several hours last spring to listen to a number of SBC seminary chapel sermons. I heard lots about leadership, commitment, courage, faithfulness, sheep, shepherds, prayer and devotion, I heard very little of Jesus Christ. Often Christ was mentioned almost as an afterthought. I realize that this is far from a scientific study (but if you are interested in one that corroborates my concerns about Southern Baptist preaching, see Marsha Whitten's All is Forgiven) but the sermons were preached by well-known and highly respected Southern Baptist pastors. It is not unreasonable to expect that their sermons to seminarians would be carefully prepared. Assuming that to be the case, I came away from my exercise rather discouraged.2. In Christian living
Here is an experiment that I recommend. Get a simple outline of the Gospel in your mind and listen to the sermons preached in your church (even if you are the preacher!) or other churches and try to determine to what degree the Gospel is the basis of them. Too often only some facts related to the Gospel are tacked on at the end of a message in order to justify some kind of altar call, but the Gospel itself is not foundational to it. If a sermon would play just as well in a Kingdom Hall or Jewish Synagogue as it would in a Baptist church, you can be sure it is void of the Gospel.
Very often the Gospel is viewed only as the threshhold into the Christian life by which one must enter the kingdom. Once in, however, the Gospel loses its importance. Where this happens in conservative churches moralism tends to gain preeminence and Christianity tends to be conceived in terms of rules and requirements. In moderate and liberal churches sentimentalism tends to reign and attitudes and actions are evaluated in terms of how "loving" they feel. Do not misunderstand--the Christian life includes both rules and especially love (rightly understood, of course), but the Christian life is based on neither. It is based on Jesus Christ--who He is, what He has done and why it matters. That is why we are called to live by faith. Faith in what? Or whom? The person and work of Christ. This is also why Paul could write, "For to me, to live is Christ." Christ was life for Paul because the Gospel had come to him in power. Read the ethical portions of the New Testament to see how the Apostles exhorted the early church to holy living. It wasn't by moralistic teaching. They teach the law on the basis of the Gospel. I see very little concern for the relationship between law and Gospel in Southern Baptist life today. The reason, I believe, is due to the removal of the Gospel from the heart of Christian living.3. In our churches
The Gospel is the power of God to save all who believe. Churches are to be comprised of those who testify to having experienced this saving power. Of all the sectors of evangelicalism, Baptists most certainly should stand firm on this point. Yet, simply take an honest look at our churches--even good, "Bible-believing," "flagship" SBC churches. What do you find more often than not? Bloated church rolls with twice as many members as regular attenders. The overwhelming majority of our churches have neglected Gospel order, taking cues more from the marketing world or corporate America or therapeutic professions than from Scripture. John Dagg, the first writing theologian among Southern Baptists put this in his Treatise on Church Order, "When discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it." If he is correct, then how many Christless churches might we have within our ranks? Read Revelation 2 and 3 to see that Jesus Himself warns of this possibility. If the candlestick has been removed from a local church then the Gospel has been taken with it.So, have we lost the Gospel? I think we have, in many ways. I know this seems like a harsh judgment, but I do not make it with any joy or intent to harm or even embarass. Neither am I suggesting that every church or evangelical (or denominational) entity has lost the Gospel. Rather, I am suggesting that the Gospel has been forgotten, misunderstood, undervalued and marginalized by many churches and ministries that consider themselves evangelical. We can no longer assume that we know the Gospel and prize it as the transforming power of God that saves all who believe. Such assumption, I fear, has contributed to the Gospel's demise in many churches.
Why even raise this question, knowing that it will inevitably provoke the angst of some brothers and sisters whom I respect and tempt them to dismiss me as a crank or some kind of helpless malcontent? I do so because it is simply too important to leave unaddressed. Too much is at stake. The glory of God in the salvation of sinners is at stake. So is the eternal destiny of many who may think that they are right with God but who are merely religious (Matthew 7:21-23).
If I am right in my suspicions, then all of the many other issues that are clamoring for our attention right now in SBC life and beyond are minor in comparison to this. If we have lost the Gospel, or are losing it, then nothing else matters.
96 comments:
Hi Tom,
I think you are right. This is the central issue. I just graduated from Dallas Seminary (ThM, Historical Theology) and am a soon-to-be former member of the SBC. Last semester Dr. John D. Hannah delivered a lecture entitled "The Gospel Clarified: A Joyful Celebration--Something to Remember and Something to Perpetuate"in chapel on this very issue. Of course, his assessment was not directed toward the SBC, but SBC churches would certainly be included. It was very very insightful and, I thought, right on the mark.
I agree with you completely Dr. Ascol. Many of the people I know who claim to be in conservative evangelical SBC churches in upstate SC simply do not know the Gospel. This is completely evident in the way they live their lives and in the ways they worship. Most of the churches I am in contact with are seeker sensitive and strive to make everyone comfortable. They have 15 minute speaches and say they are expounding the Scriptures when they have no clue of the cultural and historical context of the text they are reading. If people truly understood the Christ-centered Gospel found in the Gospel, they would rid themselves of the sickening man exaulting fluff done at so-called worship gathering. We must continue to reform the churches we have influence in and pray that God would change the hearts of those in authority of the churches without the Gospel. I have no doubt they read their Bible. That in itself has the power to change them. Our rantings can do nothing without the Holy Spirit opening their eyes to the Word they are reading! May God bear fruit in these places that bear His name!
Jay:
Thanks for the tip to Dr. Hannah's message. I will download it.
Reformed Owen:
Our experiences are similar. I think the reformation we are seeing is directly linked to the inerrancy movement within the SBC. When Christians start reading their Bibles with understanding, they become equipped to discern between what is and what ought to be and are motivated by the Spirit to long for and strive for the latter.
Tom-
Be careful, my friend. You might be called upon to repent for this post.
Amen and amen.
It is to our own detriment if we do not take seriously this ominous reality. It will only serve to show that indeed the loss of the gospel is more pervasive than we think. We must get back to the mission and message of Jesus Christ and work together for the sake of His Church.
We came together on inerrancy before, and it is time that we center ourselves and our attention on the gospel and taking it to our increasingly post-Christian world. May God grant us the renewal and revival which our churches so desperately need.
Absolutely right! I revamped my preaching schedule a few months ago when I heard a pastor say on his tv program to simply say these words.... He led them in the "sinners prayer".
I realized I had slipped into much the same line of thinking. If we lose the gospel, if we lose a truly regenerate church all will be lost
At least you're trying to do something about it. Having grown up in one of the few moderate PCUSA churched left in America (and that one is fast going liberal), it is nice to see that you're trying to help your brethren in that denomination.
Brother Tom,
The only thing I can say about you post is AMEN, AMEN and AMEN.
The Blood of Jesus Christ..!!!
Dr. Ascol,
Thanks for an excellent post. On the radio program Issues Etc, Todd Wilken will review "sermons" using a 3 part diagnostic. I can't remember all of the elements, but it basically comes down to, "is the subject of the sermon the Gospel of Jesus Christ"? Until my exposure to the Founders Ministries, Alistair Begg, White Horse Inn, R.C. Sproul and other reformed ministries, I thought the tacking on of "Gospel" elements onto the end of a sermon was normal. I started listening/reading to the above ministries and realized what a dis-service to the Gospel this really is. Since this change in my "hearing" I truely wonder what exactly the unsaved person was supposed to resond to.
On a side note...While visiting the Truth For Life (Alistair Begg) website, there was an announcement that Alistair has been diagnosed with prostate cancer.
Marty:
I hear ya! If I am I will try not to be offended and will try to rejoice in the knowledge that at least our brothers who disagree with us still believe in repentance!
Timmy:
May it be!!
Tom:
I fully understand how that can happen. I experienced something similar years ago. Through dryness in my own soul the Lord showed me that, despite what I thought to be careful grammatical/syntactical analysis of the text in my preaching, for the most part, I was missing the main point of the whole Bible: Christ. It was a humbling, refreshing experience.
Tom,
You bring out some great points. The loss of the gospel in Southern Baptist pulpits and churches is simply tragic. What is even more tragic is that the vast majority of our pastors do not see it. The problems that we are facing in our churche and across our denomination are largely do to a the Americanized, feel-good gospel that is being preached.
These are sobering thoughts.
Hi Tom,
Well written and spot on! How easily we get lost in analysis of the text, but never find our way to Christ. Spurgeon's alleged maxim is correct, "make a bee line for the cross."
Doug Shivers
Bravo! One reason we in the SBC have either lost or minimized the gospel is because we have not fully understood the absolute Fall of man and the pervasiveness of sin, which necessitates the gospel. Instead of a full-orbed Christ-centered, gospel-centered preaching of the entire Word of God, we've subsititued a "simple" gospel thrown into or tacked onto the end of an emotional, "tear-jerking" sermon. Oftentimes, being more concerned with programs, activities, and ministries that keep our denomination afloat, we bypass the true power of God that brings divine blessing and real advancement into the kingdom of darkness. It must not simply be Christ & the gospel initially at our salvation/conversion, but a gospel-centered motivated Christian life that empowers us to the end; remember as Paul said that in the Last Day God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to the gospel (Romans 2:16). Don't worry about the nabobs who cast aspersions. There are people hearing what you say whose hearts resonate with your plea. Keep up the good work.
This is not your first expressed concern but it is your finest effort to date.... many thanks!
Please persevere - and I am very confident you will.
Others who know the truth about which you write will continue to pray and persevere, too.
Do I believe we can experience redemption, revival and reformation
in the SBC?
YES, because I believe in God but it will be painful - very painful.
Tom:
Thanks for the post! This is the main issue ("What is the Gospel?" / "What is the Church?") that needs to be addressed in the modern evangelical scene, particularly in the SBC.
A long while ago I was shocked at some of the things believed by my parishioners. Individuals can live like the devil day in and day out and still expect Heaven; Jesus is not God; unbelievers are not going to Hell; etc. These misguided beliefs all hinge upon a failure to comprehend the Gospel.
Trying to address it in the SBC, at times, is an effort akin to spittin' in the wind. Many who try get labeled as "insurrectionists" or get kicked to the curb as "not being Southern Baptist." I think that is why some younger guys, like the honorable Jay Bennett, are on their way out of SBC life. Am I wrong, Jay?!?
Brother Tom:
I think your post can be summarized in Spurgeons motto for his ministry and his church: "We preach Christ and Him Cruicified".
This is bedrock of Christianity. Here is found all of the essential doctrines of the Bible, because to understand the Cross one must understand the sin nature of man, the righteous and loving nature of God, the need for perfect atonement, Christ's substitionary death, imputation of his righteous to us and our sins to him, the resurrection and continuing priesthood of Christ. And, by the way, it teaches and illustrates the sovereignty of God and the trinitarian formula.
In my opinion, it is because of the Arminian teachings of the seminaries and the leadership of the denomination which have led us to this chasm. No one who truely believes that salvation is ultimately up to man truely understands the cross, and from that point, it is all down hill.
Bless you for trying. May God honor your heart and devotion.
Will
Tom,
This hits the nail on the head. I have thought this since reading "The Cross Centered Life" by Mahaney. I was in a church for almost 4 years as a staff member and then one day it hit me, "The gospel is missing." There was moralisms and even preaching through books of the bible, but we rarely heard about Jesus. Now that I am on staff at a church that loves the gospel, it is a refreshing to my soul.
To: m. jay bennett,
As one who left the SBC many years ago, but came back in, let me entreat you to stay in and not leave. What can you say outside the Convention tommorrow that you cannot say inside today? It is the Convention that has strayed from the theology and practice of our founding fathers, not you or I. I encourage you to stay in, cry out, and make your voice heard.They will have to boot me out before I leave.The SBC needs us now more than ever!
I have much appreciation for your struggles.
I agree completely, Tom. I have noticed the same thing for some time - walk into any Lifeway store and you will get the same idea.
It isn't just that we have quit preaching the gospel, people have quit desiring it. We preach our agendas and to tickle the ears of what people want to hear. Generally, they want to hear about themselves and how their lives can become better and happier. As preachers, our job is to create a taste for Jesus in the hearts of our listeners. You are absolutely right. Paul said, "I preach nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified." If only we could join Paul in that statement instead of doing the opposite.
I'm a little slow on the uptake but just found this blog. I have had many concerns about the SBC for several years now. My question is this: What can be done to help it get back on track? ScriptureSearcher said it can be done (because with God nothing is impossible) but it will be painful. I agree. It seems to me the SBC has been in a "watering down" mode for quite some time. This truly concerns me because I don't see believers getting meat. I also don't see the complete character of God being taught. It seems to me the "good" side of God is continually focused on; not the whole character of God. Some churches do not display crosses because it might "offend" someone. I believe we need the reminder of what Jesus went through for us! I am offended that we tippy-toe around in fear of offending! As much as I have read the Gospel, I don't recall Jesus watering down His message. In fact, in Jesus' conversation with the rich young ruler, the rich young ruler didn't want to get rid of his worldly goods to follow Jesus. Jesus let him go. He didn't run after him trying to work out a compromise! We are compromising the Gospel! It requires more than warm fuzzy feelings to bring it to life. Personally, I see the denomination slipping into a worldly attitude about many things: music, reading, schedules, running churches like businesses instead of allowing God to show His Power and Will. The marketing of the church would not be necessary if we all lived the Gospel. Please do not think I'm saying I have it all figured out! But these are my thoughts.....so.....original question....What do we do?
My first concern, of course, is that you did not condemn the use of alcohol in this post, which makes we worry that you're going presbyterian on us.
My second concern, however, is that the people who need to hear this have already judged you based on the first concern. What I say here in jest they mean as a shibboleth, and unless you will partner with them on their fool's errands, they will not take you seriously about the real matters of bringing Christ to all men, and bringing those who will come closer to Him by the Word and the work it calls us to.
____________________________
Back in 1998, I attended a lunch chapel with my former pastor at the Mid-America seminary branch in Schenectady, NY. The text was Titus 1:1-4. It's a brilliant text to deliver to seminarians -- because it delivers the whole Gospel and makes it a particular burden for the pastor to disciple men to the end of making them elders who lead "for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth".
I will never ever forget that sermon -- because it taught me about what kind of man I ought to be in my church, and it cast such a brilliant light on my former pastor who was still shepherding me even though I wasn't on his member roles because I hadn;t settled down in a church yet.
God be willing that this is what goes into and comes out of our seminaries.
"I realized I had slipped into much the same line of thinking. If we lose the gospel, if we lose a truly regenerate church all will be lost"
Tom B.,
I am glad that you have got back to the foundation of our faith in your preaching. Your last statement, however, raised some questions in my mind immediately as I read it:
1. I believe that God will not ever lose the truly regenerate Church no matter what we do. Remember, God is in control, and if we fail, God will never fail and will raise up someone else to do his will. Ok...that was really a comment and not a question.
2. When you say that "all will be lost", what exactly do you mean?
"Too often only some facts related to the Gospel are tacked on at the end of a message in order to justify some kind of altar call, but the Gospel itself is not foundational to it."
Tom A.,.
re: "I took several hours last spring to listen to a number of SBC seminary chapel sermons. I heard lots about leadership, commitment, courage, faithfulness, sheep, shepherds, prayer and devotion, I heard very little of Jesus Christ."
I would encourage you to listen to the chapel sermons of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) from Fall '06. Though I've heard that SBTS, in the past, went through a kind of "slump" in which the chapel sermons were often not Gospel-centered or expository, for the most part the preaching I've witnessed from the chapel since I began classes here last August could be described as nothing less than excellent. We've been blessed by the preaching of men such as Al Mohler, Don Whitney, and Mark Coppenger, all whom have spoken at Founders' Conferences in the past. We've heard from others from the Together for the Gospel conference, such as John MacArthur and C.J. Mahaney (R. C. Sproul preached here last spring and John Piper will speak here this spring). We've heard from other great preachers as well, such as Russell Moore and O. S. Hawkins. Last Fall one preacher (whose name I forget right now) even preached an excellent, thorough sermon on God's sovereignty in salvation. Though things here are certainly not 100% perfect, I truly believe that SBTS is a place that Baptists in the SBC can trust to provide Gospel-centered, Christ-exalting education to those sent here to train for ministry.
Joseph:
You raise a good question:
>. <<
I plan to write more on this later, but suffice to say here that, as Jesus said, the Scriptures testify of Him (John 5:39). For the sake of argument let's grant your assertion that the Olivet discourse is about the end times. What is the focal point of the end times? It's Christ! We need an expansive view of this point. Paul said that he professed to know nothing among the Corinthians but Jesus Christ crucified. He was not being reductionistic, but asserting how all-inclusive the Gospel of Christ is.
Blessings,
tom
Tom,
I want to thank you for such a passionate post and for sharing this sobering burden. We can't get enough reminders about focusing our preaching (no matter what text we are using) around the gospel message and I thank you for placing that once again in the forefront of my own mind.
I too have been discouraged by the lack of knowledge concerning the gospel message displayed at times by my own congregation. My tendency was once to question solely their own commitment to reading the Bible but I find more and more that it is a deficiency that has grown just as much from a lack of solid preaching and teaching.
In my teaching, I have tried to present my messages in a way that emphasizes the saving capacity of the gospel for the lost and an empowering capacity for those that are saved (please correct me if this is wrong). In doing so I have found that many have no better understanding of the gospel than the Jews did of the law and their faith (as seen in Matthew ch. 5-7).
This is very discouraging but I am glad to know there are many others that feel the greatest thing we stand to lose is the gospel itself - the number one reason behind our lives and our service to Christ and His church. May God keep the gospel at the forefront of our lives, our preaching, and our teaching!
Tom: Your comments, regarding a gospel that is lost in many of our SBC churches, are sober indeed. How would you respond to a young seminary student who asked me last week why we don't preach enough "felt need" sermons within our denomination? I told him that from my perspective, there are many "felt need" preachers in our denomination today and gave him examples of some titles of sermons that I have perused over the internet and listening to some of them from many churches within our convention. I explained that man's basic need was spiritual not "felt",even though I work in my ministry meeting people's needs, I still remind myself from God's word that man's greatest need is profoundly spiritual in nature because of his total depravity.
This young man could not even give a clear answer to what is the gospel in my opinion.
I am astonished that I have spent countless hours and days for the battle of the Bible in my denomination for this!?! No, I know it was not in vain, but it is discouraging to say the least when I heard his answer knowing that he was reared in one of our most conservative churches in the SBC.
Thank you again Tom for all you and the Founder's Ministry do to remind us "... to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints." Jude verse 3
Sincerely,
J.D. Rector
JBuch, Doug, Earl Clay, Will and Charles:
Thanks, brothers. We who see these things in a similar light need to encourage one another to persevere!
Rev:
I think you are exactly correct in your assessment. I am grateful that we have seen some trickle the other way as men of experience and proven usefulness in the kingdom have joined the ranks of the SBC recently (such as Brothter Earl!). But it concerns me that we are losing some really good guys over these issues. I think many of them are willing to stay and contend for the faith if they can be encouraged by some of us with greying and disappearing hair (I qualify on both counts!). May the Lord enable us to do so.
Cent:
As usual, you are correct! Thanks for the great testimony concerning your former pastor. There is a growing number of such men among us who are faithfully serving Christ's sheep day by day. We must never forget this.
ajlin:
Thanks for this good report about SBTS. We should rejoice over all the progress being made there and elsewhere in the SBC.
David:
Well stated, brother. That is the way that I want to preach, as well.
J.D.:
Thanks, brother. I think I would say pretty much what you said. I share your view. The Gospel is what we need because Christ is life. We simply must diligently work to see this ourselves and help our people to see it, including young seminarians.
"For the sake of argument let's grant your assertion that the Olivet discourse is about the end times. What is the focal point of the end times? "
I believe it is generally accepted by scholars (please correct me if I am wrong) that the end times, or coming of the Lord primarily focuses on a day of wrath and judgment on the wicked and a day of deliverance for the righteous. Thus, our Lord uses as an example the story of Noah where all the wicked were killed and Noah and his family were left behind. Certainly, we can see the Gospel of salvation in the deliverance part of this passage, but the context of the passage as a whole certainly deals primarily with the wrath of a Holy God being poured out on the wicked.
"If a sermon would play just as well in a Kingdom Hall or Jewish Synagogue as it would in a Baptist church, you can be sure it is void of the Gospel."
AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!
AMEN!
Brother Blackburn and others,
I understand the "stay and fight" mentality for ministers, but what about laymen? I'm a concerned father. I don't want to leave the SBC, but I want my children to hear the gospel on Sundays and Wednesdays. At my church right now we hear a lot of sermons on forgiveness, facing trials, "storehouse tithing," family, etc. We get all the usual evangelical hot button issues like abortion and homosexuality thrown in for affect. Sadly, straight up gospel preaching has ended.
For the good of my children should I stay or should I go?
Ooops...misspelled "Habbakuk"
Hi Earl,
Thanks for your encouragement. I understand where you are coming from. If I were still baptist I would certainly stay with the SBC. But I have recently shifted to a covenantal perspective. In short, I have converted to Presbyterianism.
Alan Cross,
I feel your pain with regard to LifeWay. I work at a LifeWay in Dallas, TX and many if not most of the books on our shelves deny the cross. By that I mean many of our books deny the full extent of humanity's sin problem by couching redemption in therapeutic terms.
I think the reason this problem is that as a business, if it wants to be competitive, LifeWay has to sell what is popular. The cross is not popular. It never has been, and I don't think it ever will be. A business simply cannot run on the cross and be competitive. The masses will always choose Barrabbus when it comes down to a vote.
The central theme of preaching is no longer Christ and Him crucified, but man and him satisfied.
CT
I seriously doubt I can even organize my thoughts about this excellent post, so they can be understood. But that never stopped me before.
The conditions which give rise to this may stem all the way to the circumstances by which we reach out to people, and how they come into our churches. The Holy Ghost said He would convict lost folks of their guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment. In my own history as a believer, I know several folks who have simply been convicted thusly, and have sought a Savior. They stand out in my mind.
I had lunch with a dear friend today who was saved by God convicting him, almost without any "middle-mortals". He KNOWS what he was saved from, and it sticks out all over him all the time. And I know he loves the gospel, plain and simple.
It seems to me that in the current context of programs of outreach, in which we go out and tell lost folks about the Savior, and invite them to "make Him their Lord", we may be bypassing conviction beyond a nodding assent to guilt. We then have a congregation of folks who never come face-to-face with what they were really saved from.
This has bothered me for some time. Thanks for giving me some space to carry on about it.
Oh .. answers? Who, me? I'm just a guy in a pew.
Dear Dr. A,
Thank you for sounding this call in the SBC.
I encourage all your readers to do a survey of the 12 (more or less) presentations of the Gospel recorded in the book of Acts. Some are long, some are short, some are complete, some are interrupted. Note the common features and the general three-part structure. Then compare these presentations with what is common in the SBC today. And reform your own proclamation accordingly!
Love in Christ,
Jeff
"The central theme of preaching is no longer Christ and Him crucified, but man and him satisfied."
flawedcricket,
What tragically accurate statement! I think you will agree with this great, recent quote from Vern Poythress:
."
Do Modern People Have Room for the Wrath of God? Jan. 17, 2007
Tom:
Excellent post brother! This is an issue near to my heart as well.
The gospel has been truncated and marginalized in too many evangelical circles today-and sadly, even among reformed brothers.
The law is seldom proclaimed in most gospel presentations; repentance from sin is no longer front and center; the Lordship of Christ is an after thought at best; justification by faith is forgotten; the wrath of God and His anger against sinners is considered out of date and passe; the call to deny self, take up a cross and follow Him is too offensive; and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is now considered to be unnecessary in gospel proclamations--even by reformed brothers.
And if you do hear some elements of the gospel preached today, it will have an anthropocentric, synergistic emphasis.
"We preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord..." That should be branded on the doorposts above every pastor's study in America.
Lastly, some in the SBC and in reformed circles have adopted a romantic view of God as a frustrated suitor or powerless lover who is begging sinful man on bended knee, to take the engagement ring of salvation. He is presented as One who is powerless to act and impotent to save until depraved man decides to accept Him.
God helplessly waits on man to "decide and follow Him."
How perverted is this view... Instead of picturing God begging sinful man to "marry Him", waiting for man to accept the proposal - why not picture sinful man on his knees mourning over his sin, crying out in repentance for forgiveness of his sins and that the Lord would show mercy upon his soul granting him saving faith by which to confess Jesus as Lord; that the dread Sovereign of the universe would accept him and save him.
This "almost gospel" can only produce "almost Christians."
I thank you dear brother for your constant uncompromising dedication to the whole gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot piece meal out the truth and tease lost souls with only a fraction of its life giving truth. We must proclaim the whole counsel of God in evangelism, imploring men on behalf of Christ as His ambassadors to be reconciled unto God.
God has not stuttered--He has spoken clearly in His Word about His gospel; may we not edit its message and remove the offense of the cross to simply appeal to men; as if Christ needed our methods and techniques to do His eternal work. The gospel itself IS the power of God unto salvation... amen?
As my dear friend James White is fond of saying, "what you save them with; is what you save them to." Such is the plight of seeker sensitive, emerging and emergent churches where the audience remains sovereign--not the message. People want to feel God today, but they do not want to know God today.
In a time where even just this last week the leaders of the church of Scientology declared Tom Cruise "the new Christ" and said he is to be worshipped in the future for his spreading of Scientology; in this generation we need to boldly present the whole gospel and nothing but the gospel unashamedly, in love, and with fearless courage. We should never speak of hell with dry eyes and treat with a cavalier attitude the cross of Christ as if it were a comic book.
There is an offense to the cross; may we not make void its power, by trying to dumb down its truth in order to make it "relevant."
As Luther said, "I would rather preach the truth with too great a severity, than to ever once act the hypocrite and conceal the truth."
The cross is a radical thing...
Sola Fide,
Campi
2 Cor. 4:5-7
I heard a sermon at a PCA church last Sunday on the self-cenetered ness of God, truly the opposite of seeker sensitive bologna Gospel stuff you are talking about. Even so, it had Christ as an after thought too. It used words like supralapsarian and other big vocab that means nothing to most people. (being a theology guy even I didn't find it relevant)
It was as if someone decided to be so opposite the trend you talk about that they took it to the opposite extreme - and still forgot about Christ. We truly need Christ to be the center of our teaching. This is not a calvinist/reformed issue.
I must say, about Paul's "I preach nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified," that he is saying much more than that single statement, as was Christ to the two disciples in Luke 24 as he opened their eyes to the Scriptures...showing them nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified. It makes me think that many equate the meaning of the gospel to the call to salvation, not to the revelatory witness from genesis to Revelation.
On the seminaries, I have had maybe one prof (who is now gone) that I would suspect uses the sinners prayer, but none to ever teach it. Further, the closest I have heard to arminian theology is the rejection of one, possibly two, of the five points. (And to respond to 50% of the blogosphere: The closest I have heard to armenian theology was this guy visiting from Russia.) So from my vantage point, I am not seeing the seminary doom and gloom. In fact, I have a greater measure of optimism. Further, your post echoes what I am being taught in seminary. It is too bad some don't see the far-reaching implication in giving it a black eye for political or "ethical" motivations...
On the gospel, it is interesting the concept of the loss of the gospel, which is in fact, by implication, the loss of the full counsel of God and His redemptive plan. Therefore, it must be assumed that a "recovery" of the gospel will manifest itself in a strikingly profound way- it will expose the people in the pews (and perhaps behind the pulpits) for not living in a manner worthy of God (1Thess 1:10-12). It will, as Dever surmised to be the solution to an ailing problem, "close the front doors and open the back." It will not, however, suddenly create a denomination that acts or behaves like they are saved. In other words, to recover the gospel, one needn't look past the pulpits. For from the pulpits, people's behavior and expectations and consumerism mentalities will be exposed for what they are, and what Christianity is not. (For this reason, folks, I pray you would set out to nurture our seminaries and our seminary staff, pray for them, and support them with sound exposition and visits to impart wisdom and friendship.) It makes me wonder what the regenerate church membership resolution would look like applied retroactively in all churches who made it covenant.
On Lifeway, not that I am pointing to particular commentors in this thread (I am not), but I have detected logic run amuck recently. I have read some of the same criticizers of Lifeway defend the preaching of modalist TD Jakes at the upcoming conference on [html code for strikethrough> the gospel[/s> efficiency. I have heard some other criticizers defend open theists and those that eject doctrine to foster open lines of communication with gen x,y and z. And, I am more than optimistic that our new Lifeway head will seek the face of God in his leadership.
On your post, Dr. Ascol, what do you think a radical recovery of the gospel will look like in the SBC?
Excuse me, for the above reference should be 1 Thess 2:10-12.
After the last comment I feel the need to clarify my previous comment with regard to LifeWay.
I would not defend T.D. Jakes's preaching or the doctrine of open-theism. I consider both herterodoxy.
Also, my comment was not meant to criticize LifeWay for having bad books on the shelf, but to simply point out that the books on LifeWay's shelves are emblematic of the systemic denial of the Gospel among evangelicals in America.
Personally I think the term Christian business is an oxymorn. There is no such thing. There are Christians who own businesses but not Christian businesses.
I would criticize LifeWay, because they claim to be a Christian business, for trying to be so competitive that they are willing to sell a false gospel.
I think LifeWay should decide, like the church, whether they are committed to competitive growth or doctrinal purity. If they are committed to competitive growth, then doctrinal purity should be abandoned. (BTW, this is occurring on some levels anyway. LifeWay is committed to not stocking its shelves with authors like Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn, but if a customer wants to special order those books we'll do it).
If they are committed to doctrinal purity, then the push to be a competitive American business should be abandoned. The two simply will not happen simultaneously this side of glory.
To Habakkuk,
There is a wrong way and a right way to leave a church. I understand the dilemma you face with your family. I suggest the following:
1) Approach your Pastor and express your love for him and express your appreciation for his endeavors to give the Word of God to the people. Then give him a booklet and ask if you could share with him somethig that has blessed you. Then in a week of two do the same. Two booklets I recommend are: 1) "Preaching" by Al Mohler"; 2) "The Cross: A Vindication of God" by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Both are published by Banner of Truth and cost only $2.50-3.00 each.
2) If that doesn't help, ask to meet with your Pastor. Graciously, carefully, and forthrightly express your concerns. Then give him either "A Cross-centred Life" by C.J. Mahaney or "Preachers and Preaching" by Lloyd-Jones or "According to Plan: The unfolding revelation of God in the Bible" (IVP).
3) If that doesn't work, then look for a good gospel-centered church that expounds the entire Word of God froma Christ-centered perspective.
In other words, don't just simply walk away without saying anything and giving your Pastor an apportunity to gorw and mature in his preaching. I know several Pastors who have been won over by gracious, well-studied laymen who took the time to help them..
To Jay,
You can be covenantal and still be baptistic. I've tried 3-4 times to become a Presbyterian, but my exegesis would not allow me. If I'm not mistaken, Bro. Tom did his Ph.D thesis on the conenant theology of Witsius. Dr. Fred Malone recounts his struggles and journey from Presbyterian to Baptist in the booklet "A String of Pearls Unstrung." Also, his book "The Baptism of Disciple Alone" by by Founders Press is a solid read. I think it has not be sucessfully answered by any paedobaptist. Furthermore, if you contact Reformed Baptist Publications at (562) 944-3366, they will send you a booklet entitled "Covenant Theology: A Reformed Baptist Overview." I completely understanding your struggles. Let me encourage you not to "throw out the baby with the bathwater."
I hope these quick comments help.
Brian:
You are absolutely correct--this transcends the intramural Calvinistic-Arminian debate. Like you, I have heard sermons that were very God-centered but that had very little or nothing of Jesus Christ. I must admit to my shame, I have preached such sermons. Those who respond to the concerns raised in this post by dismissing them as simply another attempt to "push Calvinism" demonstrate that they simply do not get it. And that is true regardless of what position they hold or how many academic degrees they possess. Thanks for clarifying this.
Colin:
Great question. When I read the exhortations that come from the Gospel preaching and teaching of the Apostles, and consider the kind of life that is held up to us as examples of the Gospel coming in power upon people, I think I could best summarize my answer by saying that there would be a renewed, widespread manifestation of the Spirit's fruit. The convention will change when churches change. Churches will change when members change. Members will be changed by the power of the Spirit as He applies the Gospel in their lives enabling them to live by grace.
Steve:
Good words. Thanks, brother!
Earl:
Thanks for those recommendations. Fred Malone's book is excellent. Founders hopes to publish a revised edition of it later this year.
Jay: "I think _______ should decide...whether they are committed to competitive growth or doctrinal purity. If they are committed to competitive growth, then doctrinal purity should be abandoned."
Very true. So true, in fact, enter in any noun you want: American Christianity, the church (like you had), the politicos in the current controversies, emerging movement, seeker-sensitives, the touted "cutting-edge" evangelism programs... Jay, I would also urge you to decide what you are committed to. If you are committed to preaching the gospel at all costs, despite man and his machinations, why should you be bothered by the politics of the SBC enough to find new friends?
Steve: Sounds like your friend had the same advice as Adrian Rogers, "What you catch them with, you have to keep them with."
Dr. Ascol: I think we will see what you describe, but more specifically: drastically reduced membership, a broadscale public and media attack on the "SBC Fundamentalists" who are rejecting people's "desired" membership, a renewed attack by baptist moderates, many more churches without pastors, and an unexpected humbling of all calling for these things now. Can you imagine the gospel's taking hold, and church members who begin to question how much football you are watching, how much golf are you playing, what kind of television programs are on in your home?
I can hear Brian Williams now, "America's largest Protestant denomination is telling over half their membership that their qualifications aren't good enough anymore..."
May God bring us to revival as you describe.
There are many different reasons why the gospel is not preached or included in sermons, but to me another glaring ommission from modern sermons is sin. According to I Corinthians 15 "Christ died for our sins." Without understanding sin, his own sinfulness, and the penalty for sin man will not truly see his need for salvation, nor understand what true salvation is, and what the gospel truly does. In writing to the churches, to believers, Paul, James, and John talked about the struggle with sin. So it not only is a pre-salvation issue, but a post salvation issue as well.
In preaching to felt needs pastors do not see that the issue underlying felt needs is sin. In preaching the gospel pastors forget that the reason man needs the gospel is because of sin. That is the reason for preaching both law and gospel, because through the law comes the knowledge of sin, and not just sin before salvation, but the sin we must deal with post salvation. Sin is truly the great enemy of man. It brought about our death, it seeks to master us, it is what we are tempted to do, it is lawlessness and rebellion against God. It is Satan's greatest tool as it is my sin and your sin that wounds others and impedes kingdom work. Sin, the great enemy, was what was put to death at the cross as Christ became sin on our behalf, and according to Romans 6 is what we have been freed from through our baptism into Christ.
So in our thinking through the losing of gospel in the SBC, maybe one of the biggest reasons is that we have lost sight of our sin.
Morris:
I agree with your thoughts. The whole reality of sin I would put under, "Why it matters." Sin is transgression of the law, and one of the law's purposes is to stand, unwavering, mercilessly showing just what God requires and, by the Spirit's illumination, just how far short of that we fall. But where God's law is not clearly understood or preached, the knowledge of sin will be diminished.
Colin:
You may well be right. Without a doubt our churches would begin to appear on paper to be much smaller than what we typically report now. And humility would characterize our relationships more than is the case now. As the Puritan John Flavel once said, A crucified style best suits the servants of a crucified Christ.
Having read the helpful additions in Dr. Tom Nettles' updated, revised and expanded edition of BY HIS GRACE AND FOR HIS GLORY, I urge all readers to contact by computer, telephone, regular mail or smoke signal Founders Ministries
and order your copy ASAP.
If I were financially able (if oil or gold is discovered in my back or front yard) I would buy
and distribute MANY copies of this
OUTSTANDING BOOK BY ONE OF OUR MOST FAITHFUL SEMINARY PROFESSORS.
This historical and theological classic is filled with the TRUE GOSPEL OF OUR SOVEREIGN GOD.
Evangelist Charles Rosson
[email protected]
."
Earl,
Thanks for the recommendation on the book. I am currently in the middle of about 2-3 different books, including Sproul's "The Last Days According to Jesus", so it might be a while before I can get into the other one.
In response to your other comments, let me say that I didn't state that the Olivet Discourse was only about end time events. I did, indeed, acknowledge that the message of redemption is part of the passage. If you, however, look at the context of the passage as a whole, I think it is abundantly clear that the primary purpose of the passage is to warn about the coming wrath of God in the Last Days at his coming. As a matter of fact, I would dare say that a good 95% of the passage deals with his judgment against the wicked.
Tom,
A perfect example of your current blog topic "Have we lost the Gospel?" is a local Baptist church here in Northern Virginia that has sermon series on losing weight.
The sermon series is entitled “Bod4God”.
See the link below
Refbaptdude
Steve
Earl M. Blackburn,
I have read Malone and commented on his thoughts briefly here.
In short, I think Malone's argument is okay, though not sterling, if you accept his assumptions. But its at the assumption level that the baptist perspective differs from the svoenantal perspective. I thought Malone did a poor job recognizing that difference throughout his book.
I've also read Schreiner's and Wright's new book and commented on some of Schreiner's thoughts here. I came away with similar conclusions as when I read Malone.
I think a baptist could call himself covenantal, but I don't think a baptist could be consistently covenantal in the traditional sense of the term. I think the term covenantal has traditionally meant that the Abrahamic Covenant is essentially the same as the New. The baptist approach simply will not allow for that.
colinm,
According to my understanding at this point, which is surely flawed on many levels, I have decided that I am a committed covenantalist. I have not left the SBC because of any political wrangling. Anyone who would do so has missed the point of Independency. I have left the SBC because I have come to belive that the Reformed/Covenantal perspective is to be preferred over the Baptist perspective.
Thank you. As a pastor, I feel your pain. It's hard sometimes to preach the gospel and see so many eyes glazed over. Many folks have walked the aisle, said the "sinner's prayer," etc., but sometimes it's hard to tell who is trusting in Christ alone. I hope I'm wrong, but I fear I'm not.
But . . . I love my baptist brothers dearly! I am so excited about the movement to reclaim the gospel in SBC churches through ministries like Founders. I am so appreciative of men like Tom Ascol and my pastor Eric "Gunny" Hartman and my spiritual family at Providence Church who are willing to stand up and say something about what matters most, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All you guys give me great hope about what God is doing and might do in SBC churches over the next few decades. I've got nothing but love for you all. I commend you and encourage you all to keep the faith.
Your brother and friend,
MJB
Dr. Ascol,
THANK YOU for articulating what I think for some time has been a growing longing among SBC laity. Many of my brothers and sisters are quietly clamoring for gospel-centered preaching. I am attending the pastor's conference this week at First Baptist Jacksonville and so far all of the keynote speakers (Mac Brunson, Junior Hill, Jerry Vines, etc.) have focused on this theme.
BTW, John Sullivan is scheduled to speak tomorrow night. We shall see if he mentions the new FBC alcohol policy. :)
Jay,
Part of the problem/situation is that Lifeway is not a ministry of the SBC. In other words, it receives no SBC funds, but is self-sustaining.
While they may want to put out some good slooge, they need to cover their expenses. If it was a ministry, they could lose money and not be concerned about appeasing Barrabas.
Incidentally, me thinks Jay the Bennett is still a Baptist at heart and I haven't given up on him. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more)
By the way, GREAT Dr. Hannah lecture, brother. Danke!
One of the great discussions I've been having with Jay on the side is the tenuous position of being covenantal (per the traditional WCF exposition of it) and not having children as part of the covenant.
It's fascinating stuff and I'm just glad we get to have such discussions instead of just opining about our favorite Left Behind novel or the merits of The Prayer of Jabez vs. The Purpose Driven Life.
Oi vay!
Hi Gun!
Yep. You're right about LifeWay. Unfortunately, they don't view themselves as a business. They view themselves as a ministry. I sat through 4 hours of training videos a couple weeks ago where I was told over and over again that LifeWay is a ministry. The actual phrase used was, "We consider selling a ministry." And I never heard the words sin or atonement, though a part of the training was dedicated to encouraging associates to lead people to Christ. Compared to other retail outfits though, LifeWay is a fine atmosphere in which to work.
I don't know about still being Baptist at heart, but I will always have baptists in my heart. Happy Valentines Day!
That Hannah lecture was good! I want to be friends with it. I think I'll give it another listen tomorrow.
I always enjoy our discussions too. What a joy to search the depths of the wisdom of God in Christ with dear brothers!
MJB
Allow me, as an Australian, to use an American cultural "thing" as an illustration..
Lance:
Aren't you glad God gave us 2 Tim. 4:1-5! Those verses have kept me going on many occasions.
Kingofbleh:
Thanks for the encouraging news from the J'ville conference!
Onesalientoversight:
Well, put, mate!
Brother Tom:
As a laymen, we are blessed in my church to have a pastor who preaches the gospel, week end and week out. We are a solos church, of whcich I am so thankful for.
Having read your post and those that have responded, may I interject that though you have identified the effect, the cause has not been readily identified. The cause in my humble opinion is that too much emphasis is made on numbers, both in people and in dollars.
Having attended a church where the emphasis was "mega-church" the gospel as we know it and as you so readily defined it, was not preached. It is not preached for if it were, it is unlikely that we would have so many "mega-churches". I stress again that much of the problem is the image that many of these pastors seek and the reputation they desire to have. If that were not so, then they would not have a mega-church pastors meeting each year.
The other reason that we see a lack of solos scriptura (if I said this wrong, remember, I am a laymen and not as trained and well versed as those posting), there is an extreme lack of church discipline both in the congregation and within the pulpit. We are seeing a good ol boys network now and men will not stand or speak up for the truth. It is no wonder that the gospel has been watered down to nothing more than a feel good remedy to help one get what one wants in life. Jesus has been reduced from the Savior, the Son of God, the Great I AM, to a vending machine that will dispense all your wants, needs and desires, you need only ask. Think not, ask Joel Olsteen or discover your purpose in life by reading RW's book , because Lord knows you won't find it in the bible.
I have ranted long enough but I wish for all of you pastors to know that there are some out there who truly want to hear the gospel and they don't want their ears tickled. To Tom and all of you, stay the course, fight the good fight and Finish Strong.
Shalom
Mark Borofsky
."
Those are some powerful, but true words, One Salient Oversight. Sadly, they were once true of me, even for a time as a minister of the gospel. As I am growing in grace in my daily walk with Christ I am appalled at how shallow I have been in the past in my walk with Christ. It is going to take solid gospel preaching that Pastor Ascol has advocated combined with a powerful outpouring of God's Holy Spirit to convict and revive us.
I do know that in the past year my wife and I have talked to people who have been attending the seeker-friendly, user-friendly churches who are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the shallowness of the preaching and the worship services. God is stirring up hearts, but if we don't take Romans 10:17 seriously, then we are going to miss our opportunity to speak to the true needs of our decaying culture.
May our great and Sovereign Lord Jesus give a revival of true religion in our land in this dark and trying time.
Here's what I think is an interesting question: Have many of today's churches reduced the mandate to be, as we are going, discipling to inviting someone to church?
Maybe I'm on a different page here, but I truly am amazed how many people are focused on inviting people to their churches rather than telling their stories about the change Jesus has made in their lives. Could this be part of the breakdown in "losing the Gospel"?
Dr. Ascol: Haven't lost the Gospel since the day He came into my life. Every where I've been the Gospel has gone with me. He lives within me, walks with me and I'm privileged to be able to share with others why He does that.
I cannot speak for other churches. I know that I've never been a member in a reformed church, nor had a pastor who was reformed. In fact, I can't say that in my 51 years as a Southern Baptist and twenty plus years as a minister's wife, that I've ever known any folks who attended a Southern Baptist church that was reformed.
So, no. I haven't lost the Gospel. And I don't count myself as belonging to "the crowd that judges any criticism or questioning of the 'post-conservative-resurgence' SBC to be an act of war".
I do find myself, questioning the legitimacy of your concern, though. Not because I think you aren't sincere. Not because I view your view as illegitimate in itself. But because you have "no hope of persuading".
How can one even begin to reach a world of churches to see their need for change with "no hope of persuading" them? SelahV
P.S. I thought Calvinists didn't believe in persuading anyone anyway.
Selahv
I find your post to be, at best disingenous, at worst, an attempt at blatant sarcasm.
Dr. Ascol's exact words were "Anyone."
His point is simply that there are those in this denomination who will not accept any criticism, no matter how well founded. He works as hard as he does on this blog and other outlets because of his concern for churches and his desire to see them return to the gospel.
Unfortunately, your words also betray a sad lack of knowledge about what "calvinism" and "reformed" really mean.
In HIS Name
Will
Will: you are correct. I have a sad lack of knowledge about what Calvinism and reformed really mean. In fact I have asked repeatedly for the differences of the two to be explained to me. (and if there are differences, then what are they) And all I get for my inquiries is more reading material. Which I read. But unlike many who are going to seminary, I am not afforded the opportunity to ask of my professor a question in regards to a question in my mind on the doctrines of grace or the abstracts of principles. Therefore, if I come across as sadly lacking in knowledge, dear Brother, it is not for the lack of wanting that knowledge.
As for your assertion that my other statements were either disingenuous or blatant sarcasm, I'm going to say you are entitled to read my words in whatever perspective you so desire.
Our Lord knows I spoke as a person who was reading a blog that posed a question: "Have we lost the Gospel?"
I was assuring Dr. Ascol and others that Jesus was alive and well in Lawton. If you don't believe me, come visit our church. I'm sure you may find some things we do objectionable, but we preach Jesus, we love Jesus and we share Jesus in our church. And we grow disciples. Not all are as equipped as the Apostle Paul would want them to be, but we are all doing our best to teach Jesus. So to whether or not we must be reformed, I guess I will have to take the fifth. I don't know what you mean by being reformed.
But I have never ever ever been a part of a reformed theology as I've read it explained on this blog and a few others. Maybe I was too busy sharing my simple faith in the only way I knew how. But as I understand the Gospel, it is about Jesus. And the flow of his blood is from cover to cover in the Holy Bible. And the fruit of the Spirit is evident in all who believe. And in that fruit there is no worms of doubt or confusion.
Perhaps I assumed too much. I thought Dr. Ascol was referring to a crowd as those who didn't agree with Jesus as the Gospel. So I'm wrong? So that is a faction within the SBC? A group of folks who just play church? Or just a group of leaders within the SBC? Shucks, Will, I'm no authority on this stuff. I was just pointing out to Dr. Ascol that he mustn't be without hope if he wants to persuade folks to be reformed. (whatever that is)
And I still say the same thing about Calvinists and persuasion. I was told that by a Calvinist--albeit, I don't know what kind of Calvinist. Persuasion is not necessary with a Sovereign God. And please, dear Will, understand, I'm not trying to persuade you to believe me, here. You don't know me. I don't know you. I haven't gone to your webblog and you probably haven't gone to mine.
You may have read this statement I made to Dr. Ascol and surmised what you did as fact. If that be the case, then fine--I can live with your disdain. I think Dr. Ascol is sincere in his burden. I am sincere in the health of my heart, too.
I've refrained from commenting here many many times, because I have not felt welcomed. In fact, each time I've come here, I've found someone like you who splits every syllable and dissects every phrase I make as if I have a coded message in my comments.
But this was one question I was compelled to answer. If you feel it was blatant sarcasm, I beg your forgiveness and the forgiveness of our host and his readers. Since you've basically pronounced me ignorant and sadly lacking in knowledge, I'll leave you folks to expound on your knowledge to each other.
You have to admit, though, I make a pretty good example of the unreformed in need of reforming, don't I?
See, Greg, I told you I can't talk over here. SelahV
" And the fruit of the Spirit is evident in all who believe. And in that fruit there is no worms of doubt or confusion."
Selah V,
I have a few question about the following passage in 1 John 5:13 in light of what you have written above:
"13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. "
1. To whom is John writing this letter of encouragement?
2. What is the stated purpose of the letter?
3. Why do the believers need assurance that they have eternal life if what you have written is true?
Thanks.
Selah V
I am no way a great student of the bible (though I am doing my best to learn more and more)and often times I rely on my sons for their honest and intelligent input. However, I am intelligent enough to not only understand what Brother Tom has written, but why he has written this and posed the question, "Have We Lost The Gospel" I have no reason to doubt that you are sincere in what you think is the truth and you are blessed and fortunate that your husband preaches solso scriptura. However, Lawton is not the rest of the country and if you travel around as I have, you will find that this is both an unfortuante but fair question to ask.
The easy believeism that is out there, the "just follow me in this simple little prayer and mean it" mentality is one of the many things that causes us to ask the question that has been posed here.
Having left a church that was a mega church and a pastor with a mega ego and mega desire to be in the limelight and to "preach sermons prepared in 15 minutes or less; I got mega fed up and left. I am blasting the notion of mega because for the most part, I think the mega mentality has done much to help reshape and redefine the gospel to what it is today in many SBC churhces. By the way, if you question the notion that the gospel is lost, please explain the theology and doctrine of those in the BGCT and other GCT's.
It is because people such as your self, who refuse to recognize the the plight we are in, that will drive this question of the lost gospel to a point whereby many will call Brother Tom a nay-sayer, trouble maker and (Lord forbid) a calvinist. I do not mean to be disrespectful and I applaud you for making your post and for expressing your view. But, in my opinion, you are wrong. The question posed is legitimate, accurate and necessary.
My biggest fear is that Brother Tom and others like him, Dr. Mohler, Piper and other great and learned men are being dismissed, because they could very well be rocking the "mega-boat" and stepping on good ol boy traditions.
Give me a church with 200 people where that church is solos christo, solos scriptura, solos gratia and all the other solos (I told you, I am not a bible scholar)and I will take that church over Saddleback, First Baptist of Jacksonville, Prestonwood (or as my oldest calls it, Prestonworld or Six Flags over Jesus) or any other mega-church. I am not saying that a large church can't be a reformed church, but typically, it became large because someone scaled back the gospel in order to be attractive to all the people.
As a final note, and this is my honest opinion and conviction; if I don't leave a service where my heart has been pierced, my thoughts rampant with questions and some conviction, either I was not listening or the pastor watered down the gospel. If I leave the service and I am feeling really good about myself....something is wrong. Praise God my pastor preaches the gospel so that I do ponder, I do think, I do seek forgiveness and I do ask God to create in me everything that is the Lord and remove from me everything that is not. In my day, we called this discipleship and disclipleship comes from the true and honest gospel.
Shalom from completed Jew
mark
Hey SelahV:
Glad to hear from you again. Yes, I think you were misunderstood by someone who hasn't read your posts before. You are indeed a great sister.
I haven't read the posts that followed yours and the first misunderstanding response.
It is obvious that many churches are preaching the Gospel, but many in our SBC are not. I had a guest preacher this week as my pastor was away at the 1st Jax conference. Well meaning local church planter in our Assoc. He gave a nice little talk about rearing children. I did learn from it, but I was not told about Jesus until the invitation. That is what leads to losing the Gospel. From what you have written before, you and your godly pastor husband remember the centrality of Christ and His Gospel when He saved you and now that He sustains you.
Grace Alone,
Greg
Hey folks back off. SelahV is actually a visitor without an agenda except to learn more about her Lord. Remember to practice Matthew 18:15...check out your sinning brother or sister in private first and you may find you are misunderstanding them.
Greg again.
Dear Joseph Botwinick:
I don't know what you are asking me, here. Are you referring to a statement I've made elsewhere? As to your three questions in reference to what I said, what exactly do you think I said?
SelahV
Shalom CompletedJew: If you read carefully my first comment, I said I could not speak for other churches. And I am sorry to hear there is so much emptiness in our SBC churches as you all are reporting.
I haven't lived in Lawton all my life. In fact my husband's ministry has been in Kentucky...from rural to city. We've been around a few blocks though not the whole country. But again, I must repeat...I do not speak for all churches.
I was simply sharing a good report from one of the sisters in the SBC. Now, from now on I'll keep my great reports to myself. Or rather, share them where optimism abounds and can rejoice with me.
Can't help you with an explaining "the theology and doctrine of those in BGCT and other GCT's. Not familiar with all those folks.
Never said it wasn't a fair question to pose. I was simply giving an answer.
Sorry I got everyone's tailfeathers in a stir. Chalk it up to the fact I'm a dumb woman and stay out of the men's clubs.
SelahV
Guys,
Heard two very stirring sermons tonight from Dr. John Sullivan and Dr. Johnny Hunt. Both continued the theme laid out by Drs. Brunson, Hill and Vines yesterday. Clearly there is a call going to these pastors to keep their passion for the gospel central in their ministries. There were only two very indirect and vailed references to the reformed ressurgence but for me they were vastly outweighed by their call for gospel-focused preaching. Even heard an indirect endorsement of "Simple Church." :)
Clearly we have overwhelming common ground in this area that we must all work towards, regardless of your slant on the doctrines of grace. As Dr. Ascol has said on this blog before, I would much rather work with a warm-hearted Arminian who is sold out for the gospel than a cold-hearted hyper-Calvinist any day. My prayer is that all involved with this conference (and throughout the SBC) will not allow their zeal for the gospel to retreat as they return to the "real world".
Selah V,
Clearly you and your husband are not in scope for what Dr. Ascol is discussing. If only more of the church leaders and ministry professionals in our denomination had the same passion for Christ and His gospel as you, we might not even need to have this conversation. But with so many churches today abandoning any talk of repentance from sin, the substitutionary atonement of Christ and the absolute objective truth of His word (i.e. the Emergents) this problem requires our intense focus and vigilence. This need is evidenced by the attention it is getting at this week's FBC Jax pastor's conference. I strongly suspect/hope we will hear more about this same theme in next week's NC Evangelism and Church Growth Conf in Raleigh (both Brunson, Hunt and Frank Page are scheduled to speak) and in Jerry Vines' Power in the Pulpit events throughout the year.
Thank you for your post and for reminding us that there are still people out there with a hot heart for the gospel of Christ. Your candor is very encouraging to me.
Hello Greg B! Glad to see your warm words too. I've been busy blogging. Got several sites going at once these days. Am getting read to wrap up a series of posts I did on the fruit of the Spirit.
Thank you for coming to my aid over here, but I think I've worn out my welcome. Drop by my site sometime. selahV
kingobleh: a friendly voice. praise the Lord, I was just getting ready to leave. But you are kind and so I read what you said. About "the emergents"...are they a new church group within the SBC or are they a group unto themselves? Thank you. selahV
Selah V,
I am sure others in this blog who are ministry pros could answer you more succinctly than I, but here is my somewhat-informed understanding of the Emerging Church movement. Emerging Churches are characterized by a strong emphasis on personal experience and emotion as the medium of God's revelation of the gospel rather than the word of God. Their theology is heavily influenced by postmodern culture and thinking, and their worship style is almost indistinguishable from modern hip-hop and rock concerts. They do not recognize that truth can be revealed or relayed through words and therefore deny the infallibility and innerancy of scripture. The SBC has given support to some of the more moderate emergent churches either as NAMB church plants or by simply recognizing their rapid numerical growth. None of these churches that are affiliated with the SBC display their affiliation openly, and most of them contain the word "Mosiac" in their names.
If you would like to know more about the movement, there is an excellent primer on the Emerging Church movement at Mark Dever's site 9marks.org.
Correction...."Mosaic"
Here is a link to an article by Ed Sezter at the NAMB which might be a bit more descriptive of the NAMB's "official" stance on Emergent Churches:
Greetings Pastor Tom,
I could not agree with you more on this entry. A pastor once told me that to what extent a church grasps a proper understanding of the doctrine of Justification by faith alone, will tell you how far they are from the true gospel of Christ. It is unfortunate to see state that the church is in today across all denominational lines.A continual prayer of mine is that God would prepare the hearts of men in creating a climate that is condusive to a proper understanding of the doctrine of Justification by faith alone. Thanks again for thought provoking article!
Hi M. Jay Bennett,
Do you believe that it is possible for someone to be both Baptist and Covenantal in their theology? I have been studying this very issue for just under a year now and believe that the answer is yes. The biggest issues seems to be the nature of the New Covenant and the working of the CoR through the CoG in it. Maybe this is not the place to discuss this but you definitely sparked my interest. feel free to email me [email protected]
kingobleh: I think my comment to you just got gobbled up by the Cyberdemon. so I will try posting it again.
Thank you brother, I will look at the site today. I appreciate your kindness. May it be returned to you a hundredfold from those you encounter along this journey we call life. SelahV
Tom and everyone else too:
Here's a blind spot that we need to think about and it's popped up again right here in this comment thread. A LOT, A whole bunch, dare I say MOST Southern Baptists are woefully lacking in any sort of theological education. You can't get that from sitting in an SBC pew Sunday by Sunday and chances are, if you get any references at all to the great theologians of the past its in quotes, snippets, or sermon illustrations.
So when a layman like myself hears about 'reformed theology' and 'Calvinism' it has to stew for awhile. Say a year or two. The few references he gets collect. Finally he works up the nerve to go ask his pastor about it and the poor man jumps out of his skin. The pastor tries not to show his concern though his head is awhirl. If he gets any SBC papers at all, he knows this is, for some reason, a hot topic. Not a nice one either. He remembers the resurgence. Thoughts of retirement flutter about and then he reacts in one of two ways: 1. He regurgitates all the bad things he's heard from other pastors and read in his papers or 2. He says, "Well I'm not sure but you can read this book or that book and it should help." Theres probably a 'three' in there somewhere that involves faking it too.)
The point is that unless you all are willing to take questions like 'Whats the difference between Calvinism and being reformed?' at face value no one is going to learn anything.
The learning curve is pretty steep gents. If you ever want to get IT above 10% someone needs to figure out how to put in some rest stops along the way.
Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."
--2 Timothy 2:9
Josh: I especially liked your statement about rest stops and answering the question I posed on my Q&A blog at face value.
Since posting here, I've received some input from the "kinder gentler" folk within Founders readership. Let me tell you that it is refreshing. They have not talked above my head, nor condescendingly patted it. They have not been threatened by my earlier posts, but have encouraged me to "come back to the table". They've assured me the men's club has a section for women. I hope that is true.
Let me say up front, that this comment is in no way meant to be sarcastic. And the following questions are not meant to provoke, bait or incite. It's simply been eating at me since yesterday's responses to my first comment. I've been praying about it and I am even hesitant to ask, but decided I needed to make at least one last stab at communicating here.
Do the pastors, leaders, elders and fellow reformed believers address inquiries from people like me in the same manner in which I was addressed yesterday? Do these same reformed folks perceive all questions put to them as a criticism toward their theology and doctrine? I spoke for myself yesterday, not other churches--nor other members of any other churches. I was excited to share that my Saviour was alive and well in my life, my church and my town. For that I was rebuffed. Is it because my Saviour is offensive? I am offensive? Or I am incapable of communicating in this forum?
I see our host has moved on to another topic, so this may get lost in the general rush to move on to that discussion. Should anyone care to talk to me, you can click on my name, email me, or visit my webblog.
Should you not, I wish you the greatest blessings of God. May His Grace be sufficient to meet all your needs and abound. May His favor be upon you and all wisdom be yours as you seek to share Jesus with a lost world. selahV
"Dear Joseph Botwinick:
I don't know what you are asking me, here. Are you referring to a statement I've made elsewhere? As to your three questions in reference to what I said, what exactly do you think I said?
SelahV"
I think when you said:
" And the fruit of the Spirit is evident in all who believe. And in that fruit there is no worms of doubt or confusion."
...that you were stating that if one is saved, they will not ever doubt their salvation. If that is not what you meant, then please accept my apologies. If it is, then please answer my three questions.
Thanks.
Hello Joseph Botwinick:
I'm very sorry, Joseph, but I've gone back through the comment threads and cannot for the life of me find where I stated the statement you quoted me as saying, which I repost here, "And the fruit of the Spirit is evident in all who believe. And in that fruit there is no worms of doubt or confusion."
I am not saying I did not say it, because it does sound like something I said. However, in order to give you a complete answer I need to know the context in which I said that. If you would be ever merciful on my forgetfulness, I'd appreciate you telling me where I said that. And then, of course, I will respond.
However, so as not to inflame you or have you think I am avoiding your questions, let me accept your apology up front. Because I do not believe I was speaking of salvation in that statement above. If I was talking about "fruit of the Spirit", I'm talking about the fruit manifested within a believer via the Spirit of God. Evidence of the Spirit.
In the Spirit's fruit there is no worms, no doubt. A believer is both flesh and Spirit. So if there are any worms or doubt, they would be in that believer's flesh--not the Spirit. Therefore the fruit would be wormless and without doubt.
I hope I've communicated and clarified what I think I said whenever and where-ever I said it. To your questions, I beg off at the moment because I do not think they apply to my thinking process at the moment.
May His grace be sufficient to meet your needs and abound. selahV
SelahV,
This thread has gotten somewhat convoluted (which often occurs in internet communications where we cannot see each other's expressions and intentions). Here is my meager attempt to sort out what I am reading. You intitially indicated that the premise of the original article that we have lost the gospel is not true on a personal level - that those whose lives have been transformed by the power of the gospel still have a passion for it. AMEN and AMEN.
Dr. Ascol's original article I believe was not aimed at anyone on a personal level, but rather towards evangelicalism in general and the SBC and church movements in particular. There are trends and movements within churches calling themselves Southern Baptist that are taking their focus away from the simple gospel.
The comments by willreformed, et al in their own unique way point out that those who recognize the inseperable link between the doctrines of grace and the development of historical Baptist doctrine have been ostracized by SOME of the leadership within the SBC. In many cases, these leaders only have limited knowledge of the doctrines of grace, the historic baptist confessions and distinctives and the relationship between the reformation and the beginnings of the baptist denomination. Many times this resistance precludes open, honest discussion of these doctrines among baptist brethern and sisters and SBC leaders. In some cases this resistance takes the form of attack which can make some of us (like me) a bit kneejerk in our reaction.
Again, I don't think any of this was aimed at you or at your love for the gospel. You are an example of what reformed-minded baptists have been asking God for years to fill our churches.
For those concerned, the difference between "Calvinist" and "reformed Baptist" are numerous but focus on two main distinctions:
1. Baptist - Infant baptism (Calvin's view) versus believer's baptism (reformed baptist's view).
2. Church governance - General Assembly/presbytry (Calvin's view) versus local church autonomy (reformed baptist view).
For these and other reasons I prefer to label myself "reformed baptist" rather than simply "Calvinist".
Kingobleh: BTW: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really think this conversation we are having is germame in regards to this post. How can one hope to educate the un-reformed if they do not discuss a unreformed thinkers questions. I'm admittedly several hairs short of a mane when it comes to my understanding of Calvin vs. Reformed. But I'm willing to hear and to try and understand. I feel understanding (even if one disagrees) creates great room for smoother existence within the same community. Take hispanic speaking folks and English speaking. When they learn each other's languages, they are much more able to build a house together. Don't you think? may be why my friend Greg B. came to my aid (indeed, rescue). He knows from which direction I come. I suppose I blind-sided those who did not. May grace be sufficient and abound.. is why my friend Greg B. came to my aid (indeed, rescue). He knows from which direction I come. I suppose I blind-sided those who did not. May grace be sufficient and abound...selahV
Dr. Ascol: Hmmmmn. Now it appears my second comment to Kingobleh has posted after my "germane" post in duplicate. Please forgive the cyber-ghosts of postings. And please delete one of the two identical comments of mine. Thank you. selahV
kingofbleh wrote:Dr. Ascol's original article I believe was not aimed at anyone on a personal level, but rather towards evangelicalism in general and the SBC and church movements in particular.
Right. My comment above is in the same vein but aimed at the reformed individual who attempts to engage a non-reformed audience. You will get significant eye-glaze if you start talking about any of the Doctrines of Grace in a group of SBC regulars. Even the six million who show up on Sunday don't speak the fine old language of theology. They want to feel better. They want to go to heaven. Some of them even want to do good things 'for God'. But lets not wade off into the attributes of God or the number of sparrows or hairs on my head.
To the average church member the definition of the Gospel centers around 'look at what Jesus did for ME! look how happy I AM!' and the 'plan of salvation' is a footnote at the end of a cold visit which culminates in a prayer and an extracted promise that they'll come to church on Sunday.
In short, its all about man and none of God and thats a high hurdle.
Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."
--2 Timothy 2:9
Josh: now MY eyes are glazed over. I thought I knew what you were saying in your first comment. But now I am thinking I may have misinterpreted it upon reading your second.
I had an very interesting discussion over coffee yesterday. A sweet friend of mine and I were engaged in the differences of our faiths. She a Lutheran attending our SBC church and serving faithfully as a living breathing child of the Most High.
Though we discuss theology and our ignorance of theology, we don't go to church expecting a sermon to boost our morale or curry favor with each other. We seek to grow in our knowledge of our Saviour and to be chastened and corrected by the study and preaching of God's Word. We often discuss how to apply the message to our everyday lives. In fact, at our coffee exchange, we were discussing how she could better share Jesus with her next-door neighbor who is a Buddhist. She is the fill-in for her Buddhist friend who is due at any moment to have a baby. And her husband is serving in Iraq. Her Buddhist friend asked BJ if she was a Christian because of the kindness and love she has seen expressed in her actions. I really don't understand if this is doing things in a untheological way, or if it waters down the Doctrines of Sovereignty. But it was clear to both my friend and myself, that the Lord had placed them together for more than aiding in a physical birth of a child.
How far off am I in understanding the correlation between reformed and non-reformed in my comment above? Am I to understand that because I'm not reformed in theology that my effectiveness as a Believer in Jesus is negated someway? Help me out here, Josh. I really am interested. I'm trying to share these things you are privy to in a simple way to my friends. selahV
P.S. This comment in no way is meant to be arrogant, sarcastic, or inflaming.
Josh -
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Overpersonalizing the gospel definitely leads to relativing the gospel message, and this had definitely been happening on a wide scale for some time. But it has also created a hunger for a return to the simple gospel message among the laity that I deal with. They do not know where this hunger is coming from they just know that it exists. As a Christian matures he/she craves more "solid" food. Sadly, in our seeker-friendly age, they just don't know where to get it.
The good news is that many of us (ministerial and lay) who ARE teaching the plain gospel and true word with deference to reformed soteriology are finding captive audiences in a growing number of pockets throughout the denomination. I suspect this trend will increase as the baby-boomer Christians mature in Christ and outgrown the "training wheels and baby food" theology offered by the seeker-friendly/purpose-driven movement.
SelahV -
I agree since this is a blog and not a discussion board it's really not suited to conversations.
To answer your initial question more succinctly, we need to look a bit of church history. (I am sure Dr. Ascol and others here will correct me on my dates, but hopefully I have the events in order). In the early 1600's as a result of the Scottish Reformation and the teachings of John Knox, the Presyterian Church was formed and their theology was summarized in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Several decades later the Congregationalists split from the Presbyterian Church over the issue of church goverance (they believed in church autonomy). They modified the Westminster somewhat and issued the Savoy Declaration (1646) among other confessions. The Baptists later split from the Congregationalists over the issue of infant baptism. Their primary confessions are the 1644 and 1689 London Baptist Confessions of Faith.
All the while the Baptists kept the doctrines of man's depravity, God's unmerited election, substitutionary atonement for sin, particular redemption, the effective calling of God's grace and the perserverance of the saints at the center of their theology and confessions of faith. This continued into America through the first and second great awakenings, the Charleston Association, the Sandy Creek revivals, and even through the formation and the first 70 or so years of the SBC.
In the 20th century we lost our focus on the simple gospel and reformed theology due to the onslaught of fundamentalism, dispensationalism, liberalism and postmodernism. All of these movements in culture and the church have had destructive effects on how church goers view the gospel, and even on how the gospel is presented.
There are numerous articles on this site that explain how we got where we are today much better than I. Sorry for all the big words but I wanted to keep the post short.
SelahV -
Oh, and praise the Lord that your friend has been given an opportunity to share the gospel with her neighbor. Clearly, the Holy Spirit opens these kinds of doors when we show the love of Christ to others. My prayer is that your friend will be able to share how God's grace and mercy towards her despite her sinfulness is the cause for that love. Please encourage her to share the WHOLE gospel of Christ (God, sin, law, grace) with her neighbor every chance she gets. That is our command from Christ. There is nothing "unreformed" whatsoever in sharing the gpspel with others. On the contrary, it is when we STOP sharing part or all of the gospel that we become "unreformed". |
Apologies for using the form of hints and teasers, we are still waiting for final legal steps to be able to officially announce a second project in development at SCS Software, but for now, we can unveil at least a few bits of background info.
Back in 2010, an unfortunate sequence of events caused another small Prague-based independent game development studio to shut down. Suddenly we had the opportunity to hire several senior people in one swoop, basically a nucleus of a very talented development team. It would be a pity to miss such an opportunity, but we knew we just could not afford growing our head count at the time. The higher monthly burn-rate just wasn't in line with our revenues, and looking at where the extrapolated lines on the cash flow graph were intersecting, it was clear that we wouldn't be able to sustain so many people until the end of ETS2 project, even if a few extra programmers and artists could possibly speed up its development.
As we were scratching our heads on how to have our cake and eat it too, we came up with an idea: let's take a risk and do an experiment to pursue smaller opportunities - try to produce limited-scope projects next to the opus magnum of Euro Truck Simulator 2 project. Basically the goal was to explore additional aspects of the truck driving phenomenon, build smaller games quickly in a few months, and try to see if they can bring back the investment as fast and hopefully even indirectly help the progress of ETS 2.
This was the road which has led to creation of Trucks & Trailers. This project turned out to be a success - new 3D models were built that ETS2 benefited from, new engine effects were created for T&T which ETS2 immediately took advantage of, we could spend more time on AI now that multiple projects benefited from it, and both teams were providing each other with inspiration. And almost as a side effect, a little application which could help wannabe truck drivers get some insight into trailer maneuvering was born. Last but not least, the accounting books looked a bit better with another game providing helpful revenue.
As we were getting close to release of Trucks & Trailers, a very exciting opportunity appeared in front of us, in the form of close cooperation with a leading truck manufacturer. We did not think twice about it, this was a chance to learn from the "big boys" and of course a chance to bring our game to wider audience than just our loyal but not so numerous fan base. We also knew that this time we could aim higher and be more ambitious about the feature set of this project, we were sure we could build something that more of you would find worth playing.
Here we are some half a year later, with an almost finished game.. Stay tuned!
first))))
Comment deleted, IP's banned
3rd screenshot looks epicReplyDelete'
What about double treilers?
Make this
I agree with the solos in front of me. I hope at some point once more will appear in the trailer type trucks simulators in.
So a new game is coming soon.. great to hear that. The pictures look a lot like reality. Keep yp the good work!
Also check
Great Job scs team Please Double trailer screen..Please new tank trailer model please..
YES ! Please Double trailer screen.
I think the double trailer would be the real challenge.
It looks like we will have to supply all materials to a construction site, there and back, until the project is finished. All equipment, tools etc have to be taken to the site from different sources, as if you undertake a contract maybe.
I would love that.. real oversized loads, too
Good idea! I agree.
yes is a good idea i loveania P Series.)etc.You have a long time to relase date.You can do this.Thanks for everything.Please make this detail.
7,5 tonnes and 12 tonnes trucks
e.g: MB Atego + tandem trailer
I AGREE
Hopefully,SCS Software makes it.It shouldn't be too diffucult.
vey good idea. ♥
I hope these parts of the track will be included in the ETS2 well.
i think i know which manufacture it is; it's scania isn't it
you might think why have i come to such idea ,well the real name scania was in trucks and trailers no other company was and when we received the news that you received a test driver from scania and then they let you use one of their trucks and you showed us the scania demo center
so that's the most likely "leading manufacture" scs is talking about
Noooo i dont think its scania??? Hehehe i think people can se it...
maybe some people don't but yh i know it's a bit obvious
Is this another game as well as Euro Truck Simulator 2 in 2012, This is going to be a great game!!!!
Actually as the Letter to the community says there'll be ETS2 + 2(two) MORE! games, wich will even release a lot befor ETS2 .. that means till August we'll have 2 more EPIC truck games and than .... BAM! ETS2 in the first week of august!
I am from Brasil and I want to play this game very much.
The game will be sold here?
Thanks !
Gean from Belo Horizonte.
we have
Splendid images. I am very excited about this project as well.
Keep up the amazing work SCS Software team.
Incredible!
This is great news for fans hungry for a good Simulation. Keep up the good work!
The purchase of this project is already programmed.
Rafael Brusque Toporowicz
São Mateus do Sul - Paraná - Brasil
Wow, look at the road in the background at picture number 3! Amazing, can't wait to try it out :)
We knew six months period will not exceed the empty
The new game will be good for us in your
Good work
hasan525 - EuroTruck2.com - TURKMods.com - OyunMods.com
don't forget to change those tank trailers, they not proper, you should make new models of them...
Just can't wait!
Visual looks very nice,I believe that the physics,gameplay and sounds are equally good.
That's good to know, that small projects that make great effect, in addition you can earn an extra income in order to cover the budgets of the company, too, always to make something of this little game to apply in larger games.
Now I had two little ideas that might improve this game
1) Create an account. Like, you create a website for registration, then I'll do it register and download the game, then I'll want to play it, then I see entering the game, but before you see the main page of the game, put a login page, I put a name and password, then this is just enjoy the game. The advantage is, so I can access my account of the game on any other computer, so no need to start a career from scratch, just download the game, making it much easier our lives.
2) About a month before the premiere, making the site a lot, I make an application to test the game before launch to the world, like there are at most 30, 40 drawn in order to test the game, i tested it for a while like, a week, some days, so the game to prevent the mistakes that some times the SCS team did not notice this error, so every day for example, send notes about the game , type errors in the game, some bug's.
They are two things that would be very effective for this game and know the staff here blog, will agree with me about it.
Eric
SP/BRASIL
a very good idea
öncelikle sizi izlemeye devam ediyorum hep takip ediyorum başarılar harika görüntüler ilham verir umarım size elinize emeğinize sağlık herkese iyi çalışmalar oyunu bekliyorum ne kadar uzun bir süre olsada :)
BU ARADA YENİ RÖMORKLAR ÇİFTLİ RÖMORKLAR HATTA 3 RÖMORK ARKA ARKAYA :) DEĞİŞİKLİK İSTİYORUZ AMA BİLİYORUZDA SCS BİR HARİKA!!!:))))))))))))
I think this is wrong politics,better is one bigger and complete game which can be more upgraded with patches than two small games with childish gameplay...I would never bought a game as "Trucks & Trailers" because it has no logic and reality(except graphic) and I was disappointed by level of stupidity in this game.
yeeeeeeeeeeeeessss!!! Nice work scs!!! this could become Scania Simulator!! bye from Italy (and my english is quite bad)!!
noo scania simulator volvo and daf simulator yeesss
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE PROJECT, INFORMATION PLEASE!
and i thoought it be something completely diffrent like loading trucks from ware houses. or something diffrent. but yet SCS it looks like it's another pick up a trailer from here with the cargo on it. and yet it looks like just a bit of trucks and trailers and eurotruck 2 and sadly rest of your trucking game's so at the moment with your picture's it's not really brand new yet.
I really liked the past 3 posts because of the amount of writing so keep it up.
I was thinks about pedestrians in ets 2 and one of the things you can do is make the pedestrians dodge the truck just before the truck hits them like in the link below but make it so that the pedestrians cant get hit.
keep up the good work scs.
here is the link
18 Wheels of Steel Extreme Trucker 3 Across the Europe
très jolie travail, rien a dire.
En espèrent que ETS2 seras complet au niveau des possibilité que ça soit en étant ouvrier et patron de sont entreprise. J'atten beaucoup de votre jeux et je suis plient désespoir.
PS: faite un maximum pour avoir des bruitage et des sons réaliste pas comme GTS, ETS, UKTS... et tout vos ancien jeux car ça enlève énormément d'immersion
merci pour votre écoute (un de vaux grand fan de FRANCE)
Got curious about what will it be ^^ But well, one truck / one class of cargo likely one company ? "yet it looks like just a bit of trucks and trailers and eurotruck 2 and sadly rest of your trucking game's so at the moment with your picture's it's not really brand new yet." Dude what do you expect ? Flying trucks on airport lands ??
Make the latent roads where on a card aren'ted (for example soil, or narrow
Greetings from Russia
Scssoftware! What if you add real adverts in the game to make money? It would look so nice to see real adverts on cities and highways. Google adwords would be one good choice. For example, gamer gets adverts in Berlin that are keyworded/tagged to Berlin. In-game-advertising would help you, but it takes time to make it real...
Not a bad idea!!! Nice trucks & trailers from europe with logo on it and stuff.. like a DHL Depot or something in it...
Will there be a black interior for Scania.
I have seen different screenshots with black interior black exclusive interior and a beige interior with dark brown colors...
Where have you seen it?
Mitsos from Greece.
Please make this Scania is Class B.
Link:
I think their secret project is about extreme trucking.
Anything that can help fund The Dream is welcomed, at least by me. Sorry to hear about the end of a company but happy to hear it has help produce what we will see in the future -- and cannot wait to learn more about this game while waiting for ETS2.
Keep up the good work, SCS, hope you have a long productive career ahead of you. (c:
Wow I haven't seen such positive atmospehere between the developers and the game. I honestly haven't come across any dislikes about the game, everyone just can't wait for the game to come out, patiently.
You SCS, are a unique company that respects their fans and keeps them informed about almost everything. You are doing a great job, a revolutionary trucker game that noone can beat.
Respect to you guys and keep it up!
SCS please go through as muddy roads to our dirty truck and be able to wash it.
Please do so, it would be great if it's in the game.
SCS can you make your original wheels of the trucks as in real life.
The wait for this game will be VERY allowance!
All I see in the news are AWESOME! I can not wait ...
Will I be able to run it on my computer? because I see that the graphics are very realistic ...
My Computer:
i3 550 3.2
HD6770 1gb
4gb ddr3
If anyone can give an opinion ...
It will run. I have an Dual Core 1.8Ghz processor,HD4650 1Gb,1.5Gb ddr2. And I run GTS at full detail without a problem. You wouldn't need to make any problem! Sorry for my english!!!
Instead of spending money and time on different project, you could have released ETS2 on time, and only afterwards focus on different project. If you think that just because you throw another small game like T&T at us we'll forget about you delaying ETS2 and about not listening to our demands you're wrong!
They didnt give us t&t to be patient .... read their blogs! It was a money thing.......! Scs software are maybe 10 developpers all their money is on ets2. A really small company with damn good ideas. Do your homework before the talking
Come on you little annoying pig,
why are you still complaining, you have made your point allready, we know, SCS suck, I will pirate, and all that other blabla bullshit!
Just be happy that SCS is making this gamegenre and appreciate it, these guys are doing a hell of nice job.
So please stop talking about ur demands and shit, you're not allone on this world, remember that, you're not the only one with demands, they can't put in every demand, so!
Talk normal or stop posting stupid posts that is only annoying the rest.
Thanks.
You stop posting stupid replies to my posts. If you bothered to read them, you'd know that I'm not implying that they should take into consideration every little demand a fan has, but when it comes to the things that most of the fans ask, such as having pedestrians on the streets, implementing those things in the game is a MUST !!! So don't give me this "they can't put in every demand" shit, because I didn't say that !
And no, I shouldn't be happy just because they make the genre. If you work on a thing, do a quality job or don't do your job at all !
Nelutu, you're a very complicated person.. You hate SCS but you'll love to play their games ?! .. And about the pedestrains, do you fucking know how much work will it be to make pedestrains AI, so they wont just come out on the street, on T&T they were puted chaoticly, just for fun! ..
SCS will have to delay the game more if you want the pedestrains, becouse they have to create all new 3D models for ETS2 engine, all new 3D models of people, new AI for their mooving, new map AI so they could mark the place they'll moove, quit asking for pedestrains and try to learn how's a game made and what's needed to be done so it'll run smooth
Like I said, you're complicated and not as smart as you think you are. Do you get it clear now, dumbass ?
Nelutu, the small projects are for earning extra money to make ETS 2 even better, and those projects are not delaying ETS 2, they said both things in THIS post, i guess your just a little kid who doesn't know how you make games and just want everything you want in it or you are just going to pirate it, by that i know your a little kid.
@Michael: Please read what I wrote above. I didn't say that SCS should add everything I want in the game, and it isn't just about me either. What I complained about was that a lot of people (including myself, but not only myself) have asked for pedestrian, and yet SCS answers to this with their butts. That's what I'm all angry about.
@Anonymous: I think that you don't know too much about creating games either ... They could just add a script that randomly places pedestrians in cities, gas stations and rest places. And they could add another script that doesn't allow the truck to hit them. I for one wouldn't mind if they were placed chaotically, just as long as they would be there.
The problem is that many people ask for pedestrians, but not many people take more attitude If more people complained the way I do and keep asking SCS about pedestrians, maybe they would give us an answer to our requests. The problem is that too many people don't realize that they have some rights and they're just happy that SCS makes the game, as if they weren't creating it for money, as if they made the game as a favour to us, not as a source for their own profit.
THEY SAID THAT THEY ARE NOT ADDING PEDESTRIANS BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN RUN THEM OVER AND THE GAME WOULD BE RATED HIGHER, SO THEY ARE NOT ADDING THEM, you are just a kid who doesnt read posts made by scs software
Nelutu
What is this suppose to mean
"If you think that just because you throw another small game like T&T at us we'll forget about you delaying ETS2 and about not listening to our demands you're wrong!". Do you actually realize how uttlerly ridiculous that statement is? Demands!!! You do understand you're talking about a video game right??? not a hostage situation.
People asked for more minor road SCS added more minor roads
People asked for better hadling SCS implemented better handling.
Better rain effects
more realistic trailers
Darker nights
More diverse truckstops
more diverse management system
Need I continue to list things or does you tiny brain understand what I'm getting at??
I've bought every GTA game do you think Rockstar cares.... or even listens to my demands.
SCS are a small developer with a limited budget.
stop behaving like a cretinous little urk.
Anthony
@Michael: It seems to me that you are the retarded one here, because it is you who don't read or don't understand my posts. As I said, they could add a script which prevents the truck from stepping over pedestrians.
@Anonymous: Yeah, I agree, they've added some stuff that we wanted there. But that doesn't mean they've added enough. Especially since pedestrians could be easily implemented..
Nelutu age of 7 again hehe are you having a hard time in your romanian day care today hehe..
We ope the best.
Regards from your MODS&MORE
TrucksimCom
It is obviously scania look at the picture in previous post
The best game ever SCS well done!!!
Mitsos from Greece.
i tottaly agree with mitsos!!!
ΠΕΣΤΑ ΡΕ ΜΗΤΣΟ!!!
Great.. but tell me, where is the update with some new missions for T&T you announced some months ago? =)
I'm glad to see the pictures showing the new project from SCS. It show us some cool new features that we may expect for ETS2, but I think the Scania R-Topline cab is not the suitable cab for construction sites (assuming that the project has a construction-related content). Usually, we see 6x4 G or P cab with short roof in that scenario.
I liked so much of the light spot on the wall and the ground full of water!
Good work SCS. This is an amazing idea. This project will bring some money to make ETS2 more better. And Nelutu,you make Romania of laughter! I'm romanian too but Nelutu is a stupid child! So fans of the SCS games,don't listen to him! Sorry for my english!
Great news ! Still there are work to be done, in the 4th picture the gravel, sand, ore (opentop) trailer has just 6 total wheels not 12 (in Europe) like this :
And I hope for new companies in ETS2.
I am saving money to buy the game :X:X:X I cant wait
Why the fuck are you showing random screenshots? Atleast explain why the fuck are you parked in the first screen, why are you manuvering that truck like that in second, where is the 3rd screen and why isn't in the last screen trailer turning as it should?
I wonder myself the same thing. It seem that SCS simply can't stop from mocking us.
SCS:
"Here we are some half a year later, with an almost finished game.. Stay tuned!"
That means, the game is 90% done and when it's 100% they'll explain everything .. the ".. Stay tuned!" means that in very short period we'll have all the information.
As about the question for the trailer.. I asume that you've never even got close to a truck with semitrailer (.. well in Europe), the truck isn't going into the curve as it should, if you have taken a look at the cab you'd see that the cab isn't straight but against the grass, not as the curve goes. If you don't know smth, just don't talk about it..
Oh 1 more thing, if you were smart, you'd take a look at the next Scania coming.. ;)
go ahead be a smartass, in the 4th screen the trailer isnt hanging as it should, meanwhile truck behind it IS hanging, I guess it's reparked to take the screenshot but why the fuck would you to that? What does "next scania comming" got to do with anything related to these screenshots?
OMFG, you didn't understand why this guy asked, he was asking why when you take the turn with the truck the trailer is in this position, he ment that when you turn, the trailer doesn't moove, I got it that it's becouse of taking screenshot >.>..
"why isn't in the last screen trailer turning as it should?"..... He didn't unerstand it >.> Don't try to make yourself smarter..
i love you strange haters.
Well about teh screen, its fast taken, and it meant to see the backgroudn as well. Truck is parked like the dude above me said. You can be shure for that cuz the AI Scania in back is braking (when you play ETS/GTS you wont get such situation for shure =D if you exp the games you will know what i am writing)
Can you do have a storm and the trees swaying strongly
and rain but very strong.
Hello like to know if possible if my computer can handle the new ETS2 video card ATI RADEON HD 4850 SERIES,PENTIUM DUAL-CORE CPU [email protected], 4.0GB RAM WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE 64-BIT SP1
You will be able to play it.
ok tanks :)
You only brag or what?
rafael podes falar portugues
can anyone talk something about the hardware requirements of the ETS2 please?
SCS you are doing a great job. I Have a question is the game compatible with logitech g27? well done from italy
Can't see the reason why it won't be compatible! :P im buying one too fro that game!
I'm so pleased to read that SCS is going from strength to strength. Very good news for us truck simmers !!
Any provisions about the requirements? I wanna know if i need to upgrade my pc:
ATI Radeon HD 4850
2 GB RAM
Intel Dual Core @ 3.00 GHz
Thanks!
The processor is good, but I'm afraid you will need to buy 2 more GB of RAM.
Yeah ive been thinking that and for other applications. What about the graphics card?
Hmmm, I think it's good enough for ETS2. If you can play Trucks and Trailers then ETS2 will work fine too.
Ok, thx!
Wow I have a idea of a game yall can make while we whait. Yard Truck Simulater!!! Driveing Mule trucks or yard tugs or shunt trucks whatever u call em picking up trailers and moving them around kinda like trucks and trailers u could use real brands Terberg Mifi Kalmar Autocar Ottawa Dina if u like or just make um look like em just a thought though im sure others have ideas
I have a idea and its that this is a dumb idea thay wouldent make any money off of it cuz know one knows about them I mean it might but thay had trucks and tralers why would thay make the same game twice?
there are much more stupid simulators available look at street cleaning simulator
MIchael, I totally agree with you!!! I prefer to have a couple of short truck driving/skylling games that so much useless simulator that you find around the web. And they are crap fpr the 90%, I test personally 9-10 of these product and bleah, they're AWFUL!!!
Nice!!
MI PC:
INTEL DUAL CORE 2
2 GB RAM
GEFORCE 8400 512 MB
WINDOWS XP
WILL ETS2 RUN?
On minimum settings would be fine.
But if you want to run at geat settings then i recommend to buy a GTX 550 ti or the new HD 7770 as graphic card. they just cost around 120-180$ and you will be able to play all games at highest settings and Full HD. And i recommend you to buy 4 GB DDR2 kit Ram.
180$ for graphic + 40$ DDR2 4 GB
Just 240$!
*just cost total around 220$ for the upgrade
(sry for the mistake)
I will buy Geforce gt430 1gb ddr3
Its a better choice to choose a video card with GDDR5, they have more bandwidth and certainly will run the game better!
my pc :
intel quadcore i 5
nvidia geforce GTX 560 TI
MEMORY PC 12 gb
windows 7 home premium x 64 bit
CPU :AMD FX AM3+ 8 coeurs OV-4.2GHz
Carte mére : ASUS-ROG Crosshaire V AM3+
GPU : SLI GTX590 ASUS 3Gox2 DDR5
RAM : Corsair Dominator 4x 8Go_DDR3_CAS7_1800MHz (24Go)
Windows 7 Intégrale 64x
CPU:Intel Xeon E7 2x Ten Core 2.4Ghz
GPU:ATI Radeon HD6990 CrossfireX 4Gb
RAM:24 Gb DDR 3 1333Mhz
Windows 7 64 bit!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! I will run ETS2 o this computer????????????
You only brag or what? You are so stupid!!!!
Will it run on this pc?
AMD Phenom X4 965 Black Edition 4x3,4GHZ
8GB DDR3 1333
GeForce 460GTX
Win7 64Bit
I have played GTS with opengl settings and it was on 15fps in a town. I was wondering because Battlefield 3 runs faster on VeryHigh Settings.
SCS can learn what the requirements will be in the new game so long is probably the game will require a lot by that time probably can udet computer in the trash thrown out
This waiting is killing me :/
Stop whining!
If your waiting kills you then go watch far cry 3 trailer on youtube :) It's 7 minutes long
Sounds like you're a man of experience.
I'm excited, SCS. Now it's obvious that this is Scania dedicated game and it looks it'll be similar to Extreme Trucker in certain way. Environment looks very promising, I'm sure it'll be fun - can't wait to play it! :-)
amd sempron le-1200 , 2.1 Ghz
ati radeon hd 3400 series 500 mb
1gb ram
this week i will buy 1 more Gb of ram , will ets2 run on minimum settings on my hardware :( ?
SCS can you do in ETS2 be other oversized loads such as rollers, asphalt pavers .... such as this machine in the middle.
Link:
SCS make proper anti-alising engine NOT blurry images! Textures of edges in T&T were horrible. Blurry light are so awful i won't even comment.
I think this game will be named Scania Truck Simulator.. it will have the missions from Extreme Trucker.
SCS, please make adjustable rear suspension on trucks :O)
I think it's safe to say, this game really is going to be amazing.. I love the choice that you took to ditch the way ETS, GTS, UKTS and the others could be run on almost every machine. This will make the game last a long time. GTS and UKTS were outdated as soon as they came out, but Trucks & Trailers is still a mile ahead in the gaming industry. Keep the good work coming, this truly is going to be amazing.
A loyal fan in the UK
Just as results from the shooting this I want all Warning lights to be functional both on the tractor as well the trailerwhether they be installed on the back or sides and please try to add that option
Katalava giati tha kikloforisei ton Augousto to ets2...ton paizetai kanonika!!!!!!
Mitsos from Greece.?
Great scs continue like that I am on that ETS2 will be great, one thousand times to superieur to ETS.
I just have a wish it is to make apparaitre the trucks that we achete in the garage:)
SCS if you`re wandering what your fans want from ETS games its already in the name of the game:
Euro:Larger map including eastern europe and the Balkans
Truck:Legal truck brands
Simulator:A game as close as possible to real truck drivers life
Keep up the good work.Greetings from Bulgaria!
what's this game name ????? information SCS team ?.
I hope for your attention.
SCS two posts every week please,every Tuesday and Saturday:)
Mitsos from Greece.
It looks like extreme truck simulator on ETS2 engine. Maybe it will be oriented in Europe :)))
its nice if you guys put the customization in this game for us experiencing the most cool thing in game
Hy SCS'team.
In the first picture of the windshield is too low.
It's a small problem, it's not realistic.
But it's a good job.
Aty (HUN)
BUY THIS GAME JESUS!!!!! SO THEY CAN MAKE ETS2 AND MORE !
why are the lights going through the cars, wall is lit up even though the car is in the middle of the truck and the wall.
Balkan map???
that yellow scania , is it on trollstrigen... |
Chick spotter
April 14th, 2010
11:58 am
I like the talent behind the glass in that pic on the front page accompanying this story. Hope they’re staying!
WOW
April 14th, 2010
11:59 am
There is a Hockey team in Atlanta? WOW
East Point Bob
April 14th, 2010
12:00 pm
No change here, Waddell still in charge and will be making or approving all moves, nothing has been resolved, not one damn thing except the inept Don Waddell continues to collect a fat paycheck for doing nothing and after watching his end of the season interview on the Thrashers site…
He never looked straight at the camera once and kept closing his eyes after and during every question. Talk about someone who is on drugs or needs to be in Milledgeville best mental hospital, it is Don Waddell, the most worthless person in the entire world of hockey !
The Real Thrash
April 14th, 2010
12:01 pm
Wendell People who call people gay for being better educated than you are homo-phobic. Not that’s prettty bad. You probably wanted Waddell and Anderson to stay too.
Cliff Fletcher
April 14th, 2010
12:04 pm
Sorry folks-
WOW-you are original, we have had idiots here before
Facts-you and WOW must be the same person
You guys need to stay on the Hawks’ blogs, where stupidity and idiocy reign supreme
The Real Thrash
April 14th, 2010
12:05 pm
Good post on ESPN.com:
JS
April 14th, 2010
12:06 pm
Let’s hope the Thrashers have the same luck the Falcons had when they moved their boob upstairs. It worked once, hopefully it will work again.
The Real Thrash
April 14th, 2010
12:08 pm
Cliff Fletcher Anyone who uses the screen name of the GM who helped move the Flames to Calgary cannot call anyone an idiot or stupid. You are the epitome of dishonesty however.
Happy Fan
April 14th, 2010
12:08 pm
YESSSSSSSSS! This would be even better if Ilya was still here though!
Cliff Fletcher
April 14th, 2010
12:15 pm
Real Thrash-That was 25+ years ago-get over it
TURBOURBO
April 14th, 2010
12:21 pm
So let me get this right… 10 Years… Little Success… Promote the only consistent level of leadership that has had direct responsibility for this failure. So the leadership qualities that Spirit and Wadell exhibit… Promote Failure… Hmmmmmm…. Sounds a little bit like Enron to me!
I’m not sure John Anderson was the best coach for the Thrashers. But I do appreciate what he put on the ice this year. They were an exciting team to watch.
I don’t know what to think about this. I am an avid Thrashers watcher, but I am tired of writing these comments. Same theme as last year! Right now, I feel like in 365 days, I’ll be writing these same comments again. It’s time for a change… and just changing the coaching staff isn’t going to do it!
The Real Thrash
April 14th, 2010
12:21 pm
Cliff Fletcher It was 1980 and you’re the one using his name. Unless you are a Maple Leafs, Lightning, Coyotes, and then Maple Leafs again fan. In which case you’re on the wrong blog.
Cliff Fletcher
April 14th, 2010
12:23 pm
Thrash-get over it.
Dudley is the new GM and we should all be happy about it.
Have a great day.
Joe Friday
April 14th, 2010
12:25 pm
Well, there’s good news and bad news here. Good news first. Anderson isn’t an NHL coach, it was patently obvious to me from the first time I saw his system that it wouldn’t work in the NHL. It was rinky dink and reeked of Don Waddell’s minor league handling of this club from Day 1, minor league players, hiring minor league coaches in Fraser and Anderson, the one strong guy, Hartley, got the boot because he was given young players, and he’s not a veteran player guy.
Good news also is that we have a new GM, but please be realistic. This is a PR move that we, the fans who have boycotted and left as season ticket holders forced the owners to make, but they didn’t go all in, they did this as PR to blow more smoke up our rears. Waddell is the problem, promoting him to team President is a joke, a horrible business decision further proving these guys have no ability to run pro franchises.
I do not suffer under any delusion that Waddell is going to out of the personnel decisions. Read Dudley’s own words “I look forward to building this organization even further and working closely with Don”
Dudley himself said he’ll be working closely with Don, and that’s the bad news. Waddell is still going to call the shots, all they did was change the title of Dudley by removing associate from the front of GM and they changed Don’s GM to President, but the hierarchy remains the same, Dudley still reports to Waddell and Waddell is still in charge.
Now most of you fellow astute hockey fans also noticed what I did in the past year, and that’s some better personnel decisions being made and we figured it was Dudley giving Waddell some better advice, but some of the same dumb decisions were made (not trading Kovy when it was obvious to everyone but Sara that he was out of here, and it ruined our season, letting the minor league coach run his minor league system, allowing dissent in the locker room).
Mickey Mouse got promoted, and the new GM is still reporting to the same guy and states today that he’s looking forward to working closely with the guy that is the problem.
Oof.
Hotrod
April 14th, 2010
12:26 pm
Another rebuild to look forward to. I hope the new coaches will be told in the interview process that there is no time for chemistry (system) gelling. Right out of the box first game next fall , we need positive results. 1 year contract only, earn your extension.
I just hope NHL stays behind the Atl. market. There are alot of great youth programs feeding
off the NHL association. Its great for the kids.
kracker
April 14th, 2010
12:30 pm
Did Dudley make the call on Anderson and his staff?
Arthur Blank
April 14th, 2010
12:32 pm
It doesn’t matter if it is a business or a sports team, if your organization doesn’t meet expectations, throw somebody under the bus and pat top management on the back.
j
April 14th, 2010
12:37 pm
Cliff & Chppierslovechild, won’t matter what you say … there are people on the blogs who will complain regardless (some of which haven’t even been to a game this year). besides, it’s their own decision if they don’t want to come out and support the team. it won’t affect me on my decision to go to games or not, and this move is a HUGE improvement. If it wasn’t for dudley, we wouldn’t have even sniffed playoffs this year. Looking forward to see what he can do now with a full summer, free agency & the draft.
j
April 14th, 2010
12:42 pm
real thrash – great ESPN story on Dudley, thanks for the post
kracker
April 14th, 2010
12:42 pm
On Kozlov: I love him, I thank him for the years but he was through. If he had had anything left he would have been picked up at the TD. Zero interest.
I definitely did not like him ripping the team in the press. No class at all in that instance. JMO.
Jack
April 14th, 2010
12:43 pm
Sounds like they are copying the Falcons, hopefully they will have similar results.
Hey Facts, other than line item 5 you need to get a clue.
Sorry to see JA, and Weeks gone, Waddell is like that inlaw that will never leave
chris
April 14th, 2010
12:44 pm
So was the new GM tutored by Waddell?? If so, is the move really going to make a big difference because obviously the mindset Waddell used in signing players, trading players, drafting players, etc was not working.
Joe Friday
April 14th, 2010
12:48 pm
“Don has been an important part of this organization since its inception, and in shifting his focus to concentrate primarily on all business aspects of the organization, he will continue to work closely with Rick and play a vital role for our Thrashers franchise.”
That’s from the press release from the team. They say Waddell will still work closely with Dudley. Those of you who are thinking that Dudley will have sole control now of hockey operations are delusional. If that was true, they would have fired Waddell. Dudley and Waddell are buds, all that was done was shifting titles but Waddell is still Dudley’s boss and the owners and Dudley both said today that they’ll work closely together. Reshuffled the deck chairs, is all they did, but let’s hope a new coach can at least help next year.
For the Record
April 14th, 2010
12:54 pm
****ATLANTA THRASHERS WIN 2012 STANLEY CUP****
BOOK IT! This is freakin AWESOME NEWS for all Thrashers Fans!!! DUDLEY IS THE BRAINS…He needed to get out from under DW’s shadow to really take control and put the Thrashers at the top!
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is what Rick Dudley DOES…..It’s who he IS!!! He’s the mop-up guy who takes the going-nowhere NHL team to the TOP in a 2-3 yr time frame. This is honestly the BEST NEWS to hit Blueland since they made the playoffs….Even bigger and better than Kovy packing his bags and leaving!
Get your season tix early. This team will COMPETE next year. They won’t win The Cup but they’ll certainly make the playoffs, possibly even get through the 1st round. I can’t wait to see what Duds does in the off-season. I’m telling you…..He’s the one that’s gonna take us to Stanley Cup Land! Nobody believes it…..Not yet anyway.
Mark
April 14th, 2010
12:55 pm
If you think the business decisions that Waddell will make will not impact the hockey decisions that Dudley will make, you are the absolutely foolish Thrasher fan that keeps this team in business. Waddell will continue to tie Dudley’s hands and this will not turn out like the Falcons did – no Blank and lot’s of Spirit owners!
upsetfan
April 14th, 2010
12:55 pm
I don’t care if he isn’t involved in hockey operations (not that I trust Bruce Levenson anyway), he is still technically getting a promotion.
drsoul
April 14th, 2010
12:55 pm
What do you expect out of Waddell when you really evaluate this ownership???? when he is GONE, then a lot of us will buy tickets again and support the franchise… this is like watching the Falcons…!!!!
NewCoach
April 14th, 2010
12:58 pm
Bring back BOB HARTLEY. Why they ever fired him after two season of over 90 points, I will never, ever know.
Hockey Biltong
April 14th, 2010
12:58 pm
A solid move. It will be interesting to see the new coaching staff….
Spud Webb
April 14th, 2010
12:58 pm
H&LL YEA WADDELL IS OUT OF THE DECISION LOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
World Be Free
April 14th, 2010
12:58 pm
I kinda expected this to happen when Dudley was hired. He has a proven track record as a contributor to other NHL organizations. Whether he is working with or alongside Waddell is really not material, because Dudely will make the moves that he believes is in the best interest of the team.
Sounds like the Falcons? I guess, but Dudley is his own man. I have to assume he’s the one who made the decision on the coaches. How let’s see who he picks as his new coaching staff. As long as it is not Curt Fraser.
Dudley was a character player, I expect him to be just that as a general manager.
Wayne stuck in AL
April 14th, 2010
1:11 pm
I think the only reason Waddell was bumped up to team president is because with Atlanta Spirit being (mostly) absentee owners, they needed someone the knew and trusted…But trust me, had Bernie Mullin still been point man for AS, Waddell would’ve been gone some time ago.
Former Flames Fan Club member
April 14th, 2010
1:12 pm
I’m glad they made some moves although I would rather see Don Waddell go. I do agree with the person who said “Quit wearing other team jerseys to the games” and “sit down when the puck is in play”! Also, can we get someone at the AJC to give the Thrashers more coverage?
I hope the changes will bring championship hockey to Atlanta! Go Thrashers!!!
To those who commented “Who are the Thrashers?” – stay off the hockey blog.
thrashfanmax
April 14th, 2010
1:22 pm
Hate to see Anderson go. He really did get a raw deal, and he knew what style of hockey these guys needed to play. Injuries and prima-donna attitudes early on doomed them. Kovy never intended to sign and just played them along to force their hand. Good riddance to bad rubbish. JA I hope you land on your feet running, and show the asses the problem was/is in Waddell’s office. DUH….
Pete
April 14th, 2010
1:22 pm
Look, it’s only a matter of time till the Thrashers leave Atlanta. Ninety percent of the population of metro Atlanta don’t have a clue what or who the Thrashers are. Today more than ever, the average fan can only afford so many tickets to sporting events.
Currenty, in Atlanta, the Thrashers would be DEAD LAST on their list.
End of story.
Empty Netter Assists - 04-10-11 - Empty Netters - post-gazette.com
April 14th, 2010
1:22 pm
[...] -The Thrashers moved general manager Don Waddell from general manager to team president, promoted Rick Dudley from associate general manager to general manager and fired head coach John Anderson and his assistants, Randy Cunneyworth, Todd Nelson and Steve Weeks. [...]
alex
April 14th, 2010
1:25 pm
waddell needed to be fired first, be on list of ten most wanted and prohibited to been at least 500 miles from atlanta. there is most probably going to be situation with hiring head coach. rick made his choice, but the key of the purse still in don hand. he going to say “no we can’t afford” and rick would be forced to hire someone like ja, cheap but not nhl calibr coach. it’s not in dw interest now to turn this organization so everybody pointed “see rick in one year did what clown dw faile during 11 years” i am pesimistic until dw totally concentrate on bar-mitzva arraingment for mr. levenson.
Jo Ann
April 14th, 2010
1:28 pm
Once again ownership shows its incredible stupidity and distain for Atlanta Thrasher fans. Let’s see: John Anderson brings an essentially talentless team to the brink of the playoffs; ownership trades away the only talent he had and gets nothing in return, making the team totally talentless; Anderson keeps the team in playoff contention until the final week; Anderson gets fired. Where is the sense in that? Anderson did an OUTSTANDING job given that he had nothing to work with. Plus, Waddell’s promotion confirms the Peter Principle is alive and well and living at Phillips Arena. No wonder Phillips wants out of the contract to name the arena — I wouldn’t want to be even remotely associated with such stupidity either.
NHL Ready
April 14th, 2010
1:32 pm
Good move on the Thrashers by cleaning all the bench coaching staff. Start fresh let Rick setup what he needs and he will be accountable. The DW move makes since get him out of the player/coaching decisions and just do corporate Hockey from his desk.
Don’t get to excited we still need players to many excellent players have come and gone. Also we have some key players who are unsigned for next year (hope they resign since changes were made). We are finally getting bigger on D. Toby is a weak D man like to see him go and fill his spot with a bigger body who can hit the forwards and make them think about zone entrance.
Big key for me for this team is getting a qualified coach (NO MINOR LEAGUE CRAP) and spend, spend and spend some more for a Goalie. Pav’s is not the answer right now we need a kick $ss tender in net. Then we roll 3 lines with a fourth line of pounders when we need a spark.
I hope it happens.
Kunkel
April 14th, 2010
1:33 pm
It’s not a bad thing. I’m just not sure if it’s a good thing.
Fortunately they finally give Teflon Don the same “Peter Principle” treatment that Arthur gave to Rich McKay. That alone is cause for celebration!
Mifield
April 14th, 2010
1:36 pm
This would have been a perfect move exactly one year ago. No – I’m not so sure. Could be a little too late and a little too little – no pun intended in relation to Little. I hope that Bettman will monitor ASG closely now, especially after Kane doing the job the league neglected to do with respect to Cooke.
You Can Take the Girl Out of Detroit… « 929 davefm | Atlanta
April 14th, 2010
1:41 pm
[...] other hockey news, the Thrashers announced some big changes [...]
ChrisWoW
April 14th, 2010
1:44 pm
Wow cleaning house I think they should give anderson one more year. I will say this in finding a new coach they better not hire someone who has coached a southeast team.Don will be with this team until we move to canda or he is hit by a bus.
Tom
April 14th, 2010
1:45 pm
Who cares?
DWTOO
April 14th, 2010
1:56 pm
OK – All you pinheads, like Tom, please get off the blog. If you don’t like/don’t care – fine. But, this is for hockey fans. Let us know where your passions are so we can come and make fun of you.
With the change in GM – taking into account what WBF has said about Dudley – he’s going to want his man behind the bench. For that reason alone JA was doomed.
MB
April 14th, 2010
1:58 pm
Argh, sooo close, yet so far away.
“Promoting” DW – BOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Don really needed/needs to go, but clearly the ASG just isn’t willing to make that move. I can only hope beyond hope that he stays out of the way and gives Dudley the resources to do his job well.
On to Dudley, I’m optimistic. In general we’ve made some better decisions in his time here, though most have still been on the cheap (which I fear will always be a concern with the ASG). Good track record, character guy, yada, yada, yada…fingers crossed.
JA…never got any real traction here. For those saying he kept us in the playoff hunt, I disagree. The collective ineptitude of the Flyers, Bruins, Canadiens, and Rangers kept us in the race, and every time we had a chance to jump the field, we spit the bit. My hope for Anderson is that at some point in his career he’s able to look back at this experience and point to it as valuable learning for his future success.
And finally, I am SO happy that Steve Weeks is finally gone! He was the Teflon Don of our coaching ranks.
Needless to say, this is going to be an active off-season for the Thrashers…let’s hope the hockey gods are smiling on Rick Dudley and that Don Waddell takes a loooong vacation somewhere with very, very bad phone connections.
World Be Free
April 14th, 2010
2:03 pm
DWTOO-I am just ignoring the idiots. Duds is the man now!
Will
April 14th, 2010
2:03 pm
An NHL franchise MUST be recognized and run as any other multimillion dollar business.
The bottom line in this business is that revenue was being negatively impacted by management. Certainly additional variables were present but when the business is failing, the buck stops with top level management.
This is a very postive sign, one that, unfortunately has most likely come much too late to save the franchise.
You can call Don Waddell anything you want to, just don’t let him have significant input in the general management of the franchise. He does not deserve to do this nor has his actions since the inception of the franchise warrant his input.
Laura
April 14th, 2010
2:09 pm
Waddell gets to stay????? That is disappointing! Guess I will keep driving to Columbus to watch the Cottonmouths. Same distance (for me), tenth of the price, more entertaining!
We us to go see the Thrashers every time they had a Sunday or Monday game and all of the 2007 Playoffs, but since then it is not worth the time or money. Very boring, the one game I went to this year I actually fell asleep at!!! Third row center Ice and I fell asleep; SUCH a WASTE!!! Hope next season is better.
Kaniac
April 14th, 2010
2:09 pm
goodbye losers.. waddell better keep his hands off the team! |
West Palm’s hundreds of priorities for 2013 and 2028by Andrew Abramson
West Palm Beach commissioners and top city staff are meeting today for a day long retreat at Gaines Park. Commissioners also met yesterday.
Here’s a list of upcoming priorities for the city, per it’s Leader’s Guide 2012. Of course, the funding might not be here for all of these projects, but these are what commission and staff laid out as priorities.
Action ideas for 2013 (city commission perspective)
1. Northwest Neighborhood Revitalization Action Plan
2. Long Term Water Supply: Independent study, options analysis, direction, actions, funding (including Florida Crystal and Lake Point)
3. South Dixie Corridor Revitalization Plan/Strategy
4. Five Year Financial Plan/Blueprint (including five year projections for revenues and expenditures; operating expenses and capital)
5. City Financial Policies: Review, development revision (including reserves)
6. Coleman Park Community Center Expansion/Renovation
7. Community Center West
8. Pleasant City Revitalization Action Plan
9. Palm Coast Revitalization Action Plan
10. Gateway/Entrance (north/south) Beautification Plan
11. African American Museum
12. Art in Public Places
13. Proactive Crime Prevention Strategy/Program
14. Broadway Corridor Redevelopment/Business Development Action Plan
15. Economic Development Policy and Strategy
16. Waterfront Comprehensive Development Plan
17. Community Events Strategy
18. Overall Labor Policy Direction
19. Neighborhood Code Enforcement: assessment of policies, actions/processes and enforcement/compliance, report with options, direction, city role, specific actions, funding
20. Youth Programs: evaluation/needs assessment, report with options, directions, specific actions, funding
21. Convention Center Hotel Development
22. “Old City Hall Site” Development Projects
23. North Lake Fire Station: construction
24. Fire Training Facility
25. Fire Suppression for Waterfront (including a fire boat)
26. Community Foundation: development, city role, direction (particularly for parks and cemeteries)
27. Oliver Park Tennis Building
28. Water Amenities (private/public) along C51 Canal
29. 811 (sic) Property Development Project
30. City Employee Diversity Plan
31. Pre-School Direction: needs assessment, goals/desired outcome, dialog/partnership with the schools, city role, direction, specific actions, funding
32. Partnership strategy with Palm Beach County Schools: identification of issues/topics, dialog with school board/administration, specific actions
33. Library Services, Programs and Staffing: market analysis, direction, funding
34. Arts Programs: best practices, report with option
35. Old Northwood Area Improvement Plan
36. Street and Sidewalk Improvement Master Plan
37. Neighborhood Parking Policy
38. Homeless Strategy
39. Employee Morale Survey
40. City Housing Plan/Programs
41. Parks Master Plan
42. Outsourcing City Services: identification of opportunity areas, direction (including solid waste collection, landscaping/mowing, etc)
43. Golf Course Redesign
44. Cemetery Fence
45. Artists in Residences Program
46. Housing Development along South Dixie Highway
47. Drought Management/Water Conservation Plan
48. Public Outreach and Engagement Survey
49. People Mover Options
50. Parental Involvement/Responsibility Strategy
51. Showcasing Local Artists
52. Senior Housing and Services Strategy
53. City Services Priority and Staffing
54. Alternative Revenue Sources
55. Downtown Parking Master Plan
56. Flagler Bridge (over Flagler)
Action ideas for 2013 (administration perspective)
1. South Dixie Highway Development Project
2. Northwest Neighborhood Revitalization Action Plan
3. Five Year Financial Plan/Blueprint
4. Communication Audit and Plan
5. City Webpage Expansion
6. ECR Project
7. Old City Hall Site
8. Building Height along the Waterway
9. Mall Redevelopment Project
10. Outsourcing City Services
11. Employee Compensation Policy
12. FSU Film School Project
13. Broadway Corridor Redvelopment
14. Neighborhood Team Action Plan
15. Charter Schools
16. Emergency Radio System/P25: report, direction, funding (including OpenSky)
17. Long Term Water Supply
18. Community Foundation
19. Waterfront Development
20. Sister Cities Program expansion
21. Employee Clinic: direction
22. “Telling Our Story” Action Plan
23. Succession Planning and Process
24. Sanitation/Solid Waste Contracting
25. Financial Policies: direction (including reserves)
26. City Asset Inventory
27. Financial Software Upgrade
28. Park Mowing/Landscaping Outsourcing
29. City Volunteers Program
30. Fleet Inventory and Replacement Policy and Program
31. Street and Sidewalk Condition Assessment and Master Plan
32. Rutland Road Redesign
33. Stormwater Management Master Plan
34. Water Plants/Infrastructure Master Plan
35. Wastewater Plant/Infrastructure Master Plan
36. Dashboard for Performance and Project Management
37. Public Works/Utilities/Maintenance Performance and Organization Analysis
38. Flagler Street Improvement Project
39. Performance Metrics and Management System
40. Storm Water Utility
41. Non Ad Valorem Assessment for Sanitation
42. Sanitation Fleet Assessment
43. Sign Inventory
44. Streetscape Maintenance
45. Road Condition Assessment
46. LED Street Lights Project: completion
47. Flagler Bridge Project: completion
48. Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard Improvement Project: landscaping, traffic flow
49. Unified Land Development Code
50. Prevention Maintenance Plan for Garages
51. Banyan Garage Replacement
52. Parking Meter Replacement
53. Wayfinding Signs
54. Mobile Apps for the City
55. Parking Master/Strategic Plan and Rates
56. Utility Rates: market analysis, cost analysis, report with options, direction on rate structure
57. Pelletizer: evaluation, direction
58. Drought Management and Water Conservation Plan
59. Utilities Asset Management Assessment and Plan
60. Force Main Replacement
61. Water Reuse: direction
62. Fire Training Facility
63. Fire Station Replacement (fire stations 4, 5)
64. New Fire Station 9: direction, location, funding (Roebuck/Haverhill)
65. Fire Equipment Replacement
66. Fire Assessment Fee: evaluation, direction
67. Chronic Nuisance Calls: implementation
68. City Cemeteries: evaluation, direction
69. 811 (sic) South Development Project
70. Palm Beach Atlantic University Ballfields
71. Golf Course Outsourcing
72. Mizner Lakes Devleopment
73. Hotel Development
74. Employee Diversity Plan
75. Police Building: condition assessment, direction, funding
76. Police Strategic Plan: development, potential reorganization
77. Proactive Crime Reduction Strategy
78. City Business Image and Branding Campaign
79. Gaines Park Improvements
80. Waterfront Renovation Phase II
81. Southern Boulevard Bridge
82. Playground Equipment Upgrade
83. Parks and Recreation Master Plan/Strategic Plan
84. Westside Parks Facilities Plan
85. Social Services: inventory, needs assessment, city role, community partners, direction, funding
86. Parks Parking
87. Tennis Center Replacement
88. Pleasant City Community Center Replacement
89. Athletic/Multi-use/Ballfields Plan
90. Facility Rental Policy and Fee Structure
91. Hillcrest Open Space: development
92. Enterprise Agreement
93. Major Software Upgrades
94. Five Year Technology Plan
95. Wastewater Tower
96. Time/Attendance Software
97. Technology Replacement Plan
98. Work Flow Database
99. Emergency Generators at City Hall
100. Fleet Management Software
101. Diesel Storage Capacity
102. City Buildings Maintenance Plan
103. Waterfront Hotel Development
104. Sail Club Demolition
105. Villages of Palm Beach Lakes: condition, city role, action plan
106. West Broadway Development
107. Marine Business Expansion
108. Helen Wilkes ‘Hotel’: direction
109. Aged Motels Strategy: problem analysis, direction, city role, action
110. Community Policing Plan
111. Emergency Action Plan
112. Neighborhood Development Plan
113. Affordable Housing Plan
114. Retail Development Plan
115. Environmental Resources Plan
116. Education Plan
117. Healthcare Plan
118. Community Outreach Plan
119. Community Volunteer Plan
120. Annual Citizen Survey
VISION 2028 (West Palm Beach 15 years from now)
Unsurpassed Beauty
1. Attractive gateways and entrances
2. Well designed, well maintained streets, streetscapes and corridors
3. Well designed, well maintained parks, cemeteries and public green spaces
4. Public art throughout the city
5. Preservation of historic buildings and homes
6. New buildings designed for enduring character and quality
7. Well designed, well maintained public buildings
8. Preservation of our trees and natural environment
9. Great vistas for enjoying sunrises and sunsets
Safe and Clean
1. Feeling safe and secure anywhere in the city
2. Proactive crime prevention based upon data and analysis with involved businesses and residents
3. Minimal visual blight and trash
4. Clean streets and public spaces
5. Low crime rate
6. Reputation: break the law, you will get arrested and go to jail
7. Everyone sharing responsibility for maintaining a safe, clean city
8. Timely response for emergency calls for service, especially EMS calls
9. Effective emergency plan, response and recovery to a major disaster
10. Buildings, homes and signs meeting/complying with the city appearance and property maintenance standards and codes
Waterfront with worldwide recognition
1. Destination for the world, region and residents
2. Active, successful marine industries
3. Place for community activities
4. Beautiful Flagler Drive for walking, running biking and driving
5. Hotels attracting worldwide guests
6. Homes and condos providing housing choices
7. Deep, navigable waterway
8. Marinas for private and public access
9. Eating and entertainment along the C51 canal
10. Canals providing easy access to the Intracoastal System and Atlantic Ocean
Vibrant/alive downtown
1. 24/7 community
2. Range of shopping choices: daily needs to small shops providing personal service to boutique shops carrying unique products
3. Range of restaurants providing choices for food and price points
4. Regional center for performing and cultural arts
5. Variety of museums showcasing history and culture
6. People living in downtown with service necessary for daily life
7. Easy access and movement through an effective wayfinding system
8. Convenient and safe parking: garages and on street
9. Walkable and pedestrian friendly
10. Clematis Street closed as a pedestrian mall
11. Center for local governments
Great neighborhoods
1. Each neighborhood having its own unique character and sense of pride
2. Range of neighborhood choices offering different life styles: urban, historic, gated
3. Older homes restored, renovated or replaced
4. Range of housing options: type and price points
5. Housing choices for all family generations
6. Neighbors knowing and helping neighbors
7. Strong neighborhood and homeowner associations working with the city
8. Well designed, well maintained, neighborhood infrastructure
9. People feeling and being safe in their homes and in the neighborhood
10. Convenient access to parks and public green spaces
Sustainable community
1. Environmental stewardship by the city of the community’s natural environment
2. Preservation of natural species
3. Responsible use of water resources
4. Clean surface water and effective stormwater management system
5. Effective, efficient recycling program and process
6. Conservation of energy resources by the city and the community
7. Use of LED lighting and other low impact lighting
8. Designing new developments and buildings for sustainability
9. Well informed residents and businesses on their responsibilities for creating a sustainable community
10. Reducing the city’s carbon footprint
Regional Employment Center
1. Diverse local economy
2. People coming to the city for work
3. Businesses investing and reinvesting in the city
4. Regional medical and health service center
5. Entrepreneurial opportunities to start and grow a business
6. Small, locally owned retail shops
7. Commercial development along major corridors: Broadway, South Dixie Highway
8. Destination for quality shopping experiences
9. Retention and growth of local business
10. Range of marine based businesses
11. City livability contributing to business investment
12. Quality education opportunities for lifelong learning
13. Workforce prepared for 21st century job opportunities
Fun: Place to Enjoy Life
1. Top quality parks offering a variety of amenities throughout the city
2. Sidewalks and trails for walking, running and biking
3. Athletic and ballfields for recreation and tournaments
4. Well designed, well maintained community centers offering a variety of facilities, programs and services
5. Library with a variety of programs and services responsive to the needs in the community
6. Wide range of arts and cultural facilities and programs
7. Exciting entertainment for all generations
8. Strong community events and festivals offering free/affordable activites with high level of community involvement
9. Community foundation(s) supporting events, programs and facilities
10. Recreational programming and service for a lifetime
Easy Mobility
1. Effective regional transportation system for moving people and goods
2. Reputation: pedestrian friendly and walkable community
3. Predictable and acceptable travel times within the city
4. Effective public people movers connecting destinations within teh city
5. Effective regional public transportation with ridership by choice
6. Convenient, safe parking throughout the city
7. Rail services to Orlando and the East Coast
8. Wayfinding signs facilitating easy movement within the city
9. Well designed, well maintained streets and sidewalks meeting defined city standards
10. Well designed, well maintained bridges
11. Convenient access by boats
****
Let’s pull up the blog in 2028 and see if the city lived up to its vision.
November 10th, 2012 at 8:46 am
I read nothing concerning eliminating corruption, graft, irresponsible use of taxpayer dollars, meetings held in secrecy, refusing to impliment voters wishes, taking advantage of political position.
November 10th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
i concurr with Citizen 101, i but you a million tax dollars that none of these are implemented or done….
November 10th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Sounds like someone with champagne taste on a beer budget. How about pay cuts for ALL administration and reduce management level employees as the City has had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. In the Building department they had supevisors in plumbing that went like this: One plumbing inspector overlooked by one supervisor and the same for mechanical inspectors, electrical, and building. Eliminate Historical department and planners. Reduce or eliminate special events people or out source that dept. Get rid of Ed Mitchell. Demand drug testing for ALL administration, Commissioners and Mayor as they are just as likely to use drugs as are employees at other levels. One previous Mayor ( a couple of Mayors back) quit alcoholism by replacing alcohol with pot use. Cut Police over time and make them contribute to their pensions like anyone else and test police officers for steroid use. One narcotics undercover officer died you a few years ago despite the fact he looked to be in perfect physical shape and worked out daily at a gym across from Howard Park. Eliminate the waste aka traffic calming and road paver bricks. These changes mentioned here would save City tax payers million$ of dollar$.
To the voters: Vote out all incumbents.
Have the IRS look into past corrupt Mayor Nancy Graham and her fellow commission members who skimmed a huge amount of cash when Nancy raided the general employee’s pension funds. There is no statute of limitations on Federal tax evasion. The stock broker who worked for Dean Witter at that time knows all the details.
Raise taxes on folks who live along Flagler Drive and between Flagler and Olive Ave or equivalent by 15%.
Put cops and Code officers and other inspectors on scooters and bicycles and on walking beats to cover more areas with greater scrutiny and save on fuel.
Raise water rates on Palm Beach residents who can easily afford to pay for all that water they waste on their lawns.
Make Floritam grass ilegal as it wastes huge amounts of water and the fertilizers and pesticides that are required for this high maintenance grass are poison to the environment.
Establish tolls for the bridges to Palm Beach.
Actually collect the fines levied in all Code Enforcement cases.
Buy only the smallest fuel efficient cars for ALL City staff.
Charge impact fees on all residential and commercial construction.
Stop wasting money sending Code Officers and others to classes where they learn to not return tax payer’s phone calls and how to obstruct enforcement of the Codes rather than to facilitate the same.
No City employee should be paid more than $60 K including top administration.
Have volunteer lawyers and other legal staff who are fresh out of school handle the legal work.
Put prisoners to work cleaning up the City and collecting trash and mowing grass.
Eliminate sign codes that restrict the ability of any business to advertise.
Legalize pot and tax the slae of same.
Allow only one term for Mayor and commissioners.
Cut back on all department meetings as they usually are a huge waste of time designed to stroke the egos of the incompetent administrators conducting them.
Take away Rick Green’s collection of mirrors so he won’t waste so much time primping and admiring himself in front of them.
November 10th, 2012 at 2:46 pm
How about Director of Parks & Recreation, Christine Thrower answering the audit report that everyone’s waiting for? How about demanding Commissioner Kimberly Mitchell Take care of her own Comcast Cable issues.
November 10th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
Northwest Neighborhood Revitalization Action Plan is first on the list.
During Lois Frankel’s first campaign, she stood in the Northwest neighborhood saying, “this is the reason i want to become mayor, to help these poor neighborhoods”
She sat in the mayor’s seat for 8 years and the conditions in that neighborhood is the same. Devious Deputy Administrator, Dorritt Miller unintentionally exposed Frankel, in a going away ceremony saying, “within 48 hours of Mayor Frankel taking office, she started working on downtown and haven’t stopped since”. Now this neighborhood is number one on the list.
It is unrealistic to have 214 goals on their plate as opposed to a dozen which means, very little of the above will be accomplished with them or in the future.Their last retreat at Gaines Park cost tax payers $32,000. What vendor was granted the contract to supply the food & other necessities for this retreat? Was there an opportunity for vendors to compete for the contract or was the one chosen, somebody’s friend or relative?
November 13th, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Maybe they’d actually be able to fund this wish list if they’d approve some projects instead of kicking the cans down the road….
November 14th, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Does it get any funnier? It’s nice to have realistic goals. It’s a waste of time to be so naiive.
November 28th, 2012 at 9:50 pm
Clematis street needs to be closed. That’s a given.
There needs to be a bridge or tunnel below okeechobee. Screw trying to run across it.
Traffic intersections need to be timed at 0.9 m/s not 1.2
We are going to have a bikeshare program and we need protected cycle paths throughout the city to bring it up to the rest of the world standards. You will get more business from pedestrians and bicyclists than from people in cars.
Put light rail trams in the streets instead of those trolleys. Making it a permanent feature has an added effect of bolstering business by eliminating car traffic, bringing in more people, and giving them a sense of permanence and establishment here with a solid foundation. They would be more inclined to stay.
Put a light rail train route to PBIA and the racetrack. Buses are ok but reliable train ridership actually brings in wealthier visitors and commuters. It’s proven by studies in Chicago.
January 16th, 2013 at 12:46 pm
other seals are routinely batch-tested for quality control by the manufacturers In the US the most common standard inch sizes are per SAE AS568C specification e.g these materials vacuum systems that have to be immersed in liquid nitrogen use indium O-rings o-rings became the standard seal for the Air force hydraulic systems vacuum systems that have to be immersed in liquid nitrogen use indium O-rings d-rings |
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Contents
ECONOMIC HISTORY.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
Footnotes
In 1086 there were two
teams on the demesne of Churcham manor. (fn. 40) A
survey of 1649 extended 579 a. as being held in hand
by the lessees of the manor but probably only 416 a.
represented the demesne farm; the remainder was
grouped as six holdings ranging in size from 11 a. to
47 a., each with a house, and may actually have been
held by tenants on leases or at will. The 416 a.
included 60 a. in the open fields but twice as much
arable in closes; it also included 59 a. of meadow, of
which 9 a. were in the common meadows, as well as
177 a. in pasture closes. (fn. 41)
The tenants of Churcham manor in 1086 were
seven villani and two bordars with 6 ploughs. (fn. 42) By
c. 1267 four freeholds had been created. The largest,
held by Ralph Brown, was two yardlands (a yardland
being 48 a.), there were two of ½ yardland and
another of 12 a.; all four were held by charter in
perpetuity but they still owed heriots and one owed
a few labour-services. There were also 22 holdings
of varying sizes, including three of ½ yardland, which
were held either for life or at will. Most of them
owed cash rents and several also owed some labourservices and other customs or else some specific
service; a smith held by the service of providing
ironwork for the lord's ploughs, two other tenants
had to supply ploughshares, and three owed a fixed
quota of honey. (fn. 43)
The customary tenants c. 1267 were 10 holding ½
yardlands, 7 pairs holding jointly a ½ yardland, 12
mondaymen each holding 4 a., and 5 cottars. In the
October-July period the half-yardlander was required to work four days and plough ½ a. every other
week; the work might include mowing, threshing,
and carrying, but a moiety of his works might be
commuted if he did woodward service at Birdwood instead. In August and September the half-yardlander
had to work the whole of every other week and on
one day of that week find three men to work; in the
alternative weeks he had to find two men to work
two days. He also owed a number of bedrips. The
mondayman owed one day's work each week in the
October-July period and two days in the harvest
months. The cottars owed 8 bedrips. Other customs
included toll on ale brewed for sale and on the sale
of horses, two heriots, one to the abbey as lord and
one as rector, and pannage of ½d. for a young pig
and 1d. for a full-grown one. (fn. 44)
Between 1519 and 1527 the abbey granted leases
of several tenements for terms of years or lives with
heriots payable, (fn. 45) but in 1649 most of the land was
held by copyhold, although there were also three
freeholds, one of a yardland. There were 21 copyholders in 1649: one had 45 a., five had 30-40 a.,
seven 20-30 a., and eight 4-17 a. (fn. 46) The lessees of
the manor could grant copyholds for up to three
lives but could make no reversionary grants; widows
had freebench. Heriots were paid in cash or chosen
from the best goods. One labour service remained:
on one day each year every tenant owning a cart had
to collect and carry one load of wood from Birdwood
to College Green in Gloucester for the use of the
dean and chapter; they were provided with food by
the lessee of the manor who also had to give 1d. to
each and 2d. to the one who arrived and unloaded
first. The dues of c. 1267 for pannage, then called
tack pig, remained in force. (fn. 47) There were still 18
copyholders on the manor in 1812; there were then
also 35 leaseholders, about half of them holding
cottages built on the waste. (fn. 48) A large part of the
estate continued to be held by copyhold tenure until
the later 19th century. (fn. 49)
In 1649 there were seven open fields on Churcham
manor. The largest, Hanlow field with 60 a. or more,
lay in the north-east part of the manor near Highnam
Woods. Easterworth field, between Church Lane
and Oakle Street, and Oakle field, west of Oakle
Street, each had over 30 a., and there were four
smaller fields, Sainthill field north of Sainthill, Hook
field to the south-west of it, and Dishland field and
Landfurlong east and west of Oakle Street. One
copyholder had land in four of the fields but the
others had land in only either one or two; only three
had more than 10 a. of open-field land, most having
the bulk of their arable in closes. There were four
main common meadows: Blakemoor, the largest
with 25 a. or more, lay between Sainthill and Oakle
Street, while Sow Meadow (later South Meadow),
New Meadow, and Rod Meadow lay at different
places by the brook on the southern boundary of the
manor. Only five of the copyholders had parcels in
more than one of the meadows, but most also had
a few acres of meadow in closes. The copyholders had
between 1 a. and 20 a. in pasture closes and they also
had common in Birdwood and in the common
meadows and open fields after the hay- and cornharvests. (fn. 50)
By the beginning of the 19th century some inclosure had taken place in Easterworth field, which
was evidently represented by 15 a. lying in two fields
called Great and Little Easterwood, and in Oakle
field which had also been reduced to 15 a., but there
had been little reduction of the other open fields and
little or no reduction of the common meadow land.
All the fields and meadows were inclosed under Act
of Parliament in 1803; the award also inclosed
Birdwood Common and small strips of roadside
waste in Oakle Street, and reallotted certain old
inclosures. The Dean and Chapter of Gloucester as
lords of the manor were allotted a number of
cottages built on the waste, but the remainder of the
land of their estate was allotted directly to the
various leaseholders and copyholders. Ninety-five
acres of the waste, most of it in Birdwood Common,
were sold to meet the cost of the inclosure. (fn. 51)
In 1649 the cultivated land of Churcham manor
was under crops and grass in roughly equal proportions. (fn. 52) About 1780 the whole of Churcham
parish was said to consist of arable and grassland in
nearly equal proportions, (fn. 53) but c. 1803 arable
predominated. (fn. 54) The crops being grown in Churcham
manor c. 1267 included wheat, rye, barley, beans,
and oats, (fn. 55) and later in the medieval period flax was
also being grown in the parish. (fn. 56) Flax, hemp, and
turnips were among tithable produce in 1681. (fn. 57)
Cider-making was recorded from 1649 when four
tenants of Churcham manor had cider-mills, (fn. 58) and a
cider-retailer lived at Birdwood in 1841. (fn. 59) The main
farms on Churcham manor in 1812 were 265 a.
farmed from Churcham Court, 120 a. farmed from
the house west of the church, another farm of 105 a.,
Stone End (later Church Lane) farm with 68 a., and
Cursleys (later Beauchamp House) farm with 67 a. (fn. 60)
There were 14 farms in the Churcham division of
the parish in 1856 (fn. 61) but the number had risen to 20
by 1879; (fn. 62) by 1906 there had been an apparent
reduction to 14 (fn. 63) but there was another increase to
20 by 1939 when four of the farms were over 150 a. (fn. 64)
By 1970 the number of farms had been reduced by
about half; most of them then specialized in dairying
but two had considerable proportions of arable.
In 1086 there were three plough-teams and eight
servi on the demesne of Highnam manor. (fn. 65) In 1291
Gloucester Abbey had seven plough-lands in Highnam and Highleadon. (fn. 66) In 1607 the demesne of
Highnam manor comprised, apart from the immediate grounds of Highnam Court and the woods
and park, 153 a. of arable, 77½ a. of meadow and
139 a. of pasture; only 14½ a. of the arable lay in the
open fields but 53 a. of the meadow was common
meadow land. The lords of the manor then also
claimed the right to pasture 280 sheep in the Town
Ham east of Over Bridge; (fn. 67) the right to pasture
two horses in another of the Gloucester city
meadows, Wallham, further east, was retained by
the manor until 1797. (fn. 68) The vineyard belonging to
Gloucester Abbey at Over north-west of the bridge
was recorded from the mid 13th century. (fn. 69)
The tenants of Highnam manor in 1086 were 22
villani and four bordars with seven ploughs. (fn. 70) By c.
1267 a variety of tenements and tenures had
evolved. There was then one tenant holding ½
yardland freely but still owing some boon-reapings.
There were 43 tenements held for life or at the will
of the lord; they were of varying sizes, although
several, being evidently former mondaylands or
cottars' holdings, comprised either 4 a. of land and
½ a. of meadow or a messuage and curtilage. Most
of the holders of those tenements owed cash rents
and aid and eight also owed a few bedrips and
works in the hay-harvest; four owed ploughshares as
rent and one owed service to the sub-cellarer of the
abbey. The customary tenants c. 1267 were 19
half-yardlanders each holding 24 a. of arable and
3 a. of meadow, 16 pairs of tenants jointly holding ½
yardlands, 15 mondaymen holding 4 a. of land and
½ a. of meadow, and 12 cottars holding just a
messuage and curtilage. The labour-services owed
from ½ yardland every other week in the October-
July period were a day's ploughing (and harrowing
at seed-time) and four days' manual work which
might include threshing, mowing, weeding, haymaking, and carrying; in August and September the
half-yardlander had to provide two men to work each
Monday and one man for the four days following. He
also owed bedrips, and customary ploughings called
unlawenherthe and a harrowing called lonegginge. The
mondayman owed one day's work each week in the
October-July period and two days' in the harvest
months; he also owed two bedrips and had to collect
rushes at the feast of St. Peter. Some of the cottars
owed eight bedrips and three days' haymaking and
others sixteen bedrips and three days' haymaking.
The customary tenants also owed toll on ale and
animals sold, pannage of 1d. for each fully-grown
pig and ½d. for a young pig, and heriots of their best
beast, and they had to have the lord's licence for
their daughters to marry or for their sons to be
tonsured. (fn. 71)
Some customary tenements were leased for terms
of years or lives in the 1520s and 1530s, (fn. 72) but in 1607
the bulk of the land of the manor was held by copy.
There were 36 copyhold tenements, 18 in Highnam,
13 in Over, and 5 in Linton. The largest copyhold
was 71 a., three were c. 40 a., ten were 30-40 a.,
five 20-30 a., and the remainder under 20 a. The
copyholds were granted for up to three lives and
widows had freebench. In 1607 there were also four
free tenements, including one of 69 a. held by the
heirs of John Browne, 14 leaseholds, only one of
which with 39 a. was of any size, and four small
tenements held at will. (fn. 73)
There was a total of 15 open fields on Highnam
manor in 1607. Six were reserved to the tenants in
Highnam hamlet and lay between Highnam village
and Highnam Woods and north-west of the village
by the Newent road; they included the largest field,
the inappropriately-named Twelve Acre field with
86 a., Forehill field with 46 a., and Northway field,
Longhurst, Bleach field, and West field with between
7 a. and 28 a. There were four fields at Over reserved
to the inhabitants of that hamlet, Boulton, Ryecroft,
Bargus field, and Bovernhill, all lying in the vicinity
of Over Farm and ranging in size from 4 a. to 23 a.
The Linton tenants had two fields, Crash field with
21 a. and Gunnell field with 8 a., both lying west
of the lane leading to Linton Cottages. In addition
there was an open field called East Downs with 45 a.
lying east of the Newent road between Highnam and
Over and shared by the tenants of all three hamlets,
and two smaller fields, Reddings and Ell field lying
north and south of the junction of the Gloucester
and Newent roads and shared by the tenants of
Over and Linton. Most of the common meadow land
of the manor lay in two large meadows, Mickle Mead
with 107 a. and the Ham with 57 a., bordering the
Severn in the south-east part of the manor; there
were three smaller meadows with between 5 a. and
13 a., Rodway by the Leadon in the north-west,
Bickley by the Leadon north of Over, and Darley
near the Ham; and some tenants had meadow in
Maddox Holm and Kay Meadow, two common
meadows in Rudford parish. (fn. 74) In the mid 18th
century the Ham and Mickle Mead comprised
eight 'lengths' of intermixed meadow and two
lengths held in hand by the lords of the manor.
About 1 a. of the Ham was lot-meadow; it was then
divided into 19 lots held among 16 tenants. (fn. 75) In
1607 the copyholders had the bulk of their arable in
the open fields although most also had some arable
in closes; the open-field land of each tenant lay in
from one to six fields with holdings in five fields the
most usual. Most had meadow in three or four of the
common meadows and there were only a few meadow
closes. All the tenants had a fairly high proportion
of their land in pasture closes. (fn. 76) Common of pasture
in the open fields and common meadow after the
harvests was stinted at a beast and two sheep for
every 2 a. of land held. (fn. 77) There were also two small
common pastures, Over Pigham with 6 a. and
Linton Pigham with 4 a.; c. 1755 the former was
divided into 18 pastures shared among 13 tenants and
the latter into 7 pastures shared among 4 tenants. (fn. 78)
Considerable inclosure took place in Highnam
manor during the 17th and earlier 18th centuries;
between 1607 and c. 1755 the open-field arable was
reduced from 351 a. to 199 a. Little inclosure of
common meadow land took place in that period. (fn. 79)
The process of inclosure by private agreement had
been completed by 1841. (fn. 80)
Wheat, rye, peas, beans, barley, and oats were
among the crops being grown on Highnam manor c.
1267. (fn. 81) The cultivation of hops had given its name
to one of the fields adjoining Highnam Court by
1607 (fn. 82) and hops were still being grown there in the
early 18th century. (fn. 83) In 1769 turnips were being
grown on the home farm of the manor and in 1792
oats, barley, wheat, and potatoes; large numbers of
cheeses were also produced in the late 18th century. (fn. 84)
In the 1750s the main farms on the manor were
Home farm at Highnam with 251 a., others at
Highnam with 181 a. and 72 a., Over farm with
103 a., another at Over with 69 a., and three farms
at Linton, in the vicinity of Linton Cottages, with
148 a., 108 a., and 100 a. The land was then predominantly pasture, meadow, and orchard; only one
of the eight largest farms had more than one third
of its acreage arable. (fn. 85) From the mid 19th century
there have been four fair-sized farms in Highnam,
Linton, and Over: in 1854 they were Linton farm
with 500 a., Over farm with 330 a., Home farm with
269 a., and Highnam farm with 270 a. (fn. 86) In the later
19th century cheese-making and the production of
cider were carried on at all the farms. (fn. 87) In 1970
Linton farm, which remained the largest, specialized
in stock-raising.
There was a smith on Churcham manor c. 1267. (fn. 88)
In 1608 the only inhabitants recorded in nonagricultural occupations in the Churcham division
of the parish were a sailor and a carpenter. (fn. 89) There
was a smith's shop at a cottage on the GloucesterRoss road west of Church Lane in 1803, (fn. 90) and
between 1856 and the 1920s Churcham had two
blacksmiths, (fn. 91) evidently occupying that smithy and
another at Stone End. (fn. 92) A shoemaker was recorded
at Churcham in 1856. In 1856 there were also a
carpenter and a cooper there, (fn. 93) and two wheelwrights were working there in the earlier 20th
century. (fn. 94) A surgeon of Churcham was admitted to
practise in 1704, (fn. 95) and a veterinary surgeon lived
there in 1856. (fn. 96)
Alexander the smith held land at Over from
Highnam manor before 1258 (fn. 97) and there were three
smiths living on the manor c. 1267. (fn. 98) In 1803 there
was a blacksmith's shop at Over, (fn. 99) presumably that
on the north of the main road west of the hamlet
which was demolished in the 1840s and replaced by
another smithy nearer the Dog Inn. (fn. 1) During the
later 19th century Highnam, Over, and Linton had
a carpenter, a shoemaker, a tailor, and a straw-hat
maker, (fn. 2) the two last occupying Pope's Cottages west
of Over, which were built by Thomas Gambier Parry
for the purpose of settling new tradesmen on the
Highnam estate. (fn. 3) There were coach-builders at Over
from 1863 until the early 20th century. (fn. 4)
A mill was built or rebuilt on the New Leadon at
Over (fn. 5) in the mid 13th century by Gloucester Abbey,
which as a result became involved in a dispute with
Walter Mucegros, lord of Lassington, apparently
because the mill was causing the Leadon to flood in
Lassington; the dispute was settled by an agreement
of c. 1248 when the abbey undertook to restrict the
height of the sluice gates and mill-pond. (fn. 6) In 1525 the
abbey leased Over Mill to Adam Lye of Evesham
who agreed to build a new corn-mill on the site. (fn. 7)
It comprised two water-mills in 1607 (fn. 8) and three by
1682, (fn. 9) and in 1772 it was described as a complete
stack of corn-mills. (fn. 10) Over Mill remained in the
possession of lords of Highnam manor in 1843 (fn. 11) and
apparently until the 1860s when it was purchased by
the Leadon drainage commissioners whose works
involved a considerable reduction in the flow of
water to the mill. (fn. 12) It may have ceased functioning
as a water-mill at that time; by 1885, at least, it was
driven by steam. It apparently ceased working soon
afterwards, and was demolished in 1903. (fn. 13) There
was another water corn-mill on Highnam manor by
1607 situated at the south of the Great Pool; it had
apparently been built fairly recently, being described
as the new mill. (fn. 14) The mill was rebuilt in 1797, (fn. 15)
but it presumably ceased working c. 1818 when the
Great Pool was drained. (fn. 16) A windmill which stood
near the boundary of Churcham and Highnam
manors, west of Highnam Woods, had apparently
been demolished by 1765; (fn. 17) it may have existed by
1607 when part of the woods in that area was known
as Windmillhill Wood. (fn. 18)
There were five fishermen among the tenants of
Highnam manor c. 1267. (fn. 19) Gloucester Abbey had
two fishing weirs, called Lille Weir and New Weir,
in the Severn appertaining to Highnam manor in
1395 when the abbot and the kitchener were reported
to use 'seines, drags, fornwiles, and cornwiles' there
and another fish-trap called a 'butt' which was too
closely wrought and trapped the fry of lamprey and
salmon. (fn. 20) The two weirs were thrown down by
royal commissioners before 1541 when neither they
nor the fishery of a stretch of the Severn called the
Abbot's Pool yielded any profits. (fn. 21) A lease of the
Abbot's Pool fishery was granted by Sir Thomas
Lucy in 1598. (fn. 22) The lords of Highnam manor also
owned the fishing rights in the part of the Leadon
adjoining the manor; they were leased with Over
Mill in 1603. (fn. 23) The fishponds in the grounds of
Highnam Court are described above. (fn. 24)
Court rolls for
Churcham manor survive for the years 1291-2, (fn. 25)
1389, 1439-40, and 1443-5; (fn. 26) there are draft rolls
and other records of the courts held by the lessees of
the two moieties of the manor for several years in the
period 1719-77, (fn. 27) and a book of records of courts
held by the Dean and Chapter of Gloucester between
1778 and 1847, (fn. 28) presumably relating until c. 1800
to only one moiety of the manor. (fn. 29) For Highnam
manor court rolls survive for 1291-2, (fn. 30) 1385, 1388,
1396, 1417-18, 1421-2, and 1558-9, (fn. 31) and there is
an isolated record for 1779. (fn. 32) In the medieval period
the courts of both manors were merely courts baron
dealing mainly with tenurial and estate matters and
occasionally hearing pleas; by 1558, however, the
Highnam court claimed view of frankpledge. From
c. 1800 the Churcham court dealt solely with admissions and surrenders of copyholds and it
evidently ceased to be held altogether after 1847. (fn. 33)
The Highnam court had jurisdiction over Highleadon in Rudford parish as well as over Highnam,
Linton, and Over, and the four townships made
separate presentments in the court in the medieval
period and in the mid 16th century. The court
elected a tithingman and constable in the mid 16th
century, (fn. 34) and in 1679 there was one constable for
Highnam, Linton, Over, Highleadon, and Lassington, and another for the Churcham division. (fn. 35)
Four churchwardens were sworn for the parish in
1576, (fn. 36) and in 1681 there were two for the Churcham
division and one for Highnam, Linton, and Over. (fn. 37)
By the late 18th century, however, there was one for
each of the two divisions of the parish; they kept
separate accounts, those of the churchwarden for
Highnam, Linton, and Over surviving from 1767. (fn. 38)
The two divisions were also separate for the purposes
of poor-relief in the early 19th century when there
were two overseers levying rates and accounting for
Highnam, Linton, and Over; their accounts survive
from 1819. (fn. 39) The usual forms of relief were then
being administered by the overseers for Highnam,
Linton, and Over who had the use of a poorhouse
at Over. (fn. 40) The cost of relief in that division increased
steadily during the late 18th and early 19th centuries
from £38 in 1776 to £210 in 1814; (fn. 41) it remained
about the same in 1824 but by 1831 had risen again
to £307. (fn. 42) Ten people were receiving permanent
relief in 1803 (fn. 43) but from 1813 the number was
usually about 19. (fn. 44) The cost of poor relief in the
Churcham division of the parish rose from £75 in
1776 to £274 in 1814; (fn. 45) by 1825 the cost had fallen
to £133, but later it was usually higher, reaching a
peak of £289 in 1833. (fn. 46) Ten people were receiving
permanent relief there in 1803 and 24 in 1815. (fn. 47)
Highnam, Linton, and Over became part of the
Gloucester Union in 1835 (fn. 48) and remained in the
Gloucester Rural District in 1970. The Churcham
division of the parish was included in the Westbury
Union in 1835 (fn. 49) and became part of East Dean
Rural District. (fn. 50)
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NORTHEAST OHIO COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS; Service Employees International Union, Local 1199, Plaintiffs–Appellees/Cross–Appellant, Kyle Wangler; Columbus Coalition for the Homeless, Plaintiffs, Ohio Democratic Party, Intervenor, v. SECRETARY OF State of OHIO, Defendant,
State of Ohio, Intervenor–Appellant/Cross–Appellee. v. Secretary of State of Ohio, Defendant–Appellant.
Nos. 11–3035, 11–3036, 11–3037.
Argued: April 20, 2012. -- August 30, 2012
ARGUED:Erick D. Gale, Office of the Ohio Attorney General, Columbus, Ohio, for Appellant/Cross–Appellee. L. Bradfield Hughes, Porter, Wright, Morris & Arthur LLP, Columbus, Ohio, for Appellees/Cross–Appellants. ON BRIEF:Erick D. Gale, Richard N. Coglianese, Office of the Ohio Attorney General, Columbus, Ohio, for Appellant/Cross–Appellee in cases 11–3035/3036 and Appellant in 11–3037. L. Bradfield Hughes, Porter, Wright, Morris & Arthur LLP, Columbus, Ohio, Caroline H. Gentry, Porter Wright Morris & Arthur LLP, Dayton, Ohio, Subodh Chandra, The Chandra Law Firm, LLC, Cleveland, Ohio, H. Ritchey Hollenbaugh, Carlile Patchen & Murphy LLP, Columbus, Ohio, for Appellees/Cross–Appellants in cases 11–3035/3036 and Appellees in 11–3037.
OPINION
In 2006, Plaintiffs-appellees/Cross-appellants Northeast Ohio Coalition for the Homeless (“NEOCH”) and Service Employees International Union, Local 1199 (“SEIU”) brought an action under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 against then Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell challenging several provisions of Ohio's 2006 Voter ID law. The parties negotiated consent orders in 2006 and 2008. In 2009, NEOCH and SEIU filed a motion for attorneys' fees with respect to the 2008 orders, which the district court granted. The Ohio Secretary of State appealed the fee and cost award, and the parties ultimately negotiated a consent decree signed by the district court in April 2010. In June 2010, the plaintiffs filed another motion for attorneys' fees and costs, this time for work performed (1) regarding prior motions for attorneys' fees submitted in the litigation, (2) during the appeal of the award of attorneys' fees, and (3) negotiating the consent decree. The district court granted the motion in part, but because it found that the motion regarded a supplemental fee request, it reduced the fee award to three percent of the award granted in the main case pursuant to Coulter v. Tennessee, 805 F.2d 146 (6th Cir.1986).
On appeal, the State of Ohio and the Ohio Secretary of State argue that the 2010 consent decree was a settlement in full of all of the plaintiffs' claims, thus waiving any subsequent claim for further attorneys' fees. The plaintiffs cross-appeal, arguing that the district court erred in applying Coulter to limit their supplemental fee award. For the following reasons, we affirm.
I.
This appeal over an award of attorneys' fees stems from litigation over Ohio's voter identification laws, passed in 2006, which culminated in a consent decree entered into by the parties in 2010. Although the parties' appeal and cross-appeal focus on the consent decree and the district court's grant of the motion for attorneys' fees filed after the consent decree was entered, the parties' arguments are premised in part on an understanding of the factual and procedural background leading up to the consent decree.
In 2006, NEOCH and SEIU brought an action under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 against then Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell in his official capacity seeking to have portions of the Ohio “new voter-identification laws” declared unconstitutional. On November 1, 2006, the parties entered into a consent order, which governed the November 2006 general election and provided specific guidance and clarification to County Boards of Elections regarding identification procedures. An enforcement order was entered on November 14, 2006, after it was discovered that some Board of Election employees failed to follow the provisions of the consent order.
On January 4, 2008, the plaintiffs filed a motion under 42 U.S.C. § 1988 and 28 U.S.C. §§ 1821 and 1920 for attorneys' fees and costs which were incurred in relation to the November 2006 consent order and the November 2006 enforcement order. Over the defendants'1 opposition, on September 30, 2008, the district court granted the plaintiffs' motion for attorneys' fees pending a hearing to determine a reasonable fee award.
Prior to the November 2008 election, the plaintiffs sought leave to file a proposed supplemental complaint, citing concerns that the County Boards of Elections would continue to apply inconsistent standards to their evaluation of provisional ballots, and also requested a preliminary injunction to prevent the enforcement of the voter identification laws in the 2008 election. In order to settle the ongoing litigation, then Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner issued Directive 2008–101, which provided guidelines for Ohio's “boards of election in processing and counting provisional ballots.” By agreement of the parties, the district court issued an order on October 24, 2008, which adopted the directive. The court also issued an additional order on October 27, 2008, which addressed the effect of poll worker error on the counting of provisional ballots and instructions regarding acceptable addresses for persons without a permanent addresses.
On January 20, 2009, the plaintiffs filed their second motion for attorneys' fees and costs. The second motion requested fees and costs related to procuring the October 2008 orders as well as fees reasonably related to the orders. On July 28, 2009, the district court granted the second motion for attorneys' fees and costs and also awarded reasonable attorneys' fees and costs relating to the first motion for fees and costs. In total, the district court awarded $474,418.50 in attorneys' fees and $29,995.61 in costs and expenses.
The State of Ohio, as intervenor-defendant, appealed the award of attorneys' fees to this court. The parties subsequently began to work with the office of the circuit mediator in an effort to resolve the appeal.2 The district court approved and entered a consent decree on April 19, 2010. The parties included the following explanation of the decree in the preamble:
The parties, desiring that this action be settled by an appropriate Consent Decree ․ and without the burden of protracted litigation, agree to the jurisdiction of this Court over the parties and the subject matter of this action. Subject to this Court's approval of this Decree, and subject to the continuing validity of this Decree if it or its terms are challenged in any other court, the parties waive a hearing and findings of fact and conclusions of law on all issues, and further agree to the entry of this Decree as final and binding among and between themselves as to the issues raised in the Plaintiffs' Complaint and Supplemental Complaint, and the matters resolved in this Decree.
This Decree, being entered with the consent of the parties, shall in no way constitute an adjudication or finding on the merits of Case No. 2:06–CV–896, nor be construed as an admission by the Defendants of any wrongdoing or violation of any applicable federal or state law or regulation.
In resolution of this action, the parties hereby AGREE to, and the Court expressly APPROVES, ENTERS, and ORDERS, the following․
The consent decree provided for general injunctive relief, including (1) the adoption of Directive 2008–80 issued by the Ohio Secretary of State as an order of the district court, and (2) the agreement that the Secretary of State would instruct the County Board of Elections to follow agreed-upon rules governing the casting and counting of provisional ballots for persons lacking identification other than a social security number. The consent decree further provided that the Secretary of State “shall issue a Directive to all Boards of Elections that sets forth the text of the injunctive relief described․” The consent decree also provided that it was to remain in effect until June 13, 2013, and that “[a]ny of the parties may file a motion with the Court to modify, extend or terminate this Decree for good cause shown.” Finally, the consent decree contained a “miscellaneous provision[ ]” where the parties agreed that within sixty days of the decree's entry the Secretary of State “shall pay to counsel for Plaintiffs the attorneys' fees that were previously awarded by this Court, as follows: $321,942.15.51 [sic ] to Porter Wright Morris & Arthur LLP, $99,722.58 to Carlile Patchen & Murphy LLP, and $82,749.38 to The Chandra Law Firm, LLC.”
On June 3, 2010, the plaintiffs filed their third motion for attorneys' fees and costs. The motion requested attorneys' fees and costs for (1) briefing and arguing the prior fees motions, (2) opposing and settling the appeal of the district court decision granting the prior motions, and (3) “negotiating the April 19, 2010 Consent Decree which terminated th[e] litigation.” The requested fees and costs covered work the attorneys engaged in between January 2009 and April 2010.
The defendants opposed the third motion for attorneys' fees and costs, arguing that the consent decree was final and binding as to the claims set forth in the complaint, and that as a result, the plaintiffs waived any opportunity to seek additional fees by entering into the consent decree. The defendants submitted affidavits from an attorney in the Secretary of State's office and an attorney in the Ohio Attorney General's Office who acted as client contact for the State of Ohio during the settlement negotiations to argue that “inclusion of a final and certain amount of attorneys' fees was a material term of the complete settlement” and the defendants “would not have agreed to settle this case if the parties had intended to leave the issue of additional attorneys' fees open or unsettled.” In the alternative, the defendants argued that the motion for fees should be denied or reduced because the requested fees were unreasonable. Specifically, they argued that because the third motion was essentially a request for attorneys' fees expended in obtaining a prior award of attorneys' fees (a “fees for fees” request), the fee award should be capped at three percent of the fee award in the main case under the rule announced in Coulter v. Tennessee, 805 F.2d 146, 151 (6th Cir.1986), and that the bills submitted were unreasonable for the work required.
On November 30, 2010, the district court granted in part and denied in part the third motion for fees and costs. The district court concluded that the plaintiffs did not waive their right to receive further attorneys' fees because the parties did not intend the consent decree to be a final disposition of all claims and found that the plaintiffs were entitled to collect an additional fee award. The district court found the requested hours and hourly rates to be reasonable, but agreed with the defendants that the three-percent rule from Coulter should apply to the request for supplemental fees. The court found that “the hours spent at all three stages of this attorneys' fees case constituted preparation for and litigation of the attorneys' fees case” and that as a result, the entire fee request was subject to Coulter's three percent rule. The district court therefore awarded fees equivalent to three percent of the award in the main case, for a total supplemental attorney fee award of $15,132.50.3 The court also granted plaintiffs their requested costs and expenses.
The defendants appeal the award of fees and costs. The plaintiffs cross-appeal the supplemental fee award.
II.
“A district court's interpretation of a consent decree or judgment is a matter of law subject to de novo review, and the underlying findings of fact are reviewed for clear error.” Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians v. Engler, 146 F.3d 367, 371 (6th Cir.1998). We review a district court's award of attorneys' fees and costs under 42 U.S.C. § 1988 for abuse of discretion. Dubay v. Wells, 506 F.3d 422, 431 (6th Cir.2007). An abuse of discretion is a “definite and firm conviction that the trial court committed a clear error of judgment.” Id. (internal quotation marks omitted).
III.
A.
The Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Award Act (the “Fees Act”), 42 U.S.C. § 1988(b), “permits a court in its discretion to award the ‘prevailing party’ in a § 1983 action ‘reasonable’ attorney's fees as part of the costs.” Pouillon v. Little, 326 F.3d 713, 716 (6th Cir.2003). The Fees Act does not “bestow[ ] fee awards upon attorneys nor render[ ] them nonwaivable or nonnegotiable․” Evans v. Jeff D., 475 U.S. 720, 731–32 (1986). Thus, a prevailing plaintiff may waive attorney's fees as part of a negotiated settlement. See id. at 732–37. In considering whether a settlement includes a release or waiver of a claim to fees under 42 U.S.C. § 1988, we have adopted an approach that does not require the parties to reach an explicit agreement on the issue of attorneys' fees. McCuiston v. Hoffa, 202 F. App'x 858, 863 (6th Cir.2006) (citing Jennings v. Metro. Gov't of Nashville, 715 F.2d 1111, 1114 (6th Cir.1988)). Instead, the critical inquiry is “whether the parties intended the settlement to be a final disposition of all claims, rather than whether the parties intended to include attorneys' fees in the settlement.” Jennings, 715 F .2d at 1114. Because the parties need not have entered into “a separate agreement on each aspect of the claim in order to have reached a settlement in full,” in conducting the inquiry, “the silence of the parties regarding attorneys' fees is not controlling.” Id. Although intent is generally a question of fact, “it may be determined by the court when the record permits only one inference.” McCuiston, 202 F. App'x at 865 (citing Jennings, 715 F.2d at 1114).
In Jennings, we found that the settlement in question was a final disposition of all claims precluding a later request for attorneys' fees where, after the monetary settlement was paid, the district court entered a final order dismissing the action “with prejudice” which did not mention costs. 715 F.2d at 1112, 1114. In reaching this conclusion, we emphasized that the intention of the parties was to settle all claims, that one of the lawyers requesting fees admitted that he had not intended to request fees at the time of settlement (and thus that he did not intend to reserve settlement of that issue), and that the lawyer agreed to an order of dismissal with prejudice which was a final disposition of the lawsuit. Id. at 1114. We have also previously found that a stipulated consent judgment was a comprehensive settlement in full where the terms of the judgment stated that the judgment was a “final order of the court, disposing of all remaining claims in this action.” McCuiston, 202 F. App'x at 861, 865. Similarly, in Toth v. UAW, we found that a district court's grant of a fee award was precluded because the parties had entered into a settlement agreement which “made a final disposition of all claims, including any request for attorneys' fees, regardless of whether or not such fees were specifically mentioned in that agreement.” 743 F.2d 398, 406–407 (6th Cir.1984). We found that the provision which provided that the “agreement constitutes the full and complete settlement of all claims, allegations, or other causes of action which relate in any manner to the allegations set forth in Count III” was the “provision of th[e] settlement most directly bearing on the fee issue.” Id. at 406.
B.
The consent decree does not explicitly refer to attorneys' fees and costs incurred during the time period claimed in the plaintiffs' third motion for fees (between January 2009 and April 2010). Instead, it only provides for the payment of “attorneys' fees that were previously awarded․” The issue of attorneys' fees seems to be an afterthought, included only in a miscellaneous provision of the consent decree, which is largely merits-focused. Indeed, the majority of the consent decree focuses on issues relating to the substantive challenge to the procedures surrounding the implementation of the state voter ID laws and provides for injunctive relief. The consent decree lists the purposes of the decree as ensuring that the “fundamental right to vote is fully protected for registered and qualified voters who lack the identification required by the Ohio Voter ID laws, including indigent and homeless voters,” that the voters not be “required to purchase identification as a condition to exercising their fundamental right to vote,” that the votes be counted “even if they are cast by provisional ballot on Election Day,” and that voters will not be deprived of the right to vote because of differing interpretations of the Provisional Ballot Laws or because of poll worker error. Because the consent decree is overwhelmingly focused on the merits and is silent as to the availability of the attorneys' fees requested in the third motion, we must consider whether the parties intended the consent decree to operate as a final disposition of all claims. Jennings, 715 F.2d at 1114.
To support their argument that the parties intended the consent decree to be a comprehensive settlement, the defendants argue that the plain language of the decree requires the conclusion that it was a final disposition of all claims because the preamble refers to the desire to settle the “action ․ without the burden of protracted litigation” and states that the decree is “final and binding” and that the parties agree to the terms of the consent decree “in resolution of this action.” It is true, as defendants argue, that the scope of the consent decree is specifically defined as “final and binding ․ as to the issues raised in the Plaintiffs' Complaint and Supplemental Complaint, and the matters resolved in this Decree” and that the plaintiffs did request attorneys' fees in their complaint. However, the language in the consent decree is distinguishable from the language in McCuiston—where a final disposition of all claims was found—which stated that the consent judgment “dispos[ed] of all remaining claims ․“ 202 F. App'x at 865 (emphasis added). Similarly, the agreement here is distinguishable from a settlement agreement which stated that the defendant was “fully and forever” released from “any and all claims, demands, damages, actions, rights of actions”—language we found “sweeping” and that indicated the parties' intent to bar future fee awards. Fulford v. Forest Hills Eagle Supermarket, 822 F.2d 1088, 1987 WL 38035, at *1 (6th Cir.1987) (per curiam ) (table). Because the language in the consent decree is limited in scope when compared to the operative language in McCuiston and Fulford, the concern that “allow [ing] attorney's fees to [the plaintiffs] in the face of such language would make it impossible to devise a complete settlement of claims” is reduced. Id. Further, a natural reading of the specific language chosen, “issues raised in the Complaint,” does not automatically lead to the conclusion that all claims are extinguished by the consent decree. “Issues raised” suggests claims or the counts raised in the complaint, and not necessarily the relief prayed for in a complaint.
The defendants contend that to distinguish the specific language referring to the decree as “final and binding among and between themselves as to the issues raised in the Plaintiffs' Complaint and Supplemental Complaint,” from the language in McCuiston, which stated that the stipulated consent judgment was a “final order of the court, disposing of all remaining claims in this action,” 202 F. App'x at 865, is to make a “hyper-technical distinction without any meaning.” Appellants' Br. at 31. However, we must consider the specific terms of any settlement when determining whether the parties intended to make a final disposition of all claims. See McCuiston, 202 F. App'x at 865 (finding a comprehensive settlement where consent judgment contained language stating that it “dispose[d] of ‘all remaining claims' ”); Toth, 743 F.2d at 406 (finding provision stating that settlement agreement “constitutes the full and complete settlement of all claims” probative on fee issue); Jennings, 715 F.2d at 1114 (noting that parties agreed to terms that called for an order of dismissal with prejudice). It makes little sense to argue that specific word choices should not be viewed as probative and potentially significant when the terms of a relevant settlement agreement are key to shedding light on the intent of the parties. Here the words chosen are at least somewhat more specific and limited than those used in other settlement agreements where final dispositions of all claims have been found.
The defendants cite In re Lybarger, 793 F.2d 136, 138 (6th Cir.1986), to support their argument that the inclusion of language referring to the parties' desire to settle the action “without the burden of protracted litigation” demonstrates the intent of the parties to resolve all claims. In Lybarger, we found that a plaintiff waived her right to appeal an order denying an application for supplemental attorney's fees where the consent decree specifically stated that the parties were “desirous of settling these matters without further litigation” and provided that the parties would attempt to agree on a fee award and if they failed to do so, the plaintiff's lawyer would submit his fee request to the district court which would make a final and non-appealable decision on fees. 793 F.2d at 137–38. When the district court denied plaintiff's attorney's request for supplemental fees, the plaintiff attempted to argue that the consent decree only prohibited appeal of the district court's decision regarding fees incurred in connection with the merits and in preparation of the original application for fees. We rejected reading the language of the consent decree so narrowly as to allow appeal of the district court decision on supplemental fees. Id. at 138. But unlike the case at hand, the decision in Lybarger focused on whether or not the plaintiff waived the right to appeal the district court decision regarding a supplemental fee award, not whether the right to request the supplemental fee award itself was precluded. Lybarger is thus of little help to the defendants.
The affidavits submitted by both parties are consistent with each side's purported intentions regarding attorneys' fees when negotiating the consent decree. Ohio law allows the consideration of extrinsic evidence regarding an ambiguous term in a contract or consent decree. See Seals v. Gen. Motors Corp., 546 F.3d 766, 771 (6th Cir.2008); Waste Mgmt. of Ohio, Inc. v. City of Dayton, 169 F. App'x 976, 988–89 (6th Cir.2006). Here, the extrinsic evidence offered is confined to the parties' statements regarding what they intended to negotiate for during the consent decree negotiations and what they believed they were agreeing to under the terms of the consent decree.4 The affidavits simply reflect the fact that the parties had competing goals in forming the decree and possessed differing conceptions as to whether the decree was to extinguish all further claims for fees; they do not demonstrate that the parties explicitly discussed whether or not supplemental fees would be available. Thus, the affidavits do not provide substantial assistance in determining whether the consent decree was intended as a final disposition of all claims.
The parties also disagree as to the import of the fact that the consent decree contained language allowing for modification, extension, and termination of the decree for good cause, as well as the fact that the decree was only to remain in effect until June 30, 2013. The district court found that because the parties agreed to allow for modification and extension of the agreement, the consent decree was further distinguishable from the consent judgment in McCuiston, which “did not allow the parties to seek to modify or extend the terms of the agreement and contained no qualifiers as to the scope of the consent judgment's terms.” The defendants contend that because a consent decree is a settlement agreement subject to continued judicial oversight, it is standard to include termination dates and that the ability to modify a consent decree should not preclude finding a settlement in full.
It is true that a consent decree is a “settlement agreement subject to continued judicial policing.” Vanguards of Cleveland v. City of Cleveland, 23 F.3d 1013, 1017 (6th Cir.1994) (internal quotation marks omitted). In that sense, the defendants are correct that the ability to modify a consent decree should not prevent a finding of a settlement in full. However, it is also true that the fact that the district court retains the power to modify or police a consent decree is different from the affirmative decision to include a provision that allows any party to move to “modify, extend, or terminate” the decree for good cause. The fact that the decree expressly provides for modification or extension by the parties for good cause does provide some, albeit limited, support for reading the decree as providing for something less than a final disposition of all claims. If the parties truly thought that the decree worked a final disposition of all claims, they might have opted not to include the language regarding modification or extension and simply relied on the default rule allowing for continued judicial policing and modification.
The defendants finally argue that construing the consent decree to be anything but a final disposition of all claims would set a dangerous precedent because it would make states wary of entering into consent decrees. We disagree with such a broad assertion. The potential impact of our construction is merely to incentivize prudent parties to exercise care in drafting settlement agreements and encourage them to ensure that the language they choose clearly indicates whether they intend a final disposition of all claims. In the consent decree at issue, the defendants could have negotiated for the addition of a single sentence to the miscellaneous provisions section stating that the agreement regarding attorneys' fees previously awarded constitutes the entire agreement regarding fees and costs and that it disposes of any and all existing or future requests for attorneys' fees and costs, or the defendants could have requested language in the preamble that clearly states that all remaining claims are extinguished by the consent decree. They simply did not do so.
Accordingly, because the language of the consent decree contains both broad language and language limiting its scope, it is distinguishable from other consent decrees or settlements where a final disposition of all claims has been found on the basis of clear and broad language. The affidavits in the record do not clarify matters so as to permit a single inference that the parties intended a final disposition of all claims. As a result, we conclude that the plaintiffs did not waive their right to petition for supplemental fees and costs.
IV.
In their cross-appeal, the plaintiffs essentially challenge two aspects of the district court's grant of supplemental attorneys' fees and costs. First, the plaintiffs argue that although the district court correctly found that they are entitled to an attorneys' fees award, the district court erred in applying the three percent cap from Coulter to limit the fee award because the “unusual circumstances” exception to the rule renders the three percent rule inapplicable to the supplemental fees award. They also contend that the “three percent rule” from Coulter should be reexamined because it leads to severe consequences and because a rigid misapplication of Coulter is inconsistent with the intent of Congress in passing the Fees Act, which was to provide an economic incentive for attorneys to take on meritorious civil rights cases. Second, they argue that even if Coulter is correctly applied to some of the work that provided the basis for the third motion for fees and costs, the district court erroneously applied Coulter to all of the work underlying their third motion.
A.
“Although time spent in preparing, presenting, and trying attorney fee applications is compensable; some guidelines and limitations must be placed on the size of the[ ] fees. Otherwise the prospect of large fees later on may discourage early settlement of cases by rewarding protracted litigation of both the civil rights case and the attorney fee case.” Coulter, 805 F.2d 151. Because the “attorney fee case is not the case Congress expressed its intent to encourage[,] ․ in order to be included, it must ride piggyback on the civil rights case.” Id. We established a general rule that “[i]n the absence of unusual circumstances, the hours allowed for preparing and litigating the attorney fee case should not exceed 3% of the hours in the main case when the issue is submitted on the papers without a trial and should not exceed 5% of the hours in the main case when a trial is necessary.” Id. Subsequent cases have applied and affirmed the controlling nature of the Coulter three percent rule. See Gonter v. Hunt Valve Co., 510 F.3d 610, 620–21 (6th Cir.2007); Auto Alliance Int'l, Inc. v. U.S. Customs Serv., 155 F. App'x 226, 229 (6th Cir.2005).
B.
The plaintiffs argue that we should reexamine Coulter, largely because they contend that Coulter's three percent rule is in tension with Weisenberger v. Huecker, 593 F.2d 49 (6th Cir .1979). The plaintiffs argue that we should return to the principles espoused in Weisenberger. In Weisenberger, we found that the district court erred in denying prevailing plaintiffs requested attorneys' fees and costs incurred in pursuing their attorneys' fees awards in two § 1983 cases and awarded the plaintiffs ninety percent of the hours submitted in their supplemental request. 593 F.3d at 54 & n. 12. However, in Weisenberger, we were focused on applying the recently passed Fees Act and determining whether, under the Fees Act, attorneys' fee awards should include an award for time spent pursuing attorneys' fees. Id. at 53–54. Weisenberger predated Coulter, which found, consistent with Weisenberger, that attorneys are entitled to attorneys' fees for preparing and litigating the attorneys' fees case—but also found that a limiting principle was necessary to prevent the pursuit of such supplemental fee awards from subverting Congress's intent in passing the Fees Act, which was “to encourage lawyers to bring successful civil rights cases, not successful attorney fee cases.” Coulter, 805 F.2d at 151.
Although the supplemental fee award granted by this court in Weisenberger is likely greater than that which would have been awarded under Coulter,5 the two cases are easily reconciled. Coulter elaborates upon and develops the law surrounding attorney fee cases, which Weisenberger acknowledged are recoverable under the Fees Act. As noted above, we have followed Coulter, a published case, in both published and unpublished cases. Coulter itself also provides that in “unusual circumstances” the cap on the supplemental fee award at three percent of the hours in the main case (or five percent if the main case goes to trial) will not apply. Coulter, 805 F.2d at 151. Thus, Coulter would not necessarily or automatically preclude the fees granted in Weisenberger. Because this is not a case where a later decision conflicts with an earlier one, see Salmi v. Sec'y of Health & Human Servs., 774 F.2d 685, 689 (6th Cir.1985), we cannot revisit Coulter here.
Although the plaintiffs argue that it is unlikely that attorneys will continue to act as private attorneys general in taking on civil rights suits “if they will be compensated for only a tiny fraction of every 100 hours that they reasonably spend briefing legitimate fee requests, defending appeals of fee awards, and negotiating lengthy and detailed consent decrees,” this argument overstates the impact of the Coulter rule. The plaintiffs are correct that any cap on attorneys' fees might discourage attorneys from taking on civil rights cases, but the Fees Act itself presumes that the award in the main case provides sufficient incentive for attorneys. And as Coulter explains, while the availability of an award of fees for defending fee awards provides additional protection for such lawyers, this needs to be balanced against the unwanted incentives that could result from protracted litigation seeking fees for fees. Moreover, the plaintiffs err in arguing that attorneys will only receive a tiny fraction of every 100 hours they work on their attorneys' fees cases. The Coulter rule focuses on the hours spent on the main case. Thus, in a particularly complicated and lengthy main case, an attorney may be able to recover all of the claimed hours spent on the attorneys' fees case.
The plaintiffs argue that even if the panel declines to reexamine Coulter, the Coulter rule should not apply to their third motion for fees and costs because “unusual circumstances” exist which render the three percent cap inapplicable. In essence, the plaintiffs argue that the protracted and complicated nature of the litigation on the merits, as well as the significant challenges to the fee requests mounted by the defendants, demonstrate unusual circumstances distinguishable from the case in Coulter, which the district court characterized as a “simple” case.
We have previously rejected an argument that “ ‘protracted’ fee litigation [in the district court] is itself an unusual circumstance justifying a larger recovery․” Auto Alliance, 155 F. App'x at 229. However, we have also found the three percent cap on fees for fees inappropriate where the losing party engaged in “protracted and needless appellate litigation” because granting fees would discourage the losing party from engaging in the kind of protracted fees for fees litigation Coulter sought to limit. Lamar Adver. Co. v. Charter Twp. of Van Buren, 178 F. App'x 498, 502 (6th Cir.2006).
Although the litigation over the fees award in this case involved a somewhat unusual procedural history and the main case was arguably more complex than the one-day bench trial involved in Coulter, the district court did not abuse its discretion in capping the supplemental fee award at three percent. The district court necessarily has a “superior understanding of the litigation.” Hensley v. Eckerhart, 461 U.S. 424, 437 (1983). And here, the district court did not find that the actions of the defendants in appealing the fee award justified a finding of “unusual circumstances.” Although the defendants' appeal did prolong the fee litigation, there is no indication that the appeal was needless or meritless. The defendants opposed the original motion for fees on several grounds that do not appear to be frivolous. For example, the defendants opposed the original fees motion, arguing in part that if the district court were to find that the plaintiffs were prevailing parties, the court should still reduce any fee award to reflect the plaintiffs' less-than-complete degree of success. The district court agreed with this argument and noted in its analysis of a reasonable fee award that the “Plaintiffs' success ․ is not as broad as they have characterized it” and, in light of the partial success, that “the lodestar amount may be reduced because attorney's fees are not typically awarded for unsuccessful claims.” As a result, the district court granted a hearing on the reasonableness of the claimed fees, which both parties had requested. The district court also agreed with some of the defendants' further objections to the plaintiffs' fee requests in its analysis of the first and second motions for fees and costs. The court reduced the hours claimed by the plaintiffs and also applied a twenty percent reduction to the lodestar amount in recognition of its finding that the plaintiffs achieved less-than-total success on all of their claims. Therefore, the defendants' initial challenges to the fee awards were not frivolous, and it is unlikely that their decision to appeal the district court's fee award for the first and second fee requests was needless, given that some of their objections to the plaintiffs' claims were already recognized by the district court as reasonable. This is distinguishable from the situation in Lamar Advertising, where the losing defendant had engaged in a needless appellate challenge to the fee award. 178 F. App'x at 502. Thus, the district court's decision to apply Coulter's three percent rule to the supplemental fee award does not lead to a “definite and firm conviction that the trial court committed a clear error of judgment.” Dubay, 506 F.3d at 431 (internal quotation marks omitted).
C.
In their final challenge to the district court's partial grant of their third motion for costs and fees, the plaintiffs argue that the district court abused its discretion when it applied Coulter to all of the work for which they sought to be compensated in the third motion. The district court found that all three stages of work claimed in the third motion for fees “constituted preparation for and litigation of the attorneys' fee case” and as a result, applied the Coulter three percent rule to all of the hours claimed in the third motion. The plaintiffs argue that the time spent defending their main case fee award on appeal and the time spent negotiating the consent decree should not be considered time spent preparing and litigating the attorney fee case and that Coulter should not apply to cap their fee award for the hours claimed for those hours.6
The district court did not abuse its discretion in finding that the time spent opposing and settling the appeal of the fee award for the main case was time spent preparing and litigating the attorney fee case. The plaintiffs argue that Weisenberger and Lamar Advertising demonstrate that prevailing plaintiffs should be able to recover fees incurred defending main case fee awards on appeal. However, Weisenberger predated Coulter's limitation on the total possible recovery and does not support the proposition that a deviation from Coulter is appropriate when a plaintiff must defend a fee award on appeal. Further, Lamar Advertising actually notes that fees for fees are available for litigation “on the fee request at both the lower court level and at the appellate level.” 178 F. App'x at 502. While we did not apply the Coulter rule to limit the fees the plaintiffs requested in Lamar Advertising for hours their attorneys spent defending their fee award, our decision was premised not upon the mere fact that time was spent defending the appeal, but upon the facts that the losing party “protracted the ‘fees for fees' litigation by making spurious arguments” on appeal and engaged in “protracted and needless appellate litigation.” Id.
Nor did the district court abuse its discretion in finding that the hours spent negotiating the consent decree were hours spent preparing and litigating the attorneys' fees case. While the consent decree negotiations present a somewhat unique situation, the time spent working on the decree is traceable to the litigation of the attorneys' fees case. The parties engaged in discussions with the circuit mediator only after the defendants appealed the original fee award; accordingly, the decree negotiations—and the inclusion of the provision that the Secretary of State would pay the entire fee award for the main case in the consent decree—are the direct result of the appeal of the fee award. The negotiations which led to the inclusion of the provision regarding payment of fees previously awarded are thus traceable to litigation in pursuit of obtaining fees and the district court did not abuse its discretion in finding that the hours spent negotiating the consent decree are properly limited by the Coulter three percent rule.
V.
For the foregoing reasons, we affirm the judgment of the district court.
CONCURRENCE
I write separately because I question the continued vitality of the three-percent rule in cases seeking attorneys' fees to recover the costs of pursuing fees under 42 U.S.C. § 1988. No other circuit—to my knowledge—has adopted a bright-line rule for calculating “fees for fees” like the one we stated in Coulter v. Tennessee, 805 F.2d 146 (6th Cir.1986), cert. denied, 482 U.S. 914 (1987). Although I am sympathetic to the reasoning espoused in Coulter for such a rule, I see no justification in the statute or the legislative history for divesting the district courts of their discretion to determine whether fees for fees should be awarded and in what amount. However, because Coulter is binding Sixth Circuit precedent, I concur with the majority's analysis in this case. I also agree that the exception for unusual circumstances warranting a departure from the three-percent rule is not applicable in this case. The parties were free to contract around Coulter upon realizing that the consent decree would encompass more than just settling the litigation over the attorneys' fees, just as they were free to specify clearly that the consent decree would be final as to all claims.
FOOTNOTES
1. “Defendants” refers to Jennifer Brunner, the then Ohio Secretary of State and the State of Ohio, as intervenor-defendant.
2. Although the appeal was taken from the award of attorneys' fees, the mediation discussions and subsequent negotiations of a consent decree included efforts to resolve substantive issues raised in the plaintiffs' complaint and provide for injunctive relief.
3. The fee “awards in the main case were as follows: (1) $321,942 .15.51 [sic ] to Porter Wright; (2) $99,722.58 to Carlile Patchen; and (3) $82,749.38 to the Chandra Law Firm.” Because each firm requested fees greater than the three percent cap on supplemental fee awards, the district court awarded three percent of the fee awards made in the main case to each law firm: $9,658.30 to Porter Wright, $2,991.70 to Carlile Patchen, and $2,482.50 to the Chandra Law Firm.
4. The defendants argue that the affidavits from plaintiffs' counsel are not probative of intent and provide no evidence to contradict their view of the settlement negotiations precisely because they are affidavits from counsel and not from the prevailing party (NEOCH and SEIU). The defendants contend that Venegas v. Mitchell, 495 U.S. 82, 88 (1990), establishes that the prevailing party, not the lawyer, is the one eligible for the attorney fee award and that only the prevailing party possesses the right to waive, settle, or negotiate their eligibility for an attorney fee award. However, Venegas did not confront the question of whether an attorney affidavit is inappropriate extrinsic evidence for a court to consider in evaluating whether a consent decree was intended to be a full disposition of all claims. Further, in Jennings, we cited an admission of the plaintiff's lawyer to support our finding that the settlement was a final disposition of all claims. 715 F.2d at 1113–14. We also noted that the district court accepted the truthfulness of affidavits provided by the defendants' attorneys regarding the settlement agreement entered into by the parties. Id. at 1113.
5. It appears that the supplemental fee award granted in Weisenberger would likely exceed the three percent cap established in Coulter. The cases were decided without trial, see Milburn v. Huecker, 500 F.2d 1279 (6th Cir.1974), and the district court awarded $2,500.00 and $2,000.00 to the respective plaintiffs for attorneys' fees in the main cases. Weisenberger, 593 F.2d at 51. This court awarded the plaintiffs $5,096.00 for defending their fee award on appeal. Id. at 54.
6. The plaintiffs do not challenge the finding that the request for fees for the time spent briefing and arguing the first two motions for fees and costs was a supplemental fees request.
JULIA SMITH GIBBONS, Circuit Judge.
GIBBONS, J., delivered the opinion of the court in which MOORE and ALARCÓN, J.J., joined. MOORE, J. (pg.21), also delivered a separate concurring opinion. |
TOWN OF HILLSBOROUGH, CALIFORNIA ADOPTED BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2007- 2008 With Preliminary Budgets For Fiscal Years 2008- 2009 & 2009- 2010 WHAT’S INSIDE PREFACE Budget Process Overview i Includes a concise narrative description of the budget process from initial planning to preparation, adoption and implementation. Budget Calendar iii A detailed budget calendar - Fiscal Year 2007/ 08 budget Section A INTRODUCTION Budget in Brief Linking City Goals to Budget 23 Shows a crosswalk or link of goals to the current budget Section C BUDGET SUMMARIES Fund Structure and Basis of Budgeting 25 Shows budgetary fund structure including description of each fund and discusses “ basis of accounting” used. Operations and Accounting Structure Table 27 Shows the relationship between functional units, major funds, and non-major funds in the aggregate. Budget Graphics and Summaries Includes charts and tables summarizing revenues, expenditures and changes in fund balance and the overall budget document; also includes summary of regular positions.. ALL FUNDS Combined Revenues, Expenditures and Changes in Fund Balance Fiscal Year 2004/ 05 28 Fiscal Year 2005/ 06 29 Fiscal Year 2006/ 07 30 Fiscal Year 2007/ 08 31 Fiscal Year 2008/ 09 32 Fiscal Year 2009/ 10 33 Combined Funding Sources 34 Combined Expenditures by Type and Function 35 Combined Expenditures by Type 36 Combined Operating Expenditures By Function 37 By Object 38 Combined Capital Expenditures by Function 39 Combined Debt Service Expenditures by Function 40 Authorized Regular Positions by Function 41 Summary of Changes in Fund Balance Fiscal Years 2007/ 08, 2006/ 07 & 2005/ 06 42 GENERAL FUND Summary of Revenues, Expenditures and Changes in Fund Balance 43 Operating Expenditures By Function 44 By Object 45 Extended Financial Forecast 2005- 2015 46 Section D OPERATING PROGRAMS Operating Expenditure Summaries Includes summary of departmental expenditures, mission, description, goals, objectives and productivity measures. Operating Expenditures by Function and by Department 47 Operating Expenditures by Object: All Funds 48 Operating Expenditures by Object: General Fund 49 Public Safety Police 50 Fire 54 Public Utilities Water 58 Wastewater 62 Streets Streets 65 Leisure and Social Activities General Government 68 WHAT’S INSIDE Community Development Planning 69 Building 73 General Government Legislative and Policy City Council 76 General Administration City Manager’s 78 Public Works Administration 81 Legal Services City Attorney 84 Support Services Finance 85 General Services 88 Section E CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN ( CIP) Includes information of major capital projects and prior year’s highlights. Summary of CIP Expenditures by Function 89 CIP Expenditures Project Detail by Function and Department 90 Individual Project Descriptions 93 Vehicle Replacement Schedule 113 Miscellaneous Replacement Schedule 114 Section F DEBT SERVICE REQUIREMENTS Includes summary information about outstanding debt by function. Debt Summary 115 Summary of Annual Payments by Function and Funding Source 117 Computation of Legal Debt Margin 118 Section G CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE Includes combining and individual fund balance statements reflecting revenues, expenditures and changes in fund balance.. Combining Fund Balance Statements All Funds Combined 119 All Governmental Funds 120 All Enterprise Funds 121 All Non- Major Governmental Funds 122 All Special Revenue Funds 123 Individual Fund Balance Statements General Fund 124 Special Revenue Funds Public Safety Special Tax Fund 125 Gas Tax Fund 126 Measure “ A” Tax Fund 127 Police Grants Fund 128 Capital Project Funds 129 Internal Service – Replacement Fund 130 Enterprise Funds Water Fund 131 Sewer Fund 132 Section H FINANCIAL AND STATISTICAL TABLES Revenue Summaries Includes descriptions of major revenues and revenue assumptions used in the development of the budget. Summary of Key Revenue Assumptions 133 Revenues by Major Category and Source 143 Interfund Transactions A summary of inter- departmental and inter- fund transfers. Operating Transfers 146 Staffing Summary 147 A listing of regular positions by function and by department Other Statistical and Financial Summaries: 2007/ 08 Appropriations Limit Calculation 149 A statement of the City’s compliance to the State’s appropriations limitation law. Appropriations Limit – Extended Outlook 150 Revenue and Expenditure Trends ( All Governmental Funds): Last Five Completed Fiscal Years 151 Includes summaries showing revenue and expenditure trends for the last five years for governmental funds Comparison to Other Cities A comparison of the Town’s financial transactions to its neighbors and similar- size California Cities 152 Community Profile and Statistic 153 Includes an overview of Hillsborough and demographic statistics WHAT’S INSIDE Section I BUDGET REFERENCE MATERIALS Summary of Major Policy Documents 159 Includes a list of policy documents that guide the preparation and execution of the City’s Financial Plan and its implementation Budget Resolution 161 Includes the City Council resolution adopting the budget Section J APPENDICES A – Schedule of Fees and Charges A master list of the City’s fees and charges for the budget year B – Cost Allocation Plan Cost allocation plan used to determine total costs of providing specific city services and the bases of allocation used to distribute program costs. C – Line Items Departmental Budget Detailed departmental budget to be utilized by the individual departments for their operations throughout the budget year. BUDGET GLOSSARY A listing of terms and abbreviations used throughout this Document. a series of budget meetings to discuss current year’s goals that guide the departments in their budget preparation. The status of prior goals is discussed and departments present their individual goals. Thereafter, priorities and work programs are set. Every other year, in- depth workshops are held to further review the City’s extended fiscal outlook and discuss Council’s values, goals and short- term objectives. PREFACE BUDGET PROCESS OVERVIEW ii held with both the Financial Advisory Committee and the City Council leading to a public hearing and Council adoption of the budget by June 30.. This budget year’s budget calendar is presented on the next page. PREFACE DETAIL BUDGET CALENDAR – FISCAL YEAR 2007- 2008 iii Date Tasks Description December 2006 Forms to update Fees and Charges distributed to departments January 2007 Departments discuss staffing changes ( if any) with City Manager and submit staffing changes to Finance. If requesting for a new position or program, please complete a “ Request for New Position or Program Change”. Finance updates salary projections. Finance updates revenue projections. February 20,2007 Finance distributes departmental budget worksheets to departments. Finance distributes other budget forms to departments: A. Request for Capital Equipment B. Capital Improvement Request C. Budget Narrative Template ( or previous budget’s version) D. Current Organizational Chart E. Performance or Workload Measures Feb – March 2007 Informal budget meetings among Finance, City Manager and Departments On or before March 8, 2007 Departments submit the following budget documents to Finance: A. Completed departmental budget worksheets B. Request for Capital Equipment C. Capital Improvement Request D. Proposed changes to Fees and Charges E. Budget Narrative F. Updated performance or workload measures March 15,2007 Finance returns budget documents to departments for review. NONE HELD THIS YEAR MANAGEMENT BUDGET WORKSHOP March 19 – 20, 2007 Finance reviews revenue projections with departments. Management reviews and balances draft budget and approves capital improvement requests. March 21 – 27, 2007 Budget meetings ( Departments, City Manager, Finance) March 21 – 2: 00 PM POLICE March 26 – 9: 00 AM FIRE March 26 – 10: 00 AM ADMINISTRATION March 26 – 1: 30 PM PLANNING March 26 – 2: 30 PM BUILDING March 27 - 1: 30 PM PUBLIC WORKS PREFACE DETAIL BUDGET CALENDAR – FISCAL YEAR 2007- 2008 iv March 27 – April 26, 2007 City Manager prepares budget submittal letter. Finance prepares PROPOSED BUDGET DOCUMENT April 26, 2007 Finance distributes proposed operating and capital budget to Financial Advisory Committee. April 30, 2007 ( continued to May 3 if needed) Finance submits proposed operating and capital budget to Financial Advisory Committee April 30 and May 7, 2007 Public notice for fees and charges [ Two publications with at least 5 days between the dates of the first and last publication] – Government Code § 66018 and § 6062a. April 30, 2007 Finance distributes proposed operating and capital budget to Council May 14, 2007 Council holds public hearing ( if necessary, continues to 2nd meeting) and adopts the following: • Budget including Cost of Allocation Plan [ requires public hearing] • Resolution to adopt sewer charges for Fiscal Year 2007/ 2008 • Fees and charges [ requires public notice and public hearing] • Public safety special tax • Interim Modifications to Business License Tax May 24, 2007 Documentation for the calculation of the Appropriations Limit made available to the public [ at least 15 days prior to the June 11, 2007 meeting] – Government Code § 7910. June 11, 2007 Council holds public hearing and adopts the following: • Appropriations limit [ Consent calendar but should be approved by a roll call vote] Week of June 18 and June 25 2007 Public notice on collection of sewer charges [ once a week for 2 successive weeks with at least 5 days between publications] – Government Code § 6062a. June 30, 2007 Adopted Operating and Capital Budget and Fees and Charges distributed to departments July 1, 2007 Adopted fees and charges take effect July 9, 2007 Council holds public hearing and adopts the following: • Collection of sewer charges on the county tax roll [ requires 2- week public notice] – Government Code § 5473.1 and § 6066. • Collection of storm drainage charge and the public safety special tax on the county roll August – September Production and Distribution of the Adopted Budget Document Section A INTRODUCTION INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 1 OVERVIEW Although there were some improvements to the local economy, governmental agencies in the area, continue to face fiscal challenges. It is with this environment that the Town of Hillsborough (“ The Town”) continues to take a proactive approach to deliver cost effective public services. The Town is continuing the policy that in budgeting for a particular year, it will look and plan ahead by presenting preliminary budgets for the next two years. With this budget cycle, concerned about further fiscal challenges on the horizon, an extended financial forecast through FY 2014- 2015 for the General Fund is also presented ( see page 46 of the budget document for forecast details). Mindful that personnel costs represent the single highest cost for service operations like the Town’s, initial requests from the departments for 7 additional positions to enhance and increase service level in various areas for the next 4 years, were not accommodated. Instead, the Town approved to add only one new maintenance worker in the Water Department to meet government mandates, and looked for other ways to increase service levels. Staff has substantially completed the reformat of the budget document from a “ Line- item” budget to a “ Program” budget format. Each of the departments will have their budgets organized into the various services and programs each undertake. It is anticipated that the new presentation will provide much better information concerning budget allocation priorities and service changes. BUDGET HISTORY The Town’s 2007/ 08 ( fiscal year runs from July 1 to June 30) budget totals $ 36.6 million, a 7% decrease over 2006/ 2007 mainly from a $ 3.5 million variation in major construction projects. Operating expenditures register a 4% increase over that of the current fiscal year. The Town’s budget history over the past four years is shown in the following graph and table: Operating Capital Debt Service Operating Capital Debt Service Operating Capital Debt Service Operating Capital Debt Service $ 0 $ 5 $ 10 $ 15 $ 20 $ 25 $ 30 $ 35 $ 40 Millions 04/ 05 05/ 06 06/ 07 07/ 08 k 04/ 05 05/ 06 06/ 07 07/ 08 Operating $ 22,475,328 $ 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 Capital 5,641,344 7,965,195 9,507,032 6,022,076 Debt 1,917,178 2,064,711 2,361,714 2,254,748 TOTAL $ 30,033,850 $ 34,787,757 $ 39,143,541 $ 36,581,470 In terms of overall approach to the budget, the following assumptions, considerations, and priorities guided the Town’s deliberations, recommendations and the final approvals: Continue to provide a safe and healthy community for the residents ensuring that Police and Fire have the resources they need ( personnel and equipment) to deliver quality services to its citizens. Continue to improve its infrastructure including streets, water and sewer. This year’s budget will focus on increasing level of service for streets improvement to improve its current rating ( currently identified as fair from the last assessment), in addition to the on- going program to rehabilitate the water and sewer infrastructure. The latter is approaching the end of the part of the program funded through a bond issue. Subsequently, the Town will work towards funding the program through service rate charges. Continue to improve delivery of services citywide, enhancing efficiency through the use of modern technology and processes. Continue to maintain competitive compensation for its employees. Maintain long- term fiscal health. Continue to work from a balanced budget for governmental operations. The Town also implemented INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 2 recommendations from a comprehensive study of the water and sewer operations including alignment of service charges that will prepare the Town to pay for its share of the capital improvements planned for its water source ( San Francisco Hetch Hetchy system) and to continue the enterprise capital program out of service charges. Economic assumptions for revenues assumed moderately aggressive revenue growth: FY 2007/ 08 Economic Growth Property tax 7% Construction permits & business license 3% Motor vehicle license fees 2% Franchise fees 2% Assumptions used in non- discretionary expenditures changes were as follows: FY 2007/ 08 Expenditures Assumptions Salaries ( contractual compliance) 4% CALPERS retirement rates: Police Fire Miscellaneous 37.472% 28.427% 25.459% Health insurance 15% Workers Compensation 5% CITY- WIDE REVENUE & EXPENDITURE OVERVIEW In total, the Town’s budget decreased by 7% over 06/ 07 mainly from the variation in capital projects. Governmental/ Internal Service Funds Enterprise Funds Total Operating $ 18,226,838 $ 10,077,808 $ 28,304,646 Capital 1,122,676 4,899,400 6,022,076 Debt Service 2,254,748 2,254,748 TOTAL $ 19,349,514 $ 17,231,956 $ 36,581,470 Funding for above comes mainly from taxes for governmental operations and from service charges for the enterprise ( water and sewer) operations. The following chart reflects the citywide funding sources for the budget year. The revenues for the Internal Service Funds have been excluded from the totals since these funds were transferred from the other departments. The $ 1.4 million excess of funding sources over expenditures belongs to the water and sewer operations as discussed earlier.% ` Though total expenditures decreased by 7% over FY 2006/ 2007, operations increased by 4% resulting mainly from contractual obligations with labor groups. Approximately 47% of the Town’s total budget is spent on public safety. That is followed by 36% for public utilities. The following graph breaks down the $ 28.3 million operations cost by function.% The following graph breaks down the same information by object code showing personnel costs as the largest component of the $ 28.3 million operational costs. INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 3 2007- 2008 Operating Expenditures by Object - $ 28.3 Million Personnel Services $ 18,801,987 66% Materials & Services $ 3,664,282 13% Transfers to Internal Service $ 221,997 Contract 1% Services $ 5,616,380 20% KEY BUDGET CHANGES Staffing Changes The Police Lieutenant position left unfilled since FY 2003- 2004 to help balance the prior years’ budget is fully funded in this budget year. To improve workflow and plan- checking processes and enhance customer service for the permitting process – a vital function in the Town’s operations, a new Permit Technician is allocated in the Building Department. Funds for this new position will partly come from cost savings from part- time help and contractual services both heavily utilized by the department in the previous years. To improve effectiveness, the City Planner position ( vacated with retirement) is reclassified to a Building and Planning Director who will oversee both Planning and Building operations. To enhance organizational effectiveness in the combined fire services between Burlingame and Hillsborough, the Administration Division Chief position is eliminated; the Administrative Secretary is reclassified to Administrative Support Officer; and one senior clerk is moved from ½ to ¾ FTE position. To increase service levels in streets improvement function, the Town is increasing the level of work from the normal $ 400,000 annual commitment to $ 700,000. The Town will continue to utilize third- party vendors to perform this job; funds for the additional level will come from the vehicle impact fee adopted by Council last year, and available federal and state grants. One additional maintenance worker is authorized for the Water Department to help address on- going system maintenance needs and comply with state mandates on water quality. Special Programs The adopted budget included a $ 25,000 one- time contribution to the San Mateo library for additional programs including extended library hours. $ 10,000 was budgeted for consultant costs to perform an actuarial study needed to comply with a new governmental accounting standard ( GASB 45) for accounting and reporting other post employment benefits ( OPEB). Funds were appropriated ($ 99,600) to continue and expand the Disaster Preparedness Program ensuring appropriate training for personnel, and to combine plans with the City of Burlingame for cost efficiency and effectiveness. $ 2,000 one- time contribution to the Human Investment Project ( HIP) Housing was also approved. Capital Expenditures Funds to replace dispatch equipment were approved for $ 40,676. $ 85,500 was allocated for various improvements in the Police Department. To continue the long- term strategic plan for improved processes by using modern technology, $ 60,000 was earmarked to purchase and implement an Electronic Document Management System ( EDMS) including automating the agenda preparation process. $ 50,000 was appropriated to update the Town’s telephone system. A breaker hammer ($ 17,900) in FY 2007/ 2008 was authorized and an asphalt zipper ($ 80,000) is to be considered in FY 2008/ 2009. Scanners for the Building Department for its plans were approved for $ 19,600. Replacements for Rescue 33 ($ 351,800) and breathing apparatus ($ 185,000) for the Fire Department were to be considered in Fiscal Year 2008/ 2009. INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 4 The Housing Element update ($ 80,000) was also to be considered for Fiscal Year 2008/ 2009. Funds for an excavator with trailer ($ 60,900) and a Water Quality Control Van ($ 60,000) in the Water Department were approved. A utility vehicle ($ 13,500) for the Sewer Department was also approved. Four vehicles are expected to be replaced in the Internal Service Fund for a total amount of $ 183,600; all other replacements including furniture and computers total $ 16,600. The Water and Sewer Capital Improvement Plan funded from the $ 12 million debt issued on April 2006 continues as follows: Project Name Amount Cherry Creek Pump Station $ 1,000,000 Vista Tank Site Improvement 1,500,000 Fire Main Projects 400,000 Advanced Meter Reading Project 500,000 Sewer Lining Phase 4 700,000 Elimination of Hayne Pump Station 400,000 Storm Drain Replacement 265,000 TOTAL $ 4,765,000 GENERAL FUND The General Fund is the fund that receives undesignated revenues which can be budgeted for any appropriate purpose. This fund finances the majority of the traditional services associated with city government. The following chart presents the approved General Fund budget for FY 2007/ 2008, the preliminary budget for the next two years as well as the compliance to the Town’s fiscal policy of maintaining the General Fund recommended level of reserves at 30% of operating expenditures. Adopted 2007/ 08 Preliminary 2008/ 09 Preliminary 2009/ 10 Revenues $ 18,173,638 $ 19,115,180 $ 19,973,686 Expenditures $ 18,173,638 $ 19,115,180 $ 19,973,686 % of change 2.5% 5.2% 4.5% Fund Balance $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 Recommended Minimum Level Of Reserves $ 5,452,091 $ 5,734,554 $ 5,992,106 Revenues Total General Fund revenues are projected to increase by 2.5% in FY2007- 2008 as reflected in the following table: Adopted 2007/ 08 Revised 2006/ 2007 Change Property taxes $ 9,487,600 $ 8,876,100 $ 611,500 Excess ERAF 755,000 990,500 ( 235,500) Special public safety tax 2,228,560 2,228,560 - 0 - Business license 628,200 615,900 12,300 Construction permits 790,200 774,650 15,550 Vehicle license fee 737,700 723,200 14,500 Franchise fees 519,975 521,242 ( 1,267) Service charges 1,095,700 1,081,625 14,075 All others 1,930,703 1,919,570 11,133 TOTAL $ 18,173,638 $ 17,731,347 $ 442,291 % of change over prior year 2.5% The Town’s major revenues are derived from property taxes which have been stable through the years with property valuation going up an annual average of 7% in the most recent years. The special public safety tax, a non- ad valorem tax on parcels of real property approved by the voters on June 1998, has reached the maximum allowed by law and will be flat. The Town continues to receive excess Educational Revenue Augmentation Fund ( ERAF) which represents that portion of the ERAF tax shift available after distribution to school districts to meet their revenue limit. Service charges are reviewed annually and adjusted as needed. These fees follow the Town’s objective to diversify its revenue base and work towards the user fee cost recovery goals discussed in the Town’s fiscal policies. The following graph depicts the Town’s General Fund revenue sources: INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 5 WHERE THE MONEY COMES FUND - GENERAL FUND Property taxes 53% Motor vehicle license fee 4% Franchise fees 3% Service charges 6% Construction permits 4% Special public safety tax 12% Business license tax 3% Excess ERAF 4% All others 11% Expenditures Similarly, the General Fund FY 2007/ 2008 appropriations are projected to increase by 2.5% as summarized below: Adopted 2007/ 08 Revised 2006/ 07 Change Public safety $ 13,307,793 $ 12,851,918 $ 455,875 Streets 1,479,801 1,483,127 ( 3,326) Leisure & Social Services 847,900 823,200 24,700 Community Development 1,501,451 1,613,691 ( 112,240) General Government 1,036,693 959,411 77,282 TOTAL $ 18,173,638 $ 17,731,347 $ 442,291 % of change over prior year 2.5% As further shown in the graph below, public safety ( police and fire) is the Town’s largest General Fund cost. WHERE THE MONEY GOES - GENERAL FUND Public Safety 73% General Government 6% Streets 8% Leisure & Social Activities 5% Community Development 8% ASSET REPLACEMENT FUND The following table illustrates compliance to the reserve requirement for the Asset Replacement Fund pursuant to the Town’s fiscal policy: Adopted 2007/ 08 Preliminary 2008/ 09 Preliminary 2009/ 10 Projected working capital reserved for asset replacement $ 2,366,218 $ 2,052,290 $ 1,816,787 Reserve requirements @ 20% of asset $ 627,148 $ 782,128 $ 864,528 ENTERPRISE FUNDS – WATER AND SEWER OPERATIONS Following the recommendations from the comprehensive water and sewer rates study mentioned earlier, the adopted budget reflected the changes to the water rates structure including increasing the fixed meter charge and changing tier breakpoints and flow charges to maintain a stable revenue stream for the long- term fiscal health of the enterprise. These changes are expected to bring about approximately a 6% increase in revenues each year for the next two years and an 8% increase each year for the following two years. The first rates changes took effect in February 2007 and subsequent annual rates changes are to take effect on January 1 of 2008, 2009 and 2010. Likewise, residential sewer rates are to increase by 3% on July 1 of each of the next 4 years. Rates for non-residential accounts will be computed based on their relationship to an equivalent dwelling unit ( EDU). Summarized below are the operations’ adopted budgets for FY 2007/ 2008, debt service coverage, and compliance to the Town’s reserve requirements. Water Sewer Combined Operations OPERATIONS Revenues $ 7,908,000 $ 6,177,000 $ 14,085,000 Expenses 8,387,010 5,383,009 13,770,019 Change in net assets ( GAAP BASIS) ( 479,010) 793,991 314,981 Beginning net assets 18,869,234 12,721,682 31,590,916 Ending net assets $ 18,390,224 $ 13,515,673 $ 31,905,897 INTRODUCTION BUDGET IN BRIEF 6 Excess ( BUDGETARY BASIS) $ 402,804 $ 1,215,240 $ 1,618,044 DEBT SERVICE Expenses before debt service and excluding depreciation $ 6,644,457 $ 3,567,751 $ 10,212,208 Revenues avail-able for debt service $ 1,263,543 $ 2,609,249 $ 3,872,792 Debt Service $ 666,703 $ 1,107,108 $ 1,773,811 Coverage $ 1.90 $ 2.36 $ 2.18 RESERVES Projected Working Capital $ 11,363,536 $ 10,833,742 $ 22,197,278 Reserve Requirement $ 2,181,039 $ 1,265,352 $ 3,446,391 The Town continues to be assigned the high credit ratings of AA+ by Fitch and AA by Standard & Poor’s for all of its bond issues. EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS As discussed earlier, the Town’s priority to maintain competitive compensation for its employees has enabled it to build a highly effective and efficient workforce with very low turnover. Continuation of this strategic policy will further promote a strong work environment. Pursuant to an agreement with the Fire labor group, the Town will implement a retirement benefit improvement for the Fire Group by enhancing its retirement plan to 3% @ 55 from 2% @ 50. Continuing to look into costs containment, the Town has successfully negotiated with all labor groups except one, to change the more expensive benefit of providing health insurance to retired employees to the more reasonably- cost benefit of Health Savings Account for later hires. As of date, 33% of the city’s workforce is in this new program. The Town continues to maintain excellent labor relations and recently concluded negotiations for a five- year contract with the Public Works/ Clerical Group. This year’s budget reflects the Town’s commitment to offer a range of benefits that include retirement, health and life insurances, income protection insurances, savings plans and other tax deferment programs. MORE FISCAL CHALLENGES DOWN THE ROAD Unfunded Liability for Other Post Employment Benefit ( OPEB) Until recently when it starts to negotiate with the labor groups for a reduced level of post employment benefit for new hires, the Town provides post- retirement health benefits, administered through CalPERS and other compensated absences. There currently, are 80 retirees receiving the benefits. The Town finances the plan on a pay- as- you- go basis. In July 2001, the Town started to put aside minimal amounts from the General Fund towards a reserve to fund this liability. The planned transfers have either been trimmed or deferred altogether to help balance the previous budgets. An informal valuation done on June 30, 2000 estimates the Town’s unfunded actuarial liability for qualified employees, are in excess of $ 10 million. As of the end of fiscal year 2005/ 06, the Town has put aside approximately $ 970,000 towards this purpose. A new accounting standard now requires the Town to identify the liability exposure for this benefit. Funding this liability is a big concern that needs to be addressed as the Town implements the standard. Included in this budget are funds for an actuarial study to determine the Town’s liability. Health Care and Workers Compensation Costs There is no relief in sight for health care costs which have been increasing in double digits. While costs containment were implemented by way of charging higher co- payments to employees, double digits increases are still expected in this budget cycle. Same can be said with workers compensation costs as the Town experiences some lingering industrial disabilities. CONCLUSION The Town staff takes pride in submitting a balanced budget in FY 2007/ 2008. This achievement would not be possible without the collaboration of the Town departments and more importantly, the Financial Advisory Committee and City Council’s leadership. It is with this vision of identifying and confronting future fiscal challenges that the Town can continue to provide the highest level of service to its citizens. Catherine U. ( Kitty) Mullooly Fire Department Commissioner Vice- Mayor Christine M. Krolik Public Works Department Commissioner Council Member John J. Fannon Community Development Department Commissioner Council Member Thomas M. Kasten Police Department Commissioner Council Member D. Paul Regan Administration & Finance Departments Commissioner 9 ORGANIZATIONAL CHART AND PRINCIPAL OFFICIALS FIRE FINANCE MANAGER’S COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT POLICE PUBLIC WORKS Paramedic General Accounting Human Resources PLANNING: Patrol Streets Suppression Financial Services Records Management/ Design Review Investigation Storm Drainage Disaster Planning Prevention Utility Billing Investments/ Cash Elections Risk Management Environmental Assessment Dispatch Alarm Program Water Wastewater Vegetation Management Management Payroll General Plan Zoning Neighborhood Services Traffic Safety Municipal Service Center Information Technology Debt Management BUILDING: Permits Inspection CITIZENS OF HILLSBOROUGH CITY COUNCIL Mayor Catherine Mullooly Vice- Mayor Christine M. Krolik Council Member John J. Fannon Council Member Thomas M. Kasten Council Member D. Paul Regan ADVISORY BODIES Architecture & Design Review Board Communication Advisory Committee Financial Advisory Committee CITY MANAGER Anthony Constantouros CITY ATTORNEY Norm Book FIRE CHIEF Don Dornell FINANCE DIRECTOR Maria Edna J. Masbad ASSISTANT CITY MANAGER Katharine Leroux POLICE CHIEF Matthew O’Connor PUBLIC WORKS DIRECTOR Martha DeBry CITY CLERK Miyuki Yokoyama CITY ENGINEER Cyrus Kianpour DIRECTOR OF PLANNING & BUILDING Elizabeth Cullinan Chief Building Official John Mullins JOINT POWER BOARDS Hillsborough Recreation JPA Board Central County Fire Board INTRODUCTION ADVISORY BODIES 10 ARCHITECTURE & DESIGN REVIEW BOARD John J. Fannon, Commissioner Jennifer Werbe, Chair Walter Heyman George Jewett Mark Heine Charlie Barnett Bruce Herman, Alternate FINANCIAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE D. Paul Regan, Commissioner Jess “ Jay” Benton, Chair Allason Clark Jr. Josh Cooperman John Lockton Jr. Larree M. Renda Alvin Royse CITIZENS COMMUNICATION ADVISORY COMMITTEE Catherine U. Mullooly, Commissioner Diana Witzel, Chair Marie Chuang Candace Lyche Janet MacGregor Beatrice “ BeBe” Trinkner HILLSBOROUGH RECREATION D, Paul Regan, Commissioner Christine Krolik, Commissioner CODE ENFORCEMENT HEARING PANEL Jim Curry Wallace Baldwin INTRODUCTION AWARDS 11 The Government Finance Officers Association of the United States and Canada ( GFOA) presented a Distinguished Budget Presentation Award to the Town of Hillsborough, California for its budget for the fiscal year beginning July 1, 2006. In order to receive this award, a governmental unit must publish a budget document that meets program criteria as a policy document, as an operations guide, as a financial plan and as a communication device. The award is valid for one year only. We believe our current budget continues to conform to program requirements. INTRODUCTION AWARDS 12 The California Society of Municipal Finance Officers presented a Certificate of Award for Excellence in Operating Budgeting to the Town of Hillsborough for the fiscal year 2006- 07 Budget.). LINKING CITY GOALS TO BUDGET 23 CITY GOALS RELATED BUDGET ITEMS LAND USE PLANNING – Housing Element Update ( 08/ 09) ($ 80,000) COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT – Reclassification of City Planner Position ( vacated from retirement) to Director of Planning and Building to better serve the needs of the community. BUILDING – A new Permit Technician position to increase level of customer service of the permitting function and free- up time for building inspections ( additional cost $ 25,000). COMMUNITY SAFETY POLICE – Fully funding authorized Lieutenant position in the Department left unfilled in the prior years due to fiscal constraints to ensure a more effective operations. FIRE – Replace Rescue # 33 to increase effectiveness of the Special Operations response ($ 351,800). FIRE – Replace Self- Contained Breathing Apparatus ($ 185,000). POLICE – Update dispatch programs and equipments ($ 40,676). POLICE/ FIRE – Continue implementation of RoamSecure Community Alert Notification System INFRASTRUCTURE STREETS – Expand streets projects to improve City’s Pavement Management Index with a combination of additional 2 Maintenance Workers, New Equipments ( Asphalt Zipper $ 80,000; Hydraulic Breaker Hammer $ 17,900); and additional contractual services. WATER AND SEWER – Continue major capital improvements to the infrastructure funded from bond proceeds for the next 2 years ($ 7.3 million). CITY- WIDE – Upgrade or replace aging telephone system ($ 50,000). POLICE – Various renovations/ improvements to the Police Building ($ 85,500). WATER AND SEWER – Purchase several equipments to increase effectiveness ( Mini excavator & trailer $ 60,900; Quality Control Van $ 60,000; Gator Utility Vehicle $ 13,500). LONG- TERM FISCAL HEALTH CITY MANAGER/ FINANCE – Balanced budget for FY 07/ 08 and preliminary balanced budgets for the next 2 years. FINANCE- Actuarial study to implement GASB 45 – Reporting and accounting for Other Post Employment Benefits ( OPEB) ($ 10,000). WATER AND SEWER – Implementation of recommendations from the rates study to align water and sewer rates for equity and ensure long- term fiscal health of the water and sewer operations LINKING CITY GOALS TO BUDGET 24 CITY GOALS RELATED BUDGET ITEMS PROGRAMS AND SERVICES WATER AND SEWER – Additional 5 maintenance workers in the next 4 years to comply with state mandates and implement programs previously not done in the prior years due to short staffing. FIRE/ GENERAL GOVERNMENT – Expansion of the Disaster Preparedness Program allowing for more personnel training and ensure on- going preparedness for disaster response ( additional funding of $ 48,600); set up a local emergency response center in the Council Chambers. GENERAL GOVERNMENT – One- time contribution to San Mateo Library for program expansion ($ 25,000). WATER - Purchase Advanced Meter Reading ( AMR) for more efficient meter reading function ($ 500,000). INTER- JURISDICTIONAL OPERATIONS FIRE – Merging of Disaster Preparedness Program operations between Hillsborough and Burlingame COUNCIL/ ADMINISTRATION/ FIRE – Continue to review and implement efficiency measures on the merged fire operations between Hillsborough and Burlingame. FINANCE – Continue implementation of technology plan through contract with South San Francisco ( update of operating systems and replace equipments), COMMUNITY REPRESENTATION COUNCIL/ CITY WIDE – Continue membership/ representation with various organizations EMPLOYEE EXCELLENCE FIRE – Enhanced retirement plan of the Fire Group ( approximately $ 170,000 increase in annual costs). CITY- WIDE – Implement labor contracts contractual obligations PUBLIC WORKS LABOR GROUP – Implement new terms from 5- year labor contract. CITY MANAGER/ FINANCE – Phase 1 of the Records Management System – Agenda Management System ($ 60,000). WATER – Training for/ and recertification of various employees per State Mandate BUILDING – Purchase scanners for efficiency of operations in the permitting function ( 19,600). Section C BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET SUMMARIES FUND STRUCTURE AND BASIS OF BUDGETING 25 26. Public Safety Special Tax – This fund accounts for revenues from a Town of Hillsborough voter- approved special tax which proceeds are designated for public safety operations and capital expenditures. Gas Tax – This fund accounts for receipts and disbursements of funds apportioned under California Streets and Highways Code Sections 2105, 2106, 2107 and 2107.5 for major street construction projects. Measure “ A” – This fund accounts for a San Mateo County half- cent sales tax approved by the voters in June 1988 ( Measure A) for the purpose of improving local transportation including streets and roads. Police Grants – This accounts for activities funded from various police grants and programs. OPERATIONS AND ACCOUNTING STRUCTURE TABLE 27 USE OF FUNDS BY DEPARTMENTS Department General Fund ( Major) Water Fund ( Major) Sewer Fund ( Major) Capital Projects Fund Asset Replacement Fund Public Safety Tax Fund Gas Tax Fund Measure “ A” Fund Police Grants Fund City Council City Manager City Attorney Finance General Government Police Fire Planning Building Public Works Administration Streets Water Sewer BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 28 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS - ACTUAL FISCAL YEAR 2004- 2005 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 9,091,589 $ 2,188,202 $ 11,279,791 Permits 1,002,681 1,002,681 Intergovernmental 825,357 669,534 $ 480,325 1,975,216 114,505 2,849,733 1,854,835 5,641,344 Debt Service 14,349 202,702 568,021 1,132,106 1,917,178 Total Expenditures 14,626,615 953,945 316,728 8,273,051 5,863,511 30,033,850) 570,264 627,034 2,292,988 4,308,914 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 282,270) ( 1,160,341) ( 992,907) ( 2,435,518) Principal payment 179,986 175,888 324,412 680,286 Capital expenditures 114,505 2,849,733 1,854,835 4,819,073 Proceeds from borrowing ( 2,677,225) ( 1,828,389) ( 4,505,614) Total adjustments to GAAP 12,221 ( 811,945) ( 642,049) ( 1,441,773) 29 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS - ACTUAL FISCAL YEAR 2005- 2006 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 9,688,685 $ 2,233,132 $ 11,921,817 Permits 973,812 973,812 Intergovernmental 1,150,206 980,380 $ 88,206 2,218,792 Use of assets 1,127,020 87,812 $ 102,472 $ 449,114 349,156 2,115,574 Service charges 1,149,151 145,428 558,505 6,471,820 5,224,185 13,549,089 All others 166,544 182,306 37,732 386,582 Total Revenues 14,255,418 3,629,058 698,709 6,920,934 5,661,547 31,165,666 EXPENDITURES: Operations 16,079,618 83,999 34,274 5,226,297 3,333,663 24,757,851 Capital 1,426,647 236,282 2,971,223 3,331,043 7,965,195 Debt Service 14,349 202,702 675,951 1,171,709 2,064,711 Total Expenditures 16,093,967 1,510,646 473,258 8,873,471 7,836,415 34,787,757 OTHER FINANCING SOURCES ( USES): Operating Transfers In 2,628,560 666,995 3,295,555 Operating Transfers Out ( 101,255) ( 3,043,300) ( 151,000) ( 3,295,555) Proceeds from borrowing 2,910,607 3,238,621 6,149,228 Total Financing Sources ( Uses) 2,527,305 ( 2,376,305) 2,759,607 3,238,621 6,149,228 REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) 688,756 ( 257,893) 225,451 807,070 1,063,753 2,527,137 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 272,847) ( 1,312,035) ( 1,184,348) ( 2,769,230) Principal payment 188,066 178,702 321,298 688,066 Capital expenditures 236,282 3,029,978 3,359,965 6,626,225 Proceeds from borrowing ( 2,910,607) ( 3,238,621) ( 6,149,228) Total adjustments to GAAP 151,501 ( 1,013,962) ( 741,706) ( 1,604,167) CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE 688,756 ( 257,893) 376,952 ( 206,892) 322,047 922,970 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 9,114,131 1,056,300 3,946,168 19,364,102 11,945,429 45,426,130 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,802,887 $ 798,407 $ 4,323,120 $ 19,157,210 $ 12,267,476 $ 46,349,100 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 30 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS- REVISED BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2006- 2007 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 10,937,710 $ 2,228,560 $ 13,166,270 Permits 909,650 909,650 Intergovernmental 979,630 834,771 1,814,401 Use of assets 1,171,242 84,100 $ 73,500 $ 250,000 $ 150,000 1,728,842 Service charges 1,081,625 394,000 607,600 7,246,000 5,783,500 15,112,725 All others 103,930 417,694 10,000 531,624 Total Revenues 15,183,787 3,959,125 691,100 7,496,000 5,933,500 33,263,512 EXPENDITURES: Operations 17,318,906 170,997 25,000 6,094,705 3,665,187 27,274,795 Capital 1,318,532 408,910 4,604,590 3,175,000 9,507,032 Debt Service 7,174 202,702 842,774 1,309,064 2,361,714 Total Expenditures 17,326,080 1,489,529 636,612 9,091,059 8,149,251 39,143,541 OTHER FINANCING SOURCES ( USES): Operating Transfers In 2,547,560 876,267 3,423,827 Operating Transfers Out ( 405,267) ( 2,962,560) ( 32,000) ( 24,000) ( 3,423,827) Proceeds from borrowing 4,551,010 3,160,000 7,711,010 Total Financing Sources ( Uses) 2,142,293 ( 2,086,293) 4,519,010 3,136,000 7,711,010 REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) 383,303 54,488 472,941 920,249 1,830,981 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 350,000) ( 1,170,000) ( 1,000,000) ( 2,520,000) Principal payment 196,147 178,702 321,298 696,147 Capital expenditures 408,910 4,781,391 3,372,659 8,562,960 Proceeds from borrowing ( 4,551,010) ( 3,160,000) ( 7,711,010) Total adjustments to GAAP 255,057 ( 760,917) ( 466,043) ( 971,903) CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE 383,303 309,545 ( 287,976) 454,206 859.078 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 9,802,887 798,407 4,323,120 19,157,210 12,267,476 46,349,100 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,802,887 $ 1,181,710 $ 4,632,665 $ 18,869,234 $ 12,721,682 $ 47,208,178 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 31 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS- ADOPTED BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2007- 2008 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 11,342,600 $ 2,228,560 $ 13,571,160 Permits 925,200 925,200 Intergovernmental 957,500 710,000 1,667,500 Use of assets 1,176,975 99,810 $ 73,500 $ 318,000 $ 197,000 1,865,285 Service charges 1,095,700 419,000 221,997 7,590,000 5,980,000 15,306,697 All others 128,103 10,000 138,103 Total Revenues 15,626,078 3,457,370 305,497 7,908,000 6,177,000 33,473,945 EXPENDITURES: Operations 18,086,138 115,700 25,000 6,523,557 3,554,251 28,304,646 Capital 37,500 884,976 200,200 3,520,900 1,378,500 6,022,076 Debt Service 860,739 1,394,009 2,254,748 Total Expenditures 18,123,638 1,000,676 225,200 10,905,196 6,326,760 36,581,470 OTHER FINANCING SOURCES ( USES): Operating Transfers In 2,547,560 465,000 3,012,560 Operating Transfers Out ( 50,000) ( 2,962,560) ( 3,012,560) Proceeds from borrowing 3,400,000 1,365,000 4,765,000 Total Financing Sources ( Uses) 2,497,560 ( 2,497,560) 3,400,000 1,365,000 4,765,000 REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) ( 40,866) 80,297 402,804 1,215,240 1,657,475 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 350,000) ( 1,286,000) ( 1,098,000) ( 2,734,000) Principal payment 210,150 389,850 600,000 Capital expenditures 200,200 3,594,036 1,651,901 5,446,137 Proceeds from borrowing ( 3,400,000) ( 1,365,000) ( 4,765,000) Total adjustments to GAAP ( 149,800) ( 881,814) ( 421,249) ( 1,452,863) CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE ( 40,866) ( 69,503) ( 479,010) 793,991 204,612 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 9,802,887 1,181,710 4,632,665 18,869,234 12,721,682 47,208,178 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,802,887 $ 1,140,844 $ 4,563,162 $ 18,390,224 $ 13,515,673 $ 47,412,790 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 32 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS- PRELIMINARY BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2008- 2009 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 12,035,900 $ 2,228,560 $ 14,264,460 Permits 948,700 948,700 Intergovernmental 962,200 715,000 1,677,200 Use of assets 1,139,720 99,810 $ 77,175 $ 350,000 $ 242,000 1,908,705 Service charges 1,114,550 434,000 230,997 8,100,000 6,158,000 16,037,547 All others 311,550 10,000 321,550 Total Revenues 16,512,620 3,477,370 318,172 8,450,000 6,400,000 35,158,162 EXPENDITURES: Operations 18,923,980 115,700 25,000 6,761,565 3,636,654 29,462,899 Capital 80,000 831,200 774,900 900,000 1,601,000 4,187,100 Debt Service 80,000 984,847 1,504,014 2,568,861 Total Expenditures 19,003,980 946,900 879,900 8,646,412 6,741,668 36,218,860 OTHER FINANCING SOURCES ( USES): Operating Transfers In 2,602,560 526,200 3,128,760 Operating Transfers Out ( 111,200) ( 3,017,560) ( 3,128,760) Proceeds from borrowing 351,800 900,000 1,601,000 2,852,800 Total Financing Sources ( Uses) 2,491,360 ( 2,491,360) 351,800 900,000 1,601,000 2,852,800 REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) 39,110 ( 209,928) 703,588 1,259,332 1,792,102 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 350,000) ( 1,413,600) ( 1,205,800) ( 2,969,400) Principal payment 66,000 343,270 516,730 926,000 Capital expenditures 774,900 900,000 1,601,000 3,275,900 Proceeds from borrowing ( 351,800) ( 900,000) ( 1,601,000) ( 2,852,800) Total adjustments to GAAP 139,100 ( 1,070,330) ( 689,070) ( 1,620,300) CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE 39,110 ( 70,828) ( 366,742) 570,262 171,802 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 9,802,887 1,140,844 4,563,162 18,390,224 13,515,673 47,412,790 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,802,887 $ 1,179,954 $ 4,492,334 $ 18,023,482 $ 14,085,935 $ 47,584,592 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 33 COMBINED REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE-ALL FUNDS- PRELIMINARY BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2009- 2010 Major Enterprise Funds General Fund Non- Major Govern-mental Funds Non- Major Internal Service Fund Water Fund Sewer Fund Total REVENUES: Taxes $ 12,780,000 $ 2,228,560 $ 15,008,560 Permits 973,000 973,000 Intergovernmental 1,029,800 735,000 1,764,800 Use of assets 1,162,116 99,810 $ 74,500 $ 387,000 $ 287,000 2,010,426 Service charges 1,134,003 444,000 304,997 8,750,000 6,341,000 16,974,000 All others 372,207 10,000 382,207 Total Revenues 17,451,126 3,507,370 389,497 9,137,000 6,628,000 37,112,993 EXPENDITURES: Operations 19,973,686 115,700 25,000 7,020,692 3,797,615 30,932,693 Capital 700,000 412,000 1,500,000 700,000 3,312,000 Debt Service 80,000 975,910 1,487,205 2,543,115 Total Expenditures 19,973,686 815,700 517,000 9,496,602 5,984,820 36,787,808 OTHER FINANCING SOURCES ( USES): Operating Transfers In 2,522,560 440,000 2,962,560 Operating Transfers Out ( 2,962,560) ( 2,962,560) Proceeds from borrowing Total Financing Sources ( Uses) 2,522,560 ( 2,522,560) REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) 169,110 ( 127,503) ( 359,602) 643,180 325,185 ADJUSTMENTS TO GAAP: Depreciation and amortization ( 360,000) ( 1,553,960) ( 1,324,380) ( 3,238,340) Principal payment 68,000 348,390 521,610 938,000 Capital expenditures 412,000 1,500,000 700,000 2,612,000 Proceeds from borrowing Total adjustments to GAAP 120,000 294,430 ( 102,770) 311,660 CHANGE IN FUND BALANCE 169,110 ( 7,503) ( 65,172) 540,410 636,845 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 9,802,887 1,179,954 4,492,334 18,023,482 14,085,935 47,584,592 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,802,887 $ 1,349,064 $ 4,484,831 $ 17,958,310 $ 14,626,345 $ 48,221,437 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 34% ` COMBINED FUNDING SOURCES – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 Taxes $ 11,279,791 $ 11,921,817 $ 13,166,270 $ 13,571,160 $ 14,264,460 $ 15,008,560 Permits 1,002,681 973,812 909,650 925,200 948,700 973,000 Intergovernmental 1,975,216 2,218,792 1,814,401 1,667,500 1,677,200 1,764,800 Use of Assets 1,548,519 2,115,574 1,728,842 1,865,285 1,908,705 2,010,426 Service Charges: Governmental 1,260,745 1,294,579 1,475,625 1,514,700 1,548,550 1,578,003 Enterprise 11,679,011 11,696,005 13,029,500 13,570,000 14,258,000 15,091,000 Proceeds from borrowing 4,505,614 6,149,228 7,711,010 4,765,000 2,852,800 All others 319,697 386,582 531,624 138,103 321,550 382,207 TOTAL $ 33,571,274 $ 36,756,389 $ 40,366,922 $ 38,016,948 $ 37,779,965 $ 36,807,996 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 35 TOTAL EXPENDITURES BY TYPE AND FUNCTION – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 OPERATING PROGRAM EXPENDITURES Operating Program Expenditures 22,475,328 24,757,851 27,274,795 28,304,646 29,462,899 30,932,693 CAPITAL EXPENDITURES Capital Expenditures 5,641,344 7,965,195 9,507,032 6,022,076 4,187,100 3,312,000 DEBT SERVICE EXPENDITURES Public Safety 202,702 202,702 202,702 80,000 80,000 Public Utilities 1,700,127 1,847,660 2,151,838 2,254,748 2,488,861 2,463,115 Streets Leisure & Social Activities Community Development General Government 14,349 14,349 7,174 Total Debt Service Expenditures 1,917,178 2,064,711 2,361,714 2,254,748 2,568,861 2,543,115 TOTAL EXPENDITURES Public Safety 10,952,364 12,293,058 13,521,330 13,599,469 14,933,274 15,126,930 Public Utilities 14,227,491 16,754,021 19,836,320 17,311,956 15,539,405 15,940,121 Streets 2,008,816 2,385,774 2,080,216 2,278,061 2,452,380 2,489,083 Leisure & Social Activities 737,116 1,237,953 1,276,073 847,900 860,060 878,315 Community Development 1,343,009 1,293,995 1,617,691 1,503,451 1,610,609 1,609,922 General Government 765,054 822,956 1,081,911 1,123,693 1,130,696 1,163,148 Total Expenditures $ 30,033,850 $ 34,787,757 $ 39,143,541 36,581,470 36,218,860 36,787,808 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 36 2007- 2008 Expenditures by Type - $ 36.6 Million Operating $ 28,304,646 78% Capital $ 6,022,076 16% Debt service $ 2,254,748 6% COMBINED EXPENDITURES BY TYPE – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 Operating $ 22,475,328 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 $ 29,462,899 $ 30,932,693 Capital 5,641,344 7,965,195 9,507,032 6,022,076 4,187,100 3,312,000 Debt Service 1,917,178 2,064,711 2,361,714 2,254,748 2,568,861 2,543,115 TOTAL $ 30,033,850 $ 34,787,757 $ 39,143,541 $ 36,581,470 $ 36,218,860 $ 36,787,808 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 37% COMBINED OPERATING EXPENDITURES BY FUNCTION – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 $ 22,475,328 $ 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 $ 29,462,899 $ 30,932,693 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 38 2007- 2008 Operating Expenditures by Object - $ 28.3 Million Personnel Services $ 18,801,987 66% Materials & Services $ 3,664,282 13% Transfers to Internal Service $ 221,997 1% Contract Services $ 5,616,380 20% COMBINED OPERATING EXPENDITURES BY OBJECT – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 $ 22,475,328 $ 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 $ 29,462,899 $ 30,932,693 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 39 2007- 2008 Total Capital Expenditures by Function - $ 6 Million Streets $ 717,900 12% Public Safety $ 191,176 3% General Government $ 112,000 2% Community Development $ 21,600 0% Public Utilities $ 4,979,400 83% COMBINED CAPITAL EXPENDITURES BY FUNCTION – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 $ 5,641,344 $ 7,965,195 $ 9,507,032 $ 6,022,076 $ 4,187,100 $ 3,312,000 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 40 COMBINED DEBT SERVICE EXPENDITURES BY FUNCTION – ALL FUNDS 2007- 2008 Total Debt Service by Function - $ 2.3 Million Public Utilities 2,254,748 100% Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 Public Safety $ 202,702 $ 202,702 $ 202,702 $ 80,000 $ 80,000 Public Utilities 1,700,127 1,847,660 2,151,838 $ 2,254,748 2,488,861 2,463,115 General Government 14,349 14,349 7,174 TOTAL $ 1,917,178 $ 2,064,711 $ 2,361,714 $ 2,254,748 $ 2,568,861 $ 2,543,115 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 41 2007- 2008 Funded Positions by Function - 114.75 FTE Public Utilities 19.00 17% Streets 7.00 6% Community Development 8.00 7% General Government 14.00 12% Public Safety 66.75 58% AUTHORIZED REGULAR POSITIONS BY FUNCTION – ALL FUNDS Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 Public Safety 63.75 64.75 65.75 66.75 66.75 66.75 Public Utilities 18.00 18.00 18.00 19.00 19.00 19.00 Streets 7.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 Community Development 7.00 7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 General Government 12.00 14.00 14.00 14.00 14.00 14.00 TOTAL FUNDED POSITIONS BY FUNCTION 107.75 110.75 111.75 114.75 114.75 114.75 Public Safety 3.00 2.00 1.00 General Government 1.00 TOTAL UNFUNDED POSITIONS BY FUNCTION 4.00 2.00 1.00 TOTAL AUTHORIZED POSITIONS 111.75 112.75 112.75 115.75 118.75 119.75 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 42 SUMMARY OF CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE BUDGETARY BASIS GAAP BASIS Other Financing Sources Adjustment Change in Fund Fund Balance Revenues Expenditures ( Uses) To GAAP Balance Beginning Ending FISCAL YEAR 2007/ 08 ADOPTED BUDGET GOVERNMENTAL: General Fund $ 15,626,078 $ 18,123,638 $ 2,497,560 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 Special Revenue Funds: Public Safety Special Tax Fund 2,322,560 2,322,560 Gas Tax Fund 235,000 10,000 ( 225,000) Measure “ A” Fund 376,000 5,200 ( 400,000) ( 29,200) 48,644 19,444 Police Grants Fund 100,500 85,500 ( 15,000) 134,546 134,546 Capital Projects Fund 423,310 899,976 465,000 ( 11,666) 998,520 986,854 PROPRIETARY: Internal Service Fund 305,497 225,200 ( 149,800) ( 69,503) 4,632,665 4,563,162 Enterprise Funds: Water Fund 7,908,00 10,905,196 3,400,000 ( 881,814) ( 479,010) 18,869,24 18,390,224 Sewer Fund 6,177,00 6,326,760 1,365,000 ( 421,249) 793,991 12,721,682 13,515,673 GRAND TOTAL $ 33,473,945 $ 38,904,030 $ 7,087,560 ($ 1,452,863) $ 204,612 $ 47,208,178 $ 47,412,790 FISCAL YEAR 2006/ 07 – REVISED BUDGET GOVERNMENTAL: General Fund $ 15,183,787 $ 17,326,080 $ 2,142,293 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 Special Revenue Funds: Public Safety Special Tax Fund 2,322,560 2,322,560 Gas Tax Fund 230,000 9,297 ( 225,000) ( 4,297) 4,297 Measure “ A” Fund 371,000 5,200 ( 400,000) ( 34,200) 82,844 48,644 Police Grants Fund 100,500 85,500 ( 15,000) 134,546 134,546 Capital Projects Fund 935,065 1,389,532 876,267 421,800 576,720 998,520 PROPRIETARY: Internal Service Fund 691,100 636,612 $ 255,057 309,545 4,323,120 4,632,665 Enterprise Funds: Water Fund 7,496,000 11,542,069 4,519,010 ( 760,917) ( 287,976) 19,157,210 18,869,234 Sewer Fund 5,933,500 8,149,251 3,136,000 ( 466,043) 454,206 12,267,476 12,721,682 GRAND TOTAL $ 33,263,512 $ 41,466,101 $ 10,033,570 ($ 971,903) $ 859,078 $ 46,349,100 $ 47,208,178 FISCAL YEAR 2005- 06 – ACTUAL GOVERNMENTAL: General Fund $ 14,255,418 $ 16,093,967 $ 2,527,305 $ 688,756 $ 9,114,131 $ 9,802,887 Special Revenue Funds: Public Safety Special Tax Fund 2,378,560 2,378,560 Gas Tax Fund 213,255 5,428 ( 225,000) ( 17,173) 21,470 4,297 Measure “ A” Fund 414,338 13,400 ( 425,000) ( 24,062) 106,906 82,844 Police Grants Fund 106,164 111,347 ( 14,740) ( 19,923) 154,469 134,546 Capital Projects Fund 516,741 1,380,471 666,995 ( 196,735) 773,455 576,720 PROPRIETARY: Internal Service Fund 698,709 473,258 151,501 376,952 3,946,168 4,323,120 Enterprise Funds: Water Fund 6,920,934 8,873,471 2,759,607 ( 1,013,962) ( 206,892) 19,364,102 19,157,210 Sewer Fund 5,661,547 7,836,415 3.238.621 ( 741,706) 322,047 11,945,429 12,267,476 GRAND TOTAL $ 31,165,666 $ 37,166,317 $ 8,527,788 ($ 1,604,167) $ 922.970 $ 45,426,130 $ 46,349,100 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 43 SUMMARY OF REVENUES, EXPENDITURES AND CHANGES IN FUND BALANCE – GENERAL FUND Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES BY TYPE: Taxes $ 9,091,589 $ 9,688,685 $ 10,937,710 $ 11,342,600 $ 12,035,900 $ 12,780,000 Permits 1,002,681 973,812 909,650 925,200 948,700 973,000 Intergovernmental 825,357 1,150,206 979,630 957,500 962,200 1,029,800 Use of assets 1,016,188 1,127,020 1,171,242 1,176,975 1,139,720 1,162,116 Service charges 1,120,255 1,149,151 1,081,625 1,095,700 1,114,550 1,134,003 All others 270,550 166,544 103,930 128,103 311,550 372,207 Operating transfers 2,678,692 2,628,560 2,547,560 2,547,560 2,602,560 2,522,560 Total Revenues 16,005,312 16,883,978 17,731,347 18,173,638 19,115,180 19,973,686 EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES BY DEPARTMENT: City Council 36,220 42,008 49,180 26,675 34,963 37,992 City Manager 334,207 365,256 482,971 521,823 537,766 573,111 City Attorney 96,170 110,166 104,956 118,336 124,246 125,389 Finance 260,414 281,672 322,304 369,859 376,721 399,656 General Government 792,699 833,071 885,200 903,080 915,260 933,715 Police 5,333,407 5,809,801 6,289,728 6,833,666 7,201,267 7,557,304 Fire 5,235,790 5,961,227 6,500,190 6,418,947 6,755,407 7,216,726 Planning 325,459 351,359 503,336 444,251 542,117 486,664 Building 876,277 924,421 1,110,355 1,057,200 1,066,492 1,121,258 Streets 1,335,972 1,516,241 1,483,127 1,479,801 1,560,941 1,521,871 Total Expenditures 14,626,615 16,195,222 17,731,347 18,173,638 19,115,180 19,973,686 EXCESS ( SHORTFALL) OF REVENUES AND OTHER SOURCES OVER ( UNDER) EXPENDITURES AND OTHER USES ( BUDGETARY BASIS) 1,378,697 688,756 BEGINNING FUND BALANCE 7,735,434 9,114,131 9,802,887 9,802,887 9,802,887 9,802,887 ENDING FUND BALANCE $ 9,114,131 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 $ 9,802,887 RECOMMENDED RESERVES – 30% OF OPERATING EXPENDITURES $ 4,387,985 $ 4,858,567 $ 5,319,404 $ 5,452,091 $ 5,734,554 $ 5,992,106 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 44 2007- 2008 General Fund Expenditures by Function - $ 18.2 Million Streets $ 1,479,801 8% Leisure & Social Activities $ 847,900 5% Community Development $ 1,501,451 8% General Government $ 1,036,693 6% Public Safety $ 13,307,793 73% GENERAL FUND EXPENDITURES BY FUNCTION Actual 2004/ 05 Revised Budget 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 Public Safety Streets Leisure & Social Activities Community Development General Government $ 10,624,780 1,335,972 737,116 1,201,736 727,011 $ 11,829,539 1,516,241 767,152 1,275,780 806,510 $ 12,851,918 1,483,127 798,200 1,613,691 984,411 $ 13,307,793 1,479,801 847,900 1,501,451 1,036,693 $ 14,011,874 1,560,941 860,060 1,608,609 1,073,696 $ 14,829,430 1,521,871 878,315 1,607,922 1,136,148 TOTAL $ 14,626,615 $ 16,195,222 $ 17,731,347 $ 18,173,638 $ 19,115,180 $ 19,973,686 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 45 2007- 2008 General Fund Expenditures by Object - $ 18.2 Million Capital Outlay - 0% $ 87,500 Transfers to Internal Service - 0% $ 33,747 Contract Services - 10% $ 1,766,380 Personnel Services - 91% $ 16,547,333 Reimbursements - ( 11%) $( 2,091,773) Materials & Services - 10% $ 1,830,451 Debt Service - 0% - GENERAL FUND EXPENDITURES BY OBJECT Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 1036 1,830,451 1,796,000 1,845,519 Charges/( Credits) – Other Programs ( 1,574,629) ( 1,797,962) ( 1,977,796) ( 2,091,773) ( 2,180,028) ( 2,280,444) Transfers to Internal Service 694,110 482,125 511,600 33,747 38,747 108,747 Capital 101,255 405,267 87,500 191,200 Debt Service 14,349 14,349 7,174 TOTAL $ 14,626,615 $ 16,195,222 $ 17,731,347 $ 18,173,638 $ 19,115,180 $ 19,973,686 BUDGET SUMMARIES BUDGET GRAPHICS AND SUMMARIES 46 GENERAL FUND EXTENDED FINANCIAL FORECAST 2005- 2015 ($ 000) ( 1) This extended financial forecast is a model, designed to take a forward look and project what could occur given a certain set of parameters. It can help the Town identify its priorities, allocate its resources efficiently and continue to deliver quality services to the community 05/ 06 06/ 07 07/ 08 08/ 09 09/ 10 10/ 11 11/ 12 12/ 13 13/ 14 14/ 15 Revenues: Property taxes $ 7,980 $ 8,876 $ 9,488 $ 10,098 $ 10,754 $ 11,453 $ 12,197 $ 12,990 $ 13,834 $ 14,733 Excess ERAF 623 991 755 800 848 903 962 1,025 1,092 1,163 Public safety tax 2,233 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 2,229 Business license tax 635 616 628 647 666 686 707 728 750 773 Construction permits 841 775 790 814 838 863 889 916 943 971 Vehicle license fee 963 723 738 753 768 783 799 815 831 848 Franchise fees 673 521 520 476 491 507 523 540 557 575 Service charges 1,149 1,082 1,096 1,115 1,134 1,157 1,180 1,204 1,228 1,253 All others 1,787 1,918 1,930 2,183 2,245 2,310 2,376 2,443 2,512 2,582 Total 16,884 17,731 18,174 19,115 19,973 20,891 21,862 22,890 23,976 25,127 Expenditures: Salaries 7,999 8,764 9,304 9,794 10,284 10,798 11,338 11,905 12,500 13,125 Retirement costs 2,244 2,521 2,926 3,192 3,448 3,620 3,801 3,991 4,191 4,401 Insurances 1,102 1,312 1,460 1,581 1,707 1,844 1,992 2,151 2,323 2,509 All others 2,880 2,701 2,857 2,980 3,128 3,191 3,255 3,320 3,386 3,454 Total 14,225 15,298 16,547 17,547 18,567 19,453 20,386 21,367 22,400 23,489 Mat, supplies 1,387 1,516 1,543 1,418 1,297 1,323 1,349 1,377 1,405 1,433 Transfers 583 917 84 150 109 115 127 146 171 205 Total 16,195 17,731 18,174 19,115 19,973 20,891 21,862 22,890 23,976 25,127 Excess 689 Beg Fund Balance 9,114 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 9,803 End Fund Balance $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 $ 9,803 Percentage Changes in Forecast for Revenues and Expenditures Revenues: Property taxes 5.5% 11.2% 6.9% 6.4% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% Excess ERAF 47.6% 59.0% - 23.8% 6.0% 6.0% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% 6.5% Public safety tax 2.1% - 0.2% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% Business license tax - 0.6% - 3.1% 2.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% Construction permits - 3.3% - 7.9% 2.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% Vehicle license fee 36.6% - 24.9% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% Franchise fees 14.8% - 22.5% - 0.2% - 8.5% 3.2% 3.2% 3.2% 3.2% 3.2% 3.2% Service charges 2.6% - 5.9% 1.3% 1.7% 1.7% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% All others - 6.5% 7.5% 0.6% 13.2% 2.8% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% 3.0% Total 5.5% 5.0% 2.5% 5.2% 4.5% 4.6% 4.6% 4.7% 4.7% 4.8% Expenditures: Salaries 3.7% 9.6% 6.2% 5.3% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% Retirement costs 46.2% 12.4% 16.1% 9.1% 8.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% 5.0% Insurances 19.2% 19.0% 11.3% 8.3% 8.0% 8.0% 8.0% 8.0% 8.0% 8.0% All others 23.9% - 6.2% 5.8% 4.3% 5.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% Total 13.8% 7.5% 8.2% 6.0% 5.8% 4.8% 4.8% 4.8% 4.8% 4.9% Materials & supplies 5.7% 9.7% 4.0% - 1.0% - 0.6% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% Reimbursements 14.2% 10.0% 5.8% 4.2% 4.6% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% 2.0% Contributions - 16.0% 57.2% - 90.9% 79.0% - 27.5% 5.5% 10.0% 15.0% 17.0% 20.0% Total 10.7% 9.5% 2.5% 5.2% 4.5% 4.6% 4.6% 4.7% 4.7% 4.8% CALPERS rates: Police 24.945% 35.765% 37.472% 39.445% 40.572% 40.572% 40.572% 40.572% 40.572% 40.572% Fire 22.739% 22.839% 28.427% 31.805% 32.714% 32.714% 32.714% 32.714% 32.714% 32.714% Miscellaneous 21.287% 25.092% 25.459% 26.853% 27.621% 27.621% 27.621% 27.621% 27.621% 27.621% Valuation dates 6/ 30/ 03 6/ 30/ 04 6/ 30/ 05 6/ 30/ 06 6/ 30/ 07 6/ 30/ 08 6/ 30/ 09 6/ 30/ 10 6/ 30/ 11 6/ 30/ 12 PLAN CHANGES: Police to 3% @ 50 effective 1/ 05; Miscellaneous to 3% @ 60 effective 7/ 05; Fire to 3% @ 55 effective 7/ 07 ( 1) Forecast does not include potential cost to fund GASB 45 ( Other Post Employment Benefits). Section D OPERATING PROGRAMS OPERATING PROGRAMS EXPENDITURES BY FUNCTION AND BY DEPARTMENT 47 Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 PUBLIC SAFETY Police Protection $ 5,502,181 $ 5,873,508 $ 6,428,028 $ 6,989,346 $ 7,325,767 $ 7,713,204 Fire Protection 5,235,790 5,961,227 6,500,190 6,418,947 6,755,407 7,216,726 Total Public Safety 10,737,971 11,834,735 12,928,218 13,408,293 14,081,174 14,929,930 PUBLIC UTILITIES Water Distribution 4,855,297 5,226,297 6,094,705 6,523,557 6,761,565 7,020,692 Wastewater Collection 2,876,570 3,333,663 3,665,187 3,554,251 3,636,654 3,797,615 Total Planning 325,459 351,359 503,336 444,251 462,117 486,664 Building 876,277 924,421 985,355 1,037,600 1,066,492 1,121,258 Total Community Development 1,201,736 1,275,780 1,488,691 1,481,851 1,528,609 1,607,922 GENERAL GOVERNMENT Legislative & Policy 36,220 42,008 49,180 26,675 34,963 37,992 City Administration 334,207 365,256 482,971 521,823 537,766 573,111 Public Works Administration Legal Services 96,170 110,166 104,956 118,336 124,246 125,389 Finance 260,414 281,672 322,304 369,859 376,721 399,656 General Services ( 14,828) ( 19,481) ( 131,833) ( 25,000) 25,000 25,000 Total General Government 712,183 779,261 827,578 1,011,693 1,098,696 1,161,148 TOTAL OPERATING EXPENDITURES $ 22,475,328 $ 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 $ 29,462,899 $ 30,932,693 OPERATING PROGRAMS SUMMARY EXPENDITURES BY OBJECT – ALL FUNDS COMBINED 48 Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 PERSONNEL SERVICES Salaries and Wages Salaries – Regular $ 8,629,654 $ 9,054,696 $ 9,910,600 $ 10,559,671 $ 11,136,635 $ 11,693,468 Salaries – Temporary 241,695 344,562 218,500 135,000 90,000 90,000 Overtime 693,064 965,224 553,050 647,500 669,500 684,560 Total Salaries and Wages 9,564,413 10,364,482 10,682,150 11,342,171 11,896,135 12,468,028 Benefits Retirement 1,698,707 2,485,982 2,809,052 3,246,295 3,519,156 3,800,688 Social Security/ Medicare 357,135 394,422 370,540 407,558 427,294 444,385 Health and Other Insurance 1,096,060 1,318,180 1,542,579 1,725,769 1,878,416 2,028,689 Retirees’ Health Insurance 521,883 595,862 658,550 789,530 853,341 921,607 Workers Compensation 435,260 607,543 738,857 782,221 823,446 864,617 All Others 397,238 465,136 537,916 508,443 532,442 556,409 Total Benefits 4,506,283 5,867,125 6,657,494 7,459,816 8,034,095 8,616,395 TOTAL OPERATING EXPENDITURES $ 22,475,328 $ 24,757,851 $ 27,274,795 $ 28,304,646 $ 29,462,899 $ 30,932,693 OPERATING PROGRAMS SUMMARY EXPENDITURES BY OBJECT – GENERAL FUND 49 Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised Budget 2006/ 07 Adopted Budget 2007/ 08 Preliminary Budget 2008/ 09 Preliminary Budget 2009/ 10 PERSONNEL SERVICES Salaries and Wages Salaries – Regular $ 7,711,009 $ 7,999,468 $ 8,763,762 $ 9,303,517 $ 9,794,000 $ 10,283,701 Salaries – Temporary 170,296 177,281 128,500 70,000 70,000 70,000 Overtime 631,748 876,916 492,050 562,500 579,500 594,560 Total Salaries and Wages 8,513,053 9,053,665 9,384,312 9,936,017 10,443,500 10,948,261 Benefits Retirement 1,534,816 2,243,859 2,521,288 2,926,495 3,167,573 3,420,979 Social Security/ Medicare 275,197 296,634 287,687 311,867 325,982 339,021 Health and Other Insurance 924,489 1,102,353 1,312,124 1,460,359 1,580,878 1,707,348 Retirees’ Health Insurance 472,235 537,151 597,030 725,690 783,908 846,620 Workers Compensation 395,028 549,664 660,095 695,740 730,916 767,461 All Others 380,424 442,120 536,211 491,165 514,300 537,360 Total Benefits 3,982,189 5,171,181 5,914,435 6,611,316 7,103,557 7,618,789 TOTAL35 1,830,451 1,796,000 1,845,519 CREDITS FROM OTHER PROGRAMS ( 1,574,629) ( 1,797,962) ( 1,977,796) ( 2,091,773) ( 2,180,028) ( 2,280,444) TRANSFERS TO INTERNAL SERVICE 694,110 482,125 511,600 33,747 38,747 108,747 TOTAL OPERATING EXPENDITURES $ 14,612,266 $ 16,079,618 $ 17,318,906 $ 18,086,138 $ 18,923,980 $ 19,973,686 PUBLIC SAFETY OPERATION: Police Protection DEPARTMENT: Police, General Government FUNDS: General Fund, Police Grant Fund, Capital Projects Fund 50 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised 2006/ 07 Adopted 2007/ 08 Preliminary 2008/ 09 Preliminary 2009/ 10 Personnel Services $ 4,402,398 $ 5,009,722 $ 5,551,947 $ 6,092,571 $ 6,449,658 $ 6,826,776 Contract Services 55,583 58,511 62,000 55,180 55,200 55,400 Materials & Services 613,650 642,175 814,081 836,446 815,760 825,879 Transfers to Internal Service 430,550 163,100 5,149 5,149 5,149 Total $ 5,502,181 $ 5,873,508 $ 6,428,028 $ 6,989,346 $ 7,325,767 $ 7,713,204 DESCRIPTION The department works to ensure the safety and welfare of the Town residents and their property. This goal is realized through a dynamic combination of proactive patrol, investigations, crime prevention, community education and other interactions. The department consists of two divisions: Administrative Services Division ( Headed by the Services Captain) provides support to Operations by ensuring the availability and continued maintenance of supplies and equipment, such as vehicles, weapons ( lethal & less lethal) and radios, as well as the dispatching of Officers to calls for service. It is responsible for the training, recruitment and retention of personnel. This division also handles both external and internal administrative investigations, court filings, evidence handling, records management and is a liaison to other law enforcement agencies, i. e.: FBI, DOJ, Secret Service, etc. Operations Division ( Headed by the Patrol Captain) consists of front line Police Officers and Inspectors who serve the residents. They accept crime reports, conduct criminal investigations, manage traffic issues, conduct community policing programs, provide education, manage the Alarm Specialists Program, and participate in multi- jurisdictional activities such as SWAT & K- 9 trainings and call- outs, Mutual Aid in surrounding areas and other county- wide regionalized multi- jurisdictional enforcement programs. They also provide a School Resource Officer to schools, Training Officers to the police academy and conduct various school programs and activities. STAFFING SUMMARY Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised 2006/ 07 Proposed 2007/ 08 Preliminary 2008/ 09 Preliminary 2009/ 10 Police Chief 1 1 1 1 1 1 Police Captain 2 2 2 2 2 2 Police Lieutenant * 1 1 1 Police Sergeant 4 4 4 4 4 4 Police Corporal 4 4 4 4 4 4 PUBLIC SAFETY OPERATION: Police Protection DEPARTMENT: Police, General Government FUNDS: General Fund, Police Grant Fund, Capital Projects Fund 51 STAFFING SUMMARY Actual 2004/ 05 Actual 2005/ 06 Revised 2006/ 07 Adopted 2007/ 08 Preliminary 2008/ 09 Preliminary 2009/ 10 Police Officers * 13 14 15 15 15 15 Communications Officers 4 4 4 4 4 4 Records Supervisor 1 1 1 1 1 1 Police Service Technician 2 2 2 2 2 2 Code Enforcement Officer 1 1 1 1 1 1 Executive Assistant 1 1 1 1 1 1 Total 33 34 35 36 36 36 * Total authorized positions in the department are 36. To help balance the budget, the Police Lieutenant position had been left unfunded from FY2003/ 04; and two police officers positions were not funded during 2003- 05. Funding for one police officer was resumed in 2005/ 06 and funds for the 2nd police officer were placed back in budget year 2006/ 07. Funding for the Lieutenant’s position is being resumed starting FY2007/ 08. SIGNIFICANT PROGRAM CHANGES This year’s budget resumed funding for the Lieutenant position that was cut back in the previous years as discussed above. Chief of Police ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES Police Captain ( 1) PATROL/ OPERATIONS Police Captain ( 1) COMMUNICATIONS Dispatchers ( 4) Records Supervisor ( 1) Executive Assistant ( 1) Police Lieutenant ( 1) A TEAM ( Days) Sergeant ( 1) Corporal ( 1) Officers ( 4) B TEAM ( Days) Sergeant ( 1) Corporal ( 1) Officers ( 3) C TEAM ( Evenings) Sergeant ( 1) Corporal ( 1) Officers ( 3) D TEAM ( Evenings) Sergeant ( 1) Corporal ( 1) Officers ( 3) Police Inspectors ( 2) Reserve Police Officer ( 1) Code Enforcement Officer ( 1) Police Service Technicians ( 2) PUBLIC SAFETY OPERATION: Police Protection DEPARTMENT: Police, General Government FUNDS: General Fund, Police Grant Fund, Capital Projects Fund 52 KEY PLANS FOR THE NEXT PERIOD Continue to provide proactive, front line law enforcement services ( City Goal 2). Continue to procure the most cost effective police equipment and services ( City Goal 4). Seek to replace and update equipment that will advance the technical position of the department’s staff ( City Goal 8). Continue to advance integration with other law enforcement agencies in multi- jurisdictional issues including home, vehicle & construction burglaries, identity/ mail theft rings, homeland security issues, SWAT operations, regional gang enforcement and police training at all levels ( City Goals 2 and 6). Continue in- house team building activities ( City Goal 8). Continue leadership in implementing strategic plans for technology trends among the county’s police departments ( City Goals 6 and 8). Continue and expand outreach efforts to the community that include summer safety talks, bicycle safety rodeo, Read All Day program, HTV Channel 27 personal safety commercials, emergency preparedness training for school faculty, identity theft presentations, internet safety for parents and kids, etc. ( City Goals 2 and 5). Fully roll out and implement the RoamSecure Community Alert notification system for 2007/ 08 ( City Goals 5 and 8). Recruit and retain highly qualified police officer candidates filling the authorized department staffing levels ( City Goal 8). POLICE ACTIVITY HISTORY 2004/ 05 2005/ 06 2006/ 07 as of March 30 2007 Total calls for service 7,244 7,120 5,232 Average response time 4: 27 4: 56 4: 51 Arrests – Felony Adult 10 18 8 Arrests – Felony Juvenile 2 0 3 Arrests – Total Adult 88 68 46 Arrests – Total Juvenile 39 14 11 Accidents – Injury 18 14 13 Accidents – Non- injury 67 61 48 Citations issued ( all traffic) 952 1,039 716 Crimes – Burglaries ( all) 34 49 13 Crimes – Identity Theft 11 18 13 Crimes – Stolen Vehicles 9 3 6 Crimes – Domestic Violence 12 14 8 Crimes – Child Abuse 11 17 4 Crimes – Elder/ Dependent Adult Abuse 1 7 1 Crimes – Drunk Driving ( Arrests) 7 11 7 Crimes – Sexual Assault Investigations 3 4 2 Alarm activations ( all) 2,711 2,706 1,857 Total Incident Reports 533 528 364 City Ordinance Violations – Case reports 1 3 4 City Ordinance Violations – Citations 80 77 54 PUBLIC SAFETY OPERATION: Police Protection DEPARTMENT: Police, General Government FUNDS: General Fund, Police Grant Fund, Capital Projects Fund 53 PRIOR PERIOD’S MAJOR ACCOMPLISHMENTS Continued to hold one of the lowest crime rates of any California city with populations over 10,000 through pro- active patrol and investigation efforts ( City Goal 2). Continued using and coordinating tactical information with the County- wide Electronic Tracking System to locate and apprehend regional bank robbery suspects ( City Goals 2 and 6). Secured grants which support and enhance equipment acquisitions for police personnel ( City Goals 2,4, and 8). Accessed departmental training and equipment support from regionalized grant funding sources ( City Goals 4 and 6). Continued excellent relationships with the Hillsborough School District through interactive safety programs, holiday and personal safety presentations, lunch programs and disaster preparedness meetings. This includes Nueva and Crystal Springs Uplands. ( City Goals 2 and 5). Fully participated in the 2006 County- wide Gang Task Force to disrupt and dismantle area specific criminal street gang activity ( City Goals 2 and 6). Continued and fully developed the Peninsula Rangemasters Group, a highly specialized cadre of firearms
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THE D E R ^THURSDAY* APRIL. 18, 1946 ] Fear Recofd For ^ Heolth Commissioner Issues A Worning To All Nossou Porents Measles —• the disease said to spread faster than any other—is pryamiding in Nassau county and at the rate cases are being report-ed, the number this year will top the all-time high of 6,408 cases, ^n 1941, Dr. Earle O. Brown, cohnty health commission, said today. No fatalities have been reported this year, but Dr. Brown warned that as the cases increase In num- ; they also* Increase In serious-ness. ^ There were 89 cases In January, 489 in February, and 1,137 In March. The prospects are that the March number will be doubled this month, Dr. Brown said. There have been two deaths in the state. He warned that the .disease Is n .virus infection and that parents should call the family physician at the nrst sign of such Illness In a child. „ Neglect may cause death, he warned. "Babies and young children should be kept away from any child with a cold, watery eyes or fever," Dr. Brown warned. "A child who has watery eyes today may develop a measles rash to-morrow. No disease spreads as" rapidly as measles." The rash developes about 14 days from bhe date of -exposure, he said: The child who has BeenV exposed usually begins to show onset of the disease 10 to 11 days after ex-posure. Adults may contract the disease. There is only one comfort; once a person has had measles, .they become immunized for life and can never have measles again, Dr. Brown said. "" "" """'•, IN HOUSING TOST J. Bradbury German, Jr., former Mayor of Utica, has been appointed executive assistant to the Commis-sioner of Housing in the State Division of Housing, Commissioner Herman T. Stlchman announced today. HARRINGTON-TERRY Miss Evelyn E. Terry, daughter of Mr .and Mrs. Frank Ten'y of Willow avenue, became the bride of George W. Cartlngton of Maple street, on April 8 at 4 p. m.. at the First Presbyterian church of Freeport. The Rev. A. Gordon MacRury, pasto?, officiated, and Mr. Terry gave his daughter in marriage. Miss Dorothy Meyers of Free-port was attendant to^ the bride, and Borg Christensen was beat man. The bride wore a powder-blue afternoon dress, a blue and dusty rose flower hat, and black accessories. She carried an old fashioned bouquet. Following the ceremony, a re-ception for 45 guests was held at the Freeport Elks cMb. The couple will make their home in Freeport MODEL RAILROAD ADMIRED , Pupils ndt the Archer Street School, Viewed an exhibit set up in one of t&e schoolrooms by the Archer Afodel Railroad'Club. Man types of locomotive%\coaches and freight cars were included in. Uie exhibit. There were automatic signals, bridges, switches, side-tracks, colorful stations and many of the other types of equipment used by large Tallroads. The exhibit was set up by the following boys, all pupU* in the school: Lawrence" Rea, . David Fisher,. John Face, Richard Rose, Rolf Larson. for the present. Mrs. Carrington Is a graduate of Freeport High school, while Mr. Oarrlngton at-tended schools in North Dakota. it-^3 \ x }<>\r s\<\\ ^\^\. or ^ Other Home-Mode Candies and Novelties --U, "$v ?•'•* ? . '*? W.JJ ,7$ VIEBROCK'S OWN MAKE FRENCH - ASSORTED ^%ss QUR OWN MAKE FRENCH and A^SQ CHOCOLATES Ib Boxe ZT- {ASTER KIDDY BOX LOLLIFOPS • EGOS MMJt CHOCOLATES - HERSHEY BAR f **" "' Box Sorry - No Jeffy HIGH GRADE ONLY PLUS! i'!"*«* *4 Main Stteet ?, *? Offklal Papar Year. No. 48 FREEP0RT, N.Y., THURSDAY, APRIL 25, PRICE: FIVE CENTS A 60P1 Council Aiaks Study Of Memorial Building Mayor Ryan To Nome A Committee To Investigate A resolution in which the Frceport Community Council went *%« record as recommending the consideration by the village trustees of the erection of a community center as a war memorial, followed a lengthy discussion of the war** memorial project at the Council's annual meeting In the municipal building iMonoay night. Mayor Cyril C. Ryan, who was among the ofBcials present, said he will appoint a committee to study the proposition and eubmitr-a re-port to the trustees. Trustee Wal-ter Wood, who is also a member of the .planning board, said the board is much Interested in a war ^Memorial .building and believes it would All a long-felt need of the community. (Mayor—Span,-, attei—extending, greetings on behalf of the village, urged-the council to take veterans and returned; servicemen into its confidence for advice and counsel when Jurther plans for the war memorial are discussed. The pos-s& bilities of -coordinaLing a com-munity center' program with that of the municipal studium, was pointed out by Trustee Wood. The suggestion Mhat Fjeeport start-with a, community center on a small scale, with provisions made to expand it if bhe need arose, came from John J. Brown, director i of the Westchestcr county* center, I and a. member of the stan" of the | f .Weskcheater county recreation com- i mission, who was present as a guest speaker. ' Small Center, $100,000 Brown estimated the cost of a community center, even on a small «ca,le, would amount to $100,000. but he told the members "the im-portant thing is to start without delay." Dr. Earle G. Brown, Nassau county health commissioner, recom- *<mended the formation of a com-mittee on rheumatic fever to in-clude the council's medical advisory committee. The functions of the committee, Dr. Brown explained, would include bhe launching of an «d"ucational program to instruct the public on the means of preventing the illness, and, after investigating "the number of oases In the village, to point out. the proper care for such cases. The subject of Dr. Brown's talk was "A Community Rheumatic Fever Project." He was introduced by Robert, E. Patterson, who pre-sided. .A slate of omcers submitted by the nominating cemmittee, was approved. Mo&aHng -New President The following omcers gwill serve for the 1946-47 term: Russell E. JZ3otaling, president; Mrs. Peter J. Guthy, vice-president;"Mrs. George B. Enders, secretary; Cord Vlcr %#>rock, treasurer, and Mrs. Cornelius ^.Van Rees, publicity/ director. Named to bhc executive committee, were: George Anderson, A. F. Bas-set t, Mrs. Alfred Brady, John H. Delmer, the iRcv. David Goodwin Jaxheimer, Mrs. A. J. Mackenzie, Robert E. Pattereon, Miss Helen S. Boss and Asa A. Tfenchard. Two Women jave Boy From Burning Mrs. Mickey ond Mrs. Helm Beat Out Lad's Flaming Garments Two Randall avenue women are the heroines of their neighborhood for saving the life of John Murray. 6':: years old, when his clothes -oaughl- .fire. The_.3rnun&steT._Jivf s at 216 Randall avenue. His'two TPscuers are Mrs: Helen "Hickey, of 194 Randall avenue, and Mrs. Benjamin H. Helm, of 189 Randall avenue. Johnnie wns playing near a smouldering tree stump at Randall nvenue and Hanson place when the flames ignited the cowboy suit he wore. His shrieks of pain and fright were heard by Mrs. Hickey and Mrs. Helm. They ran to him. brat nut the flames and car-ried him into .Mrs. Helm's home, where they administered nrst aid unUl the arrival of a physician. Mis. Hickey also required treat-ment for bums on' her "hands. The boy sufTered first and sec-ond degree burns of the body and might have been, fatally injured except for the prompt action of his two neighbors. He is in Uhe Free- 'port Hospital, recovering from his injuries. The Ore department was called, but there was nothing for the nre-men to do. School Budge! Up $10,736 Over That of 1945 Librory Gets $4,000 More; Solories Are Robed.$100 Eoch Despite increases in salaries of $100 each for employes of the school system, the budget for Union Free School District No. 9, which covers Freeport, will increase school taxes by only $10,736 over last year, a study of the proposed budget rev sals. This is said to be the smallest increase of any school budget in bhe county. The additional items in the bud-get this year are: $4,000 (Freeport Memorial Library 9.000 M.^ Bj^s _TmnjkBsrj^^iOji 4.000 AdulT Education Call Public Hearing On Budget; Same Tax Bate No Increase Despite Plan To Spend $6,615 More Than In 1945 A public bearing on Freeports* proposed budge? for the com* mcK,ycHr will be be Id tomorrow night at the regular meeting of tlw \ i I luge Board in the municipal building. "" = —<& Taxpayers will be happy to learn Brlllih War Bride Finds Freeport Fine ^ $17,000 Total The employees of the school sys-tem.— faculty, custodial force, ?nd clerks — according to the salary schedules, receive an mciease of $100 making a total of $38.810. The returnmg servicemen were guaranteed their Jobs upon rcen-tering the school systtm. These men were In the higher anlnrlcs Substitute people, who were tem-porarily taking their places, were lower. One additional physical education teacher has been added to ,t%&e High''" Qchppl •=f acylty/i^r*'*'*'' ''"• ':''•" ^*'J *• •• The amount to .be raised by tax laat year was $537.164. The amount to be raised, -by tax in 1946-47 is (continued on page 8) Wives of iSergeonts Poroscondolo and Hopke Arrive Here Two brides and an Infant child of Freeport veterans reache\d this village on Easter Sunday, \ after landing from the Queen Mar)) SET THE CLOCKS AH&AD You^l be, late for church if you fojget to set your clocks one hour ahead before retiring Saturday night. JgP.r, . at 2 AJM. Sunday, - dayl^AT saving goes into egect, to ,, remain until September, So you . .jpee an hour's sleep this Saturday. ^ypij.. can/make It up, though, in ^September. Does Anyone Know These Freeport Folks? Do you know Mnthildc Tnnkow. formerly of 207 Rnndall avenue? Or Sophia Berthold, formerly of Freeport. ? Or Peter Kritikos, .\%hn used to have Box 182 in the Free-port Post Omce? If anyone knows the prrrrnt, lo-cations of these people, the Nassau County Chapter of "the American .Red Cross, at Mineola. would like the information, for It cannot lo-cate them. . For Miss or Mrs. Tankow. (lie chapter has received a message from persons in a foreign country, and. ls,=imable to deliver It. For Sophia Berthold and Petar Krikltos, the chapter has .received requests for welfare and news reports from relatives or friends abroad. NEW VILLAGE COUNSEL b SETS OFFICE HOURS For the convenience of the pub-lic, Martin H. Weyrauch, the new village counsel, announces the fol-lowing hours when he will be in his omcc hi the municipal building to transact village business: Mondays and Tuesdays—8:30 to 11 A.M. Wednesdays—3 to. 6 PM. Thursdays—3 to 6 P.M. Saturdays—9 A.M. to noon. FRIEDMAN'S PHARMACY OPEN ALL DAY SUNDAY Friedman's Pharmacy. Inc., 65 West Sunrise highway, w*B remain open Sunday after all the other druggists In the village cloee at 2 P. M. The telephone Is Freeport 1. Molloy Council Reody For Minstrel Plans are practically completed and rehearsals almost at an end for the Bishop Molloy council. Knights of Columbus, minstrel show which is to take place at St. Christopher's school hall in Bald-win, announced Luke J. Smith, general chairman of the affair, after a meeting «f tin* council Tuesday night. There will be a nre-view and dress rehearsal-'TiTr' the school children of Baldwin Bell more, Freeport. Merrick and Roosevelt on Sunday afternoon April- 28th at,three o'clock. Ar-rangements have been made to convey the Sisters to and from the show in private automobiles. The evening performances will take T]l8ce^on- May 3rd and 4th. with dancing atier each performance. -Music—will be furnished by Ernie Brierly and his_ qrcKSstra. The cast has been rehearsing for the past several weeks, under the direction of Eddie Kelly "the minstrel 'man of Queens", and promises to be one of the best shows produced on Long Island In a long time. Smith is^hejng as-sisted by the following committee, James P. McHugh, Treasurer; Wil-liam A. Dunker. Minstrels: Frank McConvllle. Tickets; TnAus Albers, Journal; Henry J. Dense!. Pub-licity, and James A. Butler, Print- Ing. There was an exemplification of the.nrst degree under the direction of'tWilliam J. McVay, grand knight, and his stag, at the meeting Tues-day night. There was no regular business conducted at this meeting, the, entire evening being devoted to*the exemplification. On account of this-t?em? Holy. Wedc there were on refreshments or social hour "following the exemplification.* 2,332 other wives nUourd. They are: Mrs. Shlela M. G. Parascondola and her three-monUi-old daughter. Shlela M. The proud husband and father Is former Sgt. An in ony J. Parastondo.a. of 385 Siymond 6 true t. Mi's. Miirjorlr A. iiopke. wife of former Syt. H. D. Hopke, of 67 California, avenue. (Mrs. Parascondola admitted that she was a bit seasick on the across, but the baby was One. Sgt. Parascondola was abroad nearly three years a^ met h*& {bride] .i%& her .- ;., WJ W X^ ^ W. t &4V*q &T&MJ*C"*, * ******? Ic" he'* TXms-sta Honed'' there in 1943. The couple were married on March. 10, 1045, in Liverpool. "How do I like Fre-port?" said Mrs. Parascondola. "Why, I like it very much, fur I lived in the suburbs of Liverpool and Freeport Is very much likv my home com-munity." The formrr service man is in business wiuh his lather, and so expects to remain here wiUi his wife ji nd baby. Nobody was at home in bhc Hopkc hotise when a LEADER re- . porter called there. Christ Church To Hold Anniversary Christ Lutheran Church the Rev. that although the. trustees antici-pate spending $6,615 more than last year, the tax rate remains the same, namely, $1,33 on each $100. Total expenditures last year ag-gregated $712,796.29. Thla year, the trustees hope to be allowed to spend $719,411.49. But a summary of the provisions for meeting ex-penditures anticipates a revenue of $221,445.18, so the coming nscal year might end with a generous balance in the bank* . A summary of principal budge- Cary "Items R^Ri3es"tKi^ followCngT General government: $76,143.48. "^ Protection of Persons and Prop-erty: $171.003.06. ^ Sanitation: $143,332.56. Highway Department: $61,306.59. Recreation: $27,285.52. Miscellaneous: $9,233.29. Municipal Indebtedness: $232,- 107 99. The village board has already done :i bit of budget-paring, for the recommendations by department heads would have brought the total budget tq $746,720.54, or about 300 more than vthbj«tFWAt$8B ^htl^on^ i«s $"407^.9^66.31, on an assessed valuation of $97.574,020. Police department salaries, in-cluding more personnel, arc expect-ed to rise about, $25,000 in the tentative budget. The Highway Department is slated to Ret about $8,000 more than last year's ex-penscs; recreation is increased sliglitiy under $3.000, and there is $1,500 extra for miscellaneous ex-penses. BM municipal indebted-ness takes a substantial drop of $21,156. The amount to be raised by taxation is also lower by about $2,600. The municipal Indebtedness thh year includes n nrst payment on the bond issue of $9,500. In the provisions ror meeting ap-propriations, it is anticipated that David G. Jaxheimer, pastor, will , the State contribution will amount cclobrate the 20th anniversary of tihc dedication.of the church build-ing this Sunday. The guest, pieachcr will be the Rev. Carl H. Miller, who was paator of the to $69,828. CLEAN-UP WEEK Freeport village trucks will roll through the streets of the com- Church durin; the years 1919-1930, t munlty to make daily collections and therefore (pastor al the time | durlrlg "cleanup week," AprlT 29 the Church was dedicated. He to May 4, and residents-ha,[email protected]. preach" at both the 9 o'clock and 10;45 services. On Wednesday, May I3tT there requestcd to co-operate by all bundles packed and accessible for a quick p.lck-up. will be an anniversary Smorgas- in the event that assistance Is bord supper. The supper be needed for details other than col-served by the Ladles' Aid at 6:30, ; lections, residents may telephone and.' will be followed by entertain- JFreeport 4930, from 9 a.m. to ment which will be provided by the 4:30 p. m. ,and a member of the Parish Auxiliaries. T^ere will be committee will supply the infor-no charge for the supper, but an mat ion needed. offering will 'be taken to cover ex-penses. 'Reservations must be JUDGE GREASON SPEAKS turned in not later than April 28. . TO EXCHANGE CLUB District Court Judge Samuel SCHOOL BOARDS MEET Greason was the guest spepker The Nassau County School Board yesterday at the luncheon-meeting Association, composed' of the mem- i of-the Exchange. Club, held In. the bers of all the school boards In the Elks" Clubhouse. county, met yesterday afternoon In Judge Greason is A veteran of the Columbus avenue school here.'both world ware. In the second, Clifton B. Smlbh, who is vice he was a colonel on the staff of chairman of the local school board and also of the State (Association of School Boards, spoke on salaries. Dr, John W. Dodd superintendent , dMcussed veterans' edu-cation and employment* Oen. Eisenhower In Europe. Judge' Oreason 'described some of his advent/urea on the European battlefronts and told of an unex-pected meeting with hla «on on the other side.
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This lovely structure took many children to create. It’s not just beautiful – it’s fantastically educational as the children discover just how complex and intricate a real spider web is.
Image source: Irresistible Ideas for Play Based Learning
And that is a tragedy. When play goes, learning goes. We have over 100 years of solid research that shows that the natural way for young children to learn is through play [PDF, 573KB]. When worksheets, deskwork and standardised testing replace play we are harming children; when we cut or eliminate recess we are harming children; when we give them ever-increasing quantities of homework we are harming children – and the research cited above shows that the harm can be life-long.
And as Marc Armitage says “Play MUST happen BEFORE learning can occur“.
Not “Play is something that can add to the ‘real’ learning that happens in chairs and desks in the classroom”.
Not “Play is a way for children to let off steam between the ‘real’ learning that happens from worksheets and sorting trays”.
Young children need to learn about safe tool use – and the only way they can do that is through using REAL tools. A pretend plastic drill teaches nothing about risk or safe tool use.
Image source: Precious Childhood
These children put enormous thought into building this tower and making sure it was strong and stable enough to be climbed on. Given the opportunity for free play and calculated risks children are natural risk-assessors. Fortunately they have an educator who supports and encourages them in this sort of challenging play.
Image source: Flights of Whimsy
Play MUST happen BEFORE learning can occur.
Because play IS the real learning. And play – real play – is freely chosen and child-led. It is NOT imposed by adults. Adults can support play, they can provide a rich environment for play, they can extend play, they can model ways of playing, but the minute they impose play it stops being PLAY – and it becomes WORK.
That’s why my Child’s Play Music programs focus on child-led play. I give children almost complete freedom to play with my instruments as they like. I provide only the most minimal guidance as to how to play the instruments – just enough to get them started. And then I stand back and let the children explore the instruments.
I deliberately group my drums like this to encourage shared play and learning through modelling. You can see one child only has one drumstick; a few moments later he was using two like the other children.
And they always amaze me. They come up with ways of playing them I would never have thought of. And because I don’t teach them how to play the instruments they teach themselves – because free play is the greatest teaching method for young children.
Note how the girl on the right is observing – then a few seconds later the roles were reversed, and then they played together – a natural duet without any teaching necessary.
My program is definitely play-focused and child-led, but there’s also room for slightly more structured music activities – so long as you keep one thing in mind: FREE PLAY MUST ALWAYS COME FIRST! (Sorry about the ALL CAPS, but it really is that important!)
At first most young children will just play on one note – but very soon they experiment with the whole scale
In my own programs I always begin with totally free, unstructured, child-led play – but that doesn’t mean you can’t scaffold their play by introducing new ideas and techniques. You don’t even have to think of it as ‘teaching’; merely modelling a different playing technique can be more than enough to spark children’s ideas.
This is typical of how most young children first play drums – both sticks hitting together on one drum only
I often play drums with very young children (say 2-5) and their natural tendency is to whack with the two drumsticks as hard as they can, hitting together with both sticks on one drum. Because it’s FUN! But when I play a simple rhythm with alternating sticks or simple patterns of alternating drums the children pick up on it immediately and make it their own.
They may not play exactly what I play, but they take the idea and experiment with it in their own way. And that is the power of play too – because play is the way that children learn, they will take anything and everything they see and hear and experience and make it their own.
I don’t think of this as ‘teaching’ because I’m not saying “hey, if you hit this drum once then that drum twice, and then pause, and then repeat that pattern we can all play Queen’s ‘We Will Rock You!” I could do it, but then it wouldn’t be play, it would be teaching. My moment of joy comes when the child spontaneously discovers the ‘We Will Rock You” rhythm for themselves – and they do, through play, and the look of pride on their face says it all.
Enough about what I do – here’s some more of what Malissa said in a later email:
I am very interested in starting something that has the ability to change minds on how people think about children and their learning. Being able to change the hearts and minds of children and what people think of education is actually one of my passions in being on this earth. I know I am only 20 but there are a lot of things I would really like to accomplish in this world..
Now that is inspiring! “Being able to change the hearts and minds of children and what people think of education is actually one of my passions in being on this earth … I care so much about children and how they are learning and what is going on in their worlds. I want to make a bigger difference”.
Some images from Malissa’s most recent play project – a cardboard box, some dress-ups, and these children are having fun! And that means they are LEARNING! Malissa is making “a bigger difference”!
This child wore this drum on his head so all his friends could play it while he was wearing it – now THAT is creative play! Would you have thought of that? I know I wouldn’t! But this child did through free play!
The shop is now open – would you like to buy some stickers?
Image credits: Malissa Carey
Malissa, you may be only 20, but it’s people like you – young people with passion and fire and determination – who will be changing the world. You and your peers are the next generation of educators. It’s you and others like you who can make sure that play is where it ought to be: at the centre, the core, the living heart of education.
And if you can do it and keep that fire and passion then it’s not just education that will be improved: it’s the lives of the children you will educate. You CAN make a difference and the difference is vital. Because the future of education is not worksheets, more deskwork, less recess, extra homework and standardised testing:
The Future of Education is Play.
This is REAL play! Children will learn far more – FAR MORE – in the natural environment than sitting in a desk. I always say there is nothing you can do inside that you can’t do outside, but there are thousands of things you can ONLY learn by being outside in the real world.
Image source: let the children play
Fantastic post Alec, and if makes others start to either feel as passionately as Malissa or to reawaken theri pride in their role in young childrens lives, so much the better. Thanks for writing such an amazing post, Kierna
You know I meant ‘their’, don’t you?
Well, of course I did – and if you are really worried about a minor spelling error I can edit it for you
Thanks for the positive feedback – it’s been so long since I last blogged that I had lost confidence. I’ve got so many drafts, so many posts I’ve just started and then abandoned. I felt they had merit, but then I got bogged down. I would come back to them and go “No, no, no, this isn’t what I meant! I don’t think they are worth fixing!”
Maybe – just maybe – I was wrong and they are worth going on with. Some time away from them, a fresh eye, some new perspective and perhaps I can fix them. Because I DO think I have stuff worth saying but my perfectionism gets in the way. I’ll never be a Teacher Tom, with a new post every day, but 3 months between blog posts is taking minimalism to ridiculous heights!
Thanks again!
This is a great post, it is so true and so important that we begin to see how much is learned through play. It really is not a past time but the way humans learn. Thank you for a wonderful blog.
Kristi
Thank you, Kristi – I really appreciate your support. Incidentally, while in this post I’m mainly talking about play in early childhood education, I honestly believe that play is the best way for all people, of whatever age, to learn. Play triggers powerful brain chemicals that make learning both easier and more sustained.
I’m not saying adults can’t learn other ways too (I love learning from books, for instance) but when I want to consolidate that learning I do it through play. When I’m learning a new jazz progression I do it from sheet music – but to make it stick I have to play!
I love, love, love this post, Alec! There is so much to be learned through play, things that can not be “taught” by a teacher, but must be “experienced” by the learner instead. I wish every bureaucrat making decisions on educational policy (especially here in the US) could read this post. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if, instead of “pushing down the curriculum” to our younger learners, if we “pushed up play” to elementary children. What if grade school kids (grades K-5 for example) had part of their day for free play and exploration? My guess is we would foster many more inventors and independent thinkers, just for starters!
Thanks for sharing your correspondence to Malissa. It makes me hopeful that we are getting the word out and headed in the right direction in our attitudes towards play based learning! Her enthusiasm is refreshing!
Yes, yes, yes! Play needs to be pushed up – and not just to K-5, but to every part of the education system. Right up to post-doc! And beyond! Imagine if our politicians and bureaucrats spent part of their days in play – what might come of that?
It is happening – Google employees get 20% of their time for play projects. They don’t have to justify them, they don’t even have to make a profit from them – but the profits come, because play works!
I look at my own business – the profits I make don’t come because I’ve got a brilliant business mind; they come because I play with ideas, I play with new ways to present my ideas, I play with new ways to engage my students, I play with new ways to make instruments, I play with new ways to network with my peers.
Many of my play ideas fail – and that doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Because the failures gives me new ideas for better ways to play, better ways to make it work. When I stop playing you can nail the lid down, because if I’m not actually dead I might as well be. You Americans came up with a fabulous phrase: “the pursuit of happiness”. Play is what makes me happy
The rest is work.
Thank you for reading it. It was a pleasure to share my passion. It’s just saddening sometimes when I’m over here in America wanting to get out and do my own thing but I’m stuck by the system. I’m hoping to get my ideas out there and help to be an advocate for Early Childhood Education here and across the world. Hopefully one day, they might listen to some of us and realize that what they are requiring us to do isn’t the right thing.
I love contagious passion, and both you and Malissa have it. If people could only put themselves back in their own childish shoes, and realise that we only really learn when we’re interested and self-motivated.
Perhaps a more playful attitude to your blogging will help you be less perfectionist, Alec. Sometimes you just have to invite comments and hit PUBLISH. In the whole scheme of things online, your posts are head and shoulders above the crowd in terms of presentation and content, so I don’t think there’s a huge risk of failure happening here! ;D
Thanks – and you are so right about my perfectionism. I will try to take it to heart, and yes, I do have another post close to be ready to publish. It will be very different but I hope it gets a response – this post certainly has!
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Well said! Lovely to see you back with a bang and clatter with this blog post.
Bang and clatter sounds good! It’s THUD I’m always afraid of
Loveliness! In the listening AND the telling!
Thanks Lesley. Without that listening I would never have got round to the telling. I think I need to listen more. Actually, quite a few people have told me that – it’s strange I find writing so daunting since most people who know me will tell you that getting me to stop talking is a major achievement LOL.
This is a terrific blog post Alec!
I LOVE your passion and I LOVE that quote … “Play MUST happen BEFORE learning can occur.”
Donna
Thanks Donna – and thanks also for that quote, because as I know you know I “borrowed” it directly from your own blog post. I SO regret that Marc didn’t get to Perth this time. If he doesn’t make it to Perth on his next visit I afraid I’m going to have to get my Italian relatives to make you all an offer you can’t refuse. Capisce? LOL
Ritual grew up in sacred play; poetry was born in play and nourished on play; music and dancing were pure play…. We have to conclude, therefore, that civilization, in its earliest phases, played. It does not come from play…it arises in and as play, and never leaves it.
Johan Huizing
Dutch historian
1872–1945
Alex, thanks for your blog post. As foundation stage teacher, I retired after largely ignoring those ”teach to test” voices growing ever louder. I was trained in the 70s when play was central to learning without question. Too much teachers play time is spent ticking boxes for people who just don’t ‘get it’.
Educators like you give me hope and make me happy.
Sue – that is a fantastic quote – I may have to steal it for a future post
I know so many teachers and early educators – excellent ones – leaving for the same or related reasons. In child care in Australia (which is where I came from – I have a degree in child care and child development) educators are leaving so fast they can’t train new ones fast enough to keep up with the resignations.
Part of that (a big part) is the appallingly low pay. But the research shows that a close second reason is the ever-increasing demands for “ticking the boxes”. Good educators want to educate – they want to BE with the children providing exciting challenging play environments and scaffolding the children’s learning. Instead they find that they spend most of their time completing pointless documentation, ticking boxes, filling out forms – in short, the point of the profession is now often seen as the production of the evidence of learning (and most of that evidence is entirely spurious), rather than the learning itself.
For good educators this is soul-destroying. They KNOW how to create great learning environments and support children’s learning. But they are not being allowed to implement those programs because to do so means that they don’t have the time to “tick the boxes” – and they know that those “ticked boxes” are worse than meaningless – but ticking the boxes” has become compulsory.
Now I’m not arguing for a total rejection of documentation. But documentation is only useful when it is real and accurate and provides useful information that allows an educator to provide a better program that better serves the needs of the children being educated. 90% of the documentation I see should never have been collected and should be immediately consigned to the recycling bin.
Let me give you one example: small children suffer minor injuries every day. A child falls over and suffers a minor scrape to the knee, for example. All that is really necessary is that the child is comforted, the scrape is cleaned, and possibly a band aid applied. Total time should be 2 to 3 minutes, tops. And in a child care setting such minor injuries happen many times every day.
Under our current regulatory system for each and every one of those injuries the caregiver must fill in a form (by hand) that lists:
1. the child’s name
2. Date of birth
3. Current age of the child
4. The room or group the child belongs in
5.Circumstances leading to the incident (In full written detail)
6. Any product or structures involved (In full written detail)
7. The location the incident occurred (In full written detail)
8. The names of any witnesses to the incident
9. The time of the incident
10. The date of the incident
11. the signature of the witness
12 the date of the completion of the form [although you are instructed to fill in the form as soon as possible you have up to 24 hours to complete the form; failure to complete the form in a timely manner can result in large fines]
13. The nature of the injury sustained (their are 11 options listed, including “Other (please specify). [I can't help noticing that there are two spelling mistakes in the options!!!!]
14. Indicate the location of the injury to the child on a drawing provided on the form.
15. Provide full written details of action taken, including first aid and/or administration of any medication.
16. Were medical personnel contacted: Yes/No
17. If yes, provide full written details
18. Name of person completing this record
19. Signature of person completing this record
20. Time record was made
21. Date record was made
22. Notification of parent/guardian – Time and Date
23. Notification of director/coordinator – Time and Date
24. Notification of Regulatory Authority (if applicable) – Time and Date
25. Parental Acknowledgement (Name and signature and date)
26. Additional notes/follow up
Filling in that form accurately would take me about 15 to 20 minutes, I estimate. For a scraped knee!!!!! And on a bad day an educator might have to fill in 10 or more of these injury forms.
Further, the form must be kept, and stored ‘securely and confidentially” until the child is 25 years old!!!!!!
And that is just one tiny example of the sort of (forgive my language) utter bullshit that educators are dealing with all day, every day, when what they should really be doing is educating children!
Now what I believe should really happen in such a circumstance is simple: the child is comforted, the scrape is cleaned, and possibly a band aid applied. A brief note to that effect should be recorded in a day book: “Billy – scraped knee – scrape cleaned – bandaid applied. Signed Joe Bloggs” and when the parent arrives to collect the child the caregiver should say “Billy skinned his knee again!”
And that should be it. What more is necessary? Now if Billy has broken his arm, or suffered concussion, or any major accident that requires medical treatment then of course a more formal procedure must be in place, and the current form seems perfectly adequate and appropriate. But for skinned knees or a minor bruise, or a scratch the current system is insane!
Nice posted Alec and I too think it’s nice to see you back.
Perth? I got to Perth in August … OK so it was Perth in Tasmania, but Perth it was!
Next year … promise.
Thanks – and I’ll hold you to that. I’ve never been to Perth in Tazzie. I’ve been to Perth in Scotland, but since at the time I was 18 months old I can’t say I remember it well – or at all!
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Awesome post!
My degree is in grades 1-5. My first job offer was in Kindergarten. I was petrified and felt like I was drowning…..but I eventually loved it and rocked it out. (that was last school year). 2 weeks into this school year (after my Kindergarten classroom was fully decorated and organized, after I’d met my Kindergarten students and contacted their parents to say hello, and after 3 months (summer ‘vacation’) of research about Kindergarten) I was moved into Pre-K in a totally different school because my school didn’t have enough Kindergarten students.
I’m lost. I don’t understand the need for play all day. I don’t know how to teach students anything. I don’t know how to accomplish the goals I want accomplished without sitting and teaching. I’d love as many ideas as you can muster. I found out through Pinterest, along with more Pre-K ideas I’ll be trying ASAP! Please help! I have a drowning sensation again and I’m a perfectionist and would love to do great.
Ariel, the best advice I can give you is to check out some of the great play-based blogs. They will help you get a handle on what play does for young children, why it is so valuable and why it’s THE best way for Pre-K children to learn.
Pre-K is very different to the teaching you’ve been doing, so I quite understand your concerns. But the great thing is that with Pre-K you don’t teach by teaching – the children learn by doing through play. Your job isn’t to teach, per se: it’s to provide the environment in which the children will learn for themselves. It’s all about setting up an environment that is stimulating and which offers children constant opportunities for hands-on exploration.
So here are some must-read blogs by people with huge experience in providing stimulating programs:
Teacher Tom
Jennifer at let the children play
Donna and Sherry at Irresistible Ideas for Play Based learning
Lesley at Takoma Park Cooperative Nursery School
Karen Green at Flights of Whimsy
Ayn Colsh at Little Illuminations
Niki Buchan at Precious Childhood
Kierna Corr at Learning for Life
Aunt Annie at Aunt Annie’s Childcare
Denita Dinger at Play Counts
Juliet at I’m a teacher, get me OUTSIDE here!
Jeff at Explorations Early Learning, LLC
Christie at Childhood 101
Now this is not an exclusive list – there are hundreds of great early childhood bloggers out there (and thousands of crappy ones!). And the bloggers in this list are very varied – they all have their own take and some of them probably would be very surprised to find themselves in the company of others on this list – but they are all worth reading, they all have great ideas, and they are all HUGELY experienced in working with very young children in play-based programs.
Also they are all on Facebook and I can’t stress enough how wonderful Facebook can be for finding up-to-the-minute ideas. Their blogs give you depth; their Facebook Pages give you instant ideas and feedback. Got a question, or a problem you need help with NOW? Ask on the Facebook Pages and you will be overwhelmed with help and ideas (first port of call for this is definitely Irresistible Ideas For Play Based Learning. Just ask your question and Donna and Sherry will post it up and you will have dozens of responses from their fans within minutes)
I hope this helps you – and enjoy your new career, because I honestly reckon you are going to love working in Pre-K. It’s the most wonderful age to work with, with the added bonus that YOU get to play too!
I stole chunks of this and reposted on my blog – linked to here of course. Thank you SO MUCH for putting this into such succinct words, and for the research links as well.
I’m glad you liked my material, and I’m happy for you to repost it in the way you have.
I appreciate it that you’ve made the links redirect to my post – thanks, not everyone is so generous. Could I ask a small favour? Could you add a specific link to my blog that gives the name of my blog and the post? Just a link that says something like “Source: Child’s Play Music – The Future of Education is Play”. I would really appreciate it! Alec.
Best post ever and love the photos too – especially that little scrolling device. Thanks Alec
Thanks! But the photos are mainly from my fantastic blogging buddies’ blogs, so please visit their blogs to see the awesome stuff they do! You can just click on a photo or the link below the photo and – SHAZAM! Blogging heaven!
But what “little scrolling device” are you referring to? I’ve got nothing special on this blog by way of widgets, and I don’t have any “scrolling device” that I’m aware of. When I read this post I can only scroll the usual ways – with my mousewheel or with the sidebars. Somebody else asked me about this special scrolling device too – but I don’t know what it means! Can you tell me more?
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Apart from all the other great aspects of this post, I think it’s important to highlight how a student from halfway around the world is inspiring you and others because she has been inspired by you. Learning and inspiration can be a cyclical thing as well as ongoing. I think it’s cool that Malissa’s message is borne from an admiration for your work, but that otself is gaining admiration from you and the rest of us.
I tell you what, if Malissa doesn’t make it to work with you Alec then I’ll happily have her join me.
Thanks Greg. You’ve hit the nail on the head – “Learning and inspiration can be a cyclical thing as well as ongoing.”
That cycle is exactly what made me write this post – I inspired Malissa, she inspired me. And from the comments I’ve had it looks like this post has inspired other people. And hopefully, that cycle of inspiration will keep rolling on. Maybe right now someone is writing a post inspired by this one. And that will inspire someone else and …
I would love to join you both! I’m looking to get my ideas and my name out wherever I can. One of my professors at Concordia University saw this blog and told me I should be an advocate for Early Childhood Education all around the world. My passion is Africa, but I’m willing to start wherever the Lord leads me
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Very well stated!! What a great post. Thank you for sharing at Sharing Saturday!! I hope you will join us again!
FYI–My virus software did not want me to visit your blog. Don’t know why.
Thank you – I’m glad you liked it. That’s very worrying about your virus software – this is a safe site, and it’s hosted on wordpress.com which is generally considered the most secure of all the blogging platforms. I had a recent problem on Facebook of a similar nature – people clicking on links to my posts were getting warnings from Facebook about my site! I really can’t think what it can be. I’ve had my site thoroughly checked, including by Google, and there is no malware on my site and obviously the material on the my site is not offensive or dangerous.
I did have it suggested to me on the WordPress forum that someone might have deliberately targeted my site (for reasons unknown) and have maliciously reported me to Google and/or Facebook. I can’t think who would do such a thing or why – it’s not like my material is controversial, and I’m not such a big business that my competitors would do something like that, I’m sure.
All I can do is hope it goes away. Thanks for the heads-up! Alec.
Very exciting to read a blog on play as education, specifically music. This is the direction I have been going with my teaching and now with my Kids. I think music is super important and have been looking for ways to do more.
On a side note, I am also a Concordia graduate, but Concordia TX…
Rebeka, I agree – music is super important. And so is play. Putting them together is a no-brainer IMO. I’m so glad that there are other people out there besides myself who feel the same way, so thanks for your comment!
BTW if you are passionate about music and play I strongly recommend you check out the work of Julie Wylie from New Zealand. She has a website at and her facebook page is at. She is REALLY respected in the music/play/education field and is also a presenter at major conferences and writes solid academic articles as well. |
Just A Day...doo doo doo doo...doo
doo doo doooo.
Today has been quite a boring day. As this is my blog, it is my honour, nay, my duty to pass on information about my blog to you, my twenty million hits a day audience.
Firstly, Data Structures. Lucky us. It's probably the most boring thing that has ever existed (well, certainly now, now that "Scavengers: The second worst thing John Leslie's Done" went off the air). I bet when The Big Bloke Society for Stereotypical AssignmentTMwas looking down on Earth, and thought "How can we stereotypically label people who study computers?", I'll wager they were looking in on a Data Structures lecture, and thought "I know.....nerd! That'll teach the boring bastards". In the end, all I remember was while lecture bloke was ranting on in a semi-senile state about Arrays, I fell asleep. Not good, no, but anybody who has ever studied the fun fun fun world of Data Structures would sympathise with me. Whoever teaches it, whatever form you teach it in, even if you write it across a woman's knockers in felt tip, it would still be boring. Yes, it's essential. Yes, it's 80% exam. Yes, it's pants.
A bit of an embarrassing "I shouldn't be here" type situation also occurred in our usual block, the good ol' Leccy Engineering block. Now before I relate this tale of mirthful woe, that will have you rolling about on the floor in such a way only previously achieved by alcohol, I must tell you this:-
- One of the lifts, for the past few weeks, has been a bit poo. It's also been on the blink for the past few days, and today was the first day this week that it has been fixed.
- I hardly ever use the lifts, not now on my training programme.
- I got into the dodgier of the two lifts.
- The two main floors I use are the third (leading to the computer labs) and the ground (leading to the bar).
So, 1pm arrived. As it was the end of a long day, I decided that I would forsake my training programme, and go back to the ground floor using the masterful machine work commonly called the lift. I got in, the doors shut.
Nothing.
I waited a few seconds, still nothing. Was the pants lift not working again? Or was I forgetting something?
It actually turned out I was, I forgot to press the button. Oh, snooker loopy nuts are we.Finally, now that you've picked yourselves quite literally off the floor after the fits of laughter you've experience, our last lecture of the day was Software Development. This is turning out to be a deja-vu-stroke-quite-interesting type situation, and there is an added bonus of the project, unlike the Data Structures "Make an unfun text only version of Transport Tycoon in Java, that'd make Chris Sawyer roll in his grave, if he was dead" Assignment, is actually quite interesting. Basically it involves all the people in the lecture (and there are loads, if we all banded together, we could probably start, and win, a war with Lichtenstein or some loser country like that) to basically produce a fully functioning website that would make Mr.Yahoo, Mr. Google and Mr. MSN wet their pants in humbleness. Even theough I am proverbial veteran to this web development mullarkey, there were a bunch of people in there who didn't have a clue, despite one coming from "I know, I'll impress the lecturer by shouting out random acronyms, even if I don't know what I'm on about" school of web development. Anyway, I'm sure that mine will be excellent.
"Aha!" I hear you cry, "What's this 'It might be fantstic, it might be pants' site going to be all about?". Well, in truth, I don't have a bleeding clue. It's being kept a suprise until Friday. Us being pathetic gamblers of Michael Owen calibre, we've already taken bets on what it is going to be. Odds on favourite is German porn. Whatever it is, if somehow this site is fantasitc, and generates so much intrest from industry bigwigs that we can call fuck our degrees, and retire on £20 million and beautiful trophy wives, then you'll hear it here first! (unless if you are in the lecture, in which case you'll hear it here second).
Keep the Faith
Rhys
PS. Four weeks until Feeder. You know you want it.
|EDIT| Due to me spending a long time down the Dovedale (a bar on Penny Lane) yesterday, I forgot to post this. So it's a case of switchy-roony with all "Today"'s to "yesterday"'s type situation. Now don't say I don't make you work for this fine piece of webrature.
The Village Bike
Yesterday, the "Training Programme" (as it's been so eliquently dubbed) continued. Swimming for another hour, followed by about 40 minutes on the exercise bike. However, quite suprisingly, I under-estimated my fitness. I proceeded to go on "Level 1" resistance. However, I hardly broke up a sweat. I did however cycled 16 miles (for all you geographers out there, that's the distance from me in Colwyn Bay to my nearest known website on GeoUrl) and burned off 170 calories (about half a pint). Result! Lance Storm will be quaking in his boots, fearing the king of the swimming pool and now the exercise bike.
I'm having a day off from "Training" today, because I just cannot be arsed.It snowed today as well. That was pretty cool. Not for long though, but long enough for me to get half the antartic shoved down my back. Oh, aren't Computer Scientists just so hillariously funny? I'm sure Bill Gates is not adverse to doing stunts that would make Johnny Knoksville and his mates wince in pain or lighting his farts when he's had a few.
Speaking on Computer Scientists. Apart from being so funny they make people that Dave Gorman bloke seem as funny as cholera, they also must ALL be wearing glasses. Their monitors have such huge text it's unbelievable. That, and beards. You must have a beard. I think it was COMP105: Beard Growth and Tweed Jacket Fashions.
I knew I had to slip on one module.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
No wait, Liverpool wouldn't beat Crystal Palace.
Right, that's my last post for the day, I've spent so much time on this today, and I'm going for some tea.
Keep The Faith
Rhys
Really not much else to say about that. It's not quite 15k or 20g's, but it's a start.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Cryptic Messages
Again, much to the unequivial delights of students of the "long posts? give me short sharp stories" school of blogging, another bitty post, with a few shorter posts compressed into one type situation for your ease of enjoyment.
The weekend in Liverpool (only my third) was good fun. Now, over the weekend I did have a bit of a row with my orangeade bottle wielding mum about last mondays events, which she read on this very site. So that all you reglar readers could be enlightened on the events of saturday, here it is:-
The night began in a bar at 8 O'Clock. After one or five drinks of Jack Daniels and coke, we were quite drunkenly happy. We later went to the guild due to their cheap drinks and rather expensive salad bar. I cannot remember, but shortly before 11 o'clock, we went to the Time Tunnel because it had a late licence and their music is fantastic. We arrived home at 2. After all, we had been drinking since 12, after spending under ten thousand pounds. When at home, we continued drinking before we fell into a deep, drunken sleep. I woke up at least 11 hours later allowing myself a little lie in because it was Sunday. And I was hungover.
Anyway, in all seriousness though, it was an excellent weekend. I had a really good laugh on Saturday (I really didn't drink that much. Honest!), and it didn't end too late.
I think I've become somewhat of a pioneer. No sooner did my swimming escapades hit this blog, that not one, not two, not even three oh no, four people immediately started swimming (in a pool, not just jumped into the nearest puddle or summit). This beats the previous trend-setting record of 3 people who started programming after I released Penalty Prize (the first one, not the one released this summer). Admittedly it's not quite Mahatma Gandhi levels of pioneer work, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
I've remained in the top 5 reader opinions on The Weblog Review for most of the weekend, beating my previous record of six seconds. A very nice review could soon be the order of the day, n'est pas (ooh top appealing to other cultures)?
Finally, I was intrested (no really, I was) reading the beginnings of a blog by Tom Barton, for the pure and simple reason that he went to the same school as me. Top Eirias posse type situation!
Keep The Faith
Rhys
Like A Phoenix from the Flames
A bitty post, with a little bit of an update so you can quite literally keep abreast of what I am up to.
In town was pretty successful, to further advance "The Project" (mentioned above) I had a very healthy baked potato and beans from Spud-U-Like. Excellentay. I also got another Avril Lavigne poster and more importantly........DOOM! Not just Doom, oh no. Doom, Doom 2 and Final Doom. All together in an orgy of CD-ROM related DOS games type situation.Oh, and for those of you who read the title and thought "Hey Rhys, is that title in any way honour to that ex-Take That bloke from Stoke who has just signed a $80 Million contract dispite his latest album being a bit poo". Well I'll answer "No. Silly.". The title is infact reference to this very weblog which in fact has (for a few hours at least before the critical yanks and the very critical Canadians creep onto the site) creeped back up into a respectable third on The Weblog Review's site. Top self-voting!
And finally, a big slap on the wrists goes to either Blogger or Blogspot for the fact that not only is my site (and a few others) slower than a paraplegic tortoise on 56k, but also the appearance of what could only be described as a pop up ad. Either that, or the Uni is watching me on this site.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
And I don't Want to Miss A Thing
Yesterday was actually quite an important day for everybody on this Earth, yet nobody picked up on it. Y'see, yesterday, for the umpteenth time in the history of this planet, was supposed to be the end of the world.
For all those religious types don't go repenting just yet, as it's now th 25th, and I'm still here.
I remember one time when I was actually scared (and really convinced myself) it was the end of the world. The year is 1998, David Beckham became a national hate figure by booting over some Argentinan bloke, students were given a rough time by introducing tuition fees, and the Spice Girls dominated the charts with their blend of manufactured shenanegans, broken only by Boyzone and Aqua (remember them? I'm sure you don't want to). Anyway, there seemed to be a lot of hoo-haa whereby Nostradamus (some old bloke who predicted so much, that some of them were bound to come true) had predicted that the world was going to end on the upcoming Saturday, in an orgy of fire and blood and shite like that.
There was actually quite a bit of press coverage around that time for some reason, and all that (because you always believe everything you read in the press), along with me being a little depressed at the time, meant that I was seriously worried that Saturday was my last day on this plannet.When Saturday came, I was almost resigned to the fact that the world would end. What to do with my last 24 hours. Firstly, I drew 20 quid out of my account (when you are an unworking individual in full time education, with only £2 pocket money a week, it's a lot) and blew it on a couple of WWF videos. "Over The Edge" and, painfully ironic, "Armageddon". However, unbeleiver Dad hijacked the TV, meaning I was unable to watch the videos (at this time we were poor, had one TV, one video, and lived in a cardboard box). Undaunted, I decided to go with my Mum to the local school's Summer Fayre. I'd love to say I blew all my money fighting little kiddies on the bouncy castle, but I didn't. I just sat there and helped mum rake in the money for the local youth club. At 5 o'clock, we packed up and left for my 'last supper'.
This actually was a pretty good meal, classic Fish and Chips and Peas, so that was pretty cool. Nevertheless, 8 o'clock rolled around, meant that there was just 4 hours left of planet Earth. Everybody who I hung around with went out to (I think) the local astroturf for a kickabout. However, what did I do? I spent twenty quid on two videos! I'll be damned if I didn't get to see them (although, looking at the way I lived my life, if it was the end of the world, I'd probably be damned anyway). So I sat down with a couple of beers and ended up watching about half of one video. I finished the beers off, and in a drunken state I fell to sleep on the couch.
Now, the fact that I'm still here sorta gives a bit of an indication that it wasn't the end of the world, I woke up on sunday by Mum, who had very kindly shifted me off into my proper bed (either that or sleepwalked), and had not very kindly decided to hoover at some ungodly hour in the morning.
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhh" was my rather generic reply.
"What's wrong?" said Mum, oblivious to the 24 hours of utter torture I'd put myself through.
"Drunk too much." I answered. This was the time where my liver was still in it's infancy, and only a couple of cans could test my wellbeing.
"Oh well, it's not the end of the world."
And there you have it, the only time I had actually be frightened that the world was going to end. In heinsight though, I can see (as a predominately scientific individual) that my reasoning behind this 'end of the world' was nonsense. Even when the new milennium, I wasn't at all bothered (as a lot of sane people were convincing themselves that the world was going to end). Never the less, we've got a long time to wait for the next world ending. Apparently note it down in your diaries, as it's sometime in 2450. I can hardly wait.
In other News
If you noticed the distinct lack of swearing in the last post, it's because we have a new reader of this blog (bringing the grand total to err one). My mum! Maybe it is the end of the world.
|EDIT| Added a GeoURL thing to the bottom of the site, but unfortunately I got the latitude and longitute the wrong way round. So instead of saying I was in a North Wales, I said I was somewhere near Nairobi. Oh we're snooker loopy nuts are we.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Going Swimmingly
Since when I was knee high to a grass skirt, I have always shunned exercise. With the exception of Dancing Stage, Snooker and Darts, I have hated all forms of "working out" as it looks more trouble than it's worth. It shows as well, in primary school, people were collecting awards from sporting achievements in the school assembly. Being the arrogent bastard that I am, I was jealous but, being the lazy bastard that I am, I wasn't prepared to do owt about it. The other trade off is that I've got a rather large wasteline. Not massive, and a little unnoticable (due to baggy clothes) but it's there nonetheless. I've always avoided exercise, until now.
Yesterday was the first time I've been swimming since primary school, and the first piece of serious exercise for at least six months (excluding the old snooker and darts). I thought it was time to finally get myself into some sort of respectable shape.
As previously mentioned, the pool is massive. There are three lanes, slow, medium and fast. Despite the fact that I looked like Peter Kay, and noticed the safety risks of all the lifeguards were stationed at the shallow end of a pitiful 0.9 meters, and the fact that half the students in the pool were probably peeing due to the night before's alcohol, I decided to jump in.As it's a massive swimming pool, loads of people use it. One group of people who do are local primary schools, who use it to get their kids upto speed just in case they fall in the Mersey or summit. Anyway, there I was doing length after length with about as much grace as a drowning spider, whereas these kids who probably weren't even born when I started swimming were kicking my proverbial behind after doing length after length.
After two hours of swimming around in circles at a speed that wouldn't make Ian Thorpe loose any sleep, I decided to leave.
Will I do it again? Course I will, the speed and the laughing at by half of Liverpool's under 12 contingent did nothing to hide the fact that it was a good time. However, I'll probably stick to something else, probably ride an exercise bike for a time. The reason's are:-
- They make me sweat (riding them).
- Like everything that is great in this life, I can do it sitting on my arse.
- I can go at my own pace, which is nice, because you could be going slow and people will think "Oh look, there's that Welsh bloke, he's going slow on an exercise bike, he's got it on mountain setting, what a bloke" type situation. It would also be technically correct. It'd be mountain setting, except going downhill.).
Right I'm off, dunno what to do now, just piss about.
Keep the Faith
Rhys*Regular blog reader but hates to admit it Fl*tcher said to me last night "Now, if you write in your blog that you pulled today, then I'm going to do something." I want to see what that is, being the inquizitive little blighter that I am.
We're On Our Way To The Milennium Stadium
Manchester United 3 - 1 Blackburn Rovers. For those of you who didn't see it, Manchester United, with the help of Paul Scholes (2) and R.V.N. Anyway, we're through to the final to meet Liverpool.
To be honest, it'll be a great game, two of the most prestigeous clubs in the country meeting for the world's most un-prestigeous cup competition, in a stadium which is not even in the country of the cup's league. My, the English game is a little fucked.
Predictions for March 2nd (2 days before my 19th! Write it down in your diaries, with a yellow pen, and a blue box around it.)? Well, as far as Liverpool goes, they are struggling for European football after a Bruce and Kieron Dyer season so far. They'll hold back (as usual). Manchester United have nothing to gain except the Worthless Cup. They'll play a very attacking game with R.V.N., Olly, Scholesy and Diego. I can see them sneaking it.
In other News
Due to the catastropic bonding between joining the gym yesterday, and all my lectures have been unfortunately cancelled, I think I may just go swimming for a few hours. I'll grace the poolside with my fat, pale body that is seen nowhere else except, well, wherever you've got a large following of England fans.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Just When I've Bought A Snazzy New Jumper...
Now, one thing that I love about the site is that I distance myself from the news and current affairs. You'll never hear me talk about Iraq, Terrorism and shite like that because, quite frankly, it's a bit boring. However, the British Government anounced that we will have to pay 'top-up' fees to Universities in order to go. Well here's my take on it.
People take money from me. This is bad. I'm unhappy, and when I'm unhappy, I give people Chinese burns.In Much Better News
I have now signed up for a year at the Sports Centre at the University, hopefully to start swimming. Included with my £24 a year signup fee, I also got a free tour of the centre. Included in the sports centre are the following perks and niceities:-
Not sure when I can access it yet, when ever I get put 'on the system' (which sounds a bit dodgy). When I do, it's going to be bye bye to big belly (well, hopefully some of it anyway).
Right, I'm buggering off home. That's your lot today. If you want more of me, well check out here. This is my old blog. Five entries before I got bored. It's stale, it's got a pants layout, it's Livejournal but, what the hell, it's me.
|EDIT| Actually don't bother clicking on that link. It's a bit like one of those tapes of you in the Nactivity play. The more you look at it, the more you cringe. I was young, and I was foolish.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
This is not the greatest blog in the world, NO! This is a tribute
Unlike the fish in the mankey fishmongers on the monday market, I am quite literally gutted at my unbeliably unbelivable lack of inclusion at the "Third Annual Weblog Awards". As far as blogs go (cannot be arsed concentrating on all the catagories), they are all (with the exception of C:/PIRILLO.EXE) a bit pants (they all seem a bit corperate). However, I blame that my lack of inclusion isn't due to lack of votes, oh no. It's politics, yep. Politics.
I see that cheeky little bloke from Star Trek is destinctantly noticable from his absece in the final catagory. Are we maybe seeing a shift in popularity of blogs? Could the big players in the game be falling by the wayside? I don't know, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less.
Finally, Scaryduck wasn't voted. Surely the best blog in Britain be there? Oh well, who am I to judge popular culture. Vote for whoever you want.
In other News
I'd like to welcome back the first week of September back to this site, as it's decided to behave itself and not be more annoying than that advert on TV where that bloke says "NEXT TIME YOUR ROOF LEAKS, DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU!" (caps only present for effect). University life is okay, although I have a distinct ability of waking up at 4am with no prior reason, which is a bit of a bitch.
Those of you who read the last post and thought "Oooh, I wonder what how funny that guy falling over at West Ham was", well, aren't you in for a treat! Yes, curteosy of Sky Sport's Third Eye, there is a video of it right here labelled "Kevin Phillips Falls over whilst training". Don't I treat you so well? Now imagine seeing that live, and it was like Christmas come early.
Finally, I've found the only use of java ever in the world ever here. Who here would love to do that? (raises hand higher than a man pole vaulting on everest). Only problem is I can see myself being a bit pants at it. Even with my first semester of University Java course behind me.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
A First
As a regular blog reader would notice, you have had the honour (or not) of reading firsts (and lasts) that occur for me. You've seen my last day in schooling, my first ever time pulled and first days at university. All those have been proud days, however, last night was a first as well. The first time I've vomitted as a direct result of alcohol.
Now half of you will scream at the sound of this, but I actually don't drink loads. I am quite weak when it comes to alcohol, but last night, I drunk like a thing that drinks a lot. Not beer or lager now, just spirits, Jack Daniels + Coke all night long. I cannot remember much about the actual night, except me re-aquainting myself with my burger and chips lunch, so I cannot really talk about it.
Those of you who don't want me to physically destroy myself via alcohol and food will be pleased to know that I'm heavily considering joining the Liverpool University sports centre. What will I do? I'm probably going to just swim, rather than do any sorts of resistance training (see? I know the lingo. Not just a pretty face me!). The only problam with swimming is that when wearing swimming shorts, I look like Peter Kay in that John Smith's advert*. Yes a pain, but if I didn't, why would I start swimming.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
*For those who don't know, the John Smiths advert goes like this. Canadian bloke with tight trunks does great dive into swimming pool, scores highly. Aussie Bloke does the same. Then Peter Kay (who is a fat funny bloke from Bolton) with fat belly and hawaiian swimming trunks does running bomb into pool, causes massive splash. Gets 10.0 average scores, rises from pool with arms aloft and builders bum. One of the funniest things seen since that time that that bloke ran across the pitch at West Ham, and fell on his arse.
Organised Chaos
Like Anthea Turner before it, my Second Semester timetable is proving to be a bit of a bitch. Not much drop in the amount of lectures I have, and they do seem to be spaced out more (which is a pain, as I have two two hour slots where I have nothing to do). The lectures haven't kicked off yet, just a few introductory courses.
That's if we could find them, that is.
It all seems very last minute, like they took each lecture, wrote it on a piece of paper, stuck it to a dartboard and threw darts at it. Nobody has a clue where to be, and that's just the lecturers. We just seem to be walking around in circles.
Couple that with the fact that we have lectures in the Computer Science block, and that's about a half mile away from our block, and we're going to be a bit scuppered. When we did arrive, we were greeted by this German guy who was grinning with the kind of arrogence we've come to expect from the Germans living in the UK (hey, if you don't believe me, look at Didi Hammann of Liverpool), and sat through a really, really boring Data Structures lecture. It's a wierd sort of lecture. It's like eating with your hands tied behind your back, it's made harder than it actually is. Also, we actually have to take notes in the lecture, rather just getting them on sheets of paper, and underlining the key points. Couple that with my weak wrists, then I'm going to be hurting this semester. I'm so glad I didn't do Computer Science. All in all, I'm a little miserable at the moment, but nothing that a little alcohol and cheesy wotsits wont fix. Roll on Software Development in an hour.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Sticking to the Script
If you would be bothered to read that post that was the size of Wigan, and about as interesting as Wigan, you would notice me talking about Bandwagons, and how with a bit of luck, you can make lots of moolah in short space of time. In any rate, I was thinking that this blog is on the bandwagon of Weblogs.
You see, Blogger recently announced 1 million users. Now, discounting blogs that are no longer updated, but including people hosted on other things like Livejournal, there is quite a lot of people out there who are quite literally writing whatever they feel. With the introduction of templates, people are making all similar blogs. Very few stand out. Those who do, are excellent, and are well known. You've got bloke from Star Trek, Britians Second Best Blog, bloke who appears seemingly on everybody else's blog, bird who writes for that weblog website and bloke who works for the company that makes the blighters . All in all, a mixed bunch. With many blokes, birds and possibly even aliens writing blogs, it can be difficult to stand out. Of course, if you have a little gimmick, it makes it even easier.
Up steps regular reader of this site bloke Max, and not even seen this site, but sure he'll like the traffic generated from this link Chris, what they've done, in a mire of technical experise and some free/expensive/pirated software is digitised they're handwriting into the computer, saved it as a font, and uploaded onto the computer. For thick people, this means is when they write their blog, it's in they're actual writing. I was a little apprehensive, but it is a visual treat. So, why don't I join in?
I don't write much. If I want to write, I use a computer (with the exception of shopping lists, and crap like that). Usually if I write more than a couple of pages, my phenomanally weak wrists for a male who's been through puberty ache like hell. Also, there is one more disconserting fact. The fact that my handwriting is about as legible as a drunk two year old writing on a bus, in the middle of an earthquake:-
Could you imagine this blog written in this scrawl, it'd make even less sense than it does now. Nice try guys, and your blog looks great, but I'll stick to plain old verdana thank you very much.
In other News
Yesterday, I was planning on going back to Liverpool today, however, thanks to a long running punch up between the train drivers and the people who pay their wages, the train drivers are striking. They are running a "Skeleton" (or "We'll be damned if you can actually get anywhere") service. This means that to get to Liverpool I'd need to travel first to Manchester, then back. Also, it's also a bugger trying to get a bus back to my halls, so that my journey will take far to long. Couple that with my lazy boy attitude, I've decided that I cannot be arsed. I (probably) wont miss any lectures, just the D+R pub quiz. F Block will be struggling with the only person with any grasp of sciences missing from the team.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Hopping on the Bandwagons...
WARNING: There are a few links to some of US's Big Businesses. If you are from some Arab nation, or one of those people who just loves Linux, you may like to skip this post. Likewise if you think I'm fantastic, and not a geek at all, as this may destroy your myth. Ta.
Bandwagons are incredibly fickle things, and are seemingly around to lure me on, then the second I do, I either join it too late, or far too early (almost to the point that it doesn't take off). You need luck in this game so that you join a movement as it's just about to explode into mainstream media situation, then leave just as it's about to die, so you are remembered for it.
For example: Look at Steve Moraff. The year is 1995. Musically, a war was fought between the Spice Girls manufactured pop and hardcore Brit Rock from the likes of Oasis and The Priogedy, the war in the former Yugoslavia was just kicking off, and the single biggest reason for William H. Gates III to print money* is released on the world stage. The unsuprisingly titled Microsoft Windows 95. This fact is important, as, with major operating systems, comes majorly operated hype. Although it seems hard to believe today, but Windows 95 revolutioned the world in the way we write documents, play minesweeper, and search for porn.
So where does our cheeky blighter Moraff come in? Well, if you've been down to any Shell Petrol Station and picked up one of those "100 Games for Windows 95", you would be familiar of his work. He releases shareware games that are usually a barrage of multimedia frenzy and end up slowing your computer down to a crawl, before choking up his "Hi. I'm Steve Moraff. Please purchase these games". He was quite good at making copies of Mahjonng (that wierd Chinese tile game that takes ages to set up, which I cannot play for the life of me), that's it. Despite all this, he was very successful.
How? Simply being at the right place, at the right time. Moraff released his first shareware Windows 95-Only disk days before Windows 95 came out, so he got such head start. Soon his software, for lack of better replacements, was all over various "Windows 95 Games" CD's. When mainstream media reared it's ugly head, it saw lots of cheap games, and then the multimedia extravaganza that is Morejohnng. He, with his MIDI Music, 256 Color graphics and lacklusture gameplay impressed millions, he made a bit of cash, just for being at the Multimedia ripple, and riding the whole wave.So why am I telling you this? Well, as previously mentioned, I'm crap at hitting the right time with bandwagons. I've only done it once (with Visual Pinball, where Donkey Kong was featured on some German channel (at it's peak). As for everything else. Quake? Missed it. Blitz? There, but not too big on the scene. Everything else has either been a damp squib, or I've refused to get 'into'. Harry Potter being the prime example for that one.
Anyway I'm pretty sure I've bored you all into a brain haemorrage, so I'll shut up. Like my shirt when it's -20 outside, and I'm drunker than an Irishman, it's just something I want to get off my chest. Plus, next time I stumble into a Moraff game, and Steve comes up on screen with "Hi, I'm Steve Moraff, please purchase these games", I'm not likely to put my foot through the computer scren.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
* I'm quite aware that Windows 3.1 sold more copies than 95, but look at 95 onwards. Every Windows is looked on with baited breath of being the saviour to all computing woes. It never is.
Flickerpiss Breastbum
Oh lordy me. I am literally itching to get programming again in Blitz, as I am chock full to the brim of ideas that I probably have a good bash at making. One which I would love to do is a remake of Sierra's "You Don't Know Jack".
For those of you who have never played it, it is one of those games you either love or hate. Fronted in the UK by Dennis Pennis (although the cheesy US voice in the America's version is infinitely better), it's a gameshow on your computer, where the 'contestants' (you and two mates) battle it out for (fake) cash prizes. It avoids the trap that Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? and The Weakest Link, by being absolutely hilarious. If you like Trivia games, or Monty Python/Fawlty Towers style humour, it's well worth getting.
So anyway, why don't I go back to Blitz? Well, like minded Computer Engineers and programmers will know, it can be a bit of a bugger to get motivated. Being naturally lazier than a tranquilized sloth on his day off, I often have trouble motivating myself to start something new. Knowing that also I will need to motivate myself further after Sunday (as I am going back to university for a few weeks), I'll be a bit scuppered. So, until the day when Fat Rich Bloke can offer me large sums of cash to make fantastic game, I'll be struggling to get anything finished, or indeed started.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Give me...all of the bliss, and joy in the world
I'm fastly considering the unemployment way of living. It's great. Wake up at midday, have brekkie, doss about on the internet for a few hours, tea, TV, and update your blog. Now who wouldn't want that?
Now, for those of you who woke up this morning, read my last post, and thought "Hmmm...I wonder how you pronounce that town name?", well whoopie you! I will attempt to spell it phonetically. But first, a few explinations:-
- When you see "Ll"...it's prounced in a wierd way, that can only be heard. If you can imagine pronouncing "THL", then that's pretty bloody close. But not perfect. Willy Welsh and the Welsh Language Family will laugh you out of Cardiff if he hears you say it, but for a non-suspecting English speaker who, frankly, doesn't know any better, then it's okay.
- "Ch" is also a bit freaky. Imagine a cross between hocking up a greenie, and saying "Loch" (as in "Loch Ness"), and you're there.
Now, the moment you've all been waiting for. The bugger of a town name that was surely made to take the piss, Phonetically!
Welsh: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.
English (wanting to sound Welsh): Thlan-vire-pothl-gwin-gilth-gol-ger-uwch-chwin-drob-width-thlan-tiss-silly-oh-goh-goh-goch.
English (wanting to sound like a twat): Lan-fire-poof-gwin-gith-gol-ger-ich-win-drob-width-lan-tiss-silly-oh-gore-gore-gorch.
Now for those of you who don't understand it, tough. Try the first phonetic first, then the second (it's slightly easier, as all the "Ll"s are replaced with "L"s. However, walk into Wales and start pronouncing "Ll" like "L", and you will get a kicking).
Let me leave you with this thought: Why is "Phonetically" spelt with a "Ph", when it should really be spelt with an "F"?
Keep the Faith
Rhys
A World Record!
I'll sneak this in and give it the coverage it deserves before Punclox includes it in one of it's infamous link lists. Basically, sometime (fairly recently) a company called hv.com set a world record by registering the world's longest domain. The Welsh town, Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.com.
For those of you who don't know LLPG (as it's commonly, and sensibly shortened to) is a town on the Isle Of Anglesey, not a million miles away from yours truly. It's a really nice place. Even though it's not the longest website in the world (some file hosted on Geocities took that), it's the longest domain, and that's what really matters.
So, begs the question, can I say that, being Welsh. Now, behind "Do you shag sheep?", "Can you say that place name?" is probably the most common question I get asked for being Welsh. The answer is, quite simply, yes. It's like riding a bike, you do it in bits, and once you are there, you'll never forget. It gives you something to talk about down the pub (when you are REALLY struggling), and it rolls off the tongue easily, despite what anybody says.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Rhys' sexier, better, but still a bit bitty post
Hello! I'm now experiencing the greatest emotion of them all. Twenty-thousand times better than sex (although I'm a bleeding fine one to talk about that) and ten times greater than winning the FA Cup, it is the most wonderful feeling in the world. It's the feeling that, until Sunday, I don't have to do anything. That's right. I call this emotion "Un-Stressed".....for lack of a better name. However, the true experience of "Unstressed" will undoubtably occur when my wrist will stop aching from the "astronomical for an engineering student that types out all his essays" amount of writing I had to carry out.
No jokes please.
For those of you who cannot be arsed reading the previous post, I had an exam today. While I thought that it would be bitchier than a room full of Jerry Springer guests, it was actually nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. Using every drop of my half-shot glass of Wafflability, I should of done okay. Goodie.
After the exams, I did a bit of retail therapy. After selling a couple of items, I had the most unusual thing for a student, money to burn. Not wanting to experience this for much longer, I plumped a visit to gamestation, where I bought a copy of Tobal #1. Unless you've been reading this site religiously since the mid summer (not many people, that is), you will be unaware of the fact that I love it. The only problems are that nobody else does, as it's very ameteurish in it's look (very unlike Square). However, like Square, it's incredibly deep once you get to grips with it. It's full of chain moves etc., and the quest mode is excellent. As previously mentioned, it's looks like a pile of poo, but it's well worth searching out.
Feeder just seems to be getting better and better. It has been announced that "Semi Alright Band" Hell is for Heroes will be supporting them. This makes a change from the usual bands as, usually, I haven't heard of them. These I have (they headlined Liverpool a few months back) heard of. Top notch support type situation there!
Finally, those of you who are interested, I did get a lemonade. It was 7up. It tasted like crap.
Keep the faith
Rhys
Ramblings
Keep the faith Rhys
"Lying out on a sunbed, glass of lemonade to my left, a beautiful tanned brunette girl in a bikini to the right."
I immediately thought "Hmmmm....I want a glass of lemonade". Top marketing of other people's products!
Keep the faith
Rhys
I have a cunning plan....
I have been thinking a lot within the last 24 hours, mostly during that pants film that I refused to watch last night. It was one of those "Oooh, I've been originally banned, that makes me hard and scary" type situation. "The Burning". In all fairness, it wasn't scary, just sick. In any rate, I didn't watch it, and thought about this site a lot (yes, I am sad, sue me), and mainly about the last post I posted, more specifically the bit right at the end, last few paragraphs.
Then, it struck me. With the Know My Brother Project seemingly run it's course (though it will never die) I needed a new project. A new idea to (hopefully) generate intrest in this small corner of the web. I needed a project.
And so, whilst some poor child actor was getting nicely toasted by some even worst actor stroke pyromaniac, the "Write in if Even Remotely Famous Reader" was born!Introduction:
Right, this is either going to be a resounding success or a dismal failure (and the more I think of it, it's leaning towards the latter), and if you are remotely famous, you E-Mail Me saying who you are. Obviously there's going to be people out there who think they are famous when they are not (like someone who was convinced that he was Ben Affleck, despite looking nothing like him), and I will like to have some proof. Though not essential.
So what qualifies as being famous? Well, anything really. If you had a walk in part in Corrie, write in! If you appeared in panto, write in! If you played footie for East Fife, write in! However, some "celebrities" will get more kudos than others. You cannot compare the legend formally known as Timmy Mallett with someone like Jamie Congleton, former Colwyn Bay player who was shite. Currently, there is no way to separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff, but there's nothing we can do about it.
Also, nobody write in saying they are Issac Newton. Cos he's dead.
Keep The Faith
Rhys
I don't want to drag you down, hold you down, because you're a friend
I guess I should mention this, as this gives me something remotely interesting to talk about. February. Thursday 27. Team Wynne, along with my brother, will be going to see the great "Feeder". And I cannot fucking wait.
For One True Voice fans, Feeder are a great practitioner in Indie (or, as Team Wynne would say, good) music. I hope they play a lot of their old stuff, but to be honest, I wouldn't care if it's just the new album. They're great, I'm going, you're jealous!
Team Wynne's brace is currently getting better! I'm still having trouble eating (especially apples, being my current bane) and it still tingles (IT TASTES FUNNY MAM!!! IT REALLY DOES!!) but it doesn't feel like I've given a blowjob to a mountain bike, and had brake cables caught in my teeth.After nearly half a week since first placed the link about the weblog awards, I've finally made my choice. So who did I vote for? Not telling. Here's a clue: it's not that bloke from Star Trek, that's for bloody sure. Despite being the only person in the known blogging universe not to vote for him. Does that make me a pioneer? Yes. Does that make me controversial? Of course. Does it really make any difference? Absolutely not.
Am I bitter? Only time will tell...
|EDITED BIT THAT WAS ADDED ON| Special Congratulations, as he reads this site (I think). Imperial Doughnut, he may not know yet, but there is a (fairly) lengthly piece on it in the latest edition of Web User. Top mainstream media penetration type situation.
Keep the faith
Rhys
Cue Manical Laughter Type Situtation
Every day, somewhere located in the mire of Nigeria Scams, useful e-mails, eirias e-mails, goldfish sex and people selling me crap, there my Daily Comics. Horror of horror, these are actually mailing lists that I actually like being on, as they are usually hillarious. Todays was by far the best ever.
Just thought I'd share that with you all.
Keep the Faith.
Rhys
Scruitiny (Random Thoughts) Keep the faith Rhys
Keep the faith
Rhys
I'm back...and I'm better than ever
Hello everybody. Yes I'm back (not like most of you noticed, or indeed cared) from my absence. So. Where was I? Well, for most of the last week, and indeed technically 2003, I was tucked up in bed in a bad way. When I say "In a bad way" I don't mean "In a bad way, good way" as in hungover or experiencing the kind of orgies that'd put the Romans to shame. Oh no. I'm talking about "in a bad way, bad way", as in a very tempremental stomach (and not as a result of any Indian cuisine, I wouldn't touch the stuff). The good news is now my brace is not bothering me at all (still feels wierd it being there, but beggars cannot be choosers eh?) and I have had plenty of sleep. So I should be ready to rain down my dry sarcastic "wit" (hey, someone else's words, not mine) on the world again.
No. Well. Not for a few days at least. You see, today, indeed as I write this, I am litterally 15 minutes away from beginning a journey that'll take me back to university. There won't be no sob story like last time, but nevertheless, due to lack of internet connection, dodgy version of Frontpage and the reliability of floppy disks akin to David Seaman's saving skills, the chances of me updating over the next few days is a bit hit and miss. Sorry chaps!
Also, I kinda have important exams coming up soon (starting tomorrow in fact). Due to the fact that I have actually done very little revision so far in the subject means I could be in trouble. However, I'm not too heartstoppingly worried, as I think I've got the basic jist of the subject first time around. All in all is that this blog, for the time being, is not my most pressured concern.
Also finally, the weblogs of the year awards are beginning. Despite the fact that the calander year is only 7 days old, someone had the bright idea of starting an awards ceremony. Being the egomaniac that I am. I am encouraging all of you who visit this site to vote for it. Otherwise I'll beat you with a stick.
Keep the faith
Rhys
Help Needed
Six months ago, my hard drive grinded to an unrecovering halt, costing me just over a years worth of
porn important data. Unfortunately, in this digital equivalent of the bastard child of nuclear holocaust and a big foot standing on London, I lost all my Visual Pinball tables. Sure, some of them are easy to find (Donkey Kong is really easy to find, and a few more are on this site). However, despite searching on all major search engines, and looking through countless forums, fansites and download sites, one table remains lost for all eternity.
Sporting Champs.I've tried searching for it online, but no luck. Nothing. Not one iota. To be honest, I can understand why, it was a dire first attempt at a difficult medium. I well and truly crashed and burned, and nobodys now got a copy of it. However, in my opinion, it's an unloved child. Only I can see it's beauty for what it is. I've only had one voice of compliment for it, and even then it was slightly sarcastic. Still, it's gone. Lost for all eternity.
To be honest it's a damn shame. It's very very frustrating working towards something, then releasing it into the public domain, only for a couple of errors, which cannot be avoided, causing the whole shebang to crash down, losing something I've worked hard at, forever.
Anyway, this is where you come in
Should anybody have a copy of this table, please e-mail me with the link to it, or let me know so I can get it.
Thanks in advance
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Brace Yourself!
I have had a number of IM's and e-mails (What? Zero is a number!) asking me about my dental operation. Well, it went well overall. I was quite suprised by it. TV and Movie Dentists always seem to be psychotic when it comes to taking teeth out, and when they out, they hold it proudly aloft over their heads. Mine wasn't. He just calmly got on with it, and the tooth just popped out, and rolled somewhere on the floor. There was only one problem with the whole thing, the brace.
Normally, I don't mind pain. I've had no fractures, no breakages, only bruises and sprains. I'm not too bothered, and don't complain much. However, the first few hours when I wore my brace were hell on earth. While the pain has now eased, it's still uncomfortable, especially when I put it on/take it off and when I'm eating. It sort of put a damper on my New Years Eve celebrations as well.
Oh well, I suppose it'll be worth it.
Keep the Faith
Rhys
Awards for 2002
Happy New Year everybody! We've made it through! (actually, come to think of it, I cannot remember a new years like the one just passed whereby religious nuts haven't forseen 'the end of the world'. That's nice). I'll post a little bit more later about the night, but first, here are the awards for the year. I've shortened it a bit, and removed a few catagories on the advice that some people actually care about these awards, and labelling them 'Sinner of the year' would likely to get me have my teeth broken. Oh well.
Album of the Year: Avril Lavigne - Let Go
As a big Indie Rock fan, people might question my choice, as it's a hybrid of pop and punk. The fact is that this album is the best album from both genre's in a long, long time. An album for me has to be one where I love as many tracks as possible. As far as this album goes, I love nearly all of them. From the very rocky "Sk8er Boi" to the melanconhic "I'm With You", to the pop-undertones of "Mobile", to the almost metallic "Unwanted, this album deserves a place in any decent music fan's collection. People complain that "Complicated", probably the anthem of teenagers the world over, has been overplayed. The reason it has is that it's bloody fantastic. I find very few people who don't like Avril, and those that do need their ears looking at. She's new, she's gorgeous, she's my age, and she's here to stay.
Runners Up: Coldplay - A Rush of Blood to The Head proves that Coldplay are here now, and they want the world. This came a close second place. Oasis - Heathen Chemistry despite panned for being 'more of the same', it's no big deal when 'the same' is so very, very good. Creed - Weathered is this years sleeper album. Not many people will pick it up, but those who do will be in for a treat. Finally, Feeder - Comfort in Sound proves that a band does continue. After the tragic loss of John Boy from the band, nobody knew where Feeder would go from then. They came and released a very different, but a very enjoyable album.
New People of the Year: F Block + Associates
This is the only personal catagory in this awards batch, as I cannot offend anybody with this. Going to university was hard. It was made harder when, after 8 weeks, I wanted another room, or out of the university. People warned me that this was just part of university life, and wherever you moved, you'd have trouble settling. I moved into F92 on November 5th 2002, not knowing anybody in the block. I was soon put to rest by some of the nicest, down to earth and brilliant people I have met in my entire life. They took me in, and made me feel wanted. They did take the piss out of me, no dobut, but knew when to stop. I can talk to almost everybody in that block about anything. They are brilliant.
Runners Up: R + G Hall's People These helped me out immensly in the first few weeks, and I spent more time in their halls than in mine in the first few weeks. The only reason these finish second is that it's quite a walk to their block. M Block people despite contrary reports, I do have some friends in M Block. These were also very supportive.
Website of the Year: Blitzcoder
Despite being very specialised (you need the software to use this) this website is probably one of the nicest messageboards on the internet. No elitism, no snobbery, and everybody helps everybody else. Should anybody ever get Blitz Basic, then it's the perfect place to start. I was honoured to be voted in the top 30 members earlier this year, despite not actually helping much with the programming side of things. Also special note to the moderators, who are fantastic.
Runners Up: Mainly consisting of blogs Scaryduck for being absolutely the most constant funniest read I have ever come across. Imperial Doughnut for an almost an encyclopedic knowledge on video games (only matched by own), cartoons, and urinals (no shit). Darkside / Lightside. I actually have no idea why I like this site, I just enjoy reading about him. WWE.com for being a massive WWE fan's only free source of WWE video since ITV Digital went bust. And finally, This site, just because it was written by me.
Okay, that's it. I cannot be bothered to do any more.
Keep the Faith
Rhys |
The Carbon Brief, an advocacy site funded by the European Climate Foundation, as part of the ongoing whitewashing of IPCC’S deceptive press release on renewables, today purported to blame journalists for being tricked by the IPCC press release, stating:
Journalists were also under no obligation to adopt the framing of the IPCC’s press release. The media’s practices – including constraints on journalists’ time – must therefore be held partially responsible for presenting the misleading impressions identified above.
Elsewhere in their article, the Carbon Brief attempts a limited hangout, conceding a few small points. Although the IPCC handling of the Greenpeace scenario was presented at Climate Audit, in keeping with standard Team practice, they do not cite Climate Audit, referring, if necessary, vaguely to “critics”. Nor do they rebut the criticisms as expressed here. Nor did they even fully quote the critical part of the press release.
The Deceptive IPCC Press Release
For reference, the deceptive IPCC press release of May 9, 2011 announced:
Close to 80 percent of the world‘s energy supply could be met by renewables by mid-century if backed by the right enabling public policies a new report shows.
This claim was widely disseminated internationally – BBC and the Guardian, for example, but there are dozens, if not hundreds, of citations.
The news here was the IPCC endorsement. Greenpeace itself had previously asserted (in equivalent words) that “close to 80 percent of the world‘s energy supply could be met by renewables by mid-century if backed by the right enabling public policies”. Not to be outdone, WWF had even claimed 100%.
IPCC’s apparent endorsement of what had previously seemed like grandiose and probably fanciful projections by activist NGOs transformed the situation and was the news. Certainly, BBC (and many others) thought so, with the BBC, a typical example as follows:
Renewables can fuel society, say world climate advisers…
Renewable technologies could supply 80% of the world’s energy needs by mid-century, says the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
The problems, as reported here, a few days ago, included the fact that the highlighted scenario originated from Greenpeace, a Greenpeace employee was one of the lead authors responsible for assessing the scenario. But perhaps most frustrating is that IPCC itself doesn’t appear to have done ANY due diligence on this or any other scenario.
Ottmar Edenhofer, a WG3 co-chair who was much in evidence at Abu Dhabi and who approved the press release, admitted IPCC’s failure to do any relevant due diligence to Oliver Morton of The Economist, with Morton noting a sort of wistful regret on Edenhofer’s part that he couldn’t require the Lead Authors of chapter 10 to carry out the analyses that the public actually wanted and expected. From Morton’s blog:. [my bold]
The Carbon Brief Whitewash Attempt
The Carbon Brief here refers to the offending press release, but resolutely refused to quote the lead paragraph of the press release in full (carrying only the first part.)
They open with a summary of criticisms, referring to Mark Lynas’ characterization (without naming him), but do name various MSM stories (without linking them). They observe:
Some of the criticisms that have been made of the IPCC do not stand up to scrutiny. However, some of the points that have been made are reasonable, and are worth discussing
CA readers are familiar with the all-too-common practice of climate academics (and activists) not to quote actual criticisms and instead re-frame them, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so.
My biggest complaint about the lead paragraph of the IPCC press release is that, not to put too fine a point on it, it is untrue and misleading. The IPCC report didn’t show that “close to 80 percent of the world‘s energy supply could be met by renewables by mid-century if backed by the right enabling public policies”. Even if this claim were true (as Stephan Singer of WWF has argued in subsequent controversy), it isn’t shown within the four corners of the IPCC document, which, at most, catalogued the Greenpeace scenario and didn’t establish its feasibility with or without public policy.
Instead of squarely confronting the deceptive IPCC lead, the Carbon Brief framed the problem as follows:
The IPCC’s press release gave undue weight and prominence to one particularly optimistic scenario.
They pretty much concede the legitimacy of this framing. In doing so, they usefully point out the Dutch government’s report on WG2 , which had recommended that IPCC stop issuing one-sided summaries. Yet another recommendation flouted by IPCC.
Next they parse the following issue – again carefully re-framed/
The use of the word “could” in the IPCC’s press release was potentially ambiguous, and likely to mislead
Their analysis is the sort of Nick Stokes wordsmithing that we’ve all come to expect from the climate community to avoid conceding the obvious:
It is clear that the IPCC’s projections in its report are framed by a range of uncertainties, including those surrounding technological development and future costs of renewable energy. Given.
Watch the pea here. The.
The next claim that they considered was that:
The reduction in overall energy consumption assumed in the headline scenario is not noted in the press release – which may give a misleading impression.
This wasn’t an issue that I’d raised (it was raised by Mark Lynas and Oliver Morton) and I’m not going to consider it in this brief review.
Next, they consider:
The study on which the headline scenario is based – while originally formulated in a Greenpeace report – was published in a peer-reviewed journal
This is true, but doesn’t rebut any point that I made. I clearly noted that the Greenpeace scenario had been published as Teske et al 2010 in an academic journal (while noting that it drew heavily on a companion Greenpeace glossy.) I, for one, have consistently taken the position that peer review for academic literature can be cursory or puffball (unless of course it criticizes the Team in which case a gauntlet must be run). That the Greenpeace scenario was published in an academic journal is not a warranty that it is actually a feasible scenario.
They say:
The Greenpeace report’s lead author was not “the” lead author of the chapter in question, nor a lead author of the report as a whole.
Again, this is true , but doesn’t rebut any actual points made at Climate Audit, where I had listed all the lead authors of chapter 10. Yes, there were other Lead Authors of chapter 10, but that doesn’t eliminate the conflict of interest. Did Teske’s participation as a Lead Author influence the unfortunate decision in chapter 10 to feature the Greenpeace scenario? Did it contribute to the decision not to cross-examine the scenarios for feasibility – an oversight seemingly regretted even by WG3 Co-Chair Edenhofer? Personally I can’t help but think that Teske’s acting as Lead Author did contribute to the prominence of the Greenpeace scenario in chapter 10. I don’t know this, but I think it. This is one of the reasons for a Conflict of Interest policy in the preamble to the Conflict of Interest policy passed at the recent plenary – a policy that Pachauri says will not be enforced in AR5.
Defenders say that other Lead Authors, besides Teske, were responsible for “assessing” the Greenpeace scenario: “while the IPCC works from published cases, the scenarios are evaluated and assessed by a team”. But unfortunately, as more or less conceded even by Edenhofer, none of them actually “assessed” the feasibility of the Greenpeace scenario – that’s the problem – and, as a result, it remained unassessed.
Next, they argue:
There is no evidence that either Teske or Greenpeace had any influence over the Summary for Policymakers of the report, or the press release.
A couple of points here. WG3 say that Teske or Greenpeace wasn’t involved in the press release. Teske was in Abu Dhabi on May 9 and issued a press release for Greenpeace on May 9. Teske was definitely very up-to-date. None of us has access to IPCC documents and IPCC is not subject to FOI legislation. As a result, there is presently “no evidence” to contradict WG3′s assertions on this point. That doesn’t mean that their assertions are false – only that the only evidence on the matter is their assertions.
In commentary at Climate Audit, I did not make assertions on Teske’s role in the press release (though I was interested in getting information on it.)
At the end of the day, the lead of the press release was untrue and misleading. It’s interesting to know whether Teske was involved, but it hardly matters. The press release was approved by Ottmar Edenhofer and WG3. They’re the ones who should be questioned on their responsibility for the untrue statements.
They continue:
The press release contains a range of caveats – and when read in full, the meaning and context of its headline conclusions are made mostly unambiguous. The inclusion of energy consumption as a variable factor in scenarios is also noted.
Here we get into more Stokesian wordsmithing. Yes, it is correct that deep in the May 9 press release, other scenarios are reported, disclosing that the other scenarios are not as “optimistic” as the lead. The Carbon Brief observe that “the headline scenario is clearly identified as “[t]he upper end of the scenarios assessed”"
This is true enough. However, the later glosses do not undo the lead. The lead clearly states that the new IPCC study “shows” that this “optimistic” scenario can be reached given appropriate public policy. Yes, other scenarios are listed later in the press release, but this does not undo the untrue and misleading assertion in IPCC’s lead.
Then we get to the remarkable ending, where the Carbon Brief attempt to transfer blame for the many news stories reporting the IPCC lead on the reporters:.
Their one concession is to allocate a very small blame to IPCC:
Nevertheless, if the IPCC’s press team were aware that for whatever reason good journalistic practice is often not followed – as seems likely – they too should be held responsible for conveying potentially misleading impressions of the report.
Let’s be clear on one important point here. Edenhofer confirmed by email that he, other WG3 co-chairs and the IPCC TSU had all approved the press release. This wasn’t a free lance effort by Nick Nuttall and IPCC press officers.
In passing, the Carbon Brief says about themselves:
Carbon Brief’s Director, Tom Brookes, is director of the Energy Strategy Centre (ESC) the communications unit funded by the European Climate Foundation (ECF). Editor Christian Hunt has worked as a researcher and web editor for Greenpeace and the Public Interest Research Centre.
29 Comments
Blame journalists for being lazy? Surely anyone who’s ever had to write a press release knows that its basic to get the ‘story’ across in the first 15-50 words, just because journalists are lazy (or very busy, if you prefer). So if journalists are presenting this as an IPCC claim, then that’s just what the IPCC press release writer expected and wanted them to do. So for Carbon Brief, itself familiar with the world of PR, to imply that journalists have made a bit of a mistake here, is, perhaps, disingenuous.
The press clearly haven’t learned anything. In the UK, in the run-up to the Iraq debacle, the press headlined the “45 minute WMD readiness” claim in a government paper. The government knew the reporting was inaccurate but it was the journalists’s fault; it just happened to be convenient to let it go.
Steve:
Your description of the statements from The Carbon Brief reminds me of a joke told to me by someone who experienced the Stalinist USSR.
Apparently at that time Radio Kiev was noted for its propaganda. The joke: On one of their broadcasts the announcer says,”There is a story going round that State Factory X has given all its workers automobiles. This is true, but not quite. The objects involved were not automobiles, they were bicycles.
This is true, but not quite; the bicycles were not given, they were taken away.”
“Stokesian wordsmithing”
a phrase I will remember.
Or the simpler verb form — to Stokanize.
Yet again the innocent irony of all those NGOs with the words “Public Interest” somewhere in their titles.
Carbon Brief will have be careful , their friendly and compliant press buddies will not stay that way for long if their made the scape goat of IPCC malpractice to much and if they turn all hell breaks lose on the PR front.
Hope you don’t mind me popping a bit more background in about the Carbon Brief….
Mckitrick, Lindzen – the Carbon Brief Exxon Smear…
And I hope you don’t mind if I pop in with regard to Mr Woods’ “Exxon” note. In my American Thinker article, I detail two IPCC participants who have also been part of the long-term fossil fuel funding smear of skeptic scientists – please see: “There is a Cancer Growing on the IPCC and Al Gore”
Thanks, Steve.
This comes perilously close to the Animal House defence, doesn’t it?
Why do some of these organizations think its special to somehow claim the ‘possibility’ of 100% renewables on an ‘if’ scenario regarding bending global public policy to an infinite effort?
We ‘could’ colonize Mars by 20xx, ‘if’ only we had the right political will.
We ‘could’ make all air travel free for anyone who gets a seat ‘if’ only we had the right political will…
Given militarized controls on energy consumption and a reduction of the Global Population by 1/3 (lottery of course), we could cover the full range of (a newly defined) global energy demand with ONLY Solar power by 2050, “If” we only had the right political will (to agree to the restrictions and population reductions while mobilizing the worlds economic output wholly in Solar power deployment without any NIMBY due process, etc. etc.)
Lickity-Split … there’s a scenario that works too (because if the solar power output goes down, we force a reduction in demand…ergo, ‘supply’ meets ‘demand’ 100%)
Feasibility analysis? Why bother? It’s clear it’s just a matter of will.
.”
I have just posted this on the Economist website. I think it is relevant here too.
“Assuming that the report is merely a repetition of the Greenpeace report for America, which I have studied carefully, it will have the same major error.
Renewable energy is intermittent, unpredictable and is often available when it is not needed and not available when it is needed. In the case of solar power, in many cases it is needed in the evening/night in the middle of winter and it is most available in the middle of summer. Wind quite often blows for a few days and then there is a calm for a week. New Zealand relies largely on hydropower and the wind blows strongest in the springtime when the snow is melting and it is raining and blows least in the autumn when it is dry and the electricity demand is increasing rapidly.
There is no technology available–or even on the horizon–that will provide efficient and low cost energy storage for periods of days, weeks or months. Until such technology is discovered–and I doubt if it ever will be–renewable energy can only provide a small part of our energy needs. As long as it is small scale, storage can be substituted for by using inefficient and expensive open cycle gas turbines to start up every time the wind drops or the sun goes behind a cloud. Not very sensible and very expensive. (I’m a hydropower engineer and I am very aware of the advantages and limitations of pumped storage. Most pumped storage stations have 6 to 10 hours storage.)
How was that all of the “expert reviewers” did not pick up this simple fact? How is it that the economics does not allow for the extra capacity and cost of storage?
And in any case, pumped storage energy’s not free – just based on the differential between min/max tariffs.
So the editor of the website carbonbrief.org, Christian Hunt, is a former web editor for Greenpeace?
Amazing. Steve unearths yet another salient fact.
“None of us has access to IPCC documents and IPCC is not subject to FOI legislation.” OUCH! Of course this has come up here at CA before, but for some reason or other this time it hits me mighty hard. Yep, this is the state of things at this organization supposedly totally committed to “openness and transparency”. What’s so hilarious (I wish) is that this IPCC “openness and transparency” is straight out of Orwell’s “Nineteen Eighty-four” newspeak–you know, where the words mean exactly the opposite of their original/actual meanings. Will Mr. Pachauri please explain why the IPCC chooses/refuses to instigate an FOI policy for itself?
The IPCC’s press release gave undue weight and prominence to one particularly optimistic scenario.
Optimistic?!?! The only way to get to 77% renewable energy is to limit total energy to such a draconian level there will be a huge body count and “Them that died were the lucky ones.”
I see that the Carbon Brief claims that Ross McKitrick is linked to Exxon Mobil. See
where it states “Ross McKitrick is a senior fellow at the Exxon funded Fraser institute”.
Using this argument, then Michael Mann is also linked to Exxon since the oil giant has donated to Penn State:
Steve,
‘The.’
I think this is the crux of the whole issue and I’m not sure I understand your take on it. For me the second part of the sentence is the qualifier which makes it clear that technical potential is not the issue.
From my reading Chapter 10 of the report the whole point was to determine potential *uptake* of renewables given a range of energy policy scenarios, including ‘baseline’ control scenarios without specific policy initiatives, so ‘if backed by the right enabling public policies’ is an attempt to clarify that the ’80%’ figure is about policy rather than technical capability.
Logically, talking about technical capability doesn’t make much sense in this context. It would technically be possible to move to a 100% renewable power supply tomorrow – just shut down coal, gas and oil power plants and ban most forms of transportation. It would be economically and politically disastrous, but it would make 100% renewable power a technical reality.
Oh, please. Do you really believe the press release was distributed with that tortured interpretation in mind? You disprove yourself in making your own argument. If the release was speaking to “policy”-based possibilities, then why not use your %100 scenario? Why need a “study” at all?
According to American Wind Energy Association, there IS a 100% (or maybe more than 100%) scenario in the report:
“100 Percent Renewables: The Resources are There, Says UN Report.”
“Among the report’s points of emphasis: wind power alone is capable of supplying more than 100 percent of future demand.”
They should be careful blaming the journalists, who may be more careful in future. This would not suit the needs of the IPCC to have compliant journos.
Exactly. This shows they know they’re losing it. Fred Pearce is an example of a journalist who (as I remember it) got fed up of such criticism. Before that there was Nigel Calder. It’s a bad move.
AS if in response Leo Hickman goes irenic, as reported by Bishop Hill:
OT
“The press release contains a range of caveats…”
Pigs could fly if they had the right kind of wings.
In other words, nobody is willing to stand behind the validity of anything written in the press release. If nobody is willing to actually stand behind anything the press release says, then the press release and report itself is meaningless -its just a string of words that may or may not mean something.
Who’s paying these guys to publish stuff they admit may or may not mean anything???
The Carbon Brief doesn’t seem to be worth much of an effort. They received one comment on their article and that was from me, in opposition to their position.
Steve did you see a reference to you and this article in this weeks Economist? ( “A climate of conflict”)Ever so slightly I detect a shift by the Economist towards a more critical stance.
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Citations with the tag: STUDENTS -- Rating of
Results 1 - 50
- BUG roll supplements honor roll, recognizes students'...
// Curriculum Review; Apr92, Vol. 31 Issue 8, p15
Presents information about the Bringing Up Grades (BUG) roll, the reward of the students who are not included in the honor list. How the students learn the qualified students for the award; Why the teachers at Byford Elementary School in Chicago like the activity; Other recognitions rendered by...
- The Effect of Random and Sequential Versions on Student Test Performance.
Picou, Armand; Milhomme, Albert J. // Financial Practice & Education; Spring/Summer97, Vol. 7 Issue 1, p85
Evaluates the effect of random and logically ordered test forms on test scores of students. Computer test banks (CTBs), use for test preparation; Features of CTB; Literature review of the study; Data and methodologies used; Results of the study; Conclusions.
- Problems and progress in appraising student performance.
Sarcella, Joseph A.; Foster, Patrick N. // Tech Directions; May95, Vol. 54 Issue 10, p57
Explores important aspects of appraising student performance. Concept of performance appraisal; Relation of performance appraisal techniques to the current climate in education and in industry; Problems of evaluating performance; Variables that can hinder an educator's objectivity.
- The US.
Hanson, Cynthia; Zipp, Yvonne // Christian Science Monitor; 8/14/96, Vol. 88 Issue 182, p2
No abstract available.
- Vt. to combine standardized tests with portfolios.
Manzo, Kathleen Kenned // Education Week; 12/04/96, Vol. 16 Issue 14, p3
Reports that the Vermont state school board has approved combining its voluntary portfolio-assessment program with mandatory standardized tests to determine how well students stack up against the states' academic standards. Creation or purchase of tests to implement the plan; Information...
- State board's leaders call for assessments bearing consequences.
Lawton, Millicent // Education Week; 10/22/97, Vol. 17 Issue 8, p7
Reports that state student performance assessments should have consequences for the students who take them and the schools that give them in the United States, according to a report from state education leaders. Need for states to use several tests to measure learning; Ideal characteristics of...
- THE WALL CHART AND THE BUSINESS OF EDUCATION.
Vassallo, P. // ETC: A Review of General Semantics; Summer91, Vol. 48 Issue 2, p161
Comments on the meaningless statistical analysis of the American education system and the wall chart of the Department of Education which tells the country how children are doing in school. The attempt to decipher Education Secretary Lauro F. Cavazos' speech; Semanticists view of the wall chart...
- Weak measurement serving presumptive policy.
Jaeger, Richard M. // Phi Delta Kappan; Oct92, Vol. 74 Issue 2, p118
Presents data which support conclusions predicting between-nation variation in math and science test scores. Economic factors coupled with family structure and stability; Classroom instructional variables predict trivial portions; Discussion of the data; More.
- Assessment reform.
Kane, Michael B.; Khattri, Nidhi // Phi Delta Kappan; Sep95, Vol. 77 Issue 1, p30
Presents an overview of performance-based assessments in evaluating student achievement in the United States. Assessment as a lever for reform; Elements of performance assessments; Factors influencing development and implementation.
- Classes of dropouts.
Tice, T.N. // Education Digest; Jan1992, Vol. 57 Issue 5, p41
Reveals that using relevant research, Calvin L. Streeter and Cynthia Franklin offer `Psychological and Family Differences Between Middle Class and Low Income Dropouts: A Discriminant Analysis' in the April/May 1991 `High School Journal' (vol. 74,no. 4), 211-19. What mostly white middle-class...
- Pinpointing the failures in American education.
Hodgkinson, H. // Education Digest; Feb1992, Vol. 57 Issue 6, p37
Discusses the misconceptions about American education that resurfaced after the College Board released a statement indicating that scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) had declined by two points in math and verbal areas. Data supporting contention vague; 32 states improved SAT...
- Are students today less informed...?
Relin, D.O. // Scholastic Update; 11/6/87, Vol. 120 Issue 5, p8
A collection of critics say today's students don't measure up to students in the past. Other education experts say every generation of students has its critics. This generation is no worse, they argue, and maybe even better.
- How performance assessments affect teaching and learning.
Khattri, Nidhi; Kane, Michael B. // Educational Leadership; Nov95, Vol. 53 Issue 3, p80
Presents an overview of the research `Studies of Education Reform: Assessment of Student Performance.' Impact of performance assessment on teaching and learning; Functions of performance assessments; Facilitation of changes in teaching roles; Importance of professional development and assistance.
- The power of portfolios.
Herbert, Elizabeth A.; Schultz, Laurie // Educational Leadership; Apr96, Vol. 53 Issue 7, p70
Focuses on the use of portfolios in student assessment. Portfolio presentations; Reaction to children's cues; Uniqueness of portfolios.
- What happens between assessments?
McTighe, Jay // Educational Leadership; Dec96/Jan97, Vol. 54 Issue 4, p6
Proposes seven principles for performance assessment in schools. Establishment of clear performance targets; Emphasis on authenticity in products and performances; Publication of criteria and performance standards; Use of models of excellence; Explicit teaching of strategies; Use of ongoing...
- Understanding rubrics.
Goodrich, Heidi // Educational Leadership; Dec96/Jan97, Vol. 54 Issue 4, p14
Focuses on the use of rubrics to assess student performance. Development of criteria for describing student achievement; Reasons behind the appeal of rubrics to both teachers and students; Design process for rubrics.
- Practicing what we preach in designing authentic assessments.
Wiggins, Grant // Educational Leadership; Dec96/Jan97, Vol. 54 Issue 4, p18
Discusses the importance of using standards and peer review in designing credible tasks and assessments for student performance. Standard-based versus process-based reform work; Assessment design standards; Anticipation of key design difficulties; Peer review; Assessment system criteria;...
- Mileposts on the road to a Certificate of Initial Mastery.
Smith, Ron; Sherrell, Steve // Educational Leadership; Dec96/Jan97, Vol. 54 Issue 4, p46
Describes the experience of the Lake Oswego school district in Oregon in implementing a performance-based student certification program based on the Certificate of Initial Mastery (CIM). Validation of a student's ability to apply what he had learned in several disciplines to a variety of...
- Barriers to learning.
Smith, Ron; Sherrell, Steve // NEA Today; Dec92, Vol. 11 Issue 5, p28
Examines the results of a recent Metropolitan Life Insurance poll that said that many students are unprepared for learning at their grade level. Problems making it difficult for children to be good students; Lack of parental support; Poverty, poor nutrition, violence in schools, physical or...
- States are setting assessment agenda.
Smith, Ron; Sherrell, Steve // NEA Today; Apr94, Vol. 12 Issue 8, p33
Discusses the report `Surveying the Landscape of State Educational Assessment Programs,' issued by the National Education Association (NEA) and the Council for Educational Development and Research (CEDaR). State assessment of students' progress; Systematic school reform; Interviews with state...
- Reading buddies: A first-grade intervention program.
Caserta-Henry, Carol // Reading Teacher; Mar96, Vol. 49 Issue 6, p500
Reports on the introduction of a reading program designed for first graders. Details on planning activities; Details on specific months; Details on spelling assessment of 16 students.
- Are your students learning what you think your teaching?
Beale, Andrew V. // Adult Learning; Jan/Feb93, Vol. 4 Issue 3, p18
Discusses the importance of assessing student's abilities and skills in applying what they have learned in practical, realistic situations. Improvement of instructional practices at the program and classrooms levels; Questions involved in the teaching process; Approaches to student evaluating...
- What makes a successful mature student?
Gammon, Mary // Adult Learning; Mar/Apr97, Vol. 8 Issue 4, p30
Discusses what makes mature students successful in their area of study with a focus on a character Ann. Problems encountered by Ann in meeting her educational goals; Reasons expressed for the failure of mature students.
- Why Asian students still outdistance Americans.
Stevenson, Harold W. // Educational Leadership; Feb1993, Vol. 50 Issue 5, p63
Examines the reasons why American students lag behind Asians in academic performance. Reason for discrepancy in standards; Recommendations.
- American students hold their own.
Bracey, Gerald W. // Educational Leadership; Feb1993, Vol. 50 Issue 5, p66
Disagrees with the conclusions of Harold Stevenson in his article `Why Asian Students Still Outdistance Americans,' cited in the Educational Leadership journal, volume 50, number 5, pages 63-65. Comparison of noncomparable groups; Interpretation of researches; Significance of higher standards...
- Bracey's broadsides are unfounded.
Stevenson, Harold W. // Educational Leadership; Feb1993, Vol. 50 Issue 5, p68
Refutes Gerald Bracey's comments against the author's article `Why Asian Students Still Outdistance Americans' cited in the Educational Leadership journal, volume 50, number 5, pages 63-65. Errors of fact and interpretation made by Bracey.
- What's worth an `A'? Setting standards together.
Sperling, Doris // Educational Leadership; Feb1993, Vol. 50 Issue 5, p73
Illustrates the improvement in student performance when students are asked to help develop the standards upon which they are rated. Case of a fourth-grade writing class in Ann Arbor, Michigan; Extent of student participation; Evaluation of performance; Assessment forms adjustment; Collaborative...
- Identifying high risk children transferring into elementary schools.
Jason, Leonard A.; Filippelli, Laura // Education; Winter92, Vol. 113 Issue 2, p325
Presents a study of high-risk transfer students and their academic performance following transfer to new schools. School mobility and multiple psychopathological disorders; Identifying students with increased risk of becoming disorganized and demoralized; Questionnaires for parents; Assessing...
- Education.
Jason, Leonard A.; Filippelli, Laura // Youth Studies Australia; Autumn1993, Vol. 12 Issue 1, p7
States that a higher number of A+ and B+ grades were awarded in 1993 to secondary VCE students than under the HSC system in Victoria, as reported in the December 21, 1992 issue of `Herald Sun.' Points needed to get into preferred university courses.
- Brown, Rowan celebrate new rating.
Jason, Leonard A.; Filippelli, Laura // Jackson Advocate; 12/9/2010, Vol. 73 Issue 8, p9A
The article reports on the achievement of the students from Brown Elementary and Rowan Middle School in the MCT2 test in Mississippi.
- WHS releases honor roll list.
Jason, Leonard A.; Filippelli, Laura // Lakelander (Whitney, TX); 1/30/2008, Vol. 22 Issue 5, p13
The article presents the honor roll list of students at the Whitney High School in Texas.
- Mathematics and physical education: Providing opportunities for interactions in the middle school.
Strickland Jr., James F.; Kuykendoll, N. Jane // Education; Fall/Winter92, Vol. 113 Issue 1, p93
Describes three sample activities that enable middle school students to observe the interaction of mathematics and physical education. Observing interaction of mathematics with other school subjects and with everyday society; Using the Physical Best Mile Run/Walk; The target heart range; The...
- The longitudinal effects of nonpromotion in junior high school on academic achievement and...
Strickland Jr., James F.; Kuykendoll, N. Jane // Education; Fall/Winter92, Vol. 113 Issue 1, p112
Evaluates the long term effectiveness of grade retention and promotion for portions of a sample of seventh and eighth grade students. Data over four year period while students attended junior and senior high school; Results and discussion; More.
- Effective rubric design.
Jensen, Ken // Science Teacher; May95, Vol. 62 Issue 5, p34
Presents examples of one rubric style and different ways that rubrics can be used to assess student performance. Assessments; Rubric grading; Energy transformation assessment; Phase change assessment; Tornado story assessment.
- Asia pounds Alberta--again.
Verburg, Peter // Alberta Report / Newsmagazine; 11/8/93, Vol. 20 Issue 47, p38
Cites figures from the University of Michigan which compared Alberta performance in Grade 11 math to that of various United States and Asian jurisdictions. Numbers of Alberta, Japanese and Taiwanese students who correctly answered 46 questions; Differences in Alberta's curricular system and...
- State math, science requirements paying off, study says.
West, Peter // Education Week; 7/14/1993 Extra Edition, Vol. 12 Issue 39, p10
Reports on the findings of the study `State Indicators of Science and Mathematics Education--1993,' based on data from the 1992 National Assessment of Educational Progress and the Schools and Staffing Surveys. Performance gap between minority and white students; Female enrollment.
- Social skills assessment: A comparative evaluation of six published rating scales.
Demaray, Michelle K.; Ruffalo, Stacey L. // School Psychology Review; 1995, Vol. 24 Issue 4, p648
Presents a comparative and integrative review of six published rating scales commonly used to assess the social skills of preschool and school-aged children. Norm instruments reviewed include `School Social behavior Scales' and `Social Skills Rating System'; Review of content and use,...
- Eyes on the prize.
Demaray, Michelle K.; Ruffalo, Stacey L. // NEA Today; Mar93, Vol. 11 Issue 7, p24
Discusses incentive programs for students to get good grades or simply show up at school. The Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania-area Butler County Area Vocational-Technical School holding drawings for prizes to reward attendance; Incentive program from the Renaissance Education Foundation in...
- High-stakes testing, low-level learning.
Lytle, Victoria // NEA Today; Mar93, Vol. 11 Issue 7, p28
Discusses the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) report `Trends in Academic Progress.' Today's 17 year-olds' science and math skills; Math skills of nine-year-olds; Reading; Homework and improving skills; Students who read a lot; Television viewing and academic performance; More.
- INSTRUCTIONAL SUPPORT AND DEMANDS: HELPING TEACHERS HELP STUDENTS MEET INCREASING ACADEMIC STANDARDS.
Curley, Robert G.; Strage, Amy A. // Education; Fall96, Vol. 117 Issue 1, p128
Suggests a framework for pre-service and in-service teachers to help them think about the constellation of demands new policy initiatives would impose on students. Kinds of instructional supports; Compensations; Theme of problems; Re-examination of data.
- TOO MUCH WORK = POOR GRADES.
Jacob, Rahul // Fortune; 4/5/1993, Vol. 127 Issue 7, p92
Reports on the problems working too many hours can present for US teens' school performance. How studies show that the number of hours teens work directly affect school performance; Examples; How excessive work prevents teens from getting a well-rounded education; Criticisms of teens'...
- Ideas and findings.
Viadero, Debra // Education Week; 7/13/94, Vol. 13 Issue 39, p38
Reports on findings of researches concerning education. Links between school size and student achievement; Societal cost-benefits of central Park East Elementary in New York, New York; Peer-nomination form designed to evaluate gifted behaviors.
- `My kid beat up your honor student'.
Mlawer, Mark A. // Education Week; 7/13/94, Vol. 13 Issue 39, p39
Comments on the honor roll system. Unfairness of the system; Disregard for differences in potentials, interests, and circumstances of children and their lives; Awarding of honor using subjective standards.
- The age of technology takes college administration by storm.
Marcus, Jon // Community College Week; 01/26/98, Vol. 10 Issue 13, p14
States that students at Boston University have not received their grades in the mail for the semester of December 12, 1997. Information on how to access grades from Web sites or over automated telephone systems; Comments from Florence Bergeron, the registrar, whose staff was spared the chore of...
- Using portfolios to demonstrate student skills.
Storms, Barbara A.; Nunez, Athena M. // Thrust for Educational Leadership; May/Jun96, Vol. 25 Issue 7, p6
Looks into the effectiveness of using portfolios for rating students' skills. Standards used in the scrapped California Learning Assessment System (CLAS); Types of portfolios including multiple-choice items; Teachers' role in administering the portfolio system.
- Singapore pupils.
Storms, Barbara A.; Nunez, Athena M. // Presidents & Prime Ministers; Mar/Apr97, Vol. 6 Issue 2, p26
Shows that Singapore pupils are ranked first among the forty-five countries which participated in the Third International Mathematics and Science Study according to the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement.
- PEP recognizes top students.
Storms, Barbara A.; Nunez, Athena M. // Canadian Banker; Jan/Feb91, Vol. 98 Issue 1, p55
Lists the PEP students who earned the highest marks in the courses offered in the Business Program for Bankers and the Professional Banking Program during the 1989-1990 academic program.
- Student assessment programs.
Storms, Barbara A.; Nunez, Athena M. // South Carolina Business Journal; Dec94, Vol. 13 Issue 11, p10
Discusses issues related to student assessment programs in South Carolina. Key features of the proposed revision of the current system of student assessment; Position of the South Carolina Chamber of Commerce on the issues.
- Battle of the brains.
Storms, Barbara A.; Nunez, Athena M. // U.S. News & World Report; 2/17/92, Vol. 112 Issue 6, p10
Reports that the latest International Assessment of Educational Progress finds the brightest American students--specifically, the top 10 percent of 9-year-olds and 13-year-olds--doing as well as any other nation's top 10 percent. How students in the United States ranked in math, science,...
- A multivariate analysis of study skills, test anxiety and locus of control in first-time...
Dykeman, Bruce // Education; Spring93, Vol. 113 Issue 3, p407
Reports on the evaluation of a preventive intervention program for first-time university students indicating that students participating in a cognitive behavioral treatment show significantly more improvement than a control group. Simultaneous measures of study skills, test anxiety, and internal... |
Coupons are like horses, in that depending on how you handle them, they can either take you on enjoyable, smooth rides or buck you off and leave you trampled and broken.
A post Coupon Sense submitted to us helps you bridle and train coupons.
Among the gems in the post is the suggestion not to rush out and use coupons as soon as you can:
A big mistake consumers make is not waiting for the good sale.
Instead, people feel rushed to use the coupon soon after it’s been published. Be patient, and wait for the good sale so you save the most.
Another big mistake is when people don’t buy in multiples.
When Ragu is 30 cents a jar, you’ll want to get 3 or 4 to last you until the next great sale like that.
So, getting multiple papers on Sunday or getting extra coupons from your relatives or neighbors really helps.
Do you find coupons worth the hassle? How do you get the most out of them?
8 things every shopper should know to save big on groceries [Coupon Sense]
Thanks to Michelle!
If you get the Sunday paper every week and save enough money from the coupons to cover the cost of the paper and maybe save more money after that, it’s worth it. I don’t spend a lot of time clipping coupons; maybe a half hour? I only clip the ones I know I’ll use.
One instance of combining deals and coupons: We stock canned soup during the winter because if I get sick, I stop cooking (because cooking while germy is bad). The local store was doing a Buy 2/Get 2 Free deal at $2.50 a can. For $5 you get four cans. I had a coupon for $1 off four cans and because of the way the register rings up canned goods, I got four cans of soup at $1 each. This was a pretty great deal to me because without a coupon I wouldn’t have saved that dollar. I got 12 cans of soup and saved $3 because I had three coupons (Progresso coupons are a dime a dozen).
I only subscribe to the Sunday edition of my local paper but the subscription pays for itself many times over. For the entire year it costs me $104. Most weeks the store were I buy nearly all my clothing has 20% or 25% off coupons. Last week alone I saved over $50 thanks to those coupons on items I was purchasing no matter what, and I bet I save close to $400 total each year. Proctor and Gamble also has good coupons once a month that saves me a lot of money on things like body wash and shampoo.
Argh, out here in California the sunday coupons are pretty much doo doo. Nothing much that you want to buy.
I do however get good email coupons once a week from Raleys, a local chain for nice deals like free products if you spend 20, or just this week I got 15 dollars off 100 spent. Safeway email coupons on the other hand are useless.
Is that a deal, though? Wegmans canned soup is $1/can withOUT coupons.
Yep. It is a deal because I don’t like store brand soup. I don’t live near Wegmans anymore, but even when I did, I didn’t like store brand soup. I mean, if we’re talking about money as being the only criteria to what is a “deal,” the Campbells condensed soups are 50 cents a can, but that stuff is pretty disgusting, IMO. Way much sodium and barely any nutrition.
I think I know where you shop, I got the same deal on the soup this week. Good job!
If someone needs a product, and they decide to use a couple to buy that product, I fail to see how it’s some sort of pitfall.
The consumer received some value from the coupon. Maybe it wasn’t the maximum possible mathematical value, but they received values regardless.
Unless a coupon makes you pay more for a product, I don’t see any pitfalls at all.
Make that ‘decide to use a coupon’.
I should finish my coffee before commenting.
I skipped over a coupon for Philadelphia brand cream cheese because even with the coupon (it was like 50 cents off for two packs) the store brand was still cheaper because it was on sale for 99 cents each. Sometimes the coupon makes the name brand cheaper, and sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve had the most luck with laundry detergent, but I only buy one brand and stock up when it is on sale. We haven’t run out of laundry detergent in a year.
Coupon worth has been going downward over the last several years, depending on where you shop. It used to be the grocery stores would double the coupon, no matter the value. Then it was double, but only if the coupon was under $1. Then it became double, but only up to $1, thereby making the $.75 coupon only worth $1 and not $1.50.
Coupons also went down in value when it changed from $.50 off one item to $.50 off two.
I still carry mine with me and try to wait until the item is on sale to use the coupon. There’s a lot less I buy with coupon now than I used to. It also seems that most of the time, even with the coupon and a sale, the store brand is cheaper. If its a product I’m good with the store brand on, no need for the coupon on the pricier name brand.
Coupon codes for websites can be pretty great. Sometimes they even sway where I buy an item. Print coupons aren’t usually of interest to me. I don’t buy the local paper, as the coupons aren’t enough to make it worthwhile. Other types of prints coupons just tend to remind me how cheaply I can get that same item online. The coupons I get directly from the grocery store never seem quite right. I know they’re supposed to reflect the things you buy, buy it’s always a little bit of a Twilight Zone version of what I’ve bought. Harumph.
The biggest trouble I see with coupons is that many of them are for products which are overpriced or unnecessary in the first place. When I see a coupon for something I already know I am going to buy, then it’s a convenient discount. Coupons for a certain amount or percentage off with a purchase of at least a certain amount at a store are also very nice if I shop at that store anyway.
I can’t keep up with the super-coupon types who spend half a day researching and printing coupons and a few more hours with shopping. Makes plenty of sense if you’re unemployed, underemployed, or otherwise have the means to spend the time needed. For me, I’ll stick to standard frugal choices and using coupons that coincide with what I use.
This is why I’ve given up on coupons for the most part. Twenty years ago, our Safeway would double coupons, and I used them on a regular basis. Now I find that name-brand products STILL cost more than the store or generic brands, even with the (now none-doubled) coupon. The only way a coupon saves me money these days is if I was going to buy the product (including that particular brand of the product) anyway. And that isn’t very often.
My Safeway sends circulars with coupons for a lot of its store brand items and for name brand items. And on most weekends, any coupons you bring double.
I agree. I rarely see coupons for things I buy, which are mostly the basics.
More importantly, since I’m one person and live in an apt with limited storage I find it difficult to buy in bulk.
I try to shop sales and grocery discount stores (where the prices are always good!) instead.
Don’t waste money with a coupon for something you would never have bought in the first place. The inserts in the paper are full of processed crap food that is overpriced in the first place. I don’t get that stuff and it saves me nothing to add it to my grocery list just because there’s a coupon. I try to only use the ones for things I already buy, like toothpaste, cleaning supplies and toiletries.
That said, if there’s something I’d like to try and there’s a coupon, that helps a little.
Indeed there are a lot of coupons I don’t use. I think the majority of coupons I get in the paper get tossed out, but I love the coupons for canned goods and pasta. And there are always coupons for toothpaste and other staples. I bought a tube of toothpaste for 77 cents thanks to a store sale and a coupon.
Coupons are great except when you have a crappy printer then not sogood. The main issue I have with coupons is that you basically have to case the supermarket to find prices on non-sale items with decent enough coupons. I really wish they’d make it standard-practice for any given grocery store to list the prices of all their items online with inventory synched to the stores internal system.
Theres also the chance you get an incompetent cashier which makes some coupons a pain in the posterior. It’d be cool if you had the option to shop online for the groceries and pick them up in the store.
I’m definitely a fan of coupons, but I agree with some of the other posters here: don’t use a coupon if you weren’t planning on purchasing the item anyway.
Over time, I’ve gotten less enthusiastic about spending time clipping coupons for household items, and I instead spend more time looking for larger deals on bigger ticket items and services that I plan to purchase. It’s a far better use of time to save 50 dollars than to save 50 cents on something you’d definitely purchase.
I’m really not trying to sound pretentious here, but I don’t generally think it’s worth my time to flip through those big coupon circulars (think P&G), when I think of what else I could be doing with that time and effort. Moreover, when you ignore those big coupon packs, you also ignore the advertising that is the true purpose of the coupon in the first place. (Well, advertising and first-degree price discrimination.)
Those little savings really add up, though. On the bottom of my receipt it shows how much we’ve saved throughout the year from store deals (this is just one store), and the number from yesterday’s receipt was somewhere around $570. Then again, we rent so our maintenance is taken care of, and we don’t buy big ticket items. The coupons for food items and household goods are the best way of saving money off staple items.
A better way of saving money is to buy store-brand and generic items or shop at discount stores like ALDI. I stopped using coupons because the name-brand item was STILL more expensive (even after the coupon) than other alternatives. Of course, for some people, non-name-brand products aren’t “good enough” (despite the fact that I’ve found that most ALDI products are actually BETTER than the name-brand of the same item). These nose-in-the-air types pay a price (willingly, apparently) for their snobbery. I’d rather have the money to spend on other things.
Are you really trying to say that people who have different taste preferences are pretentious? God forbid we have different opinions. (Not to mention that sales+coupons mean that most of the time I’m buying brand-names for cheaper than store brand).
I’m pretty sure you’re the one who is being pretentious. I wasn’t saying that using coupons was the best way, but that I had saved $570 through coupons and store deals. I pretty much only buy generic store brand items so if you’re trying to make anyone think that buying store brand (or liking different things) is pretentious, you need to revisit your line of thought because your attitude toward people liking different things makes YOU the snob.
“so if you’re trying to make anyone think that buying *name brand (or liking different things) is pretentious, ” is what I meant.
I’d like to know who exactly suggested that using coupons always provides the best deal. I recently got a coupon for Quaker oatmeal. I kept it in my wallet but did not use it because the store brand was lower in price. However, one week there was a special on Quaker oatmeal which made it cheaper than the store brand before coupon. So I used the coupon then.
Also, all products are not equal. Sometimes you can pay less and get the same quality but not always. There’s been times I thought I’d be able to save money by buying store brand but I ended up disappointed. Sometimes I even found that the store brand tasted nasty. Is this what you are advocating? Save money by eating nasty stuff? Or are you trying to convince us that if it tastes okay to you, then it should taste okay to everyone else because you are some sort of connoisseur?
Get over yourself, will ya?
I work in a hotel, so we have stacks of Sunday papers sitting around every week. I get to take all the circulars inside. Shabang!
I gave up and walked out of a CVS the other day after waiting in line behind a single customer for over 5 minutes. This woman was trying to work a complex transaction involving three identical bottles of contact lens solution, three CVS cards, three coupons as well as the store manager and two cashiers studying the flyer.
I put my $12.00 package of razor blades on the counter, went to Walmart and got the same package for $9.00.
I cannot stand that. I appreciate people trying to get a deal .. but when it starts to interfere with my purchase, it becomes my problem. I’ve done exactly what you’ve said .. walked right out.
That’s where it becomes the store’s fault, not the consumer (at least in most cases).
I’ll place fault on both, evenly.
If she’s using multiple cards, then yes…she bears more of the blame. Most of the time, however, it’s the store not having enough cashiers (or poorly trained cashiers) or having confusing rules for their promotions.
It’s worth mentioning that I’m not just speaking of the situation laid out here, but of any situation where the use of coupons gets in the way of a quick store purchase.
That’s harsh. It’s the coupon person’s fault that the line is held up? Glad your time is so much more valuable than the person who got in line in front of you.
And you then burned $3 in gas driving to Walmart.
The biggest problem with coupons is that some people feel obligated to use them. Companies offer them so they can get people to buy things that they normally would not. Some people need to remember that just because they have a coupon doesn’t mean they HAVE to use it.
For all the people who think it’s pointless to cut out a coupon for something you don’t usually buy/need, let me offer a suggestion: If it’s a basic household or food item, cut it out anyway, check the local store circulars and see if you can get the item for pennies/free. Then take what you get down to your local shelter or rescue mission — they’ll appreciate it, and if you’re up for the paperwork you can deduct the purchases from your taxes.
We donate several bags of food and personal hygiene items a year this way, all at little to no cost to us and hardly any extra effort above shopping for ourselves alone.
That’s my hobby. I’m a huge coupon geek which enables me to feed my own family and provide hundreds of dollars worth of groceries, toiletries and household supplies to our local “free store” for the needy. Let me give you an example: My grocery store was running a sale on chili for $.75 a can. My coupon was $.50 which doubled to a dollar. I bought 40 cans of chili for the food pantry and “earned” $10 for my own groceries. I love doing it and it helps others; what could be better?
Not waiting for a sale and then using the coupon is only a mistake if your goal is get the most value out of your coupon. A penny saved is a penny saved! I love coupons and get the most out of them when I combine them with sales, which is what most aggressive couponers do. The only thing annoying about couponing is competing with the stay-at-home-mom psychos that clear the shelves.
However, I will note I lost 40lbs in the past 1.5 years adhering to the guideline of NOT eating anything I had a coupon for, with logical exceptions. Seriously. So for the most part now I just hit drugstores w/ coupons for cheap hygiene stuff and whatnot.
I don’t find couponing that time consuming at all. Today for instance, I flipped through the ShopRite online flyer, saw some items I wanted, and made a list. Then I googled around (slickdeals and hotcouponworld are great sites as people provide matchups to coupons that are out there), and printed some coupons, and will save $6 or so when I go this week.
The thing is, newspaper coupons pretty much suck except for new or specialty items. Printable coupons are where it’s at, as they are usually lower value (eg. 50 cents off 1 instead of $1 off two), but since my grocery stores all double them, it works out well. I spend 30 minutes tops, on doing the above.
Our newspaper’s coupons are 50/50 new things and staples, and this time of year especially there are a lot of coupons for baking basics. Got a free bag of flour last week thanks to the coupon/store promo combo!
My problems with coupons:
1. I probably can’t find coupons for stuff I already buy.
2. If I do find a coupon it’s lame, like 30 cents off when you buy two of something
3. The generic brand is still cheaper than the item with the coupon.
Usually generic brands combined with supermarket club discounts are enough for me to not bother with coupon clipping.
As much as I can appreciate saving money, coupons are in most cases, not worth my while. I generally buy specific brands and items when I shop so I won’t load up on cheap groceries that I would not normally have bought just because I can save a few bucks. Another point is that my time is way more valuable than I’ll ever save using coupons unless they’re those instant coupons that are dispensed right above the item on the shelf.
I don’t bother with coupons because I mostly don’t eat the process chemical crap that is usually discounted. Most of our grocery purchases are for whole ingredients, which we then cook to make healthy meals (ok, well sometimes we go overboard on the cream and sugar, but its not filled with preservatives). When I tried couponing earlier this year, we were buying things we didn’t want to be eating, and not really saving much money.
You should re-examine your attitude. I cook all of our meals from scratch, and we definitely try to eat healthful foods. I am an avid coupon user. In the past few weeks I’ve collected coupons for these things: pasta, clementines, grapes, milk, meat, and juice. I would hardly call any of these “processed,” with the exception of dry pasta, which is minimally processed. In fact, I very rarely buy orange juice at full price because I’ve always got a coupon, even when the store hasn’t put it on sale.
Ummm…pasta and juice are both processed foods. And, I’ve never seen a coupon for meat that wasn’t for some kind of processed meat.
I take advantage of all the online coupon sites that put coupons onto your shopping card, such as shortcuts.com, cellfire.com, and even the supermarket sites themselves.
Sometimes when the same coupon is added to your card (e.g. Shortcuts likes to “renew” coupons with newer expiration dates, but the older ones haven’t expired), the checkout machine will honor both coupons automatically, and sometimes you don’t have to buy multiples of the item.
For example, Vons was having a sale on certain Progresso soups for $1.11 each. I had two separate Shortcuts coupons for 50 cents off of two Progresso soups. I bought two soups, and both coupons activated (inadvertently, as I only bought two soups, not four). So, I got two soups for $1.22 ($1.11 + $1.11 – $0.50 – $0.50).
If I had an actual paper coupon, I would have saved even more, as the checker wouldn’t know what coupon kicked in, as it only says “Mfr. coupon” on the screen.
I actually enjoy couponing, which is the main reason I do it. If I save occassional cash because of it, all the better.
When you pay careful attention you will notice the trends and you can utilize your savings. I do enjoy getting things free or almost free. That is worth the effort. New ideas being heavily marketed usually have the most “bang for the buck” when it comes to the sale + coupon combo. I got two Bailey’s flavored creamers for free this past week.
But realize I went to the effort because it is fun for me. If it is an item you definitely use, full price or not, then yes, it is worth it. Luxury items get a bit cheaper, like Tide. I cant afford it full price. Sale + coupon means it is $5 not $8.99. (plus tax)
Outside of cleaning supplies, I’ve never had much luck with coupons. Store brands are typically cheaper than name brands, even with coupons. Coupons are also disproportionately for processed foods and not meat or produce.
I have occasionally used coupons for toiletries, but never for food. I don’t eat processed faux foods and I never see coupons for real whole foods.
Items with hot coupons will often have bare spots on the shelves for a few days after the coupon appears in the paper. This is my strategy:
* Only clip coupons for things or brands you like. This cuts down impulse buying.
* Buy a cheap 5-8 pocket folder at the dollar store. Mine is storted as “Fast Food”, “Cleaning”, “Health and Beauty”, “Frozen” and “Other”.
* Most coupons expire at the end of the month (or the following month) after being published. Be sure to remove expired coupons each month.
* For stores that double or triple-coupon, watch sales. Near the end of the month, I pull all the ready to expire coupons and see if it’s worth redeeming them while shopping.
* Compare and be sure the coupon is actually a good deal. If the coupon is $1 off and the store brand is just as good at $3 less, the store brand is still the better deal.. |
The.
I am a long time GameStop customer. I have patronized their company for close to 10 years, and being just a 20 year old, I have a lot more time and money to spend with them.
As I’m writing this, I still can’t believe it. I used to read the Consumerist and think “How can someone just stop going to a store over something so small?” But now, I completely understand.
I am a Mac (let the Windows/Mac debate begin). I take great pride in my personal computer. However, I also LOVE Windows and all things Microsoft. I grew up with Windows and never understood why Apple users felt so cut off from the rest of the gaming world. A recent trip and later chat with GameStop sure made me understand the difficulties of gaming with an Apple computer.
I went to a local GameStop (actually a couple) to purchase a PC game that is compatible with both Windows and Mac OS X. GameStop, it seems, has deemed physical copies of PC games to be obsolete, which I can understand. I noticed a sign that said something along the lines of “Don’t see the game you want? Download your favorite PC games at *URL*!” Curious, I approached the sales associate, who was MORE than helpful, and he ordered the game for me, I paid, and I was given a receipt with a download code and instructions on the bottom.
I return home to redeem the game with the code I had. Following the instructions, I’m told to download a program known as Impulse in order to download the game itself. I go to the page on GameStop’s website, enter the code to download Impulse, only to download a .exe file (If you don’t know, .exe only works on Windows computers.).
Moderately peeved, I immediately sent an email to the support email address listed on the bottom of the receipt. Essentially, my email said “The game I purchased to download in store works for my Mac, but your program doesn’t. Is there anything that can be done?” Their reply, paraphrased, was “Sorry, you can’t download our games onto your Mac, and we can’t refund any money on downloaded games.”
This did upset me, but I decided to begin to think of ways around it. A day or so later, I came to the conclusion to give the code to a friend of mine so that he could enjoy the game, and I would purchase the physical copy whenever I had the funds in the future. I gave him the code and the instructions, but he was met with a page that said “Someone else has already claimed that code.” Now, I may have entered the code into their site in order to download a program, NOT install it, but I couldn’t even get to the part where I claimed the game in any form whatsoever.
Rather angry by now, I emailed GameStop once more. This time, I politely asked if there were some way for them to allow my friend to either use that code or cancel it and give him a new one. GameStop replied with the same schtick, “We are unable to refund your order blah blah blah…”
I sent a strongly worded email following that stating that if there was no way to fix this situation, they would be losing a long time customer. I’ve received no email from them since.
This game cost me $20. Sure, it’s not the largest amount of money, and it IS just a game, but I feel completely cheated. There was nothing in the store that told me that I would not be able to play a PC game on my PC just because it didn’t have Windows as its operating system. Their own website doesn’t even state that Impulse is only compatible with Windows. A quick Google search told me that I am not the first person to have been cheated out of their money from GameStop for this very same situation.
I guess what I want out of this is acknowledgement from GameStop that they are wrong and should be more vocal with their OS compatibility. Also, it’d be nice if this could serve as a warning to all Mac gamers out there. $20 wouldn’t hurt either
Update: We heard from a GameStop higher-up, who let us know that the employee who sold Brett that code wasn’t following policy.
BootCamp?
Did you bother to even read the story? He gave the download code to a friend since he couldn’t use it and the website claimed it had already been redeemed, despite the fact that he never actually downloaded, installed, or ran the program in question. In other words, the GameStop system is terribly designed. If you lose your network connection while trying to download a game you buy from them then you’re screwed and out of your money. Once you enter your code you have that one chance to successfully download the program, and they won’t help you if the download fails.
That’s not how it works at all. Once the code is associated with your account (“claimed”) you can download the game infinity times. Even if you’ve downloaded it all, installed it, played it, and then your computer breaks, you can just download it again on your new computer.
Digital distribution isn’t new, and as a mac user I’m surprised he didn’t take a minute to check to make sure it would work.
Yeah, well I have first hand experience with their system. What you said is true…if they give you a working code in the first place. They provided me with a used code when I bought Batman: AC through Impulse. Then all hell broke loose. They had absolutely no idea how to remedy the problem…pointing me to Warner Bros, GFWL, GameStop, etc. Took 1.5 weeks and about 5 hours of work on my part to get it resolved, and that was only after threatening them with BBB and mailing the State AG.
Okay, on the same token…how could Gamestop sell a Windows/Mac game, but have no way for Mac users to download the damn game?
> Okay, on the same token…how could Gamestop sell a Windows/Mac game, but have no way for Mac users to download the damn game?
You’re confusing the issue a little bit. Just because a game has been built for both Windows and Mac does not mean that every copy of the game in existence will run on both. When you buy a physical copy of a game designed to run on both – say anything by Blizzard for example – what you’re really getting is both a Mac copy and a PC copy on the same disc. Your computer’s smart enough to figure out which one it needs to run.
Impulse is a Windows-only service. There’s no reason to even be concerned with the Mac build of a game… for the same reason Mass Effect 3 has been built for PC, Xbox 360, and PS3, but you can only buy the PS3 version on the Playstation Store and the PC version on Origin. Why would the service sell you a copy of a game that it’s not designed for?
OP should not be having this much trouble getting his $20 back, but he also should have confirmed with the person in the store that he’d be able to access Impulse on his Mac. The answer would have been a resounding “no” and he never would have made the purchase to start with.
While I generally agree with you, if you’re not aware of the existence of Impulse, how would you know to ask?
This is unfortunately where we are today: people that staff these stores and do this kind of work aren’t expected to or even try to think for themselves. It is surprising to me that the person he spoke to could not divine enough of his need from their conversation (or from his own prior experience with difficulties customers have had) to proactively offer advice about what might happen when he got home. So, we’re left to believe either: a) the person didn’t care, knowing the purchase was non-refundable, or b) the individual is so minimally competent as to be capable of nothing more than ringing a sale and taking money.
I’m pretty sure I’ve got programs on Impulse that I’ve downloaded more than once. The game is most likely tied to his account.
Redeeming and downloading are two entirely different things. The moment he entered the code into the site (that coincidentally states windows pc download) he redeemed it. So the code was, in fact, used. Once redeemed, it cannot be transferred. This is the same with many other digital download services, steam included.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but you can download the program over and over and over and over again. The following was taken directly from the support page.
[quote]If I reformat my hard drive or get a new computer, will I need to purchase my games again?
No. Your games are forever tied to your GameStop PC Downloads account and can be re-downloaded at a later time (as many times as you want). Just reinstall the GameStop App to your PC, login with your existing account, and re-download your games![quote]
If your connection fails, you simply download the game again. It is tied to the OP’s account, so he/she can download it as many times as they wish, provided they use Windows XP, Vista, or Windows 7, as stated in the system requirements.
BootCamp just makes running Windows possible. Last I checked Mac OS X doesn’t come with a Windows license and $200 is a lot of money to spend just to play a $20 game. Sure he could pirate, but then why not just pirate the Mac version of the game?
DING DING we have a winner.
You paid for the game; now go play the game in peace and good conscience. If you have to download it, then that is NOT ILLEGAL for you because you have the “right to copy” specified by “copyright” law. Nor is it unethical, which should be quite obvious, and for many people like me is the controlling issue.
Shut down this thread, because esc27 answered the question of how to solve the problem.
Are you new? Does this site do that?
But your Honor, some guy on the internet told me it wasn’t illegal for me to do. You have to let me go!
You do not buy games. You buy licenses to play games. The OP needs to go to and download the mac version of the game. Install it and Voila he has a perfectly legal game. Just make sure you read the comments and use little snitch to make sure your download does not contain a trojan hidden in it.
RETURN POLICY – Software published by GameStop:
We require that you utilize our technical support services prior to issuing a refund. Tech support can be contacted at [email protected]. charge for technical support”. That’s probably because they don’t have any. Whatever their little Return policy says, just toss it out the window. They won’t abide by it. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Calling them and emailing them results in no resolution.
That’s good to know, I’ve been thinking about getting back into some PC games. Looks like I won’t be going through gamestop for downloaded games
I strongly recommend that the OP reach out to the local store and ask to speak to the District Manager. You may want to also find out the District Manager’s home store and their number for somewhat easier access to this person. If you get a hold of him/her or when they call you back, politely and coherently tell them what happened and where the confusion came from. They will most likely help you with little fuss. Make sure to point out that at the time of purchase, no warning about the comparability of the service was noted and that is where the transaction took a wrong turn.
The DM’s are generally very helpful.
Email the publisher and let them know of the issue. I would bet they would take care of you; they want you to play their game!
The publisher doesn’t care whether you got to play their game or not, they just want the sell so they can move onto the next project. You would have better luck reaching out to the Developers and hoping they have a way of getting you a copy.
Not every game publisher is EA.
Thank god they won the WCIA!
As a long time gamer, the only thing I can say is steer clear of Impulse and GameStop. GS is fine if you want to simply pay max price on console games.
If you buy anything through Impulse and you have a problem (game didn’t finish downloading, their game code doesn’t work…etc.), they literally have no authority to remedy anything. Oh, they have people manning the phones, but they have absolutely no interest in helping you. Think of calling a scummy call center while someone on the other end chews gum and files their nails while you explain a problem to them, and they simply repeat the same spiel back at you repeated for 30 minutes like a parrot. No, the supervisor isn’t available. Maybe call back tomorrow at 8 am and he’ll be here. And despite Impulse being owned by GameStop, they are apparently 2 different companies. They do not have the authority or ability to work with each other. Apparently their systems aren’t linked in any way. After the last fiasco I had with GS and Impulse, I can safely say I will never every do business with either of them again.
I guess I don’t really understand why someone would buy a virtual product at a B&M store. That completely defeats the purpose, and this seems a little like bait-n-switch on Gamestop’s part.
If you want a game that exists only as a download, might as well buy it through Steam. It works on PC and Mac, and there’s finally been solid confirmation that the Steam native Linux client is substantially closer to becoming a reality. Yeah, it sucks that Valve sometimes bans Steam users for perceived cheating, but most don’t have any problem and at least you can play the games you buy across platforms and don’t have to worry about having your game broken by DRM because you tried to reinstall the game one time too many.
Mind you the bans for cheaters were only bans on servers using Valve’s anti-cheat technology. If you just play single player games you have nothing to worry about. Neither did the cheaters. Of course VAC servers are the only ones worth playing on.
With regards to those wrongly accused of cheating, most of the stories I’ve seen usually involve the complainant letting someone else use their account. Maybe my time in IT has left me a suspicious misanthrope, but NEVER share a user account with anyone. If you shared the account info once, it’s likely to get shared again and again with people you don’t know.
You do raise an interesting point. It’s probably good to have two Steam accounts, one for your library of single-player games, and another one for multiplayer games, so if there is a complaint, you don’t lose everything. I tend to like to have all multiplayer games as standalone products because of the politics surrounding them and the inflated perception of value that makes them desirable phishing & hijacking targets. It seems like a good idea to limit the potential fallout.
But yeah, it’s a bad idea to let others use the account, especially share it in such a way that the time played in a multiplayer is exorbitant and looks like someone is either sharing the account or using a bot.
If you only have cash it may be your only option.
“(let the Windows/Mac debate begin)”
Well, yeah, maybe 15 years ago…
Also, the only right answer is chargeback, so that way Gamestop loses your business and you don’t lose any money.
Chargeback or small claims court. Granted, the filing fee for small claims may be more than the game is worth, but NOTHING says peeved customer like a lawsuit.
steampowered.com
^OP’s new best friend.
This. Steam is the only way to get games on the Mac platform these days if you’re going the Digital Download route.
I was about to post exactly this. Plus Steam has some awesome sales each weekend and during the holidays.
Sounds like a classic case of “chargeback” if I ever heard one.
This is why I’ll be the last, bitter, hold out in favour of physical media.
And once they kill discs and I’m forced to buy downloaded content I’ll be buying *much* less of it.
If some B&M store told me to go home and get online and buy them game online after I just spent my time and $ on going there in the first place Id go back home and log on to my Amazon Prime and buy it there. Screw that.
I second that…
Exactly! And you can get a physical copy for cheaper than a digital copy…
> Rather angry by now, I emailed GameStop once more.
Stop right there. Stop e-mailing GameStop and go back to the store.
This. An email gets binned with a single mouse-click, possibly without even being read. A customer physically in the store demanding either a working copy of the game or a refund is a lot harder to ignore.
What’s the game?
They lost my business over a lot less than $20 bucks. I gave up there when they stopped carrying PC games in any meaningful quantity, and when they started pushing pre-orders and other junk so relentlessly. There’s simply no point for me to ever shop at a brick and mortar store again.
When Skyrim came out, I went to my local GameStop to see if they had it. I had preordered it through NewEgg, but shipping was going to take way longer than I had anticipated. I looked around the store and found nothing. I asked the clerk if they had Skyrim in stock. He responded with: “Did you pre-order it?” “No” “Well it’s not in stock then.”
Skyrim still isn’t in stock at most GameStops around here that do carry PC games (most do not).
Do you still have the .exe file? Give that to your friend.
I think you misunderstood the post. The EXE file he has is not the game. It is just the Impulse program required to install the game. Once installing this EXE, the friend would need to sign in and would find that the game download is not associated with his account.
thats what you get for not just pirating it! :p (seriously what do they think people will do when they are treated like this! )
“Download your favorite PC games at *URL*!”
I’ve never known the term PC games to also include Mac.
Also, just copy the downloaded .exe file to a flash drive and give it to your friend.
PC=computer, versus game console. In this context, it covers Win, Mac, Linux, or ANY OS on a regular computer.
Again, I’ve never known it to include anything other than DOS/Windows based products. The term came from the old IBM/PC line of computers which weren’t Mac compatible.
Media bastardized the true meaning of PC (Personal Computer) to mean only the Windows OS. When it actually has nothing to do with the operating system. Kind of like how they misuse the term hacker, which is always misused; when they actually should be using the term cracker.
PC was originally a model of an IBM computer. If anything the media bastardized it to mean any personal computer.
> Media bastardized the true meaning of PC (Personal Computer) to mean only the Windows OS.
The hell they did. The IBM PC was launched over 30 years ago. Software all through the 80s was sold as being IBM PC-compatible or otherwise, and that was to denote compatibility with the hardware, not with a specific OS.
As I said above, even Apple’s own commercials called them Macs and PCs.
Even Apple’s own commercials distinguish them as Macs and PCs.
Gamestop is NOT the place to buy PC games. Many of their stores don’t even carry PC games and most that do have a pitfully small selection. They can’t sell them preowned so they don’t really care about them.
That said, go back to the store and talk to the manager, he or she might be able to help. They can override corporate in certain situations.
If that fails go to the survey link at the bottom of your receipt and give them bottom of the barrel scores. That will catch the attention of a District Manager (trust me they live and die by those surveys) who can help you.
Doing the survey with all negative results has worked beautifully for me to get service from Gamestop in the past.
Sounds like OP only tried one contact avenue. They need to kick it up the chain and find some new contact names to bug. Time for an EECB?
chargeback.
I concur with others that said to reach out to a local store. Officially, a refund is not allowed on digital content, but the company’s strong customer service focus will override that, even if that focus was not made obvious with Impulse technical support. Go to your local store and speak to the store manager. Explain the issues you’ve been having in a calm way (because niceness goes a long way when you need assistance), explain that you’d like to continue shopping with GameStop, and ask if there’s anything they or their DM can do to help.
Protip: GameStop’s email addresses for DMs are usually [email protected], so if you can get their name you can try that route, although I would try the store manager first before going over their head.
Also, if you do go to a store and they do help you, make sure you take their survey. The district manager and regional VPs read those surveys and not enough people tell them when a store does a *good* job.
In my corporate experience, if you go to the regional or district manager, you get what you want, no matter how stupid you’re being – they’re not there to deal with customer issues since it should never reach that high. In our store, our manager gives in just to stop that from happening… But believe me, the floor associates will remember you after that…
Exactly. This is why I think he should take the issue to the store manager first. He will more than likely get what he wants without needing to bother with emailing the DM.
I don’t see why the floor associates would remember him negatively, especially if he doesn’t act like a jerk. Heck, he might even have such a good experience he’ll keep coming back and the associates will remember him – because he’s a regular.
It sounds like fraud to me: bait and switch. They sold you a Mac game which requires Windows. I suggest small claims for the $20 plus the maximum possible other damages to make it worth your time. Also picketing the store will probably be enough to get the manager to find a way to get you that refund they claim is impossible.
Wait… people still go to Gamestop?!
I actually went to my local gamestop to purchase a DSi because I wanted to see the condition it was in before purchasing it. Their DSi’s were very worn and scratched so I asked about the 3DS. Got one in pristine condition for maybe $30 more plus I get to play games that come out in only 3D now. Like the re-release of Ocarina of Time.
I like to see my used good before purchasing, if the price difference isn’t too large… and GameStop had delivered for me, console-wise.
Where do you go to shop for video games when you want one right there and then?
For PC Games? Steam. GameStop sure as hell doesn’t carry them. Have you
I am usually first to raise a pitchfork against Gamestop but I’m with them on this one for one simple fact.
“Download your favorite PC games at”
You saw this in the store and full well knowing you use a Mac still tried to purchase it. You should know that a PC game is not a Mac game and of course if you have any decent experience using a Mac you should know by now that you bought the wrong type of computer for playing games. Take all that money you’re never gonna spend at GS again and go buy a real computer.
PC = Personal Computer. Just because Apple tried to re-define PC to mean a non-Apple product does not change the definition.
A Mac isn’t a computer for a person?
I think we are arguing the same thing – a PC = Personal Computer, AKA Windows, Mac, Linux, etc.
Then maybe you should re-read the article there smart guy. If they are selling a game, which they are, as being able to be installed on the Windows OS and Mac OS then shouldn’t they have a way for people to use it on a Mac…let alone the ability to download it to the Mac.
Reading the OP’s saga, it sounds as though the clerk really doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Impulse is PC(Windows) only, and as such does not deal with Mac games. So it really sounds as though the clerk sold OP the downloadable PC version. There isn’t a downloadable Mac version.
Perhaps OP and the clerk were confused about the meaning of “PC”?
I had a similar experience with Game Stop and Impulse. I purchased a game for my daughter for $10 and then went to download it. I was informed that I had to download the Impulse software to her computer to run the game. I only wanted the game and not the Impulse software. So I contacted customer service and they told me that they do not give refunds on downloadable games and that I must install their bloatware on her computer to use the game.
So I contacted PayPal to get a refund on my $10 since I never downloaded the game and had no intention of doing so. PayPal contacted Game Stop and they said they would not refund any money for downloadable games. So I lost my $10.
It is a good warning for people to know what Game Stop and Impulse are up to. I hope there is a nice class action lawsuit against them at some point soon. They will get what they deserve for ripping off so many people.
“PayPal contacted Game Stop and they said they would not refund any money for downloadable games. So I lost my $10.”
Get out…
PayPal contacted the other party before arbitrarily refunding? Who knew?
(This is not a shot at you, budanatr, just for the record)
I don’t understand how this isn’t fraud. Chargeback or sue. They didn’t deliver the game as promised. The represented to you when you purchased the code that you could run the game on your Mac. Also, file a report with the state AG, and complain to the city where the business is licensed. Since the game is delivered over the internet, it’s also a federal crime, so file a complaint with the FTC. Be sure to email copies of all your complaints to Gamestop.
I bet if he checks the receipt it says he bought a game for Windows, not Mac.
Clerk didn’t know what he was talking about, and I’m not quite sure how the OP didn’t understand that “PC” means “Windows OS” and not “generic device called a Personal Computer.” People have never referred to Macs as PCs. Even Apple would never say “PC”, insisting on calling their computers “Apple Macintosh Personal Computers.” or just “Macs.”.
And this is how business steal from customers $10 and $20 at a time. No one will bother going to Small Claims court or taking other action for such a small amount, even though they would certainly win. Does the leadership of GameStop have a sense of shame?
Why didn’t he just download it on Steam? That runs on macs now. DERP
I DL games from GOG.com, Steam.com or Amazon.com.
Everyone else can eat it.
I can’t understand why anyone would buy a download code from a retail store. Its illogical. I’m not blaming the op as gs is clearly in the wrong here. They got their $20 so they don’t care. A digital dl has drm so any copy can easily be revoked. They should do a refund. Piracy? Pirates don’t bother with stores and drm or hassle the pirated copy always just works so its clear this guy isn’t trying to pull a fast one.
As someone who uses Mac, PC and Linux on a daily basis, I can tell you that gamers are pretty much stuck with Windows machines unless you find a game company that really likes Macs. You can see evidence of this at Fry’s, where build-your-own souped-up machine aisles are all PCs. Nobody builds souped-up Macs, for gaming or otherwise. Find a cheap second-hand PC and use it for gaming. Problem solved.
i seriously could not give less of a fuck about people having trouble buying video games
Thats lame and you should get your money back…
but OP..why buy a “physical download code” for a game that requires you to download it anyway? Just buy it online and save the hassle of going to the store. You can buy games online and DL them right away in this day and age. Steam for Mac
I bet their plate glass window costs more than $20.
Justice.
Go in person back to the store you bought it from. Explain the situation, doubt you will get anywhere with email.
Next time spend your 20 bucks on a dinner date and pull yourself away from the computer.
I’m going to have to call bs on this…
1) a “PC GAME” will not work for mac… the fact that you went to “purchase a PC game” while owning a mac shows you were already at fault. Did you know that Max Payne 3 works for both Xbox and PS3? That doesn’t mean if I go buy a xbox version and jam it into my playstation it’s going to work, or that it’s anyone’s fault but my own.
2) Did you bother even looking at the page where you redeem the code? It says create a Gamestop PC Download account. The top of the next page says PC Downloads. Did you bother looking at the receipt, you know, the one you had to read to enter the code? It says right on there “STEPS TO REDEEM GAMESTOP WINDOWS PC DOWNLOAD” and even on the site where you enter the code, it clearly states “windows” in the example. Are they supposed to ask every persons the buys something, if they understand what it is they are buying. “Um, just wanted to let you know, this Nintendo DS game is for the Nintendo DS, in case you were unaware, it will not work in a PSP” You bought a PC game, which printed a windows pc redemtion code, that asked you to redeem it on a page stating that it is a windows code!
3) Not paying attention to the all the signs that point to pc/windows (the store, the receipt, the redemption page) you purchased a non refundable item. When you finally realized you made a mistake, you want to blame someone else for not taking it back, This is like buying the wrong size body jewelry, a concert ticket for the wrong day, or a non refundable plane ticket to the wrong airport. You didn’t bother paying attention and don’t want to own up to it.
4)PC’s have never been Macs. You can’t honestly tell me that you thought a pc game would play on your mac, can you? And I’m sorry bud, but a quick glance at the page shows you are wrong about Impulse not claiming compatibility with windows. The big freaking button you push to download the app itself says “Requires Windows XP (32-bit) / Vista / Windows 7″ right on it!
You should learn to do a little bit of research before purchasing something. Do you put diesel fuel in your car because “it was at the same pump, at the gas station.. so it must be gas”? Do you grab random console games off the shelf, hoping they’ll work in your system simply because “the company makes the came for lots of systems”? When you buy food for your pet (if you have one) do you just grab a random bag off a shelf in the store, simply because “pet food is sold there”? I think I’ve made my point.. You didn’t bother to even look at what you purchased.. next time, maybe you should. |
I’d love for the reader to explain his objections some more, because I don’t want to put words in his mouth.
It sounds like he wasn’t happy that a flag representing a government founded on Marxist, communist, and/or Maoist principles was flying so prominently in downtown Walnut Creek—and so close to City Hall.
The reader referred to it as a “communist China flag,” then said, “Yeah, I understand it’s Chinese food, but come on! How ‘bout an American flag next to it at least?”
But isn’t communism—the kind we associate with Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or other 20th century utopian ideologues—so last century? Okay, sure the People’s Republic of China—better known as mainland China—is the most populous nation on earth (1.2 billion people), and it is ruled by the Communist Party of China under a single-party, authoritarian system.
But how “communist” is the Communist Party of China, or the People's Republic of China? Only about 5 percent of people in mainland China belong to the Party. Then there was the rule of Deng Xiaoping (de facto leader of China from 1978 to the early 1990s). He introduced a social and economic philosophy termed “socialism with Chinese characteristics” that merges a market economy with a socialist political system.
In terms of discussing contemporary Chinese political systems, I'll be the first to admit that I'm flying without a net, and it would be nice if some expert on modern China or communist theory weighed in. But, it it sounds to me like China is more capitalist than stereotypically communist. At the same time, I understand that China’s government, with its single-party system, is not as democratic as many of us would like.
Back to OI-C Bowl? Does any of this high-falutin' political economy/ideology stuff have any bearing on how we should react to the People’s Republic of China flag flying hanging outside this restaurant?
On a somewhat related topic, it is common to go into an Italian, French, or Mexican restaurant, and see the colors of those country’s flags, or the actual flags themselves, flying as part of the restaurant’s décor. I’m a big fan of Thai food. Any Thai restaurant worth its fish sauce will display photos of the Thai royal family, a display—like that of the Italian, French and Mexican flags—that is an exercise in nationalist pride. (And, yes, technically, Thailand enjoys democratic rule, so, by that measure, we Americans like Thailand. But how democratic is a country like Thailand that continues to be plagued by rampant vote buying, corruption, and regularly military-backed coups?)
And, compared with the Italian, French, and Mexican flags, is there something different about a display of Chinese flag--a bright red sheet with its five bright yellow stars--on WC’s popular North Main Street? In terms of color scheme and design, this flag is reminiscent of the red-and-yellow hammer-and-sickle flag of the Soviet Union. Of course, both the flags of the USSR and of the People’s Republic of China were and are controversial symbols of the communist ideology with which we Americans were so long at war. Cold War-wise, that is.
For many people, seeing this Chinese flag won’t provoke the same sentimental reaction they might get from seeing an Italian, French, or Mexican flag. Suburbanites of mainland Chinese origin might have a different reaction.
Also, you might have a more open and welcoming attitude towards the PRC, following the Beijing Olympics and in light of our complicated relationship with that country in the midst of the global economic crisis--with that country emerging as the United State's largest creditor.
Is China our new economic BFF on the world stage? Should we therefore show its red-and-gold-star flag some respect? Or is China our new big, bad superpower enemy, and should we treat that country, and its flag, with wariness?
86 comments:
Ate a wonderful dinner there tonight!
Since they own a tremendous amount of our national debt, I'd say they get to waive a few flags...it's the least we should do.
We are all very interconnected now, and need to get over these kinds of nationalistic and semantic differences.
Who cares about the flag they waive. It's their restaurant. And, if they are communist, it's their business. People who don't like it shouldn't patronize their establishment. As long as there is no ordinance that prevents flags from being flown in front of restaurants, I'm all good with it. Let these people pursue their happiness, please!!
The food there is over-rated. As for those who think anyone can hang anything they wish, well, what if it were a nazi flag? How about a confederate flag?
Does La Fogata have to paint over their Mexican Flag also?
This guy sounds like and insecure douchebag.
get rid of it. It is like spitting in america's face.
Yes, you are right. There should be an American flag right next to it.
To only show the communist flag is an insult. I like OI-C, but will not go there until this is addressed.
DumbasBricks,
You sir are a dumbass douchebag. Grow a pair.
Soccer Mom,
Your blog is becoming more of an extremist rant or place to rant. Are you fueling this on purpose?
They will not be getting my custom but they can fly what they wish.
So what. Those complaining probably have a garage full of crap/junk/stuff made in China. So who is really supporting Communist China?????
nice story SM. GET RID OF THE UGLY FLAG!
That is the Flag of there country and NOBODY should complain or have any problems of them representing there home. It is rude and un-American. Is this not the land of the free?
Careful folks, your xenophobia is showing.
How dare anyone exercise their first amendment right to display a symbol to which some people might object? This is America, after all, where liberty means free speech only applies to statements that no one may object to.
March 24, 2009 10:47 PM
People and business do still fly the confederate flag in this country. Matter of fact a few states fly it over their capital.....so what's your point?
People would disagree with it like you disagree with this. Those that don't agree can not eat there and if the owner feels like it's harming their business they will take it down.
These type of racist remarks are what cause hatred towards white people. After the assination of Oscar Grant many minorities felt that it was a racially motivated murder and hatred grew towards the Oakland Police. Altough I do not condone the murder of the 4 officers, there are many people that find hapinness in this event...You people that are writing flamatory comments are the same as the people that are happy that the 4 officers were killed.
do you also refuse to eat chinese food because you disagree with chinese communist politics?
this restaurant flying the chinese flag is a cultural statement, not a political one.
The owners are Chinese and whether they agree with the present regime or not it's their homeland. I appreciate this blog and the opportunity for discussion. Don't let the personal attacks discourage you.
America is a CONTINENT, get it straight! Ignorance is bliss!
are the china flag haters also target/kmart/walmart shoppers? they should take a look in the mirror. symbolic outrage doesn't disguise their consumer addiction to chinese products.
Wow - you First Amendment fighters could be helpful in the Anonymous blog of a couple days ago re the Sufism Sanctuary... same argument diff topic
Now, I can't wait to try this restaurant, being unfairly singled out by this blog and by all the racists and xenophobes on this blog and Claycord.
This reads like the paranoid 1950’s McCarthy communist witch-hunt’s looking for commies under every rock. A world flag signifies a COUNTRY, not a political party or ideology. This is the flag of China, not the communist party. Question: because a flag is hanging outside a business (close to City Hall) do we remove all other flags just because the political system is not to our liking?, or perhaps take it a step further and not allow foreign people or businesses because of their mother country. Granted the Republic of China is controlled by the communist party, but every day the country is becoming more Capitalistic. Today in 2009, one would have a hard time telling the difference between Shanghai rush hour traffic jams and Highway 24 jams, or shopping areas with designer clothes, or 1000’s of new China made Buicks and Audi’s hitting the road every month. The thought process of the blogger is off base and wrong.
What annoys the crap out of me is that the restaurant name is an obvious play on a Japanese word (OI-C = oishii = delicious), but is a Chinese restaurant.
They can use their own language to look for a cutesy restaurant title, TYVM.
all this about a japannesed name a white american owned chineese restaurant
If your going to hang a flag of a different country other than the American. It needs to fly below the American flag period. Look into that as a Iraqi bet it needs to come down. Who cares what the food taste like. I can care less if their country is caring our debt. Maybe we shouldn't out source to that country. Like I said if you want to fly the flag put the American flag up too, and make sure it flys higher.
Thank you
Does'nt bother me , the vibe in Walnut Creek is what does bother me.
Anon 4:22 Flying both flags is only required on Federal and State properties. Think post offices, schools, courthouses.
It would be nice to see an American flag there as well, but not required.
I think they should take down the flag and soccer mom should take down that photo that doesn't look even remotely like her.
There are some of us who still consider our country's flag something to be honored. I understand the compulsion to hang onto reminders of one's homeland when transplanted to another land, but, may I remind you all, these people come here willingly. Why is it that those people are revered for loving their homeland while I am reviled for loving mine? (BTW, I was born in Australia). How dare you call those of us who love our country xenophobic. Your government education is showing..
Speaking of Flags being put up in front of businesses, check this out video!
VIDEO LINK
American Veteran Removes US Flag from beneath Mexican Flag in Reno
All I see is a Chinese flag in front of a Chinese restaurant.Is that really such a big deal? All cultures have the right to be celebrated and treated equally.
As opposed to worrying about an inanimate object; people should be focused and concerned on the real events occurring closer to home. Oakland is in jeopardy of being completely burned by street thugs when the BART officer's charges are reduced. And conversely, Channel 7 news is examining if the cop killer received a bad shake from the probation & parole system. I really urge people to focus on the real issues and real events in our society and community that impact our lives today and tomorrow.
What the hell. you people have been dumbed down by the eduaction system and the medias.
Communism has been responsible for more deaths than Hitler was! How about Tianinamun(however the spell it)square. They killed millions of their own people in the 60's and 70's, They invaded Tabet and ran the Della Lama out. If you want to see smog go there! People are dying from river water it is so polluted. If they demonstrate they get thrown in jail. There were over 5000 demonstrations last year alone because of the dirty air and water.
This is a never ending story but you get the picture. So you turn your backs and find a place for your heads, up your asses as usual!
The Confederate Flag does not fly on any State Capital, the last place was in South Carolina and it came down some 5 years ago or so. In fact the state flag which had it on 1/3 part of it was reworked so that it is displayed with a series of small flags that flew in the state as I recall. Forget which one.
The Chinese flag is... well the Chinese flag. It would be kind of interesting if they flew the flag of Nationalist China (Taiwan) and then they would stir up protests from Chinese mainlanders who see the Taiwanese as breakaway rebels etc.
International politics is such fun.
This is America isn't it? The land of the free and the home of the brave. Who are we to tell people what flags they can and can't fly. They are supporting their country that they are from. Now Iam not saying that it's right, and I certainely don't agree with the flying of this flag but as an American citizen they have every right to do so. If you don't like it, look the other way as you walk or drive by, hell don't eat at their restaurant if you don't agree. As for the la fogata mexican flag goes, half of contra costa county is full of mexicans, they should be able to have their flag painted on the side of their building.
USA stands for freedom. We should show the meaning of that. Snibbling wieners, tell me where you can be found. I'll be right over Chinese Hot peppers to ram up your arse
Sure doesn't stop anyone from buying everything from China. I bet most American flags are made in China. This whole discussion is foolish.
To all those who feel they have every right to fly whatever they want, well, what if they decide to not serve African-Americans next? Is that ok? According to your logic it is because they should be able to do whatever they wish as a private business.
what do i think well i think you need to get a real life and stop looking for things to complain about, you've obviously got too much time on your hands
12:04,
Refusing to serve people based on their race, ethnicity, religion, etc., is illegal. These laws are meant to protect minority groups. How on earth do you figure flying a flag has any correlation at all to minority protections?
If you don't like it, don't patronize their establishment. It's simple. You're all so offended by eating at an establishment flying a Chinese flag, yet you'll all eat on plates and with utensils that have been manufactured in China. What kind of car do you drive? Where are your clothes manufactured?
You're a useless parody of a patriot.
If you really want to be patriotic, buy only American-made products.
Who cares if someone flies a Confederate flag. Nazi flags might fall under racial-hatred laws, which is different than flying a flag because you're proud of your country.
No person should have to become white to live in this country.
I have never seen so much bigotry and racial hatred as I have in Contra Costa County.
I never eat in Walnut Creek because all of their restaurants are crappy, expensive, and overrated.
I will, however, make an exception. I intend to eat at this restaurant just to give them some support.
If everyone is so up in arms about the ideals the country of China was founded on, why don't we also look at some of the practices we demonstrated when our country became a nation, slavery anyone?
Who cares? Seriously. With all the problems we face, people want to worry about a flag? Some of you people need to get a life. They serve CHINESE food - should they put up a Mexican or French flag?
I know the owners and these are nice people simply trying to make a go of it in a borderline location.
I suspect they put the flag up to get a little more attention in a location that needs some attention. I seriously doubt they had ANY idea this would turn into a political issue.
"I never eat in Walnut Creek because all of their restaurants are crappy, expensive, and overrated.
I will, however, make an exception. I intend to eat at this restaurant just to give them some support."
Congratulations, because that restaraunt is definitely crappy, expensive and overrated. Knock yourself out!
"I know the owners and these are nice people simply trying to make a go of it in a borderline location."
"Borderline" location? Are you kidding me? That's one of prime shopping/eating areas in Walnut Creek.
"A world flag signifies a COUNTRY, not a political party or ideology."
In this case it actually does represent the communist revolution and Communism.
"Borderline" location? Are you kidding me? That's one of prime shopping/eating areas in Walnut Creek."
Wrong, it's a bit past where most of the prime locations are. Not much foot traffic at all. If what you say is true, why has there been 5-6 other restaurants fail in this location?
10:50,
Thanks! The only places worth eating in Walnut Creek are McDonalds and Il Pavone in Saranap. McDonalds isn't overpriced, and Il Pavone is overpriced, but the food is decent. All of the other restaurants? Blech.
If I was going to go out to eat based on the quality of the food, I wouldn't be going to ANY Walnut Creek restaurant.
I have all my spots. Best Mexican in Contra Costa is in East County. Best Chinese is in Oakland. I haven't found any Chinese in Contra Costa that's fit for human consumption.
Oooh, oooh. WC has a newer Le Cheval. I eat at the Oakland Le Cheval often. Good food, sometimes flaky service. How is that if anyone's tried it?
"If what you say is true, why has there been 5-6 other restaurants fail in this location?"
Because they were not well run. Just like this Chinese restaurant is, except the food there is even worse than the others like Crepevine. Why has Le Bistro not gone out of business? Why is La Scala doing so well?
"The only places worth eating in Walnut Creek are McDonalds and Il Pavone in Saranap."
Yeah, WCYC and Va de Vi are crap, right? Why don't you get out of Rossmoor more often and go to a real restaurant.
2:42,
I don't live in Rossmoor -- I'm not old enough. I don't live in Walnut Creek or Saranap, but I am a neighbor. Tried all of the restaurants, and they're all crappy and overpriced. Most Contra Costa restaurants are overpriced and leave much to be desired. I'll drive out to go to a good restaurant or stay at home.
Tsk, tsk, tsk to you on your insult against the elderly Rossmoor residents. I've been in there, and I like 'em. Why do you dislike them? Because they're old or because they wield too much power for you?
Hey 7:39,
Leave your lame 'grow a pair' somewhere else. It didn't work on the Claycord blog and it didn't work here. Do you have undescended testicles or something?
Hey 7:39,
Leave your lame 'grow a pair' somewhere else. It didn't work on the Claycord blog and it didn't work here. Do you have undescended testicles or something?
More Americans eat Chinese food every day than eat apple pie.
There are more Chinese restaurants in the US than McDonalds, Burger King and Kentucky Fried Chicken combined (per TED conference speaker).
These people came and opened a restaurant in WC for a reason. Probably the same reason ALL your ancestors came to the United States.
Get over this ignorance. By all means go to Il Pavone, probably no heinous Italian flags there...hey didn't Italians throw Christians to the lions...GASP! OMG Down with Pasta!
You're right. It is not the "American" flag...it is the flag of the goddamn "United States of America"...and if you don't like it, you can get the f#@K out! Bunch of wimps.
Flags are seriously symbolic. There is much ceremony and propriety built around them. Read up on it before you make up your mind.
Showing both flags shows pride in your culture and appreciation for the opportunity and rights you have as a participant in our great economy (choke choke hack hack)
Well, at least YOUR name is correct.
Why is this even a controversy? It's the national flag of the People's Republic outside a Chinese restaurant. For all China's faults (of which there are many, along the lines of environmental policies, human rights, animal welfare, etc.), it's not exactly a rogue nation. The restaurant employs people, pays taxes, and contributes to the city. What more do people want? And it's not as though the U.S. has a spotless human rights record. ... If you like the restaurant's food, eat there. If you don't, don't. Frankly, some of the objections to the flag make me want to go out of my way to eat there.
I have mixed feelings about this, but I do not think it's worth a resurgence in Cold War emotions.
Just a few points.
1. We need the Chinese as much as they need us. This helps keep us from ever fighting a war with them.
2. Remember that it is the Chinese Government that is currently funding the genocide in the Darfur region while they drill out their oil - (which is why the US does nothing). And don't forget Tibet either.
3. They have the right to fly their flag, and I have a right to burn one and stomp all over it too!
4. Chinese food is damn good.
5. You also have a right to boycot the resturant.
6. We should not be wasting valuable time over an irrelivant subject as this.
7. I am glad that we have Chinese people living in our country. They make decent neighbors and they don't go around dealing drugs, stealing, trashing the neighborhood or having drive by shootings. For the most part Chinese people are meek. I don't support their government, but the people are actually pretty nice. I can't even say that about my own country - The USA.
I don't agree with #6, but your argument #4 has changed my opinion.
I'd just like some clarification on the note post by Sinn Feiner which said -.
???
So does that mean you feel that China's policies are the ones we here in the States should be trying to emulate? That China has the best way of dealing with any expression that does not have governmental sanctification?
I rather think I prefer the way we here allow people to have an opinion, regardless of whether it toes the correct political line or not. (Though I've noted that being allowed free speech is something that is becoming more frowned upon daily.)
DumbAsBricks
Their food is good, but they have a long way to go in learning how to brew beer.
Or drive a car.
They imprison without due process, they torture, they spy on their own citizens, they suppress civil rights, they...oh wait...that's the US until Obama!
OK. There are a few Americans that feel that a Chinese person flying the Chinese flag somehow diminishes the American flag.
It's obvious that this has nothing to do with the Chinese people or their flag.
Dear Anon 9:26:
Deleting your post. It's annoying, but I suppose that's why you continue posting it. Ha ha ha.
Anyway, I'm going to Sleepy Town now. Big day tomorrow. Gotta clean out the garage and stuff like that. I lead such a glamorous life.
I suppose I'm flattered that you'd take the time to post comments that I'll keep deleting when they come to my attention.
In any event, nightie-night. Hope you have sweet dreams, too..
Sorry, my username isn't working.
Sincerely,
Revcoco.
Revcoco
The first step in taking over a country usually starts with changing the language. When a country is conquered a new flag is typically raised. Inconsequential? I guess the question is "What language and flag matters to you?"
Revcoco
Revcoco
All our flags are now owned by China? They were probably all made there. But, do you ever wonder why they are so concerned about our economy??? Let's see, we have their cheap flags and they have our...
Revcoco
Ching Chong Bing Bong.
Arl your frag are berong to us.
Hey,
They took it down. I saw this blog post on claycord.com but had not seen the flag until I read this. I noticed it was there for a couple weeks and now for the last week it has been gone. |
me and my sister Clair
This past weekend I turned 35. You know how some people say that they don't feel their age? I'm not one of those people. ;) I celebrated with my sis, who also shares my birthday. No cake was involved (it's way too hot to bake) but there was LOTS of ice cream. I may or may not have had ice cream 3 times on Sunday, including my husband's favorite recipe. YUM! It was a good, good day.
In belated celebration of my official stance in the middle aged club, I'm hosting a give away. Today I have not one, but TWO roll ups to give away, compliments of Robert Kaufman fabrics. Thank you, Rob! (LOL!!!!!!!!!)
In belated celebration of my official stance in the middle aged club, I'm hosting a give away. Today I have not one, but TWO roll ups to give away, compliments of Robert Kaufman fabrics. Thank you, Rob! (LOL!!!!!!!!!)
One is in the dusty color story, which is quite lovely.
The other one is in the classic color story. It's bright and fun and cheery.
Either way, you can't go wrong.
If you would like to win, leave me a comment. In your comment, tell me what your favorite flavor of ice cream is. My favorite flavor would have to be coffee....with a brownie mixed in. Mmmmm, mmmm!
I will pick two separate winners. Only one comment per person. I'll pick a winner on Saturday...after my garage sale. Oh, yeah, the fun never ends around here. :)
1323 comments:«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 1323 Newer› Newest»
Happy Birthday! It sounds like it was a good one. My favorite "ice cream" flavor is actually raspberry sorbet with chocolate chips... call me crazy!
Pralines and Cream!
My favorite ice cream is Ben and Jerry's Imagine Whirled Peace. Caramel & Sweet Cream Ice cream swirled with fudge peace signs and toffee cookie pieces. Soooo good.
Happy Birthday!
I happen to live in Utah where I've heard we consume the MOST ice cream than anywhere else in the US. Who knows. Anyway, my favorite is banana carmel crunch from Coldstone. It is fabulous with banana ice cream too. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
My absolut favourite ice-cream "flavour" is vanilla with jello smashed up in it...weird maybe but it brings me back to my childhood.
If that was not an option I would have to say Orange float flavour.
Tennile B
Vanilla with a piece of chocolate cake mixed in!
Happy birthday! My favorite ice cream flavor is Ben & Jerry's Oatmeal Cookie Crunch!
My absolute favorite, hands down, is my grandfather's handmade vanilla ice cream. There is nothing else like it on Earth...and I've tried hard to find a comparison! :-)
Happy Birthday!!
Happy Belated Birthday! Love the pic of you and your sis. As a summer baby, I appreciate a good ice cream celebration! As far as favorites, they change...often. My current fave is peach (with frozen peaches in it) mixed with Vanilla Bean. It sounds odd, but it's SO good!
Happy Birthday! My favorite ice cream by far is Cookies and Cream by Breyers- it's the best!
Chocolate fudge brownie!
Ben and Jerry's Chocolate Fudge Brownie...or a local Herrell's Burnt Sugar and Butter...or better yet, both together!! Happy birthday!
Chocolate fudge brownie!
Happy Birthday! I'm a huge fan of chocolate w/peanut butter chunks & cookie dough. Now I'm hungry! :-/
My favorite flavor is mint Oreo. I used to only do Ben and Jerry's but recently I discovered a Dryers Grand that is delish! Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday. It sounds like you had a great day.
Since moving to Texas, my favorite ice cream is Blue Bell's Moo-llennium Crunch, a vanilla ice cream with a combination of dark chocolate chunks, creamy caramel chunks, roasted pecan halves, chopped almonds and walnut pieces.
Happy birthday! Love the fabric, especially the dusty colorway. My favorite ice cream is vanilla with hot fudge on it! :0)
Happy Birthday! My favorite ice cream is vanilla with choc syrup, choc chips, coconut and pecans mixed in and sometimes a banana sliced on top too!
definitely grape ice cream :)
Rhubarb crumble ice-cream...it's truly scumpcious and of course totally good for you because of the rhubarb in it ;-)
Mmmmm-probably oreo but I do love a good vanilla
Happy Birthday ! I love Breyers vanilla and chocolate.
love vanilla, or chocolate peanut butter cup. Yum!
My fave is cake batter ice cream. Coffee ice cream is tasty, but the caffeine keeps me up at night! Happy 35!
Happy Birthday! My favorite ice cream is Rocky Road.
is it ok that it's not exactly ice cream? I just love raspberry sorbet!
Happy Birthday! I'm a big fan of chocolate almond ice cream.
Strangely, I only like ice cream when I'm pregnant and then Peanut Butter Cup is the best! I'd rather have a homemade chocolate chip cookie all the rest of my life.
Happy Birthday! Love your quilts!
there's this ice cream company based out of santa barbara and they make the most amazing peppermint stick ice cream. i'm not a fan of peppermint candy, but this ice cream is just so yummy! once we move from LA i'm really going to miss being able to get it at the store.
but if i'm being entirely honest, i rarely thumb my nose at any ice cream. :)
happy birthday! i turned 30 a couple of weeks ago.
Yummm....homemade strawberry ice cream. I may have to stop by the grocery store on the way home.
Thanks for the chance to win!
Happy birthday! My favorite ice cream is kulfi. yum!
My mother in law's stem ginger with chocolate chunks ice cream is absolutely amazing. I am drooling just thinking of it.
Happy birthday!!
right now my fave flavor is chocolate chip cookie dough, breyers brand. happy birthday!!!
Happy Birthday!
My favourite would have to be chocolate fudge brownie flavour, with some rum and raisin too! Love it.
Sal. X
Happy Birthday! I love mint chocolate chip. Yumm!
Happy belated birthday!!! My all-time favourite ice cream is green tea, which my boyfriend thinks is disgusting... well, he doesn't know what he's been missing! Thanks for the giveaway!!
Happy Birthday!!!!
My favorite is Peach...homemade of course!
Thanks for the chance to win!!
Hey Amanda, Happy Birthday! Any day with ice cream is a good day. And my favorite? Chocolate, hands down! Have a great Birthday week!
I'd have to say Rainbow Sherbet. I LOVE IT! Happy Birthday!
My favorite- Blue Bell homemade vanilla with raspberries on it!
happy birthday!!
my favorite is vanilla with caramel swirl. mmmmm
Depends on the brand. Central Dairy is our local ice cream maker and they make one called Birthday Cake. It's my favorite when I can find it.
You are a twin? My favorite ice cream is a blueberry sorbet made in our ice cream maker with lots of blueberries and buttermilk!! YUM. I just looked at these jelly rolls this morning - drooling....
Happy birthday :)
Hands down, my favorite is mint chocolate chip. No brand can get it wrong, so it will be reliably delicious for the rest of my life!
spumoni!
my favorite flavor is salted caramel from molly moons in seattle.
happy birthday!
My favorite flavor is a salted, burnt caramel ice cream. I had it once in Nice and my husband has managed to nearly re-create it (a little too salty still, but darned close). Sigh. I need some!
I'd love a chance to win. Happy belated birthday.
Happy Birthday, you are in great age company ;-). I love either English Toffee or coffee fudge, yum :-) But it's a bit too cold here for that at the mo, I'll eat some cake for you. TTFN
anything with chocolate!
My favorite homemade is rich vanilla... lots of eggs in it.
My favorite bought ice cream is Blue Bell coffee flavored.
YUM! Happy birthday!
Kat
Happy Birthday!
I think I have to go with cookie dough. It's the random chunks of delicious that keep you searching for more.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
I love tart FroYo :-)
Happy birthday! I'm not eating much icecream at the moment... It's the middle of winter here.
Happy Birthday! :-)
Ice cream? Definitively chocolate! My all time favorite!
Green Tea Ice Cream - Delicious!
Belated happy birthday to you and your sister! I, too, love coffee ice cream, but my favorite ice cream ever is from childhood - a homemade caramel ice cream that was made by a friend's family cook for the annual Fourth of July celebration we had at the lake! Wish I has a bowl now!!!
Happy Birthday!
My fav ice cream flavor is chocolate butter fudge...I grew up in a family that had the local dairy that packaged milk and ice cream and it was our specialty. (Look up Ritchey's Dairy in Martinsburg, PA if you are ever travelling through central PA!)
I spent years dipping ice cream in the local shop and I came up with some fun combinations with the girls...like if you mix chocolate butter fudge with orange sherbet it tastes like a tootsie roll. oh, ice cream...not the same since I moved away!
Happy Birthday! I use to think coffee was my favorite flavor but then Ben & Jerries started making coffee heath bar crunch and I am in love with it. Hope you had a great birthday!
Happy Birthday!! My favorite flavor of ice cream is Coffee with chocolate swirls...It is nice to see your shining face...
You're a twin? How fun!
I don't think I could possibly choose just one flavor. It all depends on my mood. Mint-chocolate chip, coffee, Ben & Jerry's Chubby Hubby. I could go on and on...ice cream is my all time favorite dessert. It never disappoints.
Happy Birthday!
My favorite is plain 'ole vanilla... sometimes with caramel topping.
Chocolate with brownie pieces. Yummy!
Happy birthday and enjoy the mid 30's.
[email protected]
Happy Birthday! I would have to day my favorite Ice Cream is White Cake Ice_cream with MMs, Snickers and Kit-Kat. Yes it's a very rich ice-cream, I only get it for special stuff.
Happy birthday! I've got a couple of favorites - Tiger's Tail (orange with a dark chocolate ribbon) from a local ice cream shop, and Double Chocolate Malted Crunch - from Thrifty drug store. Does anybody remember the square ice cream scoops for a quarter? I think RiteAid carries this flavor now, since Thrifty is no more.
happy birthday!!!!
vanilla bean with a warm brownie:) yummmo
I LOVE ice cream but it would be vanilla !! With mini chips mixed in!!! OK hot fudge, whipped cream and a cherry!! But vanilla !!!
Happy happy birthday! How fun! My favorite ice cream is Blue Bell Pistachio Almond. We'll go have some when you're here in November! And, of, course, thanks for the chance to win!
homemade blackberry is wonderful.
[email protected]
Happy belated birthday! My favorite ice cream is definitely homemade dulce de leche gelato. I only make it a few times a year because it takes so long but it's worth it!
Now you have me wanting to make some...
Chocolate Chip Peanut Butter Twirl,but the company doesn't make it anymore :-( I miss it so! I had M&M icecream on the way back from the Lake today, and it wasn't the same!
Thanks for celebrating your birthday with us! I like plain ole soft serve vanilla. Now if I could get soft serve coffee-flavored, I might change my mind!
carrielucekc at gmail.com
Happy Birthday!
My favorite ice cream flavor is cinnamon! I love it in the fall on top of something baked with apples (like apple crisp, apple dumplings, or apple pie). Yum!
Happy Birthday! My favorite is Chocolate Hazelnut Gelatto...mmmmm!
Great giveaway!
I'm a fan of vanilla, because it doesn't clash with any toppings, so you can keep a tub in the freezer and add whatever your whim decides at a moment's notice!
[email protected]
My favorite flavor? Ben and Jerry's Milk and Cookies! I hope you have a Happy Birthday.
My favorite is mint chocolate chip...yum! Happy Birthday!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!
My latest favorite is chocolate chip cookie dough.
Happy Birthday!!
My favorite changes pretty often but right now it would be Tillamook's Chocolate Peanut Butter. Mmmmm, big chunks of PB in there.
My favourite ice cream flavour is vanilla. Just plain, delicious, good quality vanilla ice cream. Yum!
Happy Birthday! I hope you love the middle age club!
My favorite ice cream is Dreyer's Crunchy cone. yum....wish I had some. A good substitute(and much leaner) would be one of those yummy fabric rolls!
This is going to sound sacrilegious to admit that I never crave ice cream (don't make me into a saint or anything special--I crave LOTS of other stuff). Does that put me out of the running for prizes?
Okay,if I HAVE to choose, it would be something like Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia, or cake batter.
Haha, my word verification is chese (spelled wrong but close enough). Okay, NOW we're talkin'.
Happy Birthday! And by the way, the definition of middle age grows higher the older you get! And you are definitely NOT middle aged yet!
My absolute favorite ice cream can only be bought in Hawaii, though they will ship it to the mainland by special order! It's called Haupia & it's a rich creamy coconut made by Roselani on Maui! It is truly scrumptious!
My favorite is Blue Bell's Brownie Fudge Nut WHICH THEY HAVE NOT MADE FOR 2 YEARS! As soon as I get serious about a diet I'll find it.
i'm going to have to go with chocolate. with some chocolate mixed in. maybe with some chocolate sauce on top.
ok, ok, sometimes i eat peanut butter. in my chocolate. or raspberries. in my chocolate. or mint. in my chocolate. =)
Happy birthday!!! My favorite flavor would have to be Rocky Road. Yum!!!!!
Have a great garage sale!
Oh, I love ice cream. Especially now that I am pregnant again :) (then I have an excuse to eat all I want. I think my favorite changes each time I try something new but as of right now I really like blueberry pomegranate with chocolate chunks. Yummy :)
My favourite is vanilla (made with buttermilk). Here is Australia we have a brand called Blue Ribbon and it is our family's favourite.
Happy Birthday to you and your sis!!! Me, my husband and My sister all share the same birthday! FUN!!! I happen to love Ben and Jerry's Coffee Toffee Crunch. I love ice cream!!!
I love coffee ice cream!
My favorite flavor would be vanilla with chocolate syrup but my favorite way to eat ice cream is as a dairy queen heath blizzard!
Happy Birthday! My favorite flavor of ice cream is cinnamon!! YUM!
Man, I recently had the best ice cream in Myrtle Beach--I think from a place called Fat Matt's. Some kind of wonderful peanut butter ice cream with peanut butter cookie dough and caramel. Oh my heavens, it was fab! =)
Thanks so much for such a great giveaway!
Happy Birthday!
Mint chocolate chip!
Thanks for the chance!
Happy Birthday!
I don't think you can go wrong with ice cream, I'll eat just about any kind -- but if I *must* choose I'll go with peanut butter cup!
I love ice cream AmandaJean- I am not sure what my favorite flavor is but my favorite flavors are maple walnut, butter pecan, raspberry cheesecake and strawberry and vanilla ice cream with fresh berries. How is that for choices.LOL
I hope you have had a fabulous birthday - Our family tradition for birthdays is ice cream cake from Dairy Queen as none of us are big cake fans but love ice cream.
Thank you for the fantastic giveaway- the colors are really lovely- Your winners are going to have great fun playing with those rich colorful strips.
Warmest regards,
Anna
Hope the garage sale is a large success too.
Happy b day to both of you! I Love cookies n cream...yummm maybe I'll go get some now! :)
WHat a beautiful jellyroll.
My favourite flavor ice cream are pistache and bleuberry
Happy birthday!
Fleur de sel caramel - swoon :)
Oh you just HAD to get me thinking about ice cream ... didn't you! My absolute favorite is at Coldstone Creamery coffee lover's only. Coffee ice cream with heath bar, caramel and almonds. Mmmmmmm ....
Happy Birthday! Thirty five is a great age!
happy birthday !!
ok, i'm in, my favorite icecream flavor would be "dulce de leche" [which would be milk cooked with sugar and vanilla over a slow fire for a few hours until it turns brown and with the consistency of a cream]
have a nice day...!
Ben and Jerry's Half Baked.
Oh man, my favorite ice cream is peanut butter & chocolate. These rolls scream BARGELLO!
Happy Birthday! My favorite is Tiger (Orange and Licorice) but since I can't find that anymore I love Creamsicle ice cream...
Happy Birthday! My favorite ice cream is mocha fudge. I also love soft serve vanilla.
I love homemade strawberry ice cream! My mother in law has the best recipe we have it almost every Sunday throughout the summer!! But Basically I love ice cream all together!
i'm obsessed with riesling poached pear at our local jeni's splendid ice cream here in columbus. **drool**
Hmmm ... I think my favorite would be praline. Yum!! Happy Birthday!!
happy birthday!!!
Chocolate chip is definitely my favorite - and Graeter's ice cream is by far and away my favorite brand. I love the giant chocolate chunks!
Ice cream! Yum! Is there a bad flavor? If pressed, I'd have to go with Hudsonville's Moose Tracks! Sorry, it's only found in Michigan!
I've never met an ice cream flavor I didn't like (except maybe the pineapple licorice one a friend and I made in high school). But if I had to pick a favorite, it would probably be Strawberry Cheesecake--yum! Anyway, happy, happy birthday!
Susan V.
I'm gonna have to try the coffee ice cream recipe, you posted, for my husband. I, on the other hand, absolutely adore peppermint ice cream. the kind with the candies in it. I've only found it in the winter - Dreyers should make it year round :0) just for me! ha ha
Happy Belated Birthday.
feliz cumpleaños Amanda!
that photo is great, and looks like a very lovely sisters who have fun together!
my fav fravor is cinnamon! ohh pure blis!
and many many thanks for the chance!!
Happy Birthday, and oh, to be 35 again! Favorite ice cream? I looked at that recipe for the coffee ice cream and that sounds like a contender. I love homemade peach and store-bought bing cherry.
Jamoca Almond Fudge from Baskin Robbins. It's got coffee, chocolate swirls AND almonds. YUMMMM!
mocha almond fudge :-)
half baked---Ben and Jerry's. It is a combination of cookie dough, brownie bites, and yumminess. [email protected]
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! to you and your sister. My favorite flavor icecream is Ben & Jerry's "Chunky Monkey"! Wooweeee!!!
hugz, Pam
Happy Birthday!
My favorite flavor of ice cream is cookie and cream.
beccaabug
My favorite ice cream is mint chocolate chip! Baskin robbins has the best!
Oh, I just celebrated my 35th birthday too! Happy Birthday!
I would have to say that my favorite ice cream is the homemade vanilla that I just made, but a close second is the Hershey's brand chocolate moose tracks ice cream I had while I was at home back east for my birthday.
Pistacio, yummmmmmm
Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday you young thing!
My favorite flavor of ice cream is chocolate.
My favorite ice cream is Coffee Chocolate Chip (jamocha almond fudge doesn't count)...but I only know one place to get it, a tiny little ice cream shop in Capitola (that is south of Santa Cruz, CA. I don't get there often even though it is only an hour drive LOL
Happy Birthday :) I had a birthday too this past week :)
I love frozen berry yogurt but homemade shortbread on the side, yum.
x
cinnamon, definately... when we lived in Chicago, it was definately the Oberwiess cinnamon!!!!
Happy Belated Birthday! My son celebrated his 8th on Jolly July 3rd!
Happy Birthday! my favorite this week is Cherry Nut..my grandma used to have it at her house when we would spend the night so good memories!
Cookies and Cream.
Happy Birthday
Happy Birthday! My fav is a long forgotten flavor called Wild Berry Bumble Crumble...yummy!
I love giveaways! :-D My favorite kind of ice cream is Peanut Butter and Chocolate from Baskin Robbins. Yum!!!
mmm ice cream .. pistachio, chocolate, burnt almond fudge, tin roof sundae, fried ice cream, mint, pumpkin, mocha, double fudge brownie, death by chocolate, rocky road, etc, etc. .. pretty much any flavor is my favorite flavor :0)
Happy Birthday! Two favorites - coffee and mint chip!
Mmmmh I like blackberry and cashew icecream (Baskin Robins has it sometimes as a special) So good!
Happy Belated! How is it that WE get something for YOUR birthday? Lucky us :)
Fav ice cream - hmmm...it depends on the day - it's either tiger tiger or some sort of coffee flavoured one. Though mint chocolate chip has had a recent resurgence for me.
I love ice cream with surprise bits in it.
Sometimes, I'll buy a tub of good vanilla ice cream, let it soften a little and add some cookie dough, chopped up chocolates, maybe some marshmallows, and anything else I can think of. Then re-freeze (its nice in a mould) and serve as a dessert.
Divine!!!
Happy Belated Birthday! Eating ice cream with your sis sounds like a great way to celebrate! (& a giveaway is nice too!)
My favorite ice cream would probably be mint chocolate chip...yum!
Thrifty rainbow sherbert! Mmm brings back memories of riding my bike to thriftys and getting an icecream cone, when it was less than a dollar!
Happy Birthday! I don't feel my age either - it's just a number.
Strawberry Cheese Cake!!!
Happy Birthday Girls! My favorite ice cream is Ben and Jerry's "Coffee Toffee Crunch"! So bad but oh so good!
Mocha Chip. Yum. Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday!!
I have two favorites! My main one is a kind that I have only found made by the generic company that supplies to our local grocery store. It's "White chocolate raspberry Truffle" and is amazing! Just enough sweet, fruit, and chocolate with out being overwhelming!
If I can't find that one, i love Spumoni :)
Happy Birthday!
My favorite ice cream is my husband's nutty coconut homemade ice cream! Super yummy!
Butter pecan is the current favorite. . . .but when I was a kid, Dad would get out the old churn , buy a block of ice, smash the ice in a burlap bag with the side of the ax, and then we would CHURN. Best in those days was the homemade strawberry. . .maybe partly because there wasn't enough but for a small portion.
Happy birthday! I cannot pick just one ice cream. Chocolate, vanilla bean, peanut butter, mint, coconut, cake batter, fruity. I LOVE ice cream (as in we served it at our wedding instead of cake). I will take a pass on your favorite, though- not a fan of coffee.
OOps...I forgot to mention my favorite flavor of ice cream....I love BlackRaspberry Chocolate Chunk made by Graeter's in Cincinnati...it is my downfall.
Mint chocolate chip...and happy birthday!
Definitely homemade strawberry ice cream!!
And 1975 was a very nice year...LOL...I just turned 35 two weeks ago. Happy Birthday!!
Mint Chip forever!!
Happy Birthday Amanda Jean & Clair.
My favorite ice cream is coffee with chocolate syrup! Yummy. I will be celebrating my birthday this Sunday with my sister Ann, we also share the same day - we're twins.
Congrats on your birthday! Thank you for celebrating with us. I know it is boring but just regular chocolate ice cream is my favorite.
My favorite has to be Peach!
Rusty Miller
My favorite ice cream is licorice! I love it when you can find it at an ice cream shop in pink, but I won't pass it up if it's black, hehe. It's worth having black lips and tongue for! Hope you had a great birthday!!!
Happy Birthday! It IS hot out there, isn't it? Favorite flavor - or flavorite - Strawberry. Classic, simple, delish!
Happy Birthday! Ok, I have to pick just one? I guess I'll go with mint chocolate chip. Or chocolate chip cookie dough. Or... :-) Thanks for a terrific giveaway!
My favorite is Chocolate Almond with Hersey's Fudge Sauce and more almonds on top!
Happy birthday to you and your sis! Favourite ice cream flavour you ask? that is so hard to choose, there are so many, but one of my all time favourites is Tiger Tail...orange, vanilla and black licorce.
chocolate mocha....and happy birthday!
I have a killer recipe for pistachio ice cream - love it! Happy Birthday!
oh man. i turned 35 this past january. at the time i didn't about the whole middle-aged thing but now that you say it...oh man.
Fav ice cream? Strawberry. What can I say? I'm a simpleton. :)
Happy Birthday! My favourite ice cream is strawberry. I'm a classic kind of girl! Thanks for the chance to win.
Chocolate Chip with Cookie Dough!!
Happy belated birthday! The roll ups are beautiful. My favorite ice cream is German Chocolate. Yummy
Anything with chocolate is my fav. Happy Birthday by the way.
Ice cream 3 times in one day? Sounds like an awesome birthday to me! My favorite ice cream has always been Baskin-Robbins Daiquiri Ice. I remember getting it for the first time when I was about 5 years old because it was blue. :)
Wonderful! I love mint chocolate chip : ) Thanks for the giveaway and happy birthday!
Happy Birthday! :) Ice cream 3 times in one day sounds like a graet way to celebrate! :)
My favorite ice cream is banana. YUM!
My all time favorite is Rocky Road...but it HAS to be Blue Bell Rocky Road, nothing else compares!
Happy Birthday
My favorite flavor of ice cream is Raspberry Lemon. Yummmmm.
Happy birthday! German Chocolate Cake by Tillamook is my favorite - although most of the other suggestions sound pretty good right now!
Butter Pecan. so good!
Happy Birthday! I too am one who is feeling my age, but it is 51 and not 35 ... I love all ice cream but today I'm thinking Coffee Heathbar Crunch (Ben & Jerry's).
I'm an equal opportunity ice cream eater and love lots of flavors but my favorite lately has been caramel swirl.
My favorite is Moose Tracks!!! Happy Birthday - thanks for writing such an inspiring blog!
my favorite is chocolate with walnuts...yum!
Happy birthday! My favorite ice cream would have to be chocolate moose tracks, but chocolate chip cookie dough is a close second.
My favorite ice cream flavor for in a cone is licorice.
You are talking about my FAVORITE subject! ICE CREAM! My absolute favorite flavor was Graham Slam by Mayfield - it was graham cracker flavored ice cream with chocolate crunch pieces - I say "was" because they no longer make this flavor. I still look for it every time I pass by the ice cream in the store, though, because one time it made a very brief reappearance! My new favorite flavor is Triple Brownie (Kroger's Private Selection).
Happy birthday! Middle aged? Nah, you're just 20 with 15 years of experience! =D
Happy Birthday Amanda Jean!!!
Those roll-ups are lovely, especially the dusty one.
Ice cream...mmm...I like coffee too, and when I have a nice creamy vanilla I always think that it just can't be beaten, but my very favourite is peppermint choc-chip. Yum!
Not to be a copycat, but my favorite is coffee too-- But I'll see your brownie and raise you- a scoop of Nutella!!! To. Die. For.
Happy, happy birthday! Thanks for sharing with us!
As far as ice-cream goes, we love vanilla with ovaltine and butterfinger mixed in.
Sounds weird, but it's just plain delicious!
Have you tried Eddy's (Dryer's in the west) French Silk? Its hard to find but its mocha with big fat chocolate chunks......the best. :) Happy b-day! -Al
My absolute favorite flavor of icecream is cake batter with cookie dough mixed in and caramel.
Great, now I want Cold Stone! On the bright side, we're planning on buying an icecream maker so soon I'll have all the yummy icecream I could ever want!
I LOVE cookie dough ice cream. . . mmmmmmm! Happy Birthday!
Leisel
My birthday was SUNDAY!
I like daiquiri ice (I am lactose intolerant), or frozen banana smoothies.
L~
My favorite ice cream is Half Baked by Ben and Jerry's. It's vanilla ice cream, chocolate ice cream with cookie dough chunks and brownie chunks.
Good grief, I'm on a diet and now I'm hungry! ;)
Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday, Kinda weird, but my favorite ice cream is Birthday Cake Ice cream. Complete with sprinkles.
Happy Birthday. And 35 is definitely not middle-age. That would make 60 old age. :) My favorite ice cream is chocolate mint with Mocha Almond Fudge running in second place.
Happy birthday, enjoy. My favorite ice cream is Mint Chocolate Chip, a green color, used to be made by a local creamery that I think has gone out of business. I used to buy it in 5 gallon containers! Thanks for the giveawayl..
I live in cincinnati and love the black raspberry chip-yum declicious. Sounds like you had a great birthday. life just gets better with age and so do our quilts.
Happy Birthday! My fave is chocolate, preferably w/ a tablespoon of peanut on the side.
My absolute favorite ice cream is Haagan Daaz Caramel Cone. It's caramel icecream wit crispy chocolate covered waffle cones inside. Um . . . to DIE FOR!! :)
Happy birthday!! I love (almost) all flavors of ice cream, but my all time top of the list favorite is mint chocolate chip. lately though, I've been digging vanilla with a dash of cinnamon and caramel. yum.
Happy 35th Birthday. I hope it was special for you. My favorite ice cream that comes out near my birthday (December) is Peppermint Stick Ice Cream by Dryers then I add crushed Oreo Cookies on top. YUM! YUM!
I'll have to go with Ben & Jerry's Creme Brulee!
Happy Birthday! My favorite ice cream flavor is blue moon, much to the chagrin of my husband, who has a much more sophisticated palate than I do. :o) And 35 is NOT middle-aged! I'm 31 so I don't want to think that I'm that close to it!!!
Happy Birthday! I'm turning 34 next week. It seems like it'll be a fun year.
Haupia (Hawaiian coconut dessert). Sadly, I think you can only get in in Hawaii - at Dave's....their peach is pretty tastey too.
Happy Birthday to you and your sis! How fun! My favorite would have to be Strawberry! Has been since I was a little girl!
Happy Birthday! 35 is a great age. I am an old 35. You are a young 35. My favorite ice cream is Chocolate Coconut. Ginger and chocolate are tied for a close second.
My favorite ice cream flavor is a toss up between Final Four Fudge Dribble, which is vanilla ice cream with whoppers in it; and Omer Tracks, which has m&ms and chocolate covered waffle cone in a vanilla and caramel ice cream. Both are products of the Michigan State University Dairy Store. My husband and I both work there. I'm fortunate (not in the waist size) to work for the College of Agriculture and Natural Resources, where said Dairy Store resides. And, yes, sometimes I get free ice cream (much to my pants' dismay). Thanks for hosting a giveaway! And, happy birthday! (35 isn't really middle aged, neither is 39 which is what I'll be for the rest of my life!)
Happy Birthday! Our whole family looooves Umpqua peanut butter chocolate ice cream. But my hands down fave is my homemade Mint Junior Mint. I'm salivating a little as I type it....it's that good! Thanks for the chance to win - I'm just starting to get more adventurous with solids and all the kona colors are so beautiful. |
Jon Whipple’s comprehensive comparison of DrawIt, Acorn, and Pixelmator. This is one of the best “let’s compare and contrast a few apps in the same category” reviews I’ve seen in a long time.
Christopher Lenz: “As I haven’t seen anyone writing much about the state of Python development on Mac OS X Leopard, here’s a quick rundown.” (Via Simon Willison.)
Adrian Sutton:.
From the book of “It’s Only Funny Because It’s True”.
Bruce Tognazzini, back in 1989:.
I read this long ago in Tognazzini’s Tog on Interface, and have been looking for a URL to it for years. Found it via the aforelinked article by Scott Stevenson.
Scott Stevenson:
If Leopard shipped and it looked essentially the same as Tiger, I think most non-programmers would pass it by. At first glance in screenshots and the back of the box, potential buyers would not see any signs of change, and therefore would not see any hope of new experiences which justify the cost. This would do a great disservice to the mountain of improvements in the underlying system.
Intego Security on a Trojan hosted on porno sites, that tricks users into thinking they’re installing a QuickTime video codec that will allow them to watch free videos:.
(Via Macworld.)
Good post by Ted Leung on Java 6 and Leopard.
Bug-fix update to Bare Bones’s flagship text editor.
Science fiction comes to life: $99 2 GB SD memory card with built-in Wi-Fi. Can be configured to upload photos automatically to your computer and to web sites like Flickr.
AppleScript one-liner to tell Time Machine to begin a backup.
Update: Via Twitter, Chuck La Tournous point out that Time Machine’s Dock icon contextual menu has a “Back Up Now” command.
Client license still doesn’t allow for it, though.
Wonderful report by Thomas Ptacek on the security-related changes and additions in Leopard; must-read if you’re at all interested in Mac OS X security.
Great timeline compiled by Eric Burke:
It is perfectly clear that Apple releases major JDK updates on, or shortly after, major OS updates. I believe we will see Java SE 6 on Leopard within days or weeks.
And:
Anyone wanting a faster JDK release cycle on OS X will have to look to someone other than Apple to give it to them.
James Gosling:
Lots of folks ask “why doesn’t sun just do the JDK for Mac?”. The real answer is “because Apple wanted to do it”. They’ve wanted to do all sorts of customization and integration that only they could do — because they own the OS..
The bastards at OAK have taken two mini Leatherman tools from me; now they’re selling them on eBay. (Via Nat Irons.)
Java on Mac OS X has gotten so bad that James Gosling, creator of Java and Sun’s developer platform CTO, has switched from a MacBook to a notebook running Solaris. What an outrage that the best platform to develop for Sun’s Java is Sun’s own operating system. Sounds great:
There is one area that’s a problem: when I close the lid on my laptop, it keeps right on running. It doesn’t suspend. I have to manually shut the system down.
This one sentence alone makes it a major upgrade:
AppleScript is now entirely Unicode-based.
But there’s a ton of additional good stuff — I think it’s safe to say this really is a “2.0” release, the biggest linguistic upgrade to AppleScript ever. (Still no sign of the updated AppleScript Language Guide promised by Apple, though.)
Archrival to USB Overdrive from Japan; also $20.
I’m getting a lot of email asking what Logitech mouse owners should do if they want to use their extra buttons but who don’t want to install Logitech’s APE-powered Control Central software (which doesn’t work entirely on Leopard, because APE doesn’t yet work on Leopard).
I’ve been using Alessandro Levi Montalcini’s $20 USB Overdrive for years. In addition to giving you additional control over buttons, it allows you to set far faster mouse tracking speeds than Apple’s mouse driver. If you’re frustrated that Mac OS X’s fastest mouse speed is still too slow, USB Overdrive is worth a look. The latest version is certified Leopard compatible and adds support for Bluetooth mice.
There does seem to be a karmic element to the fact that some problematic Leopard upgrades — even if they’re not Apple’s fault — result in a “blue screen”.
I fail to see why anyone (other than Java developers themselves) would care.
Fantastic comic contest between Kevin Cornell and Matthew Sutter.
John Nack on a survey of 1,026 professional photographers in North America regarding their RAW processing software:
-%).
What’s really interesting is that Lightroom’s use among Mac-using photographers wasn’t just higher than Aperture’s — it was higher than the number of Lightroom users on Windows. I think Mac users are more likely to try new apps.
Allan Odgaard has the lowdown on InputManager support in Leopard:
Contrary to most rumors, input managers still work on Leopard (at least on my pre-GM seed), but for an input manager to be loaded there are now a few requirements it needs to fulfill.
The confusion over this is that during the pre-release seeding this summer, input manager support in Leopard changed quite a bit. For a while, they really didn’t work at all. In the shipping version, they work, but installing them now requires administrator authentication (so the potential problem where they could be installed silently behind your back, as with Smart Crash Reports, is now closed). But they’re officially unsupported, don’t work at all in 64-bit apps, and are “likely to be disabled in a future release”.
Dan Miller:
In the new iCal, double-clicking an appointment causes an inspector box to pop up right next to the appointment itself; to edit appointment details, you click an Edit button in that inspector box. (You can also select the appointment and hit Command-E.) That might seem like one click too many to some users; some might also object to the fact that the inspector box obscures part of the calendar.
It’s greatly annoying to me that events don’t open in editing mode when double-clicked. Cmd-E is good to know.
Nice evolutionary update to my favorite pocket-size camera. Same lens as my original GR Digital, but now features “a new processing engine said to ‘dramatically’ improve high-ISO noise performance”. Also features much-improved RAW performance. Glad I didn’t wait for this when I bought mine back in April, but I highly recommend it to anyone in the market for a point-and-shoot — although with “availability in a month or two”, it might be cutting it close for Christmas.
Not a bad opening weekend.
I was pulling for Mattingly (and pulling for Torre to stay before that), but like the sound of a manager with an engineering degree from Northwestern.
Dan Benjamin and yours truly, talking about Leopard and baseball.
The comments are brutal.
Hulu, NBC and Fox’s joint online video venture, is in private beta-testing, but its URLs are easily guessable. This Slashdot comment links to this sample page of 10 embedded Hulu videos. The quality is great for web-page Flash video, certainly better than YouTube. But that doesn’t help if you want to watch them on your, you know, TV set — or on a portable device, or full-screen at a decent resolution on your computer.
Update: Apparently they’re preventing non-U.S. IP address ranges from accessing the video; at least one DF reader in Great Britain got an “Unfortunately this video is not currently available in your country or region. We apologise for the inconvenience” message when he attempted to view the above samples..
How Chris Glass played last week’s Layer Tennis match.
I suspect that when it appears that Back to My Mac is accessing your system without prompting for a username and password for a user on that machine, it’s using the Keychain, rather than accessing it via some means that doesn’t require a password.
Rhymes with “back look fro”.
Six major releases of Mac OS X. Six times, the same guy has written the best review.
Congratulations to the Boston Red Sox and their wonderful fans.
I need another beer.
Andy Ihnatko:
I.
Peter Maurer’s freeware (donations accepted) utility to restore round screen corners in Leopard. (Worth noting that while round corners are gone in Leopard, they’re there on the iPhone.)
Ged Maheaux on TheStreet.com’s Scott Moritz’s bullshit “scoop” nine days ago that Apple was going to release a new sub-notebook alongside the debut of Leopard.
Overall,.
Nice rundown from Matt Gemmell of what’s new in Cocoa in Leopard. I expect the stream of Leopard-only third-party apps to start tomorrow.
Incredible last-second comeback — a 13-lateral 60-yard touchdown.
Photo of a Microsoft Office ad in The New Yorker. It’s a guy walking past a newsstand in a city, and on the newsstand are dozens of bags of Frito-Lay band chips. Is Microsoft selling ad space within its own ads?
Congratulations to my pal Merlin Mann and his wife Madeline.
Buzz Andersen:
My point in all of this, I suppose, is that when it comes to interpreting Apple’s actions, Ockham’s razor is usually the best guide: the simplest explanation is to be preferred.
An important heads-up: If you’ve got APE installed, you should upgrade to Leopard with a Clean Install or Archive and Install, not an upgrade. People doing upgrades with (apparently outdated versions of) APE installed are getting stuck at a blue screen after the installation. Love the way Apple’s support document puts quotes around “enhancement” when describing what APE is.
(My upgrade advice still stands — APE is the sort of “unholy diddling with system software” that warrants a Clean Install.)
Update: Unsanity’s Slava Karpenko has acknowledged the problem on Unsanity’s weblog.
669 MB on disk — the largest file in Mac OS X Leopard. The quality is truly impressive. Jonas and I are having a lot of fun with it — I’ve got him convinced that my PowerBook knows what he’s doing.
Update: Here’s an example I recorded of Alex reading this entry — note that it reads “MB” as “megabyte” and correctly pronounces the “X” in “Mac OS X” as “ten”.
“Running Time Machine backup or restore operations while Aperture is running may lead to inconsistencies in the Aperture database.”
Educated guess: it’s a locking problem with the database — the backupd background daemon sees the notification from FSEvents that the file has changed since the last backup, and starts copying the file, but in the meantime, Aperture is still writing to the original database file, so the backup copy gets made while the file is in an inconsistent state. This might be a problem with other apps that use a frequently updated database file.
David Chartier:
This includes something we talked about in a report last week: the 300+ features page had confirmed that the iPhone would sync Notes with Leopard’s Mail. It’s now gone. Erased from existence, just like any trace of Time Machine and AirDisks. It’s a good thing we saved a screenshot for posterity.
No, it didn’t. Apple has never mentioned any sort of iPhone note synching in Leopard. I mentioned this last week: the way these notes work in Leopard is that they’re saved as IMAP account email messages; Leopard Mail treats these messages differently visually. Apple’s “access them from your iPhone” claim is a reference to the fact that you can view them, as regular email messages, in the iPhone Mail app. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the iPhone Notes app.
One reason people have assumed there would be some connection between Leopard’s notes and the iPhone’s Notes app is that they both look similar by default: the yellow-paper-legal-pad background and Marker Felt text. Another is that without synching to your computer, iPhone Notes seem nearly worthless. But, alas, the features are unrelated, other than visually. Plus, I’m not sure how iPhone note synching could be a Leopard-only feature, unless Apple’s willing to tell Windows-using iPhone owners to go blow.
I think Apple changed the text of this web page because people like Chartier were confused about what they were referring to, not because they’ve removed a feature they previously promised.
Here’s the gist: When you turn on Back to My Mac synching, all you need to control your Mac remotely is your .Mac password — you don’t need to authenticate with the password for your Mac itself.
I don’t think it’s right to characterize this as a security “hole”, though — clearly it’s how the feature is designed to work. If you don’t trust your .Mac account, don’t use it. It’d be nice if there were an option to require your Mac’s password, though — and I question the decision to turn this setting on by default.
Jason Hoffman on the NetApp/Sun spat.
Small software update for Leopard users; addresses password problems with login accounts and keychain entries.
The Associated Press:
Apple no longer accepts cash for iPhone purchases and now limits sales of the cellphone to two per person in a move to stop people from reselling them.
The new policy started Thursday, said Natalie Kerris, an Apple spokeswoman. Before then, there was no cash restriction and the purchase limit was five per person.
Screenshots of the Mac system settings, from the original System 1.0 Control Panel through Leopard’s updated System Preferences.
Matt Neuburg’s top gripes about Leopard. I completely agree with him about the new Help Viewer window:
When you choose from the Help menu in any application, what opens is no longer the Help Viewer application. It’s an orphan window that floats over, and blocks your view of, everything else on the screen. It belongs to no application, so you can’t hide it or switch away from it. Now, what’s the most common thing to do while you’re reading an application’s help documentation? You read something in the Help, you switch to the application to try it; you see something in the application, you switch back to the Help to learn about it. No more. Now, as soon as the help window opens, you’re stuck: you’re in the help window and that’s the only place you can be, until you close the window (or minimize it into the Dock).
Jason Snell:
Leopard is, at once, a major alteration to the Mac interface, a sweeping update to numerous included productivity programs, a serious attempt to improve Mac OS security, and a vast collection of tweaks and fixes scattered throughout every nook and cranny of the operating system.
If you crave super-detailed analysis of all your upgrading options, Joe Kissel’s $10 Take Control of Upgrading to Leopard e-book is probably your best bet.
MacJournals on MacFixIt’s “Be afraid. Be very afraid” advice regarding upgrading to Leopard and their voodoo warnings about the simple upgrade installer judgments, you might break out of a fear-based dependency on MacFixIt, so the site does its best to prevent that from happening.
Would be a great feature if it did, especially for notebook users. And it’s disappointing, because backing up to an AirPort disk was promoted as a feature of Time Machine in the WWDC 2007 keynote.
I saw this in the developer seeds months ago and laughed, but I assumed Apple would change it before shipping the 10.5.0 release. Funniest joke in Leopard.
One of the subtle changes in Leopard is that it no longers renders the corners of the screen as round. Peter Maurer is working on a hack to bring them back.
Kenneth S. Brown:.
(Thanks to Brandon Kelly.)
Nice list of Leopard details from David Pogue.
Speaking of DF feed sponsors, my thanks to this week’s sponsor, SimpleMovieX. SimpleMovieX is a simple (duh) $29 video editor with built-in support for popular file formats and codecs unsupported by QuickTime Pro, and features that make it easy to perform simple edits, transcode between file formats, and perform batch operations on multiple files at once.
Glenn Fleishman on the nifty file-sharing improvements in Leopard. Per-folder file sharing — last seen on the Mac in Mac OS 9 — returns at last.
Buzzblog:.
(Thanks to Jory K. Prum.)
Scroll down to the chart comparing customer satisfaction of all the top mobile phone makers — Apple comes in first at 82 percent, and RIM’s in second place way back at 51 percent. Jiminy. (Thanks to Chris Long.)
“TaskPaper’s strength is that it lets you focus on crossing out those tasks instead of building a self-referential web of unfinished business which separates you from the cold, harsh reality of all the work you need to do.”
Leopard compatibility update to MacRabbit’s amazing $30 CSS editor.
From a 2005 panel discussion on the future of Apple at SiliconValley.com. (This was after Apple announced their switch to Intel processors, but before any Intel-based Macs had yet shipped.)
Nathan Brookwood: I’m confident that the forthcoming Mactel platforms will provide a great computing experience for those who choose to move from the PowerPC platforms, but I’m also confident that more users will have switched from Mac to Windows than from Windows to Mac when all is said and done.
John Gruber: I’m looking forward to I-told-you-so’ing you in about two years.
(Thanks to Steve Brokaw for the reminder.)
Speaking of backups and SuperDuper, here’s Shirt Pocket Software’s Dave Nanian on SuperDuper’s role in a post-Time Machine world:.
You can argue that, well, of course a guy from Shirt Pocket is going to argue that SuperDuper is still relevant. But he’s right. Time Machine does not create a bootable clone of your system, and in cases of catastrophic drive failure, a bootable clone is exactly the thing you need.
JWZ on a super-simple backup strategy. I do the same thing, but with SuperDuper instead of rsync. Carbon Copy Cloner is another good choice. The basic gist is the same: buy two extra drives, use one to clone your entire boot drive daily, and use the other to clone it weekly or monthly and keep that one off-site.
No.
From David Pogue’s New York Times Leopard review:
Otherwise, the only cause for pause is the usual minor set of 1.0 bugs, which Apple generally fixes with software updates after a major release. I pushed my system hard for a week using the final Leopard software, and encountered occasional glitches with Spaces, automated synching among Macs and switching programs. I also found a few programs and add-ons that will need updates to run in Leopard.
Maybe some of that software would have already been updated for Leopard compatibility if Apple had provided developers with the same access to the final version of 10.5.0 that they apparently saw fit to distribute to Pogue (and, presumably, other big-publication tech writers like Walt Mossberg and Steven Levy). Given that the GM version leaked onto Usenet and BitTorrent sites anyway, what the fuck was the point of not providing it to seeded ADC developers?
“The iPhone Dev Center is your single source of information for designing, coding, and optimizing web applications for iPhone and iPod touch.”
Macworld editors pick their favorite — and least favorite — new features in Leopard.
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me thankful that Mac OS X doesn’t use activation. (Via Justin Blanton.)
“But interestingly enough, in this whole new digital music revolution, there is no market leader.”
Steve Moore:
Ever wonder how the power LED shows through the aluminum of Apple’s new wireless keyboard when it’s on, but blends into the metal when it’s off? Here’s how.
Kottke has a report on Google changing their PageRank algorithm, with speculation that the aim was to penalize sites that run text link ads and scads of cross-network promotional links, such as Weblogs Inc. sites like Engadget and TUAW. A reader sent Kottke this note:.
I don’t run text link ads on DF, so, unsurprisingly, my PageRank is unchanged (7). But there must be something more going on here than a penalty for text links ads, because Aaron Swartz’s site still has a PageRank of 9, and he runs text links ads. Apple.com dropped from 10 to 9, and they run neither text link ads nor cross-network promotional links.
Update: DF’s PageRank dropped from 7 to 5 at some point tonight, so I’m chalking it up to a rejiggering of the scale.
Christopher Fahey on switching:
In 1896, a scientist named George M. Stratton, showing an ingenuity that must have seemed like madness at the time, conducted a fascinating experiment in visual perception with himself as the subject. He constructed a pair of goggles with special lenses that inverted his view of the world by 180 degrees, causing him to see everything upside down, as if he were standing on his head, continuously. He wore the goggles for many days, never once opening his eyes without wearing them (he would shower with his eyes closed, for example).
Ben Sargent is exactly the sort of nerd switcher I wrote about yesterday — the sort of guy who never would have considered a Mac 10 years ago, but who is now a steadfast Mac OS X convert:
For me, using a computer has only partially been about the tools that it provides. It’s also about playing. I love to install things, mess around with servers and settings, just to see if I can get it to work. It’s the same reason I bought a PSP — because it was hackable. I could make it do fun and interesting things. I could play with it, not just on it.
Right now, it’s the Mac that embodies this sense of play the best for me in the computer world.
Matt Neuburg:.
Merlin Mann:
The approach is similar to OmniFocus — but even more obsessively concerned with keeping the system focused solely on completing tasks (rather than grooming and feeding them for months while they grow long hair and learn how to drive a stick).
Updated version of the freeware BitTorrent client.
Nelson Minar:
TechCrunch has a strange habit of blogging things where the only source is off the record. […] Anyone talking to media knows that telling a journalist something “off the record” means you’re telling them so they know it. It’s not going to stay secret. But it also clearly means that the comments aren’t to be used as a primary source.
I’ve noticed this too, but my assumption has been that Mike Arrington says “off the record” when he means “not for attribution”. If he really just turns around and publishes things he’s been told “off the record”, he’s a bigger doofus than I thought.
Jason Fried:.
Agreed 100 percent. I think this applies to any product where the buyer isn’t the user, but I think the problem is especially acute with software.
So even if you’re a Dock-at-the-bottom person, you can get the non-goofy look.
Compare and contrast to the diagram for the Nintendo Wii:
(Wii.)
Saul Hansell, writing about Apple’s success:
In that world, Apple has some choices to make: Will its iLife and iWork applications move onto the Web? More importantly, will it compete in the mass business PC market, where the C.I.O. of an insurance company buys desktops by the truckload?
No and no.
I suspect CandyBar 3 is going to be a big hit; it’s been lost amidst all the griping about the Leopard Dock, but the new Leopard folder icons are crummy.
Not sure how many browsers they support, but at least with Safari 3 and Firefox 2, Apple’s web site search is now displaying live search results as you type. (Might be something that debuted with the recent redesign, but which I hadn’t noticed until now.)
Huge news. This makes Gmail much more attractive to those using a desktop email client — or to anyone reading mail from an iPhone.
Rich Mogull details the security improvements in Leopard.
BusyMac:.
I think BusySync is a huge deal. Leopard’s new iCal sharing is very cool, but requires a dedicated server. For a household or very small business or partnership, BusySync’s server-less “just install it on your Mac” model is perfect.
“Don’t try to be original, just try to be good.”
Thanks to post-quarterly results after-hours trading, Apple is set to open tomorrow with a higher market cap than either IBM or Intel.
Hog Bay Software’s new deceptively simple $19 to-do/task manager; uses a plain text file format but includes support for tags and tabbed document windows. I’ve been using pre-release versions for a few weeks — definitely worth a look.
Leopard-compatibility release for Noodlesoft’s $22 automated file organizing/cleanup utility.
Also by Ken Cancelosi, this wonderful remembrance of Calvert DeForest, the performer best known as Letterman foil Larry “Bud” Melman.
Ken Cancelosi on William Shatner and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan — without question the best Star Trek movie ever made. (Via Kottke.)
Interesting nugget: Apple estimates 250,000 (out of 1.3M total) iPhones were sold to unlockers.
My big question, which seems to have gone unasked (and unanswered during Apple’s prepared statement) is whether Apple is accounting for iPod Touch sales on a subscription basis, like they are with the iPhone. Apple has stated that they’re using subscription-based accounting for the iPhone so as to be able to provide new features to iPhone users in future software updates free of charge. If iPod Touches aren’t being accounted for similarly, I suspect they won’t be getting the same feature updates, or at least not for free.
Apple:™ sales were 1,119,000, bringing cumulative fiscal 2007 sales to 1,389,000.
It’s all amazingly good news, but the stat of the day has to be that Apple sold 400,000 more Macs in the quarter than in any previous quarter ever — in the quarter immediately preceding a major new Mac OS X release, the sort of thing many people wait for before buying a new machine.
Secure networking for shared documents and an improved syntax coloring engine lead the way.
Jobs talks to John Markoff in an interview for The Times:.”
Jobs also seems to suggest that 10.6 is going to be sooner than later:
.”
Steven Frank:.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release.
Really good list of top new Leopard features.
Firefox 3 is going to look more like a Windows app on Vista and a Mac app on Mac OS X; love the parenthetical about Linux: “… we still aren’t sure what the best way to visually integrate with Linux is, given the number of different distributions.” (Via Mat Lu.)
Nikon D3 first impressions from James Russell. It’s getting harder and harder to see the D3 as anything other than the best DSLR in the world. (Even if you’re not interested in reading about the camera, it’s worth scrolling through just to look at the gorgeous photographs by Russell that accompany the article.)
Peter Svensson, reporting for The Associated Press:
Comcast Corp. actively interferes with attempts by some of its high-speed Internet subscribers to share files online, a move that runs counter to the tradition of treating all types of Net traffic equally.
Cringely on the Apple-Google alliance everyone seems to think is inevitable, but which there’s little indication of yet.
FileMaker:
We are currently working on Leopard compatibility updates for FileMaker Pro 9, FileMaker Pro 9 Advanced, FileMaker Server 9 and FileMaker Server 9 Advanced. At this time FileMaker does not recommend the use of FileMaker 9 products on computers running the Mac OS X Leopard.
Curious, given that FileMaker is an Apple subsidiary. Curious language, too, calling it “the Mac OS X Leopard”.
Update: According to FileMaker’s Tech Specs page, it’s a compatibility problem with Safari 3 (although I can only assume what they really mean is the version of WebKit that Safari 3 is based on), and Safari 3 is not optional on Leopard.
35 percent of the freshmen class at Harvard are using Macs; 65 percent of all students surveyed own iPods. (Thanks to Daniel Carroll.)
Great fucking essay by Steven Pinker in The New Republic.
Surfin’ Safari:
The current working spec for the HTML5 standard has a lot of exciting features we would eventually like to implement in WebKit. One feature we felt was exciting enough to tackle now even though the spec is still in flux is client-side database storage.
This is huge news for web developers.
Today’s Layer Tennis match is a real humdinger. Great stuff.
Speaking of that Unicode leftwards-arrow-with-hook glyph, here’s the 2005 article where I described my footnote markup style, and some subsequent criticism and discussion from others, most notably Joe Clark.
I love that the glyph appears in the URL. Unicode nerdery at its best.
Miguel Helft reporting for The Times on Google’s latest quarterly results:
The results show that Google is growing roughly twice as fast as the overall online advertising market, which itself is booming, and that it is expanding far more quickly than any large Internet company.
Apple’s video tour of what’s new in Leopard.
Aggregated tracker for time lost to Mac OS X’s Spinning Pizza of Death cursor.
My thanks to Bruji for sponsoring this week’s DF RSS feed. Bruji’s line-up of “Pedia” apps — DVDpedia, Bookpedia, CDpedia, and Gamepedia — let you easily catalog and track your DVDs, CDs, books, and video games. Each features a great UI, iSight barcode scanning, Spotlight integration, a full screen view and more. They’re running a promotion this week where each person who purchases an app is eligible to win a case of wine. (But so where’s the Winepedia app?)
Tyler Kepner, reporting on The New York Times’s Bats weblog:
The Yankees offered Manager Joe Torre a one-year deal with a base salary of $5 million and the chance to make another $3 million in performance bonuses. But after 12 years and 12 postseason appearances (including four World Series titles), Torre turned it down. […]
General Manager Brian Cashman said that Torre’s successor has not been named, nor have potential candidates been formally identified. “I can promise you that the process is going to take some time,” Cashman said. “I ask for everyone’s patience as we review the individuals and make recommendations to ownership.”
James Thomson:
You can now finally insert and rearrange items in your docks without needing to make space first. Just drag and drop to your heart’s content.
This might be my favorite new DragThing feature ever.
Ryan Naraine: “Apple has announced plans to add code-scrambling diversity to Mac OS X Leopard, a move aimed at making the operating system more resilient to virus and worm attacks.”
There are two types of people: People who like to talk about pens, and people I don’t like.
More on the BusinessWeek redesign, from Armin Vit at Brand New.
Fraser Speirs:, EA and Nike now has an SDK.
Update to Freeverse’s excellent webcam software.
Steven Berlin Johnson:
What we’re starting to see here (and of course in the anti-DRM letter from earlier this year) is a pretty significant shift in Jobs’ public relations strategy, in that he seems to have recognized that there are limits to secrecy.
Johnson wonders whether Apple planned all along to open up iPhone development eventually; I say yes.
Gartner’s and IDC’s numbers don’t match, but both agree that Apple is now #3 in unit sales, behind only Dell and HP. (Apple will drop back to #4 after Acer’s acquisition of Gateway is complete.) But the most important thing to remember is that Apple isn’t really after raw market share; they don’t offer any bargain PCs. The entirety of Apple’s market share is in the middle and high end of the market. Also impressive is that Mac sales are growing this fast before the release of Leopard.
The number I’d love to see computed is profit share — what share of the total profit in the PC hardware business do these companies have. I suspect Apple might be #1.
Thus explaining the extraordinarily high morale here at DF HQ. (Via Chris Long.)
£80 for the single-user version, £120 for the family pack — and both offer free shipping. (Update: They just dropped the price on the family pack from £129 to £120.)
Jacqui Cheng, two weeks ago:
Apple is working on solutions that will help developers get more face time on the iPhone, but there are currently no plans to offer a “true” iPhone SDK that would allow developers to create native apps, a source at Apple has told Ars.
I strongly suspect her source was correct, however, that Apple is also working on significant improvements to MobileSafari’s web app capabilities, including offline storage.
Clever bit of design I hadn’t noticed: the iPhone screen does turn on to show a sound icon when you toggle the ringer switch with the screen off, but only if the screen has been off for more than one minute.
Kevin J. O’Brien reporting for the International Herald Tribune:
The move, which ended a month of speculation, is a concession to a French law that forbids bundling the sale of a mobile phone and a mobile operator. Orange plans to sell both a version of the iPhone locked to its network in France for €399, or $560, and an unlocked version, which will cost more, an Orange spokeswoman, Béatrice Mandrine, said.
Pure DF fodder: topics include digital video vs. film, the Internet as a distribution medium, Stanley Kubrick, and the city of Philadelphia, which Lynch describes as “one of the sickest, most fear-ridden, corrupt, and twisted cities, which they call the City of Brotherly Love.” (Thanks to Mark Schrimsher.)
Nathan Smith’s nifty introduction to the jQuery JavaScript library.
Now works with iPhone OS 1.1.1.
The scary part is that the only reason the cheaters were caught is that (a) detailed logs were leaked (perhaps intentionally by a whistleblower); and (b) the cheaters were egregious — rather than using their knowledge of opposing players’ hole cards here and there, they played in a way that raised suspicion immediately.
Dave Dribin asks something I’ve been wondering about, too — especially since our Wii showed up at DF HQ yesterday.
Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone; synopsis. (Via John C. Welch.)
One of the biggest new features in Leopard Server, and one of the best web apps I’ve ever seen — and by far the best web app I’ve seen from Apple — including an amazing web-based WYSIWYG editor.
For once there’s some correlation between a rise in Apple’s stock price and good news from the company. Wall Street sees platforms as lucrative.
Doesn’t seem to be getting a lot of attention, at least not yet, but this is pretty big:
Using iCal Server, colleagues can propose and set up meetings, book conference rooms, and more, quickly and easily. iCal Server is a full-featured, standards-based calendaring solution designed to make your life easier.
This is Apple’s rival to Exchange for scheduling.
Jim Coudal: “If you have a product or service that could benefit by being in front of millions of creative, web and design professionals, give us a shout.”
Glenn Fleishman:
Jobs’s letter today was a bit in the tone of, “Hey, you kids, get off my lawn! We still have to get rid of the gophers, resod the grass, and finish the main house before we let you on it in a few months, you little…”
At the end, Glenn speculates about a possible “iPhone version of Leopard”, and assumes that the current iPhone OS is based on Tiger, but that’s misguided. iPhone OS X already contains technologies new to the Mac in Leopard. For example, the iPhone has LayerKit, which was an early name for the Cocoa framework now called Core Animation. (In Mac OS X 10.5, Core Animation is part of the QuartzCore umbrella framework, and there isn’t anything called “LayerKit”.) Better to think of Mac OS X and iPhone OS X as two sibling products derived from the same core technologies and frameworks than to think of iPhone OS X as a child of Mac OS X.
I’ll bet Glenn’s right, though, that there will be a signficant iPhone OS update before the SDK appears.
Detailed information on how to exploit the iPhone OS X TIFF-processing vulnerability.
Me, back on June 1:
Long-term, within the next two years, if not far sooner, I feel certain there will be various ways for developers to write iPhone software. […] Downplaying the prospects for third-party app development in the meantime is a way of under-promising and over-delivering. By setting initial expectations that there might never be third-party software for iPhone, any future support for third-party apps will be treated as good news.
Pretty prescient, if I do say so.
Of course, I got a slew of messages from smart DF readers that my use of “wherefore” in the title was utterly wrong. (“Wherefore” means “why”, not “where”.)
Good list of previously-unpromoted new features in Leopard from Gizmodo’s Jesus Diaz. Not sure where he got this one, though:
Mail’s Post-It-style notes synchronize automatically with the iPhone.
What Apple actually says is: “Your notes folder acts like an email mailbox, so you can retrieve notes from any Mac or PC or access them from your iPhone.” That’s not synching with the iPhone Notes app. What they mean is that notes created in Leopard Mail are stored, behind the scenes, as IMAP messages, and that you can read them in a way that makes them look exactly like regular emails in the iPhone Mail app. Apple has announced nothing yet regarding any connection between Leopard Mail notes and the iPhone Notes app.
BusinessWeek deputy creative director David Sleight on the magazine’s print edition redesign. A strong design that emphasizes very clean typography.
Stephen Coles: “Let’s look a little closer at the features in the Fonts category and give them snarky grades based on their potential value.”
Headline for Nick Wingfield’s Wall Street Journal story on Apple’s iPhone SDK announcement: “Apple Reverses Position on iPhone Software”. Wrong. Apple never stated there would never be a native SDK. Until today Apple hadn’t made a definitive statement regarding native third-party iPhone development. (Via John C. Welch.)
Update: At some point during the day, the Journal changed the headline to “Apple Eases iPhone-Applications Curb”.
Tony Smith:..
Amazon has cut the price of Leopard from $129 to $109, and the five-license family pack from $199 to $189. Still with free shipping.
Jeff Croft’s iPhone has a sound icon on the silent switch — just the sort of indication it needs, I think, to help keep people from thinking theirs is broken when it’s engaged and stops ringing. Croft (via email), told me he bought his back on June 29 in Lawrence, Kansas, so it’s not a recent addition.
This is why it’s a mistake, a huge mistake, to call copyright infringement and bootlegging “piracy”.
Sure, it would be nice if iPhones were made using no objectionable materials whatsoever, but yesterday’s Greenpeace announcement strikes me as sensational attention-grabbing bullshit. Their main gripe is that the earphone wiring contains a material that the city of San Francisco and EU have banned in “young children’s toys” — last I checked, the iPhone is not a young child’s toy.
Great story in Wired by Charles Graeber, on Alex Roy’s attempt to break the 22-year-old “totally illegal” record for driving from Manhattan to Santa Monica: an insane 32 hours, 7 minutes.
Rogue Amoeba’s Mike Ash, on application serial numbers that contain random profanity:
It turns out that one day in the not-too-distant future, our random number generator gets filthy. On that day, one out of every 128 licenses generated will start with the F-bomb.
Apple.com has updated their Mac OS X section with highlights of what’s new in Leopard. Definitely worth checking out for the feature highlights — especially the “300+ New Features” list.
Karelia:
Do you like the media browser that Apple includes in some of its applications, but wish you could use it from any application? Now you can.
Looks like an outstanding contribution to the indie dev community.
Still no word on whether upgrading old non-Plus tracks will cost additional money.
Dave Winer thought his iPhone was broken because it stopped ringing; ends up he had the ringer switch turned off. It’s easy to laugh at, but I think it’s actually a non-obvious design. There’s no icon or visual indication as to what that switch does. You do get a small jolt of vibration when it’s engaged, but that doesn’t naturally imply “silent mode” to me. (Update: Yes, there’s also an on-screen icon, but that only helps if you toggle it while the screen is on.)
It’s a great feature once you know about it, but it’s potentially dangerous if you don’t. Its intuitiveness is further hurt by the fact that most mobile phones don’t offer a switch like this, even though they should.
He really does seem chastened:
I deeply regret these errors, and I offer my sincere apologies to all of the readers of Networking Know-How and PCWorld.com.
A bunch of new features to one of my favorite utilities, including snippet groups and snippet synching via .Mac, and AppleScript snippets that expand to the result of the script. Free upgrade for registers users, $30 for new licenses.
The New York Times:
“We are furious,” [Tibet’s Communist Party boss, Zhang Qingli] said. “If the Dalai Lama can receive such an award, there must be no justice or good people in the world.”
Where by “no justice or good people”, Zhang means “justice and good people”.
Jacqui Cheng reports that Apple is set to announce indie music labels participating in iTunes Plus, and a price cut to $.99 for all iTunes Plus singles.
I’ve bought a few at $1.29; I’m calling my lawyer in the morning and plan to sue.
One of only three bands I’ll hear an argument about as the greatest of all time.
The remastered The Song Remains the Same, which includes a slew of additional songs, looks like a must-buy.
From a Macworld reprint of an IDG News Service story by Robert McMillan on security exploits via URI protocol handlers:
Secunia ApS Chief Technology Officer Thomas Kristensen agreed that the URI protocol handler problems will probably turn up on Linux and Mac OS X. “There is absolutely a chance that similar issues could exist on those platforms,” he said.
Hello, there actually have been URI protocol handler vulnerabilities on Mac OS X. (More details here and here.) Are there more waiting to be discovered? Maybe. (Or, if you prefer, “absolutely maybe”.) But it’s not like this is a new vector for potential exploits on Mac OS X.
So is it (a) a mistake; (b) the first signs of a unilateral price drop to $0.99 for iTunes Plus; or (c) the introduction of variable single pricing?
BBC:.
How can I not link to this?
PCWorld Business Center “Expert” weblogger Robert Strohmeyer, on why the iPhone isn’t suited for business:
For business users, an ideal phone should be able to do three things well: voice calls, messaging (including e-mail), file attachments, and web browsing.
That’s four things — and yet this might be the most accurate sentence in Strohmeyer’s piece.
At the same time, the iPhone lacks support for Microsoft Office file attachments, which means that, unlike the Blackberrys, Moto Qs, and Blackjacks you may have now, it can’t open a Word document or Excel spreadsheet at all.
In addition to these major shortcomings, the iPhone currently offers no VPN support, so you can forget about giving your users secure access to internal network resources from the road.
Oh, really?? Why not just claim it doesn’t even make phone calls?
Byron Acohido, USA Today:
Google’s widely anticipated - and top secret - GPhone mobile phone project could trump Apple’s glitzy iPhone - by going low cost and low tech, tech analysts say.
A low-cost relatively low-tech “GPhone” may well be a smash hit, and a revolutionary product in the mobile phone market. But the only way it makes sense that it threatens the iPhone is if you believe there’s only room for one “it” phone. Apparently if any other phone on the market is successful, the iPhone is doomed.
Fake Steve on David Berlind’s 2004 prediction that desktop Linux spelled doom for Mac OS X:
Well, it’s been three years. I’m not sure what to say. Maybe we should wait another hundred years and see if his prediction comes true.
As my wife described it, this is exactly the sort of thing I find funny.
Edited by Newsweek’s Steven Levy; includes a May 2006 piece by yours truly from DF: “Good Journalism”. It’s a nice anthology with slew of thoughtful essays, and it’s very handsomely typeset in Granjon.
The audio has finally been posted from the panel I spoke on at SXSW back in March, with Shaun Inman, Nick Bradbury, and moderator Michael Lopp.
James Duncan Davidson:
I think you can do very well with either the 35mm f/2 or the 50mm f/1.8 lenses. Either one will teach you vast amounts about photography that you won’t be able to get from a kit lens or any zoom that costs less than $1000. And, the sub-$100 50mm is the cheapest way to get there, if budget is a concern. If you want to learn with about the same field of view as the standard lens on a full-frame camera and have $250 to spend, consider the 35mm f/2 lens as an alternative. Either way, you’ll do just fine.
And for a bit more than the 35mm f/2, Canon also offers a 28mm f/1.8, which in addition to being a half stop faster, also has a USM motor. The only lenses I own for my Rebel are the 50mm f/1.8 and the 28mm f/1.8.
Fraser Speirs:.. We’d quite possibly be in the middle of his fourth term now. Bill Clinton left office with the highest approval rating of any president in recent history. And, even if the 22nd Amendment were repealed today and Bush was determined to run again, I don’t think he could win the Republican nomination, let alone win the general election. (Via Kottke.)
“Al has put his heart and soul, and much of his life during the past several years, into alerting and educating us all on the climate crisis. We are bursting with pride for Al and this historic recognition of his global contributions.”
Read-only access via AppleScript is, indeed, primordial, but the plugin interface might prove pretty useful already.
Halfway through and really enjoying today’s Layer Tennis match between Steven Harrington and Chuck Anderson.
Ambrosia Software:
Using WireTap Studio, you can record the discrete audio output of any application, as well as all system audio, or record audio input from any microphone, line-in, or audio input hardware.
If you can hear it, WireTap Studio can record it.
$69 for a new license, $30 to upgrade or crossgrade from WireTap Pro or Rogue Amoeba’s Audio Hijack Pro or Fission.
Flickr group for “documenting” the abuse of quotation marks.
“Arrogance without humility is a recipe for high-concept irrelevance; humility without arrogance guarantees unending mediocrity.”
Freeware utility by Nik Friedman TeBockhorst that will translate DV-format video in your iMovie ’08 library to H.264 — saving significant disk space with relatively minimal loss of quality.
Walter Gibbs, reporting for The New York Times:
The award immediately renewed calls from Mr. Gore’s supporters for him to run for president in 2008, joining an already crowded field of Democrats. Mr. Gore, who lost the 2000 presidential election to George W. Bush, has said he is not interested in running but has not flatly rejected the notion.
My thanks to Mentat, a new web-based project and task tracker from Brain Murmurs, for sponsoring the DF RSS feed this week.
What I like best about Mentat is that in addition to letting you group tasks as projects, it lets you easily build a daily agenda of tasks from multiple projects — a very clean separation between storing everything you need to do, and presenting only what you want to do today. Mentat also has some useful features for team-based collaboration.
Best ways to learn more: the FAQ, the screencasts, and Brain Murmurs’s weblog.
Christ, do I miss Ze Frank’s The Show. (Via Andy Baio.)
Update to Panic’s Apple Design Award-winning IDE for web developers. I wrote about Coda 1.0 back in April.
Bill Bumgarner:
I have been wanting a new lens for a while (what SLR photographer — amateur or otherwise — doesn’t?) and had been eying up some serious pieces of glass.
After doing a bunch of research, I ended up with a Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II lens. Complete opposite end of the spectrum from the various L series bits of glass linked above. Instead of dropping $1,500 or even $5,000, it cost me all of $76.30.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: the 50mm f/1.8 prime lens is the best deal in photography. Everyone with an SLR should have one — even if you already own the $310 50mm f/1.4 (which is both technically and optically superior to the f/1.8), it’s worth buying the f/1.8 for $80 because it costs so little and weighs so much less. The f/1.4 weighs 290g; the f/1.8 weighs just 130g — the difference is very noticeable. (A Canon Rebel XT body with no attached lens weighs 485g.)
Nikon makes a very similar lens for just $110.
Includes a four-minute trailer for the documentary “Runnin’ Down a Dream”, directed by Peter Bogdonavich. Here’s a clip on “The Waiting”, including footage of Eddie Vedder singing it with The Heartbreakers. Pre-ordered; we’ll be watching here at DF headquarters the day it arrives.
Apple-selected directory of MobileSafari-optimized web sites.
One of the “funniest” weblogs I’ve ever seen. (Via John August (who, by the way, is writing and directing an episode of Heroes: Origins.)
Best comic about SQL injection ever. (Via Kottke.)
I’m with Brent Simmons, who wrote: “Normally I wouldn’t think much about a piece like this — but it’s by Glenn Fleishman and it’s published in TidBITS, so I am thinking that something might be happening.”
David Pogue:
Palm hoped that by trimming the Treo’s size and price, it would create a totally different product, a new crossover phone for people who have never before owned phones with alphabet keys. (By Palm’s reckoning, that’s 95 percent of cellphone buyers.)
But here’s the funny thing: the strategy works.
The numbered boarding passes are a fair change, and should eliminate the silly lines at the gate. But it’s hard to believe a major airline produced something designed like this. It looks like the rules for a Girl Scouts troop.
If the photo accompanying this story doesn’t move you, you’re not hooked up right. Saw it on the front page of The Times while I was in line at Starbucks today, and couldn’t stop staring at it.
So there’s a buffer overflow in MobileSafari’s TIFF handling code that can be exploited to execute code with root privileges. And we’re supposed to treat this as good news? (Hint: it’s actually a security vulnerability.)
Drew Thaler with another interesting, informative volley in the ZFS debate.
Scene from George Lucas’s upcoming “Even More Special Special Edition” cut of The Empire Strikes Back. (Thanks to Dan Benjamin, who claims Vader’s behavior reminds him of me.)
Adam Engst: […]
Political commentary by way of Venn diagram. (Thanks to Steve Kalkwarf.)
The stock photos let you know just how serious they are.
Very cool work from Grayson Hansard — a port of Markdown to Nu. (He also ported SmartyPants.)
Splendid idea: a non-profit, free service whose objective is to reduce the 19 billion paper catalogs that are produced and mailed annually to US consumers.
Maybe they’re listening to me.
Michael McCracken:
Once you get a piece of code to the point where you believe it works - it’s passing its tests - go back over it and edit it. That is, go back and edit it for clarity, flow, and style. Just as if it were an essay.
Jimm Lasser: “My Mac burst into flames under my bed while I was asleep.”
Trent Reznor announces that Nine Inch Nails is no longer under a recording contract with a.
Sad column from Harvey Araton in The Times on the Yankees’ manager, Joe Torre, who, it’s expected, is going to be fired after the Yankees lost in the first round of the playoffs. (Perfect photo to accompany the column.)
The Yankees lost to the Indians because they were both out-hit and out-pitched. They were not out-managed. Before Torre took the helm, the last time the Yankees made it to the World Series was 1981, and the last time they won it was 1978. It says here that firing Torre is a mistake.
Very cool Halloween-themed freeware icon set from The Iconfactory, by David Lanham.
I never get tired of laughing at this.
“Designed for big.”
40 percent of Princeton students and faculty are using a Mac this year, up from just 10 percent four years ago. I think this “Mac use way up on college campuses” trend is hugely important for Apple. (Via Fake Steve.)
Google buys Helsinki-based Twitter archrival Jaiku. (Via Gary Vaynerchuk.)
My guess is that it’s not a bug, but that no one at Apple expected anyone to be dumb enough to buy more than eight ringtones.
New version of Griffin’s interesting but sort-of-hard-to-explain macro/system monitoring utility. Check out the Proxi wiki for more info.
It’s the pinstripes that make it. (Thanks to Rich Siegel.)
Good analysis of open source software usability by Jono DiCarlo, but it fails to address what I see as the primary problem: finding ways to fund more humane open source software. Mozilla does it with Google affiliate ad revenue from the search bar.
Apple stock is up four percent today. As I type this, Apple’s market cap is $146 billion; compare and contrast: Dell ($63 billion), HP ($134 billion), Intel ($149 billion), IBM ($160 billion), Google ($190 billion), Microsoft ($280 billion).
Lately, the correlation between AAPL stock run-ups and actual news regarding Apple is zero. Whereas most of the time there is any actual news — even news that strikes me as unambiguously good news for Apple — the stock goes down.
Timothy Smith must have read both of Moltz’s new books.
Michael Tsai:
ZFS isn’t ready to be the default Mac OS X filesystem today, but HFS+ is or soon will be a liability, and ZFS is perhaps the best candidate for its eventual replacement.
MacJournals:
Thaler knows his stuff, but in mistaking our disdain for ZFS rumors as “ZFS hate,” he minimizes the real and significant problems that this advanced file system would bring to today’s Macintosh computers. Of course, part of the problem is that the post is an abbreviated argument, not our entire case.
Interesting report by Miguel Helft on Google’s mobile phone plans:.
This sounds smart to me. And it shows why Google has become Microsoft’s first true archrival.
Congratulations to Mike Davidson and company. The lesson for other web start-ups is easy: Build something useful, interesting, and different.
Ends up the delay is built into the keyboard hardware, so it’s still there even if you remap the Caps Lock key to some other function, such as Control.
Instructions and a BBEdit AppleScript from Ramón M. Figueroa-Centeno for using the ChkTeK syntax checker for LaTeX on Mac OS X.
Real people on the streets of New York talking about how they use their iPhones.
Drew Thaler on the potential for ZFS to eventually become the default file system for Mac OS X:.
Vista getting a bad rap in the nerd press? (I have no opinion on Vista because I haven’t used it, but I have noticed that I have yet to see any reports of security problems.).”
Scans from a neato 1969 Matchbox catalog. (Via Scott Beale.)
I don’t get the complaints about these ads — they’re distinctive, they’re simple, and judging by Ketel One’s sales growth in the U.S., they’re working. (Via Steve Delahoyde.)
Microsoft PR:.
Translation: “We’re still good friends, and we remain committed to be good parents to our child Halo.”
Joel Spolsky on the difference between “Designed by Apple in California” and “Hello from Seattle”.
The match starts in a few moments; commentary this week by Debbie Millman.
My thanks to Fluther.com for sponsoring this week’s DF RSS feed. Fluther is a free social-networking Q&A site with an attractive design, a simple interface, and a well-done MobileSafari-optimized version.
“Due to space limitations, AppleInsider’s latest ZFS article was published with several missing phrases and explanations. As a service to the community, we are happy to fill in the gaps in the story as published.”
If I could figure out a way to agree with this piece by Mark Pilgrim more than 100 percent, I would, but 100 percent will have to do.
Michael Tsai:
Since bouncing doesn’t work, it would be a waste of your time and network resources to do it. Including such a feature in SpamSieve would fill out the feature checklist but give the false impression that the feature should be used.
(And another good tip for SpamSieve users here, regarding forged spams “from” your own address.)
Saulius Dailide, in an interview with TUAW’s Mat Lu:
Also, Pixelmator made $60,000 the first day, and sales are still outstanding. So, our budget for future versions is not as ridiculous as it was before.
Wolf Rentzsch:
Apple’s Caps Lock key has undocumented anti-jab protection.
Stephen Coles on the announcement of WebKit’s support for embedded TrueType fonts:
This reopens the legal can of worms that falls off the shelf every time we talk about font embedding. Good fonts cost money. Like most software, each user or CPU must be licensed to use commercial fonts. When you start talking about every visitor of a web page downloading fonts, well, you enter very sticky territory indeed.
The conundrum is that most of the fonts worth using can’t legally be shared as free downloads, and most of the fonts that are legally shareable aren’t worth using.
Those aforelinked Chinese toy factory photographs are the work of Michael Wolf, as part of a larger art project regarding Chinese-made toys. (Thanks to Ramanan Sivaranjan.)
Kevin Hale’s terrific explanation — replete with well-designed, informative illustrations — of Fitts’s Law, one of the most important concepts in human-to-machine interface design. (Thanks to Jacob Rus.)
Two new books from Crazy Apple Rumors Site author John Moltz.
Dave Hyatt:
WebKit now supports CSS
@font-facerules. With font face rules you can specify downloadable custom fonts on your Web pages or alias one font to another. This article on A List Apart describes the feature in detail. All of the examples linked to in that article work in WebKit now.
Verizon Wireless Chief Marketing Officer Mike Lanman, on the upcoming LG Voyager phone:
“We think it’ll be the best phone … this year. It will kill the iPhone.”
Um, OK.
Interesting, amusing, moving, and disturbing.
Thanks to everyone who emailed to point out that the aforelinked “24 vs. 6 varieties of jam” study was popularized in Barry Schwartz’s The Paradox of Choice.
21 percent of the students in Cornell’s dorms are using Macs this year — which means 21 percent of them couldn’t use a Zune even if they wanted to. Most interesting is the trend:
So one way or another, Apple’s market share among Cornell students connecting to ResNet has increased from 5 percent in 2002 to 21 percent in 2007.
Interesting example from Intel’s Timothy Mattson regarding the dizzying array of languages currently in vogue for parallel programming:.
Keith Schacht:
You have to pursue greatness not success. Achieve greatness and success will follow.
(Via Rentzsch.)
Good one from The Macalope, including this bit regarding ZDNet’s Larry Dignan’s suggestion that Apple should have offered iPhone early adopters a $250 credit:.
Bill Bumgarner:
Amazon decided to package the application into some installer app that requires authentication to install the downloader helper. But there doesn’t seem to be any reason why admin access is required for the downloader helper and, as such, all this is doing is creating an unnecessary barrier to entry.
Another free update to Cocoatech’s Finder alternative that packs a ton of new features, including per-folder view settings..
Gary Voth on why your first camera lens should be a normal prime, rather than the cheap kit zoom most consumer SLRs ship with:
Creating such images is nearly impossible with “slow” zoom lenses, which are harder to focus and inadequate for use indoors without flash. Nor can they easily render backgrounds out of focus. In fact, the technical limitations of these lenses tend to lead to the kind of snapshots that the photographer presumably bought an SLR to avoid.
(Via Coudal.)
Larry King is under the impression that Woz “invented the podcast”.
They look OK. The thick black border around the flash ones is chintzy, though. Interesting, too, that the new UI embraces the term “podcasting”.
Jiminy.
In response to inquiries, the official line from Microsoft’s PR firm is “There’s been no such announcement. We continue to celebrate the tremendous success of the global phenomenon that is Halo 3.”
As mentioned on this week’s episode of The Talk Show, the hilarious spoof trailer for Kubrick’s The Shining, cut by Robert Ryang. See also: the actual trailer for The Shining, my favorite trailer of all time.
The Amazon Bookstore Blog:
Are Best American Essay introductions eligible for next year’s Best American Essays?
See also: Dwight Garner at the NYT Paper Cuts blog, and Kottke.
Looks fantastic, but a small beef with the anchored-at-the-bottom masthead: you can’t just use Page Down to scroll the page, because you end up missing some of the lines of text that were covered by the fixed masthead.
The only way to log out of Amazon.com is to click the “If you’re not Your Name, click here” link. (Via Simon Willison.)
Quentin Carnicelli on how developers can access events from the new Next, Previous, and Play/Pause keys on Apple keyboards.
New application launcher, invoked with a circular mouse gesture.
The Associated Press:
A New York woman is so angry at Apple Inc. for lopping $200 off the price of the iPhone that she’s filed a lawsuit seeking $1 million in damages.
Low-priced web hosting from the ultra-reliable Pair.
Nintendo of America president Reggie Fil-Aime: “I can’t guarantee that we’re going to meet demand. As a matter of fact, I can tell you on the record we won’t.”
What is wrong with Nintendo?
Rainer Brockerhoff has, by far, the best technical explanation I’ve seen regarding why SIM-unlocked iPhones might be rendered inoperable by the iPhone 1.1.1 update, without assuming any sort of spiteful malfeasance on Apple’s part.
Good suggestions from John August for any aspiring filmmakers considering Apple’s upcoming Insomnia Film Festival contest:
Go funny. While there will no doubt be one or two dramatic shorts in the finals, the winner will be funny.
Speaking of “The Best American” anthologies, David Foster Wallace edited the 2007 edition, and his introduction is, unsurprisingly, killer — an examination regarding just what the title of the book, The Best American Essays 2007, actually means, including wondering what exactly an “essay” is:.
That’s probably the best sentence I’ve read all year.
Stephen King, editor of The Best American Short Stories 2007, on the state of short fiction:.”
Saul Hansell:
Here’s a suggestion to every Internet executive: take a Post-It note, write “EBay wasted $3 billion on Skype” and stick it to your monitor.
Kottke on the new trailer for Pixar’s upcoming Wall-E:
Does it make sense even if you don’t speak French? Yes, because the movie isn’t going to have any dialogue. Says director Andrew Stanton: “I’m basically making R2-D2: The Movie”.
I think it was Steven Spielberg who described R2-D2 as the most purely-cinematic character in movie history — everything we know about him comes through his beeps and minimal range of motion, and the other characters’ reactions.
Kevin J. O’Brien, reporting for The New York Times:.
Interesting, if somewhat hyperbolic, piece by Nick Martens regarding Radiohead’s “pay what you think you should pay” online release of their new album.
Jason Fried on the location of the new iTunes icon on the iPhone home screen..”
Update: Seems like this quote might be from Ray Bradbury, not Annie Dillard. Can anyone find a precise citation for this?
Update 2: More sources pointing to Bradbury, including an interview with the Brown Daily Herald in 1995, but most aren’t in the exact same form as the above.
Those ultra-fine Pilot G-2 gel pens I adore from JetPens.com? They’re now stocked at Staples.com, just $15 for a dozen.
JavaScript bookmarklet that toggles background guides on and off for use in developing grid-based web page layouts. Based on an idea by Jon Hicks.
Tim Burks’s new web site for Nu, his new programming language designed from the ground-up specifically for use as an Objective-C scripting language. (See my write-up regarding Burks’s excellent presentation about Nu at C4[1] a few weeks ago.)
New version of Pieter Omvlee’s $49 drawing/illustration app. Looks interesting — the UI emphasis is on keeping everything in a single window. There’s a strong flavor of iWork-ness to the new version.
Fraser Speirs:
For those who don’t care to read the minutiae, I’ll get to the point: In my opinion, Aperture vs. Lightroom is the same discussion as Canon vs. Nikon. Each has strengths and weaknesses, but it’s not a no-brainer decision either way. |
:
You should remember that there are many notable atheists who have looked at your same data and come to a different conclusion. In the same way that you think arguments for God are not conclusive or persuasive, neither are yours. Of course they make perfect sense to you, they are your arguments!
The more I read the different entries on this blog, the more it comes to light that it isn't about evidence, but arguments. Just like debate team, you don't have to be right, just have a better argument. A lot of the arguments here are made so that they are unable to be refuted from a philosophical/debate sort of standpoint, but that doesn't mean they are right!
Hi John,
awesome article. I give it a standing ovation.
Hi david m,
The more I read the different entries on this blog, the more it comes to light that it isn't about evidence, but arguments.
what evidence are you talking about, John has effectively "crossed off" all the 'hard' evidence supporting christianity.
Argument is valid for reasoning. Logic and inference are essential to day to day life. I use logic and inference everyday to do my job and do my puzzles on my DS.
Logic and inference will tell you that if you two apples and add two more, you have four, then you can go the extra step to verify it.
The internal witness of the spirit is not evidence. It is an illusion, a personal bias, wishful thinking. If it were true there would be some way to verify it. Paranoids are convinced people are after them, but under closer scrutiny, it turns out not to be true.
John,
That was a great post. You covered so much ground in it.
I hope I can find the time to order and read your book sometime, especially knowing you will go into even more detail about those topics in it.
Great Essay John!
This reminds of the time I debated a pastor and apologists on the Bible back in 1989.
My thesis was the Bible was often totally inconsistent with itself. The debate ended when the pastor could not explain my examples and left defeated.
However, not to give up, he latter informed me that he was attending an apologetic conference hosted by the great conservative from Dallas Theological Seminary Dr. Gleason L. Archer. Archer had edited the “The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties” (now out in a new revised 2001 edition) and is described on the slip jacket as:
Dr. Gleason Archer offers carefully thought-out arguments for the unity and integrity of the Bible that should convince the skeptic and reassure the person who may be confused by the seeming discrepancies in Scripture.
I gave the pastor three questions on why the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses (but was, in fact, and eclectic text compiled over hundreds of years). The pastor assured me that any of my questions could be answered by the major apologists at the conference.
At the conference, he gave the my questions to Dr. Gleason Archer who, after reading them (to the pastor’s disappointment) threw them on the conference table and exclaimed: “Who is this nut?” and walked off.
What is very significant about the social context of the Bible and its world of faith is that there is no word in the Bible for either “atheist” or “agnostic” since everyone believed in some god or gods (but usually just not the right one) so any apologetic debate was an “in house” debate on which faith (god) is correct.
In the end, the “Mighty Acts of God” which proved His existence are now echoes from a mythic past defended today by the faith and philosophy of apologists of whom many have a finical stake in the debate’s outcome.
I'm definitely saving this post for future reference. You've highlighted many of the hard reasons why I finally rejected christianity and also why I finally accepted atheism. Well done, John, and thank you for your hard work on this site!
"You should remember that there are many notable atheists who have looked at your same data and come to a different conclusion."
Yes David that is true but it doesn't matter at all for John. If every single person but John came to a different conclusion, it still remains that John is not convinced by the evidence placed before him. It's terribly weak to say these things. It shows you are not trying to understand where John is coming from, but trying to figure out why he can't see what you see.
John, these are very well thought out arguments and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us. This is very meaty and hard to deal with the total article, so I must cherry pick at things:) For starters I also don't believe in the trinity as I understand Christianity does. I believe there to be a Godhead consisting of three separate beings, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. the all are one in purpose but three separate individuals. I believe this to fit the scriptures better than one being with 3 different personalities.
Obviously way too much here to bother doing a serious critique. I suppose the one thing that stuck out was the whole idea that God was originally a polytheistic being named Elohim. Now that is a position of some scholars, but to dogmatically assert that as historical fact is pretty bold to say the least. The idea that Yahweh was a child of El, is a terribly shoddy argument based essentially on a passage in Deuteronomy and a passage in the Psalms and a serious amount of gymnastics has to be done with the rest of the Old Testament corpus for it to stick. Certainly most of the biblical commentaries ive read do not accept the argument. Of course there are plenty of other issues but this seems to essentially be a summing up of the arguments John has made in the past, many of which im sure John would admit pre-suppose biblical inerrancy and such, which is fine as that is exactly what he is attacking.
Howdy John, thanks for the summary. The clarity and pleasantness of the presentation is appreciated. I have one comment and one question.
First, in your book do you explain why and how you chose the control and number of control beliefs you did?
Second, it seems that the support for your claim that Christians retreat to the possible isn't representative of Christian apologetics per se, but is one aspect of apologetical arguments. Acknowledging the post as only a summary, so you couldn't offer all the support you have, I'll just comment on one example you gave to explain what I'm thinking.
You commented on Craig's claim that it is possible to distinguish between fact and propaganda, saying he is retreating to the possible. But he is just making a claim about history in general. He does offer arguments that it is probable in the case of the resurrection that it is fact and not propaganda. So he first argues that it is possible in general, and then attempts to do it in particular. It seems incorrect to call this a retreat, for he is just be thorough by treating general method before particulars.
b
p.s. I see Lessing is still in play. Guess that means I didn't convince you... maybe next time:)
Brandon Dahm said...So he [Craig] first argues that it is possible in general, and then attempts to do it in particular.
Well then, see what he must do? The first argument he must make is that it's possible to understand what took place in history, which itself is debatable. What if he's wrong about this, and it's possible he's wrong! Besides, no one argues we can have a completely objective view of the past. It is always colored by our present understandings.
Then he must argue that a particular historical event took place, which, as an argument, cannot rise any higher in probability than the strength of his general argument about history.
Then he argues for a supernatual conclusion, which introduces a strong element of improbability, since miracles are by definition improbable.
Not much there to think his particular argument about the resurrection is probable, and much less to stake my whole life on that conclusion..
It's all about seeing things differently. I have on what Julia Sweeney calls her "no god glasses." And with those glasses on, everything makes better sense to me, and I've tried on the "Christian God glasses" for years for comparison. The real question is what glasses we should put on, and that was my argument in this post.
My starting point is different than Christians. They start with arguments for the existence of God. What they may not realize is that they assume what needs to be shown, and as such, they already presume God exists before they look at those theistic arguments, since before they even knew of these arguments they were already believers. How else can we explain why so many others stare those arguments in the face and do not blink? So like Dr. Strauss, they also start "from above."
I start "from below," since as soon as a person adopts a faith position she can argue for that position, at least sufficiently enough for her. Smart, educated people, can argue for most of anything. I gave plenty of reasons for starting with a healthy measure of skepticism, which concern the crucial issues Christians must deal with before they can start with their faith position "from above." On each of these crucial issues Christian apologists are reduced to saying, not that their answers are probable, but that their answers are possible. Yet anything not logically inconsistent is possible, so that gains the apologist no ground at all.
Christians have to say the issues I discussed are not important ones and that arguments for the existence of God are the important issues. But don't you think the issues I discussed trump the Christian's starting point "from above," given that whether or not someone accepts the theistic arguments depends upon whether or not they already believe? And if they do, all they have left is not probability, but possibility, which isn't much to base an apologetic or a faith upon.
...And if they do, all they have left is not probability, but possibility, which isn't much to base an apologetic or a faith upon.
Yeah, but John, that's exactly what faith is: believing in something for no good reason. So having something be merely possible (like the existence of an invisible unicorn in my bedroom) is all that is needed for faith to thrive..
This is a complete red herring to what I argued. My claim was, it does not seem to be the case that Christians only retreat to the possible. I offered an argument for this from one of your examples. Am I right that at least for the example in question you grant that Craig does argue for the probable and not merely the possible?
While my question doesn't deal with your specific one, I see it as an important one nonetheless, which must be answered in this context, since we're discussing the probability one assigns to the conclusions derived from history. If not hell, would you be willing to go to prison for five years or live in abject poverty for five years?
Yes, Craig does indeed claim his argument about the resurrection is probable. But claiming this and showing this are two different things. I've just said that his claim cannot rise above the probability of his general argument about history, much less when the supernatural element is introduced. Besides, the cumulative case of the reasons I provided trump his claim anyway.
Cheers.
"Besides, the cumulative case of the reasons I provided trump his claim anyway."
With all respect John for someone who claims to be a skeptic you certainly seems surpremely confident of your arguments.
So where does all of this leave us Mr. Loftus? Does that mean that since all we have is what nature and science can test and repeat, that we are simply machines made of meat?
Where does the spirit, the conciousness, the soul play in all of this? Do you really believe that sum total of John Loftus comes to a paltry $1.54 or whatever it is they estimate if they grind you down into all your pieces?
It is things like this that make me doubt that your control belief of science providing the most reliable answer.
For some reason I get the impression that in your view God can't work with the natural order of things. If it has been shown that prayer lights up certain nerves in the brain, does that immediately mean that we have a purely natural event. Or is it probable that this is the effect of a different reality or dimension coming into contact with our own, as the divine and infinite is coming into contact with our mortal beings?
Thank you for this post. It is the other one I have flagged because it gives a good summary of things and I've been chewing on it all afternoon.
GB, I'm no more confident that Christians are deluded than you are that Muslims are deluded.
John,
I didn't mean to imply your question wasn't important. I've been thinking about it, but I need to think about it some more. Thanks for the response.
Cheers.
b
David M. said...
"The more I read the different entries on this blog, the more it comes to light that it isn't about evidence, but arguments. A lot of the arguments here are made so that they are unable to be refuted from a philosophical/debate sort of standpoint."
My reply...
Hmm...and can sky the existence of deities be conclusively proven or disproven? Is it not true that any sky god is "unable to be refuted" by the very nature of the case?
Sounds like a "pot calling the kettle black" issue here.
(JH)
Fairly interesting post, John. I have a question for you, if you don't mind. From where exactly do you draw the following idea?
"This God fathered several sons including Yahweh, whose wife was Ashterah, to whom was given the people and land of Israel to rule over."
Also, what years did you attend LCCS? I know a few pastors who went to Lincoln around the same time you probably did; I wouldn't be surprised if we knew a few of the same people.
Take care,
Chris
Great post John!
JOhn,
I have to say that your muslim argument sounds a little like a last ditch effort. Maybe just because it was short, but sort of unlike your normal responses. Don't get so frustrated if you are conviced you are right!
Dave
dillie-o: yes, we are machines made out of meat. But that doesn't mean we can't think, and learn, and love. That's enough for me.
Chris, Deuteronomy 32:8-9 should be translated like this: "When the Most High (Elyon) gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all the descendants of Adam, he set up boundaries for the peoples after the number of the sons of God. The LORD's (Yahweh's) own portion was his people Israel."!
As far as God's wife goes, see here.
I attended LCS from 1979-1982.
Cheers.
dillie-o said: So where does all of this leave us Mr. Loftus? Does that mean that since all we have is what nature and science can test and repeat, that we are simply machines made of meat?
Do you have a serious problem with that? Is it the medium that bothers you--you would rather your existence be rooted in something ineffable? Why?
Where does the spirit, the conciousness, the soul play in all of this?
The beauty of the evidentiary position is that it's ok to answer "I don't know". Consciousness is real, but we don't know exactly what it entails. The spirit and soul have no settled definition, so they are literally meaningless entities.
Do you really believe that sum total of John Loftus comes to a paltry $1.54 or whatever it is they estimate if they grind you down into all your pieces?
No more than you believe that your computer is worth $0.22 because that's the worth of it's elemental composition, or even that the Mona Lisa is only worth the $20 in paint and canvas. Something does not need an ineffable soul to be of greater worth than its components.
It is things like this that make me doubt that your control belief of science providing the most reliable answer.
Even in your critique of empirical rationality you instinctively rely upon empirical rationality as your gold standard. How can you demonstrate an answer is most reliable? Why, you must verify it compared to its competitors! And how can you possibly verify it? Why, with evidence!
The irony is, you know and accept that empirical rationality is the most reliable way to look at the universe. When you need to cut an apple, do you use telekenisis? Do you pray for God to cut the apple? Do you telepathically commune with the apple spirit to convince it to split in twain for you? No; cutting apples is something that you know really exists, so you readily (even instinctively) reach for the empirically rational solution--you get a knife. Where people run into trouble is with the questions that empirical rationality does not offer easy answers to--where did the universe come from? What is the basis of the human experience? They are all derivatives of the same question--what is beyond our ability to perceive? Indeed, we don't even know for sure how valid these questions are. But one thing we do know for certain--they don't really affect anything. This is the only reason you have the luxury of entertaining irrational ideas about them--because they are unimportant in any practical sense.
Does it not suggest anything to you that you wholly rely upon empirical rationality to answer every question where you know for a fact that the answer actually matters? People who engage in faith-based healing die at a greater rate than those who engage in evidence-based medicine. Even more so people who engage in faith-based driving, faith-based flying, or faith-based swimming. Yet, because your survival does not depend upon the answer, you are willing to entertain faith-based solutions to what you consider the "big questions".
Even in the Bible, the ancient Hebrews relied upon empirical rationality to settle the "big questions". When the Israelites started worshipping other gods and experienced a drought, did Elijah sit down with them and start debating the metaphysical properties of Yahweh vs. Baal? Of course not. They set up an altar and had a contest; if Baal could light the sacrificial fire, then Baal was great, and if Yahweh could light the fire then Yahweh was great. Baal didn't light the fire, Yahweh did, so Yahweh was again accepted as the God of Israel and the prophets of Baal were slaughtered (1 Kings 18:17-40).
I made Elijah's challenge before and I'll make it again. You take your faith in God and pray as hard and as long as you like. I'll take my "faith" in science and a butane torch--no prayers needed. First one to light a fire wins.
I'll even give you a head start.
Shygetz you're funny. I'll call the Elijah challenge by your name, "the Shygetz challenge." Any takers? ;-)
Excellent post and discussion that followed. It’s also nice to read Joe’s comments and I look forward to reading more from him as well.
Lastly, John, I can’t wait for the new book. Is this a teaser from it?
Chris, this sums up half of my book where I defend my skeptical control beliefs. The other half deals with the specific evidences about the Christian truth claims in the Bible itself.
Okay, shygetz. You take the butane torch, and I will pray- and bring on the lox.
Here then are my two skeptical control beliefs: 1) There is a strong probability that every event has a natural cause; and, 2) The scientific method is the best (and probably the only) reliable guide we have for gaining the truth.
Two problems here that I spotted right away:.
In short, your "control beliefs" are nothing more than false premises, and your subsequent argument based on them fails..?
Darren, if you will respect our comment policy I will discuss these things with you.
You said…Miracles do not contradict natural laws. That's a false dichotomy invented by skeptics. A miracle is simply God doing what man could theoretically--if not actually--do provided he had the means.
Granted. I never said they did. Hume did though. How does this actually engage my argument?
You said…There is a whole lot more to reality than what science can tell us. For example, can you scientifically prove that minds other than your own exist? No, you can't. That's a question for the philosopher, not the scientist.
I dispute that there are such things as minds. There are such things as brains; that we know. But there is no evidence for the mind or the soul. Since anyone can defend practically anything what differentiates our beliefs is evidence. Lacking the evidence for the mind I don’t think it’s probable it exists. Take this for an example: If the mind is not located in space and time then why does it reside in the brain? Maybe it resides in my knee, maybe it exists outside of me on my shoulder? Maybe it comes and goes? Maybe the minds of people exchange bodies? Of course this is silly, but why do we need brains if there are minds?
In short, your "control beliefs" are nothing more than false premises, and your subsequent argument based on them fails
I think what I argued is coherent and based upon many of the very things you yourself accept as premises.?
To paraphrase an example I once read:
Jesus healing the man with a withered hand could be described in wholly naturalistic terms as the spontaneous regeneration of muscle and nerve endings. In those terms, it's not particularly miraculous. What makes it a miracle is that it happened at Jesus' word.?
When you say, "Yeah, and?" yourare implicitly agreeing with my point that John Loftus places unwarranted faith in science. There are plenty of things worth knowing which need something other than science to provide the answers.
I was composing a more detailed point-by-point response when I noticed this whopper:
I dispute that there are such things as minds.
I actually did a double-take when I saw that because I thought for sure I had read it wrong. Do you similarly doubt the existence of emotions? Thoughts? Logic and reason? None of them can be scientifically proven, yet to deny their existence is self-evidently absurd.
But just for fun, if "The scientific method is the best (and probably the only) reliable guide we have for gaining the truth" then I'd love to see your defense of logic using the scientific method. not always the best (nor is it the only) reliable guide we have for gaining the truth."
To be quite frank, John, your arguments here border on the irrational.!"
Thanks for the reply, John. That's the passage I figured you'd refer to, but I wasn't sure.
Do you know if Dr. Avalos interacts with Dr. Michael Heiser's work, in EBoS?
Regards,
Chris."
OK, John. Thanks anyway..
The scientific method is based on reasons and evidence, silly.
I'm just answering a question with a question. Did God create logic or not. You're claim is that God is the source of Logic. Is he?
The scientific method is based on reasons and evidence, silly..
I'm just answering a question with a question.
No, you're avoiding the question because you don't want to admit that I've just shot a very big hole in your argument.
I actually did a double-take when I saw that because I thought for sure I had read it wrong. Do you similarly doubt the existence of emotions? Thoughts? Logic and reason? None of them can be scientifically proven, yet to deny their existence is self-evidently absurd.
Just a guess here, but from actually reading the comment it appears John was saying that he disputes the existence of the mind as anything other than a property of the brain..
The fact that you use the phrase "scientifically proven" in your diatribe suggests you have no idea what science is about. We don't prove anything; we gather evidence, build models, and make conditional inferences. Mathemeticians prove..
Sure, science does not lead to absolute certainty..
The fact that you use the phrase "scientifically proven"...
Means nothing more than I am using informal conversational language in a blog discussion.
This was a great post. I'm really looking forward to reading your book!
To Shygetz: sometimes I feel the need to post a comment, but you end up saying everything better than I could have. Thanks!
I don't get it. So I have to be as "smart" as you to understand there is no God, and certainly not the God of the Bible?
Because you say agnosticism is the default position, therefore it is? And, according to you, the distance from it to atheism is nearer than to theism?
You call it a " "Case" against Christianity" but I see nothing resembling a true case trial.
Of the one's I read; ex. "...the donner party...", is not a "case" at all. And very similar in circumstances to many examples in the new and old testament which are sufficiently explained..
Hmmmm, that's a somewhat evangelical attitude (wanting the message to be believed and accepted), is it not?
I will hop in and comment on something quickly in regards to 1) Sociological Reasons when this was said: Since there are no mutually agreed upon tests to determine which religion to adopt, or none at all, social cultural and political forces will overwhelmingly determine what people believe..
For instance:
."
At any rate, the Metanarrative that is given here is interesting. Is atheism merely a cultural more that is neither as true or less true than any other religious belief?
Authors Francis Beckwith and Gregory Koukl respond to this self-defeating claim by pointing out.
Philosopher Roger Scruton drives this point home when he says, “A writer who says that there are no truths, or that all truth is ‘merely negative,’ is asking you not to believe him. So don’t.”
So even this first section must bow to the nature of logic, and this is the best test to determine which religion to adopt. thanks for commenting, but there is absolutely nothing self-defeating about using a test to decide what to believe if that test can be defended on its own apart from the conclusion we reach when using that test..”
Cheers my friend.
Diversity doesn't mean untruth.
Faiths that run counter to the laws of logic, are false.
The Christian-Theistic faith is judged by the same rules we judge all beliefs by..
Skepticism is healthy... and I think you may know (if not, you do now) that not enough Christians are skeptical of their own faith, or at least engage in answering the hard questions. But you aren't saying that you can never be sure about anything, are you? And your test is it by nature materialistic?
Questions aside, if you are born in India and have a belief that everything is an illusion, how do you build your house without violating what you believe and without accepting the Western understanding of nature, thus, rejecting (without explicitly knowing it) their own view? To say you do not exist violates the fact that a physical being just said they do not exist.
A great book that I can recommend (and I will buy yours soon to not only read when time allows, but also to support an author) is A World of Difference: Putting Christian Truth-Claims to the Worldview Test. That books used the strength of philosophy to “test” Christianity.
In fact, William Lane Craig, in every debate that has been voted on at secular universities has won against atheists. The publishers of the book Does God Exist? The Debate between Theists and Atheists -- Prometheus -- say the theists in this debate won it.
I am not here saying that such victories prove that one view is right while the other is wrong, just like one cannot say that because there is diversity of views that no one view is right.
What I am saying is that when you say that theists “have not successfully made their case,” this statement is false. It has been made good enough to beat many of the brightest atheist minds today as well as to change the sound mind of the past “pope” of atheism, Flew.
Remembering that book now, Does God Exist?, makes me smile because one of the contributors for the atheist side was Antony Flew, now he would be arguing for many of the points from the theistic side. I say many, but not all.
You still haven’t shown me how you have escaped your culture in order to judge others.
By-the-by, you are now linked under my "Blogs I Watch."
Papa said…Diversity doesn't mean untruth.
Agreed, but it does mean the odds are we are wrong.
Papa said…Faiths that run counter to the laws of logic, are false..
And the Euthypro dilemma applies to logic as well as morality. Must God abide by these laws of Logic or did he create them??
We did not assume logic; we assumed the universe and developed logic by observing how the universe works.
And as far as logic goes, have you seen this?
Papa said…You still haven’t shown me how you have escaped your culture in order to judge others..
Papa said…By-the-by, you are now linked under my "Blogs I Watch."
Great! You seem reasonable and likeable. I may reciprocate next time I change things.
I find many things you say interesting, but not in the way you think. I wish to give an example with some notes I put next to a boxed off portion in one of my philosophy textbooks (Philosophy: A Text with Readings, by Manuel Velasquez). The [boxed] additions are mine and will be followed by what I wrote in my book.
GROUPTHINK
The psychologist Irving Janis has coined the term groupthink to refer to the tendency of cohesive groups [psychologists?] to get increasingly out of touch with reality….
“Janis Gives the impression that he, unlike the rest of us, has somehow been able to evade the psychological forces that determine what (or how) the rest of us think – in other words, is this “groupthink” just psychologists thinking distortedly within their group[think]?”
So to comment on your post:
You said:.
Now, if there is disagreement and diversity about this “test” does this “mean the odds are we are wrong”?
Papa said...[is this a logical statement?... which laws of logic does this statement assume?].
A few of them that we agree on. What's the problem?
Pap said...[is your test influenced by your social background, peer pressure groups, dreams, aspirations and emotions?].
Are you saying that you rise about these things yourself? If so, that would be a very interesting claim indeed, but contrary to what psychology tells us. The best way to test anything is by asking for evidence. It alone can rise above these things.
Cheers.
I can put my beliefs to a test. But what "culture" do you accept as the presupposition to your outlook. I will make my point with a question Dr. Kenyon was asked:
“What are the general presuppositions that scientists make who study the origin of life?”
Dr. Kenyon responded:
“Well, I think there are two general kinds of presuppositions that people can make, one is that life, in fact, did arise naturalistically on the primitive earth by some kind of chemical evolutionary process.
“The second presupposition would be that life may or may not have arisen by a naturalistic, chemical process.
.
“If you have the second presupposition, your still going to be doing experiments, but your going to be more open to the possibility that the data, as they [it] come[s] in from those studies may actually be suggesting a different explanation of origins altogether.”
I will elucidate even further with how some presuppositions can limit your answers to the all important questions. This limit is created by the secularized Western “scientism” that infect many skeptics:
“Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us.”
Or, is it this:
“Science is the human activity of seeking logical explanations for what we observe in the world around us.”
So what you are saying is that your test is greater, or more perfect than the empirical method, right?
Papa Giorgio-
I've never heard of Irving Janus, but that is not what "groupthink" means in modern social psychology.
To put it succinctly, it simply means that larger groups of people have more of a tendency to stop looking at alternatives than if they were all working individually.
"Groupthink" in and of itself is not a good or bad thing. If the group consensus is bad, then not looking at alternatives is bad, and so forth.
Incedentally, I think that most social psychologists would suggest that anonymous or near anonymous posting in a forum such as this would be one of the best ways to combat possible groupthink
So kudos to you for helping stave off groupthink.
Patrick,
So you are saying that, for instance, when a large group (say, high school biology teachers) inform my son that life can come from non-life, that they have more of a tendency to stop looking at alternatives than if they were all working individually?
Got it.
By-the-by, Janis is the person who coined and founded groupthink.
Papa-
Thanks for getting back to me so fast..
The "classic" way to combat groupthink would be to split these castaways into several smaller groups to come up with ideas (to whatever problem you want to assign them).
It seems that high school biology teachers are subject to some constraints that would, in theory, lead to group think, but are also seperated into smaller groups which, in theory, combats groupthink.
Furthermore, Scientific theories are submitted for peer review, which, while not perfect, is a pretty good way to combat groupthink, and arguably the entire purpose.
I would argue that mega-churches in particular, and churches in general are much more fertile ground for groupthink.
My best,
Patrick.
Please remove this portion from your page because anyone, regardless of their beliefs or "glasses", can see it is a gross misrepresentation to help make a weak argument.
I'll be interested to see if you post this. God bless you in your choices and search for the truth. I hope that an open mind and the Holy Spirit will guide you to Christ.
Aaron Smith
PS- Science is simply trying to learn what God already knows, uses, and created.
Harry, what were the three questions that had stumped Archer? |
Trans-Continental Tour of the Distinguished Violiniste Leonora Jackson And the American Prima Donna Soprano Sibyl Sammis Assisted by Chas. E. Clarke Baritone Alex Mac Fayden Pianist Leonora Jackson Management Brockway Lecture Bureau, 6101 Penn Avenue, Pittsburg, Pa. Leonora Jackson THE management takes pleasure in announcing for the season of 1905-1906 1 the trans-continental tour of the world- renowned violinist, Leonora Jackson, the popular concert prima donna, Sibyl Sammis, and assisting artists. Miss Jackson returns to America after an absence of three years in Europe, where she has been adding new laurels to her already brilliant career. Her success has been truly phenom¬enal. Such is her power to inspire great audiences, such her genius and marvelous mastery of the violin, such the incomparable charm of her personality and sweet music that she has taken Europe and America by storm. Queen Victoria decorated Leonora Jack¬son with the Victoria Star. The Prussian Government awarded her the Mendelssohn State Prize at Berlin. She has appeared on programs with Paderewski and the greatest celebrities, and as soloist of the most renowned musical societies (Leipzic Gewandhaus, London Philharmonic, Paris Colonne Orchestra, etc.), where no American violinist had ever before been engaged. Her American tours, as well, have been veritable triumphs. At Los Angeles, Cal., for example, the grammar schools were dismissed and over 4,000 children welcomed the gifted artist to their city. She has been engaged by the leading musical organizations and clubs from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and America is justly proud of her, for she has achieved a place of honor "among'the world's most noted violin artists " and "a name that will live in musical history." Phenomenal Career of Leonora Jackson "A NAME THAT WILL LIVE IN MUSICAL HISTORY" October 17, 1896—Berlin Debut with Philharmonic Orchestra, Joachim conducting. November 11, 1896—Played before German Empress, and Court. Winter, 1896-'97—Tour in Germany. October 1, 1897—Awarded Mendelssohn State Prize by Prussian Government. The most coveted prize in Germany. Autumn, 1897—Second German tour. February 5, 1898—London Debut. Soloist Queen's Hall Symphony Orchestra. Spring and Fall, 1898—First and second English tours, including Wales. Soloist Lamoureux and Crystal Palace Symphony Orchestras, London; Liverpool and Leeds Philharmonics; Halle Orchestra at Manchester, etc., etc. Concerts with Melba, Nordica, Patti, Pader¬ewski and leading musical societies. December, 1898—Tour in Scotland with Scottish Or¬chestra. (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, etc.) December, 20, 1898—Soloist Royal Belgian Symphony Orchestra, Antwerp. Spring, 1899—Third German tour. Soloist famous Leipsic Gewandhaus concerts, under Nikisch; Bremen, Cologne, Berlin, etc., etc. March 8, 1899—Soloist London Philharmonic Society. April 17, 1899—Played before King of Sweden at Paris. April 23, 1899—Paris Debut. Soloist famous Colonne Symphony Orchestra at the Chatelet. Tuly 17, 1899—Played before Queen Victoria at Wind¬sor, who decorated her with Victoria Star. August 17, 1899—Played before H. R. H. Princess Beat¬rice and Royal party, at Isle of Wight. October, 1899—Third English tour. (Including Scot¬land.) November, 1899—Fourth German tour. Soloist famous Kaim Orchestra at Munich, under Weingartner; Leip¬sic, Frankfort and Strasburg Philharmonics, etc., etc. December, 1899—Swiss tour. Geneva Philharmonic; Neuchatel, etc. Spring, 1900—American tour, of sixty concerts, includ¬ing appearances with the New York Philharmonic, the Chicago, Cincinnati, Pittsburg and St. Louis Sym¬phony Orchestras, and eight concerts en tour with the Boston Symphony Orchestra under Gericke. Season, 1900-'01—Trans-Continental tour of the United States—160 concerts. Maine to California, Canada to the Gulf. Season 1901-'02—Second Trans-Continental tour—184 concerts. Canada and every State of the Union, ex¬cept the Dakotas. September, 1902, to Autumn, 1905—In Europe. Visits Prague, and is coached by the great Bohemian master, Sevcik, the teacher of Kubelik. Season 1904-'05—Fourth English tour. Fifth German tour. Concerts Vienna, Berlin, Hamburg, Leipsic (Gewandhaus), Paris, London, etc. Autumn, 1905—Returns to America for a third Trans-Continental tour. Leonora Jackson—Press Extracts Zeitung— audience by She St. Paul, Minn. Schubert Club—A fascinating artist and unique interpreter.—St. Paul Pioneer Press. Des Moines, Iowa. Musical Guild—She is an artist in the highest sense of the word.—Des Moines State Reg¬ister. Portland Oregonian—Carried Portland by storm. St. Paul Pioneer Press—A fascinating artist. Alexander MacFadyen THE selection for a pianist and accom-M C*\ Pan*st f°r Miss Jackson and Miss ft J Sammis was not an easy task, and out of hundreds of applications we selected Alexander MacFadyen from the music¬al city of Milwaukee. Mr. MacFadyen has been before the public both as a soloist and accompanist for several seasons, and is not only a brilliant player but a most satisfying accompanist. He took the teachers' course under Arthur Friedham at the Chicago Musical College, and last year completed the graduating course under Rudolph Ganz, winning the gold medal in both courses. Milwaukee Sentinel—The artist was assisted by Alex¬ander MacFadyen, a young pianist who has made good studies under several noted teachers, and his work last night exhibited talent of a high order. Milwaukee Evening Wisconsin—Alexander Mac¬Fadyen was the accompanist for the occasion, and also played numbers from Brahms with his accustomed sympathetic interpretation. Berlin Vossische She took the large storm. Cincinnati Enquirer charmed her audience. Leipsic Neusten Nachrichten —Overtowers everything in the way of ladies' violin playing ever heard here. San Francisco Examiner—A violinist of extraordinary merit. Paris Le Soleil—Her success was that of a great artist. Munich Nachrichten — Proved a master of her instrument. Toronto (Canada) Globe-One of the greatest violinists ever heard in this city. Edinburgh Scotsman — Made friends of her entire audience. W. F. Apthorp, in Boston Transcript — The searching beauty of her tone, the purity of her sentiment, her earnest con¬centration and fine musical in¬stinct are of a very rare sort. Bremen Nachrichten—An art¬ist of gifts as phenomenal as her training. New York Tribune—A model of unaffected grace. Soloist Royal Belgian Orchestra, Antwerp—She is truly an artist of the first rank.—Antwerp Le Matin. Charles E. Clarke THE Canadian Baritone began his musical studies under the able direction of Miss Denzil, of the Toronto Con¬servatory, from whom he obtained a scholarship. Later he studied with Rechab Taudy, who is everywhere acknowledged as Canada's leading teacher of singing. Mr. Clarke created a veritable furore last season and is now abroad studying with the best teachers. Belleville Intelligencer—Mr. C. E. Clarke's singing was perhaps the most enjoyable feature of the evening. His vocal numbers showed him to be a singer with a line method and a rich, pure, full voice. He will be warmly welcomed on his next appearance in Belleville. Aurora Banner—The treat of the evening was the sing¬ing of Mr. C. E. Clarke, baritone soloist, of Toronto. He possesses a voice rich, soft and clear as a silver bell. He sang with great feeling. Lindsay Watchman Warder—Mr. C. E. Clarke deep¬ened the favorable impression of last year and received an enthusiastic welcome. Napanne—The vocal solos of Mr. Charles Clarke pleased everyone. He has a well trained, full, rich voice, singing without the least effort. W. S. Lacy, Secretary Y. M. C. A. Oskaloosa, Iowa— We had a great treat here yesterday in the opportunity of hearing Charles E. Clarke. Our people here are very critical of music; so much so that a few years ago, in despair, the committee furnished a list of talent for the year that did not have one number of music in the whole course; so you see they are not easily pleased. Mr. Clarke completely won the hearts of all who heard him with his voice, the way he used it, and his manner of delivery. You need have no hesitancy in recommending him as strongly as you like. He is a wonder. Ottawa Citizen—The soloist, Mr. C. E. Clarke, who made such a favorable impression last season, was given a warm welcome. In the "Yeoman's Wedding" song Mr. Clarke's robust baritone voice was heard to best advan¬tage. Lindsay Post—Mr. Charles E. Clarke's vocal solos were good. He possesses a rich, round baritone voice and has a clear, smooth enunciation. Ottawa Journal—Mr. Charles E. Clarke, vocalist of the evening, is the possessor of a very sweet, clear, resonant baritone voice, and was loudly applauded after each number. Mr. Clarke's name only appeared twice on the program, but double that number would not have been too much. Waterloo (Iowa) Courier—Never before in the history of the Waterloo Chautauqua Assembly has the Associa¬tion presented to its patrons a soprano soloist to equal Miss Sibyl Sammis. Evening Telegram—There was a new star in the firma¬ment of "Venice" last night. It was Miss Sibyl Sammis, a dramatic soprano, who made her debut as soloist at the Duss concert at the Madison Square Garden. Miss Sammis gave "Dich Theure Halle," from "Tannhaeuser," which she rendered very acceptably. Her rendition of the heavy Wagner music was excellent, and she was applauded until she returned with an encore. Her other number was Mascheroni's "For All Eternity." Montgomery (Ala.) Advertiser—Miss Sammis* voice is unquestionably the best ever heard here. Portland (Me.) Daily Press—Miss Sammis has an admirable voice, clear and musical, and of great com¬pass. Aurora Banner—Friday evening last a sacred concert was held in the Methodist Church here which proved to be a decided success. The treat of the evening was the singing of Mr. Charles E. Clarke, of Toronto. He possesses a rich, soft voice, as clear and sweet as a silver bell. He sang all his selections with great feeling. If at any time he should return to Aurora he will be greeted with many new hearers. Ottawa Journal—Mr. Charles E. Clarke, a baritone with a voice of good quality, sang two songs, for each of which he was recalled by a most enthusiastic au¬dience. Stouffville Sentinel—One of the musical treats of the evening was rendered by Mr. Charles E. Clarke, the gifted young baritone. He possesses a voice soft and sweet, and certainly deserves praise for the way in which he sang on Friday evening. His mild, yet forci-ble, manner fascinated the audience, which greeted him with loud applause. Boston (Mass.) Journal—Miss Sammis has a pure, clear and brilliant voice, and of great range. Syracuse (N. Y.) Courier—Miss Sammis possesses a voice of unusual range, which is as melodious in its quality as it is flexible and obedient to her will. Boston (Mass.) Globe—Miss Sibyl Sammis' rendition of Mascheroni's "For All Eternity" was an artistic tri¬umph for this great artist, and a rare treat for the audience. Montreal (Que.) Star—Miss Sibyl Sammis* solo was accorded a triple recall. Bangor (Me.) Commercial—Miss Sibyl Sammis was a surprise in that the first roar of enthusiasm over Schu-mann-Heink was scarcely subdued when they gave Miss Sammis an ovation which might have delighted the heart of any singer. She has molded her voice into something like a perfect condition, and uses it with great intel¬ligence. Sibyl Sammis 'MISS SIBYL SAMMIS is one of those rare artists whom one hears none too often. She is the possessor of a highly cultivated voice of wide range and power, her execution is fluent, facile and smooth, and her articulation perfect. Miss Sammis is not only endowed with great musical gifts, but with a personal magnetism, a happy disposition, and a charming face and figure. As Sam Jones says: " She is a combin¬ation of cyclone and nightingale." New York Journal—Back from abroad, where her voice received a thorough training, Miss Sibyl Sam¬mis, beautiful and talented, awaited her chance. She got it at Madison Square Garden, and, without a mo¬ment's time for rehearsal, sang so successfully the Wagnerian program that at one bound she became a so¬ciety operatic favorite. Never did a fair prima donna receive a more en-thusiastic approval. Beginning with an aria from Gounod's "Queen of Sheba," Miss Sammis finished tri¬umphantly with "My Old Kentucky Home." Caught on the telephone at her hotel at 7:15 o'clock in the eve¬ning, Miss Sammis .ot only helped Mr. Duss out of a serious predica¬ment by taking the place of Miss Shanna dimming, who had suddenly become hoarse, but the band leader was introduced to the new artist, who so delighted him that she has been engaged to sing in the place of Suzanne Adams the week beginning July 12. New York Daily News—Miss Sibyl Sammis, who has already obtained a high degree of popularity among music-lovers in this city, is Director Duss' principal soloist at "Venice in New York," in Madison Square Garden this week. The program an¬nounced for Tuesday and Wednes¬day evenings is of a nature that will allow Miss Sammis to be heard in several musical selections in which she has won especial distinction.' New York Evening Telegram— Miss Sibyl Sammis was the soloist. She has a soprano voice of good quality, and she showed her audience that she knew how to use it. She chose the intermezzo of "Cavalleria Rusticana" for her introductory number, and sang it in finished style. In the flower song from "Faust" she showed an intelligent appreciation of its sentiment. New York Musical Courier—This handsome singer possesses a voice of power and expressiveness, allied with the most distinct enunciation. New York Herald—For his "Venice in New York," at the Madison Square Garden last night, Mr. Duss was very near to being left without a vocal soloist. What made the situation the more serious was that it was Wagner night, and a special program had been arranged, in which the works of that composer had a prominent place. Miss Shanna dim¬ming, this week's soloist, attended a rehearsal yesterday, and, although very hoarse, expected to sing until about six o'clock, when the condition of her voice became so bad that she reluctantly sent word to Mr. Duss that she could not sing. The bandmaster was at his wits' end until nearly seven o'clock, when he learned that Miss Sibyl Sammis was in the city. He found her at the Hotel Lincoln, and without rehearsal she took Miss Cumming's place on the program and sang with marked success the selec¬tions already chosen for her. Fall River (Mass.) Globe—Miss Sibyl Sammis, the gifted Chicago singer who accompanies the band as soloist, won a veritable ovation. Worcester (Mass.) Spy—Miss Sammis' execution is fluent, facile and smooth. Her voice is of wide range and great power, and her stage pres¬ence is most charming. New Orleans (La.) Picayune—Miss Sibyl Sammis, the prima donna of the band, was rapturously applauded and responded to three encores. North Adams (Mass.)—Miss Sammis next appeared, her rendering of Gounod's cavatina from the opera of "The Queen of Sheba" being a decided gem. Her voice is one of remarkable range, the enunciation clear and perfect, and she made a most favorable impression. Her work has never been surpassed in this city. THE SMITH & NIXON PIANO USED Leonora Jackson—Press Extracts AN artist's rank is measured largely by the class of engagements he commands. Ask the questions, cf What great Symphony Orchestras have engaged him as soloist ?" "With what eminent artists has he been heard in public ? " These are the tests of rank. Leonora Jackson easily bears these tests. She is an artist her country may well be proud of, for there has never been a lady violinist of any nationality who, at so early an age, has been the soloist of so many great musical societies, played before so many crowned heads and won such a reputation in so many different countries. The following brief extracts are selected from hundreds of similar press notices received by Miss Jackson in Europe in 1896, '97, '98, '99 and later. They relate to the most famous musical societies, societies by whom no American violin soloist had ever before been engaged. IN EUROPE IN AMERICA a Berlin Debut, Philharmonic Orchestra—Her playing was so animated, her phrasing and tone work so superb, that she took the large audience by storm.—Dr. Krebs, in Berlin Vossische Zeitung. Soloist Queen's Hall Symphony, London—Miss Jackson has positive genius. Seldom have I seen an English audience—a large and representative one—so moved by a youthful artist on a first appearance. Her tone is exceedingly pure and beautiful in quality, her intonation absolutely faultless, her technique brilliant and correct, and her style reflects all the dignity and distinction of the school in which she has been trained.— Herman Klein, in London Sunday Times. Concert with Paderewski, London—The finest pianist in the world cannot extinguish by superior effulgence the light of artists such as Miss Leonora Jackson.— London Daily Telegraph. Soloist Scottish Orchestra, Edinburgh—Miss Jack¬son made friends of her entire audience. She is sure of a hearty welcome whenever she returns.—Edinburgh Scotsman. Soloist Aix-la-Chapelle Symphony—Harmonics such as she entices from her violin, so perfect, so varied and beautiful in light and shade, we have never before heard. —Aix-la-Chapelle Tageblatt. Soloist Queen's Hall Symphony, London—(Second appearance at those concerts.) Miss Jackson's un¬qualified triumph was acknowledged by the audience with plaudits that brought her back to the platform again and again. Here is a violinist whose rare talent and still rarer artistic temperament shed lustre upon her native land.—Herman Klein, in the London Sunday Times. Soloist Bremen Philharmonic—She proved to be an artist of gifts as phenomenal as her training. A virile bow arm, likewise a tone production which, as regards infallible intonation, tenderness and fullness, finds few its equal, furthermore marvelous accuracy in the most complicated passages, these were some of the qualities which aroused unbounded admiration. Miss Jackson had a brilliant triumph and it is to be hoped the gifted artist will visit our city soon again.—Bremen Nach-richten. Soloist Leipsic Gewandhaus—(Under the eminent Conductor Nikisch. The oldest and most famous Sym¬phony Concerts in Europe.) Miss Leonora Jackson won by storm a place of honor among contemporary vio¬lin artists, and although in years scarcely more than a child, yet she overtowers everything in the way of ladies' violin playing ever heard here.—Prof. Martin Krause in Leipsic Neusten Nachrichten. Soloist London Philharmonic—(The second oldest Orchestral Society in Europe. Founded in 1811.) Miss Jackson, fresh from her triumph in Germany, gave an admirable interpretation of the Mendelssohn Concerto. She merits a place in the very first rank of violinists of the day. Her success was great and well deserved.— Arthur Hervey, in London Morning Post. At Boston with Boston Symphony—What a wonder¬ful bow arm she has. The searching beauty of her tone, the purity of her sentiment, her earnest concentration and fine musical instinct are of a very rare sort. She plays with authority.—W. F. Apthorp, in Boston Even¬ing Transcript. At New York with Boston Symphony—Leonora Jackson, who appeared here with the Boston Symphony Orchestra last night in Carnegie Hall, was called nine times after playing Mendelssohn's Concerto. She won the audience as" soon as she came on the stage. She has a peculiarly attractive manner, and this, added to her splendid equipment as a musician, established her in great favor.—New York Press. At Baltimore with Boston Symphony—In the entire gamut of lady violinists, including Maud Powell, Lady Halle, Tua and Urso, there is hardly one in whom can be found the combination of virtuoso qualities displayed by Miss Jackson.—Baltimore Morning Herald. At Pittsburg with Pittsburg Symphony—Her fame as a violinist of international reputation was fully sus¬tained by her performance last night. Her gracefulness, strength, vigor, technique, fire, place her among the best of the great violinists who have appeared here.—Pitts¬burg Commercial Gazette. Portland, Maine—Great technique goes without saying in violinists of international repute. But the superb mas¬tery shown in this young artist's playing, such nobility and breadth of style, such perfect poise of brain and nerve are nothing short of marvelous. It is genius made manifest in a body exquisitely adapted to its expression. —Portland Daily Eastern Argus. Burlington, Vermont—Leonora Jackson, America's leading violiniste, demonstrated her just claim to that title last evening at the Opera House, her concert under the auspices of the Ethan Allen Club attracting a large . audience.—Burlington Free Press. At Providence with Boston Symphony—Scored a pronounced success. She has received the largest amount of advance advertising accorded any artist in recent years. This would have been most dangerous were her talents mediocre. It is a pleasure to record the fact that in every way she fulfilled expectations. The audiences fairly overwhelmed her with applause.— Providence Journal. Detroit, Michigan. Hofman Concert—She has the true virtuoso mastery of the violin. In a thousand ways she manifested extreme delicacy of touch.—Detroit Tribune. Indianapolis Symphony Association—Her wonderful performance is the violin event of the season.—Indian¬apolis Journal. At Chicago with Theodore Thomas—Leonora Jackson was given the most enthusiastic reception any soloist of her sex has had at these concerts since Teresa Carreno appeared three years past. Her tone is broader than that of any other woman violinist. It might not be far away from fact to term Miss Jackson the Carreno of the violin.—Chicago Evening Post. THE SMITH & NIXON PIANO USED
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E 263 .N8 N15 Copy 1 GovernorAbner Nash ADDRESS BY J. G. DE ROULHAC HAMILTON NOVEMBER 15. 1909 PRESENTATION OF PORTRAIT OF GOVERNOR ABNER NASH TO THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN THE Hall of the House of Representatives, at Raleigh, NOVEMBER 15, 1909, BY THE NORTH CAROLINA SOCIETY OF THE SONS OF THE REVOLUTION. ADDRESS BY J. G. DE ROULHAC HAMILTON. Alumni Profesjor of History in the Univereity of North Carolina, a Member of the Society. E2.63 OFFICERS North Carolina Society of the Sons of the Revolution NOVEMBER 15. 1909—NOVEMBER 15, 1910. PRESIDENT, Hon. THOMAS S. KENAN, Raleigh. VICE-PRESIDENT. Hon. J. BRYAN GRIMES, Raleigh. SECRETARY. MARSHALL DeLANCEY HAYWOOD, Raleigh. REGISTRAR. DANIEL HARVEY HILL. Lit. D., West Raleigh. TREASURER, WILLIAM WATKINS ROBARDS. Raleigh. CHAPLAIN, The Rev. ROBERT BRENT DRANE, D. D., Edenton. BOARD OF MANAGERS: The Officers, ex offlcio, AND Alexander Botd Andrews, Jr., Chairman. Cable Axtgustus WooDEUP5,«'t]*.S.A., Junius Davis, William Enos Stone, Charles Earl Johnson, Collier Cobb, Alfred IMoore Scales, Julian Shakespeare Caer. Thomas Maslin. ADDRESS. May it please your Excellency: On the part of the Worth Carolina Society of the Sons of the Revolution, I present through you to the State of ISTorth Caro-lina the portrait of Abner ISTash, patriot legislator, and second Governor of the Commonwealth. ^HE LIFE AJSTD PUBLIC SERVICES OF ABN"EIl NASH. In the year 1730, or thereabouts, there came to Virginia John Nash, best known to North Carolina as the progenitor of three of her distinguished public men, namely, Abner Nash, lawyer, legislator, and governor; Francis Nash, legislator and soldier; and Frederick Nash, legislator and chief justice of the Supreme Court of the State. Before emigrating he married Ann Owen, a daughter of Sir Hugh Owen, of Tenby, Pembrokeshire, "Wales. Thus well equipped for life, he sought fortune in the New World, settling first in Henrico county and later in Prince Edward, in the fork of the Bush and Appomattox rivers, where he purchased a large estate, to which he gave the name of Tem-pleton Manor. In his new home he won prominence and honor, filling at various times the offices of justice of the peace, high sheriff, member of the House of Burgesses, lieutenant of the county, and captain in the Indian war. Later he was chairman of the county committee of safety and a member of the Virginia convention of 1775. He was one of the founders of Hampden- Sydney College and permanent chairman of its board of trustees. He died in 1776. To him were born four sons and four daugh-ters. The third son, named x\bner for his grandfather, Abner Nash, of Tenby, Wales, was born about 1740. Nothing is known of his early life or training, but he showed throughout life the signs of a liberal education and considerable culture. In 1762 he appeared in Rowan county as an attorney before the county court, and in 1763 he came to Hillsboro with his younger brother, Francis, who settled there about this time, but he did not remain. Probably he was viewing the country before set-tling down to the practice of law. He seems finally to have located himself in Halifax, for from there he made his first pub-lic appearance, in 1764, as a member of the Assembly. Although failing to select Hillsboro as his residence, he was there fre-quently in the following years, visiting his brother and prac-ticing in Orange Court. He became the owner of a number of town lots there, and, after placing a dam across the Eno, erected the first mill within the corporate limits of the town. In 1765 Nash was again a member of the Assembly from the town of Halifax, and in 1769, 1770 and 1771 he represented Halifax county, but soon thereafter he removed to i^ew Bern and entered actively upon the practice of his profession. After the death of Governor Dobbs he married his young and attrac-tive widow, whose maiden name was Justina Davis. Out of this marriage grew the famous Martin court quarrel. Dobbs, by his will, left £2,000 to Mrs. Dobbs, chargeable upon his lands in North Carolina. Upon the failure of Conway and Richard Dobbs, his executors, to pay this, Nash, who by this time had acquired a personal as well as a professional interest in the legacy, sued them, and an attachment was issued under the Tryon Court law. The defendants at once procured an injunc-tion, which the Provincial Chancery Court made perpetual. The Privy Council, hov^^ever, upon Nash's appeal, reversed this decision. In the Privy Council at this time were Lord Hills-boro, Secretary of State for the Colonies, and Lord Hertford, the Lord Chamberlain, both close friends of the Dobbs family. Through their influence, it is supposed, the instructions against the provisions of the court law relating to attachments were given to Governor Martin, which led to the angry quarrel be-tween him and the Assembly that resulted in the disappearance of courts in the province of North Carolina and gave a great impetus to the revolutionary movement. Mrs. Nash died in 1773, and not many years later Nash mar-ried Mary Jones, an heiress from Chowan. He continued to reside in jSTew Bern, and from there he was a delegate to all four of the Provincial Congresses. He was a member of the Pro-vincial Council in 1775 and was speaker of the first House of Commons, in 1777. The next year he was elected to the Con-tinental Congress, but declined to serve. In 1779 he was sent to the Senate from Jones County, which had been newly erected, and upon the resignation of Allen Jones he was unanimously chosen speaker. In 1780 he was elected governor by a large majority and served until June 25, 1781, He was again elected to the House of Commons in 1782 from Jones, where his resi-dence now was ; and in the same year he was elected to Congress, of which body he remained a member, with the exception of one small interval, until his death, December 2, 1786. Having thus briefly sketched his career as an introduction, I ask your attention to a consideration of Abner Nash, first, as a lawyer and citizen; second, as a legislator, state and national; and, third, as Governor. AS LAWYER AND CITIZEN. When Abner Nash came to the bar in North Carolina there were about forty-five lawyers in the province. This small num-ber argues a large practice for most of them, and Nash soon shared in it and took the prominent place to which his talents entitled him. We can, fortunately, from evidence nearly con-temporary, form an estimate of his ability and power as an advocate. Archibald Maclaine Hooper said of him : "The name of Abner Nash always brings to my imagination the inflamed energy of Demosthenes, and produces some of that perturbation which is felt in reading his orations. The eloquence of Nash and Hooper must, indeed, have exhibited a fine contrast. Nash was vehemence and fire; Hooper was stately and diffusive elo-quence." Among his associates at the bar were such giants as Iredell, Moore, Hooper, Maclaine, Burke and, towards the lat-ter part of his career, William Richardson Davie. By them he was regarded with respect and with admiration, and by most of his associates lie seems to have been lield in great affection and personal esteem. We know but little of the details of bis professional life, but the few facts known are interesting. The most notable of his early cases was, of course, tbe Dobbs case. Almost his last was Bayard vs. Singleton, famous as one of the earliest cases in which the power of tbe judiciary to declare the uncon-stitutionality of a legislative act was asserted. Here he ap-peared for the validity of the act. There are many contem-porary allusions to his position at the bar, among tbem that of Governor Martin, who, in writing to Lord Dartmouth, spoke of him as "an eminent lawyer," but, in view of his Whiggish activity, added, "but a most unprincipled character." Nash was of a type not infrequent in that day. Genial, easy of manner, luxurious in taste and habit, convivial and somewhat given to extravagance, without due thought of the morrow, he lived on a large and fine estate near ISTew Bern, called Pem-broke, in memory of the old home of the xTashes in Wales, where it was his delight to dispense a gracious and charming hospi-tality to the many friends of the family. Here he lived until Major Craig captured l!^ew Bern when he took to flight. In this way his books and papers were lost, and for that reason our knowledge of his is far less than his career deserves. When the Revolution began he was possessed of a large fortune, but at its close all was lost, and the worry and anxiety consequent upon his position had caused a total breakdown of his health. By the time of his death he had in some measure replaced his for-tune, but he was never a well man again. In common with the leaders of his time, JSTash favored educa-tion, and we find him among the original trustees of Queen's Museum. He was also one of the trustees of Granville Hall. As was to be expected from his associations and sympathies, he was a member of the Tryon party during the Regulation, and, in fact, was a major of brigade, or brigadier general, in the force raised by Governor Tryon for the suppression of the out-break. Living in the stormy period in which he did, at the center of provincial government, a vigorous thinker, who was deeply in-terested in public questions, it was not unnatural that his voice was soon raised in behalf of his country and that his best efforts and most devoted service were given to her. We thus come to his career as a legislator. AS LEGISLATOR, STATE AND NATIONAL. Kash's first legislative service, as has already been mentioned, was in the Assembly of 1764, in which he represented the borough of Halifax. His only action of importance, so far as can be judged from the journal, was a motion to establish a post road from Suffolk, Virginia, to the South Carolina line. In 1769 he was again in the Assembly, this time from Halifax county, and was returned in 1770. His reputation had grown by this time, and his prominence in the body is shown by his committee service, for he served on no less than nine general committees, besides many special ones. Lack of time forbids the mention of these, with the single exception of one notable for the men who composed it. The committee to answer the governor's message, besides Xash, was composed of Robert Howe, Samuel Johnston, Edmund Fanning, Maurice Moore, Cornelius Harnett, and Joseph Hewes, all of whom, except Fan-ning, were later to become dislhi-xuished for their zeal in the patriot cause. Few colonial committees could be found that had such a group of talent upon them. In the Assembly of 1771 he was also quite active. This service made him well acquainted with the condition and sentiment of the province and was a valuable preparation for his later Revolutionary activity. Within the next few years the long-standing discontent of the colonies with British administration led to open revolt. JSTorth Carolina did not lag behind the other colonies in resistance to arbitrary power. Governor Martin, who succeeded Tryon, was of a character and disposition that soon caused him to incur the enmity, distrust and contempt of the !N"orth Carolinians, and 8 their feeling was intensified by the long quarrel in regard to the courts. Nash was, from the beginning of the movement, an earnest and active patriot; and on August 9, 1774, he was elected by a public meeting, held in JSTew Bern, one of the dele-gates to the first Provincial Congress, which met at New Bern August 25, 1774. After the adjouinment of the Congress, Nash was not idle, but in New Bern and the adjaceisi country was using his great personal influence and his fiery and magnetic eloquence in arous-ing the people. He was a member of the local safety committee and signed its address to the people in March, 1775. Governor Martin, indeed, supposed that he had written it, for, writing to Lord Dartmouth on March 10th, he said: ''I enclose to your Lordship an advertisement of a committee in the town that may serve as a specimen of their atrocious falsehoods which are re-ported to stimulate the people to revolt. . . . It is supposed to be the composition of a Mr. Nash, one of the subscribers, who is an eminent lawyer, but a most unprincipled character of this country." On May 23d a meeting of the committee was held in New Bern, and afterwards a great crowd of the inhabitants waited on the Governor. Nash, whom the Governor noAv styled "the oracle of the committee" and "the principal promoter of sedition," presented the protest of the people against the dis-mounting of the cannon with which the palace was fortified. All of this time, the inhabitants, under the lead of Nash and a few others, were organizing military companies, and on May 30th Governor Martin took flight and royal authority ceased to exist in North Carolina. How much the activities of Nash had grated upon the sensi-bilities of the Governor is to be seen in a letter to Dartmouth, written after his flight : "I hold ifc my indispensable duty to mention to your Lordship Cornelius Harnett, John Ashe, Robert Howe, and Abner Nash as persons ^v]\o have marked themselves out as proper objects for such distinction [?'. e., proscription] in this colony by their unremitted efforts to promote sedition and rebellion here, froui the beginning of the discontents in America to this time, that they stand foremost among the patrons of revolt and anarchy." In the meantime the second Provincial Congress met at the same time with the last royal Assembly, on April 4th. ISTash was also a member of this, though not of the Assembly. He vtras also a delegate to the third Provincial Congress, which met at Hillsboro, xVugust 20th, but he did not attend, probably on account of sickness. By this Congress he was elected a member of the Provincial Council, then created as the central executive body of the rapidly developing independent State. Se was present at all its meetings, and seems to have borne an active part in its labors. We find him with his colleague from New Bern, James Coor, in charge of the fortifications at Hanging Point, on the Neuse, and authorized to charter vessels and carry on an export trade from New Bern for the purpose of procuring arms and ammunition. With others, he was commissioned to equip armed vessels to go out from New Bern, and was directed to prepare for arming the province against British invasion. By the Council he was sent, in February, 1776, with John Kin-chen to Charleston to confer v/ith the South Carolina authori-ties in regard to defense. The fourth Provincial Congress met at Halifax, April 4, 1776. Here Nash rendered his most important legislative ser-vice. Reaching there on the 8th, he was at once placed on the committee to take into consideration the usurpations and vio-lences attempted and committed by the King and Parliament of Britain against America, and the further measures to be taken for frustrating the same and for the better defense of the prov-ince. To this committee, composed of Harnett, Allen Jones, Burke, Thomas Jones, Kinchen, and Person, in addition to Nash, belongs the honor of the 12th of April resolution, which is the brightest jewel in North Carolina's Revolutionary crown, and which entitles her, justly and without fear of contradiction, to claim priority in the movement for independence. Nash was also on the committees of secrecy, intelligence and observation, ways and means, to prepare !a temporary civil government, to 10 consider defense of the coast, to prepare a form of commission for privateers, to draw up instructions for recruiting officers, to prevent the desertion of slaves; and, finally, when it became evi-dent that the differences of opinion as to the form of govern-ment to be established were so serious that delay was necessary, on the committee to form a temporary civil government until the next Congress. In the political division which appeared at this time J^ash took the conservative side, without, however, becoming the par-tisan that many were. Because of his conservative views, he met with vigorous opposition in "New Bern, but after a heated campaign he was triumphantly re-elected as a delegate to the fifth Provincial Congress, which met November 12, 1776. Nash was on the committee to review and consider all such acts of the Assembly as were then in force in the State, and "to prepare such bills to be passed into laws as might be consistent with the genius of a free people." He was also on the steering committee, as it would be called to-day; the committee on in-quiry, the committee to form a bill of rights and Constitution, and a number of minor committees. What part he played in shaping our organic law, we unfortunately do not know, but, considering the vigorous personality of the man, it is not unrea-sonable to conclude that his voice was by no means an unimpor-tant one. In March, 1777, JSTash was elected to the House of Commons from New Bern, and when that body assembled he was chosen speaker, the first of a long line of able and distinguished men who have since held that station. He presided with dignity and ability, and thereby won new friends and admirers, and the whole session was marked by complete harmony and absence of friction. The next year, also, Nash was a member of the House from Craven county, and by fhat Assembly he was elected to the Continental Congress, but declined to accept. In 1779 he was elected to the Senate from Jones County, and, as usual, was active in committee work, being a member of the steering, four other general committees, and many special ones. Later in the 11 session he succeeded Allen Jones as speaker, and was thus directly in line for the gubevnatorial office, to which he was called in 1780. Before discussing his administration, let us consider his later legislative service. As has been seen, he was in the House from Jones in 1782, 1783, 1784 and 1785. Here he was still fore-most in active committee service. He was a leader in the Gen-eral Assembly of 1784 in opposition to the recommendation of Congress that loyalists should be given full rights, and on a bill to repeal all such laws as were inconsistent with the treaty of peace he voted nay, thereby incurring the enmity of Archibald Maclaine, who wrote George Hooper that Nash and Blount, "destitute of principle and swayed only by motives of interest, headed the opposition." He voted for the cession of Tennessee in May, 1784, but, in ISTovember, like many others, voted for its repeal. On May 3, 1782, Nash was elected to Congress. He had been a candidate for election the year before, but had been defeated by Benjamin Hawkins. He commenced his service on IMovem-ber 4th and remained until January 25, 1783, While there he was on the post-office committee and was one of a special com-mittee selected to visit Rhode Island and urge the compliance of that State with a resolution of Congress imposing a duty on imports. But the matter was dropped before the committee could start, by reason of the nev/s that Virginia had declined to ratify it. During his short service Nash saw the weakness of the national government in operation, and wrote Iredell that, if the nation was in distress, the fault was in the constitution of Congress, but that, if the difficulties pointed a remedy, all was for the best. This may have explained his failure to attend the next year, in spite of his election, though the fact that, ii. a sense, he was a candidate for the governorship may have had something to do with it. Then, too, we must remember that North Carolina was notorious for its indiilerence to Congress, and, indeed, to the national government. In 1784 Nash was again chosen, but did not attend. He failed of election in the 12 / spring of 1785, but in December lie Avas elected for the fourth time, and in the following November went to jSTew York to attend the meetings. There he died, on December 2d, before he took his seat. In the meantime he had been appointed by Gov-ernor Caswell a delegate to the Annapolis convention, but was ill at the time, and so was not present. Thus ended his distinguished legislative career. Had he lived he would almost certainly have been one of the framers of the Constitution and have added one more to his already numer-ous honors. For I^orth Carolina regarded him as one of her most valuable public men. Harnett classed him with Burke and Johnston ; and Blount de])lored the loss to the State, by death, of so valuable a member. AS GOVERNOR. Having looked at Wash from two points of view, let us now consider him in the position of greatest responsibility among the many he filled, namely, that of Chief Executive of the infant commonwealth, weak and struggling against invasion from without and divisions within. On April 21 or 22, 1780, Nash was elected governor to suc-ceed Caswell, who was ineligible for re-election. He at once entered upon his duties and displayed great energy and activity in the military preparations, which, at that time, occupied most of the attention of the executive. Stores were collected, arms and ammunition gathered, and, not least in the estimation of the army, "many wagons loaded with spirits" were sent to the troops. So, when General Gates finally came south, the army was amply supplied, and almost entirely by North Carolina. Need there was of activity, for the State was sorely stricken by the fall of Charleston and the loss of the six battalions of vet-eran Continental troops, besides the one thousand militia Ihere surrendered. North Carolina was apparently open to the ad-vance of the British, but their delay gave much needed time, and when they came the State was ready for them. The dis- 13 aster at Camden, however, made it necessary for most of the work to be repeated, and in order to prepare for this Governor Nash called the General Assembly to meet at Hillsboro on Au-gust 20th, but, very few of the members being present, it was not until September 5th that a quorum was in attendance. In the meantime the governor had laid an embargo on provisions and spirits for thirty days, and such members of the Assembly as had arrived took power in their hands to protect the State. The previous General Assembly had made Caswell com-mander- in-chief of the militia and given him powers which interfered to a great extent with the constitutional powers of the Governor. At this session Governor Nash reported that his council would not meet, and did not assist him. He therefore recommended the creation of a Board of War, which should share with him the responsibility of the war when the Legisla-ture was not in session. This was accordingly done, and John Penn, Alexander Martin and Oroondates Davis were elected. Their election was received with the utmost scorn and contempt by the military men of the State, and Nash soon found that the powers granted the board were in derogation of his own, as defined by the Constitution. The board was very active, fear-less and, to an extent, effective, but its very existence marked a dangerous step in development, and Nash was. thoroughly justi-fied in his attitude towards it. Even if it were thought that two or three heads were better than one, the argument failed in this case, for frequently only one member of the board was present. Nor was the attitude of the body towards the Gov-ernor pleasant or marked by a proper respect. In considera-tion of all the facts of the case, and having become convinced that the board was not a constitutional body and was dangerous, Nash refused to fill a vacancy oh it. This led to open enmi+y with the board, but did not check his activity nor dampen his ardor for the cause ; and by the end of 1780 North Carolina had five thousand men in the field. As Nash wrote Willie Jones, "zeal and spirits rose with difficulties," and the State was more united than had been the case at any previous time. But the 14 situation was unbearable, particularly to a man of proud spirit. Nash wrote Burke that tbe executive power bad been so divided and subdivided that, like the rays of the sun, it had lost its force, and "men, not knowing whom to obey, obeyed nobody." So, when the General Assembly met in February, 1781, he at once laid the matted before it and expressed the determination to resign immediately imless a change was made. His protest was dignified and conclusive, and its close is worthy of quotation here: "I readily acknowledged the merit of the Gentlemen who com-pose the Board of War, & that I thought the establishment of such a board necessary. I also thought it necessary that extraor-dinary powers should be lodged somewhere, equal to the exi-gency of the times & agreeably to the recommendation of Con-gress, to be exercised on extraordinary occasions ; and, being not ambitious of power myself, I recommended that the extraor-dinary power should be in the Board of War, so as to make them a legal basis for the support of the Executive; & this, as ex-pressed by Congress, might have been in lieu of the Assembly sitting constantly. But, instead of giving them powers which lie dormant, except when the Assembly are in session, you give them powers comprehending and, of course, superseding those of the Executive, which was never Dormant. In short, Gentle-men, I hold at present but an empty title, neither serviceable to the people nor honorable to myself. It will therefore become an act of necessity, however disagreeable at a time like this, that I resign my office, unless you restore it to a condition as respect-able as it was when you did me the honour to confer it upon me." Immediately a committee was appointed to confer with him on the subject, and as a result the Council Extraordinary re-placed the Board of War, but was also given unconstitutional powers. By act of the Assembly, ISTash was continued as gov-ernor after April 12th, when his term expired. The Assembly met again in June. IN'ash was nominated for re-election, but pleaded ill health, and his name was withdrawn. The Assembly thanked him for his "steady, zealous, patriotic 15 and arduous services as Governor of the State at a period so truly alarming," and, after assuring him of its intention to pro-tect the executive, elected Thomas Burke. Apart from Nash's ill health and his disgust at the way he had been treated, the inroads upon his fortune had wrecked it, and it was necessary for him to begin anew. While the statement of his wife that his salary of £13,000 was scarcely sufficient to purchase her a calico dress may be regarded as an exaggeration, it was never-theless far from being an adequate support. In 1784 Nash seems to have desired re-election to the governorship, but was defeated by Caswell, who received a majority of thirty votes in the Assembly. In a most inadequate way I have shown you something of the man and his v/ork. It is a sad commentary upon the State pride of our ancestors that scarcely any material remains from which to show his thought and character. That he was no ordinary man is sufficiently attested, not only by his public career, but by the attitude of his contemporaries. The distinguished honors paid his memory in New York upon the occasion of his death points clearly to a national reputation, for, behind his body, on its way to its temporary resting place in St. Paul's churchyard, came Congress in a body, foreign representatives, both diplo-matic and consular, the Supreme Court and governor of New York, the national officei'S, civil and military; the mayor of the city, the faculty of the university, and a large concourse of citizens of every rank. Shall we of to-day do him less honor? God forbid that the prophets of our greatness should remain without honor in their own country. From the walls of this building, the home of the State which he helped to create, may his face look down upon generations to come, and give inspiration to a patriotism such as guided him through life. imSZ, °'' CONGRESS n*.
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I abandoned my little journal for more than a week! (It ain’t the first time you know.) How I wish I have the power to process information every evening after work. I just don’t. Taking public transportation in Kuala Lumpur is enough to tire me out. (Those reckless bus drivers and conductors are nuts!) Not to mention about those overly aggressive, cunning "comrades" I have to deal with for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. What’s worse, I’ve been unusually prone to making mistakes since last week. Coming home, I often pick up unfinished business where they were once left. Jaded, man!
Well, sorry about that … I just feel like venting out. Hope you don’t mind; otherwise, just ignore the sleepy and crabby Pei-Lin. What I do want to share with you though is …
I have always loved mochi. I love giving my mouth a delicious workout by chewing on mochi. (A good way to digress, too. I’m a dreamer.)
Green tea daifuku, which is a type of mochi, filled with home-made azuki bean paste (dated March 2009). Ahem, pardon me for the unappetizing shot ... It was me who bit the daifuku. Haha!
If you’ve read this or known me long enough through my words, you know my blog wasn’t named after my love for mochi.
Some say mochi is Japanese. Some say Chinese. Some say Korean. Whomever it may belong to, I, as a person who shuns ambiguity, have tucked away mochi in the “East Asian Loop” located at the back of my brain. I reckoned mochi was born in the Far East, to be fair and square to everyone. That’s also why as a third-generation Malaysian-Chinese, I named my blog after dodol, a treat from Malaysia and its neighboring countries; as well as mochi, a treat from China and its neighboring countries. They’re an edible representation of who I am:
Malaysian + Chinese + foodie + sweet tooth = Pei-Lin (Eat me!)
Anyway, one of my culinary misadventures had to do with mochi. No, no. It should be mochi bread.
When I was a college student, I once lived a laid-back and carefree life in rural America. I had all the time I wanted to “blog hop.” (Not now. Not anymore!) I hopped from one blog to another like how a happy bunny would. All of a sudden, I bumped into mochi bread. “Interesting!” I thought to myself.
I searched high and low on the Internet. Unfortunately, there
wasn’t isn’t any from-scratch recipe for the famous chewy Korean mochi bread, which was once a rage among Asian food bloggers. Only premix will save the day.
Stranded in the middle of nowhere, I tried to save myself from driveling too much before the computer screen. The daredevil in me decided to construct these chewy morsels from scratch. I googled, I read up on others’ experiments, I relied on others’ recipes, in a hope that my curiosity would be fed with delectably chewy results. However, after a few attempts:
I think I sort of failed. Though haven't tasted the real deal, the interior should look kind of hollow with some holes instead of dense like mine based on what I've seen in others. Need to try them again ...
Updates: After four attempts, I gave up on the "holy grail" in searching for the baked-from-scratch recipes for these chewy little morsels ...
That was what I recorded in my culinary journal on Flickr – I didn’t have a blog back then. My heart ached. My waistline expanded. I surrendered!
One of my many culinary fiascoes: pandan "mochi bread" (dated April 2009)
(OK, I wasn’t the only one who polished off the flops! My family friends’ grandkids helped me out with that! It was a delicious task. They even commented that my kitchen fiasco tasted awesome! Haha! Mara, Jonathan, Aaron and Megan, thank you! I miss you four little stars so much!)
That horrid episode didn’t dishearten me from admiring mochi. I heart its stickiness and chewiness. I love squishing it playfully. So soft. What an adorable creature. I love how not cloyingly sweet most mochi-ish desserts are, including the mochi cake.
Now, that IS interesting! Mochi cake!? How oxymoronic can that be?
I first came across mochi cake on my buttery fingers, a blog written by Wendy, who’s a talented 17-year-old Hong Kong baker. Her mochi cakes were inspired by Y, another wonderful baker blogging from the Down Under. After sucking up all the adjectives and verbal adjectives, I was
cajoled convinced. I immediately bookmarked the recipe! “Ah, the result of crossbreeding mochi with cake!” I told myself excitedly.
That was four months ago though – during which Pei-Lin got sidetracked … by other recipes.
Early last month, as I was
slacking catching up with others on Twitter, Su-yin’s tweet seized my attention. Another lovely fellow Malaysian blogging from London, she was raving about how scrumptious her mochi cake turned out on one Sunday night. My, oh my! I’m sure it was wicked! That reminded me of the promise long gone. Too bad, I’d already cooked and baked whatever I needed for the week. “Alright,” I said to myself, “Next weekend has gotta be mochi cake!” (Su-yin, thank you for the reminder!)
This recipe is SO versatile. So many bloggers have tweaked the original recipe and made a version of their own. Wendy made hers green tea, black sesame and chocolate flavored. Y made hers blondie. The Food Librarian made hers with fresh cherries. Sonia made hers green tea, too! Feeling inspired, I decided to marry East and West together in mine.
Presenting to you my coconut-screwpine and rum-raisin mochi cakes!
On the left: coconut-pandan flavored; on the right: rum-raisin flavored
Locally, screwpine is better known by its Malay name “pandan.” Ask just about anyone from Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Brunei, pandan is no stranger. It is sometimes dubbed the “vanilla of Southeast Asia.” We love a touch of pandan in our food, be it sweet or savory. One of the best flavor combos has got to be coconut and pandan, hands down! Just imagine the tropical whiff of the coconut working wonders with the sweet floral fragrance of the pandan leaves. You’ve got to give coconut – with pandan a shot if you haven’t done so, especially when you’re not from this region. For those of you residing in the “West,” you should be able to get pandan leaves at large Asian grocers. The leaves come refrigerated though, which is unlike here, where we can simply snip off a few from the garden – fresh. (Pandan is commonly cultivated here. My mom used to have several large pandan plants in her small yard. Dang, the dog killed them all! So, I went and begged for a few pandan leaves from my neighbor.)
I wanted rum and raisins in my cake because the boozy combo is also one of my favorites. They’re match made in heaven, just like the coconut-and-pandan combo! However, it wasn’t all rosy along the way. Blame myself for being sloppy and lazy. I subbed butter for oil. Then, I made a grave mistake by mixing the oil together with the other liquids before folding them into the eggs-and-sugar mixture! In the end, the mixture refused to emulsify! Argh! Think of it this way: The whole process was basically like making génoise batter – except that it was gluten free. *Slap myself*
So, the coconut-pandan mochi cake from my maiden attempt turned out to be denser and shorter in height than the rum-raisin one (as pictured), which was from my second attempt. The green coconut-pandan cake bore a chewier texture, with tighter crumbs, kind of kuih-like. (Kuih, or kuih-muih in its plural form, refers to the variety of bite-sized local snacks from Malaysia and Singapore. They are usually sweet, though can be savory. Chewiness is associated with kuih.) The good news is, just like what I’d twat Faithy that same Sunday night, who also made the cake long ago, no matter how badly the recipe was screwed up, my coconut-pandan mochi cake was JUST as delectable! I felt like I was eating a fluffier kuih bakar! Haha!
Between the two flavor combos I have here, I prefer coconut and pandan to rum and raisins. That’s simply because I found that the coconut-pandan flavor remained strong even on the second and third day. My rum-raisin one was the opposite though. I could only taste the rum the same day the cake was made. So, if you plan on polishing off the whole deal in one sitting after baking, rum and raisins ain’t a bad choice!
Other than that, I can safely say that I got the texture right on my second attempt. Mochi cake is at its best on the day it was made. As you bite into the cake, you’d feel like as though you’re eating a fluffy cake. But as you slowly work it in your mouth, the cake gets springier – and yet remains fluffily cakey at the same time! Nope, you aren’t being duped! You’re eating mochi cake! It’s gluten free!
Mochi Cake (makes a 7x7-inch cake and three regular-sized cupcakes)
Coconut-Pandan mochi cupcakes topped with some chocolate chips
Coconut and pandan variant:
(A)
187 g evaporated milk/thick coconut milk
2 long pandan leaves
1/4 tsp pandan paste
* Can be found at Asian grocers, if you're residing in the "West." *
(B)
210 g glutinous rice/mochiko flour
15 g coconut milk powder
* For those of you residing in the "West," coconut milk powder can be found at Asian grocers. *
1 tsp baking powder
(C)
2 large eggs -- at room temperature
175 g caster sugar
Pinch of salt
85 g neutral-flavored oil
* As mentioned, I replaced unsalted butter with oil. I used corn oil. No olive oil, please. *
75 g fresh grated coconut
-. *
- Blend (A) together in a blender/food processor. Then, pass and press the mixture through a strainer to separate the solids from the liquid completely; discard the leaves. Now, mix the pandan milk together with the pandan paste; set aside.
- Combine (B) together and sift once, set aside.
- Cream (C) together till pale and fluffy. (I had mine creamed till the ribbon stage.) Now, fold in the oil gently to combine, and followed by the pandan milk. Fold the ingredients together gently to avoid deflating the air incorporated within.
- Gently and gradually fold the flour mixture into the wet mixture -- halfway through, fold in the grated coconut.
Rum and raisins variant:
(A)
225 g glutinous rice/mochiko flour
1 tsp baking powder
(B)
2 large eggs -- at room temperature
175 g caster sugar
85 g neutral-flavored oil
* As mentioned, I replaced unsalted butter with oil. I used corn oil. No olive oil, please. *
(C)
2 tsp imitation rum
* I used McCormick's. *
1/2 tsp vanilla extract
27 g rum
* I used light rum. I'd go for dark rum if I have it. Utilize the rum from soaking the raisins, as stated below. *
160 g evaporated milk
150~200 g raisins -- soaked in rum for 2 hours, and then drained well
Extra glutinous rice/mochiko flour -- to coat the raisins with
-. *
- Coat the rum-soaked raisins with some glutinous rice flour; set aside. This is to prevent the raisins from sinking to the bottom of the cake as it bakes later on.
- Combine (A) together and sift once, set aside. Mix (C) together and set aside.
- Cream (B) together till pale and fluffy. (I had mine creamed till the ribbon stage.) Now, fold in the oil gently to combine, and followed by the rum-evaporated milk mixture. Fold the ingredients together gently to avoid deflating the air incorporated within.
- Gently and gradually fold the flour mixture into the wet mixture -- halfway through, fold in the flour-coated raisins.
Oops! Overfilled cupcake liners; hence, the awkward-looking mochi cupcakes ... Haha!
Before I sign off, here's something
a little unrelated somewhat related. I'm sending this post to The Sunday Creative. (Dang, I missed last week's!) This week's creative prompt is "connect." Mochi cake is an edible connection between the East and West:
Mochi (East) + Cake (West) = Mochi Cake (Fusion)
It's that simple! (Yay! I made it through this week's challenge!) Hope you get to try mochi cake, if you haven't!
41 comments:
Hi Pei Lin, mochi cake sound interesting and looks yummy, ve bookmarked.
BTW, I have some awards for you, feel free to pick them up from my blog :).
They look exotic and sexy! (yes, sexy, esp. that mochi bread).
I love mochi too. When Diana were studying in Japan I told her she don't have to buy me anything from there. Just bring home lots of mochi for me ha ha.. I have yet to try out the baked mochi. Great idea in westernizing the eastern mochi :)
I'm so glad you had so much fun making (and eating) them! :) Such a great cake, isn't it? The coconut pandan version is something I'm gonna have to try next time!
I know what you mean about mochi bread, I've made it once from a premix, but can't find it here in London. Have been searching high and low for a recipe, but with no luck. I actually bought a pack of premix, then decided not to bring it back to London because I was worried that they might errr.. think it was drugs. Lol!
Interesting mochi cake, sounds good and definitely looks good! I am sure it taste very good too :) I was given a pack of Korean mochi bread premix, I have yet to try it though.
Pei Lin, can you email me the recipe of the 'failed' mochi bread? I have also been trying to make this from scratch. Almost all the recipes on the net called for a Premix. I tried to make it from scratch a couple of times but mine did not puff up like the way yours does. The real thing sold at Sun Moulin bakery is not totally hollow inside - but not quite dense as the case in your photos. Also I had bookmarked Hong Kong Wendy's post some time ago. Great minds think alike!
Now I know what I want you to bring. hahahaha When you are here you need to try the Sun Moulin's or Provence's. I love those.
I love pandan and coconut combo too
:)
My fav, actually.
such a creative idea and they looks so yummy will try it out soon =D
my goodness! i thought this post would never end! it was a long one haha.. I had to take breaks in between to suck in all the information!! anywhow! good to see someone blogging about east meets west desserts.. keep it up, im following!
Gorgeous looking cakes! Looking at your mochi cakes make me feel like eating them again...they taste yummy don't they? I haven't tried other combos yet..your rum & raisins sounds heavenly!
hmm i have never tried this before, sounds delish.!
Do I have a chance to taste your Mochi Cake soon? It's something special for me as I never tried them before. I like to eat mochi a lot :)
good creation, I need to think another flavour if next time i make this again.
Really nice cake and mochi! I have been wanting to try making mochi / mochi bread for the longest time. :p Looking at your cute mochi bread is making my hands itchy! How about making us some when we see you in Aug? Heehee!
Haha .. another long post but who is complaining. I love your mathematical formula to "eating" - its a classic! Love the recipes and coconut pandan and rum raisin sounds so, so good!
Hi Pei-Lin,
Your mochi products all looked pretty good. Nevermind if the mochi bread wasn't a success. If it tastes good, who cares?
pandan coconut and rum raisins are 2 of my favorite combos too. and i agree that the rum flavour will diminish after a while since the rum will evaporate. Looks like I should give this mochi cake a try. I love mochi too, and would'nt mind marrying mochi and cake together.
cheers
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Jess: Yea, mochi cake does sound intriguing and yummy! Lemme know how yours turn out, K? Btw, thank you so much for the awards! Feel honored! *Grinning* But all I'm thinking of now hor is ... SLEEP! Man, it's gonna be a sweet one with such encouraging words from you! See you soon!
@Angie: *LOL* Hell, yea ... I heard ya! All food is sexy! Haha!
@Gert: What!!?? Diana also studied in Japan!? So, she can speak Japanese too I bet. Yes, you're so right on that! When I was in a transit at Narita Airport, I saw REALLY exotic mochi: ice-cream mochi, pastry cream-filled mochi. Those really caught my attention. But then, I failed to buy some to try as I only had 2 hours to shop there. I ended buying something else! Haha! You know, Japanese goods are SO fancy! I was having hard time trying to decide on which stuff to tag home. *LOL*
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Su-yin: Gal! Thank you so much for reminding me of the bookmarked recipe!! The promise long forgotten ... Haha! Yea, try that coconut-pandan one. It's wicked! Haha! Honestly, I haven't really tried looking for mochi bread premix in KL. You have it in Penang? Been distracted by so many other bakes/dishes ... Haha! Well, maybe I'll start my mochi bread hunt when the mood strikes. Wish me luck! I wonder if those bakery supply stores carry them ... Well, I won't be surprised if London doesn't have the premix. Even New Yorkers and Sydneysiders are having hard time looking for the premix. Agreed! It really does look like dadah! Haha!
@HHB: The cake has an interesting texture, seriously. Argh! How I wish I have a bag of the premix, too so that my curiosity can be fed immediately. ;)
@Shirley: Already emailed you the recipes. They're actually linked here. Yes, almost all call for premix. I think I ought to try the mochi bread in SG soon. Been getting sidetracked by so many other great bakes/dishes too!? Haha! Great minds think and work alike! =P
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Edith: Hahaha! Not just try the mochi bread ar ... But also tapau them home ... Man, hope my baggage won't be overloaded in the end ... *LOL*
@Wendy: Erm ... I think most of us Malaysians, Singaporeans, Bruneians, Indonesians, Thai love the coconut-pandan combo ... We should be proud of our cultural heritage geh ... =D
@jess: Hey, there! Well, we gotta thank the recipe developer-cum-mochi cake creator I guess ... I only followed suit ... except for a few tweaks here and there. *LOL* Lemme know how yours turn out! Maybe you can even come up with more exotic flavors! Keep the creativity flowing! =D
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Made2Order: ROTFL! Yea, I bet all of you guys have noticed that I'm indeed long-winded. I admit that, too. Thanks so much for taking time to read my ramblings, haha! I like writing when time's given. But I don't talk like how I'd write, I only talk when I feel there's chemistry. Otherwise, I'll be as quiet as a dead log. Haha! Well, I don't get to blog about East-meets-West dessert unless I've made one, like these mochi cakes. Certainly, I hope there's more to come though. Thank you once again for being supportive! I heard ya!
@faithy: Yea, I know you're a huge rum-and-raisins fan! The cakes were indeed worth the time and efforts spent! Very interesting! ;)
@babe_kl: Haha! I wish you could have tried some ... Maybe we should organize a Malaysian food bloggers' gathering ... Sounds good hor? Wait, now let my brain take some break first. Will get back to you with some ideas for the Merdeka Open House. Promised! Gonna participate in that this year too! Why I saw semua orang mau Satu Malaysia concept geh? Actually, Wendy's one-pot meal idea sounds pretty good, for a lazy cook like me! =P
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Grace: Good! We have gobs of mochi lovers here. Haha! Not feasible ... The cake goes stale fast, which is a problem! =S
@Sonia: Thank you! I can foresee ... After your wicked Nasi Lemak Pizza, you're gonna make Nasi Lemak Mochi Cake! =P
@Bee Bee: No, no! Not feasible. Since you're itching to make mochi/mochi bread, maybe you should make those instead leh ... Haha!
Thank you for the encouraging words, y'all! Happy weekend! (I still gotta slog hard this Sunday for no pay ... *Sob*)
@Jo: Haha! Just being playful with my words ... Sometimes, I'm surprised to find that I can actually be quite naughty, nonsensical and creative too. =P
@ZY: Thank you for being supportive! Haha! "Products" makes my bakes sound like SKUs. Must be dealing with too many SKUs lately ... *LOL* Well, as long as no food is wasted, I'm happy. Yea, I dislike the fact that liquors evaporate after baking, which leads to the diminishment of the boozy flavor ... I know it's science. Can't do much. Glad that you like the combos and mochi! Mochi is one of my fave Asian snacks/desserts! Lemme know how yours turn out, yea? =)
It looks yummy Pei-Lin.. must make this soon!!
mmm mochi and htat filling looks very very good! YUM :))))
Pei Lin...Mochi cake sounds great. You are such a talented young lass. Love your write out too :)Will want to try it out. East meet west :)
what can i say, my dear...u truly are the queen of mochis! i love the combination of flavors reflecting unique mix of cultures. u are just so creative with this and well done!!
I enjoy soft and slightly chewy mochi too! What a profile of textures in your cake, sweetie.
Pandan and coconut always create a beautiful explosive flavour....my favourite. Your mochi cakes looks very delicious. Thanks very much for sharing.
east-west creations are always interesting and yummy looking, like yours. I love pandan a lot. Are you going to do fushion mooncakes this year? ;)
I was able to find some pandan paste and just discovered a huge Asian market by where my husband works, they have pandan leaves. I love coconut and pandan and your cake looks awesome! The texture is perfect!
I really enjoy your blog, my first visit here, but I'll be back!
Hello...looks like you really had fun baking them and they did turn out great!! Will come by for more recipes!
I absolutely love both mochi and pandan! This looks fantastic!!
since i love mochi as well, i am so tempted to make this one
Hi Pei Lin
stumbled upon your blog and saw this mochi cake recipe. may i know what is the texture of the cake like? also, what is the imitation rum for? if i don't have that, can i use rum? also, how much rum should i use to soak the raisins? thks
regards
octopusmum
Hi, I have been searching high and low for the recipe for azure bean paste. I saw the word "homemade azuki bean paste" from your post but you didn't have post dated Mar 2009. Do you mind tell me how to do it or where can I find the recipe?
Good evening
Can I link to this post please?
Hi, Anonymous!
I hope this is a serious comment, not a spam comment I sometimes do get. =)
Sure, be my guest! It'd be great if you can let me know of why the link in detail. But, please don't commit plagiarism. It's not a nice thing to do, ya know.
Thanks for visiting! Have a good evening to you, too.
Great post, I am almost 100% in agreement with you
Il semble que vous soyez un expert dans ce domaine, vos remarques sont tres interessantes, merci.
- Daniel
Hi! I'm sorry but I MUST have your pandan mochi bread failure recipe!! It looks delicious and I really want to try it! Can I have a copy of it? |
Contentment (11/08/09)
Contentment, is something we all long for, but not something we find easily.
Contentment is hard to find because we are a restless people; we live in a culture that purposefully creates discontent.
What is contentment?
Contentment is a condition in which our soul is at rest regardless of our circumstances. You do not base your happiness on the situation around you.
A soul at rest implies that your soul isn’t striving for something it doesn’t have. Contentment is a type of peace that exists through both pleasant and difficult situations.
The Hebrew word for “rest”, here in Psalm 62:1, means “silence” or “stillness” - not verbal silence, as some translations suggest; for v. 8 commends pouring out one’s heart in prayer as an act of trust. It rather speaks of a quietness of soul, an inner stillness that comes with yielding all fears and anxieties and insecurities to God in an act of trust - “absolute composure”.
The spirit of undismayed calm such as is manifested here – an absolute undisturbed peace, in which confidence in God is so completely unshaken, and in which assurance - is so strong that there is not even one single petition voiced throughout the Psalm.
What do we learn about contentment?
1. We will find contentment by looking to God instead of our circumstances. (vv. 1–4)
David finds that his circumstances are not to be trusted to provide contentment. David looks instead to the God who made him.
In the NT, Paul says, “We don’t look around at what we see right now, the troubles all around us. But we look forward to the joys in heaven. The troubles will soon be over but the joys that come will last forever.”
(2 Cor. 4:18)
Paul says, I don’t look around, I look up. I don’t spend my time comparing myself to other people. I keep my eyes on what is to happen.
Augustine lived in the 5th cent. after Jesus lived. He lived a promiscuous life, chasing sexual pleasures and all that an affluent life had to offer. He fathered a child outside of marriage, and he even joined a cult. But he found himself empty and with a restless, empty soul. So he started attending a church led by a famous pastor named Ambrose.
Augustine attended as a seeker, primarily because he was fascinated by what Ambrose had to say. But eventually Augustine found faith in Jesus Christ himself. He would later write in his journal, “Our hearts are restless until they find rest in you, O Lord.”
Only in God will our souls find true rest.
2. We will find contentment by choosing to trust in God. (vv. 5–10)
Though David says he finds rest only in God in verse 1, he commands himself to find rest in God in verse 5.
In v. 8, the Hebrew word for “trust” means to rely on God, as a baby relies on its mother.
Trusting God means establishing a relationship with him through Jesus Christ. David notes that, whether we’re rich or poor, we’re all essentially the same—each of our lives ultimately amounts to nothing. We shouldn’t put stock in our circumstances or wealth, because then we’re not trusting God.
Instead of just depending on my own effort to make it through circumstances and my own energy, I must learn to draw on Christ’s power. Paul says in Philippians 4:13 … “I can do everything through Him who gives me strength.”
3. We will find contentment by understanding God’s character. (vv. 11–12)
David focuses on God’s strength, his unlimited power. David also calls attention to God’s love, his loyal faithfulness to his promises.
The two-fold description of the character of God provided offers the necessary basis of trust that is missing in human status and corrupt power. God can be trusted because he is at one and the same time “strong” and “loving”.
God is caring, capable and committed. It takes an understanding of both God’s power and his love to get a picture of what he’s like—otherwise God becomes either a tyrant or Santa Claus.
The more you understand God, the more content you will be.
The real reason that people are unhappy, unsatisfied, and unfulfilled is because Jesus Christ is not the center of their lives. They are looking for fulfillment in all the wrong places. They run from this to that… looking for something that is going to satisfy them. From relationship to relationship, from job to job, from hobby to hobby, fads, etc. - looking for the key. But God has laid it out very clearly. You were made with a God shaped vacuum in your life and nothing will fill that void except God.
Conclusion
The contented life doesn’t come from having just the right circumstances - contentment comes from looking to God as our one source of serenity.
God wants you to have a happy, fulfilling, satisfying life. But the way you have that satisfaction in life is by learning contentment. If you have to have a perfect situation and a perfect relationship to be happy you’re never going to be happy. You have to learn to be happy in spite of your problems. That is contentment. How? You draw on Christ’s power. You stop depending on your own power to make it. You get Christ’s hope to cope. When you give up on your own power God can fill you, and infuse you with new power that will help you “do all things”.
Uncertainty (11/1/09)
Last Sunday, as we continued in our series entitled “Managing Our Emotions”, I dealt with Uncertainty - or what do we do when we’re unsure of our next move?
The famous preacher and founder of the Methodist church, John Wesley, once said, “When I was young I was sure of everything. But after a few years, having been mistaken a thousand times, I was not half as sure of most things as I was before. And at present, I am hardly sure of anything except what God has revealed to me”..
Just like Wesley said in the above quote - “… I am hardly sure of anything except what God has revealed to me …”, the key we find in Psalm 19 is that God speaks to us - through His creation, through His Word, and through His conviction by means of the ministry of the Holy Spirit to our hearts and minds. God is in the business of revealing His will to us!
And even after taking into account these means of God’s will being revealed to us, a good and safe rule of thumb is - when uncertain, pursue the path that’s most honoring to God. I’m convinced that for most people who are sincerely following God, making choices between what’s good and what’s bad is not where they have the most difficulty. Those who are committed in and to their relationship with Christ often find it difficult in choosing between “what’s good” and “what’s better”; between “what’s better” and “what’s best”. You see, I firmly believe that some paths honor God more than others. The “higher way” may not always be the easiest, clearest or most popular path to follow.
All of us deal with uncertainty at times. Psalm 19 invites us to listen for God’s voice - particularly look for His direction in the Scriptures, ask for His convicting work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. And then, choose the path that most honors Him.
I’ve found that God’s plan for our lives is not always a straight line - rather, it is a series of twists and turns. But nonetheless, we can be confident that He is loving enough to want us to succeed and powerful enough to help us get back on the right track if - uhr, I mean, WHEN we make a wrong decision.
You’ve got two choices - pray or faint!
Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up (Luke 18:1).
I think it is significant that this word on prayer from the lips of Jesus comes right on the heels of Luke’s account of his second coming, the parallel passage to the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Matthew. The Lord moves immediately from his word concerning his coming to this word concerning prayer, indicating the direct correlation between watchfulness and prayer.
Jesus uses three deliberate contrasts: first, a contrast of principles; then a contrast of persons; and, finally, a contrast of practices.
Jesus boldly confronts us with an inescapable choice of what life-guiding principle we will follow: We must either pray or faint, one or the other. Either we learn to cry out to an unseen Father, who is ever present with us, or else we must lose heart, to faint.
Then, Jesus contrasts the widow and the judge.
Nothing she could do would move this man to intercede in her case. Nevertheless, Jesus said, she found a way. She proceeded to make life utterly miserable for him; giving him no rest day and night. She was continually hounding, harassing, plaguing him until finally the judge was forced to act. He granted her request and she got what she needed! I think the whole point of the story is right here – Jesus is simply indicating that this widow found the secret of handling reluctant judges! She discovered, in other words, the key to power. She found the one principle on which even a reluctant judge would act, despite his formidable defenses.
But remember, this is a parable. And a parable is “an extended metaphor”. And Jesus is using the convention of “contrast” throughout the parable. So, Jesus is saying, , when no openings appear in the wall of pressure,.
Jesus ends his story with a sudden word that comes as a third contrast, the contrast of practice.. God is utterly faithful. It is man who raises the doubts., trusting instead of trying. Rejoicing, accepting, appropriating, receiving — that is prayer.
Does God ALWAYS Answer Prayer?
I’m getting ready to preach a series on the Lord’s Prayer, so last Sunday, I preached my favorite “counseling outline” regarding the mystery of ”unanswered” prayer. It’s a frequent occurrence. The conversation goes something like this: “Pastor, didn’t Jesus say, ‘Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be open?’ Didn’t he say that?”.
The memorable little outline that I use from time to time in my counseling sessions with individuals is not original with me. And admittedly at first the outline sounds trite. But let me develop it before you dismiss its value. descended upon Jesus.
The three disciples stood back in awe. They beheld the splendor of God just a few feet away. And they were.”
Are you and I capable of making wrong requests to God? SURE! And our God loves us too much to say ‘yes’ to wrong requests. If the request is wrong, God will answer the prayer, but his answer will be “No.” And you wouldn’t want God to do anything less. Even Garth Brooks is smart enough to “one of God’s greatest gifts is Unanswered Prayer”! 15 miles from home and you slow for a toll booth. And the kids say, “Are we there yet?” And you say, “Not yet.” And they groan and complain, “Oh, no. Come on, Dad, hurry it up!” You think, It’s going to be a long trip.
And let it be known that God is no more intimidated by our childish fixation on instant gratification than our wise parents were. He simply chooses from time to time to shake his head at our immaturity and say, “Kick and scream all you want, but not yet.” Like Bill Hybels says, “it’s essential for you to understand that God’s delays are not necessarily God’s denials.” You need to understand that often God isn’t saying no, he is merely saying, “Not quite yet. Trust me. I know what I’m doing. I have my reasons. My ways are higher than your ways (Isaiah 55:9).”
Again, I can’t tell you how many times I thought my prayers were going unanswered only to find out later that God was saying, “Not yet,” so that he could carefully orchestrate a greater miracle than I had the faith to pray for in the beginning.
If you are wrong, God will say, several people on the mystery and the agony of unanswered prayer. Only a handful have come to me and said honestly, “Greg, might it be me who is the obstacle to the miracle that I’m praying for?”
It’s almost always, “You explain to me why God isn’t moving my mountain.” It’s just human nature. I’m not trying to lay a trip on you.. Pretty well says it, doesn’t it? Jesus warns us in the Sermon on the Mount that if there is relational discord, if there are private wars going on between people, if there are broken friendships, it cuts us off from close fellowship with God. He continues in that passage by saying, “Drop everything and attempt to reconcile those relationships. Then go back to the altar and worship and pray (Mt. 5:23f).” If those passages aren’t sobering enough, listen to this passage from 1 Peter 3: “Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. Grant them honor so that your prayers won’t be hindered.”
If the truth were known, often the only obstacle standing in the way of you receiving your desperately needed miracle is us. It’s you. It’s me. The requests aren’t always wrong. Most of them are probably right. The timing isn’t necessarily the biggest problem. I think God is rather easy-going about some timing matters. He has a heart inclined to meet our requests. But when we’re wrong, God says, “Come on, grow. Put that sin away. It’s the only thing standing in the way. Change your attitude on this or that. Stop that practice. End that pattern. Get off that merry-go-round. Reconcile that relationship. Soften up in your spirit. Repent; receive forgiveness. Come on, grow. It’s the only thing standing in the way!” And God says, “When you grow, I’ll open up the floodgates of power and blessing and pour myself out to you, but you’ve got to grow.” We’re not talking “absolute perfection” here - I’m talking about doing and being what we know we need to do and be - both in our relationship with God and our relationships with others. have got to grow.”
When the request, the timing is right - when YOU are right, God will say, “Let’s go!” I doubt any of us know how badly God wants to change that impossible circumstance in your life. You’ll be amazed at how often God will say, “Let’s go,” because you matter to him and it’s in his heart to meet your needs and grant your requests. It’s really more a matter of you letting him, you freeing him to do it.
So, the answer to the question in the title of this post, “Does God ALWAYS Answer Prayer?” is “YES”! It’s just that sometimes His answer is “No”, if the request is wrong; sometimes His answer is “Slow down - not yet”, if the timing isn’t right; sometimes He answers “Grow” if YOU and I are not quite in the place we should be in our relationship with Him and with others.
A thought to begin the New Year - “Nobody succeeds big without first succeeding small”
I was reminded again this week, as I was reading through some articles for personal enjoyment and enrichment, that “nobody succeeds big without first succeeding small”. I don’t know who said it first, but I think that it is definitely one of Jesus’ teaching points in His parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
It’s a new year full of new hopes and new goals, new plans to achieve them, and even new fears of the new ways we might fail.
One of my “resolutions”, if you will, for the New Year is to “re-kindle” my journaling. I love to journal – write down my reflections; but if I don’t write the beginnings of a “masterpiece” at least every other entry, I don’t feel like I’ve accomplished much. I also want to blog more – but again, unless I write something that is worthy of Discipleship Journal, Moody Monthly, Christianity Today … you get the picture.
Well, also this week, I’ve been introduced to, and joined up with the massive online community of Facebook. And the articles that I have read and the adventure upon which I’ve embarked, is working nicely together to assist me in fulfilling my goal and resolutions.
You see, just a few sentences a day – that’s all it takes. The British comedy team Flanders and Swan sing a wonderful song about a sloth who imagines all he could be if he were a different creature. He could “win a war then write a book about it” or “compose an oratorio that was sublime.” His problem, he laments, is “I just don’t have the time.” One doesn’t have to be a sloth to feel the press, and the tyranny of the urgent. It seems like we’re working longer hours and taking fewer vacations. What’s more, each year our workload increases, and the time for personal reflection and creative endeavors outside the workplace diminishes.
But if you’ll just start out small. I’ve been able to connect with old friends these past few days that I haven’t seen, nor talked to in years. And as a result, as the memories start flooding back, reflective thoughts about the present also spring to life. I don’t know if it’s something we’ll do every day. But sometimes, those notes and thoughts throughout the day remind us of the community online that is seeking to serve God in all of life—whether at home, at church, at work, in email, in meetings, on blogs, or even on Facebook.
Are You Ready For Christmas?. I was privileged to work alongside hundreds of pastors and believers in Kansas City when Dr. Graham and his ministry team was there a short time ago.
But what few.
That’s why we talk about this strange thing called Advent starting four weeks prior to Christmas. Advent is all about preparation. Sometimes we forget that, before God sent his Son into the world, he saw to it that the way was prepared. Jesus arrived on the scene only after 400 years of silence from God—preparation. He arrived only after numerous people were visited by an angel named Gabriel—preparation. God even saw fit to prepare the way for his Son by sending a man named John to call people to repentance. God is into preparation.
What about you … are you prepared for Christmas? I don’t mean do you have your tree up, or have you done your shopping - I haven’t even started mine (I mean, come on, it’s not the 24th yet!). But are you really prepared? Are you prepared for the arrival of God’s Son? In the midst of all your other Christmas preparations this year, take some time to prepare your heart to receive the wonderful gift of God’s presence and blessing in your life.
What Would Jesus Say About This Election?
Yesterday, I gave us some guidelines as we go to the polls tomorrow. I realize that some of you may have already voted; but if you haven’t, remember … you have both the right and the responsibility to cast your vote and there are several reasons to vote this time. And, no, the economy is not the main issue - righteousness is the always the main issue with Christian voters!
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people (Prov. 14:34).
When the righteous thrive, the people rejoice; when the wicked rule, the people groan (Prov. 29:2).
The one key ingredient we must all search for in a leader is integrity - that is a sign of righteousness. When it comes to picking a president, I think Gandhi had it right: “the obligation of accepting a position of power is to be, above all else, a good human being.” Virtue is a requirement for leadership. Character matters. Decisions to be made when in the “heat of the moment” flow out of character - not competence.
So when you vote tomorrow, vote for righteousness, morals, family and principals - not just the economy.
We’re back on!
Hey, Everybody - our website is back in operation and blogging capabilities are restored! Keep an eye out here, every couple of days or so for a little something from me.
Don’t forget to set your clocks back this weekend - yes, that’s right … Daylight Savings Time ends this Sunday morning. I don’t know about you, but I’m going to enjoy the extra hour of rest. |
Even when I’m on a well deserved vacation this God forsaken industry refuses to allow me to get some rest. Here I was trying to relax on the beach on a beautiful sunny day in the Bahamas, quietly sipping some exotic looking drink I can’t remember the name of, when my phone starts going crazy. Facebook, SMS, Email, Whatsapp – fucking everything started giving me notifications while at the same time calls were being diverted from the office as well. Similar to a crazy war veteran, I started getting flashbacks from 2008 when the 1D Mark III debacle was still upon us and started reciting prayers in my mind hoping to God this was not related to issues with the 1DX or 5D Mark III.
Turns out all the fuss was about the piece of shit Nikon D800 and D4 winning the EISA 2012-2013 camera of the year awards. If you ever had any doubt about all these awards and reviews in this industry being nothing more than a big fucking joke, then I’m hoping that this will remove all doubt. Just check this out:
The EISA judges said: .”
This is just pure hogwash. High video quality? BAHAHAHAHA right, with all the softness, moire and aliasing? Looks like the EISA judges aren’t aware of Philip Bloom’s review:
And highest image quality? With the shitty JPEG engine in both the D4 and D800?? Please, don’t make me laugh. Even the 5D Mark III JPEG images look better than the D4 images:
So, what can be taken away from this test? Well, the 5DIII kicks the daylights out of the D4, no doubt about it. The kickers that make the 5DIII even more superior: it has 6Mp more resolution than the D4 and only costs half as much. Talk about getting bang for your buck!
After comparing the sets of images in Lightroom and comparing the two cameras, there wasn’t exactly a clear winner. The Nikon D4 seemed to have cleaner highlights, while the Canon 1Dx appeared to have better contrast and possibly cleaner shadows. In the end, if we have to award a point here and pick a winner, it’s the Nikon D4 – by a hair. Still, the Canon 1Dx still has slightly more pleasing colour and overall image tone.
Not to mention the awful as fuck green screen on both the D4 and D800 that makes everyone, including Ken Rockwell, want to shoot with Canon instead:
Matt is not alone in noticing this issue with the Nikon D4, as a simple internet search will instantly reveal many others complaining of the same green screen issue. Matt has actually called Nikon about the issue and feels that Nikon may have been a bit coy in their response when they claimed that this was the first they have heard of it, and boldly claimed that the D4 has a more actuate screen than its predecessors. Maybe Nikon doesn’t have the internet??
And super-fast autofocus on the D4? Well, certainly these guys seem to disagree with those fucking EISA idiots:
The previous tests were close to call. This wasn’t. The Canon 1Dx ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED the Nikon D4 in the AF speed test. It was almost three times faster than the Nikon. Where the D4 was yielding an average of just under one image per second, the 1Dx was handily snapping three. Even more telling was the hesitation that the Nikon D4 seemed to display, at times not knowing if it should continue to focus forward, or head back. In contrast, the Canon 1Dx just ripped it to shreds, launching it’s AF like a shotgun, sure and confident, every time.
Matt, who has over a decade of experience with Nikon cameras & lenses was absolutely blown away by the Canon performance here. He echoed himself over and over again for hours afterward, saying “I can’t believe how fast that Canon can drive those lenses…” A clear winner in the Canon 1Dx
No wonder these guys are considering getting the 1DX instead of the D4:
And high resolution? The 1DX wins here with 18MP – 2 MP more than the D4. High frame rates? Again 1DX wins with 14fps compared to 10fps on the D4.
So you tell me: Apart from some obviously huge Nikon cocks, what the bloody fuck are those EISA judges smoking? The 1DX should have been the winner here.
And then there’s the D800. Oh God, the D800. I’ve spent a number of posts discussing this stinking heap of crap in the past already. First we had those fucking idiots at DxOLabs blatantly misleading everyone with their claims. Now it looks like these morons from EISA also want to join in and continue to mislead the entire fucking industry with the D800, strangely while the press stands by and watches it happen. This is what the fuckwads at EISA would have you believe:
The EISA judges.”
No compromises have been made with noise levels at high ISO settings? I beg to differ.??
Don’t forget what Ken Rockwell said:.
Obviously those fuckwads at the EISA don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. Because the movie mode of the D800 is crap as well, with all the noise, aliasing and moire. This can be seen in Philip Bloom’s review above, but here’s another:
But the shitty green screen LCD, the noisy-ass images and the horribly aliased and moired video are the least of your concerns if the universe hates you so much that today you somehow find yourself owning a D800. A bigger concern for you should be the malfunctioning autofocus system on the D800, that as of right now, is shaping up to become the equivalent of the 1D Mark III debacle for Nikon.
So here you have a camera with a 36MP sensor, that’s so fucking overhyped with regards to the resolution that it supposedly produces (which in reality isn’t that much more compared tot he 5D Mark III), but apparently you can’t actually focus accurately to take advantage of the resolution on the sensor. I have to say, this reminds me of the 5D Mark II which had a similar problem. Fortunately Canon Inc. got their act together with the 5D Mark III, but all of you Nikon morons are now fucked with the D800. Similar to the green screen LCD, Nikon apparently refuses to really acknowledge the autofocus problem on the D800. Nikon whore Thom Hogan already had the following to say about?
Here’s more from Thom Hogan:′s?
Nikon morons are literally filling up the Internet with their complaints regarding the autofocus issues on the piece of shit D800. Here’s a screenshot taken on Nikon Rumors:
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Many loyal customers are now switching to 5d mark III or 1DX due to superior AF system and better low light capabilities.”
BAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those Nikon morons really need stupid fucks like DxOLabs and EISA to make them feel better about spending their money on the worthless crap that is the D800.
That’s just fucking hilarious. Here’s what Lloyd Chambers has to say:
But after testing today with my D800 and D800E both just back from Nikon, my conclusion remains the same as what I initially showed in my review of the Nikon D800: the D800 /D800E has poor autofocus precision, and that’s with the center focusing sensor, which is the best one (one example). In short, the asymmetry issue is a footnote issue compared to the fundamental problem of poor precision in general.
—
In my testing today under the same conditions, the Canon 5D Mark III + 85mm f/1.2L II achieved both high precision and high accuracy, similar to what I found with the Canon 1D X autofocus. If anything, an ƒ/1.2 lens is more of a challenge than an ƒ/1.4. lens.
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lloyd, man, just get a 5D Mark III or a 1DX and throw that piece of shit D800 in the river.
And similarly, you may want to check out this website with a discussion of the D800 issues. Here’s the end result after some failed attempts at getting it fixed:
My choice(s)? Getting rid of a defective product, not bothering to check the My Nikon website each day for reasonable answers that never come, skipping the robotic conversations full of empathy but no meaningful information, not risking an additional failed attempt by Nikon’s Service Center to fix my D800, not wasting my time taking photos of test charts, and using the camera I already have. The good news? My doctor also tells me that, with time, the phenomenon of seeing Siemens Stars everywhere will eventually subside.
And if Nikon will reimburse me $73 for the scenic, but fruitless trip my D800 took to Melville, I suspect I will feel even better.And if Nikon will reimburse me $73 for the scenic, but fruitless trip my D800 took to Melville, I suspect I will feel even better.
So once again, my D7000 is glad the D800 has left our home. And this time… so am I.
Here are some quotes from the comments:
Nikon’s stupidity and arrogance are beyond belief!…or are they? As much as I and many respect this site, Thom Hogan, the more sane posters at dpreview, etc., many D800 owners,such as those Thom met in Alaska, have no idea they have a defective camera and a manufacturer whom doesn’t give a damn.
Galbraith is offline, Nikon Reviews is apparently a shill, Kelby is all self-promotion now—who is going to speak up for poorly treated Nikon customers?
It unfortunately seems that there are many cameras Nikon cannot fix with recalibration. If recal was the solution, they would have done it a long time ago. It is a stopgap measure which can improve some cameras, but there must be a major manufacturing/structural error which is so expensive for Nikon to fix or replace, they have decided not to do it. That is why there has been no public statement.
So, if you have a camera they cannot “fix” with recal, Nikon has abandoned you. What can we do about it?
No class action suit unless someone is injured (your response when I suggested this previously)? I’m not an expert or a lawyer.
Nikon needs to pay for this, in more ways than one. What can we do?
Those readers who have suggested we need a kinder, gentler response to those nice Nikon people need not apply.
—-
After hearing of the mess Nikon has made of this problem and comparing it to my experience with my first Nikon, the D5000, I am seriously considering selling all of my Nikon equipment and moving to Canon.
—-
I finally got my D800 back from Melville, exactly a month after sending it in due to extremely inconsistent af. I of course had to cover the shipping and insurance costs. I tested it once again and found that it was in much worse condition than before sending it in. Before I sent it in the center point was slightly off and the edges were a complete mess. After receiving it back the edges are slightly better but the rest of it is absolutely horrendous, including the center! The af is so bad that I can even see through the viewfinder that it is not grabbing focus and it goes without saying that the resulting images are completely fuzzed. I am using charts and multiple lenses to test, i.e 24 1.4, 35 1.4, 24-70 2.8 and so forth. I am comparing all my results to lv which is perfect.
Being a full time photographer with multiple Nikon bodies and lenses including the D4, I am somewhat astonished and appalled by the conversations I have had with Nikon and with the treatment I am receiving.
I wish I had returned my body when I had the chance but wrongly trusted Nikon repair to do the right thing. It’s back in a box heading to Melville yet again and my fingers are crossed that I do not get stuck with a $3000 lemon.
—
My D800 is back from the second repair attempt. The left focus issue is not resolved. Maybe I can return it back to Amazon after 5 months of use … unbelievable …
—
After reading your story and several others in a number of forums I am convinced that I made the right decision when I returned my D800 to the vendor. As much as I like the D800 I cannot bring myself to spend $3k on something with a known defect that Nikon can’t seem to repair.
—
My D800 came back from Melville today UNREPAIRED. El Segundo had it for 19 days and couldn’t fix it. Melville received it Tuesday, overnighted it to me last night and it is still not focusing on the left. This issue was escalated to Nikon’s Sr. Management (I spoke to them on the phone yesterday) and they still could not get it right.
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those of you who ended up buying this piece of garbage can try to get sharp images by reading this post of mine.
What a nightmare for Nikon and all those Nikon morons who bought into the D800 hype. I warned all of you from the very beginning that the D800 was a piece of shit. I warned you, you poor pathetic fools, I warned you. But ya just wouldn’t listen. Some people have emailed me and called me a prophet or psychic, but with my 30 years of experience in this industry, “predicting” this stuff is a piece of cake. I’m not called the Canon Camera Guru for nothing – I fucking earned that title!
And honestly, when Nikon was caught using footage from the 5D Mark II to promote the D800, you had to realize the video quality from the D800 was probably nowhere near good enough to sell the camera. Certainly, as we’ve seen, it sucks compared to the 5D Mark III.
So what do those fuckwads from EISA have to say about this??? Does this camera really deserve a camera of the year award? Honestly? As far as I’m concerned, Nikon can go ahead an rebrand the D800 to become the Nikon 1D Mark III. It fucking deserves that title!
Everywhere you look right now, people are impressed with the 1DX and 5D Mark III, especially with regards to the autofocus system. Both of these cameras are using the new 61-point AF system with 41 cross-type points that just kicks incredible amounts of ass in terms of speed and accuracy.
But there’s something seriously wrong in Europe. Nikon appears to have some strong influence on key organizations and publications in Europe. DxOLabs is one, but EISA clearly is also biased towards Nikon. I’ve already sent an email to Mitarai to have this situation thoroughly investigated.
CLEARLY what you can get out of all of the above, is that the Canon 1DX and Canon 5D Mark III are really the best DSLR cameras available today. Everyone who is honest and isn’t biased or influenced by Nikon says this. You simply cannot come to a different conclusion GOD DAMMIT!!!!1
Now all of you stop bothering me and let me enjoy the rest of my vacation.
Hi Fake Chuck. That penis enlargement regime that you’ve been doing, it doesn’t work?
Not as good as I hoped for.
Ha ha ha! Yeah Chuck, you’re right and everyone else in the industry is a moron! Suck it up princess, everyone knows the Nikons are superior. And the D600 is coming to give Canon another ass whooping too.
Oh the Nikons are superior alright. Just ask all those people complaining about the D800 autofocus issues which Nikon apparently can’t seem to fix.
This camera has really upset you, hasn’t it?
It’s OK Chuck, everyone makes mistakes. Just ebay your Canon gear and go get one, move on man. This self torment won’t do you any good.
I’d rather get kicked in the nuts by a donkey instead of buying a D800. I mean that.
Today is a very happy day. The courier just delivered my Nikon D600!
Along with my 70-200mm 2.8. Just taken some test shots and even at 2000 iso is very very impressive. Much much better than my old Canon 550d at 400 iso. Then I read the Canon 6D specs! Yes, today is a very happy day!
I’m so glad I switched to Nikon.
iso 6400 JPEGS aren’t terrible either.
Great post, as ever. All these big companies need someone with enough balls to expose their defective products that, once and again, launch to the market. Well done, FCW!
Thanks man, my balls are so massive they distort the very fabric of spacetime around them.
You guys are seriously sick – change your druggs and get shooting instead of
wasting your time with such a bullshit!
cheers!
lol wut?
my Minolta X700 got that EISA award long time but that camera fails me and breaks every 2 weeks. On the paper all the features seem great but on the field it’s terrible. Seems like nothing ever changed with EISA.
oh well. better luck next year.
Chuck, Nikon is starting to sound like United Airlines (lost a 10 year kid, and didn’t give a shit ) and Progressive Insurance (defended a customer’s killer in court to avoid paying a claim ). Apparently, giving a shit about your customers is passe.
Nikon is the new Canon man. And Canon is the new Nikon.
Ahahaha! Great post Chuck! You are doing a great service in exposing these things of the photographic industry. Hopefully the message is not lost in the twisted humor, though!
Someone has to do it. Might as well be me since the entire fucking industry consists of a bunch of photographic girliemen.
Have nice holidays Fake Chuck, we enjoy your great posts and your opinions !
awww… another disappointment for you chucky boy, too bad
Ask all those Nikon morons with their precious D800 about disappointment!
I have a D800, and it rocks
Sorry Chuck…
I think you have an obsession problem. Maybe you are frustrated and you need to have sex ?
I can’t deny needing sex. Lots of it to be honest with you. However, this doesn’t make the facts about the piece of shit D800 and Nikon’s fuckups less true.
The camera shop offered me a good deal on a 5D mk3 the other day. They got stock they can’t move. Told them to bash that up their arse sideways, I only want a D800… :p
with all your posts, you look much disappointed than them… anyway, just get Canon’s best camera award from bloom, rockwell and all the persons you idolized for their opinion. fact of the matter is none of it would matter and certainly wont make you happy either.
PAY ATTENTION TO THIS TAKEN FROM THE ABOVE POST:
VS
so? yes its true there are some units that are affected by the defect in AF, so what? it happens to every camera thats been released in the past. besides only Nikon USA has not been able to fix this issue, while the rest of the distributors have and they have done it correctly, no disassembly of the unit, no black tapes, etc… and there are A LOT of D800/E out there that are working perfectly out of the box. you’re just arguing for the sake of it… seriously, grow some brains princess
and let me remind you, it took Canon 2 flagship units before they could get their AF system working fine, and in the end they redesigned to to be released on the 1Dx because they couldnt fix it… those are FLAGSHIP units princess
Hey moron, didn’t you read? Those 2 D800 bodies were FUCKING FACTORY SERVICED BY NIKON!!! And still it could not focus sharp enough, at least not as good as the 5D mark III. MANY people are reporting this problem. I have links above, google it. Nikon service centers in other countries have also not been able to fix this. Google is your friend.
Hey FC, great shot catching those judges working hard, that’s a 10 right there. I use Nikon, and yes a D800, which I love. D’you know what’s Nikon evil plan buying off every judge of every test of every company?
Keep fighting the good fight my friend, you know I’ll come back everytime, a little humour comes handy nowadays…
Come on and switch already, you know you want to… be true to your heart…
It’s just a fine line between love and hate…
Nikon really is the new canon. As a Nikon user, I appreciate what you are doing here and I hope Nikon inc. reads this and learns from it. Nikon got their asses handed to them this year! The D800 is crap. Ergonomics and iq. It’s like taking a fucken dump then holding it up to your face and making click click noises. Now I just have to figure out what I am going to do with all my nikkor glass. I am thinking about putting it all on eBay and starting over.
what the fuck! you cant be serious about Nikon listening to princess chuck for their next move, arent you?
I just don’t know. You canon morons wandered around lost for several years before canon pulled its head out of its ass. Now us Nikon morons are the ones who are lost and Nikon has its head so far up its ass it doesn’t know which way is up. Keep my glass and wait for Nikon to figure it out or sell everything at a loss and switch brands? What to do….
Chuck my man, lucky you’re still around, kicking asses as bad as ever for our great enjoyment. Keep it up, man, keep it up.
You had me until you started quoting Ken Rockwell. Then again he has a similar mentality as yourslef of “I”m right and the rest of the people of this world are morons.”
I’d love to hear your comments regarding the rumor of a Canon 3D. 46 mp< LMAO… My only thought is WTF??? Is Canon gonna turn tail and follow Nikon in the race to MEGA-megapixels??? Hear we go again, it's like the USA vs USSR in the space race all over again… PR companies, start your engines…. LOL
‘After hearing of the mess Nikon has made of this problem and comparing it to my experience with my first Nikon, the D5000, I am seriously considering selling all of my Nikon equipment and moving to Canon.’
That’s EXACTLY what I did. D7000, 24-70mm f/2.8, 105mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.4, 18-200mm, Sigma 8-16mm and an SB-600, all jacked in.
Got a lovely new 5D Mk III, 580 EX II (what a flashgun), 50mm f/1.4, 24-70mm f/2.8 L, 70-200mm f/2.8 IS L. Couldn’t be happier.
Fuck you Nikon and hello Canon!
If you think the 580EXII is good, wait until you try the 600EX-RT.
I shoot along side several avid canon users, my old Nikon D3 kick Canon’s ass. You should hear the cussing and damn thing would;nt focus, or damn thing missed that one. It’s funny to listen to the disappointment if trying to capture a bird in flight for example. What really pisses of a Canon user is when we put our images on the big screen and view the percentage of in focused and well exposed action shots. Now if you are trying to capture images of stationary or slow moving subjects, the canon is just a good. My 600 F4 Nikkor is just as good as the 500 F4′s that these Canon guys are shooting. That is even after their 500 F4 canons were sent back into canon to be adjusted as they say.
You should take a look at DigitalRev yt video with their 1Dx vs. D4 overview – seems like C R&D finally did something considering AF issues, in side by side shootout D4 was loosing it.
I just wiped my ass with my D800, threw it into my fucking fire-pit dumped gasoline on it and lit the bitch on fire. Thanks Nikon, for nothin. If the CF card survived I will be posting a video of it. I doubt it though. Piece of fucken shit looks like a blob of smoking bear shit now.
Amen brotha, after sending my D800 back to Melville to fix the crippled AF issues, getting back just as bad, I sold the motha fucka. Sure, I took a $500 loss, but as the wife says, “Get rid of the Fucker and move on. Life is too short to deal with drama”.
Yeah, we got rid of a Canon crop sensor DSLR because it was a noisy piece of shit you couldn’t get a decent photo out of at anything over 400 iso. Switched to Nikon and never looked back. DXO mark scores agree with our findings, you Canon shooting retard fanboys just get all upset ‘cos the DXO marks disagree with your fanboy opinion. I bet the two ‘tards above never even owned a Nikon camera, just making up fanboy bullshit.
Nikon D600 just come in third behind the D800 twins on DXO marks sensor ratings. That would mean something to you Canon shooting retards if you knew anything about image quality. But just to generalise it for you, Nikon shooters have a higher ability to take better quality photos than Canon shooters. Less Noise, more dynamic range, higher colour depths…
Hmm, wonder if Henri Cartier Bressona needed Nikons higher ability to take better quality photos with less noise, more dynamic range, higher colour depths…
If he were alive today, he’d have switched to Nikon too.
True, very few of HCB’s images are in focus….I hear he had arthritis and couldn’t focus those antique Leica lenses. Getting a D800 would assure that he would be able to continue his out of focus technique.
love your review!! Nikons overpriced and over rated. Bought a d800 first without looking at reviews, took some shots, didn’t like what I was seeing.. decided to max my credit card by buying a 5D3 from another store, took a few shots with both in the same places. Checked the pics at home and punted the d800 straight back, lucky they accepted it! wish I hadn’t deleted the pics, they would have done justice to this review! Couldn’t be happier with how dependable this bitch is!
See above post moron
Dear FCW,
What’s up with all the Nikon Fanboys?
Are they in denial or just have masculinity issues?
Fake Chuck Westfall, now Canon approved PR. I would have preferred them succeeding in shutting the Blog down TBH.
I have bought 2 nikon D800 and i have sold them fast, because of the problem’s that they have. The lenses are good but come on Nikon, give as what Canon give, a 5D3 and a 1dx. I need a Full Frame camera raight now, but Nikon don’t have any camera to function normaly. It is a good time to be a Canon shooter.
I raced out an bought a 5D mk3 after reading your blog. Well… what a piece of shit. All my friends D800′s and D600′s shit all over this thing for image quality. My photos are dull and lifeless and if I have to shoot in high contrast conditions, I’d be better off borrowing some old Nikon crop sensor. Now I’m going to lose big dollars trading in this shitbox for a Nikon. Wish I’d listened to my friends in the first place instead of this rubbish blog.
If you produce shit with a 5D Mark III, the problem is you my friend. Go get a D800 and see what shit really is.
What a pisser!!!! you diden’t read the manual it says on page 47 (DO NOT PLACE IN THE HANDS OF MORONS)
Pingback: The 5D Mark III proves itself; The D800 sucks balls | Fake Chuck Westfall
Anyone looking at the ISO performance from dpreview shows that the d800′s image is cropped in further, compared to the other cameras. When cropped to the same size on both images, the D800 does phenominally well for a 36mp sensor. And easily compares with the other cameras. Go back to that site and check again, and notice, the images for the d800 are shown cropped more.
My only problem with Canon is, the 5D Mark III is the only camera worth buying, anything below that (7D, 60D, 600D) is worthless in terms of image quality. Nikon on the other hand, has an army of very compelling low end DSLRs (D3200, D5200,D7000) ready to steal Canons marketshare. I can’t wait to see what they have for 2k13, It will be the D7100 vs the 70D and both NIkon and Canon are playing the waiting game to see who releases first.
Camera is a camera, i own both cameras, D800E for studio and 5D MARK 3 outdoors for sports. i like them both. I like D800 cause of that old school film look it produces at higher ISO and 5D3 for fast AF. both handles well. I agree with the test result with DXOmark not being close to each other but yet again. I found out they are looking for how much color array that sensor accepts.
Hey 5D800
How good is the colour reproduction (accuracy) from the Nikon D800 compared to the 5D Mark iii?
You look like an old guy, yet yo use fuck and simular words in 50% of your sentences. Its kinda patetic. I would take you much more seriously if you would act like an adult, instead you try to act all though, pathetic.
Hey Chuck, Canon spent alllllll that time designing a new camera, adding an extra 1 megapixel and auto focusing ( one that should have been updated in the mark ii) and increased the sensor’s sensitivity by 1-2 stops, WHOOOPY FUCKING DOOO Argh pathetic canon…
Pingback: Nikon Taking a Serious Beating – DXOMark SUCKS BALLS | Fake Chuck Westfall
D700 owner with lots invested in lenses. I’ve taken great shots with the D700 but I have always been infatuated with Canon’s color, WB and over artsy feel in the overall image. I usually can pin point a 5D of some sort pretty easy. I want to sell/trade my system but I’m in the middle of wedding season but I was recently offered a straight over trade for a mkII and lenses. I have the D700, 85/1.4G, 24-70/2.8G, 50/1.4G, 80-200/2.8G and he has the 5dMkII, 35/1.4L, 50/1.4/, 85/1.4, 24-105/f4 and Sigma 80-200/2.8. |
The grade of stainless steel used for some fasteners still ...
Here's an inside look at ten more red-hot fishing machines. III of this buyers’ guide (for the first two installments
Marathon
The 2002 version of Marathon’s popular dual-purpose aluminum fishing boat, the Eurosport 21, maintains the 18-degree deep-V hull design that has made it a favorite among anglers who cross rough water to get to fishing grounds. Combined with a linear deadrise and a built-in 24-inch setback for the outboard, the Eurosport is fast, as well as seaworthy. Rigged with a jackplate and a high-performance outboard with low-water intakes, the boat can approach speeds of 70 mph.
Constructed of welded-plate aluminum, backed-up by four box-stringers and nine stiffening brakes, the Eurosport is a great choice for anglers who frequent rocky bass and walleye waters. The aluminum hull measures a full 3/8-inch thick and is flanked with sides and gunwales that are joint-laminated and surrounded by a reinforced, welded rubrail.
The hull of the 2002 Eurosport is filled with vibration-dampening, soundproofing, flotation foam below decks, while topside is a wide-open cockpit covered with synthetic, nonskid flooring. A wraparound windshield that bridges the consoles breaks in the center to allow access to the raised floor of the bow fishing area. The starboard helm console sports a fully instrumented dash and the cockpit is fitted with welded side trays for storage.
The options list available for the Eurosport is impressive. It includes a custom trailer ($1900) and, for anglers who need maximum durability, the choice of adding 1/16 inch of thickness to the aluminum hull ($950). Marathon does not package its boats with an engine, but add another $9960 for a Yamaha 150 two-stroke. — Dan Armitage
Specifications
For More Information
Marathon Marine
Dept. B&WB
7719 44A St., Edmonton, AB
Canada TB6 2R5
(888) 461-8079
marathonmarine.com
MirroCraft
A huge hit among walleye anglers when the model was introduced last year, the 17-foot side-console Aggressor EXP 1775 from MirroCraft has been refined for 2002 to make it stronger and more durable. The construction highlights include an extra plate on the outside of the transom to beef it up and a twin-hull layout on the boat’s bottom.
The Aggressor’s hull is riveted and built of two layers of 0.125-inch-thick marine-grade aluminum, an asset especially appreciated by walleye fishermen who frequent rocky waters and push through pounding seas to get to the fish.
A semi-V hull and exaggerated bow flare keep the trip dry and comfortable in wind and waves. The Aggressor’s broad beam (89 inches) keeps it stable once the boat is anchored or slowed to trolling speed.
The MirroCraft’s large, twin livewells are complemented by a pair of oversized 40-quart bait-wells, long rod lockers, lots of dry storage space and other standard features that include a tilt-steering wheel, an aluminum floor and three comfortable fishing seats.
Elevated casting decks on the bow and stern offer great accessibility for anglers, yet there’s enough freeboard to keep them feeling safe in rough water. Fully carpeted decks keep things quiet and sure-footed topside. There’s plenty of room on the bow for an electric trolling motor and space on the transom for a kicker, either electric or four-stroke.
Options offered aboard the new Aggressor EXP model include a stereo, hydraulic pedestal seats and a mooring cover. — Dan Armitage
Specifications
For More Information
MirroCraft Boats
Dept. B&WB
39 N. Harding Ave.
Gillett, WI 54124
(920) 855-2168
mirrocraft.com
Monark
First-time bassboat buyers take note: Monark continues to offer its Pro 754 bassboat for people looking for an entry-level bassboat that is still fully featured with what you need to fish. This is Monark’s number-one-selling bassboat and it markets strongly in the South and in Missouri.
The Pro 754 was introduced in 1999, but it does have some new features for 2002. Take, for example, the boat’s Quick Plane, modified-V design that the company has incorporated into its 0.100-inch, welded-aluminum hull to get the boat out of the hole faster and to improve cornering, top-end speed and dry ride. Meanwhile, torsion-beam-integrated construction controls the flexing of the hull. Underfoot lies 3/4-inch, seven-ply, pressure-treated flooring, covered with marine-grade carpet.
The boat comes fully packaged with a color-matched, EZ Loader bunk trailer and an engine (a Mercury 40 ELPTO is standard power). There is plenty of space to stow your gear, with a portside rod box, lockers beneath the driver’s and passenger’s seats, and beneath the fore and aft casting decks. A 743-42 trolling motor from MotorGuide, tacho-meter, fuel gauge, rack-and-pinion steering, 12-volt power point, dual bow and aft Rotocast livewells (12 gallons each), and two pedestal seats are also among the standard features of this boat. Optional items include a variety of outboards, a Humminbird Wide 100 fishfinder, mooring cover and a galvanized bunk trailer.
A lifetime warranty guarantees the hull. Meanwhile, a lifetime-limited warranty ensures the longevity of the deck. — Mark Halvorsen
Specifications
For More Information
Monark Marine
Dept. B&WB
P.O. Box 517
Topeka, IN 46571
(219) 593-2500
monarkmarine.com
Nitro
Nitro bassboats combine high performance with a long list of features and a reasonable price. This company’s Top Gun was given an all new look and reint
roduced in mid-2001; bringing back the performance and ride of the original 896 hull.
The Nitro NX 896 is targeted at bass tournament fishermen and sold mostly in the South and Midwest. The handlaid hull is braced with a fiberglass-stringer assembly and joined to a 2-inch pressure-treated transom. AME resin strengthens the decks without adding weight. The front deck includes a storage compartment flanked by two rod lockers. Storage compartments are also built-in on both sides of the livewell behind the bench seat. Compartments are covered with weight saving, insulated, aluminum lids. The insulated 33-gallon livewell has two aeration and recirculation pumps with timers and remote drain control.
Standard equipment includes: dual rack-and-pinion steering; Humminbird Pro 160 SX sounder; MotorGuide 12/24V foot-controlled trolling motor with 67 pounds of thrust; single or dual (add about $300 and 32 pounds for dual) consoles with smoke-tinted Plexiglas windshields; custom dash with pewter accents; speedometer, tacho-meter, voltmeter, fuel, trim and water-pressure gauges; Guest two-bank battery charger and a color-keyed, factory-matched, drive-on trailer with single axle, deluxe step pads, chrome wheels, folding tongue jack, outboard motor support, tie-downs and swing-away tongue.
Options include custom colors ($495), electronics upgrades and OptiMax engines with 150 or 200 horsepower. — Allan Tarvid
Specifications
For More Information
Nitro Boats
Dept. B&WB
2500 E. Kearney
Springfield, MO 65803
(417) 873-5900
nitroboats.com
Norris Craft
Norris Craft didn’t change its popular 2000 FXLD Vee for 2002; a testament to its fishability and performance. Introduced in 1997, the 2000 FXLD is for anglers who want a fast hull with all the amenities.
The FXLD Vee uses a time-tested, 20-foot pad-V hull built the old-fashioned way — from encapsulated wood and fiberglass with composite reinforcement materials. We tested this hull in B&WB’s July/August 2001 issue and found it to be a solid 80-plus mph performer with a 225 Pro Max. It’s real appeal, however, was its miserly way with fuel. It achieved almost 6 mpg in cruise range. Top speed handling was smooth and clean, with just a slight tendency to chinewalk; which is easily kept in check with practice and careful use of the trim and jackplate.
Detail fans will love the FXLD for its pain-staking attention to the little things; all the livewell lids are rimmed with aluminum carpet trim, cut and fit to perfection. The livewells and seatbacks are custom-gelcoated to match the boat’s exterior. Anodized gauge bezels adorn the dash, and the rigging is as immaculate as it can get. Other features include a hydraulic Detwiler jackplate, TeleFlex SeaStar Pro hydraulic steering with Pro Trim controls, Lowrance fishfinders in the bow and driver’s console, and more. Color choices combine tasteful solid gelcoat hues with metal flake to arrive at a striking scheme that shines with high gloss.
The 48-year-old Norris Craft produces only 70 boats per year. Nevertheless, a Norris Craft boat isn’t inexpensive, and could be an excellent fishing investment that will pay returns for many years. — John Tiger, Jr.
Specifications
For More Information
Norris Craft
Dept. B&WB
P.O. Box 209
LaFollette, TN 37766
(423) 562-7629
norriscraftboats.com
Patriot
Patriot’s 2050 Dual Console fishing boat is built upon a deep-V hull, similar to hull designs of offshore powerboats, with three lifting strakes per side and a concave chine. However, the 2050 DC has a user-friendly walleye-fishing interior with 25 inches of freeboard in the main cockpit area and 41/2-foot-long rod rails on each of the gunwales, which makes for an appropriately designed Great Lakes fishing package.
The boat has a 5-gallon baitwell and a 5-gallon cooler in the bow casting-deck, along with four stowage boxes. More storage is available under the driver’s console, and in the stern of the boat there is a 45-gallon livewell. Between the tall driver’s and passenger’s consoles is a large rod-stowage locker with room for 12 rods up to 81/2 feet long.
The lamination schedule of the Patriot 2050 DC includes between three (hull sides) and six layers (bottom and transom) of 24-ounce-roving fiberglass, which results in 5/8 to 1 inch of solid fiberglass. No wood is used in construction and the lay-in carpet is easily removed for cleaning up at the dock.
All wiring harnesses, control cables and hydraulic-steering hoses run into an extremely organized system of plastic piping that is secured with fiberglass to the inside of the deck. This arrangement makes it easy to install aftermarket equipment and to perform necessary preventive maintenance and repairs.
The Patriot 2050 DC is built in Lancaster, Ontario, Canada, and is distributed by Jim Devenport of J.R. Fishing Source in Wisconsin. — Doug Thompson
Specifications
For More Information
Patriot Boats
Dept. B&WB
3640 Cedar Creek Court
Jackson, WI 53057
(262) 677-8903
jrfishingsource.com
Princecraft
New for 2002, the side-console Super Pro 188 DLX has a lot for anglers to like, including plenty of open deck space, storage and fishing features. The new Super Pro comes complete with a Lowrance X-49 sonar, raised casting platforms fore and aft, a built-in tackle box, two large combination livewell/baitwells with timers for aeration and circulation and buckets for bait, lockable storage for rods up to 7 feet long and six seat base locations for the three high-back fishing chairs, which are all standard.
The hull is built of 0.100-inch-thick aluminum, with sides 0.072-inch thick, coated in a high-gloss paint. The boat’s 94-inch beam offers stability, as well as space for fishing, while the advanced reverse-chine-hull shape allows the boat to handle extremely well in a variety of water conditions. The Super Pro’s side console comes complete with full instrumentation, including tachometer, speedometer, voltmeter, trim and fuel gauges, and a panel to the right of the dash offers plenty of space for electronics. No-feedback, dual-cable steering is standard, as is a quick-release smoke windshield and interior lighting.
The bow-fishing platform features no fewer than five storage compartments — all with carpeted aluminum lids — for a deep-cycle battery, the anchor and fishing tackle, as well as a cargo net topside for quick access to items such as planerboards and bottom bouncers.
Options offered with the new Super Pro 188 DLX model include a 15 hp Mercury kicker motor, 24V bow-mount trolling motor and downrigger mounting plates. — Dan Armitage
Specifications
For More information
Princecraft U.S.
Dept. B&WB.
703 N. Huntington St., Suite 102.
Syracuse, IN 46567.
(877) 777-4623.
princecraft.com
ProCraft
ProCraft’s Top Gun entry for 2002 is designed to appeal to a wide range of serious bass fishermen. The Pro 185 SC (single console) comes standard with a 115 hp engine that keeps the sticker price and fuel consumption more affordable. The 115 is great for general fishing or club tournaments and ordering one of the optional engines up to 175 hp makes the boat competitive in regional and national events. Fish wait for weigh-in in two 14-gallon livewells with low-heat-transfer lids. Livewell management includes a Max Air Induction system and pump timers for aeration and recirculation. The boat sells best in the South and Midwest where bass is king.
The Pro 185 has been around for about five years, but improvements keep it young. Its handlaid hull is now strengthened with AME resin and braced with fiberglass stringers that combine to make it more durable than ever. ProCraft backs the boat with a 10-year ProGuard limited structural warranty.
Standard equipment includes: dual anti-feedback steering; marine-grade 20-ounce carpet; Zercom in-dash sonar with surface temperature readout; 12/24-volt MotorGuide trolling motor with 60 pounds of thrust; smoke-tinted windshield; speedometer, tachometer, voltmeter, fuel, trim and water-pressure gauges; recessed cleats and a factory-matched custom trailer with 14-inch tires on chrome wheels.
Options include a rod organizer, MotorGuide or Dual Pro onboard charger, hydraulic steering and foot throttle with Pro Trim. Trailering options include surge brakes, a swing-away tongue and a galvanized trailer with galvanized wheels. — Allan Tarvid
Specifications
For More Information
ProCraft Boats
Dept. B&WB
2500 E. Kearney
Springfield, MO 65803
(888) 776-5520
procraftboats.com
Ranger
Pictured above is the Ranger 520DVX Limited Series. Starting from left, photos of all models in this buyers' guide run in alphabetical order.
Ranger’s 520DVX Comanche Limited Series comes out of the factory fully loaded for 2002, with a host of standard features. For example, standard electronics on the 520DVX includes two Garmin 240 depthfinders, two Everstart Deep Cycle trolling batteries, a Minn Kota Maxx 74 trolling motor and a three-bank onboard charger. Well-placed courtesy lights, as well as lighted compartments, are other much-appreciated features.
Most buyers will rig the boat with a Mercury or Yamaha 225 hp engine, and SeaStar Pro hydraulic steering keeps the big powerplant in control. Ranger integrates 15 inches of setback into the hull, which helps holeshot and cuts down on backwash after a quick stop.
At the helm, a cutting-edge digital-switching system replaces individual rocker switches. The digital network reduces the number of wire connections and performs better than rocker switches, according to Ranger.
On the front casting deck, rod storage is on both sides. Each rod locker features oversized openings, locking latches and air shocks to lift and hold the lids open while storing and retrieving rods. On the rear casting deck, the recirculating 25-gallon livewell (located in the center, just behind the middle passenger’s seat) has a removable divider and filter screens, and runs on an automatic timer. The insulated live-well is lined with gelcoat, and utilizes a unique aeration system. This below-water oxygen injection process maximizes efficiency and includes the additional security of two pumps aerating the livewell. — Doug Thompson
Specifications
For More Information
Ranger Boats
Dept. B&WB
P.O. Box 179
Flippin, AR 72634
(800) 373-BOAT
rangerboats.com
Ray Craft
This East Texas boatbuilder’s Top Gun remains the V190 Pro. Introduced in 1995, this solid boat with classic styling remains popular with guides on two legendary bass factories, Lake Sam Rayburn and Toledo Bend Reservoir. Beyond the piney woods, it’s also the choice of serious bass anglers in the rest of Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Arkansas.
The boat can be tricked out with a 200 hp engine and jackplate to run with the high-performance pack, but it also performs well with less power, endearing it to guides and other budget-conscious fishermen.
Storage is abundant under the front and rear casting decks and below the bench seat. Two large, front-hinged hatches cover the bilge area. You can kneel on one while opening the other and access batteries, pumps and oil tanks without getting near the edge of the boat or hanging over an open hatch lid. The forward deck is roomy enough for two stand-up fishermen and the divided livewell easily supports tournament catches for both.
The hull has a reputation as a stump-resistant, stable fishing platform that’s easy to move with a trolling motor and tough enough to slam through rough water when it has to. Standard equipment includes: Teleflex no-feedback steering, two removable pedestals, dual-cable steering; carpeted storage compartments; gas-cylinder supports for compartment lids; custom bench seat; driver and passenger hand rails; single-axle custom trailer and a 5-year limited warranty.
Options include dealer-installed electronics, built-in battery charger, foot throttle and a dual-axle trailer with brakes. — Allan Tarvid
Specifications
For More Information
Ray-Craft Boats
Dept. B&WB
P.O. Drawer 596
San Augustine, TX 75972
(936) 275-3456
raycraftboats.com
Tags: fishing, Marathon Eurosport 21, Marathon Marine, MirroCraft Aggressor EXP 175, MirroCraft Boats, Monark Marine, Monark Pro 754, Nitro Boats, Nitro NX 896, Norris Craft, Norris Craft 2000 FXLD Vee, Patriot 2050 DC, Patriot Boats, Princecraft Boats, Princecraft Super Pro 188 DLX, ProCraft Boats, ProCraft Pro 185 SC, Ranger 520DVX Limited Series, Ranger Boats, Ray Craft V190 Pro, Ray-Craft Boats |
No, 'found!
- |2010-01-17 17:50:25 ricardo vinagre - Another film about the subjectnot a surprise to me... it`s one of the technics used to depopulate the world!
a new doc. is about to be release also regarding the water supplies, GasLand. Exposed the consequences of the United States natural gas drilling boom.
Trailer and more info @:
- |2010-01-17 23:22:43 Kevin MorganScientists and big business, along with the militaries of the world, have been preparing for this moment for at least 50 years, without our knowledge of course. In Australia, we have a politician who was rewarded with a seat in Parliament by selling our water rights to Goldman Sachs/Coca Cola.....now every council, every shire, every county has new vehicles for the servicing of all water supplies...with new logos on the side of these vehicles in EVERY State. The Logo is the same in each State/county/shire right across the country, except for the name of the town or city........go figure!
1. I wish to know how they can claim rights to something that comes from the Creator, then sell it?
2. Where is the Patent for this product?
3. Who has the balls to take these bastards to the World Court?
Answer: Me.
- |2010-01-18 00:01:31 Acharya SSoda pop! What an utter waste of water. Many people claim Coca Cola is great for hangovers, so it has some use. Coca syrup is medicinal as well. But soda overall is just plain garbage. It's worse than garbage - it is damaging to the health.
For example, the phosphoric acid in many types of soda removes calcium from the bones and teeth.
Ban soda, and several problems will be solved. Or, at least teach everyone in the world about its hazards for us and for the planet itself. Destroy the market for soda/pop, before it destroys us!
- |2010-01-18 15:27:37 kp - HFCNot to mention the High Fructose Corn Syrup that is used in all coke and pepsi products, a recent study found that at least half of all store products that use HFC have high levels of mercury in them. Mercury should not be there in nearly all cases because at no point is it used in processing of any of these products. Not to mention that corn is one of the major GMO crops which in a recent study was found to cause organ failure in most of the rats they fed it to.
We arer being sickened and depopulated, Obama's science czar, Holdren explains it in his book Ecoscience, he tell of how we "need to put sterilantz in the staple food and water" to depopulate the planet, he also calls for a "planetary regime" to enforce forced abortion and forced sterilization.
- |2010-01-20 10:15:45 Mal (the ganster from Nioka) - interested in following up on your commentsHowdy, Kevin
Interested in following up background info regards your comment about our water rights in Aust being sold off to Goldman Sachs and Coke. Can you point me in the right direction? Articles? Sources? Whatever? This really concerns me.
Mal
- |2010-01-18 00:25:35 GeneDon't forget your bottled water, all those pop and water bottle end up in the bellies of hapless (no I'm not confused on my choice of words) animals all your/my plastic waste more notedly the albatross and seagull in the pacific. It is mans "haphazard" (OUT OF IGNORANCE?BLINDLY ACCEPTING) approach to every thing that has us all over the barrel!
- |2010-01-17 20:23:55 Ed - Examples to followPerhaps it's time we should pay more attention of what it's going on on countries of the so called "third world", that in more than one aspect provide us with better examples to follow than the ones imposed on us from USA and UK. You may be interested in reading this:
Only the organized peoples of a country can do it!!
- |2010-01-19 13:06:40 Winyan Staz - Now you know why the Bush family bought all that lIn South America that sits over the world's largest underground water supply.
- |2010-01-18 02:31:18 VFRMarkKevin Morgan & Acharya S.
Right on the Money!!
Consider this also, before the days of Prozac and the rest of the pharma garbage that finds it's way into the water supplies, people were more likely to kick off big time to injustice, oppression and suppression, being ripped off day by day and being told that black is white and white is black by the powers that be, much more of this kind of thing is happening now than than ever before and yet the apathy is suffocating, and aren't the water companies being payed by consumers to filter this crap out?
Join the dots...
- |2010-01-18 03:42:38 dogismyth - The Seed Has Been Planted Among the Sheeple AgainAll you have to do is tell people its over, and they begin thinking that way.
How ridiculous. There is an abundance of water. Yes most is salinated in the form of ocean water. But so what? As soon as the powers that be begin charging ridiculous prices for water, other alternatives will become available. The same can be said for energy.
Individuals and communities need to become more independent from the capitalistic crooks that successfully squeeze us for every nickel we own. They really are worst then the government.
But do not be alarm. The people hold the power, and always have, and always will. You just have to believe that you have the power and make things happen.
Complacency is luxury only in times of abundance. Yes times are changing. But let no one tell you that you cannot control your own destiny. Those who say so, or imply such...are not to be dealt with.
- At one time, in the past and in a location I'll NOT divulge for what I hope will obvious reasons, the small town I lived and grew up in went into a full blown panic. We had but ONE MAJOR water supply for the foothills city/town that was (I use past tense as all of the waters since have been diverted and SOLD off) constantly supplied by fresh mountain run off - worry free. It was discovered that a large stash of dangerous/toxic chems had been discovered - stored away in old, abandoned mining tunnels in the nearby mountains and close to this reservoir. I'll not divulge the name(s) of these chemicals either. Firstly no one would believe it, factually this event occurred so long ago that any trace of truth would surely be next to impossible to obtain to help verify my listing these chems, etc.
These were water soluble chemicals - nothing that was or could be of use to mining techniques of the time. And it was determined that a plot to purposefully contaminte the pure/fresh water reservoir was an immediate threat. We didn't have biggie-named funded and specialized agencies to step up to the plate. No. The State itself was quick to turn the other cheek. Law enforcement people, friends and volunteers devised a plan to monitor our reservoir continually, and vehicles were "standing and ready" and nearby should firearms need by employed to defend our water. MY POINT?????? It has happened, is happening, and will happen again. Some of us have been trying to get people to wake up for decades. And? We keep trying - don't we? TY
- |2010-01-18 16:29:33 owsley - owsleyTypical response, blame the jews. Your ignorance is obvious. Drop dead and save water for someone with more intelligence.
- Yes it is jewish capital that has bought up most of the utilities. Its the ultimate money machine ...you don't pay the service gets cut off. Brascan a Bronfman empire alone owns 300 electrical power generating stations.. Epcor jew owned now is busy buying up municipal water systems across canada and the USA. Get a well drilled and a solar power system or be a slave to these monsters for the rest of your life
- |2010-01-18 19:52:37 owsleyRudy-
You are a perfect example of what's wrong in this world. You need the prozac being dumped into the water!!!! Take a pill and get a handle, cause your headed for the rubber room!!!!!
- Where we live, television commercials love showing toilets (esp at dinner time) being flushed with outdated medications and cigarette butts being dumped into the toilets for disposal. ONE SUCH COMMERCIAL AIRED FOR... ready? For "KAISER PERMANENTE"... and self promoting "health insurance" (concerned?) conglomerate.
No one.. no one took up the path of fighting this fight while it was escalating. I did, however - including a raging letter to KAISER concerning their commercial content and possible, inevitable future repercussions. There have been others.. lots of others. Thankfully, the "THEME" of flushing all toxins, meds and unwanted TRASH down the convenient toilets into systems to treat and recycle the same waters, has begun to disappear. So. NOW WHAT? TY
- |2010-01-18 10:22:23 Terry Hagan - Evidence?Where is your evidence for drugs in UK water, we do have fluoride of course but you state that UK water along with the US and Canada is "contaminated with Prozac and a "vast array" of other drugs". I read a lot and whilst I have read that this is indeed the case in the US, I have heard nothing about it for the UK. Please inform me!
- |2010-01-18 11:03:32 Acharya SThe third article linked here is about the U.K. In fact, it's by the BBC. Here it is again -
Prozac 'found in drinking water'
That article is specifically about Prozac, but I would not be surprised if there are other drugs in British water for the same reasons we have them here.
In fact, here's another article -
British drinking water 'may be tainted with prescription drugs'
Quote:Cancer drugs are of particular concern because they dissolve easily in water.
The "cytotoxic" drugs, which are used in chemotherapy, are potentially dangerous because they are hard to break down through traditional water purification methods and remain potent in low concentrations....
In January the DWI warned that tap water should be tested after they found traces of bleomycin, a cancer chemotherapy drug, and diazepam, a sedative, in samples of drinking water.
Apparently, British water is fluoridated, at least in some areas:
Minister orders fluoride to be added to water
A simple search revealed these articles.
- Water borne sewage is a dangerous system, as these results are clearly indicating. As long as we have theses systems in place we need to pay particular heed to effectively decontaminating the water before releasing it into natural systems or re-using it. Imagine what these drugs are doing to the entire food chain, from microorganisms right up to fish, soils irrrigated with this water, and the plants grown as food upon these soils.
- Self education and research is the key. There are books and web sites to explore. Flouride was never allowed in Europe for instance or fertilizers or weed killers. Salt is only put on the roads in winter when absolute nessesary. The first book "Fit for Life" made me think and research and study. Now I have a Ch.T. in Holistic Healing and it is very interesting what I learned.
- |2010-01-19 14:37:10 BruceLet's get real. Firstly The spamming coward "Anonymous"
illy:' title='
illy:' class='postemoticon' /> would have us think the jews are behind every ill. One must tear that veil down and see who really controls the jews and hires them into the top visible offices of power. That is a non issue here.
Secondly. We are not running out of water. The same amount of water is still on earth. It may be polluted, salty, or existing as atmospheric water vapor and/or contained in lifeforms but, I assure you it is still around. We have the means to purify/freshen water. This is a play on our fears and when you are afraid you lose your critical thinking and become a fight or flighter, and easily manipulated.
Stand up to, or make an end-run around the soulless non-entities called corporations and the soulless humanoid parasites that run them. What they hate more than anything, and BTW disables them is love. Keep your enemies close and beam love at them. That makes them squeamish and they do want to get away from you. Case in point: Ghandi.
Bruce
- |2010-01-19 20:23:38 just meuncapped, unlimited capitalism is the blame for many of our ills-greed. corps don't care about people -they care about bottom line. governments protect them not us for the kick backs. government allowed all here to think anyone could get rich and the race to the bottom began.
the jews invented capitalism, i think, so u may be able to blame them some tiny bit-but really it is the people's fault for not heeding the words of those who tried to set up a gov't by the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE and of the PEOPLE-no standing army, don't give bankers control (wall street) and never trust ur gov't -WATCH them closely. to the gov't those benefitting from corporations (the very rich) and the corps themselves are the only PEOPLE worthy. the rest can eat crow-no better than the kings of old. and when the people get restless cuz they can see they are being shortchanged and even harmed, the gov't calls for war against a trumped up, demonized 'enemy', so we forget with whom the real beef is. obama was a trick. and now if u say anything against him-u are a bigot. a fine way to shut u up. just like with israel. say anything against it and suddenly u are anti-semitic -whatever-a fine trick say i. america, the people of the world better take charge of their leaders and militaries before armegeddon becomes more than a biblical fairytale.
- |2010-01-18 16:30:25 owsley - re:Anonymous wrote:
goldman jews......! nothing more need be said!
A complete moron!!!!
- |2010-01-18 16:41:36 Abram Levi.
- |2010-01-19 14:37:43 m - what can we do?grow your own food?
some foods do grow well inside. i've grown lettuce and celery under plant lights.
i'm trying to grow as much of what we eat as i can.
also, trying not to buy aspartame, teflon, soda, plastic containers, canned tomatoes etc etc.
AMERICA, PROTECT YOURSELVES as much as you can.
- |2010-01-18 19:45:01 owsley - re:Abram Levi wrote:.
This is a planted response, you are a bigger moron than your brother,little moron!!!!
- |2010-01-18 20:11:10 Jon Smetana - The AMA, The Southland Corp and 7-Eleven StoresIt was ten or twenty years ago that I read that the American Medical Association (AMA) was either the major shareholder, or, one of the major shareholders, of the Southland Corporation. And the Southland Corporation was the owner of about 6000 7-Eleven stores. In other words, the AMA, thru its 7-Eleven stores, was, and maybe still is, feeding to Americans some of the most dangerous junk that was ever called food, including the "soda pop" mentioned above.
Maybe their secret unannounced motto is, "Stimulate business by feeding them junk that will cause them to need a doctor."
- |2010-01-19 09:57:27 Mal - ChloramineHere in the Adelaide Hills we have this chemical called chloramine in the water (and god knows what else) - chloramine contains AMONIA. Recently I received a letter from the water authority (can't find it so I'll just give you the gist).
The letter was a warning regarding fish tanks. It said that if tap water is used to fill fish tanks it must be put through a filter first, as chloramine will KILL THE FISH.
They signed off by saying that it is perfectly safe for humans.
So OK to drink - no worries - perfectly safe - but don't give it to your fish 'cos it will FRIGGIN' KILL THEM.
R U kidding me?
- |2010-01-19 13:39:43 Don - The SolutionIt's great fear mongering to write an article like this and not give solutions. Here is what to do: Buy a home filtration unit (not one of those off-the-shelf units at the big box stores) and get an ozonation unit. The filtration will take most of the chemicals out and the ozone will neutralize and chemicals that make it through the filtration process. That's what I did and my water tests out at 4 ppm! That's about as pure as you can get on this planet from a tap.
- |2010-01-19 15:00:29 Thomas Ventimiglia - Acharya S.
I read portions of your book quite a few years ago and just now found your website, I'm really enjoying it as I did your book. Writings such as yours and that of David Icke literally transformed my life.
Thank you.
- In addition to drugs that have long been in the drinking and household water supply, the toxic artificial sweeteners are documented to be common as well. These chemical sweeteners are well known to cause diabetes and over 100 other disease states. Another reason to ban aspartame, sucralose and rebiana.
- |2010-01-22 12:13:49 Anonymous - alessio from italyvoaporize the water and I bring it to a temperature of 140 degrees to tall pressure...? can it resolve the problem?
- |2011-05-18 17:52:55 flowergirl89 - Geo Bush and Water nown-water-resource-in-south-america-gets-a-voice/
Read this one, People better stand up to this and quit watching american Idol and start paying attn to our politicians, and what they are doing under the cover of protecting the people, just the contrary they are trying to do us in.
- |2011-05-18 18:01:08 flowergirl89Where are you going to get this water you are going to clean up. They are buying up all the sources of water in the world, even Bush bought his
- |2011-10-11 15:34:52 Bill Abbott - waterThey are buying all the water rights. They can not do anything about private wells. But they are draining the Great Lakes.
- |2011-10-11 08:47:23 Bill Abbott - Guilty of crimes against humanityI don't know why couldn't these corporations be sued for everything they got for ecological destruction and the cases of asthma and birth defects be brought up on changes of crimes against humanity? Why don't they go hardcore, because the corporations only learn when they pay severely.
- |2011-10-11 13:29:56 Bill Abbott - waterThe problem is city water when they get their hands and control what you drink. The well water is not a problem. I would suggest these people don't drink city water and always carry a water bottle. |
§ Again considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
(resuming): We have had a speech from the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment, and we have had a speech from the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert), in which he depicted in very moving terms the sad fate of the evicted tenant. It suggested to my mind bow very hard-hearted were the landowners on the opposite side of the House in the days gone by, when we have been trying to get some concessions from them for the evicted tenants. They seemed to take quite a different view of the case when it was a matter of squeezing money out of the Treasury for compensation. The hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mr. Leslie Scott) urged that this in-creased compensation should be given so as to facilitate the efforts of the Government in acquiring land. He saw a time coming when the demobilised soldiers would have to be provided with large areas of land, and he wanted the whole matter settled before then. I take an absolutely different view of the case. I think that the more we hold back, to the very latest period, the question of the acquisition of land, the better. I think that we should let these demobilised soldiers have something to say in the matter, and, I think, if they have, they will get land on very much more reasonable terms, and under different methods of compensation, than those suggested by this Amendment. Eor instance, we heard to-day from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University that none of us would possess any property if it were not for our soldiers and our sailors. I think that when our soldiers and sailors are disbanded and the question of compensation for land arises it will be dealt with in a different way. I think it quite possible that these men will say, "We will compensate the tenant, but we will not compensate the landlord." I think it highly probable if the War goes on for another year that conditions will arise in which that will be the principle on which these men will get the land. They have fought for the country and saved the country, and when it comes to establishing themselves on the landthey will say, "We are not going to pay heavy compensation to the landowner," and therefore in the, 1098 future you might be able to make better arrangements with regard to compensation than at present. The whole point seems to be that this provision is completely unnecessary. This is not a case where we are dealing with the compulsory purchase of land. All the acquisition of land is to be on a voluntary basis, and if the landowner is not going to secure from the State a price for his land which would enable him to supplement the provision which he might get from the State, the landowner would not part with his land unless a satisfactory arrangement were made.
§ Captain STANIER
The landowner in this particular case is the Crown.
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
No, the Crown is the buyer. When it has bought the land and the transaction is finished, then it is the owner of the land.
§ Captain STANIER
This is Crown land.
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
Some of it may be Crown land, but I presume that most of it is land in private possession. It is a voluntary purchase and stands in quite a different relationship from compulsory purchase. The landowner need not sell unless he gets what is satisfactory.
Captain BATHURST
I do not know that I have ever had reason to agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken until this moment. As a rule my views are diametrically opposed to his on land questions, but so far I do agree with him in agree with him in the contention which he has just placed before the House that this, being a matter of arrangement in every case, whenever offers are being made, even by the Office of Woods, of land at all likely to suit the requirements of this scheme, the stipulation should be made that generous compensation shall be given to all tenants who may be displaced. I have contended most strongly in this House and outside as to the gross inadequacy—I do not hesitate to use the phrase—of the compensation provided for dispossessed tenants under Section 11 of the Agricultural Holdings Act and under the the Small Holdings Act of 1910. I have in no way changed my views on that subject. I look forward to a time—I hope it may be soon—when we shall have general legislation which will deal fairly by all agricultural holders who are displaced in consequence of legislation of this House which has the result of dispossessing them from their holdings. There is absolutely 1099 no matter on which the Central Chamber of Agriculture has been for many years so unanimous as the adequacy of the compensation paid under the existing Agricultural Holdings and Small Holdings Acts.
I am not at all satisfied that the basis of compensation which is suggested in this Amendment is the right basis. I think that in many cases it will be found that one year's rent is wholly inadequate to compensate properly certain agricultural tenants, and in other cases—most cases I think—one year's rent would be far more than sufficient for the purpose; but in any case I do not want to see the question prejudiced in the least. If a man has suffered by the loss of goodwill as a consequence of his going to another holding where the effect of the whole of the accumulated knowledge, that is such an enormously valuable asset to a farmer, on the holding which he has had to quit is lost, and nothing whatever is given in respect of those two items, I want to see general legislation which will provide ample compensation on the merits of the case, and not by reference to any rule which may give either more or less than a man deserves, and that compensation shall be given for the loss actually sustained, according to his particular requirements. Whether it is fair or not to deal with this by piecemeal legislation of this sort, I will leave it to the Government to decide. If the Government do consent to accept this Amendment I shall ask, and I hope that all agricultural Members in this House will ask, that immediate legislation shall be introduced to provide the same benefit for all those who have been dispossessed in the past and are likely to be dispossessed in the future when their land is taken for small holdings.
Mr. CHANCELLOR
I presume that it is the intention of the promoters of this Act that the Act should work. If the cost of these holdings is added to in one direction or another, it will be quite impossible that the Act should succeed. We are going to purchase the land by a most expensive process. It is to be a voluntary transaction between buyer and seller, which is to take place under the Lands Clauses Act. Over and above that, my hon. and gallant Friend now proposes that we should put a big sum on top for compensation, amounting to one year's rent. My hon. Friend who has just sat down suggests that sometimes that will not be sufficient. While I 1100 am very anxious to be fair to all those who are damaged by any action of this House, we should bear in mind the future of the men who will be settled on these holdings. Are they to be overburdened by such a cost that the rent which they have to pay would be so high as to make it impossible to work successfully? I can conceive no more certain method of making a failure of the whole experiment than by piling up the cost of the land acquired under this Act. I believe that the cost will be found to be prohibitive, but the expense, if it increases any more, is bound to lead to utter failure, and therefore I object to this suggestion.
§ Colonel GRETTON
I agree with my hon. Friend who sits behind that as the Amendment has been drafted it goes too far. It is not necessary for the purposes of this Bill. It seems to me that an Amendment of this kind, to a limited extent, will be useful to the Government in order to enable the Board of Agriculture to acquire land without hardship to the tenant who will be removed. What is really intended is that extra compensation shall be paid, not exceeding one year's rent, to anyone quitting a holding, where such is necessary in order to obtain immediate possession. I think that some words to that effect should be added, and would make this Amendment a useful Amendment. This Bill, when passed, will come into operation immediately. Land will be wanted at an early date. Of course, Crown land and a few other lands are subject to six months' notice to quit, but general agricultural land in this country is let to farmers on a yearly tenancy, and is managed on a yearly system, and unless a tenant has a year's notice he cannot at once abandon his land without unreasonable loss. If you want to take possession in less than a year the matter should be taken into consideration. In order to get immediate possession and facilitate agreement an Amendment of this kind, limited in the sense which I have suggested, would be useful and would facilitate the acquisition of the land at a very short notice.
§ Mr. ACLAND
May I point out, as a very practical point, that where you want to get hold of land without giving the tenant the statutory notice to which he is entitled you have to make an agreement with him, and if you are determined to get the land you are practically in his pocket, so to speak. You have to pay him what compensation he thinks he ought to have for going, and this does not apply at 1101 all. This only applies where the tenant gets the proper full legal notice to which he is statutorily entitled, but if you want to take a short cut to possession you shall have to give the compensation asked for.
Major-General Sir IVOR HERBERT
I did not quite follow the hon. Member for Rutland (Colonel Gretton) on the point as to which he dissented from this Amendment. What I gathered was that he thought it went too far in allowing a year's rent. May I point out that the words are: "Not exceeding a year's rent." That does not necessarily mean a whole year's rent in every case. As he pointed out himself there are cases in which you will get possession of land at short notice, and you must have the necessary compensation paid.
Mr. D. WHITE
I think that one phrase which has been used in this discussion is apt to mislead. We have been hearing about the tenant who is dispossessed. The idea of being dispossessed generally suggests the idea of compulsory dispossession. As my right hon. Friend has just pointed out, there is no power of that kind under the Bill at all. The whole thing is voluntary, and the question which the Committee should consider is—should any tenant, who leaves under a notice to quit, receive more compensation than he is entitled to under the Agricultural Holdings Act and the other Act that has been mentioned? It has been suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Wilt-shire (Captain Bathurst), and if I may say so I agree with him, that the compensation under the Agricultural Holdings Act given to> an outgoing tenant who receives notice to quit in the ordinary way is not sufficient, but I may point out, as those of us who were here in 1906 remember, that various attempts were made to give more compensation, and those attempts—I do not want to raise party questions, but it is simply a matter of knowledge to anyone who was here at the time—were largely defeated by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. They said that it would wreck the system if that plan were adopted. Now we are told that the Central Chamber of Agriculture is in favour of this Amendment. Where was the Central Chamber of Agriculture in 1906 when these proposals were made? I am not aware that the Central Chamber of Agriculture ever suggested that when compensation was to come from the land- 1102 lord there should be greater compensation than that provided in the Bill which afterwards became an Act. Surely the same rule should apply, whether the person taking the land is the State or someone else.
This is an experimental matter. We are starting on an experimental basis. Even as the Bill stands there is more generous compensation than would be given in ordinary cases under the Agricultural Holdings Act. If you go further and throw in a year's rent as an additional bonus, then from the economic point of view, as compared with other farmers and other agricultural undertakings, this will be to the disadvantage of this scheme from the beginning, because it will work out at an extra rent and the tenant in such cases will be overburdened, or an extra burden will be imposed upon the taxpayer. I do not want to cover the burden by quartering it on the taxpayer. If there is a general proposal that the tenant leaving the land under notice to quit should receive more generous compensation, I am ready to lend a very favourable ear to it, but I am not prepared to make a distinction of the character now proposed. If I may say it to my right hon. Friend, I hope there may be very few cases in which men who are working land will be dispossessed, because a man working a farm is in fact working it on economic grounds, and if you dispossess him to put another in his place, it is possible that the other may not succeed, which would tell against the experiment, and therefore it is very important, whatever scheme of compensation is adopted, that the dispossession of men to make room for others should be kept within the narrowest limits possible.
§ Mr. ERNEST JARDINE
The hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Dundas White) and other Members on that side of the House, have put forward what is to me a most extraordinary argument, if it were not that I am used to politics. This Amendment is simply asking for reasonable compensation to a farmer who is dispossessed from a selected farm that is wanted quickly for national purposes, and it is suggested that he should not be paid proper compensation because somebody on this side some years ago objected to compensation. Those hon. Members would in that case to which I refer have been very much in favour of dispossessing the landlord, and of insisting on very great or very fair and generous compensation. To- 1103 day they are opposed to compensation in favour of the sitting tenant. I want to say that we are in favour of the compensation of the sitting tenant. We think that in the past he has not received sufficient—and I may say that the Central Chamber of Agriculture have always been in favour of more generous compensation to the tenant. To-day hon. Members opposite are opposing it. That is absolutely inconsistent with what practically everyone on that side has been saying in previous years, when they have been in favour of this compensation. Another red herring is attempted to be drawn across the path of this very fair and very reasonable Amendment. We do not want the poor soldier to be charged with the burden of compensating the man dispossessed. Who wants the soldier to be charged with that burden? Who will get up in this House and say other than that we want to treat the men, who have fought for us, in the most generous fashion, and that we mean to help them? The State should help the soldier; not the dispossessed farmer, who, with his sons, has been working the farm and has become thoroughly accustomed to working the land. I do hope the Under-Secretary will see that in some measure more generous compensation is given to the man whose farm is taken, and who had hoped to leave the land to his children. As I understood the right hon. Gentleman, he would be only too glad to carry out that view if it were the case of a private landowner, instead of the State.
§ Sir GEORGE AGNEW
My hon. Friend. who has just spoken pointed out that this Bill is an entirely voluntary arrangement, but I would like to point out to him that there is nothing so far as the tenant is concerned.
§ Sir G. AGNEW
He is entitled to his usual notice, I admit, but I do think that this House is required to act justly so far as these people are concerned to whom notice is given. I think it is only natural that a man who has been used to a certain piece of land, whether it be a large farm or a small farm, to which he has become accustomed, knowing the kind of land with which he has to deal, is entitled to proper consideration when it is proposed that he should give up his land and seek other land which may be of a totally different character and perhaps has been badly cultivated for several years, and on which he may have to incur further expenditure. Moreover, in some parts of the country a man may have difficulty in obtaining land, and may have to wait one, two, or three years. I think the Board of Agriculture ought to take that possible circumstance into consideration. So far as I am concerned, I only want to see justice done in this matter, and I think that the Amendment moved by the hon. and gallant Member ought to be accepted by the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ Committee divided: Ayes, 33; Noes, 113.1105
§ Mr. JESSE COLLINGS
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "six" ["six thousand acres"], and to insert instead thereof the word sixty."
Although my right hon. Friend has expressed unwillingness to extend the scope of the Bill, I hope that decision is not final. As the Bill stands, the Government leave themselves open to suspicion that they are merely bringing in the Bill as a kind of window-dressing in order that they may persuade the general public that they are doing something for the exservice men. It is nothing of the kind. The Bill will only put about 400 men on the land, which is a number scarcely worth considering. That operation, if I understood the answer given to the hon, Member for Devonport, will cost, including everything, about £300,000. Was there ever such a waste of money. Let hon. Members fancy the area which might be obtained for that sum, and which would afford employment, not to 400 men, but to thousands. As an instance, I would refer to the right hon. Gentleman's own county of Cornwall, where a state of things exists of which he is probably aware. The Small Holdings Committee of that place has made inquiries, and report that there are 86,000 acres of waste land quite capable of cultivation, as they have proved by cultivating some of the waste land themselves, and which is now bearing splendid crops. It will not interfere with the character of the Bill if the Government will follow the experiment of that committee in Cornwall. That land is reckoned to be worth, at the present time, a 1s. per acre per annum. 1106 If the Government experiments would go in that direction they might get thousands of acres at the same price and increase the food supply. That Small Holdings Committee passed the following resolution:After careful inquiry we are of opinion that a scheme for the reclamation and improvement of unfit land for Cornwall is desirable, and we hope that the Government will pass the requisite legislation.What makes it easier is this, that much of that land belongs to the Duchy of Cornwall, or, in other words, to the Government, so that the experiments could be made easily, and would cost no more money and would have a fifty-fold effect, both in the production of food and the employment of labour. I hope that the Government and my right hon. Friend will give favourable consideration to the Amendment. I cannot see what arguments there are against it. If he does not do so I hope to carry it to a Division, in order that we may see the nature of the support which the proposition gets. Whether it gets much support in this House or not I am quite certain that it would receive the support of 90 per cent. of the constituencies, especially of the rural constituencies. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will agree to the Amendment.
§ Mr. ACLAND
It is really, if I may say so, a delight to listen to the right hon. Gentleman, even if one, in carrying out his duties as a member of the Government, has to disagree with him. I do not say what my personal view would be, but I must make this plain that I think that there is a real substance in the desire, and 1107 that it is really essential that these men should be started on good land. Though I know that Cornish land and know that some Cornishmen have got some extraordinary pluck in tackling the land problem by embarking on some of the land which the right hon. Gentleman and I have In mind, yet it would really be no compliment to the ordinary Englishman, as distinguished from the Cornishman, and they differ a good deal, to offer him any part of land of the character of most of that land. That is not the proposition of the Small Holdings Committee, which is a proposition of reclamation. It is an engineering proposition really more than an agricultural proposition in many cases, and though I very much hope that this sort of land, and that similarly situated in many other parts of England, will come under attention when we deal with the question of reclamation, that subject has been declared out of order on this Bill, and I will not now go into it further. In this Bill we are dealing, as I said on the Second Beading, with estimates and plans which were laid down by the Verney Committee. To accept the Amendment would be to multiply the area by ten and multiply the cost by ten. It would make us abandon the basis of that Report, including the recommendation that the land really must be good, friendly, easilyworked land. There would, of course, be this very considerable increase in the possible financial obligations. The reason I am bringing this in now and not as one of what we may hope may be a series of land proposals is that progress may be made now. It may be necessary, and I hope it will, to begin to make payments under this Act long before the conclusion of the War. And surely we must have regard when we are considering expenditure of that kind during the War, for instance, to the warhings that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has uttered as to expenditure. It does differentiate this Bill from any big postwar land scheme which the Government may bring forward, and for which a large amount of money may be wanted when the War is over. It is more to the point, because this brings out what I am referring to as an essential factor, to tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House that since the Second Reading Debate so impressed was I, and, of course, the whole House, with the feeling that he and others had ex- 1108 pressed during the Debate, that since that time I have had the matter again brought to the consideration of the Cabinet, and they have felt it necessary to reassert the essential factor to which this Bill owes its birth, which really is that it is a compromise between Members having two views on the matter in the Cabinet. Just as Members have two views of the matter in the House. Some Members there very likely would have preferred to do nothing, and others there, as here, very likely would have proferred to go a very great deal further than we are going. There was naturally pressed the not unhappy compromise—I hope it will be found so in the long run—that we should start under fair auspices with three experimental colonies, which would limit the immediate financial liability for purchase, if purchase is necessary, and equipment, to a third of a million, and that it was not right in the general financial interests of the country and otherwise to go further than that. I must make it clear again, whatever our personal opinions may be, that if this Amendment were carried and the scope of the Bill extended in this way I should not be authorised on behalf of the Government again to put it on the Order Paper.
§ Mr. COLLINGS
The Amendment asks for no more money.
§ Mr. ACLAND
It would be an insult to the House to accept it and then do nothing. I should be lacking in the respect which the whole House wishes to pay to the right hon. Gentleman if I were to accept his Amendment which in character is not compulsory, and then instead of taking 60,000 acres to take only 6,000. In that sense the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is a very considerable extension of our operations under the Act, and it is m that sense that it would not be really fair to him and to the House to say, "Oh, yes, it does not matter whatever words you put in, we are only going to have 6,000." Therefore, I have to take what the right hon. Gentleman really means by his Amendment, and not what it technically says.
§ Mr. CECIL HARMSWORTH
My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has spoken of a compromise. It seems to me that the school of land reformers represented by my right hon. Friend have had much the worst of such discussions as have 1109 taken place in high quarters. We come back to this, that we are offered in this Bill—and it is the sole object of proposing the Bill—a solution of what may tend to become an enormous problem—that is to say, the problem of finding suitable occupation for the heroes of our race who are now defending this country in the trenches of Flanders and elsewhere. That is the problem confronting the Government. That is the problem so ably discussed by the Verney Committee. I really think that if this Bill is to be confined to its present limits we had better in all decency abandon the suggestion that it pretends in any way to carry out any of the serious intentions of the Verney Committee. I Tiave on the Order Paper an even more ambitious Amendment than the one we are discussing. I shall not persist in it, because, since it has been decided that this Bill is to be purely experimental, I can well imagine that any Government would shrink from devoting 600,000 acres for the purposes of experiment. But I must say that I sympathise most warmly with the view put forward so eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Bordesley Division, and I wish that even at this late hour we could persuade the Government to adopt a broader and more generous policy. At any rate, I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will convey to the Government what I believe to be the almost unanimous opinion of this Committee, that the Bill is wholly inadequate to meet the problem that we have so much in mind. As I said on the Second Reading, I shall be astonished if this measure does not cause not only disappointment but bitter resentment among our demobilised soldiers and sailors.
§ Mr. JOHN
(indistinctly heard): I am sorry I shall not be able to move the Amendment standing in my name suggesting the substitution of 8,000 for 6,000 acres. Of course, I should be much better pleased if the present Amendment were adopted. I submit that the suggestion made by my colleagues and myself is much more in harmony with the intentions of the Government and the scope of the Bill. We do not for a moment suppose that the substitution of 8,000 acres would turn this very inadequate proposal into a satisfactory proposition. Wales is very warmly interested in the Bill and generally in the question of settling soldiers upon the land. Incidentally I may say that the people of 1110 Wales are extremely anxious that the Welsh soldiers should be settled on Welsh soil. Quite a large contingent of Welsh agricultural labourers are with the Colours to-day. They frequently find themselves with English regiments in somewhat uncongenial surroundings. While they are with the Army that cannot be helped, but if they are settled on the soil away from their own country and among people speaking a different language there is a much larger measure of permanence, and the feeling is that it is highly desirable that one of these colonies should be established in the Principality. It is in that way that our proposal arises. The aim of our Amendment is that the area should be increased to 8,000 acres, and that the additional 2,000 acres should be allocated to Wales as provided in a subsequent Amendment. We believe that the whole measure is entirely inadequate and that something much larger and more comprehensive is required. In Wales we stand in a very favourable position for dealing with that larger problem, as we have a very large acreage of land eminently suitable for this purpose. The small-holdings movement has already attained considerable success in Wales, but we believe that it can be largely extended. We have, however, accepted the position, as expounded to us by Lord Selborne, that this is an experimental effort, and therefore we are urging only a very small extension of the proposal of the Government.
I believe that the proposal of the Bill will be very fruitful. You cannot do much with these colonies before the soldiers come back, and it will be a couple of years before you can know what has happened in any one colony. The proposals have an educative as well as an experimental effect. There is no necessity for experimenting in small holdings; their success has been demonstrated in Wales and elsewhere. What these colonies will demonstrate is the value of agricultural cooperation—a very essential feature of the whole scheme of the Committee—and the advantage of giving small holders the maximum facilities for acquiring agricultural knowledge and aptitude. In that respect I see great utility in the proposals. They will be living object lessons of the best method of conducting small holdings. Therefore I feel that the Government are moving on right lines, and that there is no occasion to criticise them except in that they might very justly, even from that point of view, 1111 increase the acreage in the way we suggest. A garden colony might usefully be established in Glamorganshire, where you have an immense mining population. Another might be established in Anglesey or Carnarvonshire by reason of the climatic suitability of that part of Wales. The secret of the successful conduct of small holdings is in cooperative training, and the multiplication of these holdings by the Government, with intelligent, cooperation, will be most beneficial. In the same way we feel that the establishment of these colonies will do something appreciable to stimulate the general small-holdings movement. I believe that the land acquired for small holdings in England is only some 7 acres per thousand and in Wales 9, so that an enormous expansion is possible. I would urge the Government to consider sympathetically the suggestion that one of these colonies should be located in Wales. We do not want to rob England of one, and so we suggest the additional 2,000 acres. I really think that that might be done. It is not an excessive demand, or one in conflict with the general scheme of the Government. The matter has undoubtedly aroused a considerable amount of interest in the Principality, and, as the Board of Agriculture know, very vigorous representations have been made from various bodies on the subject. Therefore I hope that the non possumus that we have received up to the present may be reconsidered.
§ Mr. L. SCOTT
The position in which the Committee is placed by the decision of the Government on this question is a very difficult one. As a member of the Departmental Committee that dealt with the matter, I feel very bitterly the small extent to which the Government have gone in the programme which we suggested. At the same time we very much appreciate the fact that the Government have adopted the principle of our proposals. What is the wise course to take in the circumstances? The Government, in perfectly unequivocal language, have stated that they will not go one acre further than the provisions of this Bill; that they will not go one acre more than 6,000 in England and Wales, or 2,000 in Scotland; and that if the House divides against the Government on the matter, and introduces an Amendment which takes the scope of the Bill beyond that very limited boundary, the Bill is 1112 dead. There is an old proverb that "Half a loaf is better than no bread." My own view of the principle of that proverb is that where the portion of the loaf offered is a one-hundredth part instead of half that it is wise to take it. This Bill is a very small fragment if it is to be regarded as an instalment of the measures to be taken to satisfy the soldiers. It is unsatisfactorily judged in that way. On the other hand, if we take the Bill according to the label given to it by the Government as an experimental Bill, and regard it merely as an opportunity on the part of the Government to acquire certain information as the starting of this type of colony, then I would respectfully suggest to this Committee that they should rather accept the Bill as a means of teaching the Government how to do the thing, than reject it altogether. In paragraph 39 of Part II. of the Report of the Departmental Committee—the Minority Report—we summed up the position under the First Part about settlement as follows:In Part I. it was contemplated that some 5,000 men might, after the War, be settled in State colonies, and another 5,000 men by county councils. But if this is be be done land must be acquired, and colonies equipped ready when they are wanted—That is to say, before demobilisation is over.We, therefore, think that the Government should forthwith extend their operations on the lines of their present Bill and also introduce a Bill to amend the Small Holdings Act of 1908 to effect the other changes advised in paragraphs 103 and 114 of Part I. of this Report, to enable county councils to establish colonies of small holdings similar to the State colonies.With that general view I am in very strong agreement. I believe it to be the true view. I am perfectly prepared, however, to recognise, in regard to small holdings, that the position is different to what it is in regard to the employment of labourers. The offer of the Government to men to go back in respect of employment as labourers at the end of the War must be absolutely ready by the time the War ends. You have got to make the offer within the conditions of life which are available here in the Old Country, so that men may exercise their option, with the full knowledge as to whether they stay in the Old Country or go to the Dominions. In regard to the small holdings, I also recognise that it is possible to proceed more slowly than was indicated in the paragraph which I have read, because if the men are assured—and you want the men to be assured and really convinced—that the Government are on the way to carrying out a general scheme 1113 of small holdings, then they may be willing to undertake agricultural employment as labourers, although those particular individuals would much rather have—and intend naturally, in the end, to have—small holdings of their own.
This question of acreage to be allocated as small holdings naturally raises the broad question as to what proportion of men can be given holdings, and what proportion of men will want holdings. Estimates have been made—and I believe they will turn out right—that something like 300,000 to 400,000 will be wanting a life on the land. It may be 500,000. Of that total, of course, a large number—those who are adventurous particularly—will "want to emigrate to the Dominions. If I may, for the sake of brevity, respectfully refer to an article I wrote for today's "Daily Express," let me say that I stated reasons at length there. I believe there will be a larger number who wish a life on the land than indicated by any returns that can be obtained from the front. There are two factors that will affect the situation in men's minds after they get back, and which cannot operate when they are at the front. The one thought that many men will have while they are at the front is that there is only one thing they want, and that is a. roof over their heads, and a quiet, warm corner where they can get away from the conditions which they have had at the front. Many will consequently go back to their indoor or underground employment only to find subsequently that, after all, they want a life in the open air. Another factor is the dilution of labour and the economising of adult labour, which, for the moment, cannot have their effect at the front. This will inevitably be a factor operating when the men come back, and it cannot be altered entirely. The result must be that many a man who wants to return to his old trade in some urban occupation will find it impossible to do so. There will be many men whose services will be no longer required. These two factors will go to affect the estimate obtained from the front of the number of men who now say they want a life on the land.
The figures of Sir Douglas Haig give an average of 17 to 20 per cent. Some of these men were in agricultural employment before the War; but, broadly, even if 97,000 be the average selected from the Army at the front, it cannot have been a very high percentage—for this reason, I do not think 1114 that more than 350,000 altogether out of 4,000,000 joined the Army from the ranks of agriculture. That is less than one-tenth. Consequently, the allowance for agricultural men in the return ought, I think, to be put fairly low. We cannot state exactly—for the matter is vague—but if this be somewhat like the number who are wanting a life on the land afterwards it is perfectly ridiculous to suppose that a proposal which deals with three colonies and allows for 300 men altogether can be treated as a real instalment of the small-holdings system, which is to be applied to the extent of 10,000 men altogether in the first two or three years after the War. Consequently, I venture to submit also very strongly to the Government that the scheme in this Bill should be treated by the Government in the sense that they have themselves, through the right hon. Gentleman, regarded it. He told us it was to be regarded as an experimental Bill to enable the Government to learn. The Government have invited the House to accept the assurance that it is experimental. All right. If we accept that offer which they are making from the Government to take the Bill now as merely experimental, and we let it go through, as I think we ought on that footing, then I say it is the duty of the Government to go on from experiment to reality, from sample to bulk, in time to meet the demands of the men as they come back. Subject to that understanding, I strongly urge that we should not press the Amendment.
§ Sir R. WINFREY
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will persist in going to a Division. We must try to show the Government what a strong feeling there is on both sides of the House in favour of extending the scope of this Bill. We have seen that the Government have had to climb down once to-day. It is just possible we may be able to make them climb down again.
§ Sir R. WINFREY
I do not know about that, but in my judgment this is really not providing sufficient land even for an adequate experiment. Let us look at the information we have received up till now. We have been told, during the course of the Debate, that 2,500 acres of land have been secured in South Yorkshire on Crown land. I do not exactly know the place, but I believe the soil is alluvial. That only leaves 3,500 acres. My hon. Friend behind 1115 me says that they have got a promise from the Government that one of the colonies shall be in Wales, if suitable land can be found.
§ Sir R. WINFREY
At any rate, there is to be a colony in Wales if suitable land can be provided. I should imagine in the Principality of Wales there should be no diffiealty about that, so that that disposes of another 2,000 acres—that is 4,500 acres out of the 6,000, and that leaves us with 1,500 acres. Where will that be? I should think probably in Worcestershire, or somewhere in that locality, where they will want to carry out an experiment in fruit farming. So that we shall have one experiment in South Yorkshire, a potato-growing area largely, I imagine. We shall have the Welsh experiment, and one smaller experiment of only 1,500 acres in the centre of England. The whole of the county of Lincolnshire, the premier agricultural county, I think, in England, with its three county council areas, is not to have a single experiment, and yet I believe I am right in saying there is Crown land there which has been offered for this experiment. There is most excellent land on the borders of the Wash, in Lincolnshire, that can be had, which the Crown are prepared to place at the disposal of the Department which has been set up to deal with this matter. But, so far as I can see, they will not be able to accept it because of the limitations of this Bill. I think that is a thousand pities, and I do press, therefore, on the right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of this Bill that if he cannot accept 60,000, that he will, at any rate, extend the proposal in order that we may have one experiment at least in the Eastern Counties, one in the far Western counties of Devon or Cornwall, and one, say, in the Midlands; and then you have your colonies in Yorkshire and Wales. If we cannot get the whole loaf, we shall be glad to have a half loaf. Under the present proposal we shall not be able to demonstrate all classes of holdings. The hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. Prothero), who is not in his place to-day, declared that we have never had a successful experiment in small holdings producing meat and bread. If I might be allowed, I could produce figures showing we have already had successful experiments of that sort. In three farms in which we have been running small 1116 holdings for twenty years we have got 577 acres of arable land and 140 acres of pasture land. That is how the three farms are divided. What are the crops. upon this land at the present moment? I am very sorry the hon Member for Oxford University is not present to hear them, as he would see we are producing: both beef and bread. I find the crops on this acreage are: 200 acres of wheat, 123—acres of oats, 50 acres of barley, 136 acres of potatoes, 26 acres of roots (mangolds and turnips), 19 acres of seeds, 1 acre of peas, and IS acres of beans. Those are the crops growing on those farms.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)
The hon. Member seems to be replying to a speech of another hon. Member on the Second Reading of the Bill. I do not think this is quite the occasion for that. I must ask the hon. Member to come back to the particular Amendment.
§ Sir R. WINFREY
I very much regret the hon. Member for Oxford University is not here, but I was going to tell him the number of horses on these farms was 73, of cattle 161, of pigs 381, and of poultry 1,630. Therefore, it will be seen that we have tried the experiment for ourselves. I should like the Board of Agriculture to try that experiment on the very Crown land I have in my mind in South Lincolnshire, and I venture to say you could get small holders to produce bread and beef on that land. There is one criticism I should like to make. I think that some of these schemes are inclined to be too elaborate if you follow the Report entirely of the Verney Committee. I do not think there is the necessity for the elaboration and expense in all these things.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but really the question is whether "6,000" should be "60,000." It is simply a question of the size of the land which the Government propose to take.
§ Sir R. WINFREY
My point was that, as the Verney Committee have provided for a very elaborate scheme, the Government should try this elaborate scheme upon three of these colonies, and that they should have at least three or four other colonies where the scheme was not so elaborate, where our Small Holding Commissioners themselves could manage, without having to go to the expense of a 1117 paid manager with £500 a year in charge of these colonies. We have six Small Holding Commissioners of our own who at the present time are doing nothing for small holdings, but are busy upon war work, and who might be put in charge of these less elaborate schemes. I suggest that the kind of men we should put on these less elaborate schemes are the men who have had previous experience in agriculture. You have probably got out of my Constituency at least from 700 to 1,000 men, sons of small holders, all having experience of land. When they come back they will not want to be spoonfed like this by instructors at £500 a year and all the elaborate machinery. That is all very well for men coming from the towns to these colonies without any previous experience in agriculture, but for those who have had previous experience, I suggest you might cut down your expenses very considerably, and put those colonies in charge of Small Holding Commissioners, buying up land at once, making small holdings of them, and starting credit banks and trading societies. That brings me back to the point that all that is possible under the Clauses in the Bill, but you cannot carry it out because you are not providing sufficient land for the purpose. Therefore, I do press on the right hon. Gentleman that, if he cannot go as far as 60,000 acres, he will at least double or treble the scope of this Bill.
§ Mr. HAYDN JONES
I wish to press very strongly upon the right hon. Gentleman the necessity for increasing the acreage from 6,000 to, at any rate, 8,000, 10,000, or 12,000, or even up to 60,000, if he can, because I am convinced that 6,000 acres for experimental purposes is absolutely inadequate. Take, for instance, the case of Wales. After having promised, as we thought, that one of these colonies should be located in Wales, the right hon. Gentleman has just said that if land is offered which is more suitable in England
§ Mr. ACLAND
I think I ought to put that right at once. No words have ever been said which promised Wales a colony by anyone in any responsible position in any shape or form. All we have said, and all we do say, is that if the best site can be found in Wales for one or for all the colonies, they shall be in Wales, but no pledge can be given that one shall be in Wales without any regard to its being the most suitable land.
§ Mr. JONES
I understood those Amendments were out of order, and therefore I thought it convenient to pressthe case of Wales by arguing in favour of increasing the acreage. I cannot see what objection the Government could have to increasing the number of acres.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
That subject is not out of order, but if it is dealt with now in a general discussion I cannot allow another discussion on the same subject when we come to those Amendments. Hon. Members must select which coursethey will pursue, on the understanding that the discussion is not to be repeated although the Amendments can be moved.
§ Mr. JONES
I think it is necessary to increase the number of acres under the Bill in order that we may have all classes of farming represented. If you confine this measure to 6,000 acres you will not be able to deal with Wales in the way it should be dealt with, because their agriculture is conducted in a perfectly different manner. The right hon. Gentleman may say that the land in Wales may not be equal to the land in England, but it is equal to the Welsh farmers, and they wish to return after the War to their former life in Wales. I urge the Government to take the powers, whether they use them or not, to acquire more than 6,000 acres, and that is a matter for them afterwards. Even if they put in 60,000 acres, it does not follow that they will have to take them. If they require any further acreage they will have to come tothe House with another Bill. I press that point. For experimental purposes you cannot deal with a small area like 6,000 acres. I press very strongly upon the right hon. Gentleman that he should reconsider the whole position.
§ Mr. T. DAVIES
I am sure all wholistened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley (Mr. Jesse Collings) will agree that it was a convincing speech, proving right down to the ground that the acreage mentioned in this Bill is not sufficient to carryout what is suggested by the Government. It seems to me little more than a mockery to go down to agricultural districts saying that these men who have joined the forces and have been fighting 1119 for their country for months, when they come back will be provided for under a Bill like this. What provision does a man who has been used to agriculture require? He does not want any provision except land. [An HON. MEMBER: "Money!"] No, not money. Many of these men who have gone to the front have bitherto been the better class of farm labourers and sons of small farmers, who will be of greater service to the country if they get land on which to settle down than they can be in any other way. I have an Amendment lower down on the Paper, and I suppose if this is carried I shall be in order in moving it.
The DEPUTYCHAIRMAN
I was referring to the Amendments on the other page dealing with the specific case of Wales, where it is proposed to get at least 2,000 of the 6,000 acres for Wales. If the decision of the Committee is that the word "six" stands part of the Clause is agreed to, of course that is the end of it.
§ Mr. DAVIES
I wish to take this opportunity of supporting the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley. Even if you only take one county, part of which I represent, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the whole of this 6,000 acres can be taken up over and over again by men who have joined the forces, and who will, I hope, come back again. The county I refer to is one of the biggest agricultural counties in the country, but I understand that it is not proposed to give even an experimental colony to that great agricultural county. What objection can there be to the Government accepting this Amendment? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot get 60,000 acres he may be able to get 10,000, or 20,000, or 30,000. Supposing after six months' time the right hon. Gentleman finds that the demand is so great that even his 60,000 acres are absorbed in three months' time, then he has no more land to give them, and the result will be disappointment to thousands of other men who would like to be placed in the same position as their fellows. If my right hon. Friend will press this Amendment to a Division I shall feel bound to support him in order to show that some hon. Members who represent agricultural districts know that the land is required when these men come back, and they ought, to be dealt with in a special way by the Government. I tope the Parliamentary Secretary has not 1120 said the last word with regard to this Amendment. I know that the right hon. Gentleman would like to see as many soldiers as possible put on the land, and if he had his own way, I believe he would accept this Amendment. I appeal to him to allow this small thing for which we ask, for it will simply be a mockery to the men when they return from the front to tell them that there are only 300 or 400 provided for out of so many thousands who will want land when they return.
§ Mr. HINDS
I feel very strongly that 6,000 acres are far too little for England and Wales, and I am really disappointed with the whole scheme of the Government. It is totally unworthy of the Board of Agriculture to bring in a tinkering measure of this kind, and it is time they reconsidered it. It is not worthy of a county council of any size. Six thousand acres for England and Wales when there are thousands of soldiers who are anxious to come back to the land! There will have to be some system of selection, and you will disgust the soldier who is anxious to have his bit of land when he comes back. The claims of Wales have not been considered by the Government in the way that they ought to have been considered. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to hold up his hand, but we have not been persistent enough, and it is time we Welsh Members pressed our claims more than we have done in the past.
§ Mr. ACLAND
I have never known anything better organised.
§ Mr. HINDS
I am very glad to hear it. Thousands of Welshmen, most of them farmers and agricultural labourers, have gone to the War. Recruiting has been most successful in Wales. The case of the Welsh farmer is very different from that of the English farmer. He wants to stop amongst his own people when he comes back, and he does not want to be shifted into England. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said something about sentiment. There is a good deal of sentiment in this matter. The Welshman wants to stop amongst his own people in the land where he has been reared. Religion and the associations of youth come into this matter. The Board of Agriculture, instead, come forward and say that if the Welshman wants a colony at all he must go to some part of England. We have in Wales land suitable for these people, and I maintain that the Government will only 1121 be doing right to give 2,000 acres to Wales. We demand it, and we ought to have it. The Welsh Commission, with regard to land, said:The typical Welsh farmer feels the utmost reluctance to migrating to England, even when there may be a pretty sure prospect of his being able to better his circumstances by so doing. Very rarely does he make the removal of his own free will, while in many cases nothing short of eviction and sheer inability to obtain another holding would induce a Welsh farmer to go beyond the limits of the Principality.There is the most obvious case of the regiments who have only got one language. There is one regiment which had to be drilled in the Welsh language. These people when the War is over want to come back amongst their own people. They would feel very awkward in a colony in England. I say that we have made out a case for having one of these colonies in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman the other day said that one reason why they could not give one of these colonies to Wales was that Wales was a country of small holdings; that was one of the disadvantages of having one of the colonies there.
§ Mr. ACLAND
One of the difficulties.
§ Mr. HINDS
Yes. But when we can find the land I do not think that holds good. The men have been used to small holdings in Wales. They know what they can get out of 50 or 25 acres of land, and they have had the experience. The Welshman has been used to these small holdings, and knows what to do. That is a great argument in favour of putting these men back in smallholding colonies. We are not so populated in Wales as in some parts of the country, but we have excellent markets for our produce at Cardiff and Swansea, and I think it would be a good thing on economic grounds. The right hon. Gentleman just now said that the Welsh Members have organised themselves. The Government have not dared to leave Scotland out. Why should Wales be treated differently from Scotland? Scotland has got 2,000 acres. It is not half enough. I should give ten times as much to Scotland. The Government are losing a great opportunity in not extending the scope of the Bill. By extending its scope you can get the men from the cities back to the land once more, and you will bring a good deal of sunshine into the life of the soldier when he comes back from the War.
§ Mr. ELLIS DAVIES
There is an Amendment later which proposes that 2,000 1122 of the 6,000 acres shall be in Wales. I take it that Amendment will be in order?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
Yes, it can be moved, but in view of the discussion taken on this Amendment, I shall expect very few remarks in moving that Amendment. This Debate does not shut out hon. Members from moving their Amendments, but it does prevent them from talking at large on them.
§ Captain STANIER
I rise to support the proposal made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Bordesley Division (Mr. Collings). We have had it very forcibly put to us from Wales, and I should not like it thought that we who represent English constituencies, although we are close to Wales, do not urge the same point that the Welsh Members have made. An hon. Member opposite said that this 6,000 acres was a mockery. I would go a little further. We cannot use words strong enough to put it to the members of the Coalition Government that this 6,000 acres is a mere drop in the ocean. They thought fit to send out to the Commander-in-Chief inquiring what soldiers really wanted land. Of the 5,000,000 who have been enlisted 97,000 have been asked, and 17,000 of that number said that they wanted to come back to something similar to that we are proposing. On that basis, I estimate that there will be some 850,000 small holdings wanted, and, if that is so, this is a mere drop in the ocean. We are asking the great Colonies in this Empire to come to our help and give holdings to those who will go out from this country at the end of the War. Supposing half of them gothat is, 400,000—will not the Colonies absolutely laugh at the Mother of Parliaments for only preparing to give land to 300 out of the 400,000 who will have asked for small holdings? That is all you are doing. You are not going to make all these small holdings in a day, or even a year. You do not get possession until next Lady Day, and it will be a year before you will get started. You have appointed a Committee to go into this great question, and they have laid the whole of the facts before you. You will find everything practically mentioned in the Majority and the Minority Reports, and, looking at it in that light, you must admit that the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Bordesley Division is only something that should be justly given to those who are risking 1123 their lives for the sake of this country, and you must come to the conclusion that this is an inadequate scheme. It is a mockery of the whole question, and if you do not improve it and create it so that you can enlarge the borders and boundaries of your scheme, you will not only have this country and all the soldiers in it laughing at you, but the Colonies, which create this Empire, looking at you with scorn and derision.
§ Mr. ANDERSON
I wish to support this Amendment, and I must express, first of all, my surprise at this sudden and incomprehensible modesty on the part of the Government. The Government in these day's in many directions takes a practically unlimited power into its hands, but with regard to an experiment of this kind, where it is asked to have somewhat arger powers with regard to the direction of this experiment, it absolutely refuses to accept any of these wider powers. This Amendment does not say they must use 60,000 acres. It says that the Government's experiment shall not exceed 60,000 acres of land; that is to say, it may be anything between the 6,000 the Government are now proposing and the 60,000 that the right hon. Gentleman opposite suggests as a more suitable maximum. I do say that in between those two figures of .6,000 and 60,000 there would be a far wider scope for various experiments, and different experiments, on the lines suggested by the various Members in this House. I am quite sure that the Parliamentary Secretary when he spoke did not put very much heart into his opposition. He said he had to speak for the Government who put forward a compromise, because, once more inside the Government, apparently, according to the Parliamentary Secretary, there are people pulling in this direction and others pulling in that, and the result is what the right hon. Gentleman calls compromise legislation, which is usually very bad because it is an attempt to please everybody and it pleases nobody.
§ Mr. ACLAND
made a remark which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
§ Mr. ANDERSON
No, I know. It is a great pity that you do not agree in a matter of this kind, because if the Government would agree, and if the Government had been a little bolder they would have had no opposition from any part of this House. The discussion on the Second 1124 Reading made it quite plain. From every part of the House, with, I think, the solitary exception of the hon. Baronet who represents the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), everybody suggested that this experiment, even for an experiment, was far too limited, and that something bigger and better ought to have been done. What was it that the Parliamentary Secretary said as an argument against accepting this proposal? He said, first of all, that we had to limit this very much because, of course, the colonies had to be founded on good land. Does he suggest that the possibility of good land is limited by 6,000 acres? Surely he does not suggest for a minute that the question of getting good land is going to determine whether the maximum is going to be 6,000 acres or 60,000 acres.
§ Mr. ACLAND
I used that argument in connection with finance to point out that if you are only taking good land, as you multiplied the area you would multiply the cost.
§ Mr. ANDERSON
I was coming to the other argument, which was a warning about expenditure and the necessity for limiting expenditure on this matter to something like one-third of a million. I would be very much more impressed about this question of expenditure if I did not see a great deal of bad expenditure being allowed to go on in this country at the present time. If we are going to limit expenditure, we ought to limit it first of all with regard to useless and luxurious things we are still permitting. Here is expenditure for something good. I am sure it is good, because otherwise so up-right a Government as the present Government would never propose it. If it is good, there is far less danger in this which is good and necessary than in many useless things we are allowing to continue at the present time. I do say, in conclusion, that surely in various parts of the country there is room for different kinds of experiments, for modifications of the colony arrangements, and so on, and if this is going to be done there must be something wider than this miserable proposal of 6,000 acres on which you are going to put some 400 men. The figures just given by the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Captain Stanier) showed how widespread the desire will be among many of the soldiers, and the experiment must really be conducted on much bolder lines. Already the limited character of the proposal has had the 1125 effect of driving Wales into revolt, and I am quite sure that many of the Welsh Members will be bitterly disappointed if they are not going to get their own share of this experiment. If this is going to be done, it is obvious that something bigger than the present proposal must be undertaken. I suggest once more that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman 'opposite does not compel the Government to take over 60,000 acres; it says they shall not exceed that, and it puts far wider powers into their hands. If the initial experiments work out well, the Government will have more power to extend the experiments, and if the initial experiments are failures there is nothing in this Amendment that compels them to go on in those circumstances.
§ Mr. MOLTENO
I wish to ask you, Mr. Maclean, for a ruling as to whether the provision for Scotland, which is made in Section 10 of this Act, must be discussed now, or whether we can have a separate discussion with regard to the provision for Scotland on Clause 10?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
I think the provision with regard to Scotland says, that so far as Scotland is concerned it will read "two" instead of "six," and on the specific Scottish case the discussion must arise there. On the general question, I propose to allow the hon. Member to make what remarks he thinks fit.
§ Mr. MOLTENO
I am much obliged for your ruling, Sir, which will naturally limit what I have to say. I wish strongly to support the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Collings), but I will confine myself to the speeches of other hon. Members. This seems to me to be an utterly inadequate provision for meeting with a great national demand, and that is that the people of this country who are defending it should have some right to a share of it when they come back again. This really does not make any provision for that. It is a mere travesty of a Bill to deal with a very great problem. We are to have 300 holdings in England, and in Scotland forty. In Lewis alone we have 5,000 men who, when they come back, will want the land, and there are 25,000 in other parts of Scotland who will want the land. I strongly urge upon the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government that the universal sentiment of this House is that this Bill in no sense meets 1126 the case. We have had a valuable Report from the Verney Committee, which has done very good work. It has brought out most valuable facts, much information, and many valuable suggestions. But so far as the carrying out of that in this Bill is concerned, the measure does not carry it out at all, and, as has already been pointed out, what we want is land for men who already understand small holdings. You want places where they can go at once; you do not want a long process of training for men who cannot do that, though that is a good thing. There are tens of thousands of men fit and competent if you would let them have the land on fair conditions, and who could take charge of it at once and become successful small holders. I cannot understand the doubt about small holdings being successful in this country and all this paraphernalia, when you think that out of the 511,000 farms 340,000 of those holdings are the size of from one to fifty acres. The successful farmers of this country are in a very great proportion small holders. I see, Mr. Maclean, that you are rising to call me to order. I will not pursue that point. I only mentioned it in passing. There ought not to be this extreme hesitation on the part of the Government to come forward with a really bold and adequate scheme to meet what is the universal feeling of the country. It is said that the landlorls do not favour these jsmall holdings. I am quite sure that the attitude of the landowners has been very much changed by the War, and that they are ready to welcome men on their land now in a way they never did before. We ought to seize upon that feeling so that we should all be working towards one common end with an interest in one common question to get the men back to the land.
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
I am afraid I am unable to agree with my hon. Friend who has just spoken. I am very glad indeed that the Government is only dealing with this matter in an experimental way, and are limiting the area of land. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I can quite understand hon. Members not being able to comprehend why I should take that attitude. It is simply because I have a different vision from theirs of the future. There seems to be a great air of unreality about this Debate. Here we are spending time talking about land reform, very much on the old lines. The only matter of difference between hon. Members is whether the area 1127 should be 6,000 or 60,000 acres. To my mind within 100 miles of us the old constituted order of things is being blown away. It would be grotesque and undesirable at this moment, when we know so little as to what the future will bring, except that it will be something far different from the present, that we should establish something on the old traditional lines which, as a matter of fact, have failed. The statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer only two or three days ago that the cost of the War has now gone up to over £6,000,000 a day is going to have a tremendous effect on the question of the acquisition of land for small holdings. If we have this expenditure and gigantic increase of taxation it is impossible that that will not affect the value of land, because that increase of taxation must fall more or less upon land, and the inevitable consequence will be that you will send down the purchase price of land. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is going up!"] Of course it is, because we have a Coalition Government which is taking very good care that taxation should fall upon all interests except the landed interests. When the millions of men return from the front the reverse process will operate. You will then find taxation being removed from the necessities of life and thrown on land monopolies.
That is my View of the future. That being the probability, it would be absurd at this time to set out to purchase land in large areas. What is the position to-day? Owing to the War the price of everything grown upon the soil has been artificially raised. The consequence is that there is to-day an artificial price being demanded for land. Hon. Members opposite in the past have demanded Protection for the purpose of raising the price of farm products and the price of land. To-day they have virtual prohibition. They have higher prices for their commodities than they have had for generations and which we all hope will never occur again. It would be doing wrong to those men we are going to establish on the land, under quite other conditions, at this moment of artificial prices to purchase large areas of land on which they will be settled. They will be settled on these terms and will become, on these terms, practically the slaves of the soil. The hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mr. Leslie Scott) has spoken several 1128 times on this Bill and has frequently referred to a Minority Report to which his was one of the signatures. I am quite confident' that if he approaches this question with the belief that the country will adopt in the future legislation of the nature adumbrated in that Report he is very much mistaken. I have looked through that Report, which suggests that we should have artificial prices for wheat and all the old bad system of working the land. If you capitalise all the things suggested, which in the nature of the case must go into the pockets of the landlords, it would mean a present to them of some hundreds of million pounds. I do not believe that those conditions will be brought about after this War. There will not be legislation to enhance the profits of the landowners. The very opposite will take place, There will be taxation to diminish them.
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
Very nearly.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN
If he has not, I would suggest to him that he is going far wide of the Amendment.
§ Mr. OUTHWAITE
I quite agree, but so many references have been made as to what is going to happen after the War in advocacy of the proposals in this Bill, that I thought I might perhaps be in order in putting another point of view of what is likely to occur. My point is that at this moment, with these artificial prices, it would be disastrous to purchase land at such prices, land upon which men will be settled when quite different conditions will arise. I hope the Government will restrict the purchase of the land to the limits that are in the Bill.
§ Mr. PETO
I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Outhwaite) into what I am sure the Committee felt were very irrelevant remarks with regard to this Amendment, but I would point out this, which is pertinent to what he said, that he appeared to regard any further purchases by the Government of land as a very doubtful speculation. I have not so poor an opinion of the future of this country as the hon. Member has. When we are talking about this one-third of £1,000,000, which is the limit of Government expenditure, we must remember that £215,000 of this one-third of £1,000,000 represents the cost of the land. It is very unfair to regard this as a question of expenditure, on the part of the Government. 1129 It is capital expenditure. There I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson), whom I was delighted to hear support my right hon. Friend the Member for Bordesley in this matter. It is not fair to look upon this as if it were a question of capital expenditure or any other kind of expenditure which is unremunerative. I can imagine no more remunerative expenditure for the State than expenditure upon putting upon the land, under suitable conditions, the men who have fought for that land. It is very desirable to remember that out of this one-third of the million, of which so much has been made, only £119,000 represents the cost of equipment, tenant right, farm material, and everything else, and that £215,000 is the cost of the land. I have only one other remark to make, and that is to call attention to the opening and closing remarks of Mr. Henry Hobhouse, the Chairman of the Committee, on whose Report this Bill is founded. He says:I have signed Part II. of the Report as Chairman in deference to the opinion of the majority of my colleagues and because I am in substantial agreement with them as far as it goes.He ends with these remarks:From the inquiries we have made it is clear to me that a very considerable acreage, say, at least 1,000,000 acres, or one-third of the land which has been allowed to go down to grass during the last thirty years, might be brought again under the plough to the advantage of the nation as a whole.He points out that there are at least 1,000,000 acres, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Jesse Collings) asked for 60,000 and the Government say they will only give 6,000 for this experiment to place the soldiers who are fighting for us now upon the land. Are we to suppose that the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Board of Agriculture and his Department are such bad business men that they dare not go beyond this paltry experiment of the investment of public money in land to the extent of £215,000 for this gigantic purpose, when the Chairman of their Committee says there are 1,000,000 acres of poor grass land waiting for profitable employment in arable cultivation? I leave it at that, and I hope the Committee, on purely business lines, will show its disapproval of the attitude of the Board of Agriculture.
§ Mr. MORTON
I do not think we ought to wait for this reform until we can get Che land in the way foreshadowed by my hon. Friend (Mr. Outhwaite)—until we 1130 can get it for nothing, I suppose. All we know is that we are not likely to get it for nothing, and, above all, we know that small holdings are successful wherever they have been tried in this country—at any rate, that is my experience.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
We are not debating the question of small holdings, but whether it should be limited to 6,000 or 60,000 acres.
§ Mr. MORTON
I am glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Collings) came down to propose this Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill stated practically that he was in favour of the larger figure really, but that the Cabinet had fixed it at 6,000. If the Government have done that and ordered that it shall be adhered to, they ought to be here to defend their policy, and we ought not to be told by the Minister in charge that he can listen to nothing at all, but has his orders to stick to 6,000. There ought to be some member of the Cabinet present to defend the policy of the Government, if it is worth defending. This is a shabby Bill, and the Government ought to be ashamed of it. Something will have to be done for the soldiers when they come back after defending and protecting this country, and we ought to do it in a liberal way. I do not believe a penny will be lost over the transaction, and it will do nothing but good. With regard to Scotland, we are to have 2,000 acres. That is no use to Scotland at all.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
There is Clause dealing specifically with Scotland.
§ Mr. MORTON
Two thousand acres are no good to the people of Scotland who want land.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member must not say that here; he must say it on Clause 10.
§ Mr. MORTON
Then I understand we are to have an opportunity of rediscussing the matter on Clause 10. I think you have already intimated that if the word "six" is kept in the Bill we cannot discuss the Amendment afterwards.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The difficulty is that the hon. Member has not taken the trouble to read the Bill. If he will read Clause 10 he will see that it deals specifically with the case of Scotland.
§ Mr. MORTON
Then the word "six" will not affect Scotland. I trust that the 1131 Committee will stick to the Amendment and pass it as the very smallest amount we can do. We have been told distinctly that the meaning of it is not that they shall necessarily at once deal with the 60,000, but simply that they shall have power to do it. The Government Department which will have the carrying out of this, in my opinion, ought to have power to deal with more than 6,000, and the very least that we can authorise them to deal with, if necessary, will be 60,000.
Mr. D. WHITE
On the question whether the amount should be 6,000 acres, which is proposed by the Government, or the larger amount, it must be borne in mind that the Government have calculated the finance required on the basis of 6,000 acres, and this is essentially an experimental Bill. If it had gone very much further some of us who have been supporting it would have been against it, because we do not think the experiment is likely to be a success. At the same time, we do not want to prevent it being tried, and therefore we do not oppose it, but I think it is hardly fair for hon. Members to try to develop the experiment into something much more than an experiment, when it is on an experimental basis. An hon. and learned Gentleman says that this is an experiment, but as soon as we have got the experiment settled we shall go on. The object of an experiment is to see how the scheme works. We want to see how it works, and we want to see that on a limited basis, so that if it does not work well the loss may not be too great. Some hon. Members have spoken as if this were the one and only way of settling returned soldiers on the land. There are many other ways. The hon. Member (Mr. Peto) spoke of thousands of acres of grass land which were awaiting development.
Mr. WHITE
And I presume the Chairman said that he meant that they could be developed by small holders on a commercial basis. If they cannot be so developed I do not see the relevance of his observation. If they can be so developed why should they not be developed on an ordinary basis? Surely some gentlemen who are interested in agriculture would take up these acres at a reasonable price and develop them on a commercial basis, without any question of money coming from the Treasury to start an experiment.
There is one other point, and it has been rather overlooked in the Debate. It was made by the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Outhwaite). Under present circumstances the price of agricultural produce has gone up very greatly, and the price of agricultural land has gone up similarly, and if the Government step in and buy agricultural land now, even at ordinary market prices between man and man, they will be paying much more than they would have had to pay if they had bought it some years ago, and probably considerably more than they would have to pay if they buy it some years in the future. In other words, they would be buying land at top price. That is not a sound basis, if it can be avoided. Therefore I make an appeal to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) that wherever possible, instead of buying land, unless he can get it at an almost exceptional rate, he should rather prefer to lease it for a term of years, with the option of purchase afterwards.
§ Question put, "That the word 'six' stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 67; Noes, 37.1133
§ Mr. JOHN
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "acres" ["shall not at any time exceed six thousand acres"], to insert the words "of which two thousand acres shall be located in Wales."
Sir H. ROBERTS
I desire to support this Amendment. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture stated some time ago that if suitable land could be provided in Wales that we should have a chance of having a certain portion of this 6,000 acres. I do not wish to I be unbusinesslike or unfair in any appeal that I make in regard to this matter, but I do think that the special conditions applicable to Welsh agriculture, and the conditions of Wales generally, do give to us in Wales the right to ask that, if we can provide as good land for this purpose in Wales, then, upon the ground of sentiment and nationality, we in Wales should have, at all events, a portion of the land allocated for the purpose of the soldiers who return from the front. I do not like to make comparisons between the doings of Welsh soldiers and the heroism of any other soldiers, but I do think there are circumstances in connection with Wales which entitle us to ask that some special recognition should be accorded, and I desire very strongly to support this Amendment because I believe that it would give great satisfaction in Wales, and be helpful in bringing about the object which we all have in view.
Major-General Sir I. HERBERT
On a point of Order. I would like to know if Monmouthshire would be included in Wales under this Amendment? An Amendment lower down says specifically "Wales and Monmouthshire." It will make a great 1134 deal of difference as to whether I shall vote for this Amendment or not if it includes Monmouthshire.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
This is not a point of Order, but a point of information. As far as I know, Wales does not include Monmouthshire, for the purpose of legislation, unless it is so stated.
Major-General Sir I. HERBERT
Would it be in order for my hon. Friend—I am sure that it was an oversight on his part—to withdraw this Amendment, and allow the later Amendment to be moved?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
It is quite open to the hon. Baronet to move an Amendment to the Amendment to add after the word "Wales" the words "and Monmouthshire."
Major-General Sir I. HERBERT
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "Wales" to add "including Monmouthshire."
Captain BATHURST
Surely "including" cannot be correct, because Monmouthshire is in England and not in Wales.
§ Mr. E. DAVIES
I desire to support the Amendment. It seems to me that if any advantage is to be gained by the establishment of these colonies by way of experiment, or by the giving of instruction, that we in Wales, who are supposed to be rather backward in agriculture, should have the advantage of that experiment. 1135 The case of Wales stands by itself. Wales is entitled to special treatment in this matter, in which she has a peculiar interest. A very large number of our men voluntarily, and others by compulsion, have left their homes to fight for their country, and may come back maimed and unable to take their place in the industrial army. These men have absolutely no knowledge of the English language. They have less knowledge of the English language than most of the members of this House have of the French language. Nobody here would suggest for one moment that English agricultural labourers should be compelled to settle down in a part of the country where they are unacquainted with the language and customs of the people, and the same principle should be applied in the case of Welshmen. I practise as a solicitor in the county town of the county which I represent, and I tell the Committee as a simple statement of fact that I do not carry on my business as a lawyer and I do not speak the English language with one man in twelve of those who come in my office. Does any hon. Member really think that I take the trouble to translate technical and legal terms to my clients in order to waste time? I do it because I am compelled to do it by the conditions in which my practice is carried on. Reference has been made to regiments taken from my Constituency where they have been trained to whom orders are given in Welsh. Are those men to be denied the advantages of this scheme? Am I to go to my Constituents and say, "We asked you to go and risk your lives for your country, but the Government, notwithstanding our appeal on your behalf, have told us that if you want instruction, if you want to be taught farming to enable you to make a living on the land, you must go to an English colony. You must go among a lot of people who differ from you in language, tradition, habits, and everything which really tells ultimately upon life." I ask the right hon. Gentleman seriously to consider the matter. In view of the fact that provision has already been made in the Bill for the case of Scotland, there is an equally strong case why the Welsh soldier should be provided for in his own country and not sent to a colony in England.
Mr. CARADOC REES
May I say one word as a Welshman born out of Wales. I agree with everything that has been said by those who represent Welsh 1136 opinion. I take it that the main object is to send men as nearly as possible to the environment from which they came, and not send Welshmen to Scotland to come back speaking Welsh with a Scotch accent. No one would think of sending Englishmen to Wales and trying to compel those Englishmen to learn Welsh and our Welsh soldiers and those who are disabled should be as far as possible put back in the country whence they came. They should as far as possible be put near the friends whom they left in Wales, and on these grounds I support the Amendment.
§ Mr. ACLAND
I think that we have already discussed this in dealing with a previous Amendment. The case of Wales has been put very eloquently. As one who spent many years of my life in the constituency, the representative of which has just spoken, I sympathise very much with the point of view which has been put forward. The Welsh are a distinct race. Their farming habits to some extent are different from the English, and they are in very many ways born small holders, and if any people are likely to make a success of this kind of holding, it is returned Welsh soldiers. The fact that they are so good is shown by the circumstance that Wales, much more almost than any part of England, is a country of freeholders, and at present there is a considerable number of perfectly prosperous Welsh farmers now on the land. I do not, however, think it would be fair to say more than that if one, or more than one, of the best offers of land situated in Wales is made, the Government will be extremely anxious and will most certainly endeavour to close with them. But in trying to make this experiment we are bound to take the best offers that are made, whether they come from Wales or from England.
§ Mr. E. DAVIES
Why do you not do that in Scotland?
§ Mr. ACLAND
Scotland has a separate Board of Agriculture, and that, I believe, is one of the ambitions of Wales, so that they will either get their colonies or have their grievance, which, after all, is something. I think it is not at all unreasonable that the area dealt with by one Board of Agriculture should be dealt with as a whole, and that the area dealt with by another Board of Agriculture—namely, that of Scotland—should also be dealt speak English, whose customs and ideas differ from those of the Englishman. If he wants a farm 1137 with as a whole. We are constantly working on Welsh offers, but I cannot give a definite pledge on the subject of the Amendment.
§ Mr. E. DAVIES
This is not a question of the land; it is a question of the soldier, and the making of provision for maimed and wounded soldiers who have sacrificed everything for their country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not maimed and wounded soldiers, but all soldiers!"] It is to make provision for wounded men. But at any rate, supposing it is to make provision for all soldiers who have made sacrifices for their country, I would again point out to the right hon. Gentleman that you cannot send a Welsh soldier to England who does not you tell him he must go to England, and I put it to the Committee that it is a piece of cruelty to tell a Welsh soldier that he must go to England, whose language and customs he does not comprehend and is not in sympathy with. You would never dream of sending an English soldier to the middle of my Constituency, where he would be unable to carry on conversation with any other people. Why should the Welsh soldier be put to this indignity? Why should he be sacrificed, and be denied privileges given to the English soldier by the Government? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot meet us on this point we shall be compelled to divide the Committee on the question.
Captain BATHURST
I am entirely in sympathy with Welshmen in their demand that suitable land for the colonies shall be found in Wales, but I take it that there is this difficulty, that whereas a very large number of offers of land in various parts of England—and the amount required for this purpose is 2,000 acres and upwards—we have not so far had a single offer of 2,000 acres en bloc of suitable land in Wales. But so anxious are we to try and find suitable land in Wales for the purpose of the colony, that I have myself asked to be allowed to give up visiting, for a period now of six weeks, any land offered from any part of England on the chance of finding something suitable in Wales. The hon. Gentleman opposite has referred to Anglesey. So far we have not had an offer of anything like 6,000 acres in Anglesey. The most offered has been 1,340 acres, and that has been offered, not by the owner, although I have every reason to believe he is sym- 1138 pathetic, but by the Anglesey County Council, in their endeavour to secure a colony in that county. I am not at all sure that Anglesey is by any means the best part of Wales for a colony. Personally, I would infinitely rather see the right type of land sought for, and, if possible, in the Vale of Glamorgan, or in some other part of that county, where a colony would enjoy exceptionally good markets as outlets for produce raised upon that land. There is just the possibility that such land may be available in the county of Glamorgan, but no definite offer has yet been made of suitable land in Glamorgan. All I can say is there is the possibility of suitable land being found in that county.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will allow me to say this, because I have myself seen, I think, all the Welsh Members in the House who are interested in this matter, and I have assured them, and I should like to assure the Committee, that I for my part have done everything that I can, subject to the terms of my instructions, to find suitable land in any part of Wales, and of sufficient area and well adapted for the purposes of one of these colonies. Personally I have not given up my efforts in that direction, but my instructions are that England and Wales for this purpose are to be treated as one unit. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Those are my instructions, and unless and until you carry such an Amendment as this, or alter the Bill, my instructions are that the best possible land for the purpose of these colonies is to be sought for in England and Wales, treated as one unit. I have asked that a certain time should be allowed to elapse to enable me to find a large enough area of suitable quality to enable Welshmen to have an experimental colony in the Principality. One strong reason that has not been adduced before the Committee for putting one of these experimental colonies in Wales is this, is that there is no part of Great Britain in which there is a greater development of the cooperative spirit than there is in Wales. That, after all, is going to be the marked feature of this experiment which will distinguish it very largely from other attempts at small holdings in this country. All I can say in conclusion is that I, for my part, will maintain every sympathy and an open mind, and if Gentlemen opposite persuade owners—instead of county councils, or trade unions, or other bodies to 1139 pass resolutions—to offer suitable land in larger quantities, I shall, for my part, urge the Board to accept such an offer.
§ Mr. TOWYN JONES
I do not think that Wales and England should be treated as one unit. The Government asked us to go down to the country, and I myself took part in a hundred recruiting meetings in which we asked the young manhood to go out to the Continent and fight for small nationalities. This is a question of the Welsh soldier, and I think the Welsh soldier ought to be treated as well as the English soldier. I am afraid there is a tendency in England to belittle the Welsh soldier and the Irish soldier. [HON. MEMBEES: "No, no!"] There is in the Press, and I speak from knowledge. We feel a great deal of interest in agriculture, and are doing our best to better the land and get more out of it. I do not think it is right for Englishmen in this House to do all they can against Welsh interests. You shout that you are fighting for small nationalities and you trample on the rights of small nationalities at your own door. You love the English language, and we love the Welsh language, and we are doing our best to preserve it against the encroachment of Englishmen in Wales shouting down our language. After war was declared the Press said that if the Germans came here, German, and not English, would be taught in the school. We are quite willing and we want the English language to be taught in our schools, but we want, at the same time, to retain our Welsh language. We are fond of it, and we know that if we lose our language we lose the best sentiment of people and religion, and morals in the country go down. Do not shout to the world that you are fighting for small nationalities and trample on us. My Constituency is half agricultural and half labour, and I have to speak to the people, especially in the agricultural districts, in the Welsh language. They do not understand the English language. Why should you deal unjustly towards the Welsh soldier who is fighting for you on the Continent of Europe.
§ Mr. JOHN
I think it is right that I should make some reply to the speeches we have heard, both from the Parliamentary Secretary and from the hon. Member for Wilsthire (Captain C. Bathurst). We recognise very warmly the services that the hon. Member has given to the whole 1140 scheme and his sympathetic attitude towards our demand from Wales. We quite recognise the trouble he has taken, and we hope he will continue in his good efforts. It has been represented that this proposal might imply the displacement of the tenants of small holdings in the Principality. That is a very natural thing to contend because we have a very large proportion of small holders in Wales. In my own county, while there is a great number of small holdings there is at the same time a number of large farms in the immediate vicinity let as accommodation land. Keference has been made to Anglesey. If there were compulsory powers in this Bill, as there should be, you would have most suitable land there. There has been, I understand, the offer of a large farm in Glamorganshire of about 750 acres where the labour employed at present is very small. Whilst the proposition remains that Wales is a country of small holders, it is equally true that there are abundant farms to be had on which there is not a due proportion of labour employed. There is the fundamental issue involved in the proposition that Wales and England are to be treated as a unit in this matter. Agricultural interests in Wales are quite comparable to those of Scotland and Ireland. We propose to persist in this demand for separate treatment for Wales, agriculturally, in season and out of season, and as a commencement we propose to stand by our Amendment and go to a Division upon it. This is only part of a much wider movement. We are convinced that the problems which will come before the House are of such magnitude and complexity that the sooner we get on with a general system of definition the better for all concerned.
§ Mr. EDGAR JONES
10.0.P.M. I am sorry that the Board of Agriculture has taken up the line which has been disclosed on this Amendment. I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman opposite (Captain C. Bathurst) for what he has endeavoured to do, but I can assure him that in this matter he is up against the same old problem we have always had to face since the Board of Agriculture takes up the attitude that it exists to look after agriculture in England. That has always been its attitude, and whenever Wales has wanted anything for agriculture it has had to fight for it. That has been the case for the past twenty years and we have never got any consideration or attention without a tremendous lot of 1141 trouble and agitation of a specialist character such as we are engaged in to-night. It is perfectly clear, despite all the excellent efforts of the hon. Member for Wiltshire, that as things stand at present there will be no farm colony in Wales, and that things are drifting to that pass, and that means no Welsh soldier under this scheme at all. You cannot get away from that and the Board of Agriculture, which exists for England, does not care a straw about it, and thinks not of the Welsh soldier but of the soldier in the abstract. The Welsh farmer adopts different methods from those in England, but the Board does not worry about that. They are the Board of Agriculture for England, and we have got to fight and to appeal to the sympathy of a few Members to join us in the Division Lobby, so that we can get something in Wales for our soldiers. It is perfectly clear they will not go to the colonies in England. The lack of a colony in Wales means that we will have none of the benefits of the organisation to which hon. Members opposite have set their minds with such excellent effect. There will be no colony there to teach Welsh soldiers, who may have to go elsewhere, the particular kind of farming suitable to Welsh conditions. You will have colonies in parts of England that will deal with the kind of land there to be found. For instance, the hon. Member opposite (Mr. L. Scott) when advocating this Bill in principle the other day referred to the excellent effects that might be obtained financially and otherwise by fruit farming. You are not likely to get much of that in Wales. The kind of thing that you can develop in Wales is totally different. On that ground, as well as on others, we claim that we have to get a colony of our own, and we will trouble this House and bother the Board of Agriculture, and get it before this Session comes to an end, or nobody will have any peace. We will make a start to-night, although we are sorry to detain the Committee, by going to a Division.
§ Mr. L. SCOTT
The arguments of the Welsh Members have convinced me that there ought to be one of these experimental colonies in Wales. The difficulty is the decision of the Cabinet that there is not to be more than 6,000 acres for England and Wales. I want, if I may, whilst expressing agreement with the Welsh Members that chiefly because of the Welsh nationality and the Welsh language there ought to be such a colony in Wales, at the same time respectfully to make a criticism of their 1142 method of approach to this particular Bill. This Bill in my view is experimental in one sense only. It is not experimental from, the point of view of whether or not small holdings are successful in this cauntry. We know that they are a success, and that, with the conditions indicated in the Departmental Committee's Report, that success can be greatly increased. The experimental aspect of this Bill to my mind is that there has been no instance yet of a colony, in the full sense of the word, of small holders with the organisation for a central farm, central expert advice, and a system of collective buying, collective marketing, collective selling, and collective credit. These elements have not yet been applied. That experiment in my view is wanted much more in order to teach the Board of Agriculture and its. officials, than to teach the small holders. From that point of view it does not much matter whether the colony is in England or in Wales. But from the other point of view I think it ought to be in Wales, in order that the spirit of cooperation which has been more developed in certain parts of Wales than anywhere in England may be utilised to the full in one of these new colonies. I do not know whether, with their great arts of persuasion, the Welsh Members can induce the Government to stretch its limit of 6,000 acres a little bit. It would be a very good thing if they could. The view of the Departmental Committee was that in order to get the maximum of success there ought not to be less than about one hundred families in one of these colonies. For fruit and vegetable gardening much smaller individual holdings are possible than in the case of dairy farms, arable or grass, or ordinary mixed farms. In the one case we thought that with suitable land five or ten acres would do, while in the other case—dairying and mixed farming—20 or 25 acres would be necessary, or 50 would be better. For that reason we advocated in the case of dairying and mixed farming colonies a minimum total acreage of 2,500 acres, and in the case of fruit and vegetable growing a minimum of 1,000 acres. Taking two colonies at 2,500 acres, one dairying and one mixed farming, you have only 1,000 acres left.
§ The CHAIRMAN
That does not arise on this Amendment.
§ Mr. SCOTT
What I suggest to Welsh Members is the practical difficulty of insisting in their Amendment that there 1143 shall be one colony in Wales when you have only three to deal with. In spite of that, however, I intend to vote for the Amendment.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR
I hope that my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill will reconsider his position. I quite understand the Welsh point of view, and I hope my right hon. Friend will comprehend it also. The Welsh soldier returns. He desires to settle on the land. Can anybody who understands the Welsh character be surprised that the land on which he wants to settle is the land in his own country? In some cases his own language is more familiar to them than the language of England. I am unable to understand the position of my right hon. Friend. The Welsh soldier has certainly deserved well of the country. I am sure my right hon. Friend is entirely in agreement with the Welsh Members in thinking that the Welsh soldier should be looked after. If the Welsh soldier is to be looked after, and to get his share of the land, surely the place where he ought to get the land is in his own country. If that is so, I do not see why out of the 6,000 acres my right hon. Friend cannot reserve 2,000 for the
§ Welsh soldiers. He is really going against national sentiment and national feeling, and I trust he will reconsider his position.
§ Mr. A. WILLIAMS
I do not think that anybody who has listened to the Debate can doubt that the Welsh claim has been thoroughly made out. There is only one argument against it, and I think I see a way of meeting it. That argument is that there are only 6,000 acres altogether. I suggest that between now and the Report stage my right hon. Friend should secure from the Cabinet an increase of this 6,000 acres to 8,000, with a view to one colony being in Wales. With that in mind I shall certainly vote with my Welsh colleagues on this Amendment.
§ The CHAIRMAN
There is an Amendment to the proposed Amendment. We will dispose of that first.
§ Question put, "That the words 'of which 2,000 acres shall be located in Wales, including Monmouthshire' be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 51; Noes, 46.1143
Question, "That the words 'including Monmouthshire' be added to the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.
Mr. D. WHITE
had an Amendment on the Paper, in Subsection (2), after the word "Acts" ["Lands Clauses Acts"], to insert the words "subject to the modifications of these Acts set out in the Schedule to the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act, 1916."
§ The CHAIRMAN
The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member is not in order. There is no such Act.
§ Mr. ACLAND
I beg to move, at the end of Subsection (2), to insert the words " and the provisions with respect to any lands being common or waste lands."
I said on the Second Reading the Board had no intention whatever of taking any common land, and this will add at the end of the Clause another category of land of which we do not intend to make use. I think it will be clearer to put (a), (b), and (c) against the last part of the Clause. This Amendment will deprive us of being able to use the powers of the Lands Clauses Acts, which, under certain circumstances, might be used to acquire this land by compulsion. We do not want to take any common land.
Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir W. BEALE
I beg to move, at the end of Subsection (2), to insert the words " and so much of Section sixty-nine as relates to the application of deposited moneys to ' the purchase of other lands to be conveyed, limited, and settled upon the like uses, trusts, and purposes, and in the same manner as the lands in respect of which such money shall have been paid stood settled.' "
This Amendment is intended to extend the exceptions from the Lands Clauses Acts to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred. They have already excepted, very properly, the Clauses relating to compulsory purchase. They have excepted the Clauses relating to the taking of commons, which would enable them to dispense with the whole of the commoners, and they have excepted, for reasons I do not know, provisions relating to the sale of superfluous land. I do not see how they could possibly have applied in this case. But' what I want to except is this, and it is really a rather serious point, because, although it may not often happen, it is a serious grievance if it does happen. They have retained the Clauses of the Lands Clauses Acts which enable you to buy, by agreement, from 1146 persons under disability—that is to say, a tenant for life or a guardian of art infant—glebe land and other lands. They are allowed to buy by agreement from people, who could not otherwise make a title, on the promise that the money is paid into Court. Section 69 of the Lands Clauses Act, to which my Amendment applies, provides that when that money is in Court it remains there until it is applied either in payment for encumbrances or land similarly settled or improvement of buildings and that kind of thing, or in the purchase of other land, or until somebody becomes absolutely entitled. I do not bother about the Clause dealing with encumbrances, but a person becoming absolutely entitled can come and have the money reinvested in other land at the expense of the promoters of the undertaking, who under this Bill would be the Board, and they would be put to the expense of paying all the cost of reinvesting the money in land under those circumstances, instead of leaving it until somebody becomes absolutely entitled. The money should be invested and remain in Court. These Clauses entitle anybody to come and say, "No, we will have it reinvested in land, and the Board must pay all the costs of investigating the title."
I have known occasions where people entitled to quite comparatively small sums of money have come three times over for reinvestment, and this has piled up the costs far out of proportion to the value of the land taken. I propose simply to strike out so much of Section 69 as says that it may be applied to the purchase of land. I do not mind that if it is done at the cost of the people concerned. Section 85 provides that the promotor shall pay all the costs of the application for reinvestment in land. I am quite willing to make that apply to Section 85, but I thought the neater way was to take away the right to claim the purchasing of the land at the expense of the promoters, leaving it there so that the person entitled may have the money out and reinvest it at their own expense. If the Amendment of the ban. Member for Tradeston (Mr. Dundas White) had been in order, and if the Acquisition of Land Bill had become an Act, this could have been done in a simple way. This Amendment has practically the same effect, because there is nothing to prevent people, when they are absolutely entitled, taking up the land and investing in other land 1147 at their own expense. It is only to prevent the unnecessary cost of the Lands Clauses Act which forces the promoters to pay.
Captain BATHURST
It is not clear from the Amendment what Act is here referred to. Section 69 is spoken of, but there is no indication of what Act this Section forms a part.
§ The CHAIRMAN
I think that is partly due to the acceptance of an intervening Amendment. It must be the Lands Clauses Act.
§ Sir W. BEALE
It should be the Act of 1845, of course.
§ The CHAIRMAN
If I put it in that form it would involve the presumption that, earlier in the Subsection, some other Lands Clauses Act is referred to.
§ Sir W. BEALE
That is simply done by definition. They have been lumped together.
§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member must not rise whilst I am standing. If this Amendment is accepted, it will have to be put right at another stage.
§ Mr. ACLAND
My hon. and learned Friend has moved this Amendment in a very learned manner, perhaps too learned for me. We find in practice that these limited owners, such as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and so on, have actually power to sell otherwise than under the Lands Clauses Act, and, as a matter of fact, very little money is paid into Court. We cannot imagine that a case will actually occur where it will not be possible to make such a voluntary arrangement as shall preclude money having to be paid into Court, and therefore preclude the expenses of the investment falling on the person who takes the land. If no money is paid into Court, no cost of the investment could fall upon the scheme. It therefore seems to us that the Amendment is not necessary. 'It is a complication that is not likely to occur, and to the extent that the Amendment introduces a modification of the Lands Clauses Acts which has not hitherto been recognised, I would very much prefer, on the general principle of not introducing a new principle into Bills unless they are needed, 1148 not to accept the Amendment. I can assure the hon. Member that we shall not need this power, because we anticipate that anything we have to do will not mean money being paid into Court at all. The point, therefore, will not arise, and if my hon. and learned Friend could see his way not to press his Amendment on this occasion I should be very grateful to him.
Mr. WHITE
The difficulty will not arise if you purchase from an absolute owner, but you may purchase from a limited owner who has not power to give title, and in these circumstances you can only proceed by paying the money into Court for the benefit of the beneficiaries of the trust, whoever they may be. That is the case which my hon. Friend desires to meet. If these circumstances arise, then he is quite prepared, as we all should be, that the cost of the original investment of the money in some other land should be borne by the public. He thinks, and I think with him, that if reinvestment is wanted subsequently that reinvestment should not be at the expense of the public, but at the expense of those in whose hands the reinvestment of land is made.
§ Mr. ACLAND
May I look into this further between now and the Report stage?
§ Sir W. BEALE
After the statement of the right hon. Gentleman I do not wish to press this to a Division. I know that the whole circumstances have greatly changed by enactments that have taken place since 1845. The only object was to guard against a possibility, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman for having said that he would do his best.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Major-General Sir I. HERBERT
I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the word "may" ["Board may pay"], and to insert instead thereof the word "shall."
I feel sure this will at once command the general support of the Committee. It is an Amendment, like the former one I moved, put forward at the instance of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, and is designed to secure to the agricultural labourer the compensation for disturbance which is given in the Bill, but which is only made permissive on the Government side. The Parliamentary Secretary, at an earlier 1149 period of the evening, explained to us how, in drafting language, "may" and "shall" are synonymous. In this case, I think, his definition would not apply, because this is not a case of giving powers to a Government Department, but it is a case of making sure of the statutory right which is given to a certain class of His Majesty's subjects to receive compensation. It must have been an oversight on the part of those who drafted this Bill to have omitted to make it a certainty that this class, those connected with the land, should not be fully secured. We have now in the Bill compensation for the landowner, who will get the price of his land; for the occupier, who will get a certain amount of compensation, though not the full compensation I should wish him to have; and now there is a permissive power to grant compensation to the agricultural labourer, and that power I should wish to see made absolute and mandatory.
§ Mr. ACLAND
This Subsection is, of course, taken verbatim from Section 43 of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908, with the simple change of "the Board " in place of the " County Council." All that I said earlier in the evening on not altering initial legislation when you incorporate it in this Bill applies to this. It was, of course, debated at the time the Small Holdings Bill was under discussion, and as a matter of fact the hon. Member for St. Albans then, in 1907, did propose that the word "shall" should take the place of the word that we now find, "may." I believe the hon. Member for the Newport Division (Captain Stanier) was present in the Committee on that day when that proposal was made. It is rather difficult to remember things so long ago, but I have refreshed my memory on the point, and I think the hon. Member for South-East Lancashire (Mr. Tyson Wilson), whose name is down in support of this Amendment, was also there. That was upstairs that the Committee stage of that Bill was being taken, and although, if my memory serves me, they were taking Divisions every half-hour or so, they did not have any Division at all on this. It was a matter which was negatived without a Division. That is the history of it so far, and I would prefer that a matter upon which the hon. Members for South-East Lancashire and Newport did net think it necessary at that time to divide should not be pressed now, particularly as, with all respect to my hon. and gallant Friend (Major-General Sir I. Herbert), I cannot 1150 see that the change of the word " may " to "shall" would really make any difference, because if the Committee wilt look at the words of the Subsection they will see that those words run "the Board may pay to him such compensation as they think just."
My hon. and gallant Friend does not propose to alter those words at all, so that it would only read "shall pay to him such compensation as they think just."
§ Mr. ACLAND
But, surely, under "may" the Board would give what they think just. Let us consider how the matter will arise. I am hoping that no question of the dispossession of labourers will arise at all, because we shall want, in developing these holdings and in the first part of the cultivation of the central farm, to keep on the existing labourers who want to stop. If a labourer wants to move and improve his position, no time like the present has ever existed when it would have been easier for him to do so and get better wages. I believe these cases will not arise, because we shall absorb such labourers as wish to remain. Assuming a case does arise, the question will be what compensation is to be given. Under the Clause we have to settle what compensation we think just. Presumably a proposal is made by somebody in the office and we shall say whether we think such compensation, say, £50, is just. We should be acting under the existing law in going into the matter in that way. The only alternative proposal is that, instead of saying that we may give the compensation which the President of the Board has decided to be right and just, the Clause should say we shall give it. If it has been decided by the heads of the office that certain compensation ought to be given, all that is gained by using the word "shall" is that the cashier has to pay what he is directed to pay by the President. That is not the sort of power you want at all, because, obviously, when the head of the office has decided what is the just compensation to be paid, that compensation will be paid, whether the word be "may" or "shall."
§ Mr. ANDERSON
Then why not put it in?
§ Mr. ACLAND
The reason I hope the Committee will not put it in—although I do not think it has any effect in law—is that if we adopt Sections from existing legislation I would rather adopt them as they stand, without making alterations. I do not want to make any alterations in the existing law, because they would have to be applied to all compensation, and to county councils in regard to labourers dispossessed for the purposes of small holdings. I do not want to adopt in this little Bill alterations which reflect on the existing law and which will be used as arguments for changing the existing law. The Committee Iras agreed on a previous Amendment that in time of war it is not desirable to raise a matter of contention, and that it is fairer to let the law remain as it stands. In this particular case it would make no difference at all to the labourer, because the Board will give the compensation they think just, whether the word is " may " or " shall." But as it will make no difference at all to any single labourer, I hope the Committee will consent to keep the law as it is, and not change it when they adapt it to the new Act.
§ Captain STANIER
The arguments against the Amendment are exactly the same as they have been put before us as on the last Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman. When I listened to the speech it struck me that the very arguments which were being used to oppose this Amendment were absolutely the arguments we wanted to back the Amendment up. A great deal of water has run past the Houses of Parliament since 1808 when we debated this very point upstairs, and I recall to myself the fact that I had only been in the House about ten days when that Committee took place, and perhaps I thought it over and changed my mind in that time. I certainly have, and I cannot conceive, if the arguments brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Board of Agriculture are correct, why he copsiders that we cannot now, after eight years and a bit, change this word "may" into "shall." He says it is not going to do him any harm. It may do the agricultural labourer a great deal of good, because it is the actual word "shall"—"it shall be paid to him"—and without reading up Johnson's Dictionary on the word "shall," I think we should all agree that it is a very much better word to have in an Act of Parliament than the word "may." I do not 1152 know how many times I have heard it argued in this House, and it is the exception that proves the rule. I am going to ask that to-day, having had eight years of the word "may," that we shall have that now changed into "shall." Who on the other side is going to say that because the tenant of land who is dispossessed shall have compensation, the working labourer may have compensation? I consider that the one man who stays ought to have his compensation. I sincerely hope the Amendment may be taken to a Division.
Mr. T. WILSON
I think the word "shall" makes the meaning of the Bill a great deal clearer than "may," and that is a good argument for accepting it. In the Acts of Parliament passed in the last few years the word " shall" appears oftener than "may," and if "shall" is good in war legislation, when it is compelling men to do things which perhaps they do not want to do I do not see why we should not have "shall" inserted in this Clause. It is far and away a better word than "may," because if "may" remains in the Bill the Board of Agriculture may pay compensation to someone else who is not a labourer. It does not say it shall not be paid, but it may be paid to the labourer. If "may" is taken out and " shall" put in it makes it quite clear that the compensation shall be paid to the labourer who is thrown out of employment. I agree that there will not be very many labourers who will become unemployed owing to the passing of the Act, and that being so I do not think we need be afraid of inserting "shall." I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment without forcing the Committee to a Division. I feel quite certain that if we have a Division the majority of the Members present will vote in favour of inserting the word "shall" in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman will not lose anything by it.
§ Mr. ACLAND
My object was to prevent the Committee from doing what, with great respect, I thought was a stupid thing. If they really want to do it I do not see any objection. I only want to make it perfectly clear that it can make no difference whatever to any single labourer under the Bill. You leave entirely open to the Board the compensation which they think just. It makes no difference at all. In so far as this is a modification and a meaningless modification, as it seems to 1153 me, I think it is an unwise thing to do; but if the Committee wish it I have no objection to it.
§ The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Whitley)
Do I understand that the Amendment is to be accepted?
§ Mr. ACLAND
Yes.
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. |
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY
(who was very indistinctly heard), in rising to move the Address of which he had given notice respecting the supposed project for the transference of Savoy and Nice from Sar- 574 dinia to France, said that their Lordships would hardly be surprised that he should revert so soon to the very important subject which he brought under their consideration on a former evening. In order to account for his so doing he must, in the first place, recur to the emphatic statement of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville), that Her Majesty's Government had conveyed to the Government of France in firm but temperate language the objections which they entertained to the plan which was supposed to be under consideration for the annexation of Savoy and Nice to the French empire. But with a view clearly to ascertain the actual position of the affair it was important that we should be informed when this declaration had been conveyed, and whether anything had occurred since to mitigate the satisfaction which Her Majesty's Government had derived from the first reception of their objections, He was surprised, however, to find the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in "another place" had given a somewhat confused account as to the date of this action of the British Government. Lord John Russell was reported to have said the other day,.Your Lordships will perceive that allusion here is made to two distinct communications with the French Government. The first not being satisfactory as not being explicit. In another report the noble Lord is stated to have said, "Count Walewski not being satisfactory on the point of territorial limits." The two communications appeared both to have taken place in the month of July, but the second sometime after the first. In reading this statement, he (the Marquess of Normanby) was impressed by the belief that he had heard something of the same 575 kind before. He did not, however, pursue the inquiry further until he saw it stated in a semi-official French print that Lord John Russell must have been inaccurate as to the time when and the circumstances under which such an assurance was given. He therefore turned to the invaluable pages of Hansard, and found that Lord John Russell, after reading a telegram on the 12th of July announcing the peace, said—I may state further, because there has been a rumour for some weeks past that whenever peace came to be signed, and Lombardy should be ceded to Sardinia, France would ask, as compensation for her expenses in the war, to have Savoy ceded to her. That I am happy to be able to inform the House that the Emperor of the French has made no demand of that kind, and that there is every reason to suppose that he does not intend to make any addition whatever to the territory of France. This is most gratifying, because any addition to the territory of France, however insignificant, following on the war, could not fail to rouse the suspicions and jealousies of Europe."—[3 Hansard, cliv. 1052.]Now this is so far inconsistent with the more recent statement that it appears both communications must have taken place before the 12th of July, as the noble Lord could not on that day have alluded to the first as "gratifying," which he has since then termed not sufficiently explicit to be satisfactory. Of course every Minister was liable to mistakes in points of detail, but this quotation became of importance in the face of the statement in the French semiofficial newspaper, that Lord John Russell was in error as to the time when this assurance was given and the circumstances attending it. He (the Marquess of Normanby) did not wish to press this further, except to suggest that, believing thoroughly the assurance of his noble Friend opposite (Earl Granville), he thought it important for their Lordships to join him in co-operating with the Government in-this matter in the line which they had traced out. Wishing to carry their Lordships with him as much as possible in his present Motion, he had avoided introducing into it, and would endeavour to avoid the mention, of anything which might cast blame upon the Government. There were people, he knew, who, now that this question had become a matter of general conversation and discussion throughout Europe, wished that the statement made last July should he repeated; there might be reasons why the Government should decline to make any such statement; but, at any rate, the question had assumed a much more serious shape since last July. In alluding 576 to what appeared in the newspapers respecting it, it was necessary to remind their Lordships of the system on which the present French Government was carried with reference to the press. On the one hand, he felt quite sure that upon such a subject as this the publication of any thing which might by possibility displease the Emperor was discouraged; and they also knew that not one word which was absolutely displeasing to His Majesty was allowed to appear at all. It was not surprising, therefore, if some serious interpretation were put upon the fact that during the last few days the Government of Piedmont had been directly lectured in the French press for daring to allow their local officers to interfere in any matter with what the writer was pleased to call "the popular demonstrations in Savoy." "We" regard this conduct, it was said, as intolerable. Now, who was meant by the "we" here employed? Did not everybody know that in that plurality the head of the Government in France must be included? Would anybody else dare to speak in his august name? Remembering this, he (the Marquess of Normanby) owned that he was not much consoled by what had been put forward by the publishing secretary of the French Government, M. Grandguillot. In an article published in the Constitutionnel this gentleman stated that this question of annexation arose from the development of public opinion, founded on the inexorable logic of facts. Now, when the development of public opinion was introduced in connection with the ruler of 600,000 or 700,000 armed men, it was sufficiently formidable. In the same way the logic of facts became formidable too, and not the less so because it was perfectly unintelligible. So many contradictions were to be met with at every stage of this question that he was almost afraid to repeat what every one assured him was beyond the possibility of doubt. Nobody upon the Continent would believe that there was no treaty, no engagement, no compact between the Emperor of the French and the person acting on behalf of the King of Sardinia; and yet he (the Marquess of Normanby) owned that he could not put implicit faith in that general belief, because he found the following in a letter written before the commencement of the war by the very acute diplomatist who represented this country in Paris. Writing to the Earl of Malmesbury on the 18th of March, Lord Cowley says— 577The impression left upon my mind after a lengthened conversation is, that the Emperor is desirous of maintaining peace; that His Majesty is not ready for war, which is, perhaps, the best proof of his pacific intentions; that he has no other engagement with Sardinia than to go to her assistance if she is attacked by Austria; that he does not contemplate any modifications of the treaties of 1815.Now, as this was a statement made by the Emperor to Lord Cowley, far be it from him (the Marquess of Normanby) to contradict anything His Majesty had said. He would suggest, however, that the Emperor would give much more satisfaction to his faithful Ally on this side of the water if he would state positively, through one of those channels of which the French Government was wont to avail itself, that neither before nor since the war had there been any engagements of the kind referred to. In considering the chances of success in effecting this annexation, much, of course, depended upon the actual state of public opinion throughout Savoy and Nice at this moment. He had taken pains to arrive at some conclusion on this point, but owned that he had been unable to do so satisfactorily to himself. At the same time there were some facts that were obvious to everybody. For instance, a great change had occurred since 1848 in the feelings of the people of Savoy towards the King of Sardinia. At that time any proposal to sever their allegiance met with the spontaneous resistance of a united people. They were frugal in their habits; they were devoted to an ancient dynasty; they were very observant of all their religious duties, and the precepts of Christianity with them, as much as with any other people in the world, were the rule of their daily lives. But a great change had since occurred there. In the first place, the excessive taxation imposed upon a poor though frugal people had produced much discontent; then, a peasantry attached beyond all others to their birthplace had been transported across the Alps to fight in a war in which they had no interest; the gentry had been drawn away from those local duties which they were in the habit of discharging in perfect agreement and concord with the peasantry to listen to debates in a language which they did not understand. These were practical grievances which might naturally have modified the loyalty existing up to the time he had mentioned, and if any demonstrations had occurred in favour of annexation with France during the municipal elections at Chambery or on any 578 other occasion, those who took part in them were probably inclined to encounter unknown and therefore unfelt evils, rather than endure the positive grievances of which they now complained. That this was so might be inferred from the circumstance that no adverse demonstration had been noticed, and from the manner in which the municipal elections at Chambery had been conducted, and commented upon by the semi-official French press. There had appeared in the newspapers a letter from a remarkable person, a member of the Sardinian Chambers (the Marquess Costa and Beauregard), who was well acquainted with the people of Savoy, well known as one of the leaders of what was called the Conservative party, and most decidedly opposed to the war. This gentleman stated in answer to the imputation—for so he called it—that he had been to France as part of a deputation in favour of the annexation of Savoy to that country, that he felt for the grievances which his country had to complain of against the present Government of Piedmont, but that he firmly maintained the allegiance which his fathers had ever owed to the King of Sardinia. That also was the sentiment of the great majority of the Conservative party of Savoy; and he (the Marquess of Normanby) hoped that, upon every account, the King of Sardinia would adhere with fidelity to those who were so devoted to him and his House, that he would extend to them that justice which he himself expected from the Emperor of the French, and that in the case of any country with which he might be temporarily connected, the popular vote would be regarded as the expression of the popular will, and that he would take that there, as in Savoy, it should be perfectly free and unbiassed, independent of any attempt at foreign control, including his own. This question was greatly complicated by the present unsettled state of all the other communities of Italy; and in a strategical point of view the annexation of Savoy to France would be most objectionable even for the safety of Sardinia itself. Could it be possible in such an event for a King of Sardinia, within forty miles of the French frontier, open and undefended, to preserve himself in Turin? He would have at once to transfer his capital to Milan; and their Lordships would at once see that it would not be for his advantage to commence his defence on what had been hitherto called the Austrian side of the Ticino. But where, except in 579 Piedmont, could the King of Sardinia look for that loyal attachment which would he his best support against foreign attack. Already, even in Milan, things were in a most alarming state. Robberies, accompanied by assassination, were nightly committed there; the garrison had been under arms and consigned to their barracks on two or three occasions, and exactly the same annoyances which used to be applied by the ladies of Milan to the Austrian officers were now applied to the Piedmontese officers, and that dissatisfaction on the part of Lombardy with the union of the Provinces was fast assuming the proportions it acquired in 1848. What was the cause of this? The cause was that the people had experienced no benefit from their annexation, but, on the contrary, were greatly aggrieved by the excessive taxation, which was 15 per cent more than during the Austrian rule. The French newspapers had very much alluded to what they represented to be the grateful feeling of the people of Savoy to France; but what happened in 1796, after four years of French occupation? There had then as now been an alliance between France and Sardinia against Austria. General Bonaparte, having flattered Sardinia into making common cause with him, returned to France and left the King to his fate; what that fate was to be, the following proclamation by the French Genera] at Turin would show:—The French Government, to facilitate peace and the triumph of the great army, was obliged provisionally to consider Kings as the representatives of their subjects. This supposition was necessary to carry on negotiations, but is now evidently circumscribed and limited. To protect the feeble is one mode of annihilating them. The alliance of the King of Sardinia with the French Republic was, in fact, the moral abdication of her sovereignty.Immediately afterwards the citadal of Turin was seized and occupied by French troops, and in a few months the ancient head of the house of Savoy sought refuge in the Island of Sardinia, where he was protected by an English fleet. The allegation of the old sympathies of Savoy for France was most absurd; but with respect to Nice there was not even one solitary pretence for this rumoured act of intended spoliation. He would not at that moment stop to inquire into the importance to cither country of the noble harbour of Villafranca, one of the finest in the Mediterranean, He was not one of those who were not anxious to do complete 580 justice to the Emperor of the French. He was anxious that we should continue on the best possible terms with France. Nothing could be further from his mind than a desire to provoke a difference of any kind; but when questions were raised which directly affected the balance of power in Europe, we ought to understand to what extent the parties to the treaties which regulated the present settlement of Europe would agree to any modification of them. Even at the time of the revolution in France, when the popular impulse was so great, the French Government declared that, however much they disapproved the treaties of 1815, they were determined to adopt them as accomplished facts, not to be altered without the common consent of all the Powers. If such was the feeling in France in 1848, we had some reason to hope that at least an equal regard for the obligation of treaties would be evinced by one whom he should be glad to call our intimate and loyal Ally. He might be permitted, in conclusion, to say a word on the question of nationality. It behoved every settled Government in Europe to withhold its assent from the new and dangerous doctrine of the right of a people, on the ground of nationality, to transfer their allegiance from one Sovereign to another. He hoped, at all events, that so elastic a doctrine—a doctrine which threatened the security of all Governments—would receive no encouragement from their Lordships, or from those intrusted with the administration of our public affairs. Having, he trusted, clearly shown that his object was not to make an attack upon the Government, but rather to afford them an opportunity of stating those views upon the subject of the annexation of Savoy which he was bound to say they had very early if not very forcibly expressed, and leaving the matter to be dealt with by their Lordships in whatever manner they might deem consistent with their duty, he begged to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty,To represent to Her Majesty that this House has been informed that Her Majesty's Government has made known to the Government of Franco the Objections entertained by Her Majesty's Government to the Annexation of Savoy and Nice, which has been reported to be in contemplation.To thank Her Majesty for having conveyed that Opinion to the Government of France, and to pray that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct Her Government to use their best Endeavours to avert the Transfer of the above named territories to the French Empire.
§ EARL GRANVILLE
My Lords, the noble Marquess at the commencement of his speech seemed to complain of the answer which I gave to his question last week on the subject of Savoy. That answer was perfectly correct, and, although my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs gave some further explanations on a subsequent occasion in the other House, his statement was not at variance with, though going rather beyond, the answer which I returned in the first instance to the noble Marquess. You are aware from what has appeared in the printed despatches, that during the Administration of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) some intelligence had been received respecting a treaty between France and Sardinia which contained a clause affecting Savoy. Lord Cowley was requested by the Earl of Malmesbury to ascertain whether or not the Report which had reached our Government was accurate, and he was assured by Count Walewski that no treaty between France and Sardinia was in existence, though it might be considered necessary to make an offensive and defensive one. Count Walewski made no allusion to the question of territorial aggrandizement, and the subject was dropped. I stated last week the steps which the present Government had taken on this subject last year, and may state to you Lordships that they have continued making friendly communications to the Governments of France and Sardinia with respect to the Report of a proposed annexation of Savoy to the French Empire. We have been told by the Imperial Government that there is no question at present of the annexation of Savoy; that one of a great many points discussed before the war was the annexation of Savoy, under certain contingencies; but those contingencies not having occurred, there is at this moment no question of annexation. The French Government adds, at the same time, that, in the event of Sardinia, with the addition of Lombardy and other provinces, becoming a powerful Italian State, they will feel themselves at liberty to consider for their own security, what conditions they should attach to the sanction they might give to such an arrangement. From Turin the answer we have received is, that there is no engagement whatever between France and Sardinia respecting the annexation of Savoy; that it is not the intention of the King of Sardinia to yield, sell, or exchange Savoy; that if the Savoyards have griev- 582 ances to allege, they possess the constitutional right of petitioning the Sardinian Parliament; that their petitions will be respectfully considered, and their just complaints will be removed by appropriate legislative measures sanctioned by the Crown. I imagine every one of your Lordships must admit that it is undoubtedly the duty of the Government of this country, on all judicious occasions, to speak to other Governments in a perfectly open manner upon all subjects which concern its interests. Even if this were not so, there arc at this moment circumstances arising from the coincidence of our policy upon the Italian question, and from the prospect which now opens of extending the commercial intercourse between this country and France, under the more liberal commercial policy now inaugurated by the Emperor of the French, which would greatly facilitate any friendly representations we might make to either of the parties on this subject. What would render them still more easy in regard to this question of Savoy is, that England, so far as she is directly concerned, has no interest in the matter of the annexation, seeing that it does not make any great difference to this country, as England, whether or not France acquires upon her southern frontier territory giving her certain strategical advantages. But indirectly she has, with all other Powers, an interest in the question; and what is of paramount interest to England is the interests of Europe as a whole. In this sense it is her interest to do everything she can to promote peace, to maintain the balance of power, and to prevent the commission of acts by any nation, particularly by any of the great Powers, which may create alarm and shake the public confidence in the maintenance of peace. Therefore I think it would have been most unfriendly of Her Majesty's Government if they had not laid before that of France all the objections which, in an European sense, would arise to the aggrandisement of the French territory which was involved in the supposed scheme. It is hardly necessary to dwell upon those objections to your Lordships. No doubt France, occupying so magnificent a geographical position as she does, and having so gallant a people, who have so frequently and so recently shown in so conspicuous a manner how able they are to defend themselves upon all occasions, cannot pretend to be jealous of a country like Piedmont, 583 even though her power should be increased by an accession of territory and subjects in Italy. On the other hand, there can be no question that the extension of the frontier of France to the Alps would very much alter the arrangements for the preservation of the balance of European power. If France goes to the Alps now there is no good reason why she should not at a subsequent period go to the Rhine. Were this not so, however, it is clear that the annexation of Savoy to France would give rise to great European difficulty. The arguments of the noble Marquess were perfectly consistent upon this point, and no doubt therefore any such attempt would excite in the mind of Europe generally deep interest, and well-grounded alarm. The enemies of the Emperor of the French at the commencement of the late war endeavoured to make it appear that he had undertaken that war from motives of personal ambition and territorial aggrandisement; and I have no doubt your Lordships well remember the manner in which the Emperor disclaimed the imputation. Among the most noble words ever uttered by a great Sovereign at the head of a victorious army were those used by the Emperor of the French at Milan, when he told the Italians that his and their enemies had endeavoured to spread the belief, that he had undertaken the war for the aggrandizement of France and not for their advantage; that, although there might be some persons who were ignorant of the public opinion of Europe, he was not one of them, and that moral influence was of more advantage to a great nation than were barren conquests, and he declared that any alteration of the territorial arrangements of France as settled by the Treaty of Vienna, would be dangerous to the peace of Europe. These were noble words; and for the Emperor now to place it in the power of those enemies, by any act of his to represent his policy as contrary to that declaration would obviously he most injurious to his reputation, and most prejudicial to his interests. I will not trouble your Lordships with any reference to what the noble Marquess has said about the duty of the British Government to make friendly representations to the Government of France on this subject, because what they have done is a sufficient confirmation. In our communications with the French Government we have gone into the question more fully than it is necessary to discuss it to your Lordships, and we have done so in the confidence that our 584 observations would be received with a feeling as friendly as that by which they were dictated. I beg your Lordships clearly to understand that our policy is not that of nationalities, alluded to by the noble Marquess, nor is it our policy to separate ourselves from other European Powers. Upon the Italian question we are at this moment in direct and friendly communication with France, Sardinia, and Austria, and we shall be happy to communicate with any other nations who feel an interest in the settlement of that question as affecting either Italy or Europe. The policy of the British Government is not to advocate or insist upon any particular mode of carving out Italy; we do not say that the central Provinces must be joined to Sardinia; we do not assert that there may not be a central Italian kingdom. If the great majority of the people of Tuscany are in favour of the Grand Dukes, let them show and assert their opinions, and it will not be for England to object to the restoration of their old sovereigns. Our simple policy—that which we have been urging upon other Powers, and in regard to which we have been met very cordially by France, and as cordially as we could expect by Austria—is to avoid any armed interference in the affairs of the Peninsula, and to secure that the Italians shall be left to themselves to judge what is good for themselves, and in what mode their ideas of liberty and independence can best be carried out. This Motion itself has been framed in very courteous terms, and, as stated by the noble Marquess, is intended to co-operate with and strengthen Her Majesty's Government. I am of opinion that it would not have that effect. Your Lordships are perfectly well aware that at this moment the enemies to the present commercial policy of France are trying to raise a cry that the religion and commerce of that country are being sacrificed to English interests, and they would probably make use of the agreeing to such an Address as this as a means of exciting an anti-English feeling, in order to strengthen them in their opposition; and under these circumstances I do not think that it would assist Her Majesty's Government that the Motion made by the noble Marquis, who has to-night spoken of the Emperor with great respect, but who at the same time holds very peculiar and very strong opinions upon continental politics, should be forced upon them; especially when they declare their intention upon all suitable occasions to give their 585 advice and exert their influence to prevent that which the noble Marquess, in common with all your Lordships, deprecates. I quite acquit the noble Marquess of having intended that the Government or your Lordships should pledge themselves to war or eventualities of any description in resisting the alleged scheme. But, even in its more limited sense, inasmuch as the result would surely he to cause misrepresentation in France as to their intentions, I think the Motion would rather weaken than strengthen the Government, and therefore I hope that the noble Marquess will not think it necessary to press it to a division.
§ EARL GREY
My Lords, I think that the House is much obliged to the noble Marquess for bringing this subject forward. It seems to me to be impossible to overestimate its importance, and I confess that I should have heard with great pleasure a different conclusion to the speech of my noble Friend who has just sat down. I should like to have heard him state that Her Majesty's Government would agree to the Address proposed. The statement which he has just made affords the clearest proof of the necessity for this Motion; because I think your Lordships will agree with me that it is difficult to conceive anything more alarming than what has been communicated to us by my noble Friend. Nothing can well be more unsatisfactory than that which he describes to have been the language of the French Government to our own on this subject, coupled with that which has been used in the semiofficial newspapers of France. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive, when we consider that language, that the scheme of the annexation of Savoy to France has not gone further than we, till lately, have believed. That annexation would be so pregnant with evil to this country and to Europe that it becomes Her Majesty's Government to use their best endeavours to avert it. I quite agree with my noble Friend that, as far as we are at present informed of the facts, no man in this House can wish that war should be resorted to to prevent such an arrangement from being effected; if unhappily it should have been agreed upon by the two parties most directly interested in it. But there is a great deal short of war which may be done by a nation to prevent the adoption of measures which are injurious to its interests and to those of the world; and I can conceive no case which calls for more energetic remonstrance on the part of Her Majesty's Government than the annexation which is 586 supposed to be in contemplation. I do not pretend to say that the annexation of Savoy to France would materially alter the balance of power in Europe. Whatever may be the obvious objections to this extension of the frontiers of France, still, when we look at what the power of that great empire is at present, I cannot think that the addition of Savoy of itself would throw so great an additional weight into the scale as to be of any very serious importance. Nor do I believe that the honour of this country is involved in preventing the arrangement if the two parties more immediately interested should agree to it. But, although it may not in its direct consequences be so injurious as to induce this country to resist it by an appeal to force, still I think, if we look at the subject closely, we shall be convinced that few events would be more injurious both to this country and to Europe than the proposed annexation; as well from its indirect consequences as from the principle which it would tend to establish if it were to be carried into effect on the grounds that have been put forward in support of it. My Lords, in considering this question we cannot lose sight of the reasons that have been urged in its favour by the journals in France, which have an importance that does not usually belong to newspapers, owing to the countenance they receive from the Imperial Government of France. Now, what are those reasons? My noble Friend has already referred to that most extraordinary article which appeared in the Patrie a few days ago, and which I venture to say must have astounded every one of your Lordships who read it. That article states that two measures cannot be applied to Savoy and to Italy; and that it is intolerable that the Government of Sardinia should interfere with the manifestation of the wishes of the Savoyards. I think that every one of your Lordships concurs in the principle that no nation ought to he compelled by foreign force to submit to a Government to which it is averse. The passage in the Queen's Speech, in which that principle was enunciated with regard to Italy, received, I believe, the unanimous approval of your Lordships. But, my Lords, it would indeed be to push that principle to a new and somewhat dangerous length if it is to be assumed, not only that a nation which is de facto in the enjoyment of self-government is not to be coerced by the arms of a foreign Power to change its Government, hut that you are to go beyond 587 that plain and simple rule, and to say that even where a settled and long-established Government exists—where a people are living contentedly and peaceably under the rulers who have for centuries reigned over them, a few agitators are to be permitted to declare that the opinion of the country is the other way; that it wishes to shake off the authority to which it is by law subject; and that it is intolerable in the Government to adopt any means of counteracting the efforts of those who seek to subvert it. Why, if this rule of international right and wrong is to be recognized, we must be supposed to have acted most unwarrantably in the year 1848, when we would not suffer certain persons to put the question to the people of Ireland whether or not that country should continue to form a part of the British Empire. Is it to be held as an indication that the people of Savoy are hostile to the existing rule, that a few individuals get up demonstrations against the Government; and is it to be maintained that the Government, instead of putting these persons down by the strong hand, must allow them to have their own way, and then have the question of the continuance of the existing authority submitted to the vote? I venture to say, if that principle is to be established, that no Government in Europe is safe for a day. Apply that principle to France itself? How would the present Emperor receive the proposal that it should be again submitted to the universal vote of the people of France whether they would have an Empire, a Red Republic, or an Orleanist, or a Legitimist dynasty? I am sure that anybody putting forward such a proposal against the settled Government in France would meet with very prompt repression. Further, we are told that the Alps are the natural boundary of France, and that the Savoyards are united to the French people by a community of language. Do these pleas alter the case or diminish the danger? My Lords, we cannot help seeing whither such principles as those lead. Do not the majority of the people of Belgium speak French as well as the inhabitants of Savoy? If such grounds as these are to be assigned for the desire of unjust territorial acquisition on the part of France, what security has Europe that other aggressions of the same kind may not be attempted? It appears to me, therefore, that the proposal for joining Savoy to France, under present circumstances, is one which this country has a right to view with the greatest apprehension 588 and alarm, and I certainly should have hoped that this Mouse might be induced to agree, without a division, to the Address which the noble Marquess has moved. I am the last person to suggest that the Motion should be pressed contrary to the desire of Her Majesty's Government. I am persuaded that if it were so pressed, even though it were carried, it would do more harm than good; and for this simple reason—that it would make it appear that there exists a difference of opinion in your Lordships' House, when I believe no such difference really exists. I believe we are all united in condemning and reprobating the scheme which is supposed to be in agitation. If, therefore, we were to come to a division on the question—whichever way it ended—it would make it appear that a very considerable number of your Lordships dissented from what I think is our unanimous opinion. But it would be a very different matter if Her Majesty's Government could be induced to concur in this Motion. I cannot help feeling that at this moment a unanimous expression of the sentiments of this House would have great influence on the opinion of France and of the world. Powerful as France may be, I do not believe that she would despise such a manifestation of opinion, backed as it would be by the views of every other country in Europe. I would therefore earnestly entreat my noble Friend who spoke last (Earl Granville) seriously to consider this subject. I would especially ask him what motive he can have for resisting this Motion. My noble Friend who brought it forward stated most distinctly that he did so without in any way implying the most distant censure on Her Majesty's Government. On the contrary, his first words were those of thanks to the Government for the course which they have taken. The only object of the Motion is to strengthen their hands in pursuing the line of policy which, if I understood my noble Friend aright, it is their intention, of their own accord, to follow. The single objection which, as I gathered from my noble Friend, they have to this Motion, is the fear that it might be misinterpreted in France. My Lords, I cannot believe that there is any ground for such a fear; I cannot suppose that the Emperor of the French would see anything unfriendly towards himself in our expressing our opinion against the measure which he is supposed to contemplate. On the contrary, I think if the opinion of this House and the country were placed before the Emperor in language 589 firm, and at the same time amicable, it would be calculated to produce considerable effect—because, it must surely be the interest of the Emperor to attend to our remonstrances. What, let mo ask, can France gain by this comparatively insignificant addition to her territory to compensate her for the loss of confidence and the loss of character which such a measure must entail? My noble Friend has already adverted to the commercial treaty recently signed between this country and France. We are told that the Emperor of the French is about to adopt a liberal commercial policy, in which this treaty is the first step. But, can a liberal commercial policy produce its proper fruits unless there is commercial and political confidence in the continuance of peace? Confidence is the very breath of life by which trade and industry are maintained; and how can that confidence in the permanence of peace exist for a day in Europe if this annexation of Savoy to France is to be carried into effect, in a manner, and upon principles which hold out to all Europe the prospect of further and indefinite changes that cannot possibly be accomplished without provoking all the horrors of war? I say that this annexation would produce a shock to confidence, which in France and in Europe would be felt by trade and industry for years to come. And has not the Emperor himself the deepest interest (if he has a due concern for his own character) in abstaining from carrying this project into effect? We all know that statements have been made in the newspapers that this annexation is only the execution of a design long entertained though studiously concealed. We know that it has been asserted—I trust falsely—that this would be merely the carrying into effect of a secret stipulation entered into between Sardinia and France some considerable time before the breaking out of the late war, by which Sardinia was to be put in possession of a great increase of territory in Italy, in return for which France was to obtain Savoy and Nice. Now, my Lords, if that were true—and I trust most sincerely that it is not—it would be impossible to find terms sufficiently strong to describe the iniquity and the immorality of the two parties concerned. When we remember the language that was used in France before the breaking out of the war, the solemn protestations of her desire, up to the last moment, to preserve peace, her asseverations, even after the war had made 590 some progress, that she had no selfish object in view, and had no intention of promoting her territorial aggrandisement, can we believe that all these solemn asseverations were made at the same time that there existed a private stipulation for dividing the prey, entered into before the quarrel was picked, through which the booty was to be obtained? If such a compact were entered into between France and Sardinia, I say it would be difficult to find in the annals of the world a case of more flagrant iniquity. I hope these things are not true. They have seemed to me so bad that I have tried as much as possible to reject the belief that such things can really be true. I still do so; but I cannot deny that those who affirm them are able to appeal to strong circumstantial evidence in favour of their assertions. I hope that, in spite of appearances, the fact is not as stated; but if, in addition to the circumstantial evidence we already have in support of these allegations, we should have the additional pregnant fact that this design of joining Savoy to France is carried into effect, it will be impossible, however anxious we may be to do so, longer to retain our incredulity. If the Emperor of the French has a due regard to his own honour and character, he will be grateful if this country should come forward in a calm and friendly spirit to urge him to abstain from that, which I cannot describe otherwise than as a great crime against the civilized world. My Lords, I have taken the first opportunity that presented itself to press upon my noble Friends on the Government bench my sense of the great importance of this question. I have done so from no hostile feeling, and with an earnest desire to avoid any remark of an invidious character on their conduct in relation to this matter; but with all my desire to avoid even an approach to censure, I am compelled to express my regret that my noble Friend and Her Majesty's Government have omitted some clearer expression of the opinion I am convinced they must entertain on this subject. It must have struck all your Lordships who take a view similar to my own as to the importance of this question of the proposed annexation, that the language of my noble Friend and that of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as reported to have been used by him in "another place," have been singularly mild to say the least, considering the gravity of the case. I think it is specially impor- 591 tant that Her Majesty's Government should at this moment give cordial expression to what I believe are the opinions of every Englishman on this subject. My noble Friend adverted to the commercial treaty with France. Now, I think that before that treaty was signed—before Her Majesty's Government consented to give to the Government of France so signal a mark of their friendship and good will—they ought to have required from the French Emperor, in some authentic and formal shape, a distinct disavowal of his entertaining any such designs with regard to Savoy as have been imputed to him. I deeply regret that the treaty was signed without having some such disavowal as that; but then the omission makes it the more important that we should now take some measures to obtain it; and, if in accordance with the unanimous vote of this House, and I hope of the other House of Parliament also, Her Majesty's Government should even now ask for such a disavowal, I am persuaded that it will not he withheld. I do not ask your Lordships to agree to the Motion if my noble Friend opposes it, but I hope that my noble Friend himself will see the propriety of adopting it.
§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
My Lords, I have all along shared in the deep and anxious feeling entertained by the whole people of this country in favour of Italian liberty, and in the wish entertained by all parties that the Italians should rise to everything that is honourable, free, and great; but I fear that if the matter now under discussion be allowed to find its consummation in the way in which it is said to be desired by France, we shall see the great question of Italian liberty mixed up with elements that must hereafter be productive of the greatest mischief to Europe, and that will cast a deep and indelible stain both upon the Emperor of the French and the King of Sardinia. I gathered from my noble Friend that this matter is not yet consummated—is still under consideration, and that, therefore, there is still time for this and the other House of Parliament, and the whole people of England, to declare their unanimous and decided opinion regarding it. I judge that the Emperor of the French is still endeavouring to carry out this object, and that the Sardinian Government are bringing forward as many arguments and as much influence as they can to prevent it. If so, now is the time to declare our opinion, and to do what we can to obtain 592 justice for the weaker side in this contest. There can be no doubt that a great stain will be inflicted on all those engaged in this transaction should it be carried into effect. Such a result I should deeply regret. I am anxious for the honour of the French Emperor; but if he persist in this demand for the annexation of Savoy, how will he reconcile it with the words he uttered at Milan—those words with which he endeavoured to conciliate the opinions of Europe—and which I agreed with my noble Friend (Earl Granville) are among the most noble words that ever fell from the lips of man. We have been told that France goes to war for an idea; but in this case the abstract and sublime have been brought down to something that is concrete and commercial. Instead of standing by a mere idea, the French Emperor requires additional territory and additional influence, and the rights and interests of nations are merged in dynastic enterprises. Sardinia cannot come out unscathed from such a project unless she resist the attempt to the full extent of her moral power—and I will not hesitate to say to the full extent of her physical power also. That she should do rather than submit to the degradation. And even Italy herself will be in some measure to blame, because she will secure advantages to herself at the expense of the hereditary rights of another people. Indeed the elements of mischief in this matter are both abundant and dangerous. Are we to see French influence substituted for that of Austria in Italy? It is true that French influence would be exercised in a more careful, delicate, and astute manner than that of Austria—no doubt the policy of France would be more artful; but the dominion will be the same, and the independence of Italy will be placed in equal jeopardy. Then, are we to see the frontier of France advance until it comes in contact with the republic of Geneva? Does not this scheme affect the independence of Switzerland? Are we to believe that the acquisition of Savoy and Nice, and the beautiful port of Villafranca is not an important step towards realizing the French policy of turning the Mediterranean into a French lake? Then, coincident with this state of things, there is the revival of the wild scheme of the Suez Canal, which may be, commercially, the most absurd thing ever propounded, but considered politically has a very different meaning. There would be a French settlement established, and one 593 more French port acquired on that side of the Mediterranean. But, my Lords, I look with far more apprehension on this new principle which is now to be laid down for the government of nations. We have heard much about natural boundaries, and have been told that Savoy has been claimed because rightly it belongs to France; but we are now, according to the new doctrine which has been propounded, to claim as a right conterminous nations speaking the same language. In that case the smaller nation speaking the language of the greater must invariably be absorbed, though not perhaps at first by open and direct violence, but rather by diplomatic trickery. I do not hesitate to say that if this principle is to be recognized and practically adopted in any single instance, all Europe, to use a common but significant expression, will be submitting to one of the greatest humbugs ever perpetrated on mankind. We are told that at a recent public meeting held at Chambery, a strong opinion was expressed in favour of annexation. But let me remind your Lordships that it is very possible for great personages to coerce priests in one country, and to coax them in another. But there has been another meeting at Chambery, at which a diametrically opposite feeling was expressed. Who is to decide? It is suggested in the French press that even the King of Sardinia is not to be at liberty to employ his own agents in the maintenance of his own and his people's rights. The case of Central Italy is not analogous. There we have the plain fact before us that the country is without a ruler. And the people of Central Italy have a perfect right to declare under what governor they will serve. But is that the case with the Savoyards? Have the Savoyards thrown off their allegiance to their rightful Sovereign? Are they in open rebellion? No. Their country is an integral part of the kingdom of Sardinia, and only by the whole mass of the people of Sardinia can the question be decided, whether Savoy is, or is not to be separated from the parent State. But, observe what a future is being opened up under this new policy! Take the case of Geneva. If this new principle be good, that conterminous nations speaking the same language are to be annexed to the greater nation, provided only there be an expression of sympathy on the part of the people, can any person who has lately been in Geneva doubt that an expression of sympathy might with great 594 facility be got up there in favour of annexation with France? If this principle he good, see how essily the whole system of Europe may be broken up. I want to know, for instance; why Germany should not demand the Baltic provinces from Russia; and why Russia—who, as we well know, is not reluctant to put such principles in motion—should be hindred from claiming the Slavonic provinces of Austria. Once let such a principle be recognized, and everything will be broken up; all things will be at sea; and all to gratify the ambition and the policy of one man, who thinks he has new schemes to propound, but whoso object is to break up the whole European system established on the treaties of 1815. But a new inducement has been held out by the French Government to induce Sardinia to consent to this proposition. We are told that the French Government will be content with annexing part and surrendering part to the Swiss Republic. Is this to be done without the consent of the people? Is such a proposition to be entertained in the present day? Is it not a revival of the wild principles that led to the partition of Poland, from the effects of which the nations of Europe are still writhing? If annexation is to take place—which God forbid!—let Savoy be annexed bodily to the Republic of Switzerland—the country that has the deepest interest in the peace of Europe, in the maintenance of treaties, and in the liberty of all nations. But, God forbid that anything of the kind should take place. I believe that nothing could be more prejudicial to the state of Europe, or more disastrous to the future peace of the world and the progress of civilization. These are the general and detailed arguments against such a measure; but it rests on great and broad principles that far exceed in importance any arguments founded on details which can be urged against it. To the latest hour of my life I will protest—and in doing so I am sure I speak the sentiments of the great mass of my countrymen—against handing over a nation that enjoys free institutions to a Government under a despotic dynasty; and against handing over a free people bound hand and foot to a country where they can enjoy no free expression of opinion, or, if guaranteed that expression of opinion, can exercise no power in giving it practical effect. I protest against a country where religious liberty is proclaimed, being handed over to a nation where religious liberty, if proclaimed, is often violated; and I protest also against 595 the policy of treating nations like flocks of sheep, and making them, regardless of their consent, the subjects of barter and exchange. We, in this country, have long protested against the traffic in human flesh. I equally protest against any traffic in human or national rights. I implore the Government, in the name of all the great principles cherished by the people of England, to use every effort in their power to place before the Emperor of the French the fearful consequences of such a measure as this—to appeal to his judgment, to his sagacity, and to his better feelings, and I doubt not that, if they do so, he will be brought to a wise conclusion. But, be that as it may, let the Government go forth, representing the deep sense of the people of this country, acting on the convictions of justice and the rights of nations, and I doubt not that then we shall succeed in the object we now have in view, and beat back, by the unanimous voice of the people of England, the consummation of this most pernicious and disgraceful project.
§ THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE
—I shall not, for more than a few moments, stand between the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby, who rose at the same time) and your Lordships. I do not rise for the purpose of interfering with the future progress of this discussion, but chiefly to implore your Lordships not to be led away by the tone which my noble Friend has just imparted to the debate. We are accustomed frequently to hear honest and honourable sentiments fall from the noble Earl expressed in very fervid language. He is accustomed to deal in a similar manner with domestic topics, in which the mischief done, if any, can be comparatively small compared with that which may arise from such language upon a question like that now before your Lordships. I cannot help thinking that the tendency of my noble Friend's language, and the tone he has given to this debate, are calculated to frustrate the object which we all have in view. Hoping that these questions are likely to receive a peaceful solution, I deprecate such expressions as he has used in reference to some of the countries concerned. Even were it justifiable, it is not dignified; but I appeal to him whether he was justified in using one phrase—namely, that in which he called upon Sardinia to oppose not merely with her moral influence, but with her physical power, the measure now under discussion. I apprehend that if such language coming from a Member of your 596 Lordships' House, is adopted by the House, it will amount to a declaration that your Lordships would approve of resort to war; and I say it would not be just or honourable to call on Sardinia to enter on a war with this object unless we were fully prepared, under all conditions and under all circumstances, to assist her. My noble Friend followed two noble Lords who have spoken upon this question in a different tone, although they have had the same object as he has. I can assure your Lordships that while listening to the speech of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Normanby), and not less so to that of the noble Earl (Earl Grey), the Government have not felt any objection to the discussion of this subject by independent Peers, and if we do resist the Motion, it is merely because we are convinced that its adoption would, instead of assisting the efforts of Government, materially tend to thwart them; but if such would be the result of the Motion, to how far greater extent must it be the consequence of such speeches as that of the noble Earl who spoke last? I was distressed to hear one expression that fell from the noble Earl (Earl Grey) who complained of the mild language held upon this subject by my noble Friend the President of the Council in this, and the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in the other House of Parliament. If the noble Earl had deprecated, not the mild language of Her Majesty's Ministers, but their weak conduct, I could have felt that he had indeed something to complain of. But I apprehend it is the conduct of wise and good Ministers not to indulge in violent language, but to express themselve in mild and respectful terms when addressing other Governments, to use such language as they would desire to have held towards them by foreign Governments; and while offering firm remonstrances, to do so in terms respectful and considerate towards the Government to which they are addressed. I am quite sure that if the language of Her Majesty's Ministers had at all approached or resembled that we have just heard, one of two events would have happened—a war, or the annexation, which we all deprecate, would have been carried out. We know, and must bear in mind, that all that is said here is read across the water, and we should not forget what we felt under similar circumstances. Have we forgotten the just anger that was exhibited when men, far less responsible to the Government, filling 597 less important positions than Members of the Legislature, held such violent language with regard to us, how great was our indignation, and that the country was almost ready to take up arms to avenge itself? I do most earnestly deprecate language which tends to cause irritation on the other side of the Channel, and I feel a confident hope that if the matter be left in the hands of the Government, and they are allowed to carry on the negotiation in a firm hut respectful and conciliatory spirit, we have a good prospect of attaining our object. But if noble Peers come forward to support the Government by violent speeches, there can be little doubt that the annexation which we all desire to prevent will be carried out, The noble Earl who spoke previously (Earl Grey) put the question of English interests upon a proper basis, not as a separate interest, but a European one, in which England was jointly concerned with other Powers, and, following out the principle, I believe your Lordships cannot doubt that the Government has from the first done all in its power by representations, both to France and Sardinia, to prevent that which we all deprecate, and, if permitted, will continue to do so in the same spirit which has hitherto guided it.
LORD BROUGHAM
—My Lords, I wish to make the few observations which I have to offer to your Lordships before the noble Earl near me (the Earl of Derby) rises to address you, because of the part I have always taken in all questions relating to Italy. In the first place, allow me to say I entirely approve of, and was much gratified by the statement of the noble Earl the President of the Council. I view with much satisfaction the statement which my noble Friend made in regard to the communications received from France and sent to France, and I will add that I entirely object, as much as my noble Friend the noble Marquess and the noble Earl object, to what is called the annexation of Savoy and Nice to the French Empire. My objection rests upon the grounds stated by my noble Friends, and it is not merely because of the comparatively trifling addition, whether territorial or strategical, which such an annexation would give to the French Empire, but because of the breach of principle there would be in the departure from the settlement of Europe, and the prospect of what may follow—of what may, without any unreasonable alarm or without any stretch of imagination, be done by other Govern- 598 ments, or even what might be done by our nearest neighbour. We must consider what every man in the north of Europe will feel if this annexation takes place, after all the declarations which have been made, and after all the abstinence which had been described as the governing principle of the French Emperor. If after the Italian war, so professed to have been undertaken, this annexation takes place, where is it to stop? Where is the principle of boundaries to stop? What becomes of the boundary of the Rhine? I need go no further; but will there be a security against any further alteration or distribution of power in Germany as well as on the Rhine? But it appears to mo that your Lordships are all of the same opinion on this subject. I see no difference, except in the mode of expressing ourselves. If I were asked, I should say that I object to the language which my noble Friend near me (the Earl of Shaftesbury) has used, particularly that which he has applied to Sardinia—not the language of deprecation against Sardinia, but in his words of encouragement to that Power to go to war to prevent this annexation, the use of what he called physical force. But I do agree with my noble Friend in one principle he has enunciated. I agree that there can be nothing more atrocious than the handing over, against their will, the people of one country to another Government—the people of a free country, with free institutions, to a Power partaking of despotic. This was the crime, greatest ever committed by nations, the partition of Poland; nothing then can be worse than such a forcible transfer. But I will go further, and I object to the handing over of one country to another, even if not contrary to the wishes of the people. I agree with my noble Friends, that there can be nothing more clear than the principle laid down on the first night of the Session namely, that the Italians ought to be allowed to manage their own affairs, to settle their own form of Government, and to choose the persons to execute it without any foreign interference whatever. Everything should be done by themselves, without the interference of France, Austria, or Sardinia. Such interference is to be entirely deprecated. Still, I think that foreign interference may be used—not by force—but asserted in another form. I agree that the people of a country are themselves to regulate their own affairs in all respects—that the people of the Duchies and all the several Italian Powers hare a 599 right to throw off their rulers—which they have done—to refuse to take them back—which they do not seem likely to do—and that they ought to manage their own concerns as regards the forms of government, or to institute new forms of government, whether they be monarchical, republican, or a mixture of the two, and the choice of rulers by whom their Government is to be administered. All that is their own affair, and no other Power has a right to interfere. But it is quite another thing even when the people of a country are unanimously desirous of annexing themselves to another Power—and here it is said on one side that the Savoyards desire annexation, and on the other that they object to it; but assuming that they are in favour of annexation, it is quite another thing if that change gives the other Powers of Europe reason to apprehend an alteration. I will not use the phrase so much abused of the balance of Power, but the distribution of territory. Then the principle of non-interference stops, and it becomes a question for the other Powers to entertain in regard to the distribution of Power in Europe. Now that, I contend, is quite consistent with the great doctrine of allowing the independence of Italy, and of allowing the Italians to arrange their internal affairs without foreign interference. But the practical question before the House is this: How are your Lordships to deal with the Motion before you? And I confess that, although I feel as anxious as any one to obtain the opinion of your Lordships upon this question, I should deprecate a course which would lead to the idea that there was any division of opinion, or which would show an indication that the great principles were not fully and unanimously approved of. Even suppose the Motion of my noble Friend is carried unanimously. I concur with the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Newcastle) that this also would be inauspicious, that it would tend very much to obstruct the friendly communications and shake the friendly feeling between this country and France. And if it is rejected it might go forth that the adversaries of the Government of the Emperor had been defeated. In any case the Motion is calculated to disturb the good understanding between the two countries, and interfere with arrangements that are most important to the prospects of peace, and I therefore advise the noble Marquess not to press that Motion to a division.
§ THE EARL OF DERBY
My Lords, 600 when I rose a short time since it was not for the purpose of continuing to any length the present debate, or rather what has been not so much a debate as a conversation of the utmost importance; and in which, with regard to the main principle involved in the Motion of the noble Marquess, there has not been, so far as I have observed, the slightest difference of opinion expressed by any one Member of this House. Undoubtedly, various noble Lords have expressed with more or less force the views they entertain of the supposed policy or scheme for the annexation of Savoy to France. The noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury), who always speaks with considerable power, in alluding to this annexation, appeared to think that the measure has been finally determined on; while my noble and learned Friend, who has just sat down, spoke of the arrangements with respect to this matter as still trembling in the balance. [Lord BROUGHAM explained that what he spoke of as still trembling in the balance was the commercial treaty with France.] The only thing with which I have felt disappointed in the course of this debate is that in the address of the noble Earl the President of the Council, while he described the advice—the undoubtedly friendly advice, offered in firm and temperate language—Her Majesty's Government has tendered to the Government of France, he did not add that the advice so tendered has been accepted as conclusive and satisfactory, and that there is no reason for apprehending that the project, so fraught with evil and mischief to all concerned in it, is likely to be carried into effect. The noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) has pointed out, in the strong and forcible language he generally employs, the dangerous consequences arising from the present state of the affairs of Italy, and the dangerous consequences of substituting French for Italian influence in the Northern Provinces. Certainly, my Lords, that influence will be enormously augmented if the power of France is increased by the cession to it of the Province of Savoy, a measure that will leave open to France the gates of Italy. I must take the liberty of saying that when the late Government was using its utmost endeavours to persuade the several powers not to enter into that unhappy war, it especially pointed out the consequences that Sardinia and Savoy would have to apprehend from an alliance with France, should there be an actual outbreak of hosti- 601 lities. These consequences are now, perhaps, more clearly seen than they were at that time; and, however difficult it may be to effect it, I hope that the unanimous opinion of Europe, firmly and temperately expressed, may succeed in preventing a measure that can only lead to interminable complications or consequences yet more dangerous. In the course of this debate I think there has been much that must be gratifying to Her Majesty's Government. I do not agree with the observation that has been made that the adoption of the Motion would be disadvantageous to the general peace and good understanding existing between the two countries. I am certain that if it is rejected because there is a difference of opinion between the noble Marquess and Her Majesty's Ministers on the question as to whether the grounds laid down by the noble Marquess are not constitutional principles or sound international principles, that its rejection would be a singular evil. However that may be, making all allowance for the language which has been used by my noble Friend, Her Majesty's Government will be among the first to admit that the present discussion has exhibited a strong and unanimous feeling on the part of every Member of the British House of Peers, that must be a strong element in the preservation of the peace of Europe and the continuance of a good understanding with that Power whose conduct has been most strongly commented on. My Lords, it is not necessary to discuss the evils and dangers that will arise from the annexation of Savoy to France. They are admitted by all parties; one noble Lord has gone beyond another in the earnestness with which he has pointed out the dangers and evils which must result from the sanction of Europe being given to it. But let me express to all concerned my conviction that the two parties who will suffer most in character and honour by such an annexation will be the two Powers between whom the supposed compact has been made. It has already been pointed out that, by consenting to such an act, the French Emperor will contradict the liberal sentiments he uttered at Milan, and belie the whole course he has pursued since he ascended the throne of France. On every occasion he has studiously declared, and his actions have never yet been in contradiction to it, that whatever he might think, that whatever France might think, of the treaties of 1815, he did not intend to infringe them, but that he 602 recognized them as part of the international law of Europe. From that declaration the conduct of the French Emperor has never swerved. What course he might have pursued, had not Austria precipitated the war in Italy, it is now impossible to say; how far he might have been involved with Sardinia it is impossible to discuss, But the precipitation of Austria, after the declaration of the Emperor that, as long as she continued within her own dominions, he was determined to give no material assistance to Sardinia, commenced the war by the invasion of her neighbour's territory, from that moment, whatever the provocation she received, she precluded herself from calling on Europe to maintain her territorial rights as fixed by the treaties of 1815. But, my Lords, if any Power will suffer more than another, more even than France, and incur an indelible disgrace by giving up Savoy, that Power is Sardinia. She claimed to be the champion and vindicator of the liberty of Italy; she always declared that she entered into the war without any motive of self-aggrandisement, animated solely by a desire to achieve freedom for Italy, thinking nothing of herself. I can hardly understand the language of the noble Earl (Earl Granville) to-night, when he admitted that previous to the war there was some negotiation between France and Sardinia on the subject of a possible annexation of Savoy on certain conditions or contingencies. Now, if such negotiations ever did take place, I confess it is difficult to give credit to the declaration that Sardinia engaged in the war without any previous idea of an increase of territory. You are aware, my Lords, that by a special treaty—the Treaty of Turin—to the provisions of which, I believe, the assent of the other Powers of Europe was obtained, Switzerland and Piedmont reciprocally bound themselves under no circumstances and upon no conditions to cede to any other Power the territory in question, and Piedmont, having accepted that territory, not simply by way of exchange or with the object of promoting the peace of Europe, but by way of affording mutual security as between Switzerland and herself, would, in my opinion, be guilty, not only of a violation of the general law of Europe, but of an infraction of those specific engagements she has contracted with that Power, whose independence and neutrality is the very key-stone of the peace of Europe. I am not, however, prepared to attribute to Sar- 603 dinia conduct at once so discreditable and so inconsistent with the professions which she has made. I trust, on the contrary, that she will have the firmness to say to France—"This is a question with respect to which I am unable to comply with your wishes. I am bound, not alone by the general law of Europe and the treaties of 1815, but by a specific engagement into which I have entered with Switzerland, never to yield up to a third Power this particular territory." Could France, my Lords, in opposition to such a plea as that, by force and without the consent of Piedmont, take possession of Savoy? If she did seize upon that province, must it not be either by resorting to an act of the most unscrupulous violence—an act of which I am far from suspecting that she would be guilty—or as the result of the base and unprincipled connivance of the King of Sardinia, who would thus be despoiling his dominions of that portion of them which furnishes its best troops to his army and the most loyal and attached subjects to his throne? I do not, indeed think, my Lords, that the question is one in dealing with which it becomes this country to use the language of menace. I am, nevertheless, of opinion that it does befit England, as one of the great Powers of Europe, and by the free expression of the sentiments of this, the highest Assembly of a free nation, to have it placed upon record that the unanimous verdict of the Members of that Assembly is, that such conduct on the part of France as I have described would be inconsistent with the due maintenance of the treaties of 1815—that they deem it important, even in the interests of France herself, that she should do nothing to shake that confidence which it is so desirable should be established throughout Europe, and without the establishment of which no good security for the permanent peace of the Continent can be afforded. It is not, my Lords, the armed force of France, great as that undoubtedly is—it is not the important fact that the great resources of that great country are wielded by one absolute and despotic authority—it is not these combined circumstances which create apprehension. No, it is this which causes alarm—that she has never yet been able to succeed in inspiring Europe with perfect confidence in the steadiness of her policy, or in the pacific character of her intentions. Let her, then, show but the slightest design to annex to her own a territory, small in 604 extent, but great in strategic importance; let her but exhibit the smallest indication, now that she has so far succeeded in expelling Austrian influence from Italy, to perpetuate her own domination in that country by means of large standing armies—maintained I know not for what purpose—and I speak not now of the French garrison at Rome—let her, in short, but evince the most trifling disposition to transfer to herself the authority which Sardinia at present possesses over Savoy, thus securing for herself a passage into Italy, and obtaining a resting-place whence her armies may overrun the territories of an ally whose dominions she has been the means of aggrandizing—but under such circumstances of aggrandizing, I would say, to the danger of that Ally—let France, I repeat, my Lords, but pursue such a course of policy as that, and then, indeed, confidence—which is a plant of slow growth, especially among nations—can hardly be expected to be re-established between the powerful French Empire and the rest of Europe, which is looking on and watching her movements, in an attitude of anxious and suspicious hositility. I must, at the same time, observe, my Lords, that a great opportunity is now afforded to the Emperor of the French to maintain unimpaired his character for scrupulous adherence to the principles of good faith. Let him, then, declare that he concurs with Her Majesty's Government in the view which they take of the evils which would be likely to flow, not merely from this annexation of Savoy to France, but from any infraction of those territorial limits which have been so long established, and that he desires the maintenance of the balance of power and the peace of Europe. Let him prove to the world that he went to war—as he declared it to be his intention to do—for the liberation of Italy from foreign control, and not with the view to wield himself that power the exercise of which he condemned in another; lot him show that he respects England, and that right of self-government and independent action which we freely recognized in the case of that mighty Empire over which he reigns by the choice of its people; let him make it plain to Europe that neither upon the side of the Rhine nor the Alps is he to be tempted, by any vain idea as to what may seem to him the natural boundaries of France, to depart from those just principles which are far more potent than any natural limits whatsoever; let him frankly and avowedly take that course not 605 under menace, for menace no nation would venture to offer him; but acting on the friendly representations of a country with which it is his boast that he is on terms of close intimacy and alliance, whose policy he declares to be identical with his own, and with which he does not hesitate to announce that he acts band in hand and side by side. Let him, my Lords, I repeat, pursue that course; let him proclaim to the world that no violation of the existing boundaries of Europe is to be apprehended at his hands, and that he has given England the most solemn assurances that, in common with her, he will proceed upon the principle of absolute and entire non-interference with the affairs of other countries. If be so acts, then indeed, my Lords, will be have nobly availed himself of the opportunity which is now presented to him of reaping that best and most priceless fruit of the victories which be has won—the establishment over the minds of his fellow men of that moral authority which, unlike his great military power, is only to be attained by unswerving good faith, by scrupulous integrity, and by a strict adherence to the obligations of treaties and the rights of nations.
§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
expressed his regret that in the course of his speech in referring to the policy which contended that this country and Sardinia ought to pursue in reference to the question under the notice of the House, he should have used the phrase "physical power," to which the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Newcastle) had alluded.
LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE
said, the remarks which had just fallen from the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby), who had spoken in terms so eloquent on the important subject under discussion, rendered him desirous to address a few observations with respect to it to the House. The noble Earl had stated that every noble Lord who had taken part in the discussion had in reality given expression to the same sentiments, modified although those sentiments might be by the form in which they were conveyed. It bad so happened, however, that, with the exception of the noble Marquess by whom the debate bad been opened, no noble Lord practically connected with the diplomatic service had ventured to address the House upon a question which in so eminent a degree came within the sphere of that department. As one, therefore, who had some experience in diplomatic affairs, he might perhaps be 606 permitted to lay before their Lordships very briefly the views with respect to the present Motion which he entertained. He should, then, in the first place, observe that he entirely concurred with the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) in the opinion that it was for the interest of Europe at large that we should enter our protest against the addition of Savoy to the territories of the French Emperor, for it was impossible with justice to say that France by obtaining possession of that province and Nice would not be furnished with additional power of extending her influence over Italy; and although it might be said that England had no special interest in the latter country beyond that which related to her commerce, yet it was of the utmost importance that foreign influence should not be employed there in a manner prejudicial to us, especially if that influence were to proceed from a quarter which afforded indication of a readiness to pursue a policy unfavourable to this country—a policy on which he hoped the present Emperor of the French would never act, although it must be borne in mind that such had been the traditional policy of the French nation from the earliest times. He alluded to that policy which France had long been desirous of carrying out, which would convert the Mediterranean into a French lake. With regard to the territorial transfer now said to be contemplated, in proportion as it might be inexpedient to hazard the peace of this country and of Europe by our opposition to that transfer, so it was incumbent on Parliament at the proper time to express its opinions on the subject, and thus afford to the Government a support which would enable them when the time came to act up to their declarations. These declarations, though not quite so strong and so emphatic as had just been heard from other parts of the House, made it evident that the Government perceived the danger to which this annexation might lead, and felt themselves bound to take whatever measures could in prudence be suggested to prevent it. It could not be denied that, in addition to the increased influence which would accrue to her in Italy, France would derive from the acquisition of Savoy and Nice advantages infinitely superior to those which we had lately been accused of aiming at. What importance, for example, was attached by some of our neighbours to that miserable island at the entrance of the Red Sea, and what irritation had been produced by 607 our supposed desire of acquiring it! The possession of Perim was, indeed, of little importance as compared with the possession of Savoy and Nice; but even these considerations, important as they were, became comparatively trivial by the side of the questions of general policy which had just been so eloquently commented upon by the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby). It was in this point of view that the strange and pernicious principles which had lately been put forward across the Channel were chiefly to be regarded. We had certainly no right to attribute these principles to the constituted authorities of France; yet they bore about them some marks of recognition by the authorities, and could not, therefore, be divested of importance. When their Lordships remembered these things, he could not help thinking that the Motions of the noble Marquess and the discussion which it had evoked were such as to inspire the strongest feelings of satisfaction; and he must therefore add his testimony to that of others as to the service rendered by the noble Marquess to this House and to the country by bringing the question forward. In the debate which had taken place he had heard nothing inconsistent with the language which a great assembly like this was entitled and was, indeed, bound to use. It seemed to him that just in proportion as they were called upon to do everything which might prevent the country from being plunged into war, so it became a more urgent duty on the part of Parliament to express a strong opinion when principles were enunciated which struck at the roots of all international obligations and of all international confidence. On such an occasion surely it was in the province of this House and of Parliament to meet such principles by a counter declaration, which should operate upon other countries, and, perhaps, thereby be the means of checking designs which it would be necessary to oppose even at the hazard of war. In the course of this debate a just tribute had been paid to the honour and the consistency of the great man now at the head of the French Empire. As far as the direct relations between the two countries were concerned this tribute was no doubt just and well-founded. But at the same time no one could help observing that during the last few years there had been certain transactions, by the side, so to speak, of the direct and public relations between the two countries, which had ex-cited astonishment combined with some de- 608 gree of distrust, not only here, but throughout Europe. When these matters were brought before Parliament, and opinions were frankly interchanged there respecting them, he thought their Lordships had a right to expect that instead of being treated as causes of offence or of quarrel by other Powers, these opinions should, on the contrary, be regarded as arising from a just sense of duty not only towards our own country, but towards Europe at large, and from a sincere desire for the continuance of that peace which was of so much importance to us and the whole world. This free expression of opinion on all subjects affecting our Foreign relations was not only of value in preventing bloodshed, but in extending also those great commercial interests which strengthened the friendship of nations; and he hoped that the present discussion would so be regarded, and would not fail of that happy effect.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY
, in reply, said he was surprised to find that the Government made any difficulty in assenting to his Motion. It was not his intention to resist the appeal made to him by his noble Friend opposite, who said it would be inconvenient that the Motion should be pressed. But, although he was willing to withdraw it, he wished it to be understood that, his noble Friend excepted, every one who had spoken in this debate had assented not only to the principle which he had put forward, but to the expediency of giving expression to the unanimous assent of the House by adopting the Address he had moved; but by not pressing it he meant to leave upon Her Majesty's Ministers the responsibility of carrying out the views of the House in the way they thought most likely to be successful. It had been stated that if Savoy were annexed to France it would be by the decision of the people. He hoped their unbiassed decision was here meant, and that their opinions would be elicited without any foreign pressure. But he begged at the same time distinctly to be understood as not agreeing to withdraw his Motion for the reasons given by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), that its adoption might endanger the success of the Commercial Treaty. The prospect of such a result would not alarm him at all. But if his noble and learned Friend were still in the House, he would tell him what he had often heard was said in Paris within the last few days as to the reason why England would not strongly resist this measure. The phrase used might be best trans- 609 lated, because "England has sold her birthright for a mess of pottage."
§ Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at half-past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock. |
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Higher tantric practices involved the use of sex between two people (who might well not be attracted to each other) as part of a meditatitve practice where the goal was not to be distracted by the sex but to use it as part of the meditation.... (I'll get to this in a minute.)
I'm well aware that a lot of people drawn to the Buddhist path are folks who have suffered a lot of trauma and difficulty somewhere along the way. Both parents dying early, abusive fathers, mothers with scary diseases, alcoholic families... people that had to grow up really quickly.
And this is the thing. Buddhist lore explains people being drawn to Buddhism as a function of their past good karma, or as an expression of an innate desire to awaken that is present to some extent in all sentient beings. These theories may or may not be true. But what I have seen so often as to think it may be the majority case, is that people who are drawn to spirituality in a very intense, serious way, are often people who have suffered in exceptional ways.
This is wonderful, because Buddhist practice gives people unparalleled tools for working with suffering. But at the same time, for a lot of folks, it seems the medicine becomes a sickness, or becomes incorporated into part of an already existing sickness..
I don't know what other people at TL do in their personal lives regarding this matter, but I know that I was told by several that what I was feeling and going through was a "problem" that I needed to "fix" in one way or another before I would even be allowed to practice or engage further with the community. I think this is a completely wrong attitude and it was certainly the wrong advice for me, however well intentioned it was or was not. This is why I appreciate Brad's book--not because I think he has suffered more than other Zen practitioners, but because the attitude expressed in the book emphasizes working with these things, practicing in these situations, rather than directing effort into trying to make these feelings or situations go away.
Of course it's natural that religious people judge how others live their lives. I think people's beliefs and expectations about what it means to be Buddhist are often very silly and off-base. And, at times, dangerous or damaging. Because when people believe that the Dharma only looks a certain way, that means that some people feel that they are not even "worthy" to take up a Buddhist practice, while others who do fight themselves and deny their "un-Buddhist" feelings, thoughts, issues, desires, or problems instead of dealing with them in a mature and direct way. This is especially problematic in a tradition centered on discovering the truth. If in order to practice, one has to deny what one feels, or have a punitive attitude toward oneself that one feels or experiences these things, then it becomes the same false, neurotic head-trip that any other religion caught up in ideals of purity becomes. And the bottom line--the real matter--is that the religion becomes a method of denying the truth, rather than drawing closer to it.
Had I taken some of the more impassioned advice I got on TL, it would have prolonged my difficulties and hindered my 'spiritual recovery.' I do not blame people for not knowing what was right for me--their advice may well have been the right advice for another person in a similar situation. What concerns me is that the attitude was so dogmatic.
I made it very clear that I felt that the depression I was going through was directly related to my 'spiritual journey,' a direct outcome of a period of rapid and heavy disillusionment. The attitude at TL was that if you practice, you are naturally more happy and at ease, not less so, and that if you're not happy, well, go fix it first and then practice. I cannot tell you how intensely wrong I think this is. But it is a very common attitude in Buddhist circles.
Sometimes intensified suffering is part of the path. Sometimes it's painful to let go of certain things, but we have to do it anyway. And if we don't honestly work through the emotions that come up around that, they get shunted off and haunt us until we do. Faith comes from living out what one knows to be true for oneself. Blind and false belief comes from accepting the authority of others even when it contradicts what one knows on some level to be true.
I don't mind what others do with their time as long as it makes them happy and does not harm others. If people truly come to happiness through fighting against their emotions, more power to 'em. I mean that sincerely. But I know that approach does not work for me. And I strongly suspect there are many others for whom that approach does not work, who would be much happier and wiser if they stopped trying so hard to make their experience other than what it is. That's why I'm here, writing what I do, and I suspect that's why Brad published this book. If one person out there reads any of this and even just stops for a minute to wonder if it's okay for them not to be perfect, that they can practice anyway and put their own unique experience to work in service of the Dharma, that there may be a 'spiritual value' to even some of the experiences others have told them are 'unspiritual,' it's worth the time and effort I've put into writing this.
Stef,
As someone who is/was an active member of TL I can say you've got it all back-asswards. The whole point what both Jundo and Brad are trying to convey - both in their own unique way - is that you should practice with whatever situation and mind you have.
However, when and if your practice causes your mental balance to decrease - like the one unfortunate woman Brad wrote about in his book who took the fast-kensho deal in Japan - you should seriously examine both your practice AND your life in general, because mental illness or the worsening of symptoms of such is NEVER the result or expected nor desired outcome or part of correct practice.
Take a good look at the word correct. This buddhism thing has over two millenia of history with all sorts of folks practicing so there most likely is a preceding case for anything that comes up and history for some solutions having worked and some not.
Are you sure you have read Brad's writings thoroughly - as you like to imply when saying you "get" him unlike someone else. I'm asking this because you speak about spiritualism a lot - have you read Brad's late article at SG called "Buddhism is not Spirituality"? You also use the word "karma" a lot and in a way that resembles the tibetan idea of some holy judge or book-of-your-deeds than the Zen idea of karma meaning just action (at the present moment).
You say you have found a new meaning in meaningless universe - could it be that while you've wandered off from the official sangha (remember what Buddha called the three gems) you have lost your contact with the concepts of authentic Zen practice as well and does that make you more or less likely to "get" what Brad writes than someone who has practiced the same lineage with him for probably longer than you've been alive...
The problem is when people use Zen practice or teaching to cover over, deny, rationalize, suppress, etc., these thoughts and feelings, rather than to truly face up to, understand, and work through them.
True, but there are lots of ways to do zen in an unhelpful way. Are you certain this is what Jundo was really advising? I got the impression he/they were just worried about you. Zen won't sort everything - for a specific problem you may need to see a therapist. I got the impression that this was the judgement call he made about you at that time.
Hi Stephanie,
Well, with love, your comment is bull crack...
Discussion of personal trauma and pain have always been a large part of what people talk about in our Forum, since day one. What I discourage, however, is WALLOWING and OBSESSING ON THE PAST and WOW IS ME-ING and ... most importantly ... the refusal of someone to see that the thoughts & emotions in their head are running away like bulls in a stampede.
Our method of Shikantaza involves allowing the thoughts to calm and still. It is not about ignoring pain & trauma, or pushing it under the rug. It is about recognizing pain's existence as just what it is, allowing the pain to be, and moving on with life even if the pain remains..
Our method is never to cover over or deny. It is to allow it all to be, with a mind neither stirred up or resisting. Some folks, Steph, cannot learn how to to that.
I do not think Shikantaza is a panacea for all ills, and some folks need to pursue other methods in parallel (like counseling, in which they can work through issues, or receive other treatments). If you want to "work through" you problems, there are plenty of avenues such as counseling or buying a book by Oprah or whatnot.
But if you want to try "Shikantaza", we do not "work through" We drop from mind, or allow the pain just to be, without resistance.
However, when people come to our Sangha, and simply wish to wallow and relive the past, fixate and moan, blame and spin their mental wheels REFUSING to try to quiet the mind ... refusing to just let things be or let things go ... refusing to drop all that, then I tell them that maybe Shikantaza is not for them (it is not for everybody). and various other flavors of self-created mental trash that he seems unable, in the book, to clear from his mind. There is not one mention in the book (that I recall) of any of that as the greed, anger and ignorance of the "self" or as a mental created storyline that could be changed or dropped away. I meet victims of physical violence, holocaust survivors, war veterans and the like who are able to do so through their Buddhist practice..
There are people out there who can literally drown all other conversation with their own voice - either because the love their voice so much or because they simply enjoy causing disruption. In either case it's better for everyone if you tell them to stfu as soon as possible.....
Maybe not in the long term, but in the short term, I disagree. When you're looking for the truth, sometimes you run across truths that aren't that pleasant. It sometimes takes a while to... adjust to them. Which might, in some people, exascerbate symptoms of depression. And then, slowly, one recovers.
Are you sure you have read Brad's writings thoroughly - as you like to imply when saying you "get" him unlike someone else.
I don't think I "get" Brad better than everyone else. I spent the past couple of years or so being absolutely irritated with his writing and finding points of disagreement with it in almost every case. I think in many ways I am a very different person than Brad. I do think I understand what he was trying to convey in this book more than a lot of the "haters" on here, though. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe my understanding of what I read is different from the understanding of the writer who wrote it. I do know, however, that I relate strongly to the book that I read according to my own understanding.
You also use the word "karma" a lot and in a way that resembles the tibetan idea of some holy judge
That's not the way I meant it. What I meant when I used the word in the comments above may extend a little beyond the basic / traditional usage of the term, but not in the way you suggest. I was using it to describe the mental conditioning that follows action and experience. For example, to live out my "karma" is to live out the mental experience that follows from my childhood, formative experiences growing up, etc. Nothing supernatural was implied.
does that make you more or less likely to "get" what Brad writes
My Buddhist practice is very traditional. I got the "knack" of the traditional shikantaza approach a couple of years ago and have been sitting zazen for over five years now. I practice with the four immeasurable states of mind (the brahma-viharas) which are the real core of my daily practice. Kannon sits on my altar, not Buddha--I venerate the Buddha and the wisdom he represents, but compassion is the heart of my practice. Anyway, why I think I related to this book in particular has less to do with practice experience and more to do with personality.. I do value zazen as an excellent, indispensable practice, but what is far more important than the practice of zazen is the activation and application of discriminating wisdom and insight.
It's a sort of inner fire that fuels zazen. You keep questioning, questioning, questioning. I have a Dharma friend I've been talking to who's given me more tools for doing this and an understanding of the simplicity of it. You've really got to have a fundamentally questioning attitude. "Curious" is too mild. You've got to be driven to know. Nishijima Roshi calls it "will to the truth." One can see throughout history that many non-Buddhists have gained tremendous insight into the nature of mind and reality. Sometimes it's due to similar practices but I think it has more to do with the power of deep inquiry. Hui-neng was enlightened simply by hearing a few lines of the Diamond Sutra, had a sudden insight into reality that most likely arose from a mind already established in an inquiring attitude.
And what I've been trying to say here is--Jundo suggests that if I want to "work through" something, I pick up a book by Oprah, as if trying to sort through one's emotional life is a flaky, irrelevant thing to do. But that's the thing--if one truly wants to know reality, one has to become as clear as possible about the filters that affect one's perception. I agree that additional practices, such as psychoanalysis, can be necessary and useful here. I know I need, and want to do, some intensive counseling whenever it's first feasible for me to do so.
Anyway, the point is that it is tremendously easy to have blind spots about why one sees and does things as one does. You can sit zazen, sit shikantaza, develop some insight, but still be coming at things from a skewed angle. Why? Because sitting zazen, while it may give some insight into the mind, does not erase one's "karma"--one's mental conditioning. If you don't get clear about this, you can spend your entire practice life using Zen, using zazen, to do something dysfunctional that is not bringing you any closer to truth or insight at all. Instead it's just shoring and building up your already existing defenses and views. and how your view of 'spirituality' and reality might not be an expression of wisdom but instead of a deeply entrenched emotional need. If you ever wanna get some perspective on your blind spots and limitations you have to develop this sort of awareness of your psychic structures and patterns, else all you'll do your entire practice life is use that practice to play out shadowy infantile (I use that term in a psychoanalytic, not pejorative way) needs.
I don't understand how anyone can think that digging into a practice that challenges all your most deeply cherished beliefs and dreams, and being willing to face the fact that they're not true, or that the reasons you do what you do aren't so noble, is not something that might freak you out or depress you at points. Of course, ultimately, as one practices, one moves beyond the shock or pain, and realizes one never needed these beliefs or dreams in the first place, but this takes time...
Contrarily to what you suggest, shikantaza is exactly the thing to work through your mind and conditioning and it's everything but about making you more boring or dull. Obviously you should've sat some more before jumping the wagon, but hey - you say you're not interested in Buddhism anyway!
Because while finding some arbitrary "truth" about reality is a fine goal that many a modern freethinker say they are after, it has nothing to do with Buddhism which is about realizing that we suffer, recognizing why we suffer and figuring out how to end the suffering. After all, there is no Ultimate Truth(tm) to be found - some things will always be left in the mists. Ever heard of the unanswerable questions?
PS. Just like Rimpa said. If the Llama does it for you - more power to you! But don't mix that with Zen!
Zen has never been just about Zazen.
Anon-
Just like Jundo (are you Jundo?), you jump to the conclusion that I don't, or have stopped, practicing Zen. That is absolutely incorrect. Just because Zen is my practice doesn't mean I can't find wisdom in other Buddhist schools, and beyond Buddhism altogether.
And if you think that my point about the need for a capacity for insight and an attitude of intense inquiry, not just dead zazen, is a "Tibetan" point and not a "Zen" one you would do well to read up on your Zen history. You can sit on that cushion 'til your ass turns blue and if you don't know where and how to direct your attention while you're doing it all you'll do is just learn how to quiet and calm yourself. Not a bad thing, but certainly not equivalent with wisdom.
Stef,
What makes you think all the people who write here under the Anonymous pseudonym are the same person?
As for directing attention, I'd recommend you read Hardcore Zen by one Brad Warner. It has pretty good instructions about how to do zazen and what to do with your mind (or rather, not do) when sitting. His other books are also worth reading as is this blog..
'the will to the truth' by questioning 'what is this?' is an important tool to cut off all thinking and experience what is, even though we 'don't know' what it is. People who think there is a big difference between Gudo/Brad and other practice forms are wrong. Form becomes noform.
Thanks Rich (and everyone else who has shared kind / encouraging words with me) :).
Here's my shikantaza story. When I first started sitting, I alternated between counting the breaths and focusing my attention on the sensation of the breath in the hara (mostly the latter). I did this for a few years, as I had practiced and received instruction in a lineage that taught that the student should practice in this way until developing a certain power of concentration and getting the 'go ahead' from the teacher, and then one would either start working on koans or sitting shikantaza. In this (Maezumi - Loori) lineage, shikantaza was / is considered a subtle practice and one the student needs to develop a certain amount.
In 2007, I went on a week-long solitary retreat in which I sat 6-8 hours of zazen a day. I spent much of that retreat dealing with "emotional stuff" that came up - wrangling with the hellhound on my trail, basically - but also had a bit of a "breakthrough" in the technique of my sitting practice. the mind. Put the light of mind on the mind. Watching thoughts as they arise with no attempt to stop them, attention directed at 'the place where thought arises' (not that there is really such a "place") tends to make thoughts fall away and lose power like fog dissipating in front of the sun.
Though shikantaza is simple, it is deceptively so. There's an 'extra ingredient' that I found transformed my sitting experience, which was not a goal or a goal directed activity, but a questioning attitude. No particular question. More an ability to look at the mind and wonder what this is. What is this? It's that attitude that allows one to even be able to watch thoughts arise without getting caught in them. It's that attitude that allows one to turn the light of the mind inward. One stops directing all of one's questioning toward the outer world and directs it at the inner, the one experiencing it. This is the heart of any Buddhist practice, it seems to me. But it was (mostly) Zen teaching that helped me develop the right attitude toward my own mind.
I'm far from enlightened. I haven't had any kensho experiences, I don't feel that I know 'the answer' or any number of things I want or would like to know. I'm still sorting through a deep, ancient pile of emotional shit. My sitting practice has been inconsistent since I started grad school and try as I might, I'm having a hard time getting back up to daily sitting again. I sat daily with only rare exceptions for almost two years and now sit 2-4 times a week. I don't know who I am or want to be and am going through all of the usual mid-20s crap, as well as extra crap since I've got some extra baggage, as well as the rubble of spiritual disillusionment. I ain't mastered shit when it comes to Zen, but the one thing I do have some faith in is what I do when I'm on that cushion. A Dharma buddy has only helped me clarify further that the essential ingredient to sitting and everyday life is that fundamental orientation toward one's own mind, of questioning it first, always. I believe that liberation does indeed lie in clarifying the nature of mind because mind creates everything and we tend to take that for granted, that the whole dog and pony show is generated from within.
But the thing is--even I, fucked up as I am and only a few years into my practice, realize that's not enough. It's not enough to see that one's mind creates one's experience like a projector creates a movie. Because one cannot 'opt out' of the experience or turn off the movie. One's life is one's life. And if one doesn't get straight on the fine details of one's particular conditioning, they will inevitably drive one's behavior as a wild, spooked horse drags along a charioteer.
This is why I truly believe in the validity of Western psychoanalytic theory and practice (i.e. therapy) as an excellent, if not necessary, complement to Zen practice. I've seen too much of how people live out their pathologies or strengthen pathological defenses in their spiritual lives. People who learned to survive growing up by cutting off, denying, or dissociating from their emotions tend to love zazen. It becomes like a master class in dissociation.
And y'know... there are worse things. There are worse ways people could cope. But the truth of existence isn't in making oneself into an idealized Dharma paper doll, cutting everything into the perfect shape. A lot of people are very violent toward themselves, and then "Buddhist" practice can just become another form of this violence, of trying to force oneself into this cookie cutter paradigm through denial of one's feelings, desires, and even needs.
A lot of broken people whip and chain themselves with the whips and chains of what they think is Dharma. But it ain't that. Anything that promotes that rigid, suppressing attitude toward oneself is not wisdom. I know that much. Of course, it's ideal if one isn't angry or upset, but if one is, one is, and the best way to honestly and directly deal with that is to be where one is, to sit with it and practice with it and go through it. And then, as with all things, it will pass.
Really useful material, lots of thanks for your post. |
MGMT and ULTRA SIMPLE ZAZEN
First this is my new favorite song in the world. I don't care what it's about. You don't need drugs. Just listen to this! It's called "It's Working" by MGMT. The whole album is amazing. I'm so jazzed that something really good is popular.
Although, I have to add that this is something like what I was trying to do with Dimentia 13 (altho MGMT does it sooo much better). Just sample this from the first Dimentia 13 LP.
I don't have a whole lot of time for a report. We'll be on our way to Warsaw in just a few minutes. It's been raining like cats and dogs the whole time I've been in Poland. I know because I stepped in a poodle!
But seriously, folks, the rain has been so bad that a lot of the roads are washed out, trains are stopped, all sorts of chaos has ensued. But we made it to Katowice last night and had one of the best talks ever with the group from the Bodhidharma Zen Center. As usual with the talks that end up being good, this one was probably not recorded. The iPhone my host Slawek used to record it was acting weird the whole time. So maybe something made it on to the hard drive but probably not the whole talk.
Which is sad because you'll miss out hearing the crazy woman who came in, asked a few bizarre questions and then left in a huff when the answers I gave didn't satisfy her. She was very mystical and was apparently testing my ability to see Beyond The Beyond or some such thing.
After she left the discussion settled a bit. One of the questions I was asked concerned mistakes Westerners make in Zen. I get that one a lot. But last night, for some reason it sparked a memory from when I worked for Tsuburaya Productions.
Ultraman is one of the most incredibly simple designs in the world. Look:
It's very straight-forward and that's why it works and has become so iconic. Even 6 year old kids can draw Ultraman.
I have a friend, Hiroshi Maruyama, whose job it used to be to design the new Ultraman characters. He told me once that all he could ever do with that design was mess it up. It was perfect as it was. The only thing you could do was ruin the beautiful simplicity of it.
Here's one of the later Ultraman characters to give you an idea what he meant. This is actually not one of Maruyama's designs. His are a lot more successful. When they got to this character they had someone else work on it and all they did was add unnecessary shit on to what was already complete in and of itself. And this isn't even one of the worst. They'd add horns and noses and big ears and all kinds of crap.. You don't need to explain it. You don't need to tack on a lot of pop psychological bullcrap. Just leave it be! Leave Britney alone! And leave Zazen alone!
76 comments:
Adam Spafford is king
KISS
No, not the band, but what my mom would say: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Straight and to the point, nicely done.
Too bloody right!!!
OzMatt
Keep Zazen simple! A statement so simple that it almost says something, instead of just sounding like it says something.
people are difficult to understand.
Brad likes Alex Chilton, Hitchcock.
Brad likes pure crap like Kiss, MGMT.
Go figure.
"She was very mystical and was apparently testing my ability to see Beyond The Beyond or some such thing."
Eh. I've seen Bed, Bath and Beyond a couple of times. Nothing special. Kinda tacky.
One Step Beyond is pretty cool tho. John Newland is so under-appreciated. Everyone thinks Serling was the shizz but Newland was the bomb.
Haha.. The Ultraman design was perfect as it was. That's funny Brad. Are you sure that isn't Ultrawoman? He has very nice boobs and he's hung like an Irishman. I don't get your 'beautiful simplicity of Ultraman' talk either. Just because you once worked for Tsuburaya Productions doesn't mean Ultraman is anything other than tacky.
Yeah. Ultraman is rubbish. You're wierd.
My Physics professor used to have a quote at the front of the class. It said "Physics is simple but subtle."
That last post was kind of like a half thought... I tend to think half a conversation or thought in my head then speak/write the rest of the thought... mind reading anyone? lol
In any case, I'm on the 3rd reading of "Sit Down and Shut Up" and it seems particularly relevant to this post. For instance, even though Brad really "dumbs" down Dogen, meaning taking the crazy vocabulary and making it more contemporary and just explain the shit so I can understand it, I still have to read over and over...some of the concepts are like wtf??? But those things and zazen are pretty straightforward and direct.. At least sometimes I get that sense. Perhaps it's because I'm so used to thinking so much to solve things that I over think with zazen and make it much more complex than it really is too.
All I know is that when Brad talks about sitting (and to paraphrase) with the beginning full of back pain, leg pain, random thoughts running around and you just want to get up and scream or sing "Enter Sandman" at the top of your lungs... I know that feeling well.
Maybe it's because zazen is so direct, and I'm so used to listening to the bullshit in my head that doesn't even matter.
There's nothing subtle about Ultraman. He sucks. Things Zen on the other hand can be quite beautiful. Brad's a philistine.
CAPTCHA : weigig : I kid you not
Zen has undergone thousands of years of refinement and Ultra-man was designed over a weekend..
Brad, of course you can't not try to complicate it. Our brain is wired to try to find patterns, referents, "hooks" and structures for us to make sense of things. And of course it's all manifestations of what our mind makes up. It's the cerebrum's equivalent of a scratchy nose.
But I'll repeat a line I say often: your zazen shouldn't be only only on the cushion.
Re. Mumon's comment "But I'll repeat a line I say often: your zazen shouldn't be only only on the cushion."
I'm not so sure about that anymore. Sometimes I take my sitting zen out with me and forget that I'm standing. I've been leaving my zazen on the cushion lately, and it, as well as life, seem to be more fun (for now).
"The present unrestricted state of dignified behavior of acting buddha is restricted by the state of buddha, in which state, because the vigorous path of "dragging through the mud and staying in the water" has been mastered, there is no restriction," says Dogen (yup, I'm on Volume II, Chapter 23).
CAPTCHA: Ovenst (in Cliffside, NJ, we added nst to sarcastically negate something. If someone had a totally uncool oven, I guess we would say "Nice oven'st")..
Sebouh:
Can I take that as an agreement?
:-)
In musical taste, pop culture views, social/political commentary and what passes for his "Buddhist teaching", Brad's pretty lightweight and naive. Some may think of his treatment of Dogen as "simplifying for the masses", but really it is just shallow and dumbed down. Let's face it. People new to Zen like Brad, they like the book with the toilet on the cover, so it is not all bad. But there is no real meal beyond Brad's fast food drive through.
I absolutely do not get the sense that Brad's talking about any immediate gratification when he writes about Zen. In fact, he denounces the easy path as bullshit time and again. There are some things I connect with, e.g. the explanations of Hyakujo's fox or the Genjokoan (or the pay me $200 for instant satori.. kidding) among others where it's like oh wow, that's what he was saying? That's my personal experience at least, and that's what keeps me reading .. but to each their own. Unless their own of course is bullshit (unless you're a fly). hahahaha
Mumon:
Yes, I just realized that I completely agree.
(I like the extra "only" in your comment).
Apparently Brad is teaching that taste is just conditioning. Rightly so. But he still has his preferences.
CAPTCHA : fujonse : fujoshi?
Hi 7.45am,
In...what passes for his "Buddhist teaching", Brad's pretty lightweight and naive...there is no real meal beyond Brad's fast food drive through.
If you think the truth can only be expressed in erudite philosophical formulations, then Brad is definitely not your man. And Zen is probably not your way.
What are you hoping to find? Perhaps that there's something else - something other than 'just this'?
The 'meal' is your life. No one can live it for you.
Brad just being Brad. No one eats his meal for him. I wonder if he found a Polish Taco bell?
Captcha : mysedon : Whatever became of him?
There is also a a very zenny story, making exactly that point.
Master and student are sitting around a fire.
Master: "You are getting a great and important zen lesson now, so better listen closely and do exactly what I tell you: Set up the pot."
The diligent disciple takes out the pot and with the usual zen like attention to detail, fiddles around until it is perfectly straight (it's an important lesson after all!) and then turns to his master.
Master: "You fool, you did it wrong. Try again."
The student, worried about not having gotten the lesson, thinks about it.
"I'm dumb! Master wants to cook something, so I have to fill the pot with water!"
The student runs to the river, fills the pot, sets it up above the fire in perfect alignment. The water filled pot stands with the quiet dignity of a stone in a zen garden.
The master topples it.
"Idiot, you are doing it wrong. Try again."
The whole scene repeats itself again and again. Even after preparing a whole meal, the zen master still is not happy.
"The soup was good, but you still did it all wrong."
Days go by, with the master constantly scolding his student for his continued bad performance.
One evening the student is fed up with all the bullshit.
"No matter what I do, it's not perfect enough for the old geezer."
So he takes the pot out and just puts it on the fire.
Master: "That took some time..."
I have been reflecting on how we complicate and fix Zen a great deal lately. The transmission ceremonies, the Soto and the Rinzai..., who is "authentic" and who is more authentic. It seems if you teach Zazen and avoid teaching things that are harmful, and try to guide the student from self delusion, then Zazen will unfold if the conditions are conducive. Myself, I am not convinced that Buddhism, religion, myths and other inspirations add value.
I can understand that someone who teaches would not support someone who they are working with to teach unless the person is considered "ready" and won't do harm.
We like our lives and ourselves to be heroic and interesting. Meanwhile, life is the taste of the inside of your mouth.
It's very simple, oh so simple. You are born out of the nothing. You grow, you get a job, get married and have kids maybe, you grow old and then you die and return to the nothing from whence you came. So what's the problem? There is no problem.
I'm currently reading Ending the Pursuit of Happiness by Barry Magid. He's saying in his book many of the same things Brad is saying from a slightly different perspective.
Magid says something like we don't do Zazen with some kind of aspiration or enlightened experience but to become aware of these "curative fantasies" or "secret practices," or the yearning for some kind of special experience of enlightenment, so we can let go and touch the ordinary present moment without all the "if only" thoughts about fixing ourselves. Simplicity. Nothing special. I like his method of being emotionally honest and accepting all of our stuff (longing, selfishness, anger, along with gratitude, compassion, etc) as a starting point to see what needs to be done moment by moment. Like Shunryu Suzuki said, "All of you are perfect just as you are, and you could use a little improvement."
"I think this is what often happens with Western Zen. We seek to "improve" something that has already undergone thousands of years of refinement. All we can do is add extraneous garbage to something and ruin its original simplicity."
I hope Brad doesn't mean that zen as transmitted to the west is some pristine form not to be tampered with. The chinese added all sorts of things to chan. Koans, for example. At some point the government insisted chan monks pray for military victory and emperor wellbeing. Before this petitionary prayer was unknown in chan. Baizhang added his rules and changed the sect completely by insisting monks should work for their upkeep instead of just begging as in the original Indian forms. Then during Sung times all sorts of ideas and practices from other sects were added to chan (zen). Zen students began to combine pureland chants with zazen. I'm not suggesting all of these things were improvements, but they were changes. The japanese also modified zen in all sorts of ways over the centuries. '
I see no reason to insist that all change should suddenly stop now that zen has come to 'the west'.
Some changes may be good, others not so good. I think Brad has dropped many of the formalities and ceremonies associated with zen himself. Nishijima roshi has reinterpreted zazen along western physiological lines and this could be considered tampering with zen itself by some people. He and Brad's outright rejection of the rebirth doctrine would also be considered a radical change to traditonal zen. (one that I agree with btw) Brad seems down on 'western zen', but I see many healthy changes taking place as well as kooky complications.
"I hope Brad doesn't mean that zen as transmitted to the west is some pristine form not to be tampered with."
Brad, I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at either.. Are you saying that Genpo's Big Mind Method isn't an improvement? How do you feel about cyber-sanghas?
Are there improvements or do the skillful means adapt to different cultures?
Homeless Kodo said:
Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood – isn’t that the happiest form of life you can imagine?
Oh yes!
I have earlier mentioned that I have asked Nishjima Roshi on his blog what action is.
SR's last one (@ 7:31 am, about the only one I've read, sorry) made me remember it.
Here it is with regard to his.
should be an "i" after "Nish" and before "jima"
I think this is what often happens with Western Zen. We seek to "improve" something that has already undergone thousands of years of refinement.
Very well said, indeed. Having seen the beauty of Asian Buddhism as it is, I found efforts toward reductionism, or modernization pretty silly.
Wrote something similar on the subject myself:
In short: don't criticize Buddhism as it is until you've done your homework. There's quite a lot of nice stuff under the surface. :)
It's not Zen that needs to be stupidly simple. We need to be stupidly simple. It's when we take what's right in front of us us and try to improve it, that we go wrong.
MGMT song is okay. I'd like to hear Shonen Knife do a cover of it. How sick and twisted is that?
My article on Dzogchen, "Maha Ati: Natural Liberation Through Primordial Awareness" drops at BuddhistGeeks.com this Friday.
Lone Wolf at 11:43, I agree, Barry Magid's work is well worth a look.
Oh, did I mention My article on Dzogchen, "Maha Ati: Natural Liberation Through Primordial Awareness" drops at BuddhistGeeks.com this Friday.
Yeah, blatant self-promotion. Blatant.
Captcha: blatent I kid you!
Did Dogen say it's ok to blog about zen? How did Kodo Sawaki feel about zen teachers on YouTube?
I'm pretty sure the Buddha was against any of his monks appearing on CNN or playing bass in a punk band.
Hey Troy!
Long time...
Brad's post is entitled:
"...ULTRA SIMPLE ZAZEN"
He signs off with, "leave Zazen alone!"
That, Troy, was his main point, as I read it. The bit about "Western Zen" needing to remain "stupidly simple" refers to the practice of zazen, or 'Zen' for short. So I think you misunderstand. Partly Brad's fault. But mainly yours ;)
Point is, is it ok with you if Brad plays in a band, blogs, or appears on TV?...The point for you, not me - I don't care whether you approve or not :)
...You're not the only one to have misunderstood. So let's make it 50/50: misunderstanders/Brad.
Unless I've misunderstood. But I really don't think so.
Barry Magid quotes:
Zen demands that we resolve for ourselves the tension between maintaining what is traditional and authentic in its transmission and the need to constantly be adaptive and responsive to a changing world. We need to simultaneously see with our own eyes and look through the eyes of our ancestors.
................
When we read about how Zen has traditionally been practiced over the centuries in China and Japan, or even when we think about how the previous generation of teachers were trained, we must decide how much we can simply follow in their footsteps and where we need to branch off onto our own path. How much of Asian culture must we learn and assimilate in order to maintain a genuine connection to our spiritual ancestors? ...We likewise have to ask ourselves how much we view particular rigors of traditional monastic training as a means to and end, and end we might conceivably accomplish in different ways, and how much we see the forms of traditional practice as the very life of practice itself, a form of life that we cherish for its own sake. But if we practice from a stance of no gain, and practice is not a means to and end, can we conceive of practice manifesting itself in myriad forms, lay as well as monastic, as multiple and diverse as the lives of its practitioners?
............
My teacher felt her own traditional Zen training had taught her to treat emotions as an obstacle to practice; in her.
More Barry:
Zazen is not a technique. It is not a means to an end. It's not a way to become calmer, more confidant, or even "enlightened." Not that we can't be happy (or enlightened), it's just that we'll get there by a very different route than we once imagined - and it may not look anything like what we expected when we started out.
...........
The "uselessness" of true practice keeps it at odds with our various "secret practices," which always are covertly trying to assimilate meditation into one or another self-centered project. With a Zen of "no gain," we step outside of our usual realm of questions and answers, problems and solutions, of the endless treadmill of self-improvement and instead experience the completeness of our life as it already is.
There were no blogs in Dogen's time. There was no YouTube when Sawaki was alive. There was no CNN, no punk rock bands nor even any bass guitars during Buddha's lifetime.
Yeah, we don't need to add all this angsty western punk crap to our zen practice!
I have two responses, 4.35am.
1. No, you don't. Not if you don't want to.
2. Zazen is zazen. Angsty western punk crap is Angsty western punk crap. Do one, or the other, both or neither. What's the problem?
I have two more:
3. Do Zazen...and live your life.
4. Or, if you prefer, leave home, get thee to a nunnery, shave your head and observe every one of the 348 (for ladies) vinaya precepts, like a Proper Buddhist.
Go to "Talks" and find an excellent archive of dharma talks.
Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
Thanks for the Barry Magid link, jem. I'd not come across him before. Some very good stuff there.
...also thank you Lone Wolf for the quotes.
And the captcha is....somelick. Truly.
Barry Magid is awesome I always loved Eve of destruction too.
crowrat
"There were no blogs in Dogen's time. There was no YouTube when Sawaki was alive. There was no CNN, no punk rock bands nor even any bass guitars during Buddha's lifetime."
Thanks. You are so awesome and informative, Brad. Just watching you on YouTube makes me wet. And I'm not even a chick. I just get so excited I pee myself.
So master Dogen didn't have any opinion at all about cybersanghas? Was master Kodo opposed to Big Mind seminars? How did the Buddha view combining zazen with the Alexander technique? Did the Buddha often tell those he disliked to fuck-off? What are the pali words for fuck off anyway?
Just re-heard a favourite old joke:
A social worker calls to the house of an 11 year-old kid who has been missing a lot of school lately. She rings the door bell and, a few minutes later, the kid answers in a silk smoking jacket with a big cigar in his mouth, he's holding a big glass of brandy, and there are two half naked hookers dancing around to techno music in the hallway.
Social worker says, "Are your parents at home, young man?"
Kid says, "What the fuck do you think!"
Regards,
H.
kamesu Asaadhu
Troy Troi: When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.
Troy Troi: If a man dwells on the past, then he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future. The seeds of our destiny are nurtured by the roots of our past.
Thankyou for the pebble master Po.
I'm off to Thailand for rough sex now.
108 said
If you think the truth can only be expressed in erudite philosophical formulations, then Brad is definitely not your man. And Zen is probably not your way.
There is silence and simplicity which speaks endless wisdom, and bull shitting and simple mindedness because someone lacks anything of substance to say.
"Sit Down and Shut Up" was dumbed down Dogen and a lot of the author bull shitting his understanding.
Troy Troi: Why go all the way to Thailand when you can slap yourself in the face while watching porno?
THANKS BRAD!
LUV U
To Anonymous 10:14 AM
Who wrote:
"There is silence and simplicity which speaks endless wisdom, and bull shitting and simple mindedness because someone lacks anything of substance to say."
And then wrote:
""Sit Down and Shut Up" was dumbed down Dogen and a lot of the author bull shitting his understanding."
There were no blogs in Dogen's time. There was no YouTube when Sawaki was alive. There was no CNN, no punk rock bands nor even any bass guitars during Buddha's lifetime.
Heard that the Buddha played a mean sitar though. Shredded some licks and smashed a few onstage from time to time. :)
Ok, now I am done. :p
wow...you guys really like to over-think these posts, don't you?
Ginger: You just think we over-think these posts.. Actually they are very under-thought.
CAPTCHA : raire : I kid you not
I do think there is great truth and deep wisdom in what ginger says.
I've noticed that Troy in particular gets very upset.
There is no real meal beyond Brad's fast food drive through.
"Sit Down and Shut Up" was dumbed down Dogen.
Maybe Anonymous can set up his Anonymous Zen Blog and we can all go and bask in the glow of his wisdom. Or maybe it's waaaay easier to criticize than to say something of sense.
Tomorrow's Friday, that means my article on Dzogchen, "Maha Ati: Natural Liberation Through Primordial Awareness" appears at BuddhistGeeks.com
Captcha: blatunt -I kid you long time!
If anyone on this Blog, including Jinz, Harry, or Anon #108, can produce a published work such as "Hardcore Zen", please step up.
If Mr. Warner can complete a work such as Dogen's "Shōbōgenzō", please step up.
If Dogen could have completed a work such as Milton's "Paradise Lost", please step up.
No one's opinion, or philosophy, is greater or less than anyone else's.
I like that MGMT song. I like the other albums too. Thanks for mentioning the new album. I had forgotten all about it.
Are you recording anything new with Dimentia 13 these days?
If you meant that you couldn't stand the shitty music that is written in response to the garbage drugs that apparently kicked the wee pussy little asses 'o the masses, then I can see why this may be your current "favorite song." Otherwise, it blows ass.
Thanks John! I just finished Magid's book. It was super insightful. He really penetrates the heart of Sawaki's "Zazen is useless" statement and allowed me to consciously see many of the gaining ideas I've been sitting with even though I felt I was "just sitting."
A student, who worked with disabled children, asked Kobun Chino Roshi how she could best help the children. Kobun replied "No thought of helping."
Hi anon @ 8.18pm,
Are you the anon that wrote this:
"Sit Down and Shut Up" was dumbed down Dogen and a lot of the author bull shitting his understanding."
And then wrote this:
"No one's opinion, or philosophy, is greater or less than anyone else's." ? |
Bodhi Day? Schmodie Day!
One of American Hardcore author Steven Bush's favorite hardcore bands is Zero Defex from Akron, Ohio! Click on the sentence to go read him say it!
Also I now have a French author page. So go see that if you're French or Canadian or Ghanian or wherever else-ian where they speak French.
Also part two of my interview on Dr. Dick's Sex Advise is up. So you can go listen to that.
Yesterday I went to the John Lennon memorial in Central Park on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of Lennon's death. I didn't shoot this video. But this is pretty much a visual account of what I experienced when I was there (you just don't get a sense of how frikkin' COLD it was):
I think I must have gotten there a few hours after whoever shot this video. But it was basically the same scene. And I stayed for just about as long as this video runs. I think I heard three or four songs. I couldn't see the musicians, just like whoever took this video couldn't. I think they were in the center of the circle somewhere. There was a trumpet player joining in by the time I got there. I don't know how anyone could play guitar in that cold. Then again, it was freezing cold on the roof of the Apple offices when The Beatles played their final concert (the one filmed for Let It Be).
When I posted some of this same stuff on Facebook, some people there marveled at the fact that I would post about John Lennon's death rather than about Bodhi Day, the supposed day of Buddha's enlightenment, which also is commemorated on December 8th.
But Bodhi Day never meant all that much to me. None of the teachers I sat with ever made a big deal out of it or held Rohatsu Sesshins, which is the common practice in a lot of Zen centers this time of year. Nishijima Roshi was always a bit of a curmudgeon about anything that seemed the least bit ceremonial or superstitious. I think the idea of doing a special sesshin on a day when Buddha probably didn't even actually get enlightened seemed pretty ridiculous to him.
I don't feel like it maters much. Sometimes you just pick an arbitrary time to do a thing, and doing a sesshin around December 8th is as good as any other day. So why not? I'm planning on attending a rohatsu sesshin this weekend here in New York.
But I do tend to agree with Nishijima's feelings about making certain days more "holy" than other ones. I mean, I love Christmas even though I'm not a Christian. But it's no more or less holy than any other day.
The idea of things like a Christmas ceasefire in a war always baffled me. I mean if you can have a ceasefire on December 25th, why not just stop firing at each other all together? Makes no sense to me.
I sit zazen every single day unless some really difficult circumstance prevents it. That's the most essential part of Buddhist practice. Saving all your zazen up for a sesshin in early December makes no more sense to me than calling a ceasefire on Christmas. It's sort of the same attitude, really. Of course it's a less violent expression of that attitude. But it's still pretty much coming from the same place.
94 comments:
Oh mommy, oh daddy, I am a big old baddy!!
ftw!
P.S. Brad, if the soldiers had stopped fighting permanently, they would have been court-martialled and shot, sadly.
Robert, true. But if the folks in charge can call a ceasefire for Dec. 25th, why not just keep it going?
Not always so.
Yep, humans are weird. I guess they didn't want to, although a spell in the trenches might have changed their minds.
It's like when you are kept awake at night by pointless worrying - can take a while to see how futile it is so you can drop it & enjoy peace again.
'course it's time for a new blog post, iddn't it?
capcha: vixons (!)
A Christmas cease fire is a pretty old fashioned idea. Now it is a prime opportunity for a surprise attack. Better chance of maximum casualties.
just give 'em all kiyosakus and let them all aim at each other's soldiers shoulders! (see previous post for reference)
capcha: reste
Brad, No matter what the ocassion, are you saying sesshin is just a way to compensate for a lack of daily zazen discipline?
My bodhi lies over the ocean.
My bodhi lies over the sea.
My bodhi lies over the ocean.
Oh, bring back my bodhi to me.
(Repeat 108 times for maximum effectiveness.)
The quote in context:
Interviewer: "You spotlight the handful of big, iconic hardcore groups like Black Flag and the Misfits and Minor Threat. Who’s the best band outside of those big five or six?"
The Guy (Steven BLush not Bush): "SS Decontrol [SSD] in Boston. A band I really like in Akron, Ohio: Zero Defex. The Big Boys in Texas. JFA in Phoenix. Battalion of Saints in San Diego."
so yeah, when in Akron, check 'em out kindda thing;
Perhaps the cold got to your fingers - three spelling mistakes in this one. Plus, Ghanaians don't speak French, but their English is usually excellent.
Word verification - micate
...and that's not counting 'frikking', which is just wierd
Yeah, but wierd is weirder batmonkey..
captcha - dishorr
Hoisted with his own petard.
when a whole sangha during a hard practice rohatsu sesshin is going all out 'kensho' 'kensho'
(like telling a team of huskies to 'mush,' 'mush!')
everyone there is contributing to the conditions which may bring about "E"
Something like everyone who puts a dollar in contributes to the pot o' gold of the lucky lotto winner
your friend's shoulders, Brad, and her tears are everybit a contributing factor to the three who got 'e'd: not because her shoulders got bruised or because she cried, but the fact she was there at all, and of course, had she not been there, then her non-attendance would have been a contributing factor: the universe as it is.
your friend doesn't come up a loser or a victim unless she sees herself in this light; she is a vital participant, self chosen to be there and then at that place and time.
Is the problem 'I went on a sesshin to find enlightenment and all I got were these lousey bruises?'
How 'bout the bruises of the three who got 'e'd--maybe your friend didn't get bruised up enough!
Would she be complaining about her bruises if she were one of the three? Would she think the 'stick of discipline' had anything to do with it if she had been one of the three?
(doesn't enlightenment on skype look just like bruises?--heh, heh, those weren't bruises she was showin' ya Brad, and those weren't hugh shoulders neither--check out an anatomy book and see for yourself!)
Why does anyone go searching for particular places to practice or particular lineages?
I wanted to recommend to seriously interested students a rinzai place I sat on saturdays. I called the head of the sangha to ask if I could do so and she discouraged this.
She did not want looky-loos weekend traffic coming through her zendo.
At the time I didn't get it.
She was right.
don't know what is being referred to above?
see Brad's post:
OK. I got a new Suicide Girls blog up. It's called Living Simply and you can find it by clicking on the words "Living Simply." How simple is that? And this is the safe-for-work site. No naked boobies or buttocks!
Got a Skype call last night from a friend of mine in Japan. She had just returned from a 5-day Zen retreat in another lineage, which shall remain nameless but rhymes with Barada Basutani. She showed me these big huge bruises on both shoulders from severe beatings with the kiyosaku (stick of discipline). She said they didn't even stop smacking her when she cried. Guys in the zendo were yelling "Mu! Mu! Muuuuuuu!" as they sat. Apparently of her group three people got enlightenment. She was not one of them.
The whole thing sounded intensely ridiculous and even comical. I'm glad I never went to any of those kinds of Zen retreats. I would have rejected it right away. Maybe when I'm not so tired I'll write up a piece on why this kind of practice is so incredibly silly.
For now I'm just baffled.
That would be the Sanbo Kyodan style of Zen. Not only that, but also parading "enlightened" participants around at the end of the retreat and publishing reports of their experiences in their publications. The Sanbo Kyodan style of practice is controversial, even in Japanese Zen. So it is a little dismaying that it has been such a dominant force in American Zen, even if most American groups have toned down this style of practice.
The point is that this style of practice is designed to create experiences. Experiences are easy to come by. When you start to meditate you magnify every little thing, some out of the ordinary physical experience or momentary cessation of thought, into some grand experience. As you continue to meditate there are more genuine experience, some sudden understanding or feeling of compassion or overwhelming joy. But these are only experiences. As Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche once said, "If one of my students says that they have had an experience and asks if it is enlightenment, I definitely can say that that is not the case." The difference is that experiences come and go, but enlightenment is what you always have been, but have failed to recognize. Experiences are good if they inspire you, but bad if you fixate on them and try to get them back on increase them.
Talk about enlightenment is paradoxical and it's easy to fall to two extremes, either to think that you need to work very hard and that will produce enlightenment or to think you are enlightened already and all you need to do is relax. Both are half-truths and the full truth is hard to understand. If we fully understood it, we would already be enlightened. I think the best approach is to practice but without any idea of attaining anything, only practice for the sake of improving the practice.
Source - The Careless Hand
Sanbo Kyodan (a.k.a. Sanbô-Kyôdan or Harada-Yasutani school, literally "Three Treasures Religious Organization") is an independent lay school of Japanese Zen in the Sōtō tradition, employing approaches from both the Rinzai and Soto schools. The school is rooted in the teachings of Harada Daiun Sogaku and was founded by Yasutani Haku'un in 1954—Yasutani having broken away from the Sōtō school that same year. The schools' headquarters are based in Kamakura, Japan. While the schools' tenets are based upon Buddhist teaching, not all teachers in the lineage consider themselves Buddhist.
Source: Wikipedia
There is a Philip Kapleau and SFZC connection.
And I got to see Leonard Cohen on "Rohatsu day."
So there!
when a bodhi meets a bodhi
comin' through th' rye
Also: re: holidays: Our family tradition is to bring a plastic tree into our living room, because the whole season's absurd to begin with, and nothing says absurdity like plastic?
Of course that's form for you.
No wonder some people see BDSM undertones in Buddhism. Wacking people with a stick, bowing and submission, playing dress-up...and for what...this mystical hocus pocus about enlightenment that people who aren't enlightened make up in their heads with complete and utter seriousness?
This would be sad if it weren't so funny.
I believe Brad has some interest in BDSM. But that apparently isn't something he feels comfortable talking about, at least on his blog. In his last podcast he mentioned the compassion in Sadism.. But maybe I'm imagining things.
Robert said, "If the soldiers had stopped fighting permanently, they would have been court-martialled and shot, sadly."
Who the fuck would be bad-ass enough to court-martial and shoot an entire army let alone two armies?
The answer is no government could do it or would even try to do it.. In WW1 the Governments of Germany and England freaked when they heard about the soldier' holiday truce. With some leadership the war might have ended right there.
CAPTCHA : antibis : I kid you not
Ghana is anglosaxophone.
As for sesshins and rohatsu sesshins, they remind me of those couch potatoes who, once in a while get excited, get in their shorts, do a whole day of sports, and go back to their couch.
And the month in which the Buddha is supposed to have been enlightened was something like May. I just cannot manage to understand how the Japanese came to set that in December...
Steve Bush? Another Bush brother? Yikes!
I love the simplicity of the Idea that the people in charge could continue a ceasefire and everyone would fall in line. Sounds like a genuine John Lennon inspired aspiration.
However, It only takes one wackjob or person with another agenda or even an accident to set the whole thing in motion again. Until the people who are committed to peace and simplicity outnumber those who have other commitments the process will not reach critical mass.
The Dhamma is not the only wheel that continues to turn.
Apparently of her group three people got enlightenment.
What do you mean by 'enlightenment'? What does that word mean in your tradition?
Imagine there's no countries...
Oops, stone from glass house - in too much of a hurry to be hubristic - hanging head in shame
Who stole my name! No worries there impostor. We're *all* doing the mind guerrilla here.
JIM MORRISON PARDONED!!!
Outrageous if you ask me, john e. The guy got his penis out in front of people! Dirty sod.
Smashing chat with Dr Dick, Brad. Lots of fun and lots of sense.
A while back I posted a couple of comments on this blog which indicated that I have previously masturbated to pornographic images on the internet.
Don't think I am not ashamed.
I here confess all sins that I may have committed with body, speech and mind, and through lust, anger and stupidity.
Sorted.
Malcolm, you're going to hell, obviously. Or at least your hands are. Look again at the link I posted, tell me about it!
It's filth, john. Pure filth. You're coming with me.....to hell, I mean :/
At least Hell will have a rocking band..
anon #108 said:
It's filth, john. Pure filth. You're coming with me.....to hell, I mean :/
Pure filth is the best. I hate that filth that has added high fructose corn syrup, modified food starch, and preservatives.
Pure filth is the easiest to clean, cleaning the additives could take you ages.
But it won't necessarily make you a living.
You need to adjust the purity of the product to the purity of the consumers.
This is the American way.
Spread worldwide. The single mindedness of businessmen aimed exclusively at making more of what is as far as possible from the essence.
Hi 7:35, - try and reconsider.
"Going?" I'm here already, baby, transmitting disembodied messages from the pit. Mr. D. sez "hey."
Remember the lotion, 108, the internet is great down here, but you'll also need it for the sunburn, its hell (after all).
(P.S. "Pure Filth" is the name of my straight edge hc (hades core) band featuring Vince/Ziggy/Jim: "The Dead Boys" was already taken)
I meant "Coming" not "Going" I guess (heh, you wrote "coming! what a perv")
captcha: option
I mean they’re not really short, are they? “At least”? They might willingly spare a few.
Does Hell really need another musician.? I don't think so.
aloodo
The Christmas halt to killing and violence during war time is just an extension of what its like sometimes in normal daily life. Most families are at war until christmas day, or is it just christmas morning? of course this comes after the intense warring in the shops just before. Maybe Xmas day isnt a peace offering, people are just worn out!
“Nishijima Roshi was always a bit of a curmudgeon about anything that seemed the least bit ceremonial or superstitious” – I recall him sprinkling water to purify the air before a Shiho ceremony, and as I tried to figure out why were we chanting the Heart Sutra daily (on days Nishijima was in the Dojo, and in which I didn’t usually participate) it seemed he wasn’t extremely enthusiastic about letting me know, so I just let it be.
“I think the idea of doing a special seshin on a day when Buddha probably didn't even actually get enlightened seemed pretty ridiculous to him” – I also severely doubt that.
Seeing a day as “holy” might have been beneficial as for the feelings it might have raised in earlier times.
But today too, - for people who don’t sit Zazen every day, which is the great majority of humanity, - (or those who do sit only once or twice a day and live a rather regular “normal” life, too, I think) having these days and customs which set our structure and rhythm of life in a way, is not devoid of value.
And calling a ceasefire on Christmas doesn’t seem ridiculous at all to me. It’s like you want to have a fight with someone but his granma’s sick, - so you respect that and you delay whatever you do until he's done with that. It rather reminds people there are more important things than their war, and it would contribute too to the spirit in which it would be continued afterwards. And of course you can’t expect them to stop the war because of that. They’ve got some conflict they didn’t seem to be able to settle otherwise.
- Seshins ga:
If one is sitting daily and wants to increase the amount of sitting he might. But beyond some point I’d say it’s better to have a seshin once in a while. - Assuming one is doing four sittings a day, - it might be more reasonable (I mean as more valuable practice, not as more convenient, - which it may be too, and may contribute to the practice in that too) to have a seshin once a month than to add a fifth sitting.
And at a point after that it may be reasonable to add a Rohatsu Seshin once a year.
WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks. Source - The Australian
verifaction - skerrhy
Eknath Easwaran on the Buddha's Right Speech
mirror
What is THIS?
attributed to a Gary Larson cartoon:
Split picures/captions:
Welcome to Heaven (offers violins to the new arrivals)
Welcome to Hell (hands out accordions)
You can thank the Democrats for the bulbs hysterion.
Secular Buddhist Podcast
Episode 24 :: Stephen Batchelor :: Secular Buddhism Arising
"A secular approach is not a dumbing down, it's not reductively identifying Buddhism with one or two particular techniques of meditation, but it is actually a complete world view and way of life in this world." -- Stephen Batchelor
____________________________
Episode 40 :: Glenn Wallis :: The Problem With Beliefs
wow, dr dick is quite the character
captcha: dorke
As the matter of “secular” Buddhism have seemed to come up again, - an impossible combination which either originates at the minds of the likes of Mysterion or is aimed at pleasing such, I have somewhat referred here earlier, - but it seems to make appropriate bringing up a thought I had after that: - (- and before that too, I think)
The question of whether Buddhism believes in “God” or does not believe in “God” is the wrong question at the outset.
It expresses two dimensional lifeless minds only relying on words blind to what stands behind them, - (which I may be too, to some extent, [as for the last six words] but then that is a different matter) therefore seeking the truth in a stupid puddle of their inherited ideas, - some of which they earn simply because of their evident unwillingness to receive better ones.
However: - the correct question, - as I would say, - would be, - to what extent would the western concept of “God” fit the reality to which Master Dogen (among others) refers to?
That which is referred to as “Brahman” in Hinduism. Though seem to be there differently described.
The question is not whether Buddhism believes in the western “God”, - [!] but to what extent does the concept or description of “God” we hear of in the west actually reflect that which I would say today Buddhism would give a far better description or indication of; to the extent it can be described at all.
It is what Dogen calls “the self” and Nishijima “the ineffable”, (I intentionally didn't pick “the universe”) which is not merely a world view but the universe itself inseparable from the way you see it and you as the viewer itself.
May all stupid beings attain to the blessings of the Dharma and have a merry Christmas.
(And no offence intended at Mysterion this time. [line 4 - i.e.])
non - aggression
hysterion: In December 2007, Congress, led by Democrats, passed the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, which, among other things, banned most incandescent light bulbs beginning in 2012. The act also contained a renewable fuel standard (RFS) which mandated increased ethanol production and led to food shortages in 2008, as well as several other mandates. Democrats as usual screwed the pooch as well as American light bulb manufactuers.
Good Lord, Ran!
For someone who says "The question of whether Buddhism believes in “God” or does not believe in “God” is the wrong question at the outset," you've got an awful lot to say about the subject. Do you think it's possible that you might be *only relying on words blind to what stands behind you*? - After all, you've used a few words yourself: "It is what Dogen calls “the self” and Nishijima “the ineffable”, (I intentionally didn't pick “the universe”)..."
I don't mind at all hearing what you believe or have to say about “god”, “the self”, “the ineffable” or "the universe" ...the only belief of yours I object to is your frequently stated belief that you are surrounded by stupid beings: everything you write is coloured by it.
(Nice to see you finally articulating what you really think instead of hiding behind all that silly punctuation/can't speak English nonsense. I look forward to more :))
- - my apologies for any offence or upset caused, Ran. I've had a particularly good day, full of creative activity with like-minded people...I had to take it out on somebody.
That wiki link sadly omits Abaris of Hyperborea, who was also known as "Skywalker."
A wonderful revisionist essay has just been published by Peter Kingsley (all of his books are excellent -I reviewed his last prior to the present volume, titled REALITY for Sufi Journal in 2005 or so) titled A STORY WAITING TO PIERCE YOU [isbn 978-189035021-5].
Mysterion is the sickest Buddhist.
only to find gideon's bible...
I just watched a French film called Joyeux Noel last week that was about a Christmas cease fire during WW1. Not bad! It was faintly surreal.
- 108, - it’s a bit like you didn’t read my comment.
I’ve related to part of a way in which you seem to misunderstand what I’m trying to say in the comment I linked there. Seems like you didn’t read it, though I assume you naturally would. Try and see my last one as a continuation to what's over there.
[and - btw - six words only account to “blind to what stands behind them”, (- try and count, - as Alice might innocently suggest to Humpty Dumpty) and “them” refers to the words, - not to the minds. - mind you.]
And as for “my frequently stated belief that I am surrounded by stupid beings”, - you’ve got a teacher. You’re exaggerating what I say, but you might try and ask him as for the amount of truth in that.
Dogen doesn’t use the expression “stupid secular people” for nothing.
[- and as for “everything I write”, - check out one comment earlier as an example.
(- 10:32 am)]
- And - I don’t really think I was hiding behind anything. I really don’t see myself reading all the stuff people put up here; In Hebrew it would be much easier, - (אפילו אם הכאב ראש בסוף יעבר) But still much reading doesn’t do me much good.
- Didn’t get your point about the punctuation, and the next time you feel like getting at someone - try Mysterion. - Though you should be very very very very very carful before saying “I look forward to more” than. Though I think he’s compulsive, it doesn’t necessarily matter.
Cheers, -
Only the wise
I marvel that anyone still gives a shit about John Lennon.
SOME SANSKRITISMS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT GOSPELS-New Testament Gospels and their Sanskrit sources.
____________
Homer's epics and Mark's gospel share story structure and settings:
the first half of both the Odyssey and the Gospel involves adventures at sea and places near the sea with winds, waves and ships prominent.
The first half of each is replete with travels and stories; while the last section of each narrates in detail the climactic contest between the hero and the evil rulers who want him dead.
both Odysseus and Jesus must keep their identities secret so not to be killed prematurely, but in both cases their godlike strength often threatens to give them away and they must silence anyone who learns their identity (unless the rulers already overheard)
the audience knows from the beginning of both the Iliad and the Gospel that the heroes (Achilles/Hector, Jesus) will die
the hero's companions (Odysseus' crew; Jesus' disciples) begin the story as devoted, loyal and likeable, but as the plot unfolds they are increasingly seen to lack the depth of character to endure hardship and suffering, and in both stories they are all lost before the end
Thanks for the reply, Ran.
We can only do our best, all of us - the stupid and the wise.
(captcha says deled....?)
צר לי כי אתה סובל עם מיגרנה
Is that right?
This link somehow gets truncated when I post it..strange! I'll split it up, 'cause its worth a look imo:
images/SpiritualTradition.pdf
It is a compilation of Peter Kingsley quotes...
(- to 108, before the last one)
Rather wrong, “מיגרנה” is Hebrew for Migraine.
It's not like just getting a headache from too much reading.
And I noticed at the bottom I've written “necessarily”. It should be “really”. I thought this was what I've written.
- And - talking about the stupid proudly displaying their stupidity: - see the one just after my own, - @ 4:12 am.
I'm slowly speed-reading through your link, john....
Parmenides "The Sound of Silence" (part 4) describes syrigmos,the noise of a syrinx, "a piping, whistling, hissing noise" - one of the "signs that mark the point of entry into another world: into another state of awareness that’s neither waking nor sleep."
That perfectly describes my and many other people's tinnitus. The Heller-Bergman experiment (1953) revealed that nearly everyone with normal hearing exposed to total silence for a few minutes (in an anechoic chamber) becomes aware of tinnitus sounds, which disappear as soon as they're back in a sound-enriched environment. Now that I hear my tinnitus all the time, I'm pretty sure I recall hearing the same thing in my childhood as I was waiting to fall asleep in the silence.
Just sayin.
I'll carry on for a bit...
This is the awareness known to Greeks as mêtis.
Mêtis is the particular quality of intense alertness that can be effortlessly aware of
everything at once. While our wandering minds go off on their endless journeys, it al-
ways stays at home. And its home is everywhere. Mêtis feels, listens, watches; can even
be aware at the same time, if left to itself, of every thought drifting into and out of our
consciousness. It misses nothing.
This is how the circle begins.
When we really become aware of the sights and sounds and other impressions coming
from all around us, after a while there is no longer the sense of just hearing and seeing
this or that: instead, there is the awareness of everything as forming a single whole.
Everything is exactly what it is, and always has been — but as a continuity now, all to-
gether, without any separation or division. And in this wholeness even the past and fu-
ture start to merge until they are no longer separate. For they are both included in the
now.
Then even the sense of any motion disappears. Mêtis is so fast in its response, so rapid in
its alertness to the moment, that any movement is only perceived as stillness. But, by
now, instead of just perceiving a tree or a chair you have become aware that you are
perceiving one single being: whole, unmoving, quite still. And eventually, if you look,
you will discover that instead of you perceiving reality what in fact is happening is that
reality is perceiving itself through you.
This is how the circle ends. - Peter Kingsley, REALITY p186-187
Ooo...here's another bit -
"We are constantly being bombarded by thoughts and perceptions. Whatever we see or hear, every idea that enters our minds, sends us off into a maze of thoughts about the
past and future. Our whole lives are an incoherently coherent picture of reeling from one impulse to another, of always struggling for the completeness no one quite manages to find. We try to discover it by making plans that will lead to fulfilment in some future; but the greater the effort, the further it slips away.
For the only completeness is now."
- Peter Kingsley.
Thanks, john.
Yer welcome Malcolm. As I said up there at 3:34 PM, all of his writing is worth a longer look. He turned his back on academia but continues to use the apparatus: his new book is 1/2 footnotes. An interesting thinker, I had many a late night chat w/him while writing the REALITY review.
...Would love to have been a fly on the wall, john!
I've just got to where you're bit came from. So, for completeness, here's the bit that comes between the bit I just quoted and the bit you just quoted - which nicely ties in with the tinnitus bit, too:
."
(Which is all very relevant to what gniz and I have been tossing back and forth recently...)
Hi anon @ 4.37am (re Sanskritisms in the New Testament) -
THIS guy disagrees with Christian Lindtner's theory.
And so does THIS one.
(Me? Dunno. It's a nice idea).
John Lennon was killed on Bodhi Day
Siddhartha looked up and saw the Morning Star.
Mark David Chapman wasn’t paying attention.
That’s because he had a gun in his pocket.
Life is like that.
Even on a cold and very short day. |
“American Hearts” by A.A. Bondy
Click here to download the mp3 of this good song, through Amazon.com
Part of a new generation of musicians whose songs I appreciate, A.A. (Auguste Arthur) Bondy recorded his first solo album in 2007 and it is the title song, “American Hearts” that is the HarryShots.com Song of the Day. HL
Click These Songs to Go to the Post
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- GO VOTE FOR SOMEONE. YOUR CHOICE. TODAY. NOW.
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- STEVE EARLE WEEK at HarryShots we start with “Ft. Worth Blues” by Steve Earle
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- “Roll Um Easy” by J.D. Souther
- “The Parting Glass” by Cara Dillon
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- “Sixteenth Avenue” by Lacy J. Dalton
- “I Killed Walter Matthau” by Steve Poltz
- “Sing, Sing, Sing” (With A Swing) by Benny Goodman
- “I’m A Believer” by The Monkees
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- “Guitar Town” by Emmylou Harris
- “Colfax” by Kevin Gordon
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- “Little Martha” by Leo Kottke
- “Whipping Post” by Mountain Heart
- “One Hundred Million Years” by M. Ward
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- “Long Line of Losers” by Kevin Fowler
- “It’s Hard to Kiss the Lips at Night That Chew Your Ass Out All Day Long” by The Notorious Cherry Bombs [Vince Gill on lead vocals]
- “I’ll Change Your Flat Tire, Merle” by Pure Prairie League
- “Beer Season” by Thom Shepherd
- “Beer, Bait, and Ammo” by Kevin Fowler
- “The Wedding Song” by Charlie Robison and Natalie Maines
- “Pony Boy” by The Allman Brothers
- “I’ll Never Find Another You” by The Seekers
- “Long Time Gone” by The Dixie Chicks
- “My Old Man” by Rosanna Goodman
- “Hey” by Karen Peck and New River
- “Catfish John” (studio outtake) by The Grateful Dead
- “Legend of the U.S.S. Titanic” by Jaime Brockett
- “Late In The Evening” by Paul Simon
- “It’s Late” by Ricky Nelson
- “Sheraton Gibson” by Pete Townshend
- “Bella Notte” from Lady and The Tramp (Disney)
- “Black Water” by The Doobie Brothers
- “Passing By” by Cary Hudson
- “Tennessee Waltz” by Hem
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- “Hey Conductor” by Dave Carter and Tracy Grammer
- “Tuscaloosa Suntan” by Lipbone Redding
- “Show Me The Road” by Harvey Reid
- “Wide River to Cross” by Buddy Miller
- “Walking In Memphis” by Marc Cohn
- “Gentle Annie” by Kate and Anna McGarrigle (Transatlantic Sessions)
- “(Talk to Me of) Mendocino” by Kate and Anna McGarrigle
- “Come A Long Way” (remastered) by Kate and Anna McGarrigle
- “The Swimming Song” by Loudon Wainwright III
- “Swimming Song” by Kate and Anna McGarrigle
- “My Little Girl” by Pierce Pettis
- “Tour of Duty” by Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit
- “Your Long Journey” by Robert Plant and Alison Krauss
- Alabama Alma Mater by The University of Alabama Million Dollar Band
- “The Old Plank Road” by Robin and Linda Williams
- “I Remember You” by Frank Ifield
- “Courtin’ In The Kitchen” by Gaelic Storm
- “I Am The Light of This World” by Jorma Kaukonen
- “Unwed Fathers” by Ben Kyle and Carrie Rodriguez
- “Pied Piper” by Crispian St. Peters
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- “Pachelbel Canon” by The Canadian Brass
- “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing” by The Mormon Tabernacle Choir
- “Suo Gan” by John Williams, from the movie soundtrack of Empire of the Sun
- Christmas Medley by Placido Domingo
- “Last Month of the Year” by the Tarbox Ramblers
- “Beautiful Star of Bethlehem” by John Starling
- “The Christmas Song” (Chestnuts Roasting by An Open Fire) by Mel Torme
- “Beautiful Star of Bethlehem by Faith, Family, and Friends
- “The Holly and The Ivy” by The New York Choral Artists
- “Silver Bells” by Margaret Whiting and Jimmy Wakely
- “Sleigh Ride” by Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops
- “Beautiful Star of Bethlehem” by Jerry Douglas
- “Go Tell It On the Mountain” by Eric Kunzel and the Cincinnati Pops
- “Love’s Old Sweet Song” by Thurl Ravencroft and The Mellomen
- “Stand By Me” by The Groovegrass Boyz
- “Too Sick to Pray” by Phosphorescent
- “Suo Gan” by Marge Butler
-
- “Statistician’s Blues” by Todd Snider
- “The Parting Glass” by The Wailin’ Jennys
- “Steam Powered Aereo Plane” by New Grass Revival
- “Macire” by Boubacar Traore
- “Crossroads” by Leslie West
- “Blooming Heather” by Kate Rusby
- “Long Black Veil” by Harry Manx
- “Sowin’ On the Mountain” by Marley’s Ghost
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- “Up Memphis Blues” by Tommy Womack
- “Sail Away Odyssey” by Erik Darling
- “Walking In Jerusalem” by Jason Eady
- “Con Te Partiro” by Andrea Bocelli
- “Coal War” by Joshua James
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- “Juarez” by Brad Colerick
- “Calling Trains” by unknown train announcer |
Gabe Stulman, Owner, Perla, Fedora, Joseph Leonard & Jeffrey’s
& O'Donoghue."
Andrew Tarlow, Owner, Marlow & Sons, Diner, Reynard, Roman's
"It's simple. Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue are the best."
John Fraser, Chef/Owner, Dovetail
In the way that we, at Dovetail, have the goal to not only satisfy your hunger and quench your thirst but to provide the experience in a sophisticated way, Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue care not only about the outcome but the experience as well. I highly recommend them for all of the legal needs of your restaurant.
Brad McDonald, Chef/Owner, Governor, Colonie, Gran Electrica
"These guys are the real motherf***ing Esquires. In my short time knowing David, Joseph, and Kevin, their industry-specific legal knowledge has been invaluable to my company and its swift growth. The three make a dynamic legal trio, and we feel extremely comfortable having them as a part of our extended team. Their passion for food and hospitality is second only to their passion to protect and serve their clients. They take a strong interest in our work, and are constantly on site with us to see and taste what's new. It's their straightforward honesty that I value the most. I simply couldn't imagine using anyone else."
Justin Gallaher, Owner, Vinegar Hill House
"Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue represent me on multiple fronts: SLA litigation, corporate stock transfers, partnership agreements as well as general consultation. Unlike other lawyers in this same industry, they are accessible, courteous, and thoroughly knowledgable. They understand my objectives and develop strategies to meet my goals, working around new legislation and short time frames. My only regret is that I did not use their practice to secure any of my liquor licenses or negotiate any leases. I wish I had. To anyone in the industry seeking representation, I wouldn't bother calling anyone else."
Doug Crowell, Owner, Buttermilk Channel
"When you're opening a restaurant it's so important to have lawyers who are not only trustworthy and competent, but who also know the ins and outs of our industry. There are so many unique aspects to our business and David, Joseph and Kevin."
Matt Levine, Owner, Sons of Essex, Cocktail Bodega
Helbraun & Levey are the best in the business - extremely attentive, organized and responsible when it comes to all of my legal hospitality needs.
St. John Frizell, Owner, Fort Defiance
"I wish I had met the good lawyers at Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue four years ago, when I first started navigating the complicated legal side of the restaurant business. I'm convinced that they would have saved me thousands of dollars, as well as much time and frustration. In the past few months, though, they've made up for lost time by representing me at DOH tribunals, fighting like lions against the tyranny of city government. I'm awed by the skill and intelligence of their staff, and I look forward to working with the firm in years to come."
Amy Marks, Owner, Radish
"We started talking to David long before we opened our business, long before we found our space. With all his experience in working in the food business, he was extremely helpful across many different areas of our business. We had many, many conversations before we even found our space and he helped us through a lot of the process from helping us shape our ideas to making introductions to his contacts in the industry. He has now been with us for over a year and a half, through the ups and downs of new partnerships and the formation of our new businesses. He is not only a great lawyer, he has also proved to be a valuable mentor throughout the start-up process. He totally "gets" the industry and is very easy to work with."
Danny Mena, Chef/Owner, Hecho en Dumbo
"I was referred to David and Joseph about 3 years ago, and I have not looked back since. They have a great knowledge of the industry and they know how to get things done in NYC. They are hard working and diligent, but above all sincere. They really do care, and will listen to me when I address concerns and plans. Recently, I have been working with Kevin and he is a great addition to the firm. He is as professional and caring as David and Joseph, and equally as knowledgeable in the field."
Nick Morgenstern, Owner, Goat Town
"From contract negotiations to health department tribunals, Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue have effectively offered my company a full spectrum of legal services, specific to my restaurants needs. These services are provided all under one roof, making them a part of everything I do. I would not work with anyone else."
Jehangir Mehta, Chef/Owner, Graffiti, Mehtaphor
"Being a busy professional with extended work hours, I require to partner with a law firm that is responsive to my requirements, and respectful of my time. I have been working with Helbraun Levey for a long time now because I particularly appreciate its quick turnaround time. Both David and Joseph are very professional and have great legal accumen. Its a pleasure doing business with them."
Dana Lapan, Special Events Manager, Public
We cannot thank Kevin enough for his services; we are so glad that we’ve been connected to such a dedicated lawyer with such an outstanding firm that understands all of our needs. Kevin gathered the facts and handled our DOH hearing with no need for further explanation. Kevin and his team show an enormous amount of knowledge, guidance, skill, and friendliness to help understand the process. I would recommend him to anyone that needs anything within the industry.
Oliver and Leo Kremer, Owners, Dos Toros Taqueria.
Dean Jankelowitz, Owner, Jack's Wife Fred.
Rob Behnke Bowman, CEO and Co-Founder The Brooklyn Salsa Company
The Brooklyn Salsa Company
"While in the start up mode, David was helpful in drafting the necessary documents and was always there to answer the legal questions we needed to know in order to get ready for full potential for success. I would recommend him to any and all start up businesses/entrepreneurs looking to take that next step into their respective markets."
Ross Greenberg, Chef/Owner, Woodwork Wine Bar
"As a first time business owner, the process for opening my bar/restaurant was as daunting as it was exciting. I knew there would be challenges, delays, and problems that I couldn't anticipate. One of the most unexpected and pleasurable experiences was working with Joseph Levey and David Helbraun at Helbraun & Levey LLP. Joseph and David were accessible, thorough and always professional. Their expertise was actually responsible for helping me to open my business BEFORE schedule. I can't thank them enough for the quality of their work and their assistance in making my dream of having my own business a reality."
Colin Barnhart, Owner, Arthur on Smith
“While navigating the many aspects of opening a restaurant it was extremely reassuring to have counsel that was proactively keeping us in the loop and was truly our advocates. Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue LLP will not only be our only attorney’s for current and future projects but will also be the only attorneys we recommend to others.”
Karim el- Antably, Owner, Rocket Joe's Pizza
Helbraun Levey and O'Donoghue is a great team of attorneys to help with any of your needs, from closing a deal to getting your restaurant the grade it deserves. As a new business owner I needed help with the Department of Health. After my initial inspection and being closed due to licence issues and reopening to three more inspections, I needed help with all the inspection reports and getting the grade I deserved. I contacted the firm and asked David (who by the way did a great job closing my deal) if he had anyone who could help. He put me in touch with his partner Kevin. I sent him all the reports and pictures addressing the issues the DOH claimed to be violations. A few weeks later I received an email from Kevin saying " It's an "A" ". He made it very easy and quick for me to get through this. I will continue to use this fine team of attorneys in any of my business needs and highly recommend them to anyone who needs representation or is unhappy where they are now. Its well worth it. Thank you David, Kevin, Jeffery and everyone at Helbraun Levey and O'Donoghue.
Cornelius Gallagher, Chef/Owner, Dragonfly
"From the moment Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue and I started working together, I felt like I was in good hands. The team is extremely capable and experienced. I wouldn’t use anyone else in the future"
Michael Waiser, Owner, Michael Scott Events
Diligence, Professionalism, and fortitude are all characteristic I searched for when attempting to identify the law firm that was going to represent me in my professional capacity as a caterer and event planner in the Tri State area. I have experienced all of these attributes plus so much more In the three years that I have been fortunate enough to be represented by Joseph Levey of Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue. In addition to being a fantastic fundamental lawyer, Joseph has a wealth of knowledge which lends him a great deal of creativity and vision. It is this creative vision that affords him the ability to step outside the box when maneuvering seamlessly through what at the times seem to be impossible situations. On a personal note, for me it is important to think of those protecting my interest as friends, people I can rely on not matter what. These relationships are few and far between, but one that has certainly flourished between Joseph, myself, and multiple officers of my company. I thank Helbraun Levey & O'Donoghue for all the hard work and personal dedication they have put forth in representing both my company as well as my proverbial “family” . Thank you again……
Evan Tobias & Eric Pavony, Full Circle Bar, Williamsburg, Brooklyn
"It was our first bar venture and naturally we were most anxious about the liquor license process. Helbraun & Levey not only assured us moving forward, they taught us about the procedure, the industry and expertly walked us through every step. They made the process easy for us to understand and to execute. Helbraun & Levey were quick to respond to our questions or concerns and we received our full license ahead of schedule. They were a pleasure to work with and are certainly masters of the bar and restaurant business."
Al Martin, Owner, Broadway Comedy Club, New York Comedy Club
Broadway Comedy Club, New York Comedy Club
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China's Nine-Day Traffic Jam Tops 62 Miles 198
A traffic jam on the Beijing-Tibet expressway has now entered its ninth day and has grown to over 62 miles in length. This mother-of-all delays has even spawned its own micro-economy of local merchants selling water and food at inflated prices to stranded drivers. Can you imagine how infuriating it must be to see someone leave their blinker on for 9 days?
i thought they all rode bikes in China (Score:2, Funny)
being how they are the first in the world in being green
Re:i thought they all rode bikes in China (Score:5, Informative)
You're being sarcastic, but this used to be true. Rapid changes in China's internal economic policy have created a growing "middle class" whose buying habits are much like those of American consumers. That includes a new interest in automobiles, as status symbols and otherwise, resulting in China becoming the largest car market in the world. That's right: China now buys more cars than anybody, and that wasn't true just a few years ago. 33 years ago there were only about a million cars in all of China. There are now four million cars on the streets of Beijing alone, and the Chinese bought 13.6 million cars in 2009. Americans only bought 10.4 million.
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That includes a new interest in automobiles, as status symbols and otherwise, resulting in China becoming the largest car market in the world.
One of the ironies of this is that it's probably going to be what saves the American auto industry. The historic dislike of many of the neighboring Asian countries means that a number of the brands that are popular in America have very little of the Chinese market. And American cars are seen very popular and often seen as the luxury alternative to cheap Chinese cars. IIRC, Buicks are quite popular there since that's what the emperor drove back before even rich people could think of owning an automobile ther
USian Cars Fail Chinese Fuel Efficiency Standards (Score:2)
American cars are seen very popular and often seen as the luxury alternative to cheap Chinese cars.
Unfortunately, most of the products of the US car industry are insufficiently fuel efficient to meet China's fuel economy standards. This means US cars have to be built as local Chinese/US ventures, which reduces the economic benefits. It's significant then, that the Chinese versions of US cars are able to economically meet and surpass [cleantechnica.com] China's fuel efficiency standards (5.7 L/100 Km [wikimedia.org])... unlike the domestic US
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being how they are the first in the world in being green
but this used to be true
When did it change, because I'm still hearing folks claim that 'the US is falling behind green China?' Are they talking about the same car buying, coal guzzling, smog breathing, reactor building, dustbowl China we are?
Some half-smart knob is now going to chime in with per-capita this and per-capita that. If there was any doubt that China is climbing the same consuption curve then this nine-day traffic jam dominated by six-month old cars should dispell it. Your per-capita argument has a big fat expiration
Anything America can do, China can do bigger (Score:2)
That was it really.
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Well, yeah, considering you're stuck in that traffic jam.
Holy crap! (Score:3, Funny)
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Walk home and lose your car?
Not in China.
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What kind of penalties do you incur in China for abandoning a car?
Not to mention, how many people in that nightmare pileup have run out of gas?
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Just come back next week (pay attention to the radio for when they report that the jam is easing), and pick up your car.
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Why would he lose the car? Its not like its going anywhere? He can come back and get it next week.
Re:Holy crap! (Score:5, Informative)
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BINGO!
In my county, "rush hour" lasts 5 hours each direction, but few individual cars are in the mire for more than 90 minutes,
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It's not that every vehicle has been stuck in there for nine days: it's that the traffic has been crawling for nine days. Usually a traffic jam clears out at a later hour, but volume is too high even at night.
Sorry, that does not appear to be true [qq.com].
(Scroll down to the guys sitting in a circle in the middle of the road playing cards. That is not "crawling" that is "shut off your engine and sit for days".)
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Re:Holy crap! (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole journey is 3620km long, and takes about 3 days to drive in normal traffic. Traffic is getting through, it is just running slowly because of road works to widen the road. The delays have been going on for 9 days, but that doesn't mean it is the same cars as 9 days ago.
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Huh? Article says: "Thousands of vehicles were bogged down Monday in a more than 100-kilometre (62-mile) traffic jam leading to Beijing that has lasted nine days"
Now maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but it sounds to me
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Huh? Article says: "Thousands of vehicles were bogged down Monday in a more than 100-kilometre (62-mile) traffic jam leading to Beijing that has lasted nine days" Now maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but it sounds to me like there's 60+ miles of traffic and that traffic has been there for 9 days. I understand that a few cars join and other's leave, but it does sound like it's taking days to get through it.
Are you for real? You actually believe its the same cars stuck in there for 9 days and not just a traffic bottleneck being over reported? So later in the article when it says that "The congestion was expected to last into mid-September as the road project will not be finished until then" you actually think the same cars will be stuck in traffic until mid-september?
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So later in the article when it says that "The congestion was expected to last into mid-September as the road project will not be finished until then" you actually think the same cars will be stuck in traffic until mid-september?
Those poor people...
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So later in the article when it says that "The congestion was expected to last into mid-September as the road project will not be finished until then" you actually think the same cars will be stuck in traffic until mid-september?
Those poor people...
I see what you referenced there.
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i'm hoping it's galaxy quest!
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i'm hoping it's galaxy quest!
It was Galaxy Quest. By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Worvan, I had to post that.
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Are you for real? You actually believe its the same cars stuck in there for 9 days and not just a traffic bottleneck being over reported?
I doubt cars have been stuck in there for all 9 days, but keep in mind that there are food and water vendors, which implies that cars are in fact stationary in the same place for an extended period.
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That's the only time in my life that I have been embarassed by Texas (and particularly for some of my extended family who were part of the problem).
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Hey, I like that guy. Of course, I was only talking about what I was embarased by, but the "miss me yet" billboards are showing up in more places in Texas, so I doubt I'm the only one who's OK with him.
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"miss me yet"
No.
Re:Holy crap! (Score:5, Informative)
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Holy bad journalism. That really changes how I look at the problem. Cars just generally suck, but freight trucks are fairly necessary if we want to continue to live in cities.
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It worked out well for Michael Douglas didnt it?
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Still it calls into question at what point should the road just be closed
I'm pretty sure those people are there because they have to be, not because the actually *like* driving 3260km.
So how would closing this mahor highway (thus diverting all that traffic through tiny villages and dirt tracks presumably) enable them to get home any faster ?
That gives me an idea (Score:2, Funny)
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Re:That gives me an idea (Score:4, Funny)
Nah, he could still be Korean and it'd work.
I say nay nay! (Score:3, Informative)
.
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Flied lice ? It is fried rice, you plick !
It's been 1 minute since you last successfully posted a comment
... yes, and it's also been about 10ms since my last neuron fired. Your point was ???
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You funny! I raf out roud!
Idle (Score:5, Funny)
This must be the first time the Idle category is really apt.
Call the Doctor! (Score:5, Funny)
I think I saw this on an episode of Doctor Who.
Not Doctor Who - Omni Magazine, 1979 (Score:5, Interesting)
I really miss Omni Magazine from the late '70s and early '80s, with its bold predictions of the Brave New World coming in the then-distant New Millenium. One of my favorite stories was The Great Moveway Jam [krewedukat.com], a dystopian story of a traffic jam started by a little old lady who put on her left blinker, but turned right.
The story was based in California, 1998-9 -- but China in 2010 makes a lot more sense. Especially since the solution to the jam, which extended "from San Diego to Santa Barbara, and... seventy-nine miles inland", involved building a wall to prevent "jamees" from abandoning their immobile vehicles, and a Final Solution that involved a lot of helicopters, a *whole* lot of cement, and airdropped suicide pills.
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Scary thing is that most every traffic jam currently is caused by that kind of cluelessness. Some asshole cutting someone else off, or turning without adequate warning, and generally not giving two shits about everyone else on the road, and it starts magnifying it's way back until you're stopped: [sciencedaily.com]
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You're thinking of Gridlock [about.com]
You did (Score:3, Interesting)
False precision (Score:4, Informative)
Why convert from km to miles? TFA says it's over 100km, decidedly imprecise (it's probably not over 110km, but could easily be 104km). The poster converts for us to English measurements with an increased precision, with the implication that, while it's over 62 miles, it's not over 63.
Precisely false precision (Score:2)
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I prefer 62 miles, 241 yards, 11.872512 inches.
I think you meant 62 miles, 1 furlong, 3 rods, 4 yards, 2 feet, 5 inches, 2 barleycorns, 2 lines, 8 mickeys.
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Re your sig:
Yes, I live in California. We spend 578 MILLION on high schools in districts with dropout rates approaching 50%, so we can drive fast. You do the math.
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I object to your sig.
Travelling at speed on the highway is not about getting to your destination marginally faster. It's about keeping the flow of traffic up to prevent marginally more deaths and injuries.
I know it doesn't directly say it, but your sig implies that it's perfectly reasonable to merge onto the highway at 60 when everyone else is doing 80. No, that's not ok, it's not safe, people won't slow down, they'll go around you and it'll cause an avoidably dangerous situation. AND everyone gets to their
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And I must note that NPR's article has a more correct "60-mile stretch."
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I should have said "TFAH". You are correct. I should not have blamed the poster.
Gridlock (Score:2)
Sounds like the makings for permanent gridlock.
Significant figures (Score:3, Informative)
When the article headline says "over 100km", the conversion -- if one is really required -- should be "over 60 miles".
"The congestion was expected to last into mid-September as the road project will not be finished until then, the newspaper said."
Sounds like they need to build some more railway.
rail only reduces road usage by a tiny percentage (Score:2)
Something like 3%. it is horrendously expensive for that 3%.
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Something like 3%. it is horrendously expensive for that 3%.
3% of what?
The article says the problem is partly caused by freight being brought into Beijing, although the pictures show mostly cars.
The cost depends what your priorities are, and what you can externalise (railways tend to have far fewer accidents, take up much less land, use much less fuel, create much less pollution etc -- suddenly roads don't seem so cheap).
Anyway, China is building railways -- something like 50% of new railways in the next decade are going to be built in China.
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The point still applies to the article.
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where's the "Tibet" in the "Beijing-Tibet expressway"?
Isn't Tibet over 3000 miles from Beijing?
It's 1,565 mi (2520 km) from Beijing to Tibet.
This road is 2,249 mi (3620 km) long.
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Sounds like they need to build some more railway.
Ignorant comment that ignores how extensive China's railway system [wikipedia.org] is and how it already plays a vital role in China's transportation infrastructure?
Perhaps I should have said "yet more railway", I'm aware of how fast China is adding to their network.
But, it's smaller than I thought it was. 3000 passenger trains and 33,300 freight trains sounds big, but Britain runs 20000 trains a day [thetravelinsider.info]. 1.3 billion journeys in China, 1.23 billion in Great Britain. However, the average journey in China is 20 times the distance.
some people stay there for a long time... (Score:5, Informative)
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I wonder how many of these guys in the traffic jam lost their jobs this month... given the fact the Chinese have an even stricter work-culture and an abundance of other people willing to take the job.
For length, not so special (Score:5, Informative)
If you look at traffic jams in Japan at the beginning and end of major holidays (New Year's, Golden Week, O-bon), the expressways around Tokyo usually have jams this long or longer. In the August 5-18 O-Bon holiday, they reported jams of more than 10 km occurring 596 times.
That's what you get when you give most of the people in the country holidays at the same time.
blinkers ... (Score:2)
You've never driven I-95 the length from NYC to Miami, have you?
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NYC to Miami is only 19-20 hours.. not that bad of a drive - moves quick really.. just sucks when you get to Florida
.. feel like its over but you still have 6 hours to go.. i always had it alittle worse.. didn't stop at Miami but rather went to the Keys/..// damn its a long way down there...
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Well when you hit Florida it doesn't matter. They all magically stop working anyway.
Doctor Who (Score:3, Insightful)
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The face of Bo(Captain Jack) organized it to save them from a plague that wiped out the rest of the planet.
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Sorry to be nitpicky, but no, that's not what happened. An extremely deadly virus broke out and killed people very quickly. The city was shut down and only the people in their cars survived. The system was set up so they'd perpetually stay in their cars even though the danger had passed. The monsters were a separate element that thrived in the changing environment.
Translated to English (Score:4, Funny)
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Here in Los Angeles, we call it "The 405"
Science Fiction Novel Idea (Score:4, Interesting)
This jam sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel. Kwan Xiahacker is 19 years old, and makes a living providing computer security to the residents of the Beijing-Tibet expressway trafficjam, where he was born.
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The Rolling Traffic Jam (Score:2)
The rolling traffic jam can be thought of as a queue. Cars are can enter the queue at any rate. However, cars can only leave the queue every 2 seconds. The reason is that if you were stopped behind another car, you wouldn't jam your gas pedal at the exact second the car in front of you does. You would wait until that car moves 20-30 feet before moving your own car. This delay adds up for every car in the queue (let's approximate 2 seconds). So if there were 100 cars in the queue you would need 200 seconds b
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Move the cargo traffic to rail! (Score:3, Interesting)
Move the cargo traffic to rail!
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Thank God for another logical soul. I've been lobbying to get commercial trucks off of I-35 for 10 years now. It doesn't even have to be rail..why not make a new highway system just for commercial cargo? It wouldn't even have to be that great, because truck drivers are already used to being stuck in traffic (since they are generally causing the jams). And, it frees up Interstate travel for smaller, more manageable vehicles. It would probably improve safety as well.
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Well, your lobbying must be working, because they're currently loading the entire trailer up onto train cars for the long-haul. Trucks pick them back up at the railhead and take them the last mile.
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The irony being that the interstate highway system was designed for commercial traffic and for civil defense (moving military supplies easier across the country in the event of an invasion).
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The irony being that the interstate highway system was designed for commercial traffic and for civil defense (moving military supplies easier across the country in the event of an invasion).
I'm also not sure the "commerce clause" would apply to nationally funded highways that didn't allow commercial traffic. Not that anyone follows that silly little constitution any more.
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A big rig causes 9,600 [jsonline.com] times as much road wear as a car, but doesn't pay 9,600 times as much in taxes. So a simple solution is to make them pay the full cost, based on the weight of the vehicle and the number of axles.
Faced with paying the full cost of transporting goods, the shipping companies will use rail more often, and that will reduce traffic congestion and save us money on repairing the roads.
Re:Move the cargo traffic to rail! (Score:4, Insightful)
So if you wanted to assign true cost, you'd have a fixed fee (for all vehicles) assigned to cover the fixed costs, and a proportional fee levied to cover the variable use-dependent costs.
Aside from that, your point stands.
And I'd like to add that if we subsidize rail like we subsidize highways, it's be MUCH cheaper than currently, with much higher usage rates, and so we'd likely be able to afford a much better rail system.
But for some reason we expect rail systems to be self-sufficient, while we sink billions upon billions into roads, highways, and waterways.
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>>
And I'd like to add that if we subsidize rail like we subsidize highways, it's be MUCH cheaper than currently, with much higher usage rates, and so we'd likely be able to afford a much better rail system.
You do know that China has a very extensive rail system, and they still got this mess?
At any one time, there's a million people in transit in Beijing train stations alone.
Just like a Phish festival. (Score:2)
It's a supply and demand problem (Score:2)
...and so there's an easy solution. When wants exceed supply, this is a sign that the price is too low. The market solution is to raise the price until supply and demand equalize.
Sadly, we haven't learned this in America. We prefer to maintain the illusion that freeways are free, even though the market solution would be cheaper in the end.
The Southern Thruway (Score:2)
"The Southern Thruway" is a short story by "Julio Cortazar" that depicts the microeconomy and social interaction of a group of people struck in a days long traffic jam in Paris. He wrote it around 1960-1970.
Sometimes reality turns fiction obsolete....
One big toll booth (Score:2)
Hire a few of the huge oversupply of men to become toll collectors, parachute them to various points along the road with supplies and plenty of ammo, inform the folks on the road that they can avoid a toll only if they get off the road, and then start randomly picking stopped vehicles, stopped for even a second, to toll. Soon enough the road would clear out. And just think of the money they could donate to the preservation of Tibe
Bloody amateurs (Score:2)
Most of the freeways in southern California have had traffic jams that have lasted for 30 years, so far. That I know of. Possibly longer.
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For the 3620km inter-province highway, probably not. Cell phones tend not to work outside cities, and Tibet is a very rural area.
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Cell phones tend not to work outside cities,
Whilst that may be true for your country, and perhaps China, here in SE England I can get a signal almost anywhere, including rural areas. Unfortunately it's sometimes only Basic GSM and unfortunately not full 3G HSDPA (or sometimes not even GPRS!), but I've yet to find somewhere on a major motorway without a mobile signal.
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I live in South East England as well, and yes, I get a cellphone signal almost anywhere in this region. However, while there are lots of green places, it is the 2nd most densely populated part of England after the North West and England is near the top of the population density tables for Europe. If you exclude the city states and micronations, only Holland has a higher population density than England. If you bring in the rest of the UK, then it falls below Belgium in the table.
If you go to for example t
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``Letting people onto a highway that is backed up for 62+ miles is just irresponsible. Then again, this is China. Not that the government is entirely evil, but they don't have a track record of always looking out for their citizens best interests.''
Maybe the government have decided to go libertarian and let people fend for themselves.
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Re:Shut Down Access? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is this modded insightful? It isn't. You are thinking about this from the perspective of what would happen in the US, and China is not the same. Obviously the poster and the mods have never spent much time in China.
There are more people here that you can imagine. The infrastructure cannot keep up with the population growth. In this particular area, the only alternate road is under construction. Look at a map. It would take an extra 9 hours at least if you take an alternate route, and that is provided you can get off the highway, turn around, and go back.
The government does it's best to control the traffic, but the number of people with cars is growing faster than they can keep up. In Beijing, you can only drive your car in the city 4 days a week. (Everyone has 1 day they are not allowed to drive, and it rotates.) Traffic is still horrible, even with 1/5 of the cars parked at home every day.
It is a major throughfare connecting to the capital city. You cannot just "close access" to the entire highway for a 60 mile stretch. You would essentially be cutting off all of those rural communities from the rest of the country for the entire summer until the construction projects are complete.
It just isn't feasible.
cars are simply unable to move once on the ramp causing people to do u-turns, etc, which causes its own hazards...
This confirms my suspicion what you have no idea what traffic is like in China. This (cars unable to move, illegal u-turns causing hazards, etc) happens all the time on a normal day here. The drivers are used to it, and they drive under the assumption that most people don't follow the rules.
I realize that someone who has never left the US might not understand, and the gut reaction might be "OMG, look how uncivilized China is!" but that is just your ignorance showing through. The American media doesn't help, because (on some level) the powers that be want us to think that about China, so that is the national image of the PRC that is repeated over and over in the West.
BTW, I was in Vermont during the Phish concert mentioned here:
The US isn't any better at handling the traffic situation. I don't recall them closing the highway in Vermont when this happened.
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The traffic jam is 9 days old. That doesn't mean the cars are stuck in there for 9 days. It could be that each car travels through the entire traffic jam in a few hours, but as soon as it's through, another car gets in line at the end.
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Re: (Score:2) |
Two interesting pieces on the Giuliani campaign, the first coming from New York Magazine. They take a look at the conventional wisdom and find that all the ink about Giuliani having no chance doesn’t quite seem to hold:
Once the rest of the country sees Giuliani up close, the conventional New York wisdom once held, his campaign will surely fold. So far, exactly the opposite has happened. The more Rudy has put himself out there, the higher his numbers have climbed. Last week, a CBS poll showed Giuliani leading McCain by a whopping 21 points while a Quinnipiac survey found Giuliani running five points ahead of Hillary nationally, and dead even in blue states.
Yes, Rudy is the new horse in the race and thus, for now, the most compelling. Much of his popularity comes from the fact that he’s entered the race just as McCain’s ties to George Bush’s Iraq policy threaten to render his once inevitable nomination stillborn. At the same time, an idea has taken root that the 70-year-old Arizona senator, cancer survivor, and former POW, who would be the oldest person ever elected president, won’t be up to the job.
Giuliani’s pro-war stance and his moderate social-issue positions may yet bury him. So could a lack of money, a green campaign staff, his thin political résumé, his trifecta of marriages, and, not least of all, the fact that the 9/11 card, however powerful it is, could simply prove too flimsy to carry him all the way to the White House. With 21 months to go before Election Day, there’s still more than enough time for McCain to reassert himself—or any number of other scenarios to play out that don’t involve Giuliani’s becoming president. Still, no Republican presidential candidate in modern history has held this big a lead a year out and not scored the GOP nomination.
Believe it or not, America’s Mayor could be America’s next president.
It seems that the more exposure Giuliani gets, the better he seems to look. The question is why: and I think it comes down to something more than just being “the President of 9/11″.
It’s a reader of Andrew Sullivan’s that seems to understand what’s going on here:.
I think that’s exactly it. For all Rudy Giuliani’s many faults, there’s one thing that he is not and that is inauthentic. He could have tried to spin his way out of his own positions on civil rights for gay couples, firearms, or abortion. He hasn’t. He went to Sean Hannity and said what he believes.
And yet, conservatives seem to be embracing him.
It’s that authenticity that is Giuliani’s biggest asset against anyone of any party in the field. Hillary is as made-up as they come — she’s like a politicized, feminized Barbie. Barack Obama is the same thing — he’ll be what you want him to be but one is never quite sure what he really stands for beyond all the bobble-headed platitudes. Edwards — well, putting the blow-dried trial lawyer in front of the former federal prosecutor would be like putting a show dog in front of a pit bull.
Why would evangelicals support someone who seems so hostile to their beliefs? For one, Giuliani isn’t all that hostile. His personal pro-choice convictions are matched by his desire to restrain the judicial activism of the Supreme Court by appointing judges who will follow the principles of the Constitution and not legislate social policy from the bench. He’s not for gay marriage rights, but civil unions. His personal foibles may be troublesome, but the very essence of evangelical thought is that we are all sinners in need of redemption.
Evangelicals can support Giuliani for the reason the rest of the Republican Party appears to be embracing him — because he’s honest and forthright in his affairs. That’s a principle of evangelical Christianity that Giuliani has in spades, and it may be enough to win over those who would otherwise be skeptical about his candidacy.
It’s far too early to say that Giuliani (or anyone, for that matter) is truly a “front-runner.” A campaign that has been building momentum for months can die in a heartbeat and underdogs can become leaders of their party just as quickly. However, it’s important not to discount the value of Giuliani’s innate authenticity in this race — especially against the current field. In politics, perception matters as much as anything, if not more than anything. The American people have seen Giuliani provide leadership in a time of profound crisis, and they’ve seen someone who is unafraid to speak his mind and put his ideas out there without the need to spin and obfuscate.
Giuliani is very much in play, and I’ve the feeling that the more the media tries to marginalize him as having no chance in the early primaries, the more many conservatives will want to support him.
This topic is starting to get even more ink on JayReding.com than the 4,956th prediction that….sooner or later….one of these days….with God as my witness….these liberal bloggers are gonna end the Democratic Party.
Even looking at his most optimistic numbers, Giuliani has two huge problems. First, 60% of self-identified Republicans don’t realize he’s pro-choice. Second, Rudy may be leading the pack of contenders, but his numbers are stuck in the 40′s. That tells me that the yacht-faring Chamber of Commerce wing of the party is onboard….but what about the evangelical foot soldiers? Will they ever warm up to him? I’m skeptical.
Rudy’s fancy footwork on abortion is only gonna make the topic that much more uncomfortable (and omnipresent) for him in both the GOP primary and the general election. The more he has to walk the tightrope in “supporting a woman’s right to choose….but determined as hell to nominate SCOTUSes who will criminalize that right”, the more voters are gonna cringe. At least a third of the Republicans I know are working-class folks (mostly women) who are with the Democrats on nearly every issue….but still vote GOP because of abortion. If Giuliani doesn’t toe the party’s hard line against abortion, I can’t imagine a scenario where he can win. All the wishful thinking in the world by Giuliani disciples cannot help him hold the 2000 and 2004 Bush coalition.
Here’s a video I’m pretty sure Rudy wish he hadn’t made….Presidential? Judge for yourself–
Wow, that’s very interesting, Mark. If anyone’s an expert on wishful thinking, it would be you, no? Don’t you just wish Giuliani and all his supporters would all just hurry up and commit mass suicide?? That seems to be your style.
Eracus, every day that the Republican party flirts with nominating someone as unelectable as Rudy Giuliani is a day that I have a smile on my face. What terrifies me is the fact that the GOP might wake up and consolidate their support around affable conservative Mike Huckabee. Now there’s a Republican candidate who can hold the Bush coalition together.
Yeah, Mike Huckabee… there’s a guy that’ll set the world on fire.
What terrifies the Democrats is that the GOP will nominate a moderate candidate at the same time the increasingly radical Democratic base pushes their party further and further to the left. Anthony Downs had it right 50 years ago — the party that captures the middle wins the elections. The Democrats are trying to destroy their own centrists and the same time that Giuliani’s numbers keep going up.
Giuliani would defeat any Democrat in the field hands down. Hillary doesn’t stand a chance. Edwards would be toast. Even Obama would have trouble.
The biggest reason why Rudy will get the nomination is because he’s the Democrats worst nightmare and they know it.
Jay, what does the current chimp occupying the White House have that Huckabee doesn’t? If conservatives (and moderates) get to know Huckabee, they’ll like him….as opposed to Giuliani who will be liked less by everybody once his mug graces our airwaves daily.
Giuliani is exactly the kind of faux-moderate candidate that provokes the most cringes among voters. Giuliani is in virtual lockstep with the floundering McCain on the biggest issue (the war in Iraq), taking a position that guarantees his defeat in itself. And it never ceases to amaze me how you bourgeoise disciples think you can smear shit on the faces of your evangelical base by nominating a guy who stands apart from them on their most important issues….and still be rewarded for it. Bubba from Mississippi will not vote for Rudy, Jay. Nor will Trixie, the minimum-wage store clerk from rural Iowa whose allegiance to the GOP is based entirely on the party’s association with criminalizing abortion.
That’s your biggest problem. You are so smug in your belief that the Republican Party’s success lies in its commitment to mindless militarism and consolidating wealth into the pockets of the already-affluent that you believe you have ownership over the 2000 and 2004 Bush coalition no matter what kind of heretic you nominate. Kind of reminds me of the “where are they gonna go?” taunt that came from team Clinton after he signed NAFTA. Twelve years later, the Dems are just now getting some of them back…..a fate that will follow the GOP if they nominate Giuliani.
Wow!! What another brilliant analysis, Mark!! You sure are a political genius!! “Mindless militarism.” “…consolidating wealth into the pockets of the already-affluent…” You sound just like a true Marxist-Leninist whining about yellow running dogs and ravenous capitalist pigs!! Good show!! Bravo!!
So, Hillary’s going to win, right?
Eracus, Hillary will lose against any Republican candidate except Giuliani, whose candidacy would alienate values voters and open the door to a third-party challenge from the right likely to pull in double-digits in the Deep South.
So, it’s Kucinich then!!
Mark, you’re not a Republican, a conservative or any type of right-leaning person. How, then, do you presume to speak for them?
The rabid anti-abortionists that have run for President in the past have all quickly fallen by the wayside. Single-issue candidates and their voters constitute a rarefied grouping, particularly on the right.
And your blather about support for the war being a negative is fueled by a gross misconception of the feeling of the people who didn’t support the GOP in 2006. They are
not sick of the war–they’re sick of the half-assed way it’s being fought. Because of that many stayed home–and Democrats oozed into Congress.
Not because anyone supported their ideas, but because Republicans were pissed at what the Republicans in Congress were doing.
Rudy’s got a lot going for him–9/11 being only a part. His amazing cleaning up of the city(a phenomena that the left has already started claiming began with Dinkins–an utter lie)is a feat that changed so much for residents and visitors alike. It was as if he turned New York into what it could be–and THAT is the New York that everyone cried over on 9/11.
Rudy can win. But, more important, he’s the real thing. He told the Arabs to take their money and shove it. Can you see another politician doing that? A Democrat–particularly considering that a Democrat went sniveling after the cash Guiliani refused.
As you spout off, and you will, about Rudy’s chances, and how Republican voters feel about him, always remember that you’re speaking from the orifice you sit on.
Gee whiz, Jack, you just don’t get it. Mark knows everything — international economics, national security policy, the U.S. tax code — everything!! He’s a state employee, a socialist master-planner, and a follower of the Marx/Hegel dialectic. So if he says Rudy Giuliani can’t be elected, well then, Jack, Rudy Giuliani just can’t be elected. That’s all there is to it. Because Rudy likes gays and women rights and Donald Trump, his candidacy would only alienate values voters and open the door to a third-party challenge from the right likely to pull in double-digits in the Deep South. Got that? And then Hillary would be elected president!! We can’t have THAT now, can we? So….no Giuliani. See??
Jack, living in the Midwest and working for three years as a reporter in a small town, I’ve had no shortage of contact with conservatives, Republicans, and other “right-leaning” sorts. On more than one occasion, an interviewee would ask me, out of the blue, if I had been reading “the Left Behind series”. When my response was “no”, it confirmed in their minds that I was destined to spend the rest of eternity roasting in hell unless I was somehow “saved” before the Rapture. This is the kind of voter Rudy Giuliani needs to win over in the next 20 months….and just as these voters were not compelled in sufficient numbers to support Republican Congressional candidates in 2006, they won’t be compelled to vote for a heretic like Giuliani should he somehow manage to consolidate the support of the Chamber of Commerce Republicans and get the nomination amongst a divided field.
And I’m not talking about nominating a “rabid anti-abortionist”….just someone who has a solid and unequivocal pro-life resume. George W. Bush did…and won. Mike Huckabee does….and would win. Sam Brownback does….and even he may able to beat Hillary. John McCain and Mitt Romney are hedging their bets on the issue, but would still have an advantage over Hillary than Giuliani would not.
By all means though, I hope the GOP field runs with your theory that Republican turnout was soft last November because the party is insufficiently militaristic and trigger-happy. I’m really looking forward to hearing a variation on that line out of Rudy’s mouth at the Republican convention.
Rudy’s resume has its assets and liabilities. A huge liability is the litany of sleazy business dealings and shady associates (Bernard Kerik, anyone?) from his past. Even his tenure as Mayor in NYC offers the kind of paternalistic “government-knows-best” formula for success that will further alienate libertarian-leaning voters, who voted for Bush by a better than 80% margin in 2000 yet fell to around 55% support of Republican Congressional candidates in 2006.
“As you spout off, and you will, about Rudy’s chances, and how Republican voters feel about him, always remember that you’re speaking from the orifice you sit on.”
Whatever worthy points you made in your post are completely negated when you close with debate etiquette right out of the schoolyard sandbox.
Oh. My. God. A New York politician who had sleazy business dealings and shady associates?? In New York?? Who knew??
Mark, how much longer is it going to take for you to realize how much everything you post here only more reveals what a fraud you are? Are you so narcissistic and conceited that you have absolutely no self-awareness at all? Do you not realize what a self-parody you have become?
Just out of curiosity, would you please tell us how old you are and where you were educated? Perhaps your parental background? We just need some real-world perspective so please be as honest as can be. I’m not looking to knock it, I’m just trying to understand how anybody can be so removed from reality at this late stage in the game.
Please tell us you’re not older than 24, you attended community college, and married the girl.
(blinks a few times)
This exchange is becoming just a *little* surreal.
Why, whatever do you mean? Mark is someone who’s had 3 years of experience working as a reporter in a small midwestern town, by which he has obtained all the keen insights and vast knowledge as our authority on everything from climate change to Rudy Giuliani’s resume to deciding who should commit mass suicide. We just want to know if he’s had any other such profound experiences or formal training to help explain how he got so smart.
In light of your absurd comments regarding the importance people in the Midwest place on reading the ‘Left Behind’ series, I think my parting comment was not only witty, but spot on.
Your certitude is misplaced, to say the least.
Coming from outside, from well within the leftist orthodoxy, you spout the propaganda of your masters. It rolls glibly off your tongue because you accept its strictures wholeheartedly. And, in this free country, is fine.
But you would do well to peek outside your box every now and again, if only to reassure yourself that your leftist womb is secure.
I took part, prior to the ’06 election, in endless discussions with many conservative voters who were determined to make the party pay for having failed them. Some stayed home. Some voted for third party candidates they liked better(where available). Some commited the most heinous act–they voted for Democrats. ALL of them were generally united in their reasoning. The GOP had failed on national security, on immigration, and on fighting the war with the fecrocity needed.
Not a one mentioned abortion, or religious conservatism, or any of the bogeymen the left trots out.
Sadly, my point lost, time and time again. I told them that now was not the time for this kind of slap-in-the-face. It was far too dangerous, and worst of all, the left would take it as vindication, as approval, of every insanity that had festered in the fever-swamps these past 6 years.
And they did.
I am telling you, Mark, how the right ACTUALLY thinks. What ACTUALLY concerns and motivates. On two of the counts I listed above, Rudy scores well.
But you go ahead and continue thinking that he’s unelectable because he’s not up on the latest Kirk Cameron vehicle.
And here’s another parting shot–is the left so focused on derailing Guiliani because they’re afraid the Republicans will nominate someone unelectable—or are they afraid that Rudy has enough Democrat fans to make him electable even from the left?
“The GOP had failed on national security, on immigration, and on fighting the war with the ferocity needed.”
Amen, Jack, amen. Not to mention McCain-Feingold.
The difference between the GOP and the Democrat Party is the GOP will take out its own trash. The Democrats leave theirs in charge. That’s how we get the pro-union, anti-democratic legislation that just passed the House by a vote of 228-183, denying the workers’ right to the secret ballot in union certification elections. Only 2 Democrats were opposed. Stalin would be so proud.
By contrast, in 2001 many of the very same Democrats insisted that Mexican workers should not be denied the sacred right to vote by secret ballot, even though they were in the country illegally. And this is called, “looking out for the little guy.” Go figure.
Jack, I venture to say your representative sample of conservative peers who vowed to “teach Republicans a lesson” in 2006 among the 11% of the electorate who swallow the entire conservative agenda of laissez-faire economics, knee-jerk militarism, and authoritarian/theocratic mandates on “values”. Most Republican voters only adhere to one or two of these principles. I don’t what part of the country you live in, but if you discussed politics outside of your inner circle of conservative die-hards, you’d quickly discover how large the abortion issue looms with otherwise non-political housewives, particularly in Middle America. I know at least a dozen women (young and old) who are to the left of me on most issues, but vote Republican because of abortion. Nominate Giuliani and you’ve taken away their only reason to vote GOP. If you seriously think this demographic of voters is tiny enough to piss on, try them. I dare you!
You may be telling me how the right REALLY thinks….but “the right”, at least as you define them, won’t decide who gets to be President in 2008. The 89% of voters whose worldview deviates from the Republican Party platform will. Tell the pro-life ideologues that they can go straight to hell and they’ll take you (and Giuliani) down there with them.
Whatever Democratic fans Rudy has right now are a product of his post-9/11 celebrity. Remove that from his resume and he’s a widely-reviled figure with an abrasive New York personality. With him as the nominee, Democrats and independents will likely vote against Giuliani in even larger numbers than they did against Bush (and that’s not counting the attrition of Republican “values voters” who can’t bring themselves to vote for a gay-loving, baby killer trying to take away their shotguns).
Eracus, it’s a sweet day when bourgeoise sharks like you aren’t able to strongarm your employees from unionizing anymore. The “secret ballot” is (or rather was) a way for employers to control the union vote process through every imaginable means of intimidation. Kudos to the Democrats and the large number of House Republicans who sided with workers here. And once again, dissenting Dan Boren and Gene Taylor show how useless they are….particularly Taylor, whose Gulf Coast district is being deluged with low-wage Mexican workers since the Bush administration waived prevailing wage rates for Gulf Coast rebuilding that would have payed construction workers wages high enough to survive on.
Mark, 99.9% of the electorate agrees you are are just a fraud and a conceit and are simply making stuff up again. Only a true Marxist-Leninist would defend denying a worker’s right to privacy as a condition of employment. So either you are a true communist, Mark, or a just another empty-headed barking moonbat. Which is it? Maybe you can explain how destroying one of the most fundamental pillars of the democratic process helps the worker? And why your Democrat Party is passing legislation denying the secret ballot to others that they so enjoy themselves? Are some pigs more equal than others, Mark? Please explain. |
Tuesday, August 21, 2012 at 11:15 AM
Do or Don't: Magazines in the bathroom
In their guest bathroom, they had a pretty wicker basket with books and magazines. And smack in the middle was the book 401(k)s for Dummies. It made me laugh. How long are people spending in there?!
I know it's a random question, but I'm curious: Do you have magazines in your bathroom? I know a lot of people do. Something about bathroom reading weirds me out, but Alex says I'm crazy, and maybe he's right! Thoughts? Do or don't?
Do you pee in front of your significant other? And our bathroom makeover.
(Top photo by Patrick Cline for Lonny)
Haha, I'm all for the reading material in the bathroom.. but come to think of it, there's nothing in my home bathroom... but there ARE fashion & retails mags in the bathroom at my shop!
There is NO reading material in our bathroom. Too dirty. If a book or magazine make it in there, they stay in the bathroom until they are thrown out.
We were once hosting my husband's friend for a week, and our guest took one of my husband's graphic novels into the toilet with him one morning. My husband told him he could just take it home with him when he left if he liked. the friend thought it was the nicest gesture, little did he know...
No! haha, I never understood this approach to the bathroom. I am IN AND OUT. no reading necessary. Although, that said, my BF disagrees strongly, so in that case we MUST HAVE AT LEAST one book availible for him, haha.
Yeah of course we do. I like to read in the bathtub most nights. Its a favorite way of unwinding.
i have ikea (and other brands) catalogs and some brochures we get in the mail (i change them regularly). i don't really use them (ok sometimes ikea :P) but the man in the house sometimes does. although now he's more into his smartphone and all those games he can play ;) he spends large amounts of time in there so he must have something (else) to do :þ
haha so funny, i'm loving these answers:)
(glad i'm not the only one who wondered about this!)
There is absolutely no reason for magazines to be in the bathroom. I mean, seriously... why? and gross. So unnecessary.
If you want to read while in the bath... just bring the book in with you. No need to stack them in the bathroom.
if someone wants to bring reading material in the bathroom, then thats their business...but leaving them in their to collect germs is gross. Plus, why would anyone want to touch a magazine someone else was flipping through while going to the bathroom, yuck!! On a side note, LOTS of people bring their cell phones in the bathroom with them. That is really gross! you put that to your face! I try to remember that before I reach for someones phone.
Yes! Most of the time it's for decorative purpose, but sometimes it comes in handy when we're staying there longer than expected.. ;)
We have a little wicker basket with magazines in our bathroom but not the guest bathroom. Somehow, having magazines on display like that seems to me like we're all admitting that we're not just "powdering our noses" haha, which to me seems a little too open. At my parents' house growing up, though, there was an entire bookcase in the guest bathroom, stock-piled with books like "Small Businesses for Dummies" and I would always find myself spending way more time than necessary perusing the bookcase (which was accessible without even having to get up! Eeek!
My concern is hygiene.... I don't have a problem with myself or others reading in the bathroom but leaving reading material in the room weirds me out. Love the bathroom with the map, though!
Yep. Got magazines. Though now I'm sorta thinking I should toss them...
When I was younger my parents friends house was the coolest place to visit, in their bathroom they had a GAMEBOY! Also crossword books & joke books, so people would often come back to the BBQ or pool party with a funny joke to share...
ha.
Lindsay @ Darling Clementine
My fiance and I do not agree on this one and we are moving in together in a couple months. Seeing any reading material in the bathroom makes me uncomfortable--which I know is silly since everyone knows what is going on in there. On the other hand, my fiance has TONS of magazines in his bathroom and when he stays at my place, he leaves reading material in mine. That said, we use the bathroom very differently--I'm an in and out kind of person and he is not. Am I being unsympathetic?
Yes! When I was in England it seemed like most of the people whose houses we visited had not just a basket, but a SHELF dedicated to light, humurous reading. Personally I loved the idea. I think it's funny and welcoming, haha! I know have a small book of art on the wicker table by the toilet. LOL :)
Once someone in my family is done reading something, it usually makes its way to the basket in the bathroom in case you want a little distraction. However, I'm never in the bathroom long enough to get through any articles. So it's not so much my thing.
I guess if you think about it, it is a bit weird, but I love to read in the bathroom and so does my bf. I always end up reading shampoo bottles and things like that if I don't have something to read, so we tend to keep our magazines in there LOL.
This is funny! I'm with you - I've always thought it's kind of weird/gross. ;) I'm sure if I did have reading material in the bathroom, though, my husband would enjoy it. Ha!
We seem to have a pile of J. Crew catalogs...I have to wonder how Jenna Lyons would feel about it ;)
I can't do it! It grosses me out and makes me think of people lounging on the toilet while they read. Sorry guests! Read elsewhere!
Of course! Where else would I get my reading done? It's the only place in the entire house where absolutely NO ONE can bother and interrupt me!
read in the bathroom - yes keep material in there - NO. tacky. ick.
I guess when you take a step back it seems kind of weird. However, it definitely makes the time go by quicker. The only down fall is that sometime you end up staying there longer than you need to because you're hooked on what you're reading, lol... And -ick.
It totally weirds me out too! Mac and I have the biggest debate about this so now he has gotten a midcentury box to keep all of this reading material in but out of sight as well, haha.
No books or magazines in mine. I don't feel like I'm ever in there long enough to warrant having them in there. Plus it just seems kind of dirty to me.
But, I do love that map bathroom picture! So good!
My husband's bathrooom is more like a library... I on the otherhand don't understand the whole 'relaxing on the toilet with a good book' thing, and am in and out. I think this is a venus vs. mars thing...
I tend to be a bit impatient in there, so having something to do while I use the facilities, take a bath, etc. is nice. I take books in sometime too!
It kind of weirds me out too! I always thought it was a guy thing, but maybe not.
Oh! I have issues about reading material in the bathroom but I covered it in a cute way. I framed 2 posters from banquet that match my bathroom (it's in shades of navy, grey and gold) that both have fun little nuggets of reading material. One is mounted so someone sitting down - with good eyesight- could read and the other is mounted where someone who might, ahem, stand to do their business could check it out!
Here's one of the prints I bought:
The other seems to be sold out or discontinued, but they have lots of good choices!
p.s. remember this?
I keep some reading material in the bathroom...but only for when I'm taking a bath!
Nope. Magazines in the bathroom totally gross me out. Not because of germs or anything but just because it's like...I don't know. It's a fairly intimate and revealing image to give people of yourself? Magazines stored in the bathroom would be like a vibrator stored right smack on top of the dresser, or prescriptions stored on a spice rack near the fridge, or upper lip hair remover stored on the sink counter. Everybody knows that people do these things, but nobody really needs to KNOW about it.
I don't really ever spend much time at all in the bathroom, unless I'm, like, really sick, so maybe I just have really extreme, gross associations with bathroom reading material.
This TOTALLY weirds me out. Glad to know I am not alone.
Yuck. No. Never. No reading material in the bathroom ever never ever. And thank you for bringing this up! It's always been a pet peeve of mine!
And regarding your PS - yes I pee in front of my mate and my kids! It's kind of hard to avoid. Seems like - whichever room I go in, they follow!
i read in the bath but that's it, I'm not a huge fan of sticking around for hours in the bathroom unless I'm bathing xx
No way. I'm like the bookstore in the Seinfeld episode - any reading material that makes it into the bathroom is "flagged."
Oh Joanna... you have got to be the most polite girl on all of blogland. I do not know of any man who doesn't read in the bathroom. Magazines in my house have been replaced by the iPad...
my husband & i don't keep any in our restrooms - we're usually in & out! but we always laugh because when we go to my parent's house, there's national geographics and newspapers. we're talkin' stacks of these things. i mean, really?! that's some heavy reading.
-ale @
My father-in-law keeps sodoku books in his bathroom. Ha!
Ha, I come from a big family of bathroom readers - I'm always wandering around the house with a book. Although because our bathroom is small we don't leave anything in it, I certainly have no problem with people who do.
I don't really get the hygiene complaint - we clean our bathroom twice a week, and it's not like I'm, uh, *doing* anything on my hands or the shelf...
Does anyone really need to spend that long in there that they need something to entertain them? Surely if it's taking that long, there's something wrong with your diet :D
We have separate bathrooms and mine has the occasional catalogue but his is chock full of discarded newspaper sections and half read books and all kinds of esoteric reading material. My bottom falls alseep if I sit too long but he spends days in there. Must be a male thing.
My in-laws have a huge backet of catalogues right next to the toilet in the main bathroom. It totally grosses me out. I think it's tacky too. Glad I am not the only one who doesn't like this.
We actually have a stack of children's book in our bathrooms. The reason being - our toddler loves books and the only way we could get her on the toilet to potty train her was to bribe her with books! Plus, our guests get a kick out of reading some of them when they visit the bathroom.
Why???? Why would you read in there. Get in, get out!
I LOVE that you asked this question! Confession: I sometimes do a little reading in the bathroom. However, I am totally opposed to having magazines or books on display in the bathroom. It's like we all know that goes on, but we don't need to draw attention to it or promote it. ICK! Plus, I don't like to think about the germs on those periodicals!
i think magazines are ok, but i seriously never spend more time in there than i have to :)
Miyan
fly far
I have always hated it. I know many lovely people who do this but even as a young teenager I remember thinking, "It's tacky. Yuck."
If I'm taking a bath, yes, I take a magazine or two in...a book. But not like what you're describing. I loathe it. I'm so glad you brought this up!
LOL when I was growing up we always had Calvin and Hobbes books in the bathroom, and we (my brother and sister and I) would always leave one open right in front of the toilet in our bathroom. Never really discussed it, we just always did it and the next person would just pick up reading where the other one left off. My mom made a comment about how weird this was once, and we were all like "well yeah, makes it easy for the next person!" she CRACKED up laughing at our mutual and unspoken understanding over this matter LOL!! I actually don't have reading material in house now, but I should. Thanks for reminding me! :)
I'm not a fan and have no space anyway. However someone did a health study on this last year for those who are worried about that:
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I don't get it. For me in and out as quickly as possible. I'd rather read in a comfortable chair or my bed.
i so agree with lisa marie. such a gender divide here. if it werent for the bathroom, i never would have finished east of eden. on the other hand, i agree it's not the *classiest* thing to think about. maybe keep an ipad in there with a short cartoon - and when it's over a message pops up that says, 'ok, finish up you weirdo!'
Joanna! I totally agree- bathrooms are where you should do your "business" and then get out! The idea of having reading material in the bathroom has this old bourgeois kind of feeling to me- like it might be classy or something, but yikes- I think it's just kind of icky to spend so much time sitting on a toilet!!
Joanna... Alex is right! You are crazy.
I can't believe the comments about germs.
haha I never understood why people read on the toilet, I don't sit there for long so what's the point right? But since i moved in with my lover and he has some little funny books there, i started flicking through some and it's pretty cool :-) i just didn't grew up with magazine in the bathroom.... and now there a little book to learn italian that i read there.
our bathroom isn't big enough for a stack of magazines... however, in the age of electronic devices, i have been known to take my kindle, ipad and/or android in with me.
when i was a kid and first discovered the reading in the bathroom thing, i used to HIDE OUT IN THERE with my book to get out of doing homework or chores.
That's funny! My boyfriend leaves his "German for Dummies" in the bathroom!! Also, I remember my parents would put the Readers' Digest short stories collections in their bathrooms, which I always thought was a good idea.
It's a free country so bring what you like to the john with you, but then by all means bring it on out with you too. I think leaving magazines for others in the loo is just yucky. You can guess what people have being doing while holding that magazine before! Thanks for thinking of me and my reading needs, but I'll peruse your coffee table next time I'm curious what you've been reading lately ;)
i am kind of with you--something about it weirds me out.
i don't know i just can't stop thinking of all the germs on the magasines and stuff.
Neither me or my family has ever kept magazines in the bathroom. I just don't see the point/functionality. It doesn't work for me. Of course, it's something I could live with in future...XOXO
My friend has a copy of "Everyone Poops" in her bathroom for humorous decor, but that's about as far as I'll go.
Keep the door locked, turn on the fan, wash your hands, get in and get out. I want it to seem like you just stepped into and came back from Narnia. Less I know, the better!
Love your blog! :D
momentofjenn.blogspot.com
OF COURSE!!!! It's perfect for bath time!
yes! with three little ones chasing after me, the bathroom is a great place to hide for a few minutes and flip through a magazine :) no shame here!
My American friend does so I thought it was a US thing, we dont in the Uk :P
I keep crossword puzzles in the bathroom! (And a couple catalogs or magazines.)
I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm commenting from the can!
I put all copies of new magazines from the mail directly on the back of the commode. That's just where they live in this house.
I am a recent convert to magazines in the bathroom. I used to find the entire concept utterly repulsive, but gradually have come around to the idea. Am still a bit gross out at other peoples homes, but am ok to have a few copies of Elle Decor or Living Etc. in my own 'loo'. I don't hang around in there - no point having books!
Jamie's comment at 11.41 made me laugh!
When I first started dating my boyfriend he lived with a group of 5 guys and they had books in the bathroom. It really grossed me out because I always noticed how long his housemates spent in the bathroom and the stench that followed (too much information?)
Anyway, we don't have any reading material in our bathroom but I do like to take one in with me when having a bath but I'm guessing that's quite common isn't it?
I don't get why people think books in the bathroom are so gross. It's not like theyre any closer to your business than your face is while you're in there. You touch them BEFORE you wipe, right? Plus you keep lots of other stuff in there, like towels and your toothbrush. Why isn't it gross for those things to be around?
we have a stash that my husband reads while he's hiding from the children. our kids (ages 6 & 8) now pick up a magazine while they are using the toilette. it cracks me up every time i see one of them in there reading wine spectator, little legs dangling in the air.
Oh my goodness, that's hilarious! I definitely keep magazines in the bathroom...but AFTER I'm done reading them ;) I keep feeling like guests would get bored in there...and I don't want them to notice my dirty mirror ;)
What is up with all those commenters saying it would be "gross" and there would be "germs" on the magazines and books in the bathroom? Can we clean up with the belief that bathrooms are unclean rooms? You can have reading material in your bathroom and please, don't make people believe that this was something forbidden and gross. You go to the bathroom with mostly clean hands (as you go everywhere with hopefully clean hands) and you read while sitting. When would this be gross? Did you ever go to a library? Do you read at the doctor's? Do you have reading material on your work desk? Then you shouldn't, if you tell people they are gross when they read in the bathroom. Sorry for being a bit upset, but this really is something I cannot believe - all those cleaning fanatics when it comes to toilet-things. It is just normal and you do not get sick by reading a book that someone else has touched.
Nope! Totally creeps me out. I dated someone a few years back and when we visited his parents house I noticed a whole basket of novels, crossword books and loads of magazines in the bathroom. So gross. ;-)
Unless you are ill, how long does it take to poop? I mean, REALLY? The only time I have ever taken reading material to a bathroom is when I've had running induced IBS, or have had a stomach bug.
I also agree that it's unclean. Which, I would say is fine in your own household, but I wouldn't dare touch a magazine in someone elses.... eeewwww.
My husband keeps his science magazines there. I find that hilarious. I don't think I spend enough time there to think about going through a magazine...
I have no problem with reading material in the bathroom. A long book, haha, that is funny, but that kind of reading can be done in a bath tub or ... when my toddler takes a bath I sit in their and read. I don't consider bathrooms dirty or germy. I keep my tooth brush in their, are the same germs landing on books landing on my toothbrush too...????
What is funny to me is how many people think sitting on a toilet seat in a public bathroom is OK (have read this topic on a similar kind of forum) but reading in a bathroom is "Gross".
Very contradicting in my opinion!
I don't actually have anything in the bathroom in my apartment, but there were always magazines and books in the bathrooms in my parents house. I don't think it's gross as long as you put the lid down before you flush so germs don't go everywhere.
The bathroom in this picture is so charming, is this one of yours or something you found?
Kristina
Kristina does the Internets
My friend in college kept him jounalism textbook in the bathroom and would read everytime he had a....ummm...."long one". By the end of the week he'd finish the chapter he had for homework. Haha
I prefer to read in a comfortable place so the bathroom is not the place for me. I would choose my couch or my bed for my reading at home.
I am also weirded out by reading material in the bathroom. Ho wlong do people sit in there?? It also gives me a terrible bathroom visual of the resident...
My husband complemented my dad on his toilet paper holder with a built in magazine rack so of course he was gifted one just like it.
I don't worry about hygiene and the people who are should be more worried about their toothbrushes! I've been to lots of people's houses where the toothbrushes are on the sink right beside the toilet. I'll have to say that grosses me out!
Good friends of mine wallpapered their guest bathroom with pages from romance novels the former owner had left in their apartment. I often wish I needed more time in the bathroom than I did (and that you could read the other side of the pages:).
Are you serious? Unless you ladies are in a constant state of diarrhea every time you've gotta go #2.. I don't see how it's a quick "in and out" process (just being honest here). The bathroom is a quiet place to get some reading done while working on some.. other things as well. ;)
Um, sometimes you CAN'T just "get in, get out." Sometimes things just... take awhile.
::cough cough::
That said, we don't always have reading material in our bathroom, but I will take my iPhone in with me if I think I'll be awhile. That's usually how I quickly check blogs while I'm working! ;) Hey, what else am I going to do? Just sit there?
hahahaha this is cracking me up....
we always had magazines in the bathroom when i was growing up from highlights to jc penney. maybe there was a "fix it yourself" book or something in there from time to time, but never novels just hanging out.....if those make it into the bathroom it's reading material while taking a bath. now that i live in my own place, i find that she brings over magazines she's looked through and leaves them in my bathroom of all places LOL....
I was casually sleeping with a guy who took showers only so it was a little off putting to see this STACK of novels, TIME magazine, etc. in his bathroom... but at the same time it was nice to see intellectual material and not maxim.....hahahaha I'm glad you reminded me of how baffled I was by that every time i was in his restroom.....
and by she i meant my mother hahaha
omg no. reading material in the bathroom weirds me out. just like seeing a cute boy in the grocery store while holding an extra large package of toilet paper rolls. no. just no.
I don't do it. I just want to get in then out lol
- Sarah
agirlintransit.blogspot.com
This comment has been removed by the author.
I have to be honest, I'm surprised at how many people find it unhygienic to leave magazines or books in the bathroom. Here's a little (admittedly gross) tidbit: when a toilet is flushed, those droplets of water can spray up to 6 feet in the air! So the fact is, unless you're deep cleaning you're bathroom daily (and who has time for that?!), there are going to be some icky particles flying about.
And just think of all the studies they've done on the disgusting microbes that are found on dollar bills and such! I'm all for cleanliness, but at some point we just have to come to terms with the fact that everyone poops.
:D
I don't understand why people obsess about germs, as if any other room in the house is germ free? Germs are everywhere on everything we touch. No getting away from it and if you think the books on your shelves are any cleaner than the books and magazines in your bathroom then you're wrong. Assuming you wash your hands on a regular non obsessive basis you'll be fine! Needless to say I have a stack of magazines and books in the bathroom, kitchen, living room and garden shed!
Huh. I didn't realize people looked down so much on reading materials in the bathroom. We do keep magazines in our bathroom because our family has some people who simply aren't physically able to do their business very quickly. (On the other hand, I'm built as an in-and-out girl.) I do expect common hygenic courtesy, meaning that you don't handle the magazines *after* you've wiped or otherwise touched your body. With that, I really don't see why anyone should be judged for keeping reading materials in the bathroom.
a fried of mine used to work in a nursing home. She spent a lot of time accompanying the elderly people to the bathroom and (I'm sorry but it's true) pushing back their intestines. The anus muscles tend to wear out, especially when you waste too much time reading, sitting on the toilet. You're pushing (subconciously) all the time you're sitting there. Pelvic floor exercises are very helpful...
Do I have to mention that I never read with dropped pants ever after? (((o;
ina
I've seen it alot but I wouldn't do it personally. It depends on where the reading material is compared to the toilet but it could be unhygienic. Plus most people now and days just bring their smart phones haha.
I love to have something to read in the bathroom but I don't keep magazines or books in there, I keep magazines in a table next to the bathroom door and when I want to go I take a magazine with me.. its crazy but not a bad idea
When I was a kid, my dad always kept copies of the WatchTower in the bathroom. My grandma would send them and despite his differing beliefs, he said he couldn't throw them away.
No reading material in my potty room. Though, my fiance has been known to bring his phone in with him when he takes care of business :)
Welllll....
Sometimes.
It's nice to have something in there to keep you occupied.
Flu, much?
Also...
My Parents have always had electronic games in their bathroom. :) I think Yahtzee is the preference :)
Ha!
Such a funny post. :)
I'm surprised how many people are clearly one way or another!
Eat Cake
@Idle Wife - Yes! Totally agree!
@Jessica Kulick and @Dom - I totally agree with you! I would add that almost all of the un-hygienic commentors keep their toothbrushes in the bathroom, eh?
I am loving all these responses. So funny. Seeing a stack of magazines someplace kind of weirds me out in the lets-all-acknowledge-whats-really-going-on-here kind of way, but more often than not I appreciate it.
It's kinda gross. But sometimes I end up spend more time in the bathroom than I wanted to so reading material does come in handy.
But I also always close the lid, and not doing so is REALLY gross.
Yes, magazines, books and crossword puzzles. I recently began bringing in my Kindle Fire and surf the web. It began as a child with 3 sisters and one bathroom. Privacy was rare in our small three bedroom ranch. Then as a mother...and now the habit is ingrained in my senior years. Too bad for hubby that we recently traded in our 3 bathroom tri level for a 1 bathroom bungalow in Florida.
I think now that smartphones exist magazines in the bathroom are kind of unnecessary...I see why people like to have them in there, but it is a little funky to think about especially when it comes to guests.
We have an Uncle John's bathroom reader for my husband in our only bathroom, but I find it a little weird (and tacky) and try to keep it hidden in the cupboard beside the toilet. If we had an ensuite to put it in I wouldn't care.
dying over these comments, especially marf at 12:10: "we have a stash that my husband reads while he's hiding from the children. " hahaha!
my parents have a book of random facts in their bathroom, which is how i know that the glue on the back of postage stamps is the favorite food of cockroaches. and, believe it or not, that information has actually come up in conversation once or twice :)
honestly, i didnt realize people didn't read in the bathroom...hahaha. i highly recommend it if you havent, especially if you have kids, its one of the only places to escape!
Definitely a DO in my book :) I love reading material in the bathroom. Haha!
This is too funny! I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Seinfeld episode about this exact thing:
Oh, and no for me : )
I house my collection of home design mags in our hallway bathroom. I just don't know where else to put them... so now the collection has grown into an obsurd number of magazines in one tiny bathroom, it's sort of a joke.
During our entire life think how much time we spend in the bathroom?
I personally don't want to waste any moment... so... I DO... I have a pile of magazines in the bathroom.
It is fascinating for me to read about this kind of subject. I am French, and every time this type of " intimate " subjects comes out, I can totally see the cultural differences and how " prudish " American can be. It's so interesting to see how much people are in denial of being simply human ! Guess what Ladies, we are ALL THE SAME, we all go to the bathroom, you might as well be productive or relax, there is NOTHING wrong with it !
What a great post!...Number one, in our house, there is no point to putting reading material in the bathroom. We go in there "for a reason!" LOL And if my friends have to use our bathroom I don't want to put reading material in there, encouraging them to ignore US!! ^_^ ...As to your 'P.S.' question: OF COURSE we do! We've been married for 30 years, and together for at least 4 years before that. Whatever secrets we used to have, are long since forgotten! Besides, I don't understand being married to someone, that you're intimate with!, but that you have issues of dressing, or undressing, in front of! Really?!....Why?!! O_O
it's not for me. i can't sit on the loo for that long, but when i lived with a boyfriend we totally had magazines and newspapers in the bathroom
I seriously don't know what men are doing in there. I am in and out like 3 min tops! My fiance takes about 30 min...haha maybe it's a man's time to get away
I find reading material disgusting in the bathroom - just take a second to look up the spread of germs from a toilet flushing and you'll know why
When I was a little girl I read books in the bathroom. Now I take my smartphone and play solitaire. Usually I have one hand on the phone and one hand petting the cat that bothers me when I am in there!
As someone who suffers from ulcerative colitis, I spend a ton of time in the bathroom. It sucks, and I am happy to have magazines, catalogs, or a book. I draw the line at computers/phones/ipads, though.
My dream bathroom would have a big open window facing the ocean and a large stack of magazines.
Apparently people who read in the bathroom are more depressed than those who don't. Interesting, right? No reading materials for me, but my boyfriend will take in books, magazines-- even his iPad!
No! It totally grosses me out. And I feel weird when I am in a bathroom that has a stack of reading material. Ew!
KK
We don't have reading material, but we do have the hand-held Hangman game that is left in the bathroom.
don't! i'm totally with you joanna, reading material in the bathroom weirds me out. there are entertainment magazines in the women's bathroom at my office and i always wonder who is in there catching up on their gossip.
We have a stack of Empire magazines - so great. Do the business, decide on a movie to watch in one go.
I think its fine. Not germy/unclean either - there are so many worse germy places than that, that you happily put your hands on all the time (handrails, door handles, elevator buttons) so why stress. Making sure you wash your hands before you eat, prepare food, touch your face etc. is what matters.
For all the comments regarding "I don't know how people take that long...get in and get out". Its not a matter of it taking longer, and you having more time to read, its a matter of it being a relaxing, quiet, chilled out place in the house. Maybe its just a matter of being more comfortable with your bodily functions rather than being so freaked out by it and thinking its 'dirty' and that its something you have to get over and done with in such a hurry to be away from. I wonder if there is a correlation between people who are worried about this, and those who have worried about being naked in front of their family members (including children) for functional purposes (showering, getting changed etc.).
Loved this part in the linked article someone put earlier ():
"To be blunt, bugs in your poo can get on your hands, be transferred to your reading material, and on to the hands of some other unfortunate. That risk is quite slim though. As Curtis says, "we don't need to get anal about it".
"The important thing is to wash your hands with soap after using the loo to get the bugs off," Curtis says. This way, even if you flicked through a shit-smeared copy of the Metro left on the toilet floor at Reading station, washing your hands before leaving should keep you quite safe. Of course, if you ran your hands over the most soiled pages, picked your nose and rubbed your fingers in your eyes, you might well get an infection. For the determined, there is always a way."
I do not read in the bathroom but I do talk on the phone - not sure which is more weird. Though I usually do it to hide from the kids.
I'm with you! I find it kind of gross. Growing up, my dad always kept tons of magazines in the bathroom, and he'd sometimes be in there for such a long time. I really didn't understand it. And my cousin refers to the bathroom as "his office". Yuck! When my husband and I were first living together, I found out that not all men do this. Thank goodness!
To add, when we were kids we had laminated maps (world, and more detailed ones of different countries) on the walls and back of the door in the toilet. Maybe those would be easier to clean for those who are fearful. Why not make the most of your time in there and learn something.
Love this post. There's this whole category of "bathroom readers"(someone mentioned the Uncle John reader) that I've always been fascinated by--there's quite a few of them, so I imagine that a lot of people buy them and put them in their bathrooms.
I think the bathroom's too damp to keep any kind of paper in it. Plus I have a tiny NYC apartment bathroom--adds too much clutter.
I place all critical reading material (mutual fund prospecti, self-help books) in the bathroom wine-crate "book cases." It's the best-lit room and has a captive audience.
I wrote and sized my second book with bathroom readership in mind:
(Also: Love the bathroom in the photo. I inherited one of those giant Nat'l Geo wall maps and will do same now.)
magazines MUST be in the bathroom!
we have a basket full of magazines next to the toilet: design magazines and also cooking magazines :-DDD
a friend of mine has also Bible there...
I, too, am quite weirded out by reading material in the bathroom. I feel like if you have time to read on the toilet, you might need to add some fiber to your diet, if you know what I mean? My boss used to disappear for a good 30 minutes or so and emerge from the bathroom with a magazine dogeared with articles to share (shudder).
We have a gorgeous orange plastic basquet (with hearts) were we keep the newspapers, magazines and even some comics' books. And it works, because that way the newspapers and magazines articles will be all read! :)
Have them but hide them! :)
We always have a bunch of magazines in our bathroom - simply because that way, we ensure that they get read!
No way dude, there are poop particles ALL OVER THE PLACE in bathrooms, and think of all those people who poop or pee, then wipe, then close their book, then wash their hands, GROSS.
wow, i'm with the few people who don't understand all you delicate "eww"ers -- no one holds onto the reading material WHILE they wipe, or even after--after wiping you wash your hands and leave, duh. nothing unsanitary about it.
as for the many, many people who "don't get" why someone would be in there long enough to read: i envy your prompt pooing. some of us have more complicated systems! and, as you age i hear it is far more common to, so to speak, take your time. nothing disgusting about it, bodies are bodies, doin their thing however they do it.
I think the moral of this story is that men take FOREVER to do their business. I think women are just in and out. Less time for reading.
I would never get to a read or browse a single one of my fashion magazines if they were not in the bathroom. Not that that happens often. I have two small boys that seem to think it is their job to interrupt. However, we us one of the drawers for the books and magazines, so it is not seen or around for possibly accidents due to potty training...
The funny part is...most people are worried about the germs that get on the reading material...but their toothbrushes, hair brushes, toileteries are all in there all the time!
I think it's gross. My sister and her family think I'm weird and she and her husband and 2 young kids all read in the bathroom. Sometimes when her daughter is engrossed in a book, she take forever to come out of the bathroom! Glad to know I'm not the only one grossed out by this! :)
i'm with kristi, some of us have more complicated systems!
also i think its so funny that everyone is freaking about the germs. we keep so many other things in the bathroom all the time! what about your toothbrush? that goes in your mouth!
The comments about germs make me laugh a little! I'm not sure if anyone ever got sick from reading something in the bathroom! Plus, don't you just wash your hands when you leave anyways?
My parents (actually, my dad mostly) used to have reading material in the bathroom. We don't but I don't think it's tacky or anything... I've actually been over to friend's houses that keep catalogs in their bathroom, and guests come out and talk about interesting things they saw! They guests seemed to really appreciate it.
haha! I would prefer NOT having magazines in the bathroom, or even books for that matter. However, my husband thinks it's absolutely necessary to have 'em in there. So I've pretty much had to compromise.
=(
Reading in the bathroom is a must. I have been caught, more than once, doing the potty dance in front of the bookcase because I needed new reading material. I even bought us a TP holder that has an attached magazine rack.
That being said, this is all for our private ensuite bath. The hall bath that guests use sports no reading material. I used to have a Garrison Keillor joke book in there, but I haven't had a book in there for a while. I figure if you're a guest, you're probably want to get in and out so no one knows what you're up to...
DON'T...just say no!
Joanna, this conversation reminds me of a favorite Seinfeld episode where George brings an art book into the bookstore bathroom! ha! :)
Absolutely must have magazines (The New Yorker)in the bathroom! It's my only time to have an excuse to be in there reading. With two kids I never get time to myself, except when I'm doing my business! I take full advantage!
I do agree they should not be in the guest bathroom, only your own bathroom.
I'm not sure what your Doctor's offices are like in the USA but here (England) we have magazines in our waiting rooms! Now that is horrible as everyone there is ill! I cringe at the bacteria on the old 1990's Living Etc's :)
So your own bathroom seems not as bad in the scheme of things as we all wash our hands!!!
Haha! I have always been grossed out by this - it just feels vulgar to me, but I know so many people who think it's totally normal. One of my roommates in college even left a book of crossword puzzles in there!
I love reading in the bathroom!
I have to say it is a definite DON'T in my book. Imagine all of the germs involved... Eww...
Huh. I'm stumped by all the people who think it's gross or weird to have reading material in the bathroom. i do and think it's great. That is basically how I get any reading done. And I don't need it to pass the time, so to speak, it just feels like multi-tasking. My legs have even gone numb occasionally from sitting there too long, engrossed in whatever it was I was reading.
We don't have a guest washroom though so now I'm wondering how many of my friends have been grossed out by the existence and visibility of the reading material...
I'm not a huge fan, nor am I an avid bathroom reader.... but I'm moving in with my boyfriend in the fall and it's a necessity for him (sidenote: boys are gross). We're stocking out bathroom with Where's Waldo books, Eye Spys and Magic Eye books, though!
- Danielle
I don't know why anyone would be in the bathroom that long, unless they're sick.. In which case, I wouldn't want to read.
LOL. Joanna, what a funny topic. Our bathroom in our apartment is too small to keep reading material in there but as someone who gets a little anxious sitting still for more than a minute, I wouldn't mind reading material in a guest bathroom XD Also, is it really that unhygienic? We keep our toothbrushes in the bathroom, after all.
Also, my father used to keep a little handheld electronic yahtzee game in his bathroom. Maybe that is too far, but I agree with other posters--I think it might be a man thing!
One more thing, did you know there is actually a "bathroom reader" book? I can't remember where I saw this, but it's kind of hilarious.
I do not keep reading material in my bathroom simply because I find it embarrassing! Living by myself though, I tend to have a lot of weird habits that I don't notice until my friends point out. For example, the other night my friend said, "So are you reading like seven different books right now? Because you have like seven books scattered throughout every room and each one has a little bookmark tucked halfway in." My house is littered with books but I hadn't even realized that I was currently reading that many, or that I had spread them out in every room! Every room except the bathroom...haha (:
My husband use to work in an office of about 5 other people (all women) once or twice I used their office bathroom and noticed there was a big stack of books mostly daily inspiration type stuff (specifically geared towards women). I thought this was weird. Do whatever at home but should you really be getting that settled in at work?
I have to be honest...I am not a fan. That said, my husband walks out of the bathroom with MY magazines and I want to kill him! REALLY? Once in the bathroom, they should not be allowed out! Just a thought.
Definitely some more Puritanical commenters here than I am.. I don't personally keep reading material in the bathroom, but I get a kick out of it when others do (and I will usually settle down to read for a few minutes even though I'm done using the restroom.) A funny friend of my mom's used to keep the book Everyone Poops in her bathroom, which always cracked me up.
I'm never in there long enough to read. My future hubby, though, enjoys it. It doesn't bother me. I figure as long as you put it down between wiping and washing your hands, there's no harm!
this is so funny! my husband is outraged by magazines in the bathroom. it doesn't bother me, but it is like the biggest deal in the world to him. i can't wait to show him this!
kelly of
I've seen people commenting about correlations between super anal people who dislike magazines and books in bathrooms and being uncomfortable with their bodies and such - I love my body, have no shame of talking about these things or of being naked - I don't care about these things. :) I don't have to "get away" from my natural functions as soon as possible - it just simply takes me like 20 seconds to do my business and I'm certainly not gonna hang around afterwards haha
maybe try kombucha ;) haha
My parents and brothers always had magazines and books in their bathrooms, but never the guest bathroom. I always just thought it was normal for people to read in there every once in a while. Haha what's wrong with multitasking? :)
So glad I'm not the only one weirded out by this. I just really don't think reading material belongs in the bathroom... but obviously this is a personal thing! I don't care if other people do it. Although, I agree with other commenters that it puts that mental image in your head, haha.
this is hilarious, why people get so grossed out about magazines in the bathroom, you keep your tooth brush in there too don't you?
These comments are so fascinating! Books or other reading material in the bathroom are a nice idea- they can be quirky or reference, or entertainment- anything to pass the time when spending a little longer than anticipated in the powder room :) Other people's bathrooms (*not* their medicine cabinets!) are always interesting to check out. Besides, I'm all for being real and acknowledging something that some call "gross", and I call something we all do as a natural bodily function. (reminds me of that children's book, "Everybody Poops" :)
This is giving me ideas for designing my own bathroom- and I love your makeover photos, Joanna! What a difference!
What I do in the bathroom is strictly business, not pleasure, so no, I do not have reading material in my bathrooms. Occasionally I have brought a book in there with me throughout my life, but not recently and not often. I spend as little time in there as possible.
I have my own bathroom (we're lucky to have three in our little townhouse) and I keep reading material in there. I found that after I had my daughter, I find my alone time is only unquestioned/uninterrupted if I'm in the bathroom, so I tend to linger. Now, I know this sounds gross, I actually look forward to my little escape. It's not like I'm having appetizers and wine or anything. I also store my mags up on a shelf away from the toilet. :)
We totally do! Maybe it's because I live in a house full of boys, but we all read in the bathroom. I think we probably made it seem okay and normal because books in the bathroom were part of potty training. I guess we just don't freak out about germs...after all, we do wash our hands and the bathroom is spot cleaned every day. We don't leave magazines out for guests, but I'm pretty sure our guest bath has a drawer full of Lego magazines my boys have stashed in there:) When my boys were babies, the bathroom was often the only quiet time I had all day. So, yes, I did bring a magazine in with me on occasion!
Ugh, no. I am so not a bathroom reader. I'm trying to "train" my husband to stop doing it, but little success so far.
I think it's don't! Besides the "cootie" issue, I don't think toilets are very comfortable so why read a book in there? Leave books and other reading materials for company to curl up with on a comfy couch =)
TheLittleRosette
Haha, I'm with you! I can't imagine what the heck people are doing in there that would take so long as to merit reading a book! I'll take a book in the bathtub with me every once in a blue moon, but it doesn't really touch anything other than clean hands! But I do take my phone in with me sometimes, which is probably more disgusting as it is closer to my face.
Haha love this!
I used to be okay with it when I was growing up but since living with the BF it's kinda started to gross me out.
The funniest part is when one of my magazines go missing I go running to the bathroom and come out saying "baaaaaaaaaabe - come on" , which he replies with a smirk.
Dang it! now I hide my magazines lol
-Michelle {LiveLoudly}
i couldn't help but laugh at the post, I have a range of material in my bathroom from Bobbi Brown makeups how to's, to National Geographic Traveler to the actual Bathroom Book series, haha!
When I want my husband to read an article about raising kids, being more awesome than he already is, or look at something I want to discuss buying, I set it in there for him.
I do in the guest bathrooms, but...no. I think it's gross. Once in the bathroom, they are only for bathroom. I do have a funny book (I can't remember the exact name) that's specifically for bathroom reading.
I'm with you, I find it super weird. Do you really want people to hunker down and stay a while?
Funny post- We don't have a guest bathroom but I was always against any sort of bathroom reading material until I got married. I have to compromise on some things, right? My husband thinks is totally normal to have reading material in there so we have a basket that holds our New York mags and other related reading material. I've laid down the rule of- once it's in there, it stays in there until it's ready to get tossed. At least he agrees with that!
hubs and I just carry our own in if we're going to be a while. We do keep one book of sudoku puzzles in there. We jokingly call them the "poozles" =)
I'll bring something into the bathroom to read with me (as does my husband), but I won't leave magazines or books there when company come over.
OMG I didn't realice about the germs!!! I have a chic basket full of chic magazines in MY GuEST BATHROOM!!!... there is nothing chic about it :-&
A definite DON'T for me. Although, it might be fun to do a little social experient. You could put some magazines in there and see who is more likely to be in the bathroom longer hahaha
Sometimes you need to take your mind off of things to let everything....relax?
i really like this map wallpaper.
PEOPLE! How can you think reading in the bathroom is weird?! I keep magazines in the bathroom and I always read a bit, even if I am only in there for a few seconds. It's a lovely escape (especially if you have a baby).
Also - why is it gross? You are touching the magazines BEFORE you do any...er... wiping or flushing. So I see no problem there.
Also... if I am at your house and you have no reading material, I will find something to read for sure. Shampoo bottle, lotion bottle.... anything within reach is game!
I was at my little sister's house last weekend and noticed a children's book in her bathroom called "Underwear Do's and Don'ts"...and I thought that was really funny. Then I remembered I gave it to her for Christmas a few years back...and then it was even funnier.
I keep my Jcrew catalogues and old magazines in my bathroom. I really like having my space and alone time, so sometimes I just sit in there and chill out away from my fiance. I throw them out every couple of months, and I don't really care what kind of message that sends to other people. There's WAY too many other things to worry about than if my guests are creeped out by a magazine. Just don't touch it then! Plus, I read them before my hands come in contact with anything, *ahem*. And even if there's germs on the reading material, I always wash my hands before leaving the bathroom, so that problem is taken care of. Actually, I'm more grossed out by the idea that some people AREN'T washing their hands at home!
don't! i just think it's weird and i have never in my life felt the need or been in the bathroom for a length of time that required reading material - i don't understand it. not to mention i'm a total germaphobe and i feel like they are just so gross!
Always! grew up with magazines and gardening books next to the toilet. now I have a plethora of reading material (but only in MY bathroom, not the guest!! I guess I can see how it could be gross . . . maybe something could splatter??
yeah sure we do! Just a natural thing around here. No biggie :o)
We have baskets of magazines in both bathrooms at my parent's house. It's the only time anyone has a chance to read them! And my mum and I are both bathtub readers... some of my favourite books are sad and wrinkled because they've been dropped in the bath :-)
If the loo is in a seperate room, it's nice to have a read while soaking in the bathtub.
We have a full bathroom; bathtub, shower, wash area + loo = NO. There is just something irksome about toilets and reading material. Hygiene? Time factor?
Absolutely! We have a huge basket full of magazines. There's a little something for everyone. I often catch my five year old sitting there with a magazine spread out on her lap. It cracks me up!!!
Funny thing ... I think men and reading in the bathroom go together ... but women ... no. My husband always takes his phone in the bathroom and scrolls through his Twitter feed and totally takes his time. I get in and out quickly. Even when we're out, and we both go in a public restroom at the same time, I always beat him out.
haha, 401 K's for dummies sounds like a book I should read!
The other day...in 2010?
I love your blog, but isn't there another way than to lie about when conversations/events occur? (such as, "a couple years ago, I was at a friend's house [I mentioned this on Glamour at the time] and they had magazines in their bathroom!")
Just a thought to consider for any similar future posts.
That is so funny that you wrote about this. I was *just* thinking about it this morning. My husband has been known to finish a novel while on the John. I, on the other hand, only go in there if I have business to take care of. Then I leave. There is no lingering and finishing novels for me.
Yes to reading material in the bath area, one of the only changes I get to read at home is in the bath. But no to reading material in the toilet. Get in get out, on need to hang around people.
Lol some opinions around this are funny! My hubby spends forever on the loo (which is slightly annoying when it's only one toilet in the house!), and if my system is moving a bit slow, then it's nice to have something to do while you're waiting - and besides, if you shut the lid you shouldn't have too many problems (and the smell dissipates faster too). I mean, you have toothbrushes, bottles of face cream and deodorant and all sorts of things... just wash your hands and you're all good! Germs/bacteria find it difficult to live on a magazine page, mostly because they require a surface that stays warm and damp to be able to breed, and they don't get terribly close to anything that will give it enough time to breed. Things like your phone however can provide nice places for germs to breed, because of its proximity to your face/hair/ear when you use it.
I'm fairly certain the whole 'red flagging' thing is pretty exclusive to men. Forget about the reading material in the bathroom being weird. Let's talk about the residue possibly left on said reading material. Yuck! I'm a bit of a germaphobe though.
Joanna,
As others have pointed out, this post is pretty much a rehash of a 2010 Glamour post.
What I don't get is why you haven't bothered to make any reference to the old post, when you acknowledged the need for it in your apology for the "misstep" in
The apology rings hollow when you jump straight back into making the same "misstep".!!
-Megan
meganesass.blogspot.com
After having children I started reading in the bathroom - that's the only place I seem to have to myself for a few minutes. Children change us so much. :) |
This post is for my readers who were questioning the need for strengthening the existing legislation regarding defending freedom of religion and free speech rights in Canada.
Mike at The Good Fight has linked to an excellent article by Ted Byfield at the Calgary Sun, which lists all sorts of court challenges over the last few years.
Notably, but not limited to (and I have paraphrased Ted's words here):
-Bill Whatcott, an evangelical Christian and a licensed practical nurse who was fined $15,000 by his professional association for protesting against abortion on his own time and $20,000 by the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission for speaking out against homosexuality.
-the Catholic school in Whitby, Ontario, which was forced by the Ont. Supreme Court to allow a homosexual student (Marc Hall) to take his boy friend to a school dance.
-seven marriage commissioners in Saskatchewan who have been forced to resign because they refuse to perform homosexual marriages.
-Mennonite camp north of Winnipeg which refused to rent its premises to a homosexual choir, and was dragged before the Human Rights Commission whose decision is pending.
-Hugh Owen, evangelical Christian who placed an ad in the Saskatchewan newspaper naming four Scriptural verses against homosexuals, and not even quoting them. He was forced to pay $4,500 in human rights fines.
-printer Scott Brockie refused to print material for a gay organization and was fined $5,000 and ordered to print it anyway. When he still refused, his case went to the Ontario Supreme Court and his legal bills added up to $170,000.
-Scott Boisson, the Calgary evangelical pastor who wrote a letter to a newspaper questioning the promotion of homosexuality in the public schools. When he was charged, he held a fund-raising dinner for help with court costs. Something calling itself the Gay Militia, wearing masks, burst in on the dinner and tried to break it up.
-Kamloops teacher, Chris Kempling, who was suspended for daring to question homosexual marriage in a letter to the editor, and was suspended for four months without pay, though there was no evidence whatever he had mentioned this view in a classroom. And when he was asked to appear before a Commons committee, he was put under investigation again by his superiors.
And so on. But many people have willful blinders on, and even this evidence will be lost on them.
Update: This is quite an impressive post argued from the other POV. Why Gay Marriage is Good Conservative Policy. You know, I can't argue with that. It would certainly be easier to go with the flow. I guess it depends what's important.
46 comments:
Quite the boy that Ted:
In his heyday as founder and editor-in-chief of the feisty, ultra-conservative Alberta Report newsmagazine, Ted Byfield was famous for his newsroom rants and rages.
Mellowed, perhaps, but Byfield remains a salty-tongued, hard-drinking yet devout Christian who displays a drive and tenacity lacking in many people half his age.
Source
Now open to new information is fine. The first case that Ted cites is Bill Whatcoot.
Saskatchewan human rights tribunal ruled that Bill Whatcott, pictured, incited hatred against gays and lesbians and he's been ordered to pay a $17,500 fine. Whatcott and a group called the "Christian Truth Activists" distributed pamphlets in Regina and Saskatoon calling us "sodomites" in "filthy" same-sex relationships, "430 times more likely to acquire AIDS and three times more likely to sexually abuse children!" The fine will go to the four who filed the complaint against him.
Not exactly same material there.
Joanne, please do try to have credible sources next time - I'm not even going to waste time on the rest of your "examples"...
Actually Hugh Owen is amusing - he's one of those "creationist" that Man walked with Dinosaur - I'm sure that him a Doris Day get along fine...
CWTF - Typical ad hominems.
Why do I bother?
Hence:
But many people have willful blinders on, and even this evidence will be lost on them.
Joanne, I believe in Freedom of religion, but when you examples are radicals with an agenda, I fail to see your proof. You rally against "lobby" groups but wilfully site these ones because you agree with their message.
Your case would be better presented if you had credible examples. Intolerant zealots will not advance your cause.
1. Kempling was suspended for far more than "writing a letter to the editor". The man is a crank, who claims to be able to "cure" homosexuality using thoroughly debunked, dangerous reparative therapies. He was a school counsellor, not simply a teacher, and was in a position to do maximum damage to any gay teen that entered his office.
2. The Knights were fined for breaking a contract and generally being rude about it. Their right to deny a hall rental to gay and lesbian weddings was upheld.
3. Mark Hall went to the human rights tribunal to uphold his right to participate in a dance held on public property, off school premises, and far away from the parish church.
4. Hugh Owen cited Leviticus 20:13 in his ad. I believe that's the one that calls for homosexuals be put to death. Charming.
5. Marriage commissioners are commissioned by the state to execute their duty of performing legal, civil marriages, as defined by the federal government. If they can't or don't discriminate over every other religious objection to a marriage (interfaith, remarriage of divorcees, sacramental obligations), why is it OK to discriminate against gays alone?
6. Bill Whatcott is Canada's Fred Phelps. By all means, use him as an example of religious persecution. I'd love to see DORA devotees defend such calumnies as "gays are three times more likely to sexually abuse children", and "gays are 430 times more likely to contract an STD", or that the gay lifestyle only leads to "death, depravity and disease". By all means, associate the CPC with Bill Whatcott.
Bill Whatcott is spreading hate and lies - is this someone you want to represent you?
He's been convicted of hate-mongering, as for the pamphlet incident, it was because he was doing it without a permit on University grounds. Hardly religious persecution....
The Marc Hall is not persecution (unless you count the school board denying his rights). The school receives public funds and as such cannot discriminate. If it was a private school, then likely it could have banned Marc Hall from bringing his boyfriends to the prom on religious grounds.
With Scott Brockie, I'd agree that you do have a some valid arguments.
I have not read enough on the other cases (not what is posted on religious sites but the court documents) to be able to do justice to them.
valiantmauz, thanks for the update.
Of course, I have a feeling the ones with blinders will not understand what you wrote.
Re Scott Brockie:
Google his name and the last item on page 1 is a court document. Many of the higher ranked search results appear to be the "usual suspects".
Sometimes I read them, you may find inadvertent mention of the facts of the case, but it is a tedious process picking over the indignant rhetoric that often ensues.
And c_wtf, you walked right into one of Joanne's classic traps, where she can label you an "ad hominem" attacker, while at the same time mentioning everyone else's "willful blinders" causing them to ignore her "evidence". Of course she will accuse me of the same, by referring to most of a page of google search result summaries as "the usual suspects"
A page from the factum:
Quote:
8. Running a general print-shop for the public at large is a commercial enterprise and is not a manifestation of religious beliefs.
9. In delivering a service available to the general public, printers are required to comply with the laws of the land which cover matters such as copyright obscenity and hate literature. Thus a printer is entitled (and even required) to refuse to print material which infringes copyright, or violates Canada's obscenity or hate literature laws. Beyond that, however, freedom of expression is not enhanced by allowing printers to scrutinize the contents of materials and deny printing services to viewpoints they disagree with. This would lead to censorship and a stifling of freedom of expression.
Thanks Cherniak_wtf. I don't want a flame war with Joanne or anybody else, but this DORA idea is purely reactionary, vengeful, unconstitutional, and targetted at one tiny minority of Canadian citizens. It's not a Defense of Relions Act - it's an Attack on Gays Act. It's an attempt to write into law the one acceptable bigotry.
A very little digging exposed the "persecution" of Scott Brockie. Press release available here.
Money quote:
"The original complaint was filed with the Ontario Human Rights Commission in the spring of 1996. Mr. Brillinger had asked Imaging Excellence and Mr. Brockie to print stationery for the organization [Canadian Lesbian and Gay Archives].."
I suppose we really do need legislation to protect our right to say: "We don't serve your kind here".
I'd also like to point out that the Brockie case has not one d**m thing to do with same-sex marriage.
The places I looked didn't mention that Scott Brockie's trigger was a print job with the offensive words on it. That's why elsewhere we see he says he would have done business cards for the gay guy, and even has gays working for him. But it looks like printing something with the offensive words "gay" and "lesbian" was the problem.
To continue with the guilt by association ad hominem attack, I found a site from an organization that supports Mr. Brockie:
The Canadian Association For Free Expression.
In their article, they describe him "feeling the might of Canada's militant homosexual lobby and their allies in the Ontario Human Rights Commission."
Meanwhile, elsewhere on their site, they are defending a gentleman who posted at "", where you will see a nice stylized cross with "white power world wide" written on it. The usual anti-Semitic "free speech" can be found there.
Would you support Scott Brockie's freedom to refuse to print Jewish materials?
But of course it's the Liberals who are anti-Israel.
Hmmm...'looks like your comments section has been hi-jacked by the blinkered, bigoted, biased, and left/lib/fem/gay brigade.
They make Ted Byfied's and your point exactly. So what if people were "rude"? So what if they quoted Bible passages that offended certain groups? So what if the guy's "a crank"?
All of these situations are covered in Canada by freedom of expression and freedom of religion. When people are free to express their religious views or their views on other things, it doesn't matter if you're offended. What you have to say is equally offensive and rude to the Knights, to the crank, and to those who may have been rude to you.
Grow up, cherniak_wtf and valiantmauz: 'Next thing you know, the Frankenstein monster that's been created by these Human Rights (sic and sick) Commissions is going to come after you and your ilk, and then you'll be screaming bloody murder. Go ahead. No one will be listening.
BTW, Ted Byfield is an amazing man. He is an exceptional writer and editor and has been responsible for the journalistic education of a huge number of Canada's most influential journalists. Even those who are far more liberal and left than he is, speak very highly of him and admire his tenacity and his courage of his convictions.
Compared to him, you're a pipsqueak, cherniak_wtf.
Also, I detect a rather nasty bias and bigotry towards Christians these posts.
That's really "open" and "tolerant" of you. Take a look in the mirror the next time you take your anti-religious, anti-people-who-don't-think-like-you hatchets out.
If you don't defend the rights of others to say things with which you disagree or to say things that "offend" you, then you'll find that your rights to do the same--and believe me, your views pi**me off--may well be taken away from you at some future time.
Don't be so cocky. Your ignorance is showing.
Dear anonymous - aka gutless.
Point me to one word of my posts that is anti-Christian. Just one. I dare ya.
The stories of the Caladonia March for Freedom posted at CTV, CBC, and canoe are laughable.
I think its' fair to point out those examples of authoritarian abuses.
The heavy handed wielding of various rules and priviledges especially the "Human rights Commissions" which seem to be operating as extra-legal entities above the law are an affront to our principles of democratic justice.
That's why Harper's proposed legislation is making sense.
In reality though we should never have been put in the postition of needing more laws to correct existing bad ones.
At least at a local level school board trusties and officials can be taken to task by voters.
Swift - Busy day. Just checking that out now. Thanks.
Swift - Here's what's laughable!!!
You don't know the half of it. I was there.
Oh poor Bill Whatcott, former “drug abuser and sexual addict” who claims he was screwed in a half-way house by “sodos” at the age of 17 and who used to cruise the YMCA for casual sex with other men. The same Bill Whatcott with two broken marriages, whose avatar at FreeDominion is Jesus (a bit pretentious, wouldn’t you say?), and who spends every waking hour of his miserable, desperately pathetic life now railing against, what he describes as “homos, fudge-packers, deviants and sodomites.” The same Bill Whatcott who masquerades under a Fred Phelps like wingnut group called “Christian Truth Activists” that incites hatred against homosexuals accusing them of being disease carriers and child abusers and who describes same-sex marriages as “filthy.” You mean THAT Bill Whatcott?
Charming company you’re keeping there Joanne.
Oh, and Ted Byfield is a crackpot.
But many people have willful blinders on, and even this evidence will be lost on them.
A nice attempt by Joanne to poison the well, but then there was this post:
valiantmauz said...
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6.
Oh Snap! By the numbers! Damn you valiantmauz and your reality-based community!
Well guys, if you won't accept my sources, I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Interesting link in your update. I've always wondered why the Tories never supported SSM. To me, I think that gay marriage would fit nicely into the whole "freedom from the state" doctrine - a philosophy that I adhere to as well.
Zac, right. Politically speaking, it would make a great deal of sense.
I was thinking more along ideological lines, but politically it would make sense also. I see this as an albatross that I'm sure Harper would like to rid himself of. If I was a CPC strategist, I would hold the vote in the fall, watch it fail, be done with it and concentrate on polishing the moderate label.
But that's just me though...
If I was a CPC strategist, I would hold the vote in the fall, watch it fail, be done with it and concentrate on polishing the moderate label.
It will probably go down that way no matter when the vote is held.
Joanne - it's not the sources that are the problem. The problem is that Byfield's column was fundamentally dishonest: "oh look at this list of poor persecuted religious folk", and completely ignoring the context of each case. Bad journalism, horrendously simplistic presentation.
Please tell me why you think that each of the "persecuted" deserve to have their religious views trump other Canadians' rights.
Tell me why it's acceptable to have a guidance counsellor in a school that is a) openly hostile to gays and b) offering quack cures to his students?
Tell me why Bill Whatcott deserves the right to tell outright lies about gays and lesbians.
Tell me why Hugh Owen should be allowed to publish an ad citing a Bible verse that advocates the death penalty for gays.
Tell me why Catholic beliefs should extend to a dance on public property, outside of school or Church, and where the participants are in their late teens.
Tell me why it's acceptable to deny printing stationery because it contains the words "Lesbian and Gay Archives". Not porn, not propaganda - stationery.
Tell me why it's ok for a marriage commisioner to deny a civic marriage to a gay couple, yet ignore every other "religious" requirement for marriage like interfaith, remarriage and sacramental obligations.
Futhermore, tell me why religious freedom deserves to trump all other freedoms set out in the Charter.
Make your case.
Valiantmauz - Why don't you go to the source and write a letter to the editor? I didn't write the column.
Joanne (True Blue) said...
Valiantmauz - Why don't you go to the source and write a letter to the editor? I didn't write the column.
I love it! You put up a post entitled In defence of defence of religions act wherein you cite this article's "examples" of so-called religious persecution. Valiantmauz comes along and catagorically shoots down all the examples, but instead of defending your position you play the "well...I didn't write it" card. Classic!
"Why don't you go to the source and write a letter to the editor? I didn't write the column."
How disingenuous.
Your post quoted the article extensively and approvingly, and went on to accuse those who oppose DORA of having willful blinders on.
I have proven - definitively, I think - that it is Byfield who is willfully blind, and by extension, you as well.
As this is your blog, it is your prerogative to ignore my information and my questions.
CC - I offered it as some examples. Clearly you don't like them.
Nothing I can do about that.
Yup. That's me. disingenuous
I thought it was more polite than openly calling you dishonest. I do try to be polite.
Not a problem. I'll try to come up with some better examples.
If anyone doubts that we do need a Defense of Religions Act, just examine gay lobbyists like Laurie Aaron from EGALE were saying on TV interviews when the story broke. To paraphrase, it was something like: "How dare the Conservative government protect those who speak against gay marriage!".
Do you really need a translator? In plain english that means: "We deserve the right to jail anyone who speaks against homosexuality. It's our right. Don't dare take it away from us."
Could any other meaning be taken from Mr. Aaron's comments? What's even more scary is that the mainstream media echoed the exact same sentiment in their headlines: "Conservative government to protect opponents of same-sex marriage".
Jake, thanks for your input. Great point.
Good letter here from Alberta that is related to what you are saying.
This part is particularly well written:
"...Each new issue is the staging ground for the next. First we were assured that this was just about discrimination. Then it was equal benefits for gay couples, but not marriage. Next, it was marriage. And now it's public education and state-enforced punishment of any criticism..."
Previous letter was written by Ted Morton, BTW.
Ah, yes. Here's the infamous editorial in the Leader-Post stating that ."
The other side of the coin is the statements of sime of the more extreme gay spokesmen against heterosexuals that to me clearly are an attempt to promote hatred. Hate literature? not according to the gay spokesmen.
Swift, that's true. Bigotry can occur on either side; usually involving extremists.
From Diogenes' blog:
Joanne (True Blue) said...
Valiantmauz, knock the chip off your shoulder and you won't be weighed down so much.
8:56 PM
valiantmauz said...
Joanne, your indignation would be more credible if you applied yourself to answering some of the points I raised on your blog, rather than attacking me personally on another's.
Look: here's the blog:
Fill yer boots and send your flying monkeys my way, if you're so inclined.
Otherwise, ya just look cranky.
4. Hugh Owen cited Leviticus 20:13 in his ad. I believe that's the one that calls for homosexuals be put to death. Charming.
Valiantmauz - That could be interpreted to mean death of the soul, or the opposite of eternal salvation (from what I have heard).
If they can't or don't discriminate over every other religious objection to a marriage (interfaith, remarriage of divorcees, sacramental obligations), why is it OK to discriminate against gays alone?
Indeed. In Manitoba they can "discriminate" over everything except gay marriage. You are well protected.
By all means, associate the CPC with Bill Whatcott.
It was Ted Byfield who made the reference.
Please tell me why you think that each of the "persecuted" deserve to have their religious views trump other Canadians' rights.
Please tell me why you would want to force someone to perform a gay marriage when they were against it in their heart.
Tell me why it's acceptable to have a guidance counsellor in a school that is a) openly hostile to gays and b) offering quack cures to his students?
I am sure that gay students could find an appropriate counsellor who would be sympathetic to their concerns.
Tell me why Bill Whatcott deserves the right to tell outright lies about gays and lesbians.
So if someone says something that isn't true they should be fined?
Tell me why Catholic beliefs should extend to a dance on public property, outside of school or Church, and where the participants are in their late teens.
Because it is an affront to the faith, but as you know, the Church lost this one anyway.
Tell me why it's acceptable to deny printing stationery because it contains the words "Lesbian and Gay Archives". Not porn, not propaganda - stationery.
Why should anyone be forced to do a job that they fundamentally don't agree with?
Futhermore, tell me why religious freedom deserves to trump all other freedoms set out in the Charter.
I don't think anyone is looking for that. Equality is the target.
Now you make your case.
Beyond that, however, freedom of expression is not enhanced by allowing printers to scrutinize the contents of materials and deny printing services to viewpoints they disagree with. This would lead to censorship and a stifling of freedom of expression.
I wonder what a radical Muslim printer would do if given a job to print pro-Jewish literature or vice-versa. Would they be allowed to decline the job? |
Blue Jays - 000 021 400 - 7 8 2 Red Sox - 003 000 030 - 6 5 0
Buchholz (5-3-3-5-3, 94) started the evening by walking two of the first three batters, but after a lull while the umpires reviewed a possible home run down around the Pesky Pole by Adam Lind (it was ruled a foul ball), he settled down, retiring 12 of the next 13 batters.
Toronto's first four runs were scored by guys who had walked. Buchholz walked the Jays' #8 and #9 hitters in the fifth and they scored on Corey Patterson's triple. Another HH BB scored on Travis Snider's double off Felix Doubront.
After walking the leadoff hitter in the seventh, Bobby Jenks -- who had not allowed a hit all season (14 batters over four innings) -- allowed singles to four of the next five Jays to put Boston in a 7-3 hole.
In the bottom of the eighth, lefty Marc Rzepczynski retired Adrian Gonzalez, but walked Youkilis and David Ortiz. After he struck out J.D. Drew, he wild-pitched the runners to second and third. With two outs, Jed Lowrie pinch-hit for Jarrod Saltalamacchia and singled one run home on a grounder behind the bag at third. Casey Janssen came in to face Marco Scutaro and Scutaro banged a double off the Wall for two more runs. With the tying run at second, Jacoby Ellsbury ended the inning with a first-pitch fly out to right.
In the ninth, Carl Crawford (0-for-5) struck out on three pitches, and was booed by the remaining fans. Pedroia grounded to short and Gonzalez grounded to first.
Brett Cecil / Clay Buchholz
First of four games against John Farrell's Blue Jays, including Monday's Patriots Day 11 AM start.
There is not much Terry Francona can do to spark the Red Sox, but he could -- and should -- make Jed Lowrie the starting shortstop. Repeating what I posted two days ago:
PA AVG OBP SLG OPS Lowrie 18 .438 .500 .563 1.063 Scutaro 33 .172 .273 .207 .480Lowrie 194 OPS+ would be 7th in the AL if he had enough qualifying plate appearances. Lowrie also had the third-best OPS (.907) on the team last year (in 197 PA).
AL East:
Yankees 7 4 --- Orioles 6 5 1.0 Blue Jays 6 6 1.5 Rays 4 8 3.5 Red Sox 2 9 5.07 PM: Rangers/Yankees; Orioles/Cleveland; Twins/Rays
462 comments:1 – 200 of 462 Newer› Newest»
Let's try something new tonight:
Winning!
***
Friday: Brett Cecil / Clay Buchholz
Saturday: Jo-Jo Reyes / Josh Beckett
Sunday: Jesse Litsch / Jon Lester
Monday: Ricky Romero / Daisuke Matsuzaka
I only dislike one of those matchups.
I don't think three out of four is too much to ask for.
Crawford LF
Pedroia 2B
Gonzalez 1B
Youkilis 3B
Ortiz DH
Drew RF
Saltalamacchia C
Scutaro SS
Ellsbury CF
Escobar SS
Patterson CF
Bautista RF
Lind 1B
Hill 2B
Arencibia C
Snyder LF
Rivera DH
Nix 3B
Scutaro SS
booooooooooooooooooooo
play the guy hitting .438!
On a really big part of the plus side, we're not facing Drabek.
Scutaro SS
Ferchrissake, Tito! Come on!
Now I see that Scutaro is 5-for-8 against Cecil.
(Darnell McDonald is 5-for-7, but nowhere in sight as Drew starts against the LH.)
Claude Julien is the worst coach in NHL history when he is in the playoffs.
Now I see that Scutaro is 5-for-8 against Cecil.
(Darnell McDonald is 5-for-7, but nowhere in sight as Drew starts against the LH.)
You expect Tito to be logical twice with regards to SSS?
Let's try something new tonight:
Winning!
Yeah!.... but not the Charlie Sheen version, which looks a lot like losing.
Cecil and Buchholz have both made 2 starts
Cecil: 10-16-8-3-6, 7.20
Clay: 10-13-8-5-5, 7.20
Playing Ortiz against lefties makes me shake my head, I would have Cameron at DH.
The winning streak starts today.
Buffyvision. MLB Audio to the rescue!
Ofer, yes! Let's all say it:
The winning streak starts today.
I only dislike one of those matchups.
Gee, I wonder which one ....
I wish I had Buffyvision! Blacked out at work, so it's WEEI for me. Not ideal.
Oh no the red uniforms
# 42
Dice-HH
What do they do with all those 42 jerseys later?
One from every team will be signed and auctioned, proceeds to Jackie Robinson Foundation. Don't know about the rest.
I don't like the hat, don't like the jerseys.
Why not sign and sell all of them?
To make them more valuable, maybe?
Sarcastic cheer
oh crap
Yeah, but if each player signed his own jersey, it would be worth something.
REALLY?? Is this the way to start this game?????
lovely
HR
oh fuck this shit
sounds like it was clearly foul on the replay.
replay please
It looked like a homer to me. Let's see the replay.
looks foul on replay
Okay, FOUL BALL.
obrien totally convinced it's foul
Remy and Don too. There is a question about the yellow line that runs down the stands. It is not lined up with the pole. But the ball went behind the pole. So do you go by the line or the pole? And why is the line not lined up with the pole?
FOUL
Very nice Posnanski piece on MannyBManny and his HOF future or not-so-future.
ah, that's better
Don and Jerry seem to have problems understanding the geometry of perspective.
Google Pesky Pole and look at the images. The line is off.
whew, it's a miracle, no one scored
jays strand a pair!
I remember announcers being confused about this same thing at the old Yankee Stadium in maybe 2008. If you look at the wall from head on, it looks like the line on the wall doesn't line up with the pole. But if you look straight down the line, you see that the line is right below the pole. (Should be, anyway.)
It hit the top of the wall to the foul side of the pole, so it's foul.
Don/Rem never noted the guy who reached out for the ball--he could have barely touched it.
I guess that makes sense Jere. I am directionallly challenged though.
Crawford safe
Castig & OB & their producer also saying lines down line up, but that it doesn't matter, because the foul pole is what you go by, not a line below it.
Safe. What is that trash?
a blown call at first on Craw?
Yes, he was barely safe, but his foot landed first.
that one was foul too :)
Even if that is where the line is supposed to be, it is not lined up at the very bottom, on the skirt that goes under the stands.
ROBOT UMPS, pls!
If you compare this pic to this pic you see how it's more lined up when looking straight down the line than it is when you look at it from right field. (The padding sticking out from the wall adds confusion, too.)
(That first pic is of redsoxdiehard, who comments here.)
It's weird that the TV and radio announcers don't know this.
Here's the Yankee Stadium effect I referred to: From down the line, pole lines up with line. From the side, the white line appears WAY to the left of the pole.
TEX - 01
MFY - 0
MIN - 00
TBR - 00
BAL - 000
CLE - 003* (and still batting)
OTT!
I'm so disappointed to not be home for the Patriots Day game. I love the 11:00 start, my favourite of the season.
Since the umps went to look at Lind's dong, Clay has been on point!
Good evening, all. Can we please win this game?
If you ever try to set up a football field with plastic cones on an unlined pitch, you'll see the same thing. It's impossible to straighten out the sideline on the end zone by yourself; you need somebody in the other end zone looking down the sideline to direct you.
Thanks for the pics, Jere. It makes sense - Edward Lee explains it well too. Now why don't Don, Jerry, Castig, OB or the Jays announcers know this? (Well, the Jays announcers are idiots, but still.)
Amy, haven't you heard, our huge winning streak starts today.
Another BB for Youk.
Yeah, thanks for the D, Jays.
We get a break! Imagine that!
I sure as hell am ready for that streak.
Re #42. Francona said that this day is important to remember what we did wrong, not pat ourselves on the back about what we did right. Very nice!!
I heard a snort and giggle, but I think it was only Remy.
E!
pour some salty in the jays' wounds!
Those Jays outfielders should be made to change jersey numbers between innings.
Hi Amy!!
Francona said that?? That is amazing!!
I get SO sick of the self-congratulations of MLB. It's exactly backwards.
DO and Remy saying "on fire" and talking about smelling fire coincidentally while Drew was up.
That was reported by Heidi. The clip started with her asking Microwave the hard hitting question of why it is important to honor JR as the first black man to play (or something like that). She then went on to report what Francona said.
Thanks, K. I'll look for quotes tomorrow. Or Allan will and I'll read them.
runs pls!
Thanks, K. I'll look for quotes tomorrow. Or Allan will and I'll read them.
Ha, it must be great having him around.
I think so. :)
Of course.
God damn....
ugh
a LOBotomy
Ha, it must be great having him around.
Ha, indeed.
Why can't we score runs??
Watching Ellsbury get blown away by 89 mph fastballs makes me a sad panda. :(
batting averages of 5 of the 9 players in tonight's lineup:
.149
.182
.148
.172
.184
yeah, not my favourite thing to see either
FYne play
OUT! FUCK YEAH
What is the team average, Allan? Below the Mendoza line, I assume.
THANK GOD FOR PEDROIA!
He said FY there!
Thanks for hitting the dirt 3 feet in front of the bag, ya chump.
jays suck :)
So my Boston daughter texted me yesterday:
"I think I just walked past Dustin Pedroia!!"
I say: "WOW! He's my new hero!"
M: "I think it was him, but he was really short. How tall is he?"
I say: "Short. 5 7 or so?"
M: "Yup, that was definitely him!"
Team AVG .230
Amazingly, not last in the AL. Oakland is tied with us, and Baltimore, Seattle, and Tampa Bay are worse.
Nice text :)
Allan, I guess those BAs answer my question, huh?
FY is our best player.
All these guys are much better than that. They have to start hitting some time!
RIGHT????
Yay to your daughter, Amy.
M also reported that she served drinks to the manager, GM and hitting coach for the Rays after the game they killed us in. I guess they were celebrating....
Yes, definitely my hero!!
FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!
BOOMSHAKALAKA
castig: "that was a howitzer! you talk about the laser show, there it is...."
How does this little guy DO that?
"that's how it's done son, that's how it's done son"- Randy
What I said...our best player.
Once upon a time, The Big Man carried this team until it straightened itself out. Now that job falls to the little guy.
EBBB
Man, that guy really booted that ball in the stands. First row of the monster and he misses the ball that badly.
It's better than what I would do - duck for cover.
Red Sox are the worst in the AL with a runner at third and less than two outs. They have scored the run only 12% of the time (11 of 30). MFY are the best, scoring 15 out of 18 times (83%).
SWEAT POWER!!!
NOW we're talking!!!
SULTAN OF SWEAT
camera well dong
WE HAVE A LEAD?!?!
OK Flo, your turn
It's getting sweaty in here.
Now that's more like it. Keep it going.
DO saying the laser show has just begun as Youk is at bat, before the dong.
MOAR RUNZ
3-0 in our favor? Much more like it.
A walk works too
Jays fan at work said Cecil has contracted PhilHughes Disease.
It appears he was right.
TEX - 011 0
MFY - 001
MIN - 000 0
TBR - 000 0
BAl - 000 10
CLE - 004 0
What exactly is a dead arm?
I could go for another 7 pitch inning right about now.
castig: "induced"
That's my boy! Nice catch.
LBJ at the wall!
OK, LBJ---there you go!
LBJ!! Nice speed, nice catch.
Amy, it means the pitcher's arm has muscle fatigue, the muscles don't recovery, so he can't pitch effectively. As far as I know, it's a catch-all term for that - not a specific injury, but the arm can't pitch.
Nice try!
Thanks, Laura---I always imagine it means the arm just hangs there, dead. So I assume the only treatment is resting the arm?
I wanna know how that ump knew the guy's front-of-toe was touching the base from his angle! (Was the right call, but, still...)
Luis "Grand Slam" Rivera!
TEX up 3-1 in the 5th
TEX 4-1!
Luis "Grand Slam" Rivera!
Ha ha, I was wondering if you'd bring that up.
My first game at Fenway? Or maybe just my first NYY game at Fenway. An experience, for sure. Wearing my old cap. :)
Amy, I really don't know, but I would guess so. Anyone else know what they do for a dead arm, besides rest? Lethal injection, maybe?
not first game, maybe/probably first ny game
The only grand slam of his career: August 31, 1990.
NYY pitchers that day included Eric Plunk and Greg Cadaret!
TEX 5-1!
OB casting aspersions on Don and Jerry's manhood
Dead Arm
HH pls don't BB
I saw that one too, while I was looking things up to answer your question. :)
"Let me Google that for you"
Ahh, that explains why Remy was saying he sees no reason to keep the windows open when it's cold and windy outside.
LOL, Laura! I didn't mean to make someone else look it up---just thought someone might know.
I'm at Coachella now. Got an alert from ESPN we were losing 3-0 and was upset, then confused later by alerts saying we were up 1-0 & 3-0. Game thread set me straight. Thanks!
Ha, must be, yeah. OB and Castig saying only windows closed in the media area is Don & Jerry's. OB: If the fans have to sit in the cold and wind, we should too. We can take it, we're man enough. (Paraphrase)
Wild 5th for Texas:
3 walks, including one with bases loaded; 3 wild pitches; and 1 HBP
Even when I know something, I generally take a quick look at Google to confirm before I post. Almost always.
Oh, damn.
Yes, I do that also.
What did we do before Google?
The only grand slam of his career: August 31, 1990.
That's hilarious. Only GS of his career. Obviously not my first game at Fenway if it's 1990.
NYY pitchers that day included Eric Plunk and Greg Cadaret!
Erick Plunk, is that Stephen King?
Yes, King.
Chuck Cary started for NYY, wasn't sure if that name would ring a bell.
Used the library? :(
I called people a lot for answers. Wrote stuff down and tried to look it up later. Often didn't get an answer for something that bothered me.
Get him out!
Chuck Cary, nope
OK, now we need more runs
Used the library? :(
When I was in high school, my quiz bowl team lost on the final question in the championship of a major tournament because of a dispute over Spock's exact title aboard the Starship Enterprise. The official had to call up the local librarian, who did a little bit of research and told us that the correct answer was "Science Officer", not "First Officer." True story.
On trips to YS as a kid, my Yank fan friend and I would pass "King Lumber" on 684, and it had its phone number on the building: 232 5151. My friend overruled me and used then-Yankee uni numbers to remember it by: "Donny Tolly Cary Cary" = Don Mattingly 23, Wayne Tolleson 2, Chuck Cary 51, Chuck Cary 51.
I hung out with this friend a few weeks ago and asked if he remembered King Lumber's number, and without skipping a beat he says Donny Tolly Cary Cary. (He then called the number and it's STILL King Lumber!)
So that's my Chuck Cary story.
True story, why not. :)
I used to call the NYPL to ask q's when I was a kid. Turns out that was a very famous service, the first of its kind. You could ask up to 3 q's and a librarian would call you back with the answer.
(He then called the number and it's STILL King Lumber!)
Only they've changed it to Bernie Williams?
That's a great story Jere. That's how my brothers would remember numbers! It's beautiful that you were able to relive it recently...and that he remembered!
But we never would call the library to find out what was the name of that actor who starred in that movie with what's her name who was in the TV show about... etc.
Those are the things I would be up all night trying to remember but for Google.
Amy, same here. For those things, I would call someone. Those are Google q's now.
Good God, Cleveland is kicking Baltimore's ass. 8-1.
"Only they've changed it to Bernie Williams?"
Yeah, 2, and 51 ended up being much higher-quality Yankees. (For today's kids who drive by King Lumber.) Pretty soon, the entire King Lumber number will be retired in Monument Park
FINALLY
There's a baseball-y term: "not fleet of foot".
Earlier I heard "pulled a string". I don't think you hear that outside of a baseball broadcast.
Can we get some 'pen action, please? I don't like how Clay has let two people on without breaking a sweat here.
Around the same time you were naming King Lumber's digits after Yankees, A & I lived near a house that had a very large number 23 painted on it. I always thought of it as the Mattingly house. It was a beautiful brownstone. The people had a whole bunch of dogs who would lie all over the couches and chairs. They were like a wealthier version of us.
My memory of The Mattingly House.
Near where one of Amy's daughters now lives.
Whoops! "Allison" is me! Hahahahaha! Hi, guys!
SWEATY DOUBLE PLAY!!!!
Nice DP!
Big big dp!
Ha ha, I was wondering who Allison was. The Tim syndrome.
Damn. Tied.
Uch. So annoying.
Second time in 2 games I have seen CC not make a move on a catchable ball.
I thought, "Who is Allison?"
Where was it, Laura? I will check it out next time we are in Park Slope.
Polhemus, off Garfield. Beautiful quiet street.
We lived at 216 Garfield, on the top floor. That's when I was a nanny. My former employer still lives there, so if you see her, say hi for me. :)
Meh, could have been a lot worse.
Runs plz.
Oh yeah, could have been way worse, the way he was pitching.
I meant Buchholz
I know where Garfield is, but not Polhemus. Will have to look it up. Were you a live-in nanny?
We had a separate apartment in the house.
Polhemus and Fiske are each one block long, they connect Garfield and Carrol, between 7th & 8th Aves.
"Garfield? You mean like the cat?"
OK, I will look for 23 Polhemus. Perhaps we will stroll by when we next get to BKLYN, probably in May or maybe June.
Behold the Mattingly House, 23 Polhemus.
Fiske Polhemus? Fisk Pole??
Does that mean Allan was "Mr. Nanny"?
the wonder of Google
And here is Chez L-Sock (with sign in window).
It's a shame that Tala is not peeking out through the curtains in the upstairs window.
That is a nice 23 on there.
I guess you'd have to ask him. :)
Pretty sure he was just the boy's friend. We went to "my" boy's wedding a few seasons ago. Someone may remember us gushing over this insane wedding. That was his. |
A BOOK IN PROGRESS [PART 9]: MARTIN LUTHER’S ACCIDENTAL REVOLUTION
October 14, 2011 § 7 Comments’..
Luther was the Petrarch of the Reformation, its Pico and its Erasmus too, its founding father, its voice and its soul. The Reformation, that great schism in sixteenth century Western Christendom out of which Protestantism emerged, was as historically transformative as the Renaissance. It is usually seen as the great leap forward, not just in Christianity but also in modernity. ‘Why can’t Islam have its own Reformation?’, is a common question asked by those who wish to suggest how backward is Islam compared to Christianity. The Reformation was, however, a deeply contradictory movement, or set of movements. It was as reactionary as it was revolutionary, as constraining as it was liberating. Luther’s view of human nature and of human freedom was as earth to the fire of Pico and Erasmus. And yet the Reformation he launched helped create a society in which Renaissance values could bear fruit.
Luther was born in1483 in Eisleben in the Holy Roman Empire, in what is today eastern Germany. His father, a miner and smelter, had hoped better for his children and provided them with an education. Martin had been training for the law when, according to his own account, he was, on a summer’s day in 1505, caught in a horrific thunderstorm. Afraid that he was going to die, he screamed out a vow, ‘Save me, St. Anna, and I shall become a monk’. St. Anna was the mother of the Virgin Mary and the patron saint of miners. He survived the storm and kept his vow. Within two weeks Luther had entered the Augustinian Monastery at Erfurt.
Luther’s thunderstorm story is in keeping with the Christian tradition of theatrical conversions to a life of faith such as that of Paul and of Augustine. As with Paul and Augustine, the drama of a sudden religious transformation provided a means of making sense of a longstanding personal trauma, a personal trauma that came also to have historical resonance because the psychological agony of the individual came also to mirror a deep-rooted social distress. In the monastic life Luther discovered the stability and assurance that seemed lacking outside. Salvation, he came to believe, was not something that humans could strive for, but was simply a gift of God. The most important Christian truth was, for Luther, the doctrine of justification – God’s act of declaring a sinner righteous – by faith alone through God’s grace. Traditional Christian teaching held that the righteous acts of believers are performed in cooperation with God. Luther insisted that righteousness came not from within at all but entirely from God. ‘Faith alone’, he wrote, ‘makes someone just and fulfills the law’.
The story that almost everyone knows about Martin Luther is of his nailing of the famous Ninety-Five Theses to the door of Castle Church in Wittenberg. This was a public challenge to the Pope, and to the Church, from which there could be no going back, the moment at which the division of Western Christendom became inevitable, and the Reformation was launched. At the heart of the Theses was a stinging criticism of the practice of granting indulgences, remission of temporal punishment for sins granted after the sinner had performed good work which increasingly included a payment to the Church. It was through such payment that the Church financed many of its great building projects in the Renaissance. In 1516, the Pope dispatched to Germany a Dominican friar, Johann Tetzel, to sell indulgences to raise money to help rebuild St Peter’s Basilica in Rome. Luther was outraged. He wrote to his bishop, Albert of Mainz, protesting at what he saw as the purchase of salvation. Enclosed with his letter was a document entitled Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences, which we now know as The Ninety-Five Theses. ‘Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?’, he asked in one of the theses.
In 1520, Pope Leo X issued a rebuttal entitled Exsurge Domine that demanded that Luther retract 41 errors. Luther refused and in 1521 he was excommunicated. Luther publicly burnt the bull of excommunication in Wittenberg, cheered on by a large crowd of townsfolk to whom he had become a hero. In April of that year, Luther was ordered to appear before the Diet of Worms, a general assembly of the estates of the Holy Roman Empire, in the Rhineland town of Worms, over which Emperor Charles V presided. Again Luther refused to recant. The Diet declared Luther an outlaw, banning his literature, requiring his arrest and making it a crime for anyone to give him food or shelter. The verdict was unpopular with German princes, many of whom sympathized with Luther. Frederick, the Elector of Saxony, arranged for Luther to be given safety in Wartburg Catsle, where he began his great German translation of the Bible.
* * * *
‘I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.’ So declared Luther at the Diet of Worms. This was a challenge not just to the Pope and to the Holy Roman Emperor, but also to Aristotle and Aquinas. Aquinas had seen reason as a spark illuminating the path to God. Not so, insisted Luther. Reason may be used to question human activities and institutions, but not to light up the divine. Humans could learn about God, Luther maintained, only through revelation.
This idea of two realities, the reality of God, given by revelation and the reality of the empirical world, given by direct experience, had already been expounded by William Ockham, a British Franciscan friar born shortly after Aquinas’ death. For Ockham, all human knowledge came through our senses. Reason could be applied only to such sensory knowledge, that is to the understanding of concrete particulars. Ockham was a nominalist. Nothing, he insisted, existed except as individual entities; universals were human creations that subsisted only as mental concepts and possessed no reality outside of human language and mind. The human mind possessed no divine light, as Aquinas had taught, by which the intellect could move beyond the senses to make sense of universals. Anything beyond the senses, such as the existence of God, could be revealed only by faith. This was true not just of God’s existence but of His laws too. The moral rules by which God wished us to live could not be understood by reason. They, too, had to be taken on faith.
Luther linked Ockham’s argument about the two realities, and the need to accept moral codes on faith, to a view of human nature darker even than Augustine’s. Humans were degenerate to the last fibre of being. Neither desire nor reason could be trusted to lead humans to moral safety, for both had been corrupted in the Fall. Were they not, Luther thundered, then Jesus would have died without cause:
If we believe that Christ redeemed men by his blood, we are forced to confess that all of man in lost; otherwise we make Christ either wholly superfluous or else the redeemer of the least valuable part of man only; which is blasphemy and sacrilege.
The only true moral rules are divine injunctions, such as the Ten Commandments. These had to be accepted on faith and unquestioningly followed. They could be justified on the basis neither of reason nor of desire. Any attempt to do so would lead to moral disintegration. It was an argument similar to that of the Islamic Traditionalists in their struggle with the Rationalists. There could be no rational accounting of God’s word. Human reason was too weak to comprehend God’s plan. But Luther being a Christian added a Christian twist to the argument. Human reason cannot understand God’s commands because it has become enslaved by sin. We can only follow God’s law by acting against reason. Nor could following God’s moral rules ever satisfy our desires, for our desires, too, have been corrupted with the rest of human nature. There always exists, therefore, an antagonism between what humans want and what God commands humans to do. Strict adherence to God’s law is, nevertheless, insufficient to ensure salvation. Luther is clear that nothing humans do can ensure salvation. Salvation is not a state to be achieved; it is a state to be received through God’s grace. God’s law allows human communities to survive by limiting moral chaos and the consequences of sinfulness. It does not make humans moral. It simply constrains their capacity for immorality. All humans can do is close their eyes, shut out reason and desire, accept God’s word on faith and hope for the best in the next world.
Do the gods love the good because it is good, Socrates had wondered in Plato’s Euthyphro, or is it good because it loved by the gods? Unless the gods love something for no good reason, then they must love something as pious because it inherently possesses value. But if it inherently possesses value, then it does so independently of the gods. Luther’s answer, like that of Muslim Tradionalists, was unambiguous. There was no rhyme or reason to God’s law. Humans had to accept God’s idea of the good simply because God tells us it is good not because they could justify it through reason or through any external measure. Morality was indeed arbitrary. That was the whole point of it.
* * * *
The Reformation was an intensely conservative religious reaction against the spirit of reason that Aquinas had introduced into Christianity, a reaction that found its voice in the terrifying, transcendent God of the Old Testament, the God that had thundered at Moses ‘Draw not nigh hither’. Aquinas believed that all humans participated in God’s nature and that all possessed a certain God-given autonomy of will. The reformers insisted on the absolute sovereignty of God over His creation and saw the human race as a ‘teeming horde of infamies’, as Calvin put it, whose innate sinfulness degraded any autonomy except for the autonomy to be wicked.
And yet, despite the Reformation’s mordantly reactionary soul, its rebellion against the Catholic Church was also the source of a radically libertarian revolution, the harbinger of a liberal modernity. The paradox of the Reformation is that a movement that deprecated autonomy and will, insisted on the unlimited sovereignty of God and sought solace in unquestioning faith also helped create a world that came to celebrate individualism, foster agency, and take secularism to be the social norm.
Luther insisted on the ‘priesthood of all believers’. Religious authority was torn away from any external institution and rested solely in the individual believer, each interpreting the Bible according to his own private conscience, each fostering his own personal relationship to God. For all his dismissal of free will, Luther’s rebellion was an assertion of individual conscience against the monolithic authority of the institutional Church. The Reformation, as historian Richard Tarnas has observed, ‘marked the standing forth of the individual in two senses – alone outside the Church and alone directly before God.’
It was, of course, not just Luther who could hear the inner voice. The individual, and his conscience, was looming large throughout sixteenth and seventeenth century culture, fostered by the Renaissance celebration of the dignity of Man. The entanglement of the Reformation and the Renaissance limited the Augustinian bleakness of the Lutheran vision. Protestantism flourished in many forms, and many Protestants had a view of human nature less dark than Luther’s. At the same time, the social changes engendered by the Reformation eased the way for the more optimistic Renaissance vision.
The biggest social change came out of a second paradox at the heart the Reformation. A movement that sought to restore faith to the centre of life helped ironically to engineer the modern secular world. For Luther, nothing that humans did on Earth was relevant to what happened to them in the next world. Neither good works, nor moral acts nor yet penitence provided the key to salvation. Faith and grace was all that mattered. So what sort of laws should guide human conduct in this world? Since there was no point in designing rules of conduct to get humans into the next world, so such rules could simply reflect the needs of this. Hence the Reformation created the possibility of a secular space defined by laws that defended political rather than divine order.
It was an argument that clearly appealed to monarchs and princes, as well as self-confident cities such as Nuremburg and Zurich, chafing at the constraints imposed by Papal power. By the thirteenth century, the Church had achieved an unprecedented level of political authority in Western Europe. This power was institutionalised, and given theological justification, by Pope Innocent III in his decree Sicut universitatis conditor issued in 1198. ‘Just as the moon derives her light from the sun, and is inferior to the sun in terms of its size and quality’, the decree proclaimed, ‘so the power of the king derives from the authority of the pope.’ Few kings saw themselves as moons to the Pope’s sun, particularly so as the Church had long since ceased to be very sun-like. It was riddled with corruption, shot through with sleaze, and had become a machine for minting money and grasping power.
In 1492, Pope Alexander VI, a member of the Borgia family, managed to bribe his way to the Papacy, despite having several mistresses and at least seven known illegitimate children. It was only the most shocking instance of the immorality that defined the Church. Forty years earlier, Duke Amadeus VIII of Savoy had managed to get his son appointed as the bishop of Geneva. He was eight years old. If the higher clergy was lacking any sense of moral virtue, the lower clergy was often illiterate, uncouth and ignorant. Little wonder that huge resentments had built up against Papal power. The so-called ‘magisterial Protestantism’, the Protestant rebellion led by the elite, swept through much of northern and central Europe, from the Swiss cantons, and the German speaking lands of the Holy Roman Empire, to Bohemia, Poland and the Baltic states to the east and through the Netherlands to England and Scotland to the north.
As the new faith spread, it diversified and new forms of Protestantism emerged. On mainland Europe Lutheranism was joined by the Reformed Church, rooted partly in the ideas of the Zurich priest Huldrych Zwingli, and Calvinism, which grew out of John Calvin’s teaching in Geneva and soon became the dominant Protestant movement on the continent. There were smaller movements, too, such as the Huguenots in France and the followers of Jan Hus in Bohemia. In England, a highly distinctive form of Protestantism, Anglicanism, evolved that spoke to local political and social needs and that maintained many of the traditions and practices of the Catholic Church. England’s imperial expansion over the next few centuries would eventually make this highly local version of Protestantism one of the most influential.
Magisterial Protestantism wrenched power away from the Pope to carve out a space for secular rule. It did not, however, abandon the idea of God as the ultimate source of political authority. Rather, God was now called upon to authorise the rule not of his religious but of his secular representatives on earth. Monarchs claimed absolute sovereignty by virtue of the ‘divine right of kings’ to rule. It was righteous, Aquinas had suggested, to depose an unjust king. Not so, argued the new Protestant monarchs who insisted that they were not subject to the will of the people, or of any other Estate of the realm; only God could judge the king. Attempts to unseat the king or to restrict his powers ran contrary to the will of God and hence were sacrilegious. The doctrine of the divine right of kings had older roots in theology, but it was through the Reformation that it acquired new resonance. English kings, such as James I and most notoriously Charles I, invoked it to dismiss attempts by both nobles and commoners to gain more power. Catholic kings, too, such as Louis XIV of France, rested their authority upon the doctrine.
There was another paradox too. Luther had insisted that actions in this world had no bearing on one’s reception in the next; hence the possibility of creating a secular space. In practice, however, the spread of Luther’s message led not to the greater separation of church and state but to their greater fusion. As kings and princes cleaved to the Reformation as a means of gaining power, so the institutions of faith and the institutions by which they enforced their rule became barely distinguishable. In England, for instance, Anglicanism became the ‘Established’ church, and the sovereign the ‘defender of the faith’, but only of the faith as defined by Anglicanism. A similar process could seen in many of the new Protestant states. A movement that began by asserting the right of every individual to interpret the Bible as they wished soon realized that this would lead to religious and social anarchy. Each of the various strand of the new faith established its own institutions to enforce its particular doctrines and rituals and to eliminate heresy, often on the pain of death. And a movement that had begun by challenging the corruption of the Catholic Church through its acquisition of secular power, and had insisted on the distinction between divine law and worldly law, soon fused church and state as a means of defending the power of both, the church sheltering in the bosom of princely power, the state gaining legitimacy through the warrant of God.
Magisterial Protestantism was not the only form of Reformation challenge to the existing order. There were more revolutionary versions of the Protestant rebellion, too. Inspired by ideas of individual conscience and secularism, many sought to challenge the power not just of Popes but of monarchs too. Perhaps the most important of these were the Anabaptists, so called because a literal reading of the Bible led them to insist that no divine warrant existed for the practice of infant baptism and that all adults had to be re-baptised.
The differences with magisterial Protestantism were far greater than such seemingly trivial doctrinal distinctions. The Anabaptists saw the social order as corrupt as Luther had seen human nature. Most Christians viewed the conversion of the Roman emperor Constantine as a watershed in the history of the church; it was the moment Christianity had come in from the margins and had became a social force. The Anabaptists also saw Constantine’s conversion as a watershed but for very different reasons. It was the instant that Christianity had compromised its integrity through an accommodation with imperial power. To cleanse themselves of that compromise, Christians would have to disengage themselves from the social order. Anabaptists refused to swear oaths to a secular authority, opposed the death penalty, decried wars, and condemned private property as unchristian.
The Anabaptists built up a strong following in German-speaking lands and in the Low Countries, even taking control of the town of Munster in 1534. Similar movements flourished in other countries. In England, for instance, there were the Levellers and the Diggers. The Levellers were a political movement during the English Civil Wars that emphasized popular sovereignty, extended suffrage, equality before the law and religious tolerance. They held to a notion of ‘natural rights’ that they believed were expressed in God’s law and considered liberty to be the innate property of every individual. Their demands were expressed in a series of manifestos called An Agreement of the People, published between 1647 and 1649, that were at the heart of the famous Putney Debates.
The Diggers were a group of agrarian communists led by Gerrard Winstanley who took his cue from the Book of Acts: ‘All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.’ ‘In the beginning of time God made the earth’, Winstanley argued in his pamphlet The New Law of Righteousness. ‘Not one word was spoken at the beginning that one branch of mankind should rule over another, but selfish imaginations did set up one man to teach and rule over another.’
The emergence of such movements was deeply unsettling to the Protestant elite. Luther was as conservative in his politics as he was in his faith. He supported the ruthless suppression of the revolutionary movements. In 1524 the Peasants’ War broke out, a popular revolt in German speaking lands against oppressive taxes and land laws. Some 300,000 peasants took part, demanding the end to serfdom, the abolition of cattle tithes and death taxes, and the right to use ‘common fields, forests and waters’. The uprising was brutally put down by the ruling classes, some 100,000 peasants losing the lives in the slaughter.
The peasants had used the Bible to support their grievances, and in turn, to justify their rebellion. Poorer clergy, led by Thomas Muntzer, supported the peasants’ demands and encouraged their revolt. But the leaders of the magisterial Reformation, Luther and Calvin in particular, took up arms against the peasants. In 1525 Luther published his essay Against the Murdering Thieving Hordes of Peasants, berating the rebels for the use of violence but defending the right of princes to use force to suppress the revolt because the peasants had ‘become faithless, perjured, disobedient, rebellious, murderers, robbers, and blasphemers, whom even a heathen ruler has the right and authority to punish’. ‘Anyone who is killed fighting on the side of the rulers’, Luther insisted, ‘may be a true martyr in the eyes of God’.
In time, Protestant ideas of ‘justification by faith’, of individual conscience and the ‘priesthood of believers’, and of the separation of secular work and divine salvation, all helped feed the radical democratic spirit. But fusion of the reactionary soul and the revolutionary spirit that drove the Luther’s rebellion ensured that modern liberal democratic societies developed as much in spite of the Reformation as because of it.
No mention here of ‘Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen’ – _any_ discussion of Martin Luther that doesn’t discuss that is, as far as I am concerned, partial.
Of course it is partial. This is just a 3000-word extract from a chapter in a book that is exploring not Martin Luther’s life but the history of moral thought. Inevitably there will be many aspects of Luther’s life and beliefs that I am forced to ignore – including, in this case, his nasty and ferocious anti-semitism. This does not mean that Luther’s anti-semitism is not important – just not to the specific point I’m trying to make at this juncture in the book. Von den Juden und ihren Lügen does, incidentally, get a mention later in the book, in the discussion on German, and more widely European, anti-semitism.
It’s good you mentioned “agrarian communists” (with a small ‘c’) as harking back to Acts. That’s been the basic concept underlying many utopian communities. It’s a very hard pill to swallow, though. Communal sharing works on the spiritual level, but secular society has created legal barriers. The only loopholes are by creating various forms of Trust and incorporating them.
There is indeed a long history of religious (not just Christian) Utopianism that has played an important part in the development of more secular forms of Utopianism. As for property rights, there is nothing secular about them. They change as economic and social relations change. The needs of capitalism, not of secularism, define contemporary property rights.
Much of your story is one-sided. I take it you are not a Christian?
Christianity is a Greek religion. Much of what formed Christianity was a process of enculturation of Hellenism. My teacher was a liturgical expert fluent in some 12 languages and a reader of ancient manuscripts. Did his research at the Vatican Library; a priest of the Norbetine Order. His erudition and conclusions match Prof. Jerry Dell Ehrlich and his book, “Plato’s Gift to Christianity, The Gentile Preparation for and the Making of the Christian Faith”. Much of what is in Christianity, the immortality of the soul, the Trinity, the duality of Christ, are Greek teachings. The battle within the soul is a Greek teaching. Heaven and Hell is a Greek teaching. It was purposely that way.
The Protestant reformers did not have a clear history of Christianity. Yes, it was a revolt against Aquinas and the infusion of Greek philosophy but that Greek philosophy itself formed Christianity at its beginning.
Second, you need to consider the influence of Lorenzo Valla and his Disputation which had a huge influence on Luther. Furthermore, you need to consider the influence and teachings of the Kabbala upon many during this period. The Kabbalah taught the importance of Primitivism. How primitivism is the guide to Truth and right. Luther was taught by Christian Hebraists.
Protestantism was in a sense a Judaizing of the Faith. This “sola scriptura” thing is not a European mental construct but a Semitic one. I refer you to Newman, Louis I. (1925) Jewish Influence on Christian Reform Movements, Columbia University Press, New York. Questia Media America, Inc.. You can access the book online at Questia.
The Jews had a tremendous influence on these supposedly ‘reform’ movements. Christianity is not a ‘Jewish’ religion, but a European one. There are different thought patterns associated with this.
Last I point to my article “Christ, Reason (Logos) and Greek philosophy”
which might explain the ‘reason’ for reason in Christianity and its connection to the Natural Law and its necessity for Christianity.
Far from denying the rootedness of Christianity in either Judaism or Greek philosophy, that rootedness is at the heart of my argument. See, for instance, the previous book extract on Augustine, or my post on ‘Rethinking the idea of “Christian Europe”’, a version of which, by the way, has just been published in the latest issue of New Humanist, and which I will post in Pandaemonium soon. It was not Plato upon whom the early Christian theologians drew, but Plato as filtered through the Neoplatonism of Plotinus, as I point out in my extract on Augustine:
What the early Christian Fathers sought in Plato was a sense of the transcendent. What they rejected was too great a reliance on reason; hence their hostility to Plato’s, and indeed Plotinus’, insistence that this transcendental reality could be grasped by reason, rather than by faith. And that was also why they rejected Aristotle. Not till Thomas Aquinas was Aristotle reintegrated into Christian thought, and reason seen as a route to the divine. It is primarily through Aquinas, too, that Christian notions of ‘natural law’ were developed.
The issue is not about whether Christianity drew upon Greek philosophy or whether it accepted the importance of reason. Clearly it did both. The issue, rather, is the debate that has existed within Christianity almost since its inception about the relationship between reason and faith, determinism and free will, Law and Grace. The first centuries of Christianity saw a decisive victory for those who wished to restrain reason with faith, and possessed a desolate, guilt-ridden view of human nature, a victory expressed in Augustine’s triumph over Pelagius. Aquinas helped shift the balance back. Luther rejected Aquinas’ understanding and restored an Augustinian view of reason and human nature.
As for the influence of Judaism. Luther, as you must know was viciously anti-Semitic. Jews, he wrote in On the Jews and their Lies (mentioned by Sean Matthews earlier in this thread), are ‘a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.’ He called for synagogues to be burnt down, prayer books to be destroyed, property to be confiscated and rabbis exiled.
I notice, incidentally, that you link to one of your articles on Henry Makow’s site. Makow, for those who don’t know, is a nasty, bizarre conspiracy monger who thinks that ‘The world is in the malignant grip of a satanic cult’ organized by the Illuminati, Jews, bankers and God knows who else, the aim of which is ‘to destroy Western Civilization and to erect a new world order ruled by them.’ Is this your view too? Even if it’s not, it’s hardly a recommendation for your argument that you should choose to publish your essay on such a site.
It seems to me the Reformation is one of those movements with unexpected consequences. Luther’s anti-rationalism led somehow to modernity. It should be worth mentioning that, as far as ethics go, the Reformation also unexpectedly contributed to a work ethic. That, as Max Weber famously claimed, is a central tenet of modernity. The Calvinist-Lutheran idea of predestination is, apparently, fatalistic. But, ironically, instead of making people pursue unrestrained pleasure (if I am going to be fried anyway, why not drink and eat now?), led people to work harder and accumulate wealth, as they looked for evidence that they were among the saved. |
It is after midnight and I lay her in yet another new bed in another new place. Strangers-turned-friends have opened their home up to us, the wanderers, during this quick trip throughout the United States.It is after midnight and I lay her in yet another new bed in another new place. Strangers-turned-friends have opened their home up to us, the wanderers, during this quick trip throughout the United States.
As I lay her head on what seems the twentieth different pillow in three weeks it occurs to me that once again she will wake up in a place that is not where she fell asleep. And as soon as I realize this I realize something else: she will wake up happy as long as I do not get out of bed first. I know this to be true after over 2 years of mothering this precious soul. If she can wake up and see my face their next to hers on the pillow, she will not mind the new place.
I am overwhelmed at that kind of trust.
I want that kind of trust.
The last three weeks have been a whirlwind that my publishing team calls “promoting the book.” For me it has been a sanctifying and stretching time of testifying over and over and over again His faithfulness in our lives. A time of noticing the little surprises that He puts in front of me every single day.
I am the Israelites, forgetting so quickly. Just so not wanting to be in this foreign place away from my children, not wanting to be looked at or praised or criticized, I am tempted to grumble, even to worry, even to forget. But I can’t because in front of thousands, it is my turn to testify. And in testifying, I remember. I remember the miracles and I remember all the long way that He has carried us. And as I remember, He continues to surprise and carry still. I share our story. And each time, with each word, I know it a little deeper: God IS who He says He is.
Trustworthy.
And slowly but surely I am learning to trust my Father in the way that my three year old trusts me. Learning to just allow Him to carry me, take me where He wants me and know that I will still wake up in His arms, and in His arms it is safe. Even when I wake up in unfamiliar territory.
In an effort to really sink in deep into His safe and loving arms, I am unplugging. The last three weeks have been a time of being “on”, sharing our story with many and praying and believing that they will be encouraged and God will receive all the glory. And so now it is time to be quiet. Time to listen instead of speaking. Time to trust fully in Him instead of worrying about silly comments on silly articles. Time to turn “off” – both my mind and my computer.
I will be back in Uganda with my girls on Wednesday and we will spend this month enjoying each other, enjoying our Father, and trusting Him to do whatever He wishes with this book and this testimony. He has done big things and we have wonderful stories and I cannot wait to share them with you in November.
He is behind and before. We trust Him. To Him be the glory.
119 comments:
Enjoy your reunion with your family! I just received your book in the mail today and am already captivated by your account of how the Lord has worked in and through your life in Uganda. Thank you for helping to open our eyes to the needs of souls all around us.
We were reading your book and praying for you when you posted this. Wish we could have met while you were in the States but know you are anxious to get back home to your girls. We are in the process of adopting two little girls but wow...you sure have us praying about adoption from Uganda down the road. We are reading your book to our kids during our family devotion time each evening after dinner. What a testimony you are. Blessings and grace to you and your girls!
The Pruiksma Family
Fayetteville, GA
Thank you...may God continue to bless, encourage, and love you so you can continue to share it with others..He is using you in ways you will never see or now while on earth..you have given me motivation when I get tired and exhausted from my travels..thank you for allowing Him to use you..praying for you always and hope to get back soon..my heart is still at the karamajong village. Through His love..xoxo
Thank you, Katie. It's so amazing how our God works. He has been teaching me to trust Him through this trial... and I'm having a hard time with that. To read your post was so encouraging!
Just so you know, you are making a huge impact... God used you to call a comfortable girl in the States to step out in faith and surrender her life. This girl received her calling to be a medical missionary through your story. This girl loves you though she's never met you and prays for you, your girls, and your ministry. I would love to meet you, just to say thank you, someday... Until then, we will both trust our Savior, who is so much bigger than our circumstances! Even if we don't understand where we are in this season, waking up in the arms of Jesus is enough.
this is beautiful...my mom sent me your book in the mail last week. All the way to Dartmouth where I go to college. I used to be great friends with Connor Broadbent so I have hung out with Brad a couple of times. You have to know that you are a total inspiration to me, and I pray for you and your children often.
Katie,
We miss you and can't wait to have you back in Uganda. You are missed at church and I know your precious girls have missed you lots. I hope you are able to bring back some copies of your book with you. I would love to purchase a copy:) See you soon. Praying for safe travels and for health.
Blessings,
Dana Bogan
Katie, thank you for coming...I watched your inspiring story online and have since read some of your blogs and been very encouraged in my faith..how can I say thank you? I appreciate all you say. thank you for sharing your Hope.
i appreciate knowing you are real and you love Jesus. Thank you.
Good Morning ~
I just recently came to know about your organization and I wish so much to have known about it last December when I took my daughter, age 11 and our foster daughter, age 17 to Uganda. We spent time in a village in Kyenjojo. At an orphanage on Bussi Island. In Kadama, and two orphanages in Kampala. We spent a couple hours in Jinja but didn't know anyone there.
I wanted them to be introduced to children their own age in another part of the world. I challenged them to continue to serve Christ by seeking ways to help others who have no resources to fall back on. The youngest wants to return as a doctor so she can help in orphanages and the oldest is planning on getting into nursing school soon and wants to do many more missions trips.
As I pray for our orphans there I will now be including you and your family. I understand how hard life is there and I admire you greatly! The Ugandans were a very loving people and we will never forget them. When we make it back again I will try to look you up. God Bless You!
As my little boy loves to say, "Group Hug!!!"
Katie, I've had your book on pre-order for months and last week it arrived on my doorstep here in the UK. I read it in a day or so (no mean feat for a mom of three small kids!) and I just wanted you to know it is changing my life, daily. I'm looking at my situation with completely new eyes and feeling called to offer all my resources to Him in a way I've never done before. Let's hope your wonderful obedience infects everyone who reads the book. May He continue to hold you all in the palm of His hand.
God bless you and your family, Katie. Thank you for loving Him like you do and testifying for Him like you do!
Katie, you are amazing because God is amazing! Thanks for knowing and sharing who God really is! You are a testimony of true faith to everyone who meets or hears your story. I read your book and am sharing it at work. I enjoyed meeting you at Catalyst and will pray for your journey back home.
Katie - you are wonderful...God is wonderful In and Thru you! So enjoyed hearing you at Lipscomb last week. May God be praised and glorified thru everyone that reads your book, and may lives be changed. On earth as it is in heaven. Love you and your godly, wonderful parents, Karen Barnes Snyder
Hello Katie,
I read your book in a day and as soon as I was finished, gave it to another new-Christian friend of mine. To God be ALL the glory, honor and praise. I am praying for you, your children, your family and friends and Amazima daily. I pray God's Blessings and Abundance and Safety upon your life. May you always remember, as you have stated in this blog, He is that was, that is, and is to come. I love you deeply, from one member of the body of Christ to another. Know that 23 yr. old Diane, from Connecticut will always be uplifting you in prayer. May God direct you and may you be in the center of His will in all things. This, I am learning too-to trust, obey and stand in awe of His might work.
In love and in Him,
Diane
I'm praying for you, Katie. The limelight can be such a difficult place to be. Asking God to give you strength as you climb out of your comfort zone to bring him glory.
Safe travels to you all, Katie. It was SO wonderful to get to see your sweet face and hear your sweet stories of our Father's love! (We were so blessed to be at Brook Hills Sun. night)
My kiddos especially were affected by your testimonies...how incredible for them to hear firsthand from "Katie in Uganda"....the one they pray for everyday! May His seed take root in many hearts and His Kingdom grow for His glory!!!!
We won't stop praying...
Katie, I pray that God will give you a time of rest and replenishing. I know that you have missed the girls and that they have missed you. Thank you for walking with God and sharing His love.... I have your book and am enjoying getting to know your family and your mission a little better!
Rest. Rest in Him, Katie. Enjoy your daughters.
We'll be here ready to hear you when you come back.
Hugs and Prayers
AmberK
So thankful He IS who He says He IS.
love, love, love your heart, Katie. There is a quiet respect for you growing. Don't be afraid to sit and be silent so you can listen - you know that silent has the same letters as listen!!
Thank you for allowing God you use you. We have recently moved to Mobile, AL to be youth pastors here I bought your book last week, and there are already two girls who have each purchased one... God is moving quickly and is definitely capturing the hearts of those who read your book. (One of those girls has a heart for adoption; I'm loving her spirit) Thank you again, and we're praying for safe travels as you return home to your girls. -Allyson
Amen.
to Him be the glory
Looking forward to the time you can share all that God is doing and has done during the past few weeks! But in the meantime, praying for rest and rejuvenation and a sweet sweet reunion with your girls!
Just found your blog through another blogger who heard you at Brookhills in AL. So glad to find and follow your blog and the journey you are on. I just ordered your book and am very anxious to read it. God bless you and your precious family!
To Him be the glory. Always.
Love your book, Katie. Love your heart. Thankful Jesus continues to mold it into His image, as He does mine.
So glad you will be with all your girls soon! Prayers for safe travels.
Thank You... being still hard... waiting is hard.... but I am learning to take comfort in knowing that God is the one I am waiting on, and what He gives is exactly what I need
-Frazier
I found your post today . . . visiting from sixinthesticks. . .here is fresh air. . .real life. . .unfettered. . .will be back. . .you are in my prayers, dear one.
You did a beautiful job sharing your testimony, your life, and the book. The public can be difficult...even amongst believers. You were faithful, exactly what God intended. The rest is up to Him...He will water and bring the increase. Rest in His peace.
I "found" you a few weeks ago and I have never had a human inspire me as you. My connection to Him has strengthened from reading your journey. I finally feel a purpose inside myself as well as my mothering role swelling to great depths. The last few days my soul has been quenching for personal guidance and I find your blog entry today so very necessary. I thank you for this. For reminding me that sometimes the road is scary, untouched, but ultimately we are able to trust in Him completely. Thank you dear. From a fellow mother.
beautiful, katie. Thank you for this. Praying for a safe flight and a happy reunion. xoxo
Amen, Katie! Soak deep into the Father's love and have a lovely reunion with your girls. Hang on to who Christ says you are and let all naysayer comments fall on deaf ears. You could not be more in the center of the Father's will.I shall be praying for truth to reign in your families minds. Blessings,Kim
Praying for what God has in store!
Sorry to have missed you in the US Katie, safe journey back! God bless you and your fellow workers, the reward is in Heaven, definitely not here :)
Katie, I know you are turning off and that I understand. I just want to let you know someone in Shelbyville, TN is praying for you, lifting up your hands when you are week, standing for you when you can't, and rejoicing with you when you rejoice. I'm a 37 year old mother of 2 and one on the way from Korea. But even at my age you have taught me to SEE with spiritual eyes daily and not to take one moment for granted. Thank you Katie!
Wishing you the best! Your testimony is an inspiration to all beleivers! It was a combination of your blog and the book by Francis Chan, Crazy Love, that got us started on the adoption journey:) Love your faith! Keep on doing what you're doing and don't listen to tne nay sayers. May God bless all your ministries.
J
Katie, I am continually encouraged by your life and your testimony. I will pray for a joyous return home for you and that God be glorified in all of your efforts to share His love. I know He is... I heard you speak, and it was wonderful. Your humble demeanor in such a spotlight is beautiful. Praying for you and your children.
Katie, I hope that your book is able to bring many blessings for your ministry.
Katie, I have followed your blog for almost 2 years and I check it at least once a week, hungry for an update about your life and beautiful family.
I am so thrilled that you have written a book and can't wait to read it. Your faith is unshakable at times and as a mother of three and a woman twice your age, I pray for that faith daily.
God is using you as an inspiration to all of us and maybe even a kick in the pants to those who lose sight of how blessed we are in our lives.
Thanks for all you do and hugs to all your children.
Blessings to you and your family as you travel back to your home! I am almost finished with your book and it is incredible! Thank you so much for obeying God and following Him to the dark places and bringing His light to everyone you touch! I am beyond inspired by your life and I hope God has something similar for me in the near future.
Love and blessings to you!
Sharon
I ordered your book this week and it is currently on its way to my house.
I hope your trip to the US has been a good one, and that you have been able to enjoy it.
Thank you for sharing your story.
You have a gift, the gift of pure love, given without reservation. The gift that is returned to you by your children. As I look into the tiny black and white faces I hold and kiss, I too see exceptance and love from complete strangers. God is good and He showed that same love to us sinners through His Son. Bless you sweet child!!
I just want to say thank you for saying Yes to the Father, for your story has helped in the process of renewing my faith, but more than that, to focus on looking through the eyes of those in need. I have proudly donated to sponsor a child in your educational program at Amazima, and look forward to hearing about the wonderful opportunities this will open up for him or her.
Take care and God Bless,
Greg Pyne
Orlando, FL
Katie, I came to Catalyst to hear you speak because your story is so precious and inspiring and God-breathed. I could say so much, but let me sum it up by saying, Thanks for being a vessel that God uses to spread His redemptive story. You are a blessing!
God bless you, Katie... and He has! You have done the things that many of us wish we could do but have not...either because of inability or fear. Though financially I am unable to help, you and your children will always be in my prayers! Thank you for putting faith into action!
I have been following your blog for about a year, my friend Amy Block told me about you. She adores your heart. I bought the book last week and have began sitting with my 10 year old son and 7 year old daughter reading it to them nightly. They are in awe of you..they are in awe of Jesus. My daughter says she will move to Uganda as well and serve with you. I told her she should do what the Lord places on her heart :) Thank you o much for all you do to inspire me and others to step out in faith and live uncomfortably.
~Brandy Windham
Amen. Rest and enjoy your family. Well done good and faithful servant.
Dear Katie,
My name is Kaylee Smith and I'm a ten year old girl who wants to be a missionary in Rwanda. I finished your book today and loved it. You describe God's word so good and understandable and easier to grasp for a 10 year old like me. When I visited Rwanda I saw the need and need to help. You are inspiring me as I see what you blog about. Keep it up!
God Loves You more than you can imagine,
Kaylee
To say that Katie is an inspiration to our world, is a enormous understatement. God be with her and protect her. She is truly a testament that God lives.
Katie, I saw you @ Brookhills and really enjoyed hearing how the Holy Spirit is moving through you. We have served in Uganda and LOVE it there and may retire there one day. We are also adopting from Ghana. Thank you again for listening and having curage to continue to step out of the boat. Our blog is if you have time to read it.
Enjoy that unplug time. Your sacrifice is yielding fruit. God IS using your testimony to draw others closer to Him and urging them on, myself included, to live more radically for Him and for His least of these.
My husband and I are moving our family to Africa to live and love. Your story is helping me prepare for some of the issues we will face and helping to remind me that just as God can give courage to an inexperienced 18 year old, He can give courage to each of us, even a middle-aged mama.
Praying for you all!
Elysa Mac
I have followed your blog for some time and my husband brought home your book from Catalyst. It is wonderful and awesome to hear your story and your heart. Thank you for your obedience to Jesus. Thank you for sharing your testimony, for saying it and writing it over and over, even though it's exhausting... I believe He is and has and will continue to receive the glory. Blessings to you as you return to your family.
You are such a example to me, Gods story in your life and the life of your girls is truly amazing, cant wait to get the book!
God Bless you,Katie.
I just heard your testimony through the Dave Ramsey Podcast.I'm absolutely blown away by what I just heard. What you've accomplished by God's grace and His power working in your life is absolutely incredible.Wow ! Just amazing !
You asked for prayers first,well that is the least I could do.And I'm certain God will enable me to support your calling throughout my life as I'm able.
IHS.
Ontario,Canada.
Heard you on Dave Ramsey today! I spoke with my 18 yr old daughter about you. I am hoping she will read your book. Prayers with you, thank you for your testimony!
Michael - Newark, Ohio
Katie,
I am in awe of your story and what God has done through you. I almost can't contain what He has accomplished through one willing person. I have felt for a long time that God wants me to do a missions trip, especially to help children and women in need. I want to be used by Him and you are my most inspiring example of what He can do! I bought your book and read it in a couple of days...it speaks to me of sacrifice, of giving up our rights to a loving and faithful God, of trusting Him in the direst of places. I have longed for a pure and unselfish approach to Christianity because so much of what we hear and read concerning the Chritian walk is about what we can get from God as opposed to how can we bless Him for what He has ALREADY done for us!! Thank you for this. Thank you for your example and your faithfulness.
How I would love to come and help and volunteer at Amazima! I pray for God's blessing on your continued work and thank you for sharing your story in this most compelling book.
A sister in Christ,
Tani
Katie, you have have been such an encouragement to me. I just recently started following your blog a couple of months ago. I have already found so much truth in your actions and your words. Thank you for be obedient. I pray for the clarity, boldness, and obedience that you have been given.
Thanks so much for sharing this, Katie! Our Jesus is so trustworthy and it never ceases to amaze me how he chooses to remind of us that. Sometimes He uses the smallest of His precious children to show us the greatest of truths.
Right now I'm learning a lot about just allowing Him to carry me, to take me where He wants me and simply knowing that when I wake up each day He's still there to carry me and give me strength for whatever plans He holds for me for each day.
God has put a huge burden on my heart for children, and especially the children of this world. My heart is overseas with my precious children in Peru, but for right now God's placed me in an awesome school, Moody Bible Institute, to prepare me for whatever He has for me in the future. Your transparency and boldness has been such a huge encouragement to me. Thanks for sharing your heart, and your story. May our Jesus bless you in this time of unplugging. I'll be praying for you and your beautiful girls.
Thank you, Katie. Thank you, Lord.
Praying for you and your family as you unplug. Be still and wait upon the Lord. Keep your heart and mind focused on Him alone. Also, enjoy your girls. Love and be loved. Thank you for being vulnerable to so many during your book trip . . . you did indeed humbly testify to the Lord's love, power, and goodness. Thank you for being an obedient vessel through which the Lord can work . . . and, yes, may our Father receive all the glory. And may more of us hearing and reading your story not just continue in our daily lives merely stirred and not changed. May we be faithful to hear and follow the Lord where He has us or wants to take us, being obedient to love the next person He brings into our path. The Lord is calling His children to truly live out His love (through your story as well as Renee Bach's work in Uganda, David Platt's Radical book, Francis Chan's Crazy Love book, and countless others). The Lord is using all of these examples to raise up and encourage believers who will abandon themselves to follow Him and not the culture. Exciting! The Lord is so good! What a day it will be when we all get to Heaven . . . and may we each take as many as possible with us. Amen! :)
I am so sorry I missed you when you were in the Seattle Area:(
God Bless you and your children!
Good for you Katie for knowing when it's time to unplug and then doing so!
Katie, I totally agree with you. I have been a missionary in Haiti for 9 years and God has been so faithful and so amazing. It is embarrassing to receive the compliments and the words like "hero" and "angel" and "sacrificial" even though I know they are said with good intentions. The truth is we are the blessed ones that live among heroes, angels, and people who truly know sacrifice! Enjoy your sweet girls back home!
Beautiful, Katie. God and your English instructors from high school built within you a way with words that touches souls and leaves us knowing He is here and He has a plan. Keep running the race, Dear One. We cheer you on!
FOUND YOUR BLOG A FEW DAYS AGO.
WISH YOU WERE MY MOMMY.
KIND REGARDS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.
MARK 9:36-37:KJV.
I just finished reading your book. Thank you for taking the time to tell your story. It will inspire many to do more. I will definitely recommend it to others.
May the Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious unto you; may the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26
Thank you. Have a wonderful time with your family over the next month. :)
Hello Katie,
Can't find the words to express how touched I’ve been and continue to be in reading your writing, your blog. Oh Goodness (and it is), you feel like a kindred spiritual friend. .. .. while I don't think my body wants to make a trip to Uganda, I must tell you that a few days ago I fantasized coming to your many children and taking fun photos, painting, singing and writing with them (them with me). I wear these hats in my life daily.
What I'm sharing is that I can empathize with these precious children and feel connected with them already. Words never quite do it, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate that you're here now doing what you doing and letting others know so they can 'see' you and support you.
Most Warmly a big hug God Bless us All,
Paul, Arizona
(aka. Paul Michael, a non-denominational wedding minister for the last 18 years).
Your blog and book have encouraged me with missions and writing. You have made it clear that God has done all these amazing things, and you are just a willing servant. Your attitude is inspiring. Thank you for letting God use you. Thank you for being so vulnerable with strangers. Thank you for sharing your fears and hard lessons learned so that we can see God glorified through all of it.
I love your heart, I see God in it. I am praying for you and you encourage me! This is what it is to live a christ centered life!
Praying for safe travels so that your precious family can once again reunite. I have already finished reading your book and loved every minute of it.What an amazing voice for Jesus you are. God's grace and love just pours out of you.
I heard you speak at Brook Hills. You are SUCH an inspiration and have given me a want to serve God overseas. Thank you for being one of few that follow wherever He leads you.
Received this book yesterday in the mail from a dear, dear friend. Intentions of reading a chapter this morning soon turned into putting all other plans aside as each turned page beckoned me to the next. Hours later as I finished the last chapter I am praising God for your sharing His story thru your life. I Cor. 13:13 as paraphrased in the Message "...we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly..." Press on Katie Davis, beautiful daughters, family and friends of Uganda.
Hi Katie, it is good to hear from you again. Knowing that you are well. Can't wait to read more. Take care of yourself and your girls and enjoy them today. Hugs and prayers
MaryBeth
I just finished reading your book. I purchased it on Friday night. I finished it by Monday. I could not put it down. Your book has really ministered to me. My daughter is part African with family from Sierra Leon. I have always felt a tug to do something in Africa. I am hoping that I will have the opportunity one day. I am now going to read excerpts from your book every day just to encourage me. When I am in my darkest hour, I will remember the encouraging words that were in your book. I have never read anything like this before. Thank you so much! -Mary
Katie,
I finished your book yesterday
( and there is a story about how it even came about that I "bumped" into your book as I had never heard of you before). I paused more times than I can count to dry my eyes. I read half the book in one sitting and finally had to walk away as I felt like I had consumed an over the top Thanksgiving meal. I truly needed time to digest what I had read.
May God continue to be with you and guide your footsteps. We are weak but He is strong...
As a side note, is there a way to send you a private message?
April Fortenberry
Hi Katie,
My name is Brianna. I have read your book and all of your blog posts from where your book left off. I have been inspired to do things very similar to things as you are since I was about three. I hope to go to Africa soon because that is what I have felt God calling me to do. I graduate high school this coming June and I can not wait to see what He has in store for me at that point. I thank you so much for telling your story. I love your girls just through reading about them and I wish all of you the best! I have been and will continue to pray for you, and maybe at some point in our lifes, our paths could cross. Thank you again!
I stumbled on you story by accident last week, thinking it was going to be about something else. I was sitting in my driveway, reading your story on my phone, and I found myself in tears. I am nearly 20 years your senior, and I am in awe of the meanIng you have already found in your life. I subscribed to your blog right away because I found your words so inspiring. Your children are so blessed to have found an angel to be their mother, and you are equally blessed, I'm sure, to have these little lights in your life. God bless you in everything you are doing, please don't let anyone detract from your work with foolish comments, and please allow Him to continue to shine through your writing.
I found your blog via Ginny's Yarn Along...I admire your faith in God and hope to read your book soon!
Katie,
I agree that it is amazing... the level of trust that children have in their parents! What a wonderful connection you make to our need to trust our Heavenly father despite the circumstances! My family and I will continue to lift you, your family, and Amazima up in prayer. My 5th grade class knows more about Uganda because of the impact your book has had on me.
God bless you,
Angie
We heard some of your story at Brookhills and bought the book so we can hear the rest...Thank you for traveling, sharing and giving to so many on your journey. We are love you and are praying for you Amazima, you and your girls. Have fun celebrating at home with them!!
Praying for safe travel home...thank you for sharing your incredible and inspiring journey of faith with us...
Katie,
Stinks that we missed you while you were here!
Unplugging is so necessary and so hard. I'm proud of you my sweet friend.
((Loves))
Hi Katie,
Thank you for trusting the Father in such a pure and beautiful way and being an example to me. My husband just leaned over and asked me what I was reading and why I was crying and I tried to explain who you are and how you follow Jesus so blindly and that it makes me cry everytime I read your words. Thank you for sometimes being the only Bible that I read. Love and light, April Cunningham
Katie, my eyes overflow with tears each time I read your blog...and I have been completely 'undone' as I read through your book. You have been added to my daily prayer list. I pray, also, that I will stop 'praying' that God will send 'someone' to feed, love, comfort, clothe and give shelter to those 'I' see in need - that I will stop to help one, then one more, then one more. I love to read God's Word. I heard His voice on the pages of your book. God is GOOD, and everything He gives us is for good whether we 'get it' or not. You are precious.
May God continue to richly bless you with His favor,
Tina Marie
Thank you, Katie. Your post just gave me strength. God spoke to me through it. I understand what you say when you say you don't want to be "looked at, praised, criticized"... I am struggling so much with that right now. My testimony is not my own. It is His. I know my journey with Him is just beginning, and I am almost fearful of where He will take me, even though I know He will never put me somewhere I can't handle. With Him I can handle anything. Thank you for what you are doing and for allowing Him to use your life. He has used your life and your love to give me strength to follow where He is taking me.
Your heart is beautiful.
To Him be the glory.
Agape <><
Rejoicing with you in that you should be home now. Praying for you. Encouraged by you.
We wanted to meet you on your tour so badly, but we are in the middle of following God's leading for our family in a cross country move. We pray for you every day and you have inspired my 17 year old daughter to sign up for her first overseas mission trip. Your heart of love, grace, and trust is (every word I can think of is too small) - but, you inspire me. Many blessings to you and your precious girls.
Your blog ROCKED me! God bless you and keep you! I am encouraged!
Katie,
It's strange that this may be the first time I'm writing to you since I feel like I know you a little from reading your writing this past year. And perhaps because you are my sister in Christ and I have been praying for you and your precious girls since I first found you. So much of what you write resonates with me. It has blessed me again and again. The first time a friend showed me your blog I stayed up until 4 am reading and crying. The truth is Katie, my heroes growing up were missionaries. I thought someday I WOULD be doing something like what you're doing. The thing I struggle with now is that I married at 21 and have four children from 7 down to 6 months. My family is the richest blessing from God but I still feel this longing to obey Gods call on my life more literally. I am "uncomfortable" in my own comfort and have felt that disconnect for a long time. I long for the opportunity to serve God on the mission field but realize that my decisions at this point are not just my own. I have a husband and four littles that are much of my ministry. I guess I just wanted to write to thank you for telling your story which always points to Jesus our First Love. I hope and pray that someday I will be able to come to Uganda, meet you and perhaps join in your effort to love the least of these. With much gratitude,
Linda
Praise God for your sweet, transparent soul. I am going to take this unplugging rest with you...Father restore us all and bring us closer to Him each day!
oops, something else I forgot to mention to you when I wrote to you last night. I started reading your book last night and my seven year old little boy wanted me to read it to him. We both didn't want to put it down. After we read he said, "mommy, I feel a stirring in my heart like this is what I always wanted to do." I totally understand how he feels. Now to understand how to live this more fully. Much love to you and your family.
Katie,
You have such a heart for Jesus, and people. God bless you and your beautiful family :)
My husband heard you at Catalyst in Atlanta, Katie. He brought home your contagious spirit and your story...I cannot put it down. You are now a part of our journey, whatever God has planned for that to be from here. Thank you for your obedience to Him. As our first daughter prepares to graduate from high school this spring, your life is the example before us...a faithful surrender to His beautiful plan.
I love your new post. I'm so excited to read your book. I was thrilled to chat with you briefly on Hugh's show in Riverside, CA. I just wish I'd had more time with you because you are such a treasure from heaven. I truly believe your crown will be so abundantly full. And you make me want to be more like Jesus... so just know that you are reaching out and all around the world, just by being you... just by loving Jesus every day. Hugs--dianne :)
Amen. Learning to trust too, as God leads me to uncharted territory. Uncomfortable. Unfamiliar.
Faith like a child. Thanks for sharing - this post, and your life.
Blessings as you recharge with your family.
Katie,
I have been blessed by your book. I have adopted an african daughter from within the US. I plan to spread the news of your organization and all you are doing, so hopefully this will allow you to care for more people/ children.
May God bless you and your family! Thank you for going where God called you to go.
I am humbled.
Gayle
Katie, Thank you again for inspiring our family to get outside of ourselves and live for God..."every breath" for Jesus. As we sit and wait for our two beautiful Ethiopian babies to come home, we pray for you and Amazima. I am hosting a giveaway of "Kisses from Katie" this week on my blog.
Katie
I feel the Lord is speaking to me through your book. I think He is leading me to sell / quit everything and move to Ethiopia. If, indeed, it is His agenda, He will have to change the heart of my wife. She is not feeling it yet. We have 5 kids (one we adopted from Ethiopia two years ago). I just returned home to Memphis a month ago and my heart is still there with the cildren and people. I praise God for your capacity to Love and feel He is giving me a greater capacity as well. He is totally amazing and I thank you for being willing to share it with random people like me. Shalom. Blessings to you and those precious ones.
You are truly amazing and a blessing! May God continue to bless your journey
I have been a silent blog reader and when I saw you had a book out I was so excited. Your writing in the blogs has always touched my heart and now the thought of a book! I ordered the book and picked it up yesterday. I finished it today. Written so beautiful just like you. God has gifted you writing that reaches and touches the heart. I thank the Lord for you and we will continue to keep your family in our prayers. Our family will be helping a child!The book will now go to my husband to read, I hope it touches his heart like it did mine. Your are beautiful in His eyes!
Stacey
Colorado
God bless you! I will keep you in my prayers.
I can't wait to hear more from you!
I haven't read this post until today, but I needed to to read it today...not any other day...to be reminded that telling our story over and over again reminds me of His goodness.
Just finished reading your book. Wow! It has challenged me, encouraged me, and created a great longing in me to do more. I am a 60 year old mother of 7 adopted children. Three are still at home (15, 14, and 11). When I turned 50 I prayed for a baby, at 51 we got our 3 month old baby daughter and her 4 siblings. After 4 years of court, on May 24, 2006, we finally adopted 4 of the children, and on May 26, 2006, just two days later, our precious baby, Ashley, now 4 died of cancer. My faith was nearly destoyed, but through it may faith grew. Your book was so what I needed to move forward to do some things in Ashley's honor. I am praying for your ministry and believe God is going to grow to grow it beyond anything you can imagine. Blessings. Evelyn Scheiman
Katie, your book has touched my soul. I devoured it! Though a believer all my life, over the past few months I am finally beginning to understand 'I surrender all', and what it means to live in Him and through Him. So many stories I have loved over the years of Christian heroes, like you, left me wondering... What's wrong with me? What did they have that I don't? I want my life to be used by God like that, but how? Your personal testimony of God's provision and guidance as you trust in Him and daily surrender to His Spirit tells the untold secret!!! It's ALL God, not us! He changes our hearts and our desires to become like His! Thank you, not just for the blazing sacrifice/joyful blessing of your life, but also for telling your story in your words. I needed to hear it straight from the heroes mouth. :)
Praying for you and your family! Yes, to Him be all the glory. Eph 3:20-21
Katie
I heard you on the Dave Ramsey show a few days ago and that same day a friend of mine told me she had ordered me your book.I had only read a few pages when I read,
"The children would run to me with gifts of stones or dirt and I saw myself filthy and broken, offering my life to the God of the universe and begging Him to make it into something beautiful."
Those words broke in to my heart at that moment and I began to sob.I wasn't crying softly ! I was laid across my bed sobbing with my heart breaking because of God's wonderous love for me.
I now have a passion I have not felt in years to reach out and help others. I want to show Christ' love and I will start by supporting your ministry.
Thank you for being obedient. Thank you for showing others that that's all He is asking us to do.
I'll be praying for you and all the precious ones in Uganda.
Katie, today is October 29- I was reading the end of your book and read that a year ago today, you were forced to give up your precious Jane to her mother. My heart ached for you. I will pray for you today as I know how anniversaries are hard days. We had custody of my niece for 4 months as her mother was dealing with her personal issues. DSS decided to give her back and it was so hard. I knew she would have better care and a Christian environment with us. However, 18 months later I can see God is working in the mother's life and and although it was extremely painful, my prayer is that one day we will see a miracle in that situation. I pray that for you too...God loves Jane, her mother, and you .You are a special person with incredible faith- a gift. God bless you!
Thank you for sharing your time with those in the USA, Katie! As a mother I know how hard it is to leave your babies behind and travel without them. My husband heard you speak at Catalyst in Atlanta and was so inspired by your story. He bought your book, he read it, and has passed it on for me to read! I'm in the middle of your story and I am so humbled by your faith and obedience to Jesus. May your story move many more people to take steps of obedience wherever their mission fields may be. Thank you.
I just received your book for my birthday on 10/21 and read it in three days!! Today is the 29th, and I was reading about how 10/29/10 was so terrible for you and the girls. My prayers are with you this day, one year later exactly, my sister in the Lord. I prayer that the Lord of all comfort will surround and uphold you this day and that you are once again reminded of the faithfulness of our sweet Jesus! Sandy
you leak jesus
you leak jesus
A friend preordered your book for me since we both are adoptive moms. Your story has touched me deeply and I thank you sharing it and mostly for being an example of being faithful to God's call. I run a non profit organization and would love to have our students be part of projects to bless others through your organization. Prayers for you and your precious girls!
Katie,
I just finished reading your book. God was glorified! We are starting the adoption process in Uganda. Lord willing maybe we can meet when He deems the right time for us to come to Uganda. Thank you for what you do.
To Him be the glory,
Chelsey
Katie, just finished reading your incredibly inspiring book. I've followed your blog for quite some time and couldn't wait to read your book. The wisdom and spiritual maturity from your young heart is incredible. Thank you for sharing your testimony, His story in your life. Maybe He continue to bless and guide.
Jocelyn in Missouri
I am on the 12th chapter of your book and wow, God is using you in Mighty ways for His Kingdom's sake and in my life. I am so thankful for what you do and that you put it out there for others to read, hear, and see. I'm growing and I'm thankful. I am praying for you and your family and ministry team. God bless you all so much!
Came across your story this morning, and it hit me like a bucket of cold water had been dumped on me unexpectedly. I'm inspired, convicted, and wow'd by the intensity that Christ is shining through your story.
Know that prayers are being lifted up for you from California.
I have been reading your blog for several years...(it seems like?!) and I love your story. Because God writes stories so much more beautiful than we could orchestrate. I lost a baby last year and I am adopting from Ethiopia this year, and I just had a baby biologically...I also know firsthand that pain is not something to be taken lightly. It is often just a journey to know the Lord and his promises more intimately...
My husband and I pray we will be called to work and minister overseas. We are just entering into a ministry position at our church, but hoping that in the next couple of years we will be working overseas...maybe even in Ethiopia.
Praying for your daughters as I am in the word today...and praying for the people of Maese... |
HERNIA
Contralateral Exploration During TEP: Should or Shouldn't Be Done?
Deepak Arora, MD
Background: Over the past two decades, laparoscopic repair of inguinal hernia has made the transition from experimental to a proven procedure. Apart from its well known benefits of decreased post operative pain and shorter recovery time, this procedure also provides the advantage of exploration of the side contralateral to the clinically diagnosed hernia. The aim of this study was to evaluate the incidence of occult or unsuspected contralateral hernia during TEP repair.
Methods: In a retrospective study from July 2003 to July 2007, 200 consecutive male patients clinically diagnosed to have unilateral inguinal hernia were included in this study. Patients with known bilateral hernia, recurrent hernia, femoral and combined hernias were excluded. All the patients underwent TEP with exploration of contralateral side. The procedure was performed by the same team of surgeons. The preoperative clinical impression and existence of unilateral or bilateral hernia on operative findings were noted. A second mesh prosthesis was placed if contralateral hernia was found.
Results: TEP was performed a 200 male patients. Bilateral exploration was done in all the patients and 37 (18.5%) were diagnosed to have contralateral hernia at the time of operative procedure. Out of these 26(70.2%) had direct inguinal hernias and `11 (29.8%) had indirect inguinal hernia. Mean operative time was 57 min (30 - 100 mm). Median age was 46.5 yrs (22-75yrs). Mean period of return to normal activity was 7.5 days (4 -14 days). Time taken for contralateral repair was 8-12 min.
Conclusion: Our study revealed 18.5% occurrence of inguinal hernia on the side contralateral to clinically diagnosed hernia. Routine contralateral groin exploration during TEP appears to be valuable. It is a safe approach and does not greatly increase the operative time. Patients with early identification and repair of contralateral hernia benefit from bilateral TEP repair and it obviates the need for subsequent possible surgery especially in elderly patients and further discomfort & work loss for the patients.
Laparoscopic Ventral Hernia Repair (LVHR): Endoscopic Defect Closure with IPOM, Without Any 10mm Port (P10) & Atraumatic Suture Fixation of Mesh
Brij Bushan Agarwal
Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi, India
Background: Recurrence, seroma, suture site pain (SSP), visible / palpable fascial defect, prosthetic mass, P10 and port site hernias (PSH) are concerns in LVHR. I report anatomical defect closure, mesh insertion, without P10, generous overlap and atraumatic transfixation.
Methods: Prospective study of consecutive LVHRs. Hernial defects (HD) closed in “Vest over Pant (VOP)” manner by passing sutures using spinal needles in an innovative way. A transcutaneous 10 mm trocar (T10) was guided through the HD. This avoided necessity for P10. Mesh was introduced through T10. T10 was withdrawn, VOP suture tied to close HD thus separating mesh from skin by the reconstructed wall. Mesh was positioned providing 5 cm overlap on sides and ends of the suture line of closed HD & transfixed using the spinal needles.
Results: 29 patients (36 defects, 18 females / 11 males, 13 incisional, 4 recurrent with various comorbidities) were operated on day care basis. General anesthesia was used for all except one (Epidural anesthesia). Mean closed HD length 10 cms and OT time were 85 minutes. There was no technical difficulty, use of energy source or conversion. No compression bandage was done. Paracetamol was used as painkiller. There was no seroma, significant SSP, visible/ palpable defect, rehospitalization or recurrence (Mean follow up 31 months).
Conclusion: “VOP” HD closure reinforced by mesh introduced wihtout P10 and suturing with spinal needle technique is better for anatomical continuity, reduction of sac space, overlap with smaller mesh fixed by atraumatic sutures ensuring scientific application of Pascal's law and eliminating PSH.
HEPATOBILIARY
Laparoscopic Cholectstectomy in Tuberculosis of Abdomen When To Operate?
Venugopa Venkatesh, MD
Objective: To determine whether to proceed with Laparoscopic Cholecystectomy when abdominal tuberculosis is found incidentally. I am presenting my experience of 12 cases of cholecystitis ( 8 Acute and 4 Chronic) where abdominal tuberculosis was encountered.
Results: Laparoscopic cholecystectomy was done on all 8 patients with Acute cholecystitis followed by ATT. The 4 chronic cholecystitis cases were managed conservatively with ATT for 3 months & later operated.
Conclusions: Laparoscopic cholecystectomy can be done in patients with Acute Cholecystitis where Abdominal was an incidental finding TB as standard procedure followed by ATT.Chronic Cholecystitis can be operated after 3 months of ATT.
Laparoscopic Cholecystectomies in Patients Over 65 Years of Age
Aslan Sakarya, MD
Celal Bayar University Faculty of Medicine Department of General Surgery, Manisa-Turkey
It has been estimated that within few years persons older than 65 will constitute 25% of worlds population especially in western countries. More and more surgeons will be confronted with elderly patients who need surgical interventions. We have investigated retrospectively the patients older than 65 years of age who had undergone laparoscopic cholecystectomies in our department during January 2000 and August 2007. Total Laparoscopic cholecystectomies were numbered 469 and the number of patients over 65 is 86 (18.3%).There were 56 female and 27 male patients. Octogenerians were numbered 9 (10.5%). The mean age was 71.3 and the oldest patient was 87 years old. There was no mortality and there were 3 (3.5%) complications namely: 1 AV block, 1 intraabdominal hemorrhage and 1 biliary leak. We can conclude that laparoscopic cholecystectomy is a safe procedure in patients over 65 years of age.
Laparoscopic Liver Resections for the Lesions in the Different Locations
Ho-Seong Han MD, PhD
Department of Surgery, Seoul National University College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea
Background: Despite the increasing experience of laparoscopic and hepatic surgery, laparoscopic liver resection is still limited to lesions localized on the antero-lateral segments of the liver. The aim of this study is to evaluate the feasibility of laparoscopic liver resection for tumors located in the postero-superior segments of the liver (Segments I, VII, VIII, and the superior part of IV), and to compare operative outcomes with the antero-lateral segments of the liver (Segments II, III, V, VI, and the inferior part of IV).
Methods: Out of 120 consecutive laparoscopic liver resections from September 2003 to July 2007, we analyzed the clinical data of 77 patients who underwent laparoscopic liver resection for tumors. Five (6.5%) conversions occurred. Patients were classified into two groups according to tumor location: group AL (antero-lateral segments; n=50) and group PS (postero-superior segments, n=22).
Results: There was no mortality, reoperation, or life threatening complications. The predominant type of resection was a minor liver resection in group AL, and a major liver resection in group PS (P<0.001). The mean operative time in group PS (346 min) was longer than that in group AL (222 min; P<0.001). However, there was no difference in the conversion rate (P=0.099), mean blood loss (P=0.061), the rate of intraoperative transfusion (P=0.098), the rate of complications (P=0.293), mean tumor-free margin (P=0.557), and mean hospital stay (P=0.183) between the two groups.
Conclusion: Laparoscopic liver resection for tumors located in PS is more difficult than in AL, but is still feasible and leads to comparable outcome.
MULTIDISCIPLINARY
Endoscopic Breast Surgery Scarless Excision of Breast Lumps
Brij Bhushan Agarwal, MD, MBBS, MS
Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, India
Introduction: Breast an index of femininity is not uncommonly a seat of lumps necessitating surgery. Scar on breast is a high charge socio-cultural issue and a psychological scar as well. Axilla, an anatomically contiguous access route enables excision of BBL endoscopically. This betters the cosmetic results and the sociopsychological well being of the lady as well.
Material and Methods: 27 consecutive, unselected, participating ladies having BBL without any exclusion criteria were operated. Clinical examination, mammography / sonography and FNAC were done to establish the benign nature of BBL. Video of technique is available at
Results: 29 BBLs from all quadrants in 27 (16 married, 11 unmarried) were excised. There were no histopathological surprises. There was no technical difficulty, bleeding, conversion, per/post operative evidence of axillary trauma. All ladies could resume their activity (A), bath (B), commitments (C), diet (D), exercise (E) and fun/family life (F) within 48 hrs of surgery. There was no postoperative collection, hematoma or evidence of axillary injury. All the ladies were pleased and effusively appreciative.
Conclusion: Endoscopic excision of BBL is safe and patient friendly procedure. It is helpful in preserving physical as well as psychological femininity.
Who Should Be Doing Surgery in Pelvic Endometriosis? Is There a Need to Certify Such Surgeon?
Paul I. Lee, MD
Laparoscopy in Emergency Surgery
Venugopa Venkatesh, MD
Aim: Laparoscopy is a valuable diagnostic and therapeutic instrument in the management of abdominal emergencies. I present my experience with the use of laparoscopy in patients with symptoms of localised or diffuse peritonitis over the past 10 years.
Material and Results: From 1996 - 2006, 1597 patients with localized on diffuse peritonitis were operated upon,941 Appendectomies, 544 Cholecystectomies, 43 Sutures for perforated ulcer, 38 for Acute Pancreatitis and 31 procedures for Abdominal Trauma. The percentage of patients undergoing Laparoscopic emergency surgery gradually increased over a period of last 10 years to reach 96% today. The conversion rate was 3.1% in Appendectomy 9.2% in Cholecystectomy, 14.4% in Peforated Ulcer and 7.3% with Acute Pancreatitis.
Retrospectively, we found that the length of hospital stay, post operative pain and post operative complication rate was markedly lower in patients operated laparoscopically.
Conclusion: Laparoscopic surgery offers effective treatment in most of abdominal emergencies. Also, hospital stay is shorter and complication rate is markedly lower among patients operated laparoscopically.
Management of the Surgical Center for Smooth Endoscopic Surgery and Efficient Use of Operative Rooms
Hisashi Usuki MD, PhD, Kunihiko Izuishi MD, PhD, Yasuyuki Suzuki MD, PhD
Faculty of Medicine, Kagawa University
The surgical center is a department making large profit in the hospital. Then, the management of the surgical center has big influence on the finance of the hospital. On the other hand, it takes long time to perform endoscopic surgery for cancers of various organs more than open surgery. Therefore, it is very important to deal with the operations in the environment of limited operation rooms, limited equipments for endoscopic surgery and limited medical staffs. For this purpose, efficient improvement of operation rooms is very important. Then, in the first step, the discrepancy between the scheduled time of the operations and the time spent actually was investigated. In the result, the operations finished within the scheduled time were 52.4% of all operations. The other operations were extended more than scheduled times. In the second step, the reasons of the extension of the operative periods were examined. The reasons of the extension of the operation were classified into four groups, which were “preoperative misdiagnosis”, “technical problem of surgeon”, ”systematic problem of surgical center”, ”application of shorter time on purpose”. The most frequent reason of the extension of operation was preoperative misdiagnosis of the stage of the disease, the degree of the adhesion or etc. The correctness of the schedule is important to the efficient management of the surgical center and for the comfort of the medical staffs and the family members. And the solution of the systematic problems is also important for efficient improvement.
HEPATOBILIARY
Laparoscopic Cholecystectomy Without Using Any Energy Source—Ensuring Better Results
Brij Bhushan Agarwal, MD, MBBS, MS
Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, India
Introduction: Structured skills training, pre / perioperative anatomical imaging and system's approach have failed to bring the outcomes of Laparoscopic Cholecystectomy(LC) at par with open cholecystectomy. Electrocautery (EC) accepted as a culprit that can be done away with as shown by us continuous to be used. I present the outcomes of LC done with or without EC.
Material and Methods: 135 consecutive unselected symptomatic cholelithiasis patients without any exclusion were randomized for LC with or without EC. Video of technique is available at <> . They were monitored for hemodynamic instability, post - separation hemostasis at liver bed (LB), vascular / visceral injuries, gallbladder (GB) perforation by dissecting instruments, conversion, peritonism/constipation, beyond 24 hrs, rehospitalization, re-exploration, biliary leak and mortality.
Results: There were 3 biliary injuries, 1 duodenal injury, 11 GB perforations, 2 hemodynamic instabilities, 7 re-hospitalizations, 5 re-exploration for biliary leak and 2 deaths in EC group (n=70) as against 1 biliary leak (retained CBD stone with cystic stump leak) in non EC group (n-65). There was 1 conversion common to both groups as EC was used to avoid conversion in this case originally from non EC group.
Discussion: EC has been recognized as a potential source of morbidity and its consequences in LC. LC can be done safely without using any energy sources. Yet reliance on EC in LC leads to unfavaorable outcomes as shown in this study.
Conclusion: EC is associated with significant avoidable morbidity and mortality in LC.
Approach and Management of Bile Leaks After Laparoscopic Cholecystectomies
Atilla Cokmez, MD
The four basic principles in treatment of a biliary leak are
1. Control of the leak externally (ie, converting any
undrained collection of bile to an external fistula)
2. Control of systemic sepsis
3. Definition of the biliary anatomy
4. Decompression of the major biliary sphincter
The management of bile leaks following laparoscopic cholecystectomy(LC) has evolved with increased experience of ERCP and laparoscopy. Twenty patients were with a bile leak following LC were recorded between 1996 and 2006 in our institution.
Ultrasound is inexpensive and may be a useful first step in diagnosing postoperative intra-abdominal fluid collections. Interpretation of ultrasound images may be limited by the presence of intestinal gas, and this technique also is quite dependent on individual operator expertise. Abdominal CT provides a more detailed view of intra-abdominal structures as well as any undrained fluid collections.
Abdominal CT scan was used in all our patients with suspicion of bile leak and CT pictures identified bile accumulation in 8 patients.
Bile leaks presented as bile in drain routinely left during index procedure or biliary peritonitis.
Four patients underwent laparotomy, six patients were were treated by ES, endobiliary stent, or a combination of both modalities. Ten patients recovered with conservative treatment.
There was one mortality and median hospital stay after laparoscopic cholecystectomy with bile leak was 12 days(6-45).
The introduction of ERCP /Stenting and re-laparoscopy or laparotomy offers an effective algorithm for the management of bile leaks after LC.
We concluded that stent insertion was superior to ES alone in controlling post-cholecystectomy bile leak but acknowledged the limitations of our retrospective study design.
GYNECOLOGY
Single Port Access (SPA) Bilateral Oopherectomy and Hysterectomy
Stephanie A. King, MD, Ata Atogho, MD, Erica Podolsky MD, Paul G. Curcillo II MD
Drexel University College of Medicine, Philadelphia PA
Introduction: Laparoscopic techniques have been widely accepted in gynecologic surgery since the 1960's facilitating easier dissection and visualization in the confines of the pelvis. A variety of procedures have become the standard of care making sometimes difficult open procedures safer and quicker. In the 1970's, the single arm operative scope was employed for tubal ligations. This scope required a single abdominal port of entry and allowed one rigid functional instrument to be inserted alongside the scope. Its use was limited in other procedures by the rigidity of the instruments. A single port access (SPA) surgical technique has been developed at our institution. Using one umbilical incision with articulating instrumentation, this technique reduces surgical scarring while broadening the variety of procedures to be performed through a single incision.
Methods: Five SPA bilateral salpingoophorectomies were performed at our institution. A transverse umbilical incision following the medial fold was used as the portal of entry for all five procedures. A 5mm trocar was inserted at the midline for a 5mm scope. Skin flaps were raised laterally allowing for two 5mm accessory trocars to be inserted inferior and lateral to the initial trocar. Using the accessory trocars the round ligament and infundibulopelvic ligaments were transected. The suspensory ligament, fallopian tube, and mesosalpinx were then dissected. The ovary was removed through the umbilicus. The same procedure was repeated on the opposite side. The fascia was closed using 0 Vicryl and the skin with a running 4 Vicryl subcuticular stitch.
Results: All five women tolerated the procedure well. Operative time and length of stay were comparable to the traditional multiple port procedures. Post operative recovery was uneventful. No complications were encountered. Cosmetic results were excellent with scars being hidden in the umbilicus.
Discussion: Gynecologic surgery was among the first surgical specialties to adopt minimally invasive surgery. Improved visualization allows for easier dissection of the tight pelvic anatomy. Laparoscopy also allows for reduction of surgical scarring.
In the 1970's the single arm operative scope further reduced operative scarring by utilizing a single incision at the umbilicus. This technique was limited because only one instrument could be inserted alongside the scope. A single eyepiece was used for visualization restricting this procedure to single operator.
Single port access (SPA) surgery uses the umbilicus for a single portal of entry into the abdominal cavity. In more difficult dissection, articulating instruments allowed us to maintain the procedure as a single port technique. The technique of dissection is the same as being done in standard pelvic minimally invasive surgeries. Although the articulating instruments were not necessary for all procedures their availability facilitated difficult dissections.
Laparoscopic Endometrioma Cystectomy Before IVF
Aygul Demirol, MD
Women Health, Infertility and IVF Center, Ankara/Turkey
Anovulation or oligo-ovulation is one of the main characteristics of the polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). When patients with PCOS complain of infertility, ovulation induction is the appropriate treatment. Various drugs and treatment regimens have been used for ovulation induction in PCOS, but none of them has become unique in achieving the goals. The reason for the existence of so many treatment regimens is related to the multifactorial pathophysiology of PCOS and consequently to the variability in clinical manifestations and the hormonal milieu.
Anovulation is a common cause of infertility. About 70% of infertile women presenting with oligomenorrhoea or amenorrhoea exhibit normal FSH and estradiol (E2) concentrations (World Health Organization [WHO], Type-2 anovulation). Normogonadotropic anovulatory infertility can be identified in 18-25% of the couples presenting with infertility. Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) represents the most common diagnosis within this patient group.
In addition, assisted reproduction technologies (ART) like intrauterine insemination (IUI) or IVF are increasingly applied, although well-designed studies documenting efficacy and safety in PCOS are lacking in this patient group. Certainly, with improved outcome and the more frequent use of single embryo transfer, eliminating chances for multiple pregnancies, IVF has become a serious alternative to ovulation induction. In addition, favorable IVF outcomes have been reported applying in vitro oocyte maturation in PCOS. Despite this trend, uncertainty remains with regard to risk of ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS), cycle cancellation rate, oocyte quality and fertilization rates in PCOS women undergoing IVF. Furthermore, it remains unclear whether pregnancy rates differ between PCOS and non-PCOS women. Most published data are derived from uncontrolled, observational studies with small study populations.
In the meta-analysis of Heijnen et al. (2006) it was demonstrated that despite the fact that more oocytes per cycle were obtained along with lower fertilization rates, PCOS and non-PCOS patients achieve similar pregnancy rates and live births per started IVF cycle.
Specific characteristics of PCOS considered to explain the higher incidence of OHSS include the presence of polycystic ovaries, an LH:FSH ratio > 2 and hyperandrogenism. Furthermore, an increased expression of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) mRNA within the hypertrophic stroma of polycystic ovaries has been associated with increased risk of OHSS.
An increased number of oocytes were retrieved following ovarian stimulation in the PCOS group compared with controls, but the fertilization rate was higher in the control group resulting in an equal total number of oocytes fertilized in both groups. A number of published studies have addressed possible reasons for this observation. No significant difference in rate of metaphase II oocytes, rate of germinal vesicles oocytes and fertilization rate was showed between the two groups. This finding points to involvement of cytoplasmic factors instead of involvement of the nuclear maturity of oocytes.
Given the importance of hyperinsulinemia in the development of hyperandrogenism and disrupted folliculogenesis, it seems likely that medications that act as insulin-sensitizing agents may be useful in restoration of normal endocrinologic and clinical parameters of this condition. Therapeutic measures directed at lowering insulin secretion in women with PCOS should theoretically ameliorate their hyperandrogenism and restore normal follicular growth, thus facilitating ovulation. Preliminary reports indicate that metformin may improve the IVF outcome and reduce pregnancy loss.
Reduced hyperandrogenaemia and insulin resistance in PCOS women should facilitate FSH stimulation. In PCOS patients it has been shown that metformin reduces insulin, testosterone and LH concentrations, which are elevated in these patients it was hypothesized that parallel administration of metformin before and during IVF cycles may reduce the requirement for FSH and improve the quality of embryos, increasing the pregnancy rate. Although the effects of metformin on FSH stimulation have been debated in the literature in recent years.
We performed a randomized study related to the metformin therapy that one-hundred patients with PCOS referred to IVF cycle were enrolled (ESHRE 2006, oral presentation). Metformin resulted in reduction in total gonadotropin dosage and OHSS rate. Embryo morphology was improved in metformin group. Implantation (26% in group II and 17% in group I) and pregnancy rates (68% in group II and 30% in group I) were higher in metformin group. In addition, abortion rate was lower in the metformin group.
A promising approach to the management of patients with PCOS in the context of IVF is the recently developed technique of in-vitro maturation of immature oocytes obtained from polycystic ovaries. Some clinics are reporting very high pregnancy rates with IVM. However, in most clinics, the pregnancy and live birth rates with IVM do not match those reported for IVF cases using ovulation induction. Therefore, only specific patients are currently considered for IVM, most notably PCOS patients who might be more sensitive to the elevated levels of gonadotropins and ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS) might be prevented by IVM. We achieved the first IVM pregnancy in Turkey and the first pregnancy resulted in a healthy birth. We are continuing the IVM programme for PCOS patients but the pregnancy rate is lower than conventional protocols in our unit too.
Endometrioma and IVF
Endometriosis affects 2.5% - 3% of women in reproductive age and is diagnosed in 20% - 68% of the women with infertility. Extensive endometriosis may simply impair fertility by mechanical means. However, the main visible features of the minimal and mild stages of endometriosis are peritoneal or ovarian endometriotic implants and filmy adhesions on the fallopian tubes or ovaries and the causal link between these cases and infertility is much debated. There are a variety of treatment options for women with endometriosis. These include: expectant management, medical, and surgical therapy. It is generally agreed that women with moderate to severe endometriosis who desire pregnancy benefit from surgical therapy.The impact of ovarian endometriomas on ART (assisted reproduction technologies) outcomes is controversial. It has been suggested that the presence of an ovarian endometriotic cyst might impair oocytes quality in the ipsilateral ovary and the response to controlled ovarian hyperstimulation (COH), as well as fertilization and implantation rates might be decreased.
There is a controversy concerning the effect of surgery in patients with endometriosis on the future response and in vitro fertilization (IVF) outcome. Following ovarian endometrioma cystectomy, some studies have shown conflicting results on ovarian response, with some patients showing a detrimental and others showing no adverse effect. All studies concerning the effect of ovarian endometrioma cystectomy on ART outcome either retrospective or case-control studies. There is a lack of randomized controlled study to definitely report the impact of conservative surgery of ovarian endometriomas prior to IVF/ICSI cycle.
As far as we know, no randomized trials have been performed to evaluate the effect of removing endometriomas prior to IVF. In our prospective randomized controlled study, in the ovarian surgery group stimulation was significantly longer, total recombinant FSH dose was significantly higher and mean number of mature oocytes were significantly lower, and there were no significant differences in terms of fertilization, implantation and pregnancy rates (Demirol et al., 2006). |
pav 2008-04-09 13:42:26 UTC FreeBSD ports repository Modified files: archivers/tclmkziplib Makefile astro/gpsman Makefile astro/ptiger Makefile astro/tclgeomap Makefile astro/tkgeomap Makefile astro/xeartk Makefile audio/etktab Makefile audio/snack Makefile audio/xcd Makefile chinese/hanzim Makefile chinese/tcl83 Makefile chinese/tk83 Makefile comms/tkhylafax Makefile comms/tkscanfax Makefile converters/xdeview Makefile databases/metakit Makefile databases/mysqltcl Makefile databases/pgaccess Makefile databases/pgtcl Makefile databases/postgresql-pltcl Makefile databases/postgresql-tcltk Makefile databases/sqlite2 Makefile databases/sqlite3 Makefile databases/sqlite34 Makefile databases/tcl-Mysql Makefile deskutils/ical Makefile deskutils/zorro Makefile devel/SpecTcl Makefile devel/cbrowser Makefile devel/clig Makefile devel/e4graph Makefile devel/gcvs Makefile devel/hs-tclhaskell-ghc Makefile devel/p5-Inline-Tcl Makefile devel/swig11 Makefile devel/tcl-memchan Makefile devel/tcl-neo 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The holiday season is right around the corner. That means cocktail parties, cocktail dresses, and of course, the classic LBD. What that also means is you’ll need to gain the will power to "just say no" to your pants with the elastic waistband this Thanksgiving and in the weeks that follow. Here are few simple, easy-to-follow tips to enjoy your holiday eating and imbibing without the guilt.
Exercise in the morning
Plan a hike with your family and/or visiting guests, join a local group bike ride, or check out local fitness facilities that offer special Thanksgiving or other morning classes. On Turkey Day, check to see if your hometown holds a Turkey Trot or another fun 5k or 10k race on Thanksgiving morning. Many of these races exist around the country and most of the proceeds benefit food banks and local charities trying to feed the hungry.
Including physical activity on the mornings of the most gluttonous season of the year means you will be able to increase your metabolism for the day and will likely make better food choices when at the dinner table. If you decide to indulge in an extra slice of pie or glass of wine, at least you’ve burned a few calories first!
Maintain your workout schedule
Company, club, and family parties may interfere with your regular workout schedule. Checking your weekly schedule at the beginning of each week is a good practice to keep, and even more so during this time of holiday commitments. When holiday parties interfere with your workouts, reschedule your workout at a different time. Don't skip your workouts, even if it means abbreviating them. Squeezing in 15-20 minutes will still provide you more benefits than not doing anything at all.
Don’t skip breakfast
In order to prevent guilt-ridden overeating and letting out the waistband on your trousers, eat breakfast. Do not skip meals earlier in the day. Prepare healthy meals or snacks before your dinner to avoid feeling famished, which can result in overeating.
Use smaller plates
I know... you are already dreaming about plates laden with Thanksgiving goodies. But if you want to keep your summer shape, you will have to serve yourself smaller portions all winter long. Serve yourself 1/3-1/2 of what you would normally put on your plate. If you opt for a second serving you should still serve yourself a smaller portion. With this approach you will consume at least half the calories of holidays-past.
Practice conscious consumption
Rather than eating mindlessly while deep in conversation, look at what you stick your fork into before putting it in your mouth. Enjoy the flavors while savoring the food as you chew slowly. You will be less likely to eat the food that is not as satisfying to you, become satiated faster, eat more slowly (which means you will have less time to go up for seconds), and enjoy the taste of your meal at the first plate.
Enjoy this holiday season! And if you follow these tips, you'll be able to do it while staying the same size into the New Year's Eve party. Read: you won't be one of those frantic weight loss fanatics fighting over the treadmill at the gym, madly trying to lose the nine pounds gained over the course of the five weeks of winter holiday festivities. Instead, you’ll look stunning and chic as you ring in 2013.! ;-)
The thought of donning your bathing suit this summer is taunting you…You know it’s time to ramp up those workouts. But it’s spring. That means if you go out for that awesome workout, you’ll spend the rest of the day sniffling, sneezing, and figuring out how to keep your makeup from running with your teary eyes. Ugh, allergies!
Rather than dismiss physical activity through the months of spring and admit bitter defeat against your summer wardrobe, try some other options:
1. If you have a gym membership, use it. If not, it might be time to invest in one.
2. Check out those workout videos in the sale section at Target or at the library. You can even find them online.
3. Still like hoofing in the open air? Commit to early morning workouts when the pollen count is low and other nasal irritants have not yet been stirred up.
4. Avoid outdoor workouts on windy days and the day after.
After being outdoors, wash away lingering irritants. Immediately wash the clothes that you had been wearing, wash your face, and shower. Saline washes for your eyes and nasal passages (yes, like a neti pot) also help make allergies less annoying.
During allergy season, consider adding more foods high in omega-3 fatty acids to your diet, like salmon and halibut, flaxseed oil, or walnuts. Omega-3s aid your body with suppressing the inflammatory responses to allergens that cause teary eyes and runny noses.
Don’t play victim to this season’s wind and pollen count, while prepping for the warmer summer months. You can make adjustments to your workout routine and join the swimsuit-clad population on the beach—or anywhere else, if you choose—very soon.
Made Woman Mag is excited to participate in the Revlon Run/Walk for Women again this year on May 12. This event is especially dear to the hearts of Made Woman's co-founders, as both of their mothers are women's cancer survivors. The Made Woman team had a lot of fun last year honoring amazing women from all backgrounds and walking toward finding a cure. Being there for this event left a deep impression on us and we left truly inspired.
The Revlon Run/Walk is a 5K race and participants run or walk at their own pace. If you can't make it out to the event, you can still fight this disease by donating. Your donation will help fund important research into the cause and cure of women's cancers, prevention, education and support service programs. In a way, however large or small, we can all work towards curing this disease that affects so many.
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Having a nice butt is important. Even if yours isn’t insured for $27 million bucks and you didn’t create a new word for it, I’m sure you still do the over-the-shoulder butt check. I know I do. No one wants something too flat or lumpy in the back for obvious reasons (ahem, boys...); but your rear should be in good shape for optimal health/fitness as well.
The muscles in your rear end stabilize your legs while you walk and run. They are also integral parts of your body’s powerhouse, called your core. You know, the part of your mid-section that most people think is another word for abs. Well, your core—your powerhouse—includes the whole structure of your body (yes, it’s a structure), from your shoulder girdle down to the bottom of your pelvis. That means -- say it with me, folks -- your butt is part of your powerhouse. Not only does a strong one look good in your clothes and stabilize your lower half, it helps you jump higher and leap further. Why not work it?
Need some ideas? I just happen to have some for you. Here are four of my favorite exercises to get that tush tight.
Quadruped hip extension
This is a great everyday exercise that you may do at home. Begin on all fours, with your shoulders over your hands and hips over your knees. Draw your ribs down and tuck your tailbone under to flatten your back, creating a table-top position. Squeeze your hind cheeks and keep your stomach drawn in, as you extend one leg back, allowing your foot to come up to hip height. To make sure you are doing this one right, place a dowel along your spine and balance it there as you do this exercise, and alternate your extending leg.
Seat hover
You can do this one at your desk. Before sitting in your seat, let your bottom hover over your seat pan a couple of inches. Be sure to tuck your tailbone under you and clench your glutes. Keep your shoulders drawn back to keep your back flat. When you can’t stand it anymore, stand straight up by squeezing those burning glutes.
Lunge
You thought you knew’em…Here’s how to do them and make them count. Take a long step forward, so that you are in a long stride position. Lean your chest forward, while keeping your back flat (you want your back to appear to form a straight line from the crown of your head down to the heel of the foot that is behind you). Your chest will line up with the middle of the thigh that is in front of you. Keeping your hips square (as if parallel to a wall in front of you) and squeezing your glutes, slowly lower your back knee toward the floor. Hold that position for a few seconds, while you feel a little heat in your working muscles. You want to feel like you could pounce forward by jumping off your lead leg. Slowly straighten your legs, returning you to ready position. Repeat as many as you are able to with good form, then switch sides.
Side leg lift
I like this one, as well, because I can multi-task while I do it—while washing dishes, brushing my teeth, folding laundry... While balancing on one leg, which stays slightly bent, raise the non-supporting leg straight out to the side of your body, angling slightly back. Keep your hips directly below your shoulders. Guess what? Squeeze your tush! And, as you do that, slowly raise the angled leg up. Lower and repeat ten to fifteen times, and repeat on your other side.
Within a few weeks of working on these simple four exercises, a few times each week, you will start to notice a lift in your hindquarters region. Print out this page and keep it with you so that you can get working on your new million dollar butt!
We
all have those days when nothing seems to go right: couldn’t find your
keys, stuck in traffic, missed a deadline, spilled coffee on your white
blouse… Sometimes the weight of what goes wrong just makes you feel low.
All you feel like doing on those days is crawling back in bed and
hoping that tomorrow is better. Guess what? You don’t have to resign to
your bed to reboot your day. You have the power within your own body to
turn your day around.
If you’ve been doing it, then you already know it. It really isn’t a secret that after you work out, you no longer feel like you need to kick and scream, self-medicate, or drown sorrows in the bottom of a bucket of Ben & Jerry’s and a bag of salt and pepper Kettle Chips… then fall asleep amongst the crumbs of your guilt. Instead you can hop on the treadmill and run, leaving your troubles behind.
There’s some science behind why exercise has the same effects of chemically-induced highs and fatty food-elicited comfort. Morphine, codeine, oxycodone, heroin, and other opiates are synthesized (or partially manufactured) chemicals that create artificial endorphins in the body. Endorphins are hormones, created and released by our own bodies during exercise, excitement, pain (it alleviates the pain and helps us endure it), consumption of spicy food, and sex.
Frankly, I think exercise and sex are the healthiest options for generating a natural high (the latter, only if it’s drama-free). You can exercise any time of day. So, rather than depend on pharmaceuticals, and to prevent morning-after (insert junk food option here) guilt, lace up your kicks and go for a run, hike, dance class, or other type of fun and exercise. That’s your natural high. You’re not letting a few mishaps lead you to where your day should end. That’s girl-power: to take charge of your body and your mood, and work it out until you are glowing with sweat and with happiness.
This article was part of our series "30 Days of Made: Love Yourself". Each day we released updates of videos, poetry, images, and original content, all based on the theme of loving yourself. Click the link to read more!
We all want them…MichelleObamaArms. I have been working on sculpting my arms since seeing Angela Basset in "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" (actually, I realized I wanted them since I saw her play Tina Turner in “What’s Love Got To Do With It”, but I was too young to hit the gym).
I hate to break it to you, but if it’s not in your genetic map, your arms will not magically chisel away and reveal perfectly shaped arms. But wait! There is hope. You will be able to firm those arms so that they are flauntable in your cute sleeveless top....with a little work.
Here are a few moves to get you there, strengthen your core, and stabilize your shoulders.
Hand Walks/Inchworms
This is a great full body warm-up exercise that also conditions your core, promotes hamstring and back flexibility, and strengthens your shoulder stabilizers.
Begin by standing with your feet hip-width apart. Holding your stomach in and gluts pinched, lower your hands toward the floor in front of your feet. If your hamstrings (the muscles in the back of your upper legs) are tight, bend your knees when you need to, in order to get your hands flat on the floor. Walk your hands out, as if going into push-up position, then walk your feet, using small steps, toward your hands. Repeat the hand walk-outs across the room and then reverse the order to go backwards as long as you can endure it.
GI Jane Push-Ups
Also known as yogi posh-ups or triceps push-ups, these push-ups are great to stabilize your core and emphasize greater triceps burn (the muscles in the back of your upper arms—yes, that spot).
Begin face down, with your shoulders over your hands and arms straight, pressing you up. If beginning the push-ups from your toes is too challenging, put your knees down and do the exercise from there. You may also modify by doing the push-ups, pressing away from your kitchen counter.
Here’s the move: lower your body in one single movement (hold your stomach in tight so your hips don’t drop as you lower) by bending your elbows while sliding them toward your waist; then, straighten your arms, pressing your body away from the floor (or counter if you started there. Continue holding your stomach in to prevent your butt from pressing up in the air before the rest of your body does). Your body should move in one plane.
Lateral Raise
This is a shoulder strengthening and sculpting exercise you can do in your kitchen, if not the gym.
Stand with your legs staggered, like a slight lunge position. Position yourself in a forward lean, bending at the hips so your back remains flat, and your chest lines up with your mid-thigh. Holding a light weight in each hand (you can even make weights with gallon jugs of water, adjusting the weight by varying the volume of water in the bottles) with straight arms, lift the weights on either side of you, to shoulder height. Lower and repeat. It’s almost like mimicking flapping wings, in super-slow motion. You should be able to perform about 10-12 repetitions and feel a good burn in your shoulders. If not, then you need heavier weights (or more liquid in your bottles).
Side Plank Push-Ups
This strengthens the same areas as the exercises above plus a bonus, as you get added strength and stability by adding dynamic movement to some classic exercises—the side plank and the push-up.
Your start position is push-up position (shoulders over your hands, and body holding steady in a line to your toes, or knees for the modification). Do one push-up, then rotate onto the right side of your feet (or knees if you are modifying this movement) while lifting your left hand off the floor and reaching it toward the sky, holding steady for a few seconds. Holding your navel in, lower your left hand back to the mat, returning to the ready position. Do another push-up and repeat the side plank on the left side. Repeat as many as you can with good form.
Bicep Curls
Now, you know some moves to chisel your shoulders and triceps. This one is for the fronts of your arms.
Use dumbbells if you have them. If not, grab those gallon jugs again. Stand with your feet hip-width apart, shoulders drawn back, and stomach in. Keep your elbows close to your waist, and curl the weight toward your shoulder. Repeat as many as you can with good form (that means, not swinging your body back and forth). You should feel fatigue in your biceps by 12 repetitions. If not, you’ll need heavier weights.
If you have never done anything for your arms before, you will notice that you feel stronger and firmer within a few weeks. For sculpting to really happen, (sorry to break this to you, too) you will have to combine the exercise with a healthy diet, where you eat good food and reduce your portion sizes. Keep at it, and you may be the next First Lady…OK, more realistically, you’ll be able to show off your arms in your cocktail dress. Have fun with it!
Since the beginning of time (well, maybe just since humans needed to figure out ways to be less sedentary and more entertained), people have explored different ways to be both active and amused. The popularity of pole and lap dancing fitness classes proves how adaptation of certain activities, formerly thought of unsavory by some, can go mainstream as acceptable group exercise classes. The underlying themes of all of these fitness programs is that workouts should be fun. People should look forward to, be motivated to go to, and want to go back to whatever activity they choose to help them get fit.
Since we all are amused by different activities, the list goes on when it comes to unique exercise programs. Once considered weird, some modes of fitness have become Olympic sports like trampolining. (Seeing people bouncing and doing tricks on a trampoline at the Olympics is fun, but I consider curling weird. Look it up.) Although, I don’t see group exercise activities, like cardio lap dance going to the Olympics, I think we can appreciate new and different attempts at making physical activity more entertaining. Let’s take a look at a few exceptional ways that some people are challenging their fitness.
By Land
Kangoo Jumps – Originally developed for physical rehabilitation for joggers and runners, these boots with the spring-like device for a sole, make Skechers Shape-Ups look wussy. I have to admit when I first saw a couple of joggers wearing them, I giggled to myself because they look silly—but fun. The fun factor and the capability to make high impact activity low impact has kept them around. There are group run, old-school, choreographed aerobics classes dedicated to these kangaroo shoes. Admit it, who doesn’t love to bounce?
Spy Workout – Do you admire the actors’ prowess in action flicks? There are whole workouts dedicated to get you shredded like Jason Bourne (OK, ladies, how about Angelina Jolie in Salt?). These classes usually consist of obstacle courses that require you to jump, flip, crawl, dip, pull-up, and swing over, under, and around various objects. Want to do it yourself? Check out the Parkour training stations at your local park ().
By Sea – Don’t try these at home, kids…
Rock Running – I first saw this on television almost 10 years ago, but it still amazes me. I’ve heard differing stories behind the origin of this exercise. One story is that it started as conditioning for clam divers, then surfers and swimmers adopted it to help with their own aerobic capacities. Regardless, grabbing a big heavy rock and sprinting across the water floor, completely submerged, can still be called unique.
Underwater Kettlebells – As if kettlebells on land weren’t enough of a challenge…Adrenalin and testosterone junkies have taken kettlebells to a whole new place. These cow-bell shaped weights already look like giant diver weights to me. There is a cult of fitness enthusiasts, rather fanatics, using kettlebells underwater in a Navy Seal-esque form of exercise. They use the weights to drop them down to the bottom of a shallow-ish area of water (shallow being relative—it looks like 15-20 feet to me), just to climb back up, perform other exercise half on land and half in the water, just to repeat it all again…fully dressed!
By Air
Jukari – Reebok teamed up with Cirque du Soleil to create this studio fitness class that is conceptualized around the circus trapeze. Each person gets her/his own swing. Throughout the class you get to swing, spin, fly, and hang your way to looking fly.
Anti-gravity yoga – So far, I have only seen this at Crunch Fitness. It looks like cocoon meets yoga. Ivory sheets of fabric suspend you inches off the studio floor to help you with various bends and poses without worrying that gravity will pull you down, crashing to the floor.
With so many unusual ways to get fit, there really aren’t too many excuses for you not to get up off the couch. If you can’t find something you like, make it up. Get fit and have fun! |
alan– First, if a bad thought or a homosexual thought enterns into your head that in its self is not a sin! It only becomes sin in two ways; one, if you start to dwell upon the thought and dont imediatly check it out of your head. second, When you eventualy act upon that thought ofcourse is sin, but not just win one jumps in an out your head its hard for us to control that it happens to me all the time but people might think i have something wrong with me cause they might catch me shaking my head and if they only new that was me trying to kick the thought out so would not dwell up it. Oh and as far as president kimball theres a fine line between it just getting there and you dwelling on it, he probably meant when your dwelling on it.
I agree that it can be a very hard struggle that one might have to go through ya know but, we all have are weakness and things that we are working on that bring us in odds with the church and if you ever want to hear mine ill tell you one day. I know its hard but, what you can remember the lord saying it may be hard but it will be worth it. Im not prophet but i will promise you that we indeed are in the last days and We are so close and your or anyone elses sacrafice will be multiplied 1000 fold in the next life which i believe is only years ways.
Thy strugle shall only be but for a small momment and if YOU alan indure it well ye shall be exalted on high! I know its not easy when i get up in the mormoning to go to church my nerves get bad and i feel im on my way to jail but, something happens once im there and i start to feel the spirit it chances everything. Alan i know its alot easier out there in the world and alot of other churches would make us do half the stuff the church wants you to do. But, i do it or try my best to do it cause i know my savior is comming very very soon alan, just watch the news everyday and what i do now determines where i will be for ETERNITY, and i would love to see you there buddy.
I study prophecy alot, last days type of stuff im kinda addicted to it so its freaking me out how close we actual, i see everything falling right into place, i have always been taught to that this chaos and even trouble with in the church would happen cause the lord had to do a weeding out in his church, he has to separate the wheat from the tares. So those leaving, not all cause some come back are the tares.
yes you were correct that i know that satan brakes up families thats his job to destroy families and it God job to exalt families, families with a loving mother and fathr who can have kids together in the next life to populate other worlds with your children and two men could never fufill gods purpose to do that it would frustrate God and turn him into a liar.
In the next life those who get to make it to the celestrial kingdom are either ministering angels, who are not givin into marriage in the next life. therefor they do not have sex at all to even worry about it. Then there are the gods, those can make up two types and two types alone. 1) one man with one women who have spirit children and do things like heavenly father does now. 2) one man with many women meaning polygamy, their will never be two husbands with wives. Prophets and apostles have always taught that to be the case. So i hear ya man i know you or your friends are having a hard time and are confused and think its gods doing but budy satan wants nothing more then to destroy you life and heavely fathers plan..The family…..moses 1:39 “FOR BEHOLD THIS IS MY WORK AND MY GLORY TO BRING TO PASS THE IMMORTALITY AND ETERNAL LIFE OF MAN” And all satan wants is to destroy you and make sure you never make it back to our father presence. You can do it man, could you get on you knees and ask the lord with your whole heart and ask him what you want.. well i probably dont have to explain to you what you have to do i think you already know. ps i do understand and respect your points..
kuri–is that how you like it?
ExMoHoMoDon–Anything i can do to help raise your selfasteam is a win win situation for the both of us.
paragraphs i mean-
Emily– if you have recently left the church then you just might not be in the right mind frame on how to judge active members. I say the word “gay” cause as far as ive alway know the word is not bad or an insult to a homosexual or atleast not around here where im from its like asking or saying your white or black, strait or gay. So if you think the word gay is an insult take it up with the gays cuase i am not. And if you read this blog as much as you said you have you would realize this site is mostly made up of homosexuals, liberals, bisexuals, and so i think i was right on topic. And remeber “if you must judge judge rightously and i call sin as sin and i dont call evil good and good evil. So i like to think of myself as the big brother who gets on their nerves and tryes to set them strait but if someone messed with my little brother i would kick the other guys but for my gay friend. By the way im 32 and still beautiful so stay away from the near 40′s youll give me a complex.
chino blanco–well i guess youve heard of the scripture that says not to cast your pearls before swine… Do you know what a pearl is, well its God giving you one more oportunity to hear the gospel before he dusts his feet off on you and it is close my friend. What is a swine, well its evil or worldy men who will just take your pearls of salvation and trample them under their feet. So i know everything a rightous man would tell you would go through one ear and out the other. Dont ask me ask god and ask him in prayer. Dont worry soon i will be off this site and everyone can agree with eachother and there will be no progression amongst you cause you dont like people not thinking in your box.
Re: 289, 290, 291 — No doubt. I’m kind of surprised to see how long this has been going on. I didn’t read it at all yesterday — mostly because I was busy finishing up building the most amazing Lego city I’ve ever made. I’m going to try to post some pictures of it later today.
I must admit I haven’t read all the responses to this thread, but I thought I would give my opinion anyway. IMO, the Internet is the reason so many people are leaving the church now. What used to be difficult to find (such as information on Mormonism) is now easily accessible with just a click of a mouse. And although TBMs would tell you that the information on the Internet is “anti,” the fact is that most of it is not — it is the truth. From the truth behind Polygamy to Polyandry to the First Vision to the supposed martyrdom of Joseph Smith to the Book of Abraham to the Book of Mormon to the Kinderhook Plates and on and on, it is all right there. To paraphrase a well-known “Mormon” scripture, “If anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of Google.”
My experience both in the mission field and in dealing with local inactive members is that they don’t really know or care about all the issues on the Internet.
They simply lost interest or never integrated into the LDS community.
If you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
If your an online ex-Mormon, you tend to assume all ex-Mormons are just as torn up about the controversies as you are. But it really isn’t necessarily the case.
When did you go on your mission Seth?
ahem.
Who needs the internet when people like Jason will peddle distasteful Mormon doctrine unironically anywhere and everywhere.
If I didn’t already KNOW that’s what Mormons Really Believe (TM), I might’ve been quite perturbed to discover
Seth, Diane, there’s no reason you can’t both be right.
It is true that a lot of people (especially new converts) simply lose interest or were never integrated into the Mormon community. OTOH, it is also true that lots of people (including lifelong, committed members) leave because information flows so much more freely. The path from “I feel like there’s something that’s not right here” and actually finding out what’s not right is so much shorter and simpler.
Andrew s–No buddy its only Doctrine, not my doctrine but the doctrine of your heavenly father and jesus christ. I in the past i have given different aspects of doctrine a litte to sturn..well, probably way to sturn and im sorry if it came of mean. I know none of you will believe this but i love all of you. no i do not know you personaly but i know that when one has love in his heart he can do nothing but love his fellow brothers and sisters. I just want you guys more then anything to make it to the cesestial kingdom the place im trying realy hard to go, and i just get pissed off sometimes cause id love to kick the crap out of satan cause he is trying to bring you to where he will be. I hope that never happens and i can see all of you one day in an everlasting peace.
I just really don’t believe that God is all that concerned about race, for one. It’s not about being stern or mean — it’s about whether you believe in a god who is so ridiculously petty as to believe in uniquely human constructs.
This is one place where fortunately, most members are wise enough to say, “I don’t know why things were like that in the history,” but of course, you have members who still think this stuff is completely doctrinal…
andrew s– you are corrrect heavenly father just wants us to get back to him and prove that we will follow him while we live on this earth. Half the people in my family are black im not worried about it cause i love them so much and God loves us 1000 fold well more than that so, yea your right its not on his mind what color you are he’s worried about one thing. moses1:39 “For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortaliy and eternal life of man”. Thats what your father in heaven cares about hes not worried about what your skin color looks like while you live on the earth.
but you still ACTUALLY believe that black people are black because they were neutral in the war in heaven.
Andrew s–yes buddy, but what would i do if i were black. i would be the most rightous person i could possibly be in this life and prove wrong why i was ever given the mark of cain in the first place. The curse was lifted buddy, whatever happened in the preexistence was forgiven and its behind us. This may sound weird but i believe we will all be the same color in the celestial kingdom so color is the least important thing we will ever have to worry about. think about it, if its true and you are valiant on this earth you will return with honor and be a joint heir with heavenly father, thats like equal gods with all your brothers and sisters.
it’s really amazing.
you really DON’T see it at all.
andrew– I do see it buddy and ill be strait.. If i were black id be hurt, pist, betrayed, unloved by heavely father.
You know how I know you don’t get it? Because you say this:
Emphasis added.
Maybe the reason you would be hurt, pissed, betrayed, and unloved would because you’d think it were preposterous that people would be accounting for your race in a narrative of your supposed ill-doing in a previous life!
Maybe the reason you’d have an eternal struggle whether to join and agree would be because if you joined and agreed, you’d be complying with a worldview that would write you to be morally inferior.
jason, I know I’m going to regret asking this, but…
Where exactly did you get the idea that blacks were somehow “less valiant” in the pre-existence? Can you provide some doctrinal sources, quotes, anything?
seth r.–you of all people should know this.. That makes me a little confused. Unless your just asking me about the phrase “less valiant” in which i meant remained nuetral, i did not mean to say less valiant it must have been a slip of the tounge cause they could have been very valiant but maybe just didnt want to fight for anyone that day. idk? But, if your asking me for refrences i would be cool with getting you plenty another day its 3am over here and my eyes are rolling back into my head. tired… but i think you meant the less valieant thing right??
andrew– you or any other black person was never inferior and i hope my words didnt sound like i was say that. I was telling the truth that it would be hard for me cause i would feel less then all the peter the priesthoods, not because i would be black but because i always wanted to be great in heaven and even now i feel like a nobody and no matter how valient i am im only 1 in trillions and trillions. No one believes black are inferior i know i dont. But if you dont think im getting it or i dont understand would you write and tell me whats on your mind and what your thinking. Maybe if i understood a little better where your comming from i could be more supportive to your feelings on the issue. Im about to go to bed its past 3 over here in louisiana but i will look for a comment from you, if you dont want to thats fine but i wish you would and ill look for it tommorrow bud. good night
Yup. References to actual quotes.
Seth,
I can’t speak for Jason, but I had the idea mainly from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, e.g., JFS in Doctrines of Salvation:
It wasn’t until I became an “internet Mormon” that I found out that I wasn’t required to accept such nonsense as part of the package of being Mormon.
Seth, you’re a glutton for punishment. You know jason is just going to come back with the same old quotes from church leaders. I’d even be willing to bet you’ll get a reference to Mormon Doctrine, because, you know, it’s mormon doctrine.
Yeah, I remember those two being fans of the idea. I’ve got a few modern quotes that pretty much counteract them, but if jason is going to hold these views and represent them as the Mormon position, then I simply feel like he ought to be able to demonstrate where he personally is getting them from.
@Jason – I find your comment “No one believes black are inferior i know i dont” very interesting. I was born in 1951 so spent a lot of years dealing with the “Blacks and the Priesthood” issue. It always bothered me, and I always had a problem accepting the supposed explanations. But the explanations I was given were not the truth. IMO, it was racism, plain and simple. Not only are the writing of Joseph Field Smith and Bruce R. McConkie disparaging of Blacks, but also the words of Brigham Young, Orson Hyde, Mark E. Peterson, to name a few.
One of Brigham Young’s many).
Another Brigham Young quote: You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing of one his brethren [Cain] will be cursed the longest of any children of Adam. . . [T]he Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and the black skin. (Brigham Young, “Journal of Discourses,” vol. 7, 1859 p. 290)
One of Bruce R. McConkie’s quotes: The Negroes are not equal with other races Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned (Bruce R. McConkie, “Mormon Doctrine,” 1966 ed., pp. 527-28).
One of Orson Hyde’s rants: but it came to pass that Ham, the son of Noah, saw the nakedness of his father while he lay drunk in his tent and he with ‘wicked joy,’ ran like Rigdon and made the wonderful disclosure to his brethren; while Shem and Japheth took a garment, with pity and compassion, laid it upon their shoulderswent backwards and covered their father The conduct of the former brought the curse of slavery upon him, while that of the latter secured blessings, jurisdiction, power and dominion information concerning the doctrine of pre-existence. (Orson Hyde, Is There Reason Then Why the Type of Birth We Receive in This Life Is Not in the Accursed Lineage of Canaan; and Hence the Negro or African Race? speech delivered before the High Priests’ Quorum, Nauvoo, Illinois, 27 April 1845).
And one of Mark E. Peterson’s rants: segregation Was segregation a wrong principle? no man bring together again. (Mark E. Peterson, Race Problems as They Affect the Church, address delivered at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, 27 August 1954).
Sorry to ramble on and on, but I find it implausible when people try to say that the Mormon Church was never racist, and that no one ever thought that Blacks are inferior. Naturally, there are people within the Mormon Church who were not, or are not, racist, or who claim not to be or have been, but from Brigham Young’s time on, racism was very clear. And the only reason the Blacks were given the priesthood in 1978 was because if they didn’t change that doctrine and practice, it would have been a disaster money-wise for TSCC since it was being threatened with losing its tax-exempt status for discriminary practices. And one of the strongest pieces of evidence for that fact was that in 1980, Bob Jones University did lose their tax-exempt status because of their discriminatory dating policy. So the timing is spot-on.
I bet that if you were to divide Mormons into three groups, those who 1) know about the old teachings but not the more recent counter-teachings, 2) know about the old teachings and the more recent counter-teachings, and 3) never heard much of anything about the whole subject, 2) would be the smallest group.
My guess would be that 1) probably covers most Mormons over 50 or so, and 3) probably covers most under 30, but 2) probably covers only “internet Mormons.”
@Kuri – interesting breakdown. Being 59, I would be in the #2 group and you say that is probably the smallest group. I find that very sad.
I guess I would be considered an “internet Mormon” who became an ExMormon because I couldn’t rationalize out the lies, deception, cover-ups, contradictions, and discrepancies. How anyone can is beyond me except that sadly there are many Mormons who have absolutely no idea about either the history of the Mormon Church or its actual teachings.
I rationalized all that away for a few years because I thought I’d had spiritual experiences. But as soon as I entertained the possibility that those experiences hadn’t been what I’d thought they were, it was all over.
re 323:
Jason,
You say you don’t believe blacks are or were inferior, but you do believe that blacks were “neutral.” Don’t you think that neutrality in the war in heaven was a morally inferior position to supporting Jesus? Since you believe that blacks were NOT great in heaven, doesn’t that mean they were inferior in heaven?
You still don’t get it. The doctrine that “blacks were neutral in the war in heaven and that’s why they are black” is essentially racist. It is an essentially racist way of calling blacks morally inferior, and of blaming their race on it.
It is an essentially racist way of calling dark skin less desirable — after all, you get dark skin as a curse, or as a result of neutrality, and you get lighter skin as a result of righteousness or obedience.
AND YOU DON’T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH ANY OF THIS!
Not only that, but these doctrines do not exist in a vacuum. The same leaders and apostles and prophets who “taught” these doctrines taught a series of other racially offensive doctrines. See Diane Tingen’s comment #328. For you to believe that “blacks were neutral in heaven” implies that you AGREE with the same beliefs Brigham Young, Bruce McConkie, Orson Hyde, Mark E Peterson, etc., wrote.
That’s why Seth questioned you in comment #321 and 324 to find actual quotes of where you believe these doctrines to be found. Because then we can see what exactly you believe to be authentic, real Mormon doctrine.
And I mean…if you do agree with those guys…if you really DO believe that is correct Mormon doctrine and that the only reason the modern church doesn’t believe these things TODAY is because the church has been “infiltrated” by “gay liberal socialists” and are trying to be politically correct, then whatever! Just state that the church and you believe in essentially racist doctrines and own up to it! Be proud of your racialism and your racism.
@Andrew S. (#332) – Re rour statement that “… these doctrines do not exist in a vacuum.” So true. How anyone can say that the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon Church provide any good to anyone is beyond me. Since the Mormon Church was essentially built on a stack of lies, how can anything good come out of it? the blatant racism is obvious as is so many Mormons ability to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that everything is okay, that they are following the will of God, that they have received spiritual confirmations of the truthfulness of TSCC, that someday they will inherit the Celestial Kingdom and will gain the possibility of becoming Gods. Oh, I know Gordon B. Hinckley said that he doesn’t know if TSCC teaches that, but we all know the truth. Just as GBH said that the Blacks and the Priesthood issue is just a “litte fleck of history” which should be ignored. Those statements, of course, are indicative of just how delusional many Mormons are – and how they buy into everything a “Prophet of God” says, hook line and sinker. How can anyone justify these statements? Just as how can anyone justify so much of what Brigham Young said way back when? Since BY was supposedly a “prophet of God,” what he said supposedly came through inspiration and revelation. But the tendency to discard whatever makes many Mormons uncomfortable wins out every time.
re 333,
Well, Diane, I just don’t think that’s fair.
“How can anyone say that the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon Church provide any good to anyone?”
Quite easily. They encourage service, and they encourage a better lifestyle for many members. The church teaches practical leadership, management and communication skills, not to mention organizational skills.
Just because all of these things are wrapped around shady history or shady doctrines doesn’t negate the potential good that is there.
And I mean, you speak in the end about “the tendency to discard whatever makes Mormons uncomfortable”. Why use this AGAINST Mormons? Why not use it in their favor? If someone can have dynamic doctrine, I’m not really bothered. The problem is that Jason is NOT even up-to-date.
@Andrew S. – I have to say I disagree. When things are built on lies and deception (“shady” as you call it), it follows that whatever comes out of it is negative. Just as the Mormon church itself says that anything built on a shaky foundation cannot stand. Is living a lie a good thing? Is denying your real identity a good thing? Is getting people to be baptized based on subversion and hidden facts a good thing? Is telling your children that something so obviously bogus is actually true a good thing?
Yes, providing service to others is obviously a good thing. But at what cost? Service being done in the name of Mormonism tends to lead people to think that the entire organization is beneficial. But IMO, it is not. Discarding certain doctrines, pretending that they aren’t part of the whole, is detrimental as well since it gives the wrong impression to people who might be seduced into becoming members (not to mention the fact that living a lie is detrimental to a person’s mental well-being).
To me, it’s all or nothing. That’s just the way my brain works. I spent a majority of my life trying to rationalize out the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon Church, but in the end, after finding out the real truth behind Mormon history, I couldn’t rationalize it all out anymore. I truly believe the the higher-ups in SLC know the truth, that TSCC is filled with lies — but they are keeping their mouths shut because they live off the coffers of the church and they don’t want to stop the gravy train.
Harsh? Perhaps. But pretending otherwise is not an option for me anymore.
So, it looks like this discussion hasn’t quite run its course yet — let’s hope it stays relatively calm and level-headed, despite the subject matter.
Since we’re gathering up all of the authoritative quotes, it should also be noted that there is some support for the priesthood ban in the LDS scripture The Pearl of Great Price. First, read Moses 7, especially verses 8 and 22. Then read Abraham 1, verses 21-27.
The chapters are a tad cryptic, but they seem to imply that black skin is a curse, and that it marks a lineage that doesn’t have the right to hold the priesthood. It’s theoretically possible to interpret the passages otherwise, but at least it shows that the whole “Canaan, the son of Ham, received the curse” idea was something Joseph Smith himself condoned and perpetuated.
I agree with Andrew. I mean, I disbelieve the church now because it’s not “true,” but my experience in it was generally positive. It was good for me for quite awhile. I dislike many of its teachings and many aspects of its culture but I don’t think it’s especially horrible. It just isn’t based on any sort of factual reality.
Besides, what institution or ideology isn’t “built on lies and deception (shady as you call it)” to some extent (although I might prefer to call it “mythology” rather than “lies”)? I can’t think of any. So does it follow that whatever comes out of any institution or ideology is entirely negative?
Yes, since Joseph Smith “wrote” the Pearl of Great Price, it is obvious that he not only condoned the racism, but perpetuated it by handing down these “scriptures” for others to glom on to. It’s interesting, though, that under Joseph Smith, the priesthood ban was never enforced – he seemed to leave that for Brigham Young to do. I often wonder what would have happened if Joseph Smith had not died in Carthage, and had actually gone West with the “Saints.” Since no new scripture (other than a little bit in the D&C) was added after his death, his penchant for “creating doctrine” was obliterated at his passing. Of course, since Mormons believe that living Prophets receive revelation and relay “God’s Will,” it could be argued that this “creation of doctrine” has continued even though most of that has not been “canonized.” I think Joseph Smith’s “translation” of the BoA served a very definite purpose for him, though, and that was giving scriptural backing to his practice of polygamy. The whole Black and the Priesthood thing seems to have been just thrown in for extra measure.
re 335,
Diane,
I don’t think it’s the case at all that a shady foundation or something built on deception and lies will only lead to negative.
Christmas stories built around Santa Claus are built on deception and lies, but they lead to the improvement of behavior from children. At the very least, they create a fun holiday for the family to be together for.
In fact, most things in society are built on deception and lies, but they are “practical” lies. They achieve some kind of social cohesive goal. So, we know “myths” that nearly EVERY country has national and cultural myths, for example. “Lies and deception” at the foundation of their histories.
To answer your questions:
For most people, living a lie IS a good thing. It’s called being aspirational. (I am not the person I want to be…but I’m going to live as if I am and hold myself up to those standards and expectations.) For most people, they aren’t DENYING their real identity. In fact, for most people, believing that they are a child of a personal, caring God (whether it is true or not) gives them meaning and value in their life.
Furthermore, many of the problems you list only occur if you don’t believe or if you have problems with certain doctrines. MOST members do not.
Emphasis added. You point out one extreme: “The entire organization is beneficial.” You hold the other extreme, “The entire organization is harmful.” You say it’s because to you, it’s all or nothing.
But it simply doesn’t have to be that way. MOST THINGS IN LIFE ARE GRAY. Very few things are “all” or “nothing.” So, to look at things as either being all good or no good, all bad or no bad ignores the immense amount of nuance in EVERYTHING.
By negative, I mean that the lies (and I mean lies) perpetuated by the Mormon Church create misguided people, and when there are misguided people, the possibility of there being even more misguided people becomes very likely. IMO, ignoring the fact that the Mormon Church is based on lies and deception is simply not wise – and saying that there are some good things that come out of it is like trying to say that all that is okay.
For a religious organization that supposedly values integrity and honesty, and holds that premise out to the world, it is particularly contradictory that most of the doctrine and teachings were made up out of thin air by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others. And the higher-ups today have simply carried on that legacy.
I’m not saying that all Mormons are bad people. Far from it. But that’s what makes the whole thing even more despicable. Good people carrying forth the lies of Mormonism. That’s simply wrong.
re 340:
Diane,
Couldn’t we say that since you see things as “all or nothing”, that you are a misguided person perpetrating lies and deception, and whenever you try to get other people to see things as “all or nothing”, then you are a good person getting good people to carry for the lies of “all or nothing”?
Or wouldn’t that just be counterintuitive?
@ Andrew S re #339. So the premise is that it’s okay that the Mormon Church lies to and deceives everyone because they do accomplish some good? I agree that there are gray areas in life, but in my opinion, religious doctrine shouldn’t be one of them.
Of course, part of what bothers me is that although some tithing money is used to give service to people in need, the majority of it is used for many other things, such as building the City Creek Mall, the cost of which is now approaching $6 billion dollars (and of course, the lifestyles of the First Presidency and GAs, which includes flying first-class around the world).
And comparing lies told by the Mormon Church (or by any religion) to the legend of Santa Claus? That’s like comparing apples and oranges. It’s an interesting analogy (and definitely entertaining), but IMO, it’s a real stretch to debate those two very extreme areas. When a child reaches the age of, say 10, 11 or so, they discover that Santa Claus is not real – and that is not harmful in the long-run. But discovering after a lifetime of devoting a person’s life to Mormonism that it is built on nothing but lies and deception that have been perpetuated throughout the years is extremely harmful.
@Andrew S – re #341. Yes, I suppose you could say whatever you want to say. To me, though, if a person (or religion) lies to people, then they are clearly citing their character or underlying premise. They are a liar. And I want nothing to do with people (or organizations) that lie not only because they are deceitful but also because the likelihood is that there are many more lies underneath the surface. Integrity is paramount. Lies are destructive.
I think it’s far from clear that the Pearl of Great Price passages have anything to do with race in any significant manner. Armand Mauss pointed this out in an article you can read here:
In relevant portion of that article, Mauss outlines the pre-mortal narrative that jason has outlined of blacks being “less valiant” in the pre-earth life, and black skin being a sign of theological disfavor. Then he writes:
“Neat and coherent as that scenario might seem, the scriptures typically cited in its support cannot be so interpreted unless we start with the scenario itself and project it retrospectively upon the scriptural passages in proof-text fashion. For if we set aside the darkened glass of this contrived scenario, we see that the Book of Abraham says nothing about lineages set aside in the pre-existence, but only about distinguished individuals (Abraham 3:22-24). The Book of Abraham is the only place, furthermore, that any scriptures speak of the priesthood being withheld from any lineage, but even then it is only the specific lineage of the pharoahs of Egypt, and there is no explanation as to why that lineage could not have the priesthood, or whether the proscription was temporary or permanent, or which other lineages, if any, especially in the modern world, would be covered by that proscription (Abraham 1:25-27). (Genesis 9:18-25)! There is no description of the mark on Cain, except that the mark was supposed to protect him from vengeance. It’s true that in the seventh chapter of Moses, we learn that descendants of Cain became black (Moses 7:22), but not until the time of Enoch, six generations after Cain, and even then only in a vision of Enoch about an unspecified future time (Moses 7:2-4). There is no explanation for this blackness; it is not even clear that we are to take it literally.”
Likewise, I see little justification for current racist stances in the Book of Mormon, which I suppose I could get into, but I’ll leave it here for now.
Diane, how many lies are forwarded in the average high school history class every day in the United States?
Does that make America a “nation founded on lies?”
I’m not sure that many church leaders actually lie, if by “lie” you mean “intentionally say things they know not to be true.” Seems to me that the higher up you go, the more strongly the BS is believed. I’m pretty sure they think they’re telling the truth.
And even if it does, is that a useful description? Does it actually tell us anything meaningful about America, i.e., anything that isn’t just as true of every other country?
Diane, anyone who deals with finances knows that dumping money in a bank account is probably the worst investment strategy you could come up with.
So why not dump the investment into real estate, where it can grow and provide a stable interest rate return to fund other worthy endeavors. Especially if in so doing you can stabilize the local city economy of your neighborhood, combat urban blight, create jobs and income, and generally beautify and care for the neighborhood surrounding an important religious site?
And whatever the allegations, the LDS Church has insisted that no tithing funds were spent on that project and no one has provided any credible proof to the contrary.
And furthermore, you are HUGELY off-topic to the discussion (which was already off topic to begin with). The City Creek shopping complex has little or nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Well kuri, that’s my point. The phrase itself simply isn’t useful.
All it really amounts to is a bunch of rhetorical hot air. So you’ll get no disagreement from me on that score.
Come to think of it, for similar reasons, I don’t find the common Sunday School catch phrase of “I know the Church is true” to be useful either.
What does that even mean? |
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Nov. 16: Free CME Event
Common Upper Extremity Problems Seen in the Primary Care Physician’s Office
Primary care physicians, internal medicine physicians and orthopaedic surgeons are invited to join Michael A. Herbenick, M.D., and L. Joseph Rubino III, M.D., for an interactive review of commonly seen upper extremity problems in a free Continuing Medical Education presentation on Wednesday evening, Nov. 16, at Bravo Cucina Italiana, 2770 Miamisburg-Centerville Road.
At the conclusion of this CME program, attendees should be able to:
This event is hosted by Miami Valley Hospital, an institution accredited by the Ohio State Medical Association to sponsor continuing medical education for physicians. Miami Valley Hospital designates this educational activity for a maximum of 1.50 AMA PRA Category 1 Credits™. Physicians should only claim credit commensurate with the extent of their participation in the activity.
Both Dr. Herbenick and Dr. Rubino are certified by the American Board of Orthopaedic Surgery with subspecialty certification in orthopaedic sports medicine. They both serve as assistant professors in the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation at Wright State University Boonshoft School of Medicine, and are orthopaedic consultants for University of Dayton Athletics. Dr. Herbenick serves as orthopaedic surgery residency program director, and Dr. Rubino serves as director of resident education.
Sign-in begins at 5:30 p.m., with the presentation from 6 to 7:30 p.m. Advance registration is required. To register, please contact the CME coordinator at Miami Valley Hospital at (937) 208-3851 or e-mail [email protected].
Oct. 5, 2011, CME Event
Heels to Toes — Treatment of Common Foot Ailments in the Primary Care Setting
Michael D. Barnett Jr., M.D., assistant professor of orthopaedic surgery, presented an interactive review of advancements in foot and ankle pathologies to area physicians and medical experts on Wednesday, Oct. 5, at the Beavercreek Golf Club.
Dr. Barnett is a fellowship-trained orthopaedic surgeon with Wright State Orthopaedic Surgery & Sports Medicine. He earned his medical degree from Wright State University Boonshoft School of Medicine and completed his orthopaedic surgery residency training at Akron General Medical Center. Dr. Barnett is certified by the American Board of Orthopaedic Surgery.
At the conclusion of this Continuing Medical Education program, participants were able to:
This event was hosted by Miami Valley Hospital, an institution accredited by the Ohio State Medical Association to sponsor continuing medical education for physicians.
Ground broken for new medical building at Wright State
Wright State Physicians broke ground Tuesday, June 21, on a new medical office building on the Wright State University campus. The new building will offer a full array of physician care, including orthopaedic and sports medicine specialties. Wright State Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation is partnering with Wright State Physicians, Boonshoft School of Medicine and the local community to help area athletes enhance performance while preventing and treating injury as well as to further translational research. Read the news release.
WSU hosts Ohio Orthopaedic Research & Innovation Day!
Wright State University hosted an Ohio Orthopaedic Research and Innovation Day on June 2, 2011. The free event brought together engineers and orthopaedic clinicians and researchers to exchange ideas and foster innovation in orthopaedic devices and spur economic development in Ohio.
Tarun Goswami, D.Sc., of the Department of Biomedical, Industrial & Human Factors Engineering in the WSU College of Engineering and Computer Science, and Richard T. Laughlin, M.D., of the Boonshoft School of Medicine’s Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation, expressed hope that the forum would help develop strong academic and industry partnerships within the state.
Department featured in WSP newsletter
Wright State Physicians featured WSU Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation in its Winter 2011 newsletter. Read the article here.
Sports Symposium held
Area athletic trainers, coaches and primary care physicians attended a Wright State Orthopaedics Sports Symposium July 9, 2010, at Wright State University.
Presentations covered:
- ACL Tears
- Platelet Rich Plasma
- Concussions
- Cervical Spine Trauma
- Rehabilitation of Patellofemoral Stress Syndrome and Insidious Onset Anterior Knee Pain
Wright State undergrads get up-close view of knee surgery
The grinding whir of bone saws and drills filled the air as orthopedic surgeon Matthew W. Lawless, M.D., demonstrated knee-replacement surgery on a set of synthetic bones. Then came the real thing - a taped video of an actual knee operation. All eyes in the class of 50 students were drilled into the screen, watching the flurry of action as clamps, forceps, a chisel and a suction tube worked their surgical magic.
The WSU biomedical engineering class, more than half pre-med students, is taught by Tarun Goswami, D.Sc., who holds a joint appointment in the College of Engineering and Computer Science and the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation. Dr. Lawless, assistant professor of orthopaedic surgery, was peppered with questions from the students following the video.
"Orthopedics is the one discipline where you have the merger of biomedical engineering and surgery," Dr. Goswami said."What I'm trying to do is connect my students with the surgery field so they see what the surgeons are doing and how we can improve the surgical procedures, the instruments, the devices."
- Read more in this news release from Wright State University.
Neck injuries focus of major Wright State research effort
The Spine Research Group in the WSU Department of Biomedical, Industrial and Human Factors Engineering is conducting major cervical-spine research under the direction of Tarun Goswami, D.Sc., who holds a joint appointment in the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation within the Boonshoft School of Medicine. Other group members include medical students Matthew Binkley and Kelly Estes and orthopaedic surgery resident Chris Gayton, M.D., who is looking into the biomechanics of the spine.
- Read more in this news release from Wright State University.
April 2010
Joint Venture - Orthopaedic Trauma
Matthew J. Di Paola, M.D., met with Michael J. Prayson, M.D., to discuss his orthopaedic trauma service at 30 East Apple Street, Suite 2200 in Miami Valley Hospital. Dr. Prayson serves as professor, vice chair, and Orthopaedic Trauma Fellowship director for Wright State Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation. To schedule an appointment with Dr. Prayson, please call (937) 208-2091.
Q: Thanks for meeting with me today to discuss your role in orthopaedic trauma for Joint Ventures. Why don't you start by telling us how you became interested in orthopaedic trauma?
A: Trauma is an intriguing subspecialty because it encompasses a wide variety of injuries - from head to toe. Back in residency training, I had an interest in orthopaedic trauma and decided to pursue additional training in the form of a fellowship. This was an extra year spent focusing on traumatic injuries and related complications. I discovered that I really enjoyed the subspecialty. It is challenging. It can be difficult at times and it keeps you on your toes. I've been doing it for approximately 15 years now in practice and still have a keen interest in staying involved.
Q: Describe some of the challenges of orthopaedic trauma you find on a daily basis.
A: Some of it has to do with volume. We happen to be a very busy trauma center here at Miami Valley Hospital in Dayton, and the volume can sometimes be very difficult to manage. Some would even think of it as overwhelming at times. So that can be challenging on busy days where you're trying to manage multiple patients who come in, sometimes arriving at the hospital in very close proximity to each other. You have to be intimately involved in the process and prioritize the care and management of all polytraumatized patients. Certain types of injuries we treat are also quite complex. Most notable for trauma surgeons are injuries of the pelvis and the hip ball-and-socket joint (acetabulum). Not many orthopaedic surgeons have an interest or proficiency in taking care of those injuries. Additionally, complex injuries such as significantly damaged joints, infections in bone and bones that don't heal the first time around are some of the particular complexities that we face as orthopaedic trauma subspecialists.
Q: What do you find most gratifying about being an orthopaedic trauma surgeon?
A: With trauma, you see very active, very functional people sustain serious injuries and their ability to function changes dramatically. You take them through the process of the initial surgery - but that is only a small part of it. You follow them through afterwards and see their progress and their return to their daily lives and near normal function, and that, I think, is very, very gratifying.
Q: Do you treat specific types of cases more commonly than the average orthopaedic surgeon or do you take a particular interest within trauma? Are there particular areas of the body that you see more commonly?
A: I think for the most part all orthopaedic surgeons are qualified to handle fractures - that's the basis of what we do in orthopaedic surgery. But as a traumatologist, I think your ability to handle more complex fractures - ones that are more splintered, ones that involve the joint surfaces and some areas that I mentioned before, like the pelvic and acetabular regions - certainly those types of injuries fall in the lap of the orthopaedic traumatologist just based on his or her training and proficiency in dealing with those types of fractures.
Q: You attended the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons annual meeting in March. Why is attending that meeting important?
A: The Academy meeting is a large international meeting. It's one of the best-attended meetings of orthopaedic surgeons across the world, and it's a great opportunity for us to get together and focus on the latest research in our field. We have several opportunities throughout the year to do that, and this happens to be one of those meetings where we get that opportunity. Second, Specialty Day is one of the focused opportunities during the meeting. This is one full day devoted to each of the orthopaedic subspecialties and for me that's obviously trauma. There's a chance to get together, meet up with your colleagues in your subspecialty from across the nation and across the world and catch up on how things are going at other trauma centers and what people are doing to advance trauma care.
Q: Dr. Prayson, what does a typical week look like for you?
A: I take a fair amount of the trauma call here, usually about six or seven days per month. Outside of the trauma call structure, on Mondays I'm in the operating room all day performing surgeries. Tuesday we have a clinic that Miami Valley Hospital sponsors that provides care to the uninsured and underinsured - more so than any other hospital in Dayton - and I'm heavily involved in staffing that clinic. Tuesday afternoon is an open time, which I use for surgeries, meetings or research. Wednesday is another surgery day. Thursday I see patients all day in our Wright State Orthopaedic Surgery office at Miami Valley Hospital in Suite 2200. On Fridays, I am back in the operating room for more surgery. On the weekends, a lot of it depends on the trauma call schedule. This weekend for example, I am on call Friday and Sunday so I will be here most of the weekend performing surgeries and rounding on patients in the hospital.
Q: Thank you, Dr. Prayson for taking the time to discuss your area of expertise within our department.
March 2010
Joint Venture - Foot & Ankle
Matthew J. Di Paola, M.D., sat down with Richard T. Laughlin, M.D., to discuss his foot and ankle service at 30 East Apple Street, Suite 2200 in Miami Valley Hospital. Dr. Laughlin serves as professor, chair, residency program director, and foot and ankle service director for Wright State Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation. To schedule an appointment with Dr. Laughlin, please call (937) 208-2091.
Q: Dr. Laughlin, thanks for joining me to kick off our new series - Joint Venture. Joint Venture is going to be a regular communication between our department's surgeons and the community at large. It will provide a more intimate look at what we do on a daily basis and how we think about some of the issues that face us daily. The term Joint Venture is a bit of a play on words in the sense that, we as orthopedic surgeons, treat joint-related problems and endeavor to do so in a combined - or joint - decision-making process with our patients. This process is critical as it underscores the true partnership necessary for the surgeon-patient relationship to function effectively.
You recently became chairman of the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation. Tell us some of your new and unique responsibilities compared to your previous department role.
A: Obviously, being chairman, you take on more administrative duties. The most important part of my job is developing a vision for the department's future. I've been with the department since 1994 and have seen its growth, which gives me a better perspective for charting a course for the future.
Q: The world is becoming more specialized in general and so is medicine - and orthopaedics. Tell us how you got interested in foot and ankle and what drew you to specialize in that.
A: As a resident in the late '80s and early '90s, I didn't have a lot of foot and ankle training - I had an interest in trauma. I noted as we followed up with patients that a lot of the trauma patients had residual foot and ankle problems that were quite debilitating. Often they recovered from their other injuries, while their foot injuries remained a limiting factor to getting them back to full function. I also watched a few orthopaedic surgeons who concentrated on trauma gravitate towards foot and ankle as they got older, which triggered my interest. As I've grown in my career, I've realized quite a lot of foot and ankle problems go untreated - mainly deformity cases such as flat feet or forefoot deformities. Often patients are told nothing can be done for their deformities, so there's a great opportunity to treat these patients. It's become a niche within orthopaedics because the rest of the field has grown so much. Now with joint replacements, surgeons can completely focus their practice in that area without having to deal with foot and ankle.
Q: Is a general orthopaedist able to handle foot and ankle issues, or are there unique anatomic aspects that make it more complex or give you an advantage in specialization?
A: Probably more so than any other spot on the body, the foot is susceptible to many complications - wound healing problems and the swelling that impedes people from getting back into a shoe. With a lot of experience in treating these issues, you can avoid a lot of these complications with good end results.
Q: What is your general patient care philosophy? How do you approach surgical discussions with patients? What do you want them to know before treating a problem operatively or non-operatively?
A: With the foot - this sounds very obvious - but people have to walk. So anything you do to the foot is going to impede their mobility. It is extremely important for patients to understand their underlying pathology or problem. Second, patients must take an active role in their care. The first time I see a patient, I explain their specific problem and get them to start a foot exercise program, possibly some type of shoe modification, or other efforts to make them more comfortable. This helps them to start understanding what is involved in their treatment. With surgery, I think it's really important to educate them on what they can expect after surgery, the length of recovery time and how that's going to affect their daily life.
Q: How important is that pre-operative discussion in their overall patient care? Do you find patients come in with certain expectations that change over time? Is it an educational process?
A: The hardest part is telling patients the magnitude of their specific problem. In general, patients understand - like if someone has knee arthritis and they need a knee replacement, patients generally understand that. That's usually the focus of our discussion. I try to explain their specific problem, but I also spend a lot of time telling them what to expect after surgery. I think patients really need to know how long it's going to take to recover from surgery and what their recovery milestones will be: When can they put weight on their foot? When can they get back to work? When can they get back into a shoe? And, of course, How long do they have to use crutches, a walker or other ambulatory aid? Obviously, these are important milestones that impact their daily life a lot more than someone who has hand surgery or upper extremity surgery who can still walk while protecting their upper extremity.
Q: How many days per week do you operate and see patients in the clinic?
A: I see patients twice a week on Mondays and Wednesdays in our office at Miami Valley Hospital. I spend half a day weekly in an MVH-run multidisciplinary wound clinic and the rest of the time - Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays - I perform surgeries at Miami Valley Hospital or Far Hills Surgical Center.
Q: Thank you for your time, Dr. Laughlin. I appreciate the time spent discussing your specialty and hope people have a better idea of your clinical focus and where to find you. |
I'll be just slightly tentative in this post, since I do not have a transcript of Eugenie Scott's speech at Dragon*Con yesterday (Sunday), and nor did I take notes, other than mental ones. If anyone else who was present wishes to clarify a point, then that is welcome. Still, I think I have a reasonable impression of the points that were made.
To be fair to her, the speech consisted mainly of an attack on Intelligent Design theory, claiming that it is not scientific. I more or less agree with this, though not necessarily for precisely the same reasons. For me, it's enough that ID theory has no genuine research program, is contrived to reach a predetermined outcome, and therefore lacks the very rigorous standards of intellectual honesty that we expect of scientists, etc. It is more like legal advocacy than science - it attempts to put the most persuasive case for a conclusion that is decided in advance. There's nothing wrong with that, in its place, but it's not science. ID's conclusions can in no way be characterised as conclusions with scientific credibility, and the claim that they are can never be relied upon by a public school system that wishes to teach them or to offer them as an alternative to genuine evolutionary biology.
That, however, is not how Scott put it. Still, she must be given credit for what she was trying to do, and she did make some similar points in her own way.
In any event, it was the first part of the speech that worried me. This emphasised the claim that science (Scott said "science", not "reason") is only on way of knowing. The others that she mentioned were personal insight and authority (I don't think she was saying that these three are the only "ways of knowing"). She appeared to be happy to count all sorts of ideas gained from personal insight, perhaps assisted by rituals or drugs, as "knowledge", which is rather odd, since knowledge is, at the least, justified belief. She counted revelation, including the words of holy books, as a sub-set of authority, and explained that the problem is when empirical claims are based on revelation.
Scott also said that science is a limited way of knowing because it can only investigate natural phenomena and can only offer natural explanations for them, and so cannot deal with supernatural claims. She offered no argument for this claim. Indeed, she gave an example of scientific study of truth claims that appeared to refute it. This was a description of a controlled experiment to see whether people really can perform better than chance at dowsing for water. Clearly, if the claim "I can perform better than chance at dowsing for water" is refuted by scientific investigation, it follows, a fortiori, that the claim "I can perform better than chance at dowsing for water by using supernatural means" is also refuted.
The fact is that science has reached a point where it is bad form for scientists to postulate supernatural explanations for phenomena. This is mainly because such explanations have such an unimpressive historical track record (think of preformationist theories of reproduction that depend on an original divine miracle to create an infinite set of tiny homunculi within homunculi, or of diluvian theories of geology that explain rock formation in terms of Noah's flood). So-called "methodological naturalism" is a useful rule of thumb adopted by modern science, and a contemporary scientist who did not adopt it when postulating causes would now be laughed at by colleagues.
However, there is no reason why science cannot offer supernatural explanations. In earlier times, reputable scientists often did this; methodological naturalism was never essential to the definition of "science". Moreover, although modern scientists are (quite correctly) unwilling to postulate supernatural explanations, that does not mean that they are unable to test supernatural explanations when postulated by others. The fact that supernatural explanations have a poor record when tested is (at least part of) the reason why scientists are now so unwilling to postulate them.
Scott's speech was rather long, with no time for questions. It went down well with the audience, and much of its content justified this, but I'd have liked to have seen some challenges to its simplistic claims about scientific epistemology. (She told people with a background in this area of philosophy to "deal [with it]", since she could not give all the detail, but that is hardly satisfactory.)
Alas, none of the speech acknowledged that the problems created by religious thinking - and the acceptance of religious leaders, religious organisations, and holy books as having authority - go FAR beyond those caused when empirical claims are based on scriptural revelation. Of course, those are the problems that Scott is required to deal with at the NCSE, but they are far from the only ones or necessarily the most important ones. Any suggestion that they are is most unfortunate.."
I know that many rational people don't like the implied comparison of religion, or of particular religions, to Nazism, or the suggestion that goodwilled folks such as Eugenie Scott are selling out to something as evil as Nazism. Nazism was and is a particularly vicious quasi-religious belief system.
But the great organised religions are, collectively, a bigger problem than Nazism these days. When a religious organisation such as the Catholic Church is welcomed as an ally of the cause of reason merely because it takes the right side on one issue, that looks like a form of appeasement. The Vatican hierarchs are not our allies merely because they don't oppose evolutionary theory. The Vatican is the same organisation that teaches that the use of the contraceptive pill, masturbation, homosexual acts, etc., are all very serious "sins". It is anti-rational and authoritarian.
It doesn't hesitate to try to get the coercive power of the state to ban whichever of these "sins" it can, wherever and whenever it can. It is a kind of opportunistic predator in that respect. Most recently, RU-486 was legalised in Italy only in the face of strong Vatican opposition. The Catholic Church continually does all it can to interfere in personal decisions about how we live our lives, and especially about bioethical issues at the beginning and end of life. It does not merely preach its benighted moral views to the faithful, but tries to get governments to enshrine those views in legislation, thus getting them imposed on us by force.
In short, the Catholic Church is a far greater menace to our liberties than a bunch of American fundamentalists whose immediate goal is to undermine the teaching of biological evolution in American schools. Of course, organisations such as the Discovery Institute have a much broader theocratic agenda, but this is precisely what Eugenie Scott will never criticise them for. The only problem, apparently, is that they make empirical claims based in scriptural revelation.
No, that is not the only problem, or the greatest problem. The far larger problem is the epistemic, moral, and above all political authority claimed by many religious organisations. This most definitely includes the Catholic Church, which Scott obviously sees as an ally - even employing a Catholic priest to head the NCSE's faith outreach program.
I am not suggesting that the NCSE enlarge its remit to attack religion more generally. That is not its raison d'etre at all. But it can be neutral about such questions as whether science undermines a large amount of religious thinking, far beyond the claims of creationism and Intelligent Design. It can stop relying on an unnecessarily narrow (and very dubious) view of scientific epistemology, designed to leave as much authority with religion as possible. It can stop selling Gould's intellectually bankrupt principle of Non-Overlapping Magisteria on its website.
It's a pity that Scott's talk left no time to debate any of this. Perhaps next year the Dragon*Con organisers will provide space in their program for challenges to the more dubious and dangerous epistemological claims that Scott was trying to sell to us yesterday. Maybe Jerry Coyne would be a good speaker for next year. Put your hand up, Jerry.
38 comments:
Maybe Russell Blackford would be a good speaker? ;)
P.S. Russell, hope you didn't a dodgy email for some website from my email account. Sunday morning it appears my account was used to spam a message all over the shop. I think I've fixed the problem. Sorry if you got the email.
Yeah, I did get it. But don't worry; these things happen in our modern networked lives.
.'"
The problem with this idea of appeasement is that it suggests that the NCSE is somehow offering an exchange, letting religious organizations have their way on other issues provided that they accept evolution. However, as you yourself pointed out, it's not as if the NCSE would be expected to engage in the fight over RU-486, etc., in the first place, and it isn't getting in the way of such fights, either.
So where is the analogue to letting the Germans conquer the Sudetenland?
You need to understand that Eugenie is a *very* traditional American biological anthropologist, with training in "other forms of understanding" and cultural relativism...
How did I know that JJ would turn up here to ask a question that I've already answered? I must have used some supernatural method.
Well, some things never change. :)
A worrying report.
Something struck me after reading this post....
"The Vatican hierarchs are not our allies merely because they don't oppose evolutionary theory."
Isn't there perhaps something mistaken about the obsession with the teaching of evolution if it is approached this way? If there are alliances with organisations like the Catholic Church, isn't that winning one battle (evolution), but conceding defeat in so many other areas? If this is NOMA, the magisterium of science and reason is small indeed.
"How did I know that JJ would turn up here to ask a question that I've already answered?"
You didn't answer it very well. When Chamberlain appeased the Nazis, there was a clear attempt at an exchange: The Germans would be allowed to take the Sudetenland, and in exchange, the Germans would not attempt to conquer any more territory. Here the supposed exchange is muddier:
"You can have all the authority you want (to lobby for banning of RU-486 or whatever your latest problem is) as long as you don't oppose the teaching of evolution."
The NCSE isn't in the business of opposing religious organizations' attempts to push their moralities, so it's not as if their not engaging in business that they wouldn't engage in anyway could be much of a term of an exchange. Nor is the NCSE in much of a position to let or not let religious organizations have authority on anything. This doesn't correspond very well to not interfering with the conquest of the Sudetenland.
Steve Zara: "If there are alliances with organisations like the Catholic Church, isn't that winning one battle (evolution), but conceding defeat in so many other areas?"
But who is conceding defeat here? Letting other organizations fight the Vatican on RU-486, condoms, etc. is hardly a concession.
As did Steve Zara, I found the report somewhat troubling. The NSCE seems to increasingly take on the charateristics of a political organization (which I suppose actually is its major purpose) in that it seeks to accomodate the views of groups like the Catholic Church in order to win support for what the NSCE sees as its larger goals. Hence, making nice with an organization that (sort of) accepts the accuracy and importance of evolution, but which also promulgates the most outrageous lies on other subjects of a scientific nature (the effectiveness of condoms in preventing transmission of HIV, for instance). This sort of realpolitic may be ultimately productive and useful, but it sure is hard to lie back and "think of the Empire" while is is being done.
On the subject of NOMA: I have never understood the argument that supernatural claims are "outside the scope" of science. Science is a means of exploring the observable universe. If a particular "supernatural" claim does not affect something in the observable universe, then of course such a claim is "outside the scope" of science. However, it seems to me that such claims are ususally trivial, and, on a practical level, don't really matter to anyone. Most of the "supernatural" claims that anyone cares about are the those that posit some "supernatural" effect on the observable universe, and as such are the legitimate subject of science.
Even the so-called "Big Questions" can be amenable to scientific exploration. The claim that there exits an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent diety, that actively intervenes with some frequency in the observable universe, is in essence falsified each time a study fails to find a correlation between intercessory prayer and medical outcomes, or an actuarial study fails to find that the godly have fewer fatal accidents than do atheists, and so on.
Of course, such an outlook would be politically inconvenient for the NSCE, as it implicitly requires the proponents of religion to provide evidence for their claims to justify the belief that they are true.
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Tom Coward, the NCSE is an organization that is specifically about "working to keep evolution in public school science education." Despite its name, it was never meant to advocate on behalf of a wide range of scientific issues the way that, say, the AAAS does. It has always been about the creation-evolution conflict. The NCSE isn't silent about "the effectiveness of condoms in preventing transmission of HIV" in exchange for favorable religious views on evolution. It is silent on the matter because it is not on their turf, and it isn't stopping the organizations for which such a matter is on their turf from having their say.
Normally one doesn't find such anti-Catholic bigotry outside of a Jack Chick tract.
If the RCC opposes abortion or RU-486 it is out of a desire to protect human life and dignity and to prevent what CS Lewis referred to as the "abolition of man".
(BTW, from a purely Darewinian". Ironic, no?)
The RCC also opposes euthanasia for the same reason. So it is ironic that you should compare them to the Nazis. Years before they began killing Jews the Nazis insituted a Darwinian eugenics program that killed the mentally and physically handicapped ("life unworthy of life"). The new eugenics will have even more powerful tools at its disposal, which it wil use without hesitation once we have achieved the "total eclipse of all values" predicted by Nietzsche.
Unlike the Nazis,the RCC considers all human life to be worthy of life, whether too young to defend itself, too handicapped to provide for itself, or too old to be considered "useful". All human life is sacred.
It is also why the RCC opposes the death penalty and is in favor of uber-liberal social programs to help the poor and needy. In regards to social programs, the RCC is further left than any American liberal.
Furthermore, the RCC has as much right as any other issues group to lobby the government, organize protests or instruct its membership on behalf of its views and beliefs. Don't agree with what the RCC to be a sin? Fine, don't be a Catholic.
Nobody is forcing you to join.
I eagerly await you next post on the evil conspiracies and machinations of the Jesuits.
Anonymous: "from a purely Darewinian [sic]'."
Some XKCD for you:
There are a couple things that you are overlooking:
1) The societies that embrace abortion and birth control are generally the more prosperous ones. Fewer children are born, yes, but those fewer children have far better odds of survival than children from a large (and probably religious) family in a Third World country.
2) Atheism doesn't have to spread by parents passing down their beliefs to their children. Religious believers can deconvert as well. Also, children don't even have to accept the religion of their parents, and they are increasingly not accepting their parents' faith.
"Don't agree with what the RCC to be a sin? Fine, don't be a Catholic.
Nobody is forcing you to join."
You appear to have missed the "Vatican opposition to secular legislation" problem, which was, as it happens, the very point RB was making. By attempting to influence my government on such issues as RU-486 they are, in fact, trying to force me to join.
CW-
Indeed. The Vatican is a political organisation. Allying with the Catholic Church is a political act that implies tolerance of their political goals.
"By attempting to influence my government on such issues as RU-486 they are, in fact, trying to force me to join."
So does every other political organization with an agenda and a goal of changing society, whether they be Greens, Libertarians, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, or the RCC.
So what is your point? That it is OK for secular religious groups to advance their view of society, but not religious groups?
"The societies that embrace abortion and birth control are generally the more prosperous ones."
You have cause and effect backwards. Prosperity preceeds declining birth rates, not the other way around.
However, those societies with below replacement level TFRs will be top heavy in pensioners as the age demographics shift into the "gray zone". Geezers do two things:
1. consume a great deal of accumulated and produced capital (mostly in the form of health care and pensions both public and private) while not producing any wealth, and
2.vote with a vengence.
God help any politican who even thinks about limiting benefits to old Americans once the Boomers begin to retire enmasse.
We Boomers are going to be a crushing financial and tax burden on the younger generation. And we will be the biggest voting block. Econmic growth isn't sustainable under these conditions.
"Religious believers can deconvert as well."
Conversion isn't just one way. Those raised as atheists can also embrace religion (the son of Madyln Murray O'Hare being a famous example). For the most part however, children adopt their parents memes and seldom reject them permanently or totally.
The conversion rate of religious to athesit is simply not large enough to compensate for the latter's inability to breed.
So what is your point? That it is OK for secular religious groups to advance their view of society, but not religious groups?
Anyone should be able to advance their view of society providing it is based on evidence and reason, and not on the theological gang-warfare of religion, where the arguments reduce to "No, Got told ME what is true!"
If a religious person wishes to advance a view using the same standards of debate as anyone else, there should be no restriction on that.
"So what is your point? That it is OK for secular religious groups to advance their view of society, but not religious groups?"
No, that is not the point at all. The church may do as it pleases. The NCSE, however, should not be embracing the church simply because they happen to be in agreement (more or less) on one very narrow issue.
I would have thought that it was perfectly clear in the original: "When a religious organisation such as the Catholic Church is welcomed as an ally of the cause of reason merely because it takes the right side on one issue, that looks like a form of appeasement."
CW: "When a religious organisation such as the Catholic Church is welcomed as an ally of the cause of reason merely because it takes the right side on one issue, that looks like a form of appeasement. [emphasis added]"
Ok, and when a religious organisation such is welcomed as an ally on the cause of working to keep evolution in public school science education because it takes the right side on that cause, what does it look like then?
Oh, "Anonymous," you might be interested in this post on the Friendly Atheist blog: "Atheist Demographic Growth Stable".?
Hand up! (I hope I don't have to wear a nurse's uniform . .. .)
"The societies that embrace abortion...".
CW: "Are you suggesting that 'the cause of working to keep evolution in public school science education' is somehow not the cause of reason?"
Yes. Mind you that keeping the theory of evolution in public schools can certainly help.
CW:"Or are you suggesting that in the interest of that one very narrow battlefield in the fight for reason we should just abandon the rest of the war?"
No, I'm suggesting that it is nonsense to call what the NCSE does "appeasement."
"I'm suggesting that it is nonsense to call what the NCSE does "appeasement."
Appeasement: The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace.
I'm afraid I don't see how this is "nonsense". When, as a matter of strategy, an atheist like Scott espouses NOMA or a national science education agency embraces the Catholic church, well appeasement seems rather the exact term.
CW: "Appeasement: The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace."?
Another thing. As a supposed act of appeasement, NOMA.
But that assumes that the Catholic Church is seen by the NCSE as a potential enemy.
It should be. Any group promoting education about science should not be associated with an organisation that lies about the science of AIDS, about?
They lend them credibility.
By the way, I was reminded of this this great site again today:
ferouscranus.htm
Steve Zara: "If an organisation is labelled as promoting science, it is assumed that this is what it supports, even if it happens to be focussing on one particular aspect of science."
Which does not mean that the NCSE is going to comment on every bit of bad science that there is, especially when they have their hands full just dealing with creation?
Steve Zara: "They lend them credibility.".
By the way, I was reminded of this this great site again today:
ferouscranus.htm
If I were "utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas," I wouldn't have written a mea culpa not too long ago.
Seriously, what do you expect the NCSE to do?
I'm about to blog about this.
After all the recent controversy, and especially after this excellent post by Russell, I'll tell you what I would like the NCSE to do.
Nothing at all. Literally nothing.
Struggling to make an impact on the matter of the teaching of evolution while making all kinds of controversial concessions to religion in other areas of reason seems pretty much a waste of effort to me.
Oh, "Anonymous," you might be interested in this post on the Friendly Atheist blog: "Atheist Demographic Growth Stable".
I'd think you'd be interested in the fact that the article in question references unscientific surveys that suffer from confusion of terms (hint: non-religious =! atheist)..
Besides, there was another group that tried to rely exclusively on memetic reproduction instead of genetic. They were called the Shakers.
They aren't around any more.
Anonymous: "I'd think you'd be interested in the fact that the article in question references unscientific surveys"
If you think that ARIS and the Pew surveys are unscientific, then you are pretty clueless on the matters that we are discussing.
On another matter ... NOMA concept, I'd say that this was fair..
Anonymous:
You're determined not to be taken seriously, aren't you?
Pay attention:
Many atheists do choose to have children. Those that don't are not necessarily incapable.
Furthermore, atheists are the same species as theists. They can, and sometimes do, interbreed. facts with...well...I wouldn't want to go so far as calling anything you've said in this thread a "point".
You should feel really stupid for needing all that explained to you.
"BTW, from a purely Darewinian point of view which society is superior and more succesful: one that embraces abortion and birth control, or one that does not?"
It depends, are the populations limited to islands? Chatham islanders, before being wiped out by the Maori, engaged in infant castration to prevent the population from outstripping the island's resources.
Easter islanders, on the other hand, did no such thing and suffered a huge population crash in the 19th century after decades of overfishing, over-hunting, and non-sustainable agriculture..
-Dan L.
No offence, Jerry, but I think Margaret Downey looks better in the nurse's uniform than you would. |
The European Miracle
[This essay originally appeared as "The Theory of Economic Development and the European Miracle" in The Collapse of Development Planning, edited by Peter J. Boettke.]
Among writers on economic development, P.T. Bauer is noted both for the depth of his historical knowledge, and for his insistence on the indispensability of historical studies in understanding the phenomenon of growth (Walters 1989, 60; see also Dorn 1987). In canvassing the work of other theorists, Bauer has complained of their manifest "amputation of the time dimension":
The historical background is essential for a worthwhile discussion of economic development, which is an integral part of the historical progress of society. But many of the most widely publicized writings on development effectively disregard both the historical background and the nature of development as a process. (Bauer 1972, 324–25)
Too many writers in the field have succumbed to professional overspecialization combined with a positivist obsession with data that happen to be amenable to mathematical techniques. The result has been models of development with little connection to reality:
Abilities and attitudes, mores and institutions, cannot generally be quantified in an illuminating fashion.… Yet they are plainly much more important and relevant to development than such influences as the terms of trade, foreign exchange reserves, capital output ratios, or external economies, topics which fill the pages of the consensus literature. (Ibid., 326)
Even when a writer appears to approach the subject historically, concentration on quantifiable data to the neglect of underlying institutional and social-psychological factors tends to foreshorten the chronological perspective and thus vitiate the result:
It is misleading to refer to the situation in eighteenth -and nineteenth-century Europe as representing initial conditions in development. By then the west was pervaded by the attitudes and institutions appropriate to an exchange economy and a technical age to a far greater extent than south Asia today. These attitudes and institutions had emerged gradually over a period of eight centuries. (Ibid., 219–20)[1]
At the root of the approach criticized by Bauer there appears to be a methodological holism that prefers to manipulate aggregates while ignoring individual human actors and the institutions their actions generate. Yet, "differences in people's capacities and attitudes and in their institutions are far-reaching and deepseated and largely explain differences in economic performance and in levels and rates of material progress" (Ibid., 313–14; emphasis added).
Bauer's critique thus draws attention to the need to study both the centuries of European history antedating the Industrial Revolution and "the interrelationships between social, political, and legal institutions" in that period (Ibid., 277).[2] Here his assessment links up with an impressive body of scholarship that has emerged in recent years emphasizing precisely these points.
The "European Miracle"
While it would be wrong to suggest the existence of any monolithic analysis,.[3]?
One possible answer, which has long enjoyed powerful support in intellectual circles in the West and among officials in underdeveloped countries, was heavily influenced by socialist and even Marxist tenets.[4] It accounted for Europe's extraordinary growth largely by the more or less spontaneous advance of science, combined with a "primitive accumulation" of capital — through imperialism, slavery and the slave trade, the expropriation of small farmers, and the exploitation of the domestic working class. The conclusion was clear. The extraordinary growth of Europe was at the expense of untold millions of the enslaved and downtrodden, and the European experience should serve decision makers in underdeveloped countries more as a cautionary tale than an exemplar.
The contributors to the newer model, however, reject this venerable legend. Concerned as they are with comparative economic history, they have sought for the origins of European development in what has tended to set Europe apart from other great civilizations, particularly those of China, India, and Islam. To one degree or another, their answer to the question, why Europe? has been: Because Europe enjoyed a relative lack of political constraint. As Jean Baechler, in a pioneering work, pointedly expressed it:
The first condition for the maximization of economic efficiency is the liberation of civil society with respect to the state…The expansion of capitalism owes its origins and raison d'être to political anarchy. (Baechler 1975, 77, 113; emphasis in original)
The Uniqueness of Europe
John Hicks partially adumbrated this approach in the late 1960s (Hicks 1969).[5] In A Theory of Economic History, Hicks laid out the "chief needs" of the expanding, mercantile phase of economic development — the protection of property and the enforcement of contracts — and stated:
The Mercantile Economy, in its First Phase, was an escape from political authority — except in so far as it made its own political authority. Then, in the Middle Phase, when it came formally back under the traditional political authority, that authority was not strong enough to control it. (Ibid., 33, 100)
Hicks's account, however, proved to be much too schematic, besides limiting itself to economic analysis and deliberately ignoring political, religious, scientific, and other factors (see Bauer 1971). Around the same time as Hicks, David Landes was sketching the essentials of the newer outlook. In seeking to answer the question why the industrial breakthrough occurred first in western Europe, he highlighted two factors "that set Europe apart from the rest of the world … the scope and effectiveness of private enterprise, and the high value placed on the rational manipulation of the human and material environment" (Landes 1970, 14–15). "The role of private enterprise in the West," in Landes's view, "is perhaps unique: more than any other factor, it made the modern world" (Ibid., 15).
But what was it that permitted private enterprise to flourish? Landes pinpointed the circumstance that would be vital to the new interpretation — Europe's radical decentralization:
Because of this crucial role as midwife and instrument of power in a context of multiple, competing polities (the contrast is with the all-encompassing empires of the Orient or the Ancient World), private enterprise in the West possessed a social and political vitality without precedent or counterpart. (Ibid.; emphasis in original)
Damaging incursions by government did occur, and the situation in some parts of Europe conditioned a social preference for military values; "on balance, however, the place of private enterprise was secure and improving with time; and this is apparent in the institutional arrangements that governed the getting and spending of wealth" (Ibid.).
A precondition of economic expansion was the definition and defense of property rights against the political authority. This occurred early on in Europe. Landes contrasts the European method of regular taxation (supervised by assemblies representative of the tax-bearing classes) with the system of "extortion" prevalent" (Ibid., 16–17).[6]
Landes's insights, briefly sketched in a few pages of introduction to his Prometheus Unbound, have been vastly elaborated upon by the new school. The upshot is an overall interpretation of Western history that may be stated as follows:
Although geographical factors played a role, the key to western development is to be found in the fact that, while Europe constituted a single civilization — Latin Christendom — it was at the same time radically decentralized.[7] "every political power tends to reduce everything that is external to it, and powerful objective obstacles are needed to prevent it from succeeding" (Baechler 1975, 79). In Europe, the "objective obstacles" were provided first of all by the competing political authorities. Instead of experiencing the hegemony of a universal empire, Europe developed into a mosaic of kingdoms, principalities, city-states, ecclesiastical domains, and other political entities.
Within this system, it was highly imprudent for any prince to attempt to infringe property rights in the manner customary elsewhere in the world. In constant rivalry with one another, princes found that outright expropriations, confiscatory taxation, and the blocking of trade did not go unpunished. The punishment was to be compelled to witness the relative economic progress of one's rivals, often through the movement of capital, and capitalists, to neighboring realms. The possibility of "exit," facilitated by geographical compactness and, especially, by cultural affinity, acted to transform the state into a "constrained predator" (Anderson 1991, 58).
Decentralization of power also came to mark the domestic arrangements of the various European polities. Here feudalism — which produced a nobility rooted in feudal right rather than in state-service — is thought by a number of scholars to have played an essential role (see, e.g., Baechler 1975, 78). Through the struggle for power within the realms, representative bodies came into being, and princes often found their hands tied by the charters of rights (Magna Carta, for instance) which they were forced to grant their subjects. In the end, even within the relatively small states of Europe, power was dispersed among estates, orders, chartered towns, religious communities, corps, universities, etc., each with its own guaranteed liberties. The rule of law came to be established throughout much of the Continent.
Thus, there is general agreement that crucial to laying the foundations for the European miracle were, in Jones's words, the "curtailment of predatory government tax behavior" and "the limits to arbitrariness set by a competitive political arena" (Jones 1987, xix, xxi). Over time, property rights — including rights in one's own person — came to be more sharply defined, permitting owners to capture more of the benefits of investment and improvement (North 1981). With the freer disposition of private property came the possibility of ongoing innovations, tested in the market. Here, too, the rivalrous state system was highly favorable. The nations of Europe functioned "as a set of joint-stock corporations with implicit prospectuses listing resources and freedoms" in such a way as to insure "against the suppression of novelty and unorthodoxy in the system as a whole" (Jones 1987, 119). A new social class arose, consisting of merchants, capitalists, and manufacturers "with immunity from interference by the formidable social forces opposed to change, growth, and innovation" (Rosenberg and Birdzell 1986, 24).
Eventually, the economy achieved a degree of autonomy unknown elsewhere in the world except for brief periods. As Jones puts it:
Economic development in its European form required above all freedom from arbitrary political acts concerning private property. Goods and factors of production had to be free to be traded. Prices had to be set by unconditional exchange if they were to be undistorted signals of what goods and services really were in demand, where and in what quantities. (Jones 1987, 85)
The system protecting the ownership and deployment of private property evolved in Europe by slow degrees — over at least "the eight centuries" mentioned by Bauer. Quite logically, therefore, the economic historians concerned with "how the West grew rich" have directed a great deal of their attention to the medieval period.
The Importance of the Middle Ages
The stereotype of the Middle Ages as "the Dark Ages" fostered by Renaissance humanists and Enlightenment philosophes has, of course, long since been abandoned by scholars. Still, the "consensus" writers on economic development whom Bauer faults have by and large ignored the importance of the Middle Ages for European growth — something that makes as much sense as beginning the explanation of the economic and cultural successes of European Jewry with the eighteenth century. Economic historians, however, following in the footsteps of the great Belgian historian Henri Pirenne (Pirenne 1937), have had a quite different estimation of the medieval period. Carlo M. Cipolla asserts that "the origins of the Industrial Revolution go back to that profound change in ideas, social structures, and value systems that accompanied the rise of the urban communes in the eleventh and thirteenth centuries" (Cipolla 1981, 298).
Of Europe from the late tenth to the fourteenth centuries, Robert S. Lopez states:
Here, for the first time in history, an underdeveloped society succeeded in developing itself, mostly by its own efforts … it created the indispensable material and moral conditions for a thousand years of virtually uninterrupted growth; and, in more than one way, it is still with us. (Lopez 1971, vii)
Lopez contrasts the European evolution with that of a neighboring civilization, Islam, where political pressures smothered the potential for an economic upsurge:
The early centuries of Islamic expansion opened large vistas to merchants and tradesmen. But they failed to bring to towns the freedom and power that was indispensable for their progress. Under the tightening grip of military and landed aristocracies the revolution that in the tenth century had been just around the corner lost momentum and failed. (Ibid., 57)
In Europe, as trade and industry expanded, people discovered that "commerce thrives on freedom and runs away from constriction; normally the most prosperous cities were those that adopted the most liberal policies" (Ibid., 90). The "demonstration effect" that has been a constant element in European progress — and which could exist precisely because Europe was a decentralized system of competing jurisdictions — helped spread the liberal policies that brought prosperity to the towns that first ventured to experiment with them.
Scholars like Cipolla and Lopez, attempting to understand European development in the Middle Ages, make constant reference to ideas, value systems, moral conditions, and similar cultural elements.[8] As Bauer has emphasized, this is a part of the distinctive European evolution that cannot be divorced from its institutional history. In regard to the Middle Ages, prime importance, in the view of many writers, attaches to Christianity. Harold J. Berman (Berman 1974)[9] has stressed that with the fall of Rome and the eventual conversion of the Germans, Slavs, Magyars, and so forth, Christian ideas and values suffused the whole blossoming culture of Europe. Christian contributions range from the mitigation of slavery and a greater equality within the family to the concepts of natural law, including the legitimacy of resistance to unjust rulers. The Church's canon law exercised a decisive influence on Western legal systems: "it was the church that first taught Western man what a modern legal system was like" (Ibid., 59).
Berman, moreover, focuses attention on a critical development that began in the eleventh century: the creation by Pope Gregory VII and his successors of a powerful "corporate, hierarchical church … independent of emperors, kings, and feudal lords," and thus capable of foiling the power-seeking of temporal authority (Ibid., 56).[10] In this way, Berman bolsters Lord Acton's analysis of the central role of the Catholic church in generating Western liberty by forestalling any concentration of power such as marked the other great cultures, and thus creating the Europe of divided and conflicting jurisdictions.[11]
In a major synthesis, Law and Revolution, Berman has highlighted the legal facets of the development whose economic, political, and ideological aspects other scholars have examined (Berman 1983): "Perhaps the most distinctive characteristic of the Western legal tradition is the coexistence and competition within the same community of diverse legal systems. It is this plurality of jurisdictions and legal systems that makes the supremacy of law both necessary and possible" (Ibid., 10)[12]
Berman's work is in the tradition of the great English scholar, A.J. Carlyle, who, at the conclusion of his monumental study of political thought in the Middle Ages, summarized the basic principles of medieval politics: that all — including the king — are bound by law; that a lawless ruler is not a legitimate king, but a tyrant; that where there is no justice there is no commonwealth; that a contract exists between the ruler and his subjects (Carlyle and Carlyle 1950, 503–26).
Other recent scholarship has supported these conclusions. In his last, posthumous work, the distinguished historian of economic thought, Jacob Viner, noted that the references to taxation by St. Thomas Aquinas "treat it as a more or less extraordinary act of a ruler which is as likely as not to be morally illicit" (Viner 1978, 68–69). Viner pointed to the medieval papal bull, In Coena Domini — evidently republished each year into the late eighteenth century — which threatened to excommunicate any ruler "who levied new taxes or increased old ones, except for cases supported by law, or by an express permission from the pope" (Ibid., 69). Throughout the Western world, the Middle Ages gave rise to parliaments, diets, estates-generals, Cortes, etc., which served to limit the powers of the monarch. [13] A.R. Myers notes:
Almost everywhere in Latin Christendom the principle was, at one time or another, accepted by the rulers that, apart from the normal revenues of the prince, no taxes could be imposed without the consent of parliament … By using their power of the purse [the parliaments] often influenced the rulers policies, especially restraining him from military adventures. (Myers 1975 29–30)
In a recent synthesis of modern medievalist scholarship, Norman F. Cantor has summarized the heritage of the European Middle Ages in terms strikingly similar to those employed by the current institutional historians:
In the model of civil society, most good and important things take place below the universal level of the state: the family, the arts, learning, and science; business enterprise and technological process.. (Cantor 1991, 416)
One highly important factor in the advance of the West, possibly linked to Christianity, has not, however, been dealt with by the newer economic historians. It is the relative lack of institutionalized envy in Western culture. In a work endorsed by Bauer, the sociologist Helmut Schoeck has drawn attention to the omnipresence of envy in human societies (Schoeck [1969] 1987). Perceived as a grave threat by those at whom it is directed, it typically results in elaborate envy-avoidance behavior: the attempt to ward off the dangers of malicious envy by denying, disguising, or suppressing whatever traits provoked it. The antieconomic consequences of socially permitted — or even encouraged — envy and reactive envy-avoidance scarcely lend themselves to quantification. Nonetheless, they may clearly be highly damaging. Drawing on anthropological studies, Schoeck stresses the harm that institutionalized envy can inflict on the process of economic and technical growth (Ibid., 73). Western culture, according to Schoeck, has somehow been able to inhibit envy to a remarkable degree. Why this is so is less clear. Schoeck links this fact to the Christian faith: "It must have been one of Christianity's most important, if unintentional, achievements in preparing men for, and rendering them capable of, innovative actions when it provided man for the first time with supernatural beings who, he knew, could neither envy nor ridicule him" (Ibid., 79). Yet the evident variation in socially permitted envy in different Christian societies (e.g., Russia as against western Europe) suggests that the presence of Christian faith alone is not an adequate explanation.
Case Studies of Development
Obviously, all of Europe did not progress at the same rate. In particular, in the modern period the Netherlands and then England became the pacesetters of economic growth, while other countries declined. These facts can also be accounted for by the model.
The Low Countries had long benefited from the legal system inherited from the dukes of Burgundy. These rulers, who governed in collaboration with an active estates-general,[14] had promoted an open commercial and industrial system, based on protection of property rights. In the rise of the "northern Netherlands" (the United Provinces, or "Holland") we have a near-perfect example of the European miracle in operation. First, the area had been a major participant in European economic, political, social, and cultural developments for centuries. As Cipolla has observed, "The country that in the second half of the sixteenth century rebelled against Spanish imperialism and then rose to the role of Europe's economically most dynamic nation, was anything but an underdeveloped country from the outset" (Cipolla 1981, 263). Owing its independence to the decentralized state system of Europe, it emerged itself as a decentralized polity, without a king and court — a "headless commonwealth" that combined secure property rights, the rule of law, religious toleration, and intellectual freedom with a degree of prosperity that amounted to an early modern Wirtschaftswunder. It is not surprising that Holland exerted a powerful demonstration effect. As K.W. Swart states:
both foreigners and Dutchmen were apt to believe that the Dutch Republic was unique in permitting an unprecedented degree of freedom in the fields of religion, trade, and politics…. In the eyes of contemporaries it was this combination of freedom and economic predominance that constituted the true miracle of the Dutch Republic. (Swart 1969, 20)
The success of the Dutch experiment was noted with great interest, especially in England, whose soil was already well prepared to accept the idea that prosperity is a reward of freedom. The deep roots of economic individualism, and hence of development, in English medieval history have been emphasized by Alan Macfarlane (Macfarlane 1978 and 1987).[15] In the early modern period, the common law, which had evolved over many centuries, acted as a guarantor of the sanctity of property and free entry to industry and trade against the policies of the early Stuart kings. In the face of authoritarian usurpations, Sir Edward Coke and his fellow jurists acted, in the words of North and Thomas, "to place the creation of property rights beyond the royal whim; to embed existing property rights in a body of impersonal law guarded by the courts" (North and Thomas 1973, 148). Crucial in the case of both the Netherlands and England was the preservation, against attempted royal encroachments, of traditional representative assemblies determined to deny the ruler the right to tax at will. Here the antiauthoritarian side exploited — and further developed — the inherited discourse whose key concepts included "liberties," "rights," "the law of nature," and "constitution."
The decline of Spain, on the other hand, is also taken into account in the model. Confiscation of the property of Jews and Moors by the Spanish crown was, according to North and Thomas:
only symptomatic of the insecurity of all property rights . . seizure, confiscation, or the unilateral alteration of contracts were recurrent phenomena which ultimately affected every group engaged in commerce or industry as well as agriculture…. As no property was secure, economic retardation was the inevitable consequence. (Ibid., 131)
The economic decay of Spain, in turn, provided a negative demonstration effect that played a potent role in the policy choices of other countries.
The theme of the autonomy of the market and the inhibition of the predator-state as major factors in economic growth is pursued in the examination of non-European cultures. Baechler, for instance, states that "each time China was politically divided, capitalism flourished," and maintains that Japanese history manifests conditions approximating those of Europe (Baechler 1975, 82–86). Anderson, after surveying economic growth in the history of Sung China and Tokugawa Japan, as well as the Netherlands and England, concludes that the common element is that "they occurred when governmental constraints on economic activity were relaxed" (Anderson 1991, 73–74)[16]
While, needless to say, much more research requires to be done on economic development in the history of non-European civilizations, the evidence so far suggests strong support for the basic thrust of the institutional approach.
Contrast of Europe with Russia
The meaning of the European miracle can be better seen if European developments are contrasted with those in Russia. Colin White lists, as the determining factors of Russian backwardness "a poor resource and hostile risk environment … an unpropitious political tradition and institutional inheritance, ethnic diversity, and the weakness of such key groups limiting state power as the church and landed oligarchy." (White 1987, 136) After the destruction of Kievan Rus by the Tatars and the rise of Muscovy, Russia was characterized for centuries by the virtual absence of the rule of law, including security for persons and property.
The lawlessness — as well as the poverty — of Muscovite Russia was notorious. When the emissary of Elizabeth I inquired of Ivan the Great the status of his subjects, he was told: "All are slaves" (Besançon, in Baechler, Hall, and Mann 1988, 161). Ivan IV, the Terrible, annihilated the flourishing commercial republics of Novgorod and Pskov, and loosed his Oprichnina (Ivan's praetorian guard) on the kingdom for a frenzy of butchery that came to stand for what was permissible in the Muscovite state. Alain Besançon remarks dryly, "Of the three legends (Romanian, German, and Russian) that depict, in the guise of Dracula, the reign of Vlad the Impaler, the Russian alone sings the praises of the prince" (Ibid.).
The nobility in Russia was a state-service nobility, lacking any independent base. As White observes: "Russia was never truly feudal in the west European sense of the term" (White 1987, 10). In contrast to Europe and America, the towns, as well, were "simply another arm of the state" (Ibid., 137–38). The differences between Russia and the West can be seen in their respective ideas of "absolutism." Ivan IV's concept is well known. It may be compared with that of a political writer in the West who is famous as a defender of royal absolutism, Jean Bodin. Alexander Yanov has pointed out that, for all his faith in absolutism:
Bodin regarded the property of the citizens as their inalienable possession, in the disposition of which they were no less sovereign than was the monarch in ruling his people. To tax citizens of a part of their inalienable property without their voluntary consent was, from Bodin's point of view, ordinary robbery. (Yanov 1981, 44–45)[17]
In this connection, Yanov reports a telling anecdote. A French diplomat in a conversation with an English colleague affirmed his belief in the principle enunciated by Louis XIV, that the king was ultimate owner of all the property within his kingdom (a principle which even the Sun-King never dared to act upon). The Englishmen retorted: "Did you study public law in Turkey?" (Ibid., 44 n. 17)
The fact that Russia received Christianity from Byzantium rather than Rome shaped the entire course of Russia's history (Pipes 1974, 221–43). In the words of Richard Pipes, the Orthodox church in Russia became, like every other institution, "the servant of the state." Pipes concludes, regarding the "relations between state and society in pre-1900 Russia":
None of the economic or social groups of the old regime was either able or willing to stand up to the crown and challenge its monopoly of political power. They were not able to do so because, by enforcing the patrimonial principle, i.e., by effectively asserting its claim to all the territory of the realm as property and all its inhabitants as servants, the crown prevented the formation of pockets of independent wealth or power. (Ibid., 249)
What ideas of liberalism came to Russia came perforce from the West. It was from listening to the lectures on natural law at the University of Leipzig that Alexander Radishchev first learned that limits may be put to the power of the tsar (Clardy 1964, 37–38). The beginnings of the shift to a more market-oriented economic policy before the First World War are traced by Besancon to the fact that the Russian ministers read the liberal economists (Besancon, in Baechler, Hall, and Mann 1988, 166).
The Downfall of Marxist Historiography
The Marxist philosophy of history is filled with manifold, often strategic, contradictions and ambiguities. Yet, if "historical materialism" has any significant content at all it is as a technological interpretation of history (Mises 1957, 106–12; Bober 1962, 3 — -). Although Nathan Rosenberg has denied that Marx held that "technological factors are, so to speak, the independent variable in generating social change, which constitutes the dependent variable" (Rosenberg 1982, 36; see also 34–51),[18] the weight of evidence is heavily against him (Cohen 1978, 134–0).
According to Marx, Engels, and the theoreticians of the "Golden Age" of the Second International, history proceeds basically via changes in the "material productive forces" (the technological base), which render obsolete the existing "mode of production" (the property system). Because of technological changes, the mode of production is compelled to change; with it, everything else — the whole legal, political, and ideological "superstructure" of society — is transformed, as well (Marx [1859] 1969b, 8-). As Marx put it aphoristically: "The wind mill yields a society with feudal lords, the steam mill a society with industrial capitalists" (Marx [1847] 1969a, 130).
Marxism has, of course, been subjected for generations to withering rebuttal on many different fronts, not least in regard to its philosophy of history. The newer understanding of European history is particularly destructive of its fundamental claims, however, in that it directs attention to the peculiar shallowness of "historical materialism." This newer understanding insists that the colossal growth of technology in the Western world in the past millennium must itself be explained, and the explanation it provides is in terms of the institutional and moral matrix that emerged in Europe over many centuries.[19] New and more productive machines did not spring forth mysteriously and spontaneously, nor was the spectacular expansion of technical and scientific knowledge somehow inevitable. As Anderson has summed up the evidence, "the scientific and technical stasis that followed the remarkable achievements of the Song dynasty, or of the flowering of early Islam, indicates that scientific inquiry and technology do not necessarily possess in themselves the dynamism suggested by the European experience" (Anderson 1991, 46). On the contrary, technology and science emerged out of an interrelated set of political, legal, philosophical, religious, and moral elements in what orthodox Marxism has traditionally disparaged as the "superstructure" of society.
Conclusion
According to the Indian development economist R.M. Sundrum, if we are to understand how development can be promoted in the poorer countries today, we must understand the historical process which transformed developed countries in the past, and why this process failed to take place elsewhere (cited in Arndt 1987, 177). This is the position that P.T. Bauer, too, has insisted upon. Rejecting the "timeless approach" to economic development, Bauer has accentuated the many centuries required for economic growth in the Western world, and the interplay of various cultural factors that were its precondition. Most important, in Bauer's view, is that in the Western world institutions and values evolved that favored private property and the market, set limits to state arbitrariness and predation, and encouraged innovation and the sense that human beings are capable of improving their lot through their actions on the market.
Because Europe enjoyed a relative lack of political constraint."
Recently, W.W. Rostow, in a summary of Bauer's career, chided him for failing "to take adequately into account the extremely large and inescapable role of the state in early phases of development" (Rostow 1990, 386).[20] Such a criticism is not surprising, coming from one of the leaders of what Bauer has for years assailed as the "spurious consensus." Yet it finds little support in the work of the historians dealt with here. (For some reason, Rostow ignores this whole body of scholarship in his very lengthy history of theories of economic growth; Ibid., passim). While some of these authors would stipulate a significant role for the state in certain areas — particularly in defining and enforcing property rights — this is consistent with Bauer's viewpoint. Moreover, the overall thrust of their work — which stresses the importance of limits on state action in the development of the West — tends to corroborate Bauer's position rather than Rostow's. Peter Burke, for instance, writing on one of the earliest examples of European development — the merchant-states of northern Italy and the Netherlands — describes them as "pro-enterprise cultures in which governments did relatively little to frustrate the designs of merchants or hinder economic growth, a negative characteristic which all the same gave those countries an important advantage over their competitors" (Burke in Baechler, Hall, and Mann 1988, 230). William H. McNeill notes that "within Europe itself, those states that gave the most scope to private capital and entrepreneurship prospered the most, whereas better governed societies in which welfare on the one hand or warfare on the other commanded a larger proportion of available resources tended to lag behind." As the growth leaders McNeill cites "such conspicuously undergoverned lands as Holland and England" (McNeill 1980, 65). And F.L. Jones takes as a guiding principle in the explanation of growth a famous passage from Adam Smith: "Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice; all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things" (Jones 1987, 234–35, cited in Stewart [1793] 1966, 68).
The new paradigm generated by the work of these and other scholars has already helped produce further major works of research and synthesis.[21] It goes without saying that a great deal more study is required. Yet it is likely that further research will provide additional substantiation of the viewpoint steadfastly represented by Professor Bauer. As Anderson observes: "The emphasis on release from constraints points to a fruitful direction of research into why some societies experienced economic development and others didn't" (Anderson 1991, 73–74). In any case, the subject will continue to be of very great theoretical interest to scholars — and to many millions in the underdeveloped world, a matter of life and death.
References
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Anderson, J.L. 1991. Explaining Long-Term Economic Change. London: Macmillan.
Arndt, H.W. 1987. Economic Development: The History of an Idea. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Baechler, Jean. 1975. The Origins of Capitalism. Trans. Barry Cooper. Oxford: Basil Blackwell.
Baechler, Jean, John A. Hall, and Michael Mann, eds. 1988. Europe and the Rise of Capitalism. Oxford: Basil Blackwell.
Bauer, P.T. 1971. "Economic History as Theory." Economica, new series 38, no. 150 (May): 163–79.
——. 1972. Dissent on Development. Studies and Debates on Development Economics. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Berman, Harold J. 1974. "The Influence of Christianity on the Development of Western Law." In idem, The Interaction of Law and Religion, 49–76. Nashville/New York: Abingdon Press.
——. 1983. Law and Revolution: The Formation of the Western Legal Tradition. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Besançon, Alain. "The Russian Case." In Baechler, Hall, and Mann 1988, 159–68.
Bober, M.M. 1962. Karl Marx's Interpretation of History. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Burke, Peter. "Republics of Merchants in Early Modem Europe," 220–33. In Baechler, Hall, and Mann 1988.
Cantor, Norman F. 1991. Inventing the Middle Ages: The Lives, Works, and Ideas of the Great Medievalists of the Twentieth Century. New York: William Morrow.
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Chirot, Daniel. 1986. Social Change in the Modem Era. San Diego: Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich.
Cipolla, Carlo M. 1981. Before the Industrial Revolution: European Society and Economy, 1000–1700, 2d ed. London: Methuen.
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Cohen, G.A. 1978. Karl Marx's Theory of History: A Defence. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Dorn, James A. 1987. "Introduction: Development Economics after Forty Years." Cato Journal 7, no. 1 (Spring/Summer): 1–19.
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Jones, E.L. 1987. The European Miracle: Environments, Economies, and Geopolitics in the History of Europe and Asia. 2d ed. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
——. 1988. Growth Recurring. Economic Change in World History. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Kennedy, Paul. 1987. The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: Economic Change and Military Conflict, 1500–2000. New York: Random House.
Landes, David. 1970. Unbound Prometheus: Technological Change and Industrial Development in Western Europe from 1750 to the Present. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Lopez, Robert S. 1971. The Commercial Revolution of the Middle Ages 950–1350. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall.
Macfarlane, Alan. 1978. The Origins of English Individualism: The Family, Property, and Social Transition. Oxford: Basil Blackwell.
——. 1987. The Culture of Capitalism. Oxford: Basil Blackwell.
McNeill, William H. 1980. The Human Condition: An Ecological and Historical View. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
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——. [1859] l969b. "Vorwort," Zur Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie. In Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Werke, 13. Berlin: Dietz.
Mises, Ludwig von. 1957. Theory and History. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press.
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North, Douglass C. 1981. Structure and Change in Economic History. New York: Norton.
North, Douglass C., and Robert Paul Thomas. 1973. The Rise of the Western World: A New Economic History. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Osterfeld, David. 1992. Prosperity versus Planning: How Government Stifles Economic Growth. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
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Roberts, J.M. 1985. The Triumph of the West: The Origins, Rise, and Legacy of Western Civilization. Boston: Little, Brown.
Rosenberg, Nathan. 1976. Perspectives on Development. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
——. 1982. Inside the Black Box: Technology and Economics. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Rosenberg, Nathan, and L.E. Birdzell, Jr. 1986. How the West Grew Rich: The Economic Trans formation of the Industrial World. New York: Basic Books.
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Schoeck, Helmut. [1969] 1987. Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour. Reprint. Indianapolis: Liberty Press.
Stewart, Dugald. [1793] 1966. Biographical Memoir of Adam Smith. Reprint. New York: Augustus M. Kelley.
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Viner, Jacob. 1978. Religious Thought and Economic Society. Ed. Jacques Melitz and Donald Winch. Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press.
Walters, A.A. 1989. "Bauer, Peter Tamas." In The New Palgrave: Economic Development, ed. John Eatwell, Murray Milgate, and Peter Newman. New York: W.W. Norton.
Weede, Erich. 1988. "Der Sonderweg des Westens." Zeitschrift für Soziologie 17, no.3 (June): 172–86.
——. 1990. Wirtschaft, Staat, und Gesel/schaft: Zur Soziologie der kapitalistischen Marktzwirtschaft und der Demokratie. Tübingen: J.C.B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck).
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Notes
[1] Cf. Roberts (1985, 75), who writes of "the general liberation of the economy," which was well on the way to autonomy everywhere in western Europe by 1500, if autonomy means regulation by prices providing undistorted signals of demand and a substantial degree of security for property against arbitrary confiscation by king, lord, or robber."
[2] Cf. Rosenberg (1976, 286), who raises the question why Western European civilization was able to evolve a uniquely powerful combination of cultural values, incentive systems, and organizational capabilities, and remarks: "Interesting answers to this question are unlikely to come from any single social science discipline."
[3] Major works in the field include North and Thomas (1973); Baechler (1975); North (1981); Rosenberg and Birdzell (1986); Jones (1987); Baechler, Hall, and Mann (1988), especially the essays by Michael Mann, John A. Hall, Alain Besançon, Karl Ferdinand Werner, and Peter Burke; and Jones (1988). Summaries of some of the scholarship are provided by Anderson (1991); and Weede (1988) and (1990, 40–59). See also Osterfeld (1992, 43–46). The essay by McNeill (1980) makes creative use of the fundamental concepts of the approach.
[4] F.A. Hayek in the 1950s referred to "a socialist interpretation of history which has governed political thinking for the last two or three generations and which consists mainly of a particular view of economic history." See Hayek (1954, 7).
[5] The idea of a strong connection between the relative freedom of European society and its economic success can, of course, be traced back to much earlier authors, including those in the Whig historical tradition. Here it is being considered in the context of recent, mainly economic, historiography.
[6] A secondary theme (Landes 1970, 21–22) is the character of the European Weltanschauung. Landes points to the emphasis on rationality in European culture, relative to others, fostered by elements in Christianity that ultimately may be traced to Judaism's disparagement of magic and superstition.
[7] Cf. Baechler (1975, 74): Europe was "a society based upon the same moral and material civilization that never ended up in political unity, in short, in an Empire."
[8] Cf. Douglass C. North, "Ideology and the Free Rider Problem," in North (1981, 45–58).
[9] I am grateful to Leonard P. Liggio for calling my attention to this essay.
[10] Cf. Roberts (1985, 67–9), on the Hildebrandine reform, and his comment, 68–69: "The preservation of an idea of liberty and its transmission to the future thus owes an incalculable amount to the quarrels of church and state."
[11] See Lord Acton's great essay, "The History of Freedom in Christianity (Acton 1956): To that conflict of four hundred years [between the Church and the temporal rulers] we owe the rise of civil liberty…" (86–87).
[12] Cf. Chirot (1986, 23): "The main reason for the legal rationalization of the West, then, was the long, indecisive, multisided political struggle between king, nobles, the church, and the towns."
[13] See A.R. Myers (1975, 24), who states of these parliamentary bodies: "they flourished at one time or another in every realm of Latin Christendom. They first emerge clearly towards the end of the twelfth century in the Spanish kingdom of Leon, in the thirteenth century in Castile, Aragon (and also Catalonia and Valencia), Portugal, Sicily, the Empire and some of the constituent states such as Brandenburg and Austria, and in England and Ireland. In the fourteenth century … in France … the Netherlands, Scotland, more of the German and Italian states, and Hungary; in the fifteenth century … in Denmark, Sweden, and Poland."
[14] Cf. Chirot (1986, 18): "a Burgundian states-general met 160 times from 1464 to 1567, exercising great fiscal powers and defending the rights of towns and merchants."
[15] Cf. Baechler (1975, 79): "If the general political structure of the West was favorable to economic expansion, it would be the most marked in that country where political power was most limited and tolerated the greatest autonomy of civil society." That country, according to Baechler, was England.
[16] See also the chapters on Sung China and Japan in Jones 1988.
[17] Compare Carlyle and Carlyle (1950, 512): "And most remarkable is it that Budé, who set out the doctrine of the absolute monarchy in France in the most extravagant terms, should have at the same time felt compelled to draw attention to the fact that the French Kings submitted to the judgment of the Parliament of Paris; and that Bodin should have contended that the judges should be permanent and irremovable, except by process of law, because the kingdom should be governed by laws and not by the mere will of the prince."
[18] Rosenberg states that the technological interpretation of the Marxist philosophy of history relies upon a few "aphoristic assertions, often tossed out in the heat of debate" (1982, 36). Nowhere in his essay, however, does he allude to the locus classicus of the subject, Marx's Preface to A Contribution to a Critique of Political Economy (Marx [1859] 1969b).
[19] Anderson (1991, 41) rejects technical change as an independent variable explaining economic growth: "Technology is more appropriately seen as dependent on the institutional structure and the availability of capital, including 'human capital' expressed as an educated, skilled, and healthy workforce. The availability of capital is in turn dependent on a favorable set of institutions."
[20] Rostow's dismissive tone in his treatment of Bauer may well have been affected by Bauer's devastating review of Rostow's magnum opus, The Stages of Economic Growth. See Bauer (1972: 477–89).
[21] See, for instance, Roberts (1985): Chirot (1986); and Kennedy (1987, 19–20), where the author of this celebrated book writes of the "decentralized, largely unsupervised growth of commerce and merchants and ports and markets [in Europe]… there was no way in which such economic developments could be fully suppressed … there existed no uniform authority in Europe which could effectively halt this or that commercial development; no central government whose change in priorities could cause the rise or fall of a particular industry; no systematic and universal plundering of businessmen and entrepreneurs by tax gatherers, which so retarded the economy of Moghul India." |
Literature Library
Back Door to War: The Roosevelt Foreign Policy 1933-1941
Charles Callan Tansill
>.
Preface
Table of Contents
Historical Introduction
a. The Rise of Anglo-American Friendship
b. Japan Is Given a Green Light to Expand in Manchuria
c. Sir Edward Grey Scores a Diplomatic Success
d. The Department of State Strikes a False Note
e. The Allies Violate the Pre-Armistice Contract
f. Reparations and Rascality
g. The Colonial Question
h. The Problem of Poland: Danzig—The Polish Corridor—Upper Silesia
(1) Danzig
(2) The Polish Corridor
(3) Upper Silesia
i. The Occupation of the Rhineland
j. The Starvation Blockade
k. German Reaction to the Treaty of Versailles
I: American Relations with the WeimarRepublic
a. America Rejects Trials of War Criminals
b. The Allies Balk at the Payment of American Army of Occupation
c. France Moves into the Ruhr
d. President Hoover Suggests a Moratorium on Reparations
e. Chancellor Brüning Is Compelled to Resign
f. The Disarmament Problem Remains a Challenge
g. American Press Opinion of Hitler in 1933
h. American Diplomats Regard Germany with Misgivings
i. President Roosevelt “Torpedoes” the World Economic Conference
j. The Four Power Pact Proves a Failure
k. William E. Dodd Goes to Germany as U.S. Ambassador
l. The President Tells a Spurious Story
II: The Far East in Ferment
a. A Triple Offensive Is Launched against Japan
b. Sun Yat-sen Gives the Chinese Revolution a Red Tinge
c. Senator Borah Attacks Foreign Imperialism in China
d. Causes of the Antiforeign Movement in China
e. The Kuomintang Demands Tariff Autonomy
f. American Missionaries Help to Mold United States Policy
g. Evolution of U.S. Policy towards Nationalist China
h. The Kuomintang Armies Employ Red Advisers
i. Peking and Canton Demand Revision of Existing Treaties
j. Britain Challenges American Leadership in China
k. Congress Supports a Policy of Treaty Revision
l. The Nanking Incident and Its Repercussions
m. Secretary Kellogg Is Indifferent to Red Menace in China
III: Continued Friction with Japan Points towards Inevitable War
a. Congress Enacts an Exclusion Law Which Angers Japan
b. Japan Invites United States Capital to Invest in Manchuria
c. Chinese Soldiers Provoke the Tsinan Incident
d. Russia Teaches the War Lord of Manchuria a Lesson
e. Background of the Manchurian Incident
(1) Japan is Worried Over the Spread of Communism in China
(2) Difficulties Concerning the Railways in Manchuria
(3) Frictrion With Reference to the Nishihara Loans
(4) Anti-Japanese Educational Programs in China
(5) The Legality of the Treaties of May 25, 1915
(6) The Murder of Captain Nakamura
f. Secretary Stimson Prepares a Path to War
IV: Secretary Stimson Produces a Pattern of War
a. American Press Opinion of the Stimson Doctrine
b. Stimson Helps to Push Japan out of the League
c. Matsuoka Marches Out of the League
d. President Roosevelt Regards with a Friendly Eye the Principle of Collective Security
V: Secretary Hull Spurns a Japanese Olive Branch
a. America Makes a Friendly Bow to League of Nations
b. Japan Earmarks Jehol as a Part of Manchukuo
c. Secretary Hull Rejects Idea of Japanese Good-will Mission
d. Friction in Far East Points to Eventual Russo-Japanese War
e. Japanese Gestures of Friendship are Rebuffed by the U.S.
f. Japan Proclaims a Monroe Doctrine for the Far East
g. The State Department Frowns upon an Understanding with Japan
h. Closing the Open Door in Manchuria?
VI: Moscow Molds the Political Pattern in the Far East
a. Secretary Hull Overlooks a Diplomatic Opportunity
b. Japan Denounces the Washington Naval Treaty
c. Japan Promotes Autonomy Movement in North China
d. America and Britain Protest against Japanese Policy
e. American Purchases of Silver Adversely Affect China
f. Japan Again Asks for Naval Parity
g. President Roosevelt Delivers a Lecture to Wicked Dictators
h. Chinese Nationalism Makes a Common Cause with Communism
i. Japan Draws Closer to Germany
j. Japan Seeks an Accommodation with China
k. Chiang Kai-shek Welcomes Communist Help against Japan
l. Japan Tries to Conciliate China
m. Soviet Russia Promotes a War between China and Japan
VII: Mussolini Looks upon Ethiopia with Acquisitive Eyes
a. Britain Recognizes Italian Aspirations in Northeast Africa
b. Italy Deserts the Triple Alliance
c. Britain Moves to Conciliate Mussolini
d. Italy’s Alleged Need for Colonial Outlets
e. The Walwal Incident Points in the Direction of War
f. Secretary Stimson Enjoys Friendly Relations with Mussolini
g. General Johnson Creates Tension in Italian-American Relations
h. Beginnings of the Rome-Berlin Axis
i. Anthony Eden Whispers a Few Confidences to Hugh Wilson
j. The Walwal Arbitration Encounters a Delay
k. Mussolini Rejects a Proposal of Anthony Eden
l. The Emperor of Ethiopia Seeks American Intervention
m. Italy Is Anxious to Assume the White Man’s Burden in Africa
n. President Roosevelt Urges Mussolini to Accept Arbitration
o. The White House Denounces Dollar Diplomacy
VIII: Britain and France Fear to Provoke War over the Issue of Ethiopia
a. France Vainly Seeks Promises of Aid from Britain
b. The Walwal Arbitral Commission Dodges the Issue
c. Laval Wishes to Conciliate Mussolini
d. Secretary Hull Rejects the Role of Mediator
e. Britain and France Seek to Solve the Ethiopian Problem
f. Ambassador Long Favors Giving Mussolini a Slice of Ethiopia
g. Laval Makes a Bow towards Britain
h. Britain Wishes the U.S. to Accept Important Responsibilities
i. Anthony Eden Expresses Suspicions of Russia
j. Ambassador Long Advises against Sanctions
k. Secretary Hull Defines the Position of the United States
l. The Committee of Five Makes a Futile Suggestion
m. The Department of State Ponders the Problem of Sanctions
n. Italy Rejects the Proposal of the Committee of Five
o. Mussolini Offers a Formula of Peace
p. Britain Bids for American Support
q. Mussolini Moves in the Direction of War
r. Secretary Hull Offers “Moral Support” to Ethiopia
s. Britain Engages in a Bit of Diplomatic Double Talk
IX: America Anticipates the League in Exerting Economic Pressure upon Italy
a. Senator Nye Flusters Foreign Diplomats
b. The Offensive against American Neutrality
c. The President Accepts a Congressional Program of Neutrality
d. American Reaction to the Italo-Ethiopian War
e. The League Names Italy as an Aggressor Nation
f. Secretary Hull Insists upon an Independent Policy
g. Britain Limits Italian Freedom of Speech
h. America Refuses to Follow a Parallel Policy with Britain
i. Italy Hopes to Preserve American Friendship
j. The Department of State Exerts Pressure upon Italy
X: Mussolini Makes a Mockery out of Collective Security
a. Secretary Hull Defends American Policy
b. The Hoare-Laval Agreement
c. President Roosevelt Chides Italy
d. Josef Beck Loses Confidence in the League
e. Implications of the Maffey Report
f. Britain Wishes Oil to Be on List of Sanctions
g. Mussolini Makes a Peaceful Gesture
h. Britain Becomes More Friendly with Hitler
i. The League Attempts to End the Italo-Ethiopian War
j. Britain Continues to Court Hitler
k. America Refuses to Adopt a Realistic Policy
l. Eden Recommends that Sanctions Be Lifted
m. The Principle of Nonrecognition Is Invoked by the United States
XI: Ambassador Dodd Finds Berlin an Unpleasant Spot for a Wilsonian Democrat
a. Nazi Germany Makes a Friendly Gesture towards America
b. Dodd Declines to Attend the Nürnberg Party Congress
c. American Citizens Are Roughly Handled by Storm Troopers
d. Professor Coar Tries to Improve German-American Relations
e. George Sylvester Viereck Offers to Assist the President
f. Mr. Kaltenborn Receives a Lesson in Incivility
g. Germany Withdraws from the League of Nations
h. The Debt Problem Embarrasses German-American Relations
i. New York City Stages a Mock Trial of Hitler
j. The Nazi Regime Is Placed upon an Uneasy Defensive
XII: America Views the Hitler Regime with Increasing Dislike
a. Similarities between Nazi and American fiscal Policies
b. General Johnson Denounces the Nazi Party Purge
c. The Assassination of Chancellor Dollfuss
d. The Death of President Hindenburg
e. American Opinion of the Saar Plebiscite
f. The Anglo-French Declaration Looks towards Collective Security
g. Hitler Breaks Another Link in the Chain of Versailles
h. Apparent Agreement at Stresa
i. France Makes an Important Agreement with Russia
j. Britain and Germany Negotiate a Naval Treaty
k. Secretary Hull Is Fearful of the Role of Moral Leadership
l. The Bremen Incident
m. American Hostility towards the Hitler Regime
XIII: Europe Fails to Find a Substitute for Locarno
a. Hitler Liquidates the Locarno Pact
b. American Press Opinion Relative to the Rhineland
c. Europe Views the Hitler Coup with Alarm
d. Hitler Offers a New Formula for Peace
e. Eden Turns with Each New Diplomatic Breeze
f. Hitler and Mussolini Reach an Important Accord
g. Versailles Undergoes Another Attack
h. Germany and Italy Recognize Franco
i. The German-Japanese Anti-Comintern Pact, November 25, 1936
j. Europe Tries to Replace Locarno
k. Hitler’s Soft Answers Stir New Hope in Europe
l. France Is Hopeful of American Support
XIV: The Shadow of Dictatorship Begins to Darken the American Landscape
a. European Statesmen Fumble for a Peace Formula
b. Belgium Breaks Her Bonds with Britain and France
c. Mayor La Guardia Hurls a Verbal Bomb at Hitler
d. Secretary Hull Regrets the Action of La Guardia
e. Cardinal Mundelein Creates Tension between the Vatican and Germany
f. The American Press Is Critical of the Bombardment of Almeria
g. Points of Friction along the Economic Front
h. The Department of State Authorizes Attendance at Nazi Parteitag
i. Secretary Hull Is Critical of Ambassador Dodd
j. The President Advocates a Quarantine of Aggressors
k. American Opinion of the Quarantine Speech
l. The Nazi Regime Is Placed upon an Uneasy Defensive
m. Mussolini Pays a Momentous Visit to Berlin
XV: Britain Blocks an Effort of Roosevelt to Find a Path to Peace
a. Secretary Ickes Widens the Breach between the United States and Germany
b. Hitler Repudiates the German-American Bund
c. Austrian Independence Hangs in the Balance
d. Ambassador Bullitt Has Some Important Conversations
e. Hitler Plays Host to Lord Halifax
f. Britain Blocks a Presidential Program for Peace
XVI: Hitler Takes over Austria as a Long-Delayed Step towards Anschluss
a. The Viennese Waltz Takes on Macabre Overtones
b. Schuschnigg Pays a Visit to Berchtesgaden
c. Lord Halifax Learns the Price of Appeasement
d. British Appeasement of Italy Is Too Little and Too Late
e. Hitler Marches into Vienna
f. American Reaction to Anschluss
XVII: President Beneš Postpones Too Long a Policy of Appeasement
a. Czechoslovakia Precipitates the May Crisis
b. The Sudeten Germans Formulate Demands Which They Know Cannot Be Fulfilled
c. Chamberlain Says Britain Will Not Fight for Czechoslovakia
d. Tension in Czechoslovakia
e. Germany Prepares a List of Political Imperatives
f. Konrad Henlein Asks for Provocative Concessions
g. Lord Runciman Calls Czechoslovakia an “Accursed Land”
h. Sir Nevile Henderson Loses Patience with Beneš
i. Kennedy Predicts U.S. Intervention in World War II
j. Chamberlain Decides to Visit Berchtesgaden
k. British Appeasement Saves Hitler
XVIII: Munich: Prelude to Prague
a. President Roosevelt Extends Monroe Doctrine
b. Chamberlain Pays a Visit to Berchtesgaden
c. Beneš Accepts the Anglo-French Proposals
d. Hitler Formulates New Demands
e. Chamberlain Makes a New Appeal to Hitler
f. Roosevelt Supports Chamberlain’s Plea for Peace
g. Britain Makes Further Efforts to Preserve Peace
h. Roosevelt Exerts Further Pressure upon the Dictators
i. Chamberlain Prepares the Basis for the Munich Accord
j. Capitulation at Munich
k. American Opinion of Munich
l. Diplomatic Straws in the Wind
XIX: Hitler Takes Czechoslovakia under Protective Custody
a. International Aspects of Anti-Semitism in Germany
b. Ambassador Kennedy Toys with the Idea of Acting as an Interlocutor between Hitler and Roosevelt
c. Ambassador Wilson Is Recalled from Germany
d. Dr. Schacht Offers Solution of Refugee Problem
e. Secretary Ickes Increases Tension in German-American Relations
f. The Economic Offensive against Germany Is Accelerated
g. Germany Is Anxious for an Accord with the United States
h. Chamberlain Pays Ardent Court to Mussolini
i. France Favors a Free Hand to Hitler in Eastern Europe
j. The British Foreign Office Has a Case of Jitters
k. Germany Fears the U.S. Will Intervene in World War II
l. Hitler Takes the Czechs under Protective Custody
m. Reaction in the U.S. to German Absorption of Czechoslovakia
XX: Russia Instigates War in the Far East; Roosevelt Blames Japan
a. Communist Instigation of War in the Far East
b. Secretary Hull Makes a Statement on U.S. Policy
c. The Situation in North China Becomes Ominous
d. The Department of State Insists upon an Independent Policy
e. The Scene Shifts to Shanghai
f. China Appeals to the League
g. President Roosevelt Proposes a Quarantine
XXI: Japan Proposes a Joint Search for World Peace but Hull Declines
a. Germany Views with Evident Dissatisfaction the Outbreak of War between China and Japan
b. The Abortive Brussels Conference, November 3-24, 1937
c. The Panay Incident
d. The Mission of Admiral Ingersoll to London
e. Japan Establishes a Series of Puppet Governments in China
f. The Far East after Munich
g. Chiang Kai-shek Suggests Another Washington Conference
h. The Economic Ties That Failed to Bind Japan Closely to the United States
i. Secretary Hull Rejects a British Suggestion for Exerting Economic Pressure upon Japan
j. China Anticipates War in Europe and Asks Britain and France to Consult with Her with Regard to a Common Front against Japan
k. Japan Asks Secretary Hull for a Joint Japanese-American Effort to Find Some Formula of Peace for Europe
XXII: Europe Moves towards War
a. Chamberlain Makes a Momentous Pledge to Poland
b. Lord Halifax Tries to “Work Something Out” with the Duce
c. Mussolini Moves into Albania
d. American Reaction to the Seizure of Albania
e. The Dictators’ Reply to the President’s Criticism
f. The Role of Russia Becomes Increasingly Important
g. Pope Pius XII Makes a Plea for Peace
XXIII: Stalin Lights the Fuse to World War II
a. Britain Is Reluctant to Regard Russia as an Ally
b. Chamberlain Begins to Pursue the Russian Phantom
c. Germany Seeks an Accord with Russia
d. Britain and France Make New Overtures to Russia
e. Germany Signs an Important Treaty with Russia
f. The Duce Tries to Sit on a Slippery Diplomatic Fence
g. Chamberlain Expands His Pledges to Poland
h. Hitler Sends a Warning to France
i. The Führer Turns Once More to Britain
j. Zero Hour in Europe
k. Roosevelt Makes an Appeal for Civilian Populations
l. Last-Minute Attempts at Mediation
XXIV: Roosevelt Adopts a More Positive Policy towards the War in Europe
a. The President Promises Peace for the U.S.
b. The Mission of William Rhodes Davis to Berlin
c. The Barriers Preserving Neutrality Are Broken Down
d. A Safety Belt for the Western Hemisphere
e. Secretary Hull Engages in a Battle of the Books
f. Hitler Adopts a Conciliatory Policy towards the U.S.
g. Finland Goes Down Fighting Soviet Aggression
h. The Mission of Sumner Welles
i. Britain and Germany Flout the Neutrality of Norway
j. Greenland Is Placed under the Monroe Doctrine
XXV: Roosevelt Seeks a Pretext for War with Germany
a. Hitler Launches a Blitzkrieg along the Western Front
b. Roosevelt Regards Neutrality as an Outmoded Concept
c. The President Makes a Third Plea to Mussolini to Stay Out of the War
d. Reynaud Makes a Last Appeal to Roosevelt for Immediate Military Assistance
e. The Destroyer Deal
f. Propaganda Pushes America towards Intervention
g. Lend-Lease—Back Door to Intervention in World War II
h. Hitler Is Anxious to Avoid Conflict with the United States
XXVI: Japan Is Maneuvered into Firing the First Shot at Pearl Harbor
a. Japanese Bombings of Chungking
b. The Tientsin Affair
c. Chiang Kai-shek Asks that Roosevelt Mediate in Sino-Japanese War
d. The President’s Attitude towards Japan Becomes Increasingly Belligerent
e. Japan Establishes a New Central Government in China
f. Japan Compels Both Britain and France to Adopt a Policy of Appeasement
g. The President Orders a Cautious Economic Offensive against Japan
h. Japan Concludes an Alliance with the Rome-Berlin Axis
i. America Draws Closer to Britain
j. Matsuoka and Prince Konoye Are Willing to Sacrifice Japan’s Position in China for the Cause of Peace
k. An Informal Negotiation Looking towards an Improvement in Japanese-American Relations
l. Blueprint for Anglo-American Co-operation
m. Japan Seeks Peace, Not War, with the United States
n. Admiral Nomura Strives to Improve Japanese-American Relations
o. Matsuoka Advises a Policy of Delay
p. Secretary Hull and Ambassador Nomura Search in Vain for a Formula of Peace
q. Matsuoka Is Dropped but Roosevelt Grows More Belligerent
r. The Atlantic Conference Pushes America Closer to a Break with Japan
s. Roosevelt Refuses to Meet Prince Konoye
t. General Marshall and Admiral Stark Oppose an Ultimatum to Japan
u. Japan Is Maneuvered into Firing the First Shot at Pearl Harbor
Bibliography
I. Manuscript Sources Papers
Official Papers
Private Papers
II. Printed Sources Official Documents
Unofficial Collections of Documents, Letters, Speeches
III. Newspapers and Periodicals
Newspapers
Periodicals
IV. Diaries, Memoirs, Miscellaneous
V. Biographies, Histories, Special Studies, Articles
Index |
An Artist's View of the Modern Music Biz 210
An anonymous reader writes "A member of the band OK Go wrote an interesting open letter giving an artist's perspective on the current state of the music business and how labels finance producing, distributing, and marketing music and music videos. A very insightful perspective of 'both sides': the argument that music and music videos are meant to be heard and, in the case of the latter, seen by a wide audience; and the argument that the money needs to come from somewhere. Unfortunately, the letter doesn't address the perspective outsiders have of outlandish salaries in the music labels, but it is interesting nonetheless." Their new video is not bad either.
Should Have Grown Organically (Score:5, Insightful)
So what’s there to do? On the macro level, well, who the hell knows? There are a lot of interesting ideas out there, but this is not the place to get into them.
So where is the place to get into that sort of brainstorming?
... the smug assholes who ran labels, who’d want a system where a handful of corporate overlords shove crap down our throats?
Ah, that's where it will be decided. I have low expectations for what comes out of that.. I personally think that Ok Go are talented enough to sit down in a barn somewhere with basic recording equipment and I'd buy it. Their music video with them on treadmills fly them to success, not EMI. The obvious answer is that's a harder route for the big acts. It takes more work, like you actually have a job forty hours a week. And the attitude toward that option is:
We're a rock band, and it’s a great gig. Not just because we get to snort drugs off the Queen of England (we do), but because the only thing we are expected to do is make cool stuff.
But in the end we all suffer from bands 'selling out' to labels. I personally think no one suffers more than the bands. Some fans can comply with the ridiculous terms but you lose a lot. I would point to this small milestone in Ok Go's career as something of note to new musicians. If you believe in yourself, don't rely on a label to grow. If it doesn't work at least you weren't artificially installed singing someone else's music putting together an executive's vision.
If only Ok Go could decide that their new video is embeddable, most would have watched it on Slashdot right now instead of the 1/2 of us that clicked on the link. Unfortunately they already sold their soul to the devil so it doesn't matter what they think is good for them now. The funny thing about this is that I'm vacationing in Grand Cayman right now and while I own every single album and EP and even vinyl records from Ok Go, I can't see this video on account of what they wrote in their post:
This video contains content from EMI. It is no longer available in your country.
Good luck guys. I think you traded early growth that would have came naturally for some control over what you love. It's sad but it's the way it is now.
Wow, Why Didn't I Think of That?!? (Score:4, Insightful)
What they 'need' is to grow organically to the point of extreme popularity
And it's Just. That. Simple!!
Re:Wow, Why Didn't I Think of That?!? (Score:4, Informative)
What can labels & conglomerates provide that can't be provided by other already-existing companies or persons?
Studio time isn't necessarily done by the labels; there's tons of independent and in-home studios out there. Ditto on mixing.
Marketing? There's tons of marketing agencies.
Advertising? See above.
Pressing CDs? Although the technology will likely be obsolete in the next 20 years, all the labels do is make the order and pay for it. I don't doubt an artist with sufficient money could make the order themselves.
Music videos? Look at the work, say, Monty Oum does by himself on his free time. Imagine what a single man employed in that field (or a small company) could do.
In short, there's nothing labels do that artist couldn't contract out themselves. Labels will collapse under their own weight soon enough, I'm sure.
Re:Wow, Why Didn't I Think of That?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
The other thing you cover - but sort of miss on - is the money. Marketing? Yes - tons of agencies. Just give them a check that won't bounce. CD's - sure, again that check that won't bounce. These things would be very expensive for me to attempt. I don't know about others. I guess you can incorporate and take out a small business loan? Maybe? Anyway, if you just want to be a band that has day jobs and puts some free stuff on the internet - sure - cheap. No problem. But "it takes money to make money" and the labels give them a way to do that (hate them or not, that's what they do).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's the thing: Youtube and other social networks are now _way_ more important now for promotion than classic radio, especially for a band that
Re:Wow, Why Didn't I Think of That?!? (Score:5, Informative)
As someone mentioned above, the alternative is to "grow organically" which really means grow very very slowly. In many cases, these bands have grown slowly. They have had regular jobs to pay for their equipment. They play tiny gigs at small bars in their home town, and they've probably worked really hard doing, essentially, two jobs, for a long time to get to the point of being recognized by a label. They have barely enough money to buy guitars and a car to get to the next gig, much less move their recording and promotion to the level that a label can offer.
EDIT: Re:Wow, Why Didn't I Think of That?!? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy a mike, some foam, learn to be an sound engineer or get one to join the band, pay someone for hosting your website or pull out a 486 and learn how to host it yourself. Sell yourself to everyone you know, and give your music away for free.
OR, promise 90% of all revenue you ever generate, give up ownership of your works, sell out to a label so they can deal with all that business
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Labels write checks. That's what no one else does. They are very much like loan sharks, the interest rate on the checks they write are terrifying, but if you are a small band, or a young band, many times you can afford tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to do all those things you mentioned above.
There's one other difference. They forgive the loans if the band can't pay them back. This may seem like very thin gruel if you're working on what seems like indentured servitude for years to make your act
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If people have X disposable income that they're willing to spend on music then you'll likely not see much of a decrease in terms of the industry as a whole. But that money will be far more spread around, and more of it will be going directly to the artists.
The problem with his thinking is that the money doesn't "come from" anywhere. It's a person's, potentially a fan's, money, and as long as you don't try to sell them more music than they can reasonably listen to they will pay for it.
Re: (Score:2)
That's the great thing about free market capitalism: if the better way is really just that simple, then someone will do it.
Of course, the contrapositive of this statement is that if someone hasn't done it already, then it's really not just that simple (but some people find this view a little challenging).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the replies to the article sounds like a record company person, and i think part of it sums it up quit succinctly;
"Need" is obviously contingent on your band wanting to achieve certain things, none of which are *necessary*. To achieve those things, you needed some money you didn't have, and decided to sacrifice some freedom with your music, in exchange for the advance money.
Re:Should Have Grown Organically (Score:5, Insightful)
Ironically, as a musician or band, you won't get a major label offer until you are successful enough to attract the attention of a label. That means you're making enough money that they could make money off of you. So at that point, why sign? If you're not that successful yet, no one will offer you a deal anyhow, so it's not even a problem for you.
Your choices in summary:
1. sign and get slightly better promotion for a huge reduction in your personal profit
2. don't sign, get the promotion your music warrants on its own and keep all your own profits
If you're all that good, you're gonna make way more money at #2. If you're terrible and somehow you get a big advance because of #1, believe me, the label will find a way to claw that money back from you.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
When my beloved Decemberists moved from Kill Rock Stars to Capitol Records, I wondered what the reason was.
Whatever their reasons, the result was hugely more ambitious records - in terms of production values and sheer number of instruments - and more ambitious live shows. I suspect that with all the extra gear, these were expensive shows to put on. Kill Rock Stars probably couldn't have handled that much cashflow.
But, they left it late. Colin Meloy of the band said:
We felt that in some ways, if we continued putting out records on [Kill Rock Stars], we'd totally be fine. But we also felt like we needed to kind of up the ante a little bit. One should only move to a major label when one can pretty much call the shots.
It seems as if being handled by a major be
Re: (Score:2)
Ironically, as a musician or band, you won't get a major label offer until you are successful enough to attract the attention of a label. That means you're making enough money that they could make money off of you. So at that point, why sign?
Well, now there is no reason any more. The reason used to be that labels owned the distribution channels, so you couldn't sound on radio or TV without them, even if you were a huge gig. Without them, you would not sound on TV or radio.
Now things are different, but labels still pretend to own the media and some bands fall for it, like OK go did.
Re: (Score:3)
1. sign and get slightly better promotion for a huge reduction in your personal profit
More importantly, personal CONTROL. Reel Big Fish made some kick-ass CDs before they signed. The one with the clown on the cover sucked. It was their first major lable CD. An artist who has someone telling him how to make his art is like a scientist with a guy with an MBA telling him how to do science. The good, effective ones aren't led by the nose by someone whose only goal is to make money.
Re:Should Have Grown Organically (Score:5, Insightful)
I highly recommend the movie Anvil before you make these kind of ridiculous claims again. The problem with these claims is they assume that bands have the time and skills to be marketeers, travel and booking agents, and accountants. Oddly enough it's possible the musicians might NOT be good at one or more of these thing.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When the music pays for 100% of your time to work on the music... what are you signing up with a label for?
I know at least one band who does everything on their own. They're happy doing what they're doing, and as long as they're happy together, make enough money to pay for their touring, their rent and their groceries, they consider themselves to have "made it".
If the "product" doesn't have that kind of demand, the only thing a record label could do would be to change your image, change your sound and
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
For the same reason a politician aligns himself with a major political party. Would Obama be president right now without the backing of the Democratic party? I assure you, he would not. Likewise, no artist could possibly reach the levels of worldwide fame that people like Beyonce and Taylor Swift enjoy without the backing of a major label.
As to your argument about a "huge reduction in your personal profit," that simply isn't true. While the percentage is certainly lower, 40% of a million dollars is far
Re:Should Have Grown Organically (Score:5, Insightful).
Meanwhile, the band across the road gets a record deal, grows faster than organically, and is playing stadiums while you're still growing a fanbase into your 30s.
The difference between a bank loan and a record company advance is that the record label is taking some of the risk. They can do it because they aggregate it across many acts, most of whom will fail, a few of whom will succeed well enough to fund the rest. Unfortunately we see that bands typically build up a debt to their record company, and that's a shame.
I personally think that Ok Go are talented enough to sit down in a barn somewhere with basic recording equipment and I'd buy it. Their music video with them on treadmills fly them to success, not EMI.
But without EMI, would you even have been exposed to that video? There's hundreds of thousands of bands out there that are good enough for you buy their output. It's record companies' promotional efforts that typically make some of them more commercially successful than others.
I guess there are some organic successes out there (Jonathan Coulter?) - but they'll remain the exception rather than the rule.
Re:Should Have Grown Organically (Score:5, Insightful)
If the label is keeping most of the money to themselves via Hollywood accounting or what not then what's the benefit again? That more people will buy albums and merch that goes in to the label's coffers that you still won't get a decent piece of?
All of your 'point' seems to come down to "the label will make you a hit faster so you can retire early without needing a standard 30-40 year career like everyone else".
To an extent that's right. As much as super-rich bands like U2 etc. are the exception when it comes to major label acts, I can't think of a single indie act that's raked in megabucks.
Becoming a hit faster sounds like a facile aim - but pop music is an ephemeral thing. A certain kind of act - and acts I personally value - are all about the performers' youth and vigour. If you give them 5 years to build up a grassroots fanbase, they'll have faded out before anyone's heard of them.
Classy of you do demean my 'point' by putting quotes around it.
Re: (Score:2)
In the business/tech world you can either grow organically, or accept venture capital to grow bigger, faster to try and take advantage of market opportunities.
To do so means you give up some rights, have to have some IP protection or something to help guarantee that the VC investment has a chance to pay off.
Most reasonable people don't expect everything to be free, but I think most are tired of the VC/Labels emptying your pocket for products
Re: (Score:2)
I can't think of a single indie act that's raked in megabucks.
They're out there [cnn.com]. They may be in "niche" markets, but they're out there. I don't know how you define it but $14.5 million per year qualifies as "megabucks" to me.
Re: (Score:2)
I can't think of a single indie act that's raked in megabucks.
They're out there [cnn.com]. Any way you cut it, $14.5 million per year qualifies as "megabucks" to me.
Re: (Score:2)
But without EMI, would you even have been exposed to that video?
Yes... I've only every seen this video on YouTube and not because of any advertzing from EMI.
How did you find it on YouTube? Follow the chain of cause and effect, and I bet you find real marketing effort from EMI's promotion people is at base of it.
Re: (Score:2)
if it's that easy why haven't banks pushed into lending to musicians before and instead poured money into RE? reason is that most music acts lose money and banks like stability with a lower interest rate than lending to 10 acts and losing money on 9 of them. banks also want something called collateral in a lot of cases. a lot of rich people like Annie Lebowitz who borrowed a lot of live in luxury put up a lot of their works and property as collateral. same with Michael Jackson. He signed over a lot of prope
Re: (Score:2)
I personally think that Ok Go are talented enough to sit down in a barn somewhere with basic recording equipment and I'd buy it.
You say that, but you probably would never have heard of them if it weren't for marketing from a record label.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting).
There's an assumption implicit here that is all too common: That music needs to be a business, or even that record sales, radio play, the stuff record companies are seen to be good for, are a viable source of income for a large portion of musicians these days. Most of the bands and projects I listen to are far too obscure to make any significant cash on sales of recordings. They don't get any radio play worth mentioning. They know selling music is not, and never will be, something they can rely on as a sign
Things you might need a label for (Score:3, Insightful)
I also don't understand why he thinks that artists 'need' record labels.
You need a label to get phonorecords* of your work into stores because the labels have relationships with the stores' buyers, especially if your genre is more popular among people with no PC, people with a PC and no Internet, or people with PC and dial-up. (Country music and pop standards come to mind.) You need a label because the recognized experts in record marketing work for labels. In certain genres, you need a label to help clear the samples you may have used. You may even need a label to help make s
Get out of the damned studios (Score:2)
I have never understood why bands spend months recording 30 minutes of music when they perform the same music live ALL THE FREAKING TIME. I myself would rather hear live music than stale perfection. How many takes do you have to splice to make one single recording -- how can you even call it your music any more when it is the recording editor who does all the hard work of listening for pointless variations in takes to make a recording which is going to be heard thru earbuds anyway?
I know why. It's becaus
Re: (Score:2)
I also don't understand why he thinks that artists 'need' record labels. What they 'need' is to grow organically...
Well I'm sure that at least part of the problem is that you "need" the labels because the labels exist. Ok, that's a weird way of putting it, but here's the thing: to some extent, industries also need to grow organically. They need to develop business models and trade organizations and conventional ways of doing things and bla bla bla. Right now, record labels are filling that void, and we won't develop real alternatives until there's nothing filling that void.
Imagine your a musician. You're not a busi
Other artist's insight (Score:5, Informative)
David Byrne (of Talking Heads fame) did a fantastic article for Wired [wired.com] a few years ago about this. He discusses (with details!) how the music industry works, some of the "models" of releasing music, and the economics/incentives to each one. Great read.
On a semi-related note, it's also worth looking at Steve Albini's now classic essay "The Problem With Music [mercenary.com]", which showcases how horrible the modern music industry is to musicians. It was written before the whole "digital revolution", but it helps remind me why I don't feel sympathy for suits in the music business.
And Another From 2000 (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
if Courtney Love doesn't like it she can record in her garage like David Grohl and just release to iTunes with no promotion and hope someone finds her music. then she can save up to pay the upfront costs of the tour and risk her own money and property.
cry babies have people giving them millions of dollars up front with a lot of risk of the loss of investment and they think they deserve more but they don't want to risk their own money for their ventures.
Re: (Score:2)
if Courtney Love doesn't like it she can record in her garage like David Grohl and just release to iTunes with no promotion and hope someone finds her music.
Unless that "someone" happens to be an incumbent music publisher, accusing you of copying a tune written by one of the songwriters managed by the publisher.
Re: (Score:2)
so then hire a lawyer and fight it out in court or don't make music that sounds too much like someone else's music.
How do I make sure I haven't plagiarized? (Score:4, Insightful)
so then hire a lawyer and fight it out in court
How can someone growing organically afford what a lawyer charges?
or don't make music that sounds too much like someone else's music.
If I've written and recorded a song, how do I check my song against the millions of songs controlled by the major performance rights organizations (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) before I publish my recording?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering that Love has spent most of the last decade in legal wrangling over the very copyrights she seems to decry (copyrights she's now apparently the sole holder of thanks to a heavy dose of herion, a shotgun, and entertainment lawyers that sided with her over the guys that were you know, actually in Nirvana, not thanks to her own work), then leveraged those evil nasty copyrights into a cushy 30 million dollar deal that lets us all enjoy Kurt Cobain as part of Madden...er...guitar hero 17 while she ca
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I found this [toomuchjoy.com] an interesting look at how labels treat their bands, and it kind of straddles the 'digital revolution'. It's a blog entry about an unrecouped band trying to get digital sales credited on their statement, to hilarious effect.
Microsoft got it right with Zune (Score:2)
never had a Zune, but liked the Zune Pass idea. too much music out there to buy all the CD's i'd want to listen to. at some point it's wasted money having hundreds of CD's sitting around being listened to once a year or less often. I'd rather just pay $15 a month to rent the music. I wouldn't trust Real with it. Zune was just a crappy device compared to the iphone/touch. too much wasted potential of it being just a music player. Apple I would trust to pay for this service. Google is spyware.
Re: (Score:2)
Apple I would trust to pay for this service. Google is spyware.
What? Seriously?
Re: (Score:2)
I get all the free music I need from the radio. Now excuse me while I go buy some bottled water...
Promotion (Score:3, Interesting)
This used to be selling CDs. Seeing as nobody buys CDs any more, this should be music downloads or live tours/merchandise. (I'm sure someone with a bit more time on their hands can dig out a link to that graph showing which people are making money out of music now).
If your record label is spending a fortune on making your video and then not allowing certain countries to see it, then you're not going to be making money from those countries (or not as much as you could). It's not like there is an incremental cost involved in allowing it to go on other blogs/other country's youtube. It's just that the record label is being greedy because they think they can get some money out of them, at the cost of the band's image.
Re: (Score:2)
However it has never been easier for musicians to go independent. It's cheaper than ever to get good recording technology. It's easier to distribute to masses
Re: (Score:2)
You said "but I'm presuming the music company take an artist/band they think will make money and attempt to make them even more money whilst making themselves a bit on top"
Regarding your presumption, The industry takes a band they think will make money for them and utilize the band as one would kleenex or toilet paper. The welfare of the band is never a consideration. It's all show. Even a successful band won't see profit till the 3rd HIT album, maybe. It all goes back to
Re: (Score:2)
A Better Perspective from a Real Pro (Score:2, Informative)
This article barely tells anything. You want a real close up perspective? read this : [negativland.com]
.
It's a tell all by Steve Albini, producer of Nirvanas last album and member of Big Black and Rapeman
When you read this , you will see why I hate the industry soooooo much and am dedicated to its death.
So read this and get out your p2p and help kill the industry to make the world safe for music and musicians.
"the money needs to come from somwhere" (Score:3, Interesting).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
just a minor point: public libraries aren't free. they're a shared cost institution, getting their funding from numerous taxpayer sources. [ed.gov]
Question:
From what sources are state libraries funded?
Response:
Revenue
Sources of state library agency revenue are the federal government, state governments, and other sources, such as local, regional, or multi-jurisdictional sources. State library agencies may also receive income from private sources, such as foundations, corp
Re: (Score:2)
just a minor point: public libraries aren't free. they're a shared cost institution, getting their funding from numerous taxpayer sources.
True, but beside the point. You're paying taxes whether or not you use the library, and checking out a book costs you nothing.
Re:"the money needs to come from somwhere" (Score:4, Insightful)
If I give my local corner shop a thousand pounds a month, and they agree to let me help myself to sweets whenever I feel like it, I don't think those sweets are costing me nothing just because I don't have to pay him cash each with each transaction...
Re:"the money needs to come from somwhere" (Score:4, Informative)
Your example is obviously flawed - libraries do not cost each person $1000 a month in taxes, besides the fact that it would be pretty difficult to eat $1000 worth of sweets in a month (by yourself), meaning the value proposition is so low that no one would take up that offer.
It's not really necessary and I doubt anyone will even read my post, but I've always wanted to do a slashdot style back-of-the-envelope calculation... so here goes.
Let's assume the previous post was correct, and libraries cost $1.1 billion a year. To keep it simple I'll use state taxes only, which is listed as $895 million. Wikipedia says total state tax revenue (in 2007) was $749,785,186,000 ($750 billion). So, 0.001% of state tax revenue was spent on libraries. Very likely there are local/city taxes that could be significant, but the previous poster showed that states provide the largest source of library funding.
In 2005, at $38,206 per capita the average state tax rate was 9.8% (source [taxfoundation.org]). So, about $3,750 in taxes was paid per person, on average, to the state(s) where they did business (these numbers include taxes from states besides those the person resides in, such as sales tax on out-of-state purchases, but doesn't include federal taxes). 0.001% of that is 4 cents, and that's for the whole year... 0.3 cents/month.
Let's assume my math and the figures I used are bad, and it's actually significantly higher. Say, one hundred times higher... $4 a year is still a heck of a good deal for everything that libraries provide to those who use them, and if you never ever use the library, you can write off the expense (pun intended), considering how small it is, as part of "buying civilization" as the well-known slashdot sig goes, just like you probably don't directly use a lot of the other things state, local, and federal taxes pay for (and you don't get to pick and choose what your money goes toward).
Your sweets example is obviously different, because sweets can't be almost endlessly re-used like books and DVDs from the library can (I suppose you could try with sweets, but...) That's why, of course, such a pre-payment scheme as you suggest wouldn't work for food (although all-you-can-eat buffets are an interesting thing to consider), but why the original point stands... you are pre-paying for the library, but it's a minuscule amount that more or less equals nothing, especially when compared to the value it potentially provides to you.
Re:"the money needs to come from somwhere" (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think you understand how a library operates. The books don't just appear out of thin air and Librarians don't volunteer their time. It all costs money. In this case, taxpayer money.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The established industry is going about digital data backwards. They should use MP3s like thay use radio -- a free lure to get people to shell out cash for physical items.
In an increasingly virtual world, what physical items are you going to be selling? Food and shelter?
Re: (Score:2)
In an increasingly virtual world, what physical items are you going to be selling?
You could check books out from the library, why would anybody buy a copy? Because people like to OWN things. I hold no value in my digital music collection, which is far larger than my CD, record, and tape collection, but I value the physical copies. They're MINE. My digital collection is not.
Having only digital copies does make sense if you live in a dorm. Otherwise, the valuable ones are the physical. Non-physicality is wort
Re: (Score:2)
Because people like to OWN things.
Yeah, people like to own things. Like a house, or a computer.
Having only digital copies does make sense if you live in a dorm. Otherwise, the valuable ones are the physical. Non-physicality is worthless.
Why? The song sounds the same whether it is being played from a physical CD or a rip stored on your hard drive. Nobody really cares that you own the CD case with its cheap artwork.
Your money would be much better put toward things that people actually care about.
Re: (Score:2)
Why don't they sell CDs with proper artwork, booklets, etc. then?
Re: (Score:2)
Why don't they sell CDs with proper artwork, booklets, etc. then?
Why would they? Nobody wants it.
Re: (Score:2)
Why? The song sounds the same whether it is being played from a physical CD or a rip stored on your hard drive. Nobody really cares that you own the CD case with its cheap artwork.
I think this is a generational thing. People who grew up with vinyl, where some releases would come in very ornate packaging - gatefolds, embossing, inserts, tracing paper layers, etc. miss all that. Those artefacts were a complete package -- you'd listen to the music, and spend a lot of time looking at and experiencing the packaging.
Think of those fetishistic Apple unboxing videos.
Even when we were giving mixtapes to our friends, we'd make box art, to turn them into artefacts.
With CDs, some of that continu
Re: (Score:2)
Meh. I'm a huge music fan, and spend a lot of money on CDs etc. I have no interest in T-shirts and rarely go to concerts (largely because most of the artists I listen to don't really play concerts). So if that model were adopted and the recordings were made free, their income from me would drop to basically zero. Of course I'm sure the income from other people would go up from zero, so maybe it'd balance out.
I really have no issue with the current model other than (a) the lawsuits are clearly over the top a
Re: (Score:2)
Concert tickets and T-Shirts
A common enough suggestion. But there are genres of music that are not amenable to concert performance. And there are genres of music whose fans aren't the types to clamour after T-shirts proclaiming their musical taste.
Are we saying that those kinds of music don't deserve to get made? (Or don't deserve to be self-financing, at least).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful).
So, what you're saying is that you support DRM? Because that's what a library is. It's a place to temporarily get your hands on content, consume it, and then give it back. You have no rights to copy/distribute the work you BORROWED. That is what a DRM'ed DVD or MP3 is. You borrow that content. People really need to stop using libraries as some sort of "proof" that free access to content does not deprive money from the creator of the content.
Re: (Score:2)
That is what a DRM'ed DVD or MP3 is. You borrow that content.
I own the physical copy of the DVD. I can resell it, loan it out, set it on fire if I want. The idea of DRM is irrelevant to the subject. DRM or no, you don't own digital data.
Even if you buy a book, you don't own the novel, you own the book. The only restrictions borrowed books have over bought books is you have to give them back.
In the essay I pointed to, Doctorow mentions that nobody ever went broke from piracy, but many artists have gone hung
Re: (Score:2)
in a library you have to wait for a new book or the one you want. i want to borrow some CD's but they are in a branch that's an hour away and i don't want to spend the time going there. all the kids want what they want NOW
Re: (Score:2)
That is a bizarre example to give.
At least here in the UK, libraries are funded out of taxes, they don't make a profit; and yes, you have "free" acce
Re: (Score:2)
America isn't the only country with libraries, you know. And the fact that most books (and DVDs and CDs you can check out from a library) aren't nonfiction reinforces my point rather than diminishing it.
Re: (Score:2)
My wife is a librarian, so I know a little about this. The reason that the proportion of non-fiction is lower is two-fold. Firstly, the demand is dropping. Libraries are paid for by the taxpayer and it's hard to justify not stocking the kinds of items they ar
Sure, what the hell (Score:4, Interesting)
In the spirit of making it without a major label and needing a little exposure for my own work, here are four free tracks off the ambient album I'm working on: [livingwithanerd.com]. These are 100% DRM and cost free. Enjoy!
Re: (Score:2)
Awesome, good for you.
If you make similar posts on other websites, I offer the advice that you hyphenate your last sentence: "These are 100% DRM- and cost-free." Otherwise the sentence has nearly the opposite meaning.
Great luck!
Re: (Score:2)
doy, lol.
Thanks for the advice and the good vibes:-)
Um, what was that argument again? (Score:2, Interesting) la
Re:Um, what was that argument again? (Score:4, Insightful)
After having watched the video linked to from OP, I have to ask: why did that video take a music label to finance it, film it, produce it, distribute it? label! And the band would be happy to cooperate if given credit, because they would be famous, if only for a little while.
The video is decent, but there is nothing there that requires any fancy label support or financing. I have seen more impressive shows by high school bands, and I mean that quite literally and sincerely.
Sorry, but the actual product does not back their arguments. I call bullshit.
Others are doing it successfully. If OK Go can't... well... I won't lose sleep over it.
1) Cameras, 2) Camera crews, 3) studio engineers, 4) distribution of video, 5) promotion and marketing and licensing of the video (which involves slashdot's favorite group of people: lawyers), 6) production of the song, 6a) studio engineers, 6b) hired musicians to complement some tracks, 6c) cd/vinyl pressings, 6d) distribution of album.
Do you actually need a label to do all this? No, of course not. But you need money. You need capital to invest. Where will you get it? previous comments have pointed out that banks aren't going to loan musicians money to make an album, but labels will.
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't the point though that if all you end up with is a mediocre YouTube video, then a huge chunk of the cost of that video was a waste of money, and you might as well hav
Re: (Score:2)
Did you actually read the article? It was the six months producing the album that the track behind the video was taken from that cost all the money.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It was the six months producing the album that the track behind the video was taken from that cost all the money.
Basically all that money went to the label and their minions, it just had to be loaned to the band first to leave them in debt to the label. Steve Albini explained this process much better than I ever could [negativland.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Cue lots of people claiming you could get the same standard of recording/production/mastering in a bedroom studio for $1000.
Let's pre-empt them. If the band thought they could do it that cheaply, they'd do it. They don't think they can.
You should read the article (Score:2)
Especially if you are going to post critically about something, it will help you if you read the article first. It specifically mentions that they do their own videos so as to keep the costs down.
One post worth a million RIAA's (Score:5, Insightful)
If the music industry had people who could write like that speaking for them, they would be a lot better off. I mean, the whole thing with the music business isn't even the idea of copyrighted content. It's that, they are such jerks. How well you interact with the plug is indescribably valuable in an age where everyone can know how you really act. If they were making the soft sell, if they were leading out with "we gave Madonna millions of dollars and she's been a total bust since she got old", rather that suing college kids or octomoms, then, people would be more receptive to their arguments. I mean, Google's "Don't be evil", is nice and all, but for a lot of businesses, its really, "don't be such a dick".
FoxxxyPregnantMILFS.com (Score:2, Offtopic)
Can't find server. wtf?
Music should be free (Score:3, Interesting)
If music is "good" (opinions will vary according to taste) people will listen to it repeatedly, word will spread, and people will become fans of the creators of that music - wanting to own something to demonstrate their fandom: A CD, an MP3, a t-shirt, a ticket to the next gig etc... This is what makes getting fans more important than "selling cds" to most artists. Fans are LOVE followed by INCOME (You're not going to stop a year old girl from buying the next Hanna Montana, for example).
Distributors (most labels), on the other hand, are only interested in those revenue streams they can tie up for shortterm income - which creates one-hit-wonders, mediocre boybands, and starves out 99% of musicians - as well as actually alienating real fans and bands - driving a wedge between them. (for example: many record companies hold the rights to most full times bands music - and can override a bands decision on how they want to get their material out to fans, as exemplified in the article above).
Now: If it's not "good" music to begin with -. people won't listen to it -despite whether it is freely available or not. People *might* check it out out of curiosity - but won't return, and certainly won't put money into it if the y have a choice. If they did already they will feel burned.
Professional distributors promote very much according to a "pay-to-try policy: they limit access to the extra songs on albums, demand roylaties from indy web radio stations..control the airwaves and promote airplay for only the (most commercial track) single across any medium (radio, itunes etc) that will take it. This is why so much "Bad music" gets aired - in case you wonder why the charts are filled with shite (But you already knew that cos its a conspiracy theory and this is Slashdot).
Anyway: The income generated from "good music" by fans is largely independent of this supersale effort by the labels.... so arguably the best model for these bands, as exemplified by bands like Radiohead and 9-inch... is to actually give the shit away for free: They can recoup the "first sale" profit by attracting more fans. Ironically most musicians have dreamed of "The record deal" since they were 5 years old... so usually they are actually the most reluctant to risk this sales model - preferring the safety of servitude to a label over the risk of pushing "valueless music" (if its free it aint worth much, right?).
Also: as this model starts to become more popular.. a lot of smaller bands will get lost in the noise. Maybe less millionaires will get made, but in the long run this is a much better world to play music in. I like it anyway.. but then I found a day job.
Shameless plug: My music (with money goes mouth) is available at Stabbing Pixies [stabbingpixies.com]/ it will never hit the Billboards
Musicians need labels to become famous (Score:4, Funny)
I completely agree that having a major record-label contract is the one and only way for a musician to achieve the highest levels of success. To that end, can anybody remind me of who the labels were for Bach, Brahms, and Beethoven? The thing is, those great musicians had it so much easier than musicians today. Back then it was just so much easier to get your music out to a wide audience. Today, that's nearly impossible.
Re:Musicians need labels to become famous (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the day, musicians often had patrons. Bach, for example, was subsidized by his church, and Mozart got paid by various high muckety-mucks to writes pieces for them.
These days, very few people have the funds to exclusively subsidize a musician or artist. But we can all subsidize artists a little bit by purchasing their CDs— a little more if we purchase them directly. For example, we buy CDs directly from Devin Townsend, from Canada, thanks to the magic of the Internet. I don't know if he makes a complete living from his music sales but he does well enough to make it more than a hobby. (He's also decently well-known from his label days, on his own and as a member of other bands.)
Personally, I think individual sites or clearinghouse sites are the answer that will eventually come out on top, but I hope a little bit of the subsidizing sticks around.
Re: (Score:2)
Didn't they have patrons instead?
I prefer non-embedded videos. (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact if I see an embedded video, I will frequently go through the gyrations to extract the link and watch it in a separate window in YouTube.
Why?
1. I get to see comments and related videos directly.
2. If I want to share the video, I have to extract the link anyway.
Don't do <embed>, do <a target=_blank
...>.
RIAA gradated response plan (Score:3, Insightful)
I concluded 7 years ago that there was really no hope for the current music industry, and that the only rational thing to do was to wait for it to crater. Nothing has changed, except the smell of desperation is ever more palpable. Yesterday, I heard Steve Marks of RIAA talked about their graduated response [arstechnica.com] plan. He denied it was a "3 strikes plan," which of course means that it is. It is no more likely to work than any of their previous plans.
Someone asked me afterwards why the industry continues to be so disastrously stupid. All I could come up with is that the people executing the stupidity are getting paid, and paid well, for continuing to hold out hope to the old men running the business that things can get put back the way that they were. As long as the people in charge have such delusions, and as long as they still have something to be in charge of, nothing will change,
Of course, bands like OK Go are basically serfs in this process. As they admit, they have no actual power whatsoever, and are just along for the ride.
In the words of the immortal Frank Zappa (Score:2)
No Paid Downloads? (Score:2, Interesting)
The article bemoans the death of CD sales, and makes some decent points, but it's got a weird blind spot around paid digital downloads. Isn't iTunes the largest music retailer in the US now? Am I the last person who's happy to pay for music in a format, and with a level of convenience, that I like? I haven't bought a new CD in years, but between iTunes and Amazon MP3, I've got vastly more at my fingertips than any CD store ever sold.
Lets check some Created On dates, and see what I've spent money on in the p
Jonathan Byrd... (Score:3, Interesting)
Independent singer/songwriter Jonathan Byrd [jonathanbyrd.com] released his own financial statement for 2008 [jonathanbyrd.com]. (You'll have to scroll down to his 3/28/2009 update for it).
I was amused by his summary:
Bigger problem (Score:3, Insightful)
1. The music industry has become a leach. They started out as doing three things - producing, marketing and distributing. Distributing was the hard work and where the customers were willing to pay big money for (transporting delicate wax tubes was very dificult, vinyl was slightly better but breakage was still a big problem. Tapes and CDs were lighter and sturdier, but still heavy.) But a better producer and marketer made more money, so they THOUGHT they were being paid for producing and marketing. No. They were being paid for distributing, and that market has vanished the way the buggy whip and the horse drawn carriage market has. They still try to charge as if they are distributing, but they are not.
2. Musicians still need Producing and Marketing, but those are worth only about 20% or MAYBE 30% of sales, not 80% that the big labels have. But the existing monoplies (that grew up charging 80% for distribution) make it hard to break in to the Producing + Marketing (no distribution). This problem will eventually go away, but it will take time.
3. The old distrubution system was so big and powerfull that it evolved into THE methods of transferring money to the musicians as well as the way to transfer music out. The ease of distrubtion has created a ton of tiny producers and removed the old 'gateways' that funnelled money and goods to the succesfull ones. We need a new SYSTEM, not of distrubtion, but of funneling money.
What we need is a breakthrough in marketing. Something that lets low level musicians earn a living wage, and gradually increases as they gain more fans. Note there may never be a band as big as the Beatles or Elvis or M. Jackson, ever again because of the greater range of music that should be available without the gateways. Also, musicians will likely never again be able to make money without performing live. People will always pay more to see live music than they will for a recording because honestly, recordings are commodities.
Perhaps music clubs could form in large cities where people pay a set fee, similar to a gym membership. Each night the club offers live music performed. Membership lets you in for free AND lets you download the music for free whenever you want from any oif the club's bands.
Or maybe somethign far better than what I can think of.
Re:A non-story. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're somewhat right - but I thought since all kinds of people are putting in their two cents, I may as well. A bit of context - my father is a professional musician, and I spend a lot of other professionals - from moderately recognizable artists on big labels to the 20 year olds working their ass off gigging in crappy bars with crappy patrons trying to do better.
There are two sides to the music business, and surprisingly most people know which direction the business is going. I've had extended conversations with managers that got this amazingly well. Oddly enough, this article doesn't get it.
The music industry is reverting to a performance-based system. You won't make money on CDs. You won't make money on music videos. The only people that don't want to admit this is the higher-ups in the labels, because that is the ONLY place where the labels make money. Artist make their money off of performance. Labels CAN still exist - in fact, they should. But they're an advertising and marketing company - and they should work for you like one. Why the hell does an advertising company want to STOP its content from being seen?
Once you admit that, then everything starts to get easier. Labels, CDs and videos exist only to promote performances - and the performances get easier. Better venues, higher cover charges, people actually there for your music instead of the beer.
Oh. And the article seems to make out that the labels are hurting. They're not, amazingly. Trying to solicit sympathy for the poor corporations that exist to exploit your creative works
... why are you doing this? In other words, my comment to OK Go, tell your label that their restrictions on embedding are costing you performance revenue. And stop defending a multi-billion dollar industry that cannot seem to adapt to change.
Re: (Score:2)
Make that "spend time with a lot of other professionals". durr..
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
+1. Artists ALWAYS made money through concerts only. That was so 200 years ago, that was so 30 years ago, and that is so now. Yes, there are few exceptions, like Metallica, Beatles, Madonna, Michael Jackson who made it to platinum albums. But these are few and far between.
Yes, there was a period of time when labels came into existence and enjoyed their position for nearly a century. Well, Label people. You got it good while it lasted, so don't feel bitter now. Your time is over. Go back to doing actual work
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Expect when artists lose money through concerts.
It used to be - and may still be - quite common for venues to charge acts for the opportunity to play in front of an audience.
Fine, I guess, if you're performing for the fun of it.
Re: (Score:2)
quite common for venues to charge acts for the opportunity to play in front of an audience.
Of course they do. Assuming we're not talking about a hole in the wall nightclub, how else will they pay the bills? If the artist wants to be paid, they need to be able to bring customers that are willing to pay, and share some of the proceeds with the venue. If they can't, then is it unreasonable for them to pay to get themselves heard?
Of course, they can always convince some modern-day Medici to be their patron.
Not really a solution- live is a ripoff too. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not really a solution- live is a ripoff too. (Score:4, Interesting)
Your statement, while a valid opinion, doesn't reflect the fact that the market dictates that $100 a ticket is acceptable for some bands. Just because you don't want to pay it doesn't mean other people won't.
Plus you're talking about the huge huge groups. Even moderately famous groups don't rent stadiums, they still play in clubs and theater venues.
So... I'm not quite sure what you're arguing.
Re: (Score:2)
I totally agree with parent AC, GP is *NOT* offtopic, insightful even if funny, it's called a cartoon. I'll surely be modded down for this but it had to be said.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Radiohead were an established name. A huge established name.
They'd already done the whole thing of spending 6 months in a country house studio, spending record company money on the best producer, the best session musicians, equipment, acoustics, instruments, catering, etc. OK Computer was the epitome old school music industry album production.
4 albums later, they were still a huge name; of course they could get 1.2 million paid downloads for their new album. The same logic goes for Nine Inch Nails. Promotio |
Arts and entertainment calendar for Feb. 28
Updated: May 6, 2013 12:46PM
STAGE
“Empanada For a Dream”
Through March 16 at 16th Street Theater, 6420 16th St., Berwyn. Performances at 7:30 p.m. Thursdays and Fridays; 5 p.m. and 8 p.m. Saturdays. $18. Visit or call (708) 795-6704.
“Jeeves Takes a Bow”
Presented through March 3 by First Folio Theatre at Mayslake Peabody Estate, 1717 W. 31st St., Oak Brook. $30-$37; $26-$32 for seniors and students. Call (630) 986-8067 or visit.
“Our Village”
A two-person adaptation of a play that documents the history of Oak Park, presented at 8 p.m. March 8-9 at the Madison Street Theatre, 1010 Madison St., Oak Park. $12; $10 students and seniors. For tickets, call (708) 383-7400.
“Proof”
Performed March 7-April 7 at Court Theatre, 5535 S. Ellis Ave., Chicago. Performances at 7:30 p.m. Wednesdays and Thursdays; 8 p.m. Fridays; 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Saturdays; and 2:30 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. Sundays. $45-$65; $35-$45 for previews, March 7-15. Call (773) 753-4472 or visit.
“Seascape”
Presented by Oak Park Festival Theatre March 14-April 21 at the Madison Street Studio Theatre, 1010 Madison St., Oak Park. Curtain at 8 p.m. Thursday-Saturday; 3 p.m. Sundays. $25; $20 seniors; $15 students. Call (708) 445-4440 or visit www. oakparkfestival.com.
“Sunset Boulevard”
Through March 24 at Drury Lane Theatre, 100 Drury Lane, Oakbrook Terrace, seniors. Lunch and dinner theater packages available for $49.75-$68. Call (630) 530-0111 or visit.
CLASSICAL
Acappellago
The a cappella ensemble presents a musical celebration of the weather, “Escape to Blue Skies,” at 7:30 p.m. March 16 at Mayslake Peabody Estate, 1717 W. 31st St., Oak Brook. $15-$17. Visit or call (708) 484-3797.
Elmhurst Symphony Orchestra
“Great Love Stories,” 3 p.m. March 3 at Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, 149 Brush Hill Road, Elmhurst. WFMT program host Carl Grapentine will narrate the program, which features dancers from the Elmhurst Dance Theater. $29; $27 seniors; $7 students. Free concert preview with Ted Hatmaker at 1:45 p.m. Call (630) 941-0202 or visit.
Handel Week Festival
Concerts are held at Grace Episcopal Church, 924 Lake St., Oak Park. Visit or call (708) 524-0695. March 3, 3 p.m.: The Oratorio “Theodora.” $45.
The Orion Ensemble
Presenting “A Voice from Heaven,” featuring soprano Patrice Michaels, 7:30 p.m. March 13 at the PianoForte Salon in the Fine Arts Building, 410 S. Michigan Ave., Chicago. $26; $23 seniors; $10 students; admission is free for children 12 and younger. Call (630) 628-9591 or visit.
Symphony of Oak Park and River Forest
“Celestial Sojourn,” 4 p.m. March 3 at the Dominican University Performing Arts Center, 7900 W. Division St., River Forest. The program includes Mozart’s Symphony No. 41 “Jupiter” and Holst’s “The Planets.” $30 encore seating; $25 general admission seating; $25 seniors. Visit.
Unity Temple Concert Series
Held at Unity Temple, 875 Lake St., Oak Park, at 7:30 p.m. Saturdays. Tickets: $17-$33; proceeds benefit the restoration and upkeep of the historic Frank Lloyd Wright structure. (708) 445-8955.. April 27, 7:30 p.m.: Pianist Ian Hobson.
POP/FOLK/JAZZ
FitzGerald’s
6615 Roosevelt Road, Berwyn. (708) 788-2118.. Tuesdays, 9 p.m.: Open mic in the SideBar. Feb. 28, 9 p.m.: Expo ‘76 (rock). Free. March 1, 9 p.m.: Bumpus, Great Divide (rock). $10. March 3, 5:30 p.m.: Grandstand Big Band plus Woodridge High School Friends of Jazz. $10; $5 for 17 and under. March 6, 8 p.m.: Chicago Singer Spotlight, $8. March 6, 8 p.m.: “The SideBar Sessions” with The New Standard Quintet (jazz). $5. March 8, 9 p.m.: Elaine Stepter & the Jackson Street Band with guests The Great I Am, Fel Davis, comedian Dirty Red and DJ Mello (R&B). $20. March 9, 9 p.m.: Kids These Days with special guest Elaine Stepter (R&B). $15. March 10, 6 p.m.: Bill O’Connell’s Chicago Skyliners (jazz). $10; $5 for 17 and under. March 13, 8 p.m.: Wishbone Ash (rock). $25. March 13, 8 p.m.: “The SideBar Sessions” with Chris Madsen Group (jazz). $5. March 14, 8:30 p.m.: Axes of Evil with Chris Neville, David Blamires and Jon Paul (rock). Free. March 17, 5:30 p.m.: Jazz Community Big Band. $10; $5 17 and under. March 20, 7:30 p.m.: In Full Swing Big Band plus the Evanston High School Band (jazz). $10; $5 for 17 and under. March 20, 8 p.m.: “The SideBar Sessions” with Jarod Bufe Quartet (jazz). $5. March 21, 8 p.m.: Salty Dogs, The Fat Babies (jazz). $10. March 24, 6 p.m.: John Burnett Orchestra with Frieda Lee (jazz). $10; $5 17 and under. March 27, 8 p.m.: “The SideBar Sessions” with BakerzMillion (jazz). $5. March 29, 9 p.m.: Cannonball (rock). Free. April 4, 8 p.m.: Luke Winslow-King plus Alexis & the Samurai (roots rock). $10. May 3, 9 p.m.: Southern Culture on the Skids (rock). $18 in advance, $20 at the door. May 18, 9 p.m.: Chuck Prophet & the Mission Express (rock). $15 in advance; $18 at the door.
The New Budapest Orpheum Society
The Chicago-based ensemble will perform Jewish cabaret music and political songs from the turn of the century to the present at 8 p.m. March 9 at West Suburban Temple Har Zion, 1040 N. Harlem Ave., River Forest. The program of songs sung in German, Yiddish, Hebrew and English will include pieces composed for the golden age of German-Jewish and Yiddish film during the 1920s and 1930s. $35. Call (708) 366-9000 or e-mail [email protected].
Oak Park Public Library
Main Library, 834 Lake St. (708) 383-8200.. March 16, 3 p.m.: The Fuzz and the Fury perform blues, rock and soul. March 30, 3 p.m.: Golden Horse Ranch Band plays music for square dances, waltzes, contra and swing dances.
Pat Boone
Performing at 1:30 p.m. May 13-14 at Drury Lane Theatre, 100 Drury Lane, Oakbrook Terrace. $55 show only; $70 lunch and show. Call (630) 530-0111 or visit.
“Rhythm, Rhyme & Refrain”
The jazz concert series will be held at the Open Door Repertory Company, 902 S. Ridgeland, Oak Park. Performances are at 8 p.m. $15 per concert; $12 students and seniors. Call (708) 342-0810 or visit. March 2: Vocalist Abigail Riccards presents “Richard Rodgers: From Hart to Hammerstein.” March 9: Vocalist Elaine Dame presents “Something to Live For: The Strayhorn & Ellington Collaboration.” March 23: The Linda Solotaire Trio in “Dreams of You, the Sun, the Moon and Johnny Mercer.” June 1: Vocalist Spider Saloff presents “The Memory of All That: A Gershwin Celebration.” June 8: The Jeannie Tanner Quartet presents “Visions from Over the Rainbow: The Music of Harold Arlen.” June 15: Saalik Ziyad and Sarah Marie Young in “Chicago Duets Revisits the Rhythm & Rhyme Makers.”
Unity Temple Concert Series
Held at Unity Temple, 875 Lake St., Oak Park, at 7:30 p.m. Saturdays. Tickets: $17-$33; proceeds benefit the restoration and upkeep of the historic Frank Lloyd Wright structure. (708) 445-8955.. March 23, 7:30 p.m.: Shishonnah presents world music with classical and contemporary influences.
ART GALLERIES
Gallery Pink
149 Harrison St., Oak Park. (708) 648-3131.. Gallery hours are 1-5 p.m. Saturdays and Sundays or by appointment. Through March 30: “Possibilities,” paintings by Janice Elkins, ceramic sculpture by Gina Lee Robbins, and works by outsider artist Howard McClain.
Oak Park Arms Retirement Community
408 S. Oak Park Ave. (708) 386-4040.. Gallery hours: 9 a.m.-5 p.m. daily. Through March 15: Quilted wall hangings by Veronica Hallissey, an artist and author.
Oak Park Art League
720 Chicago Ave., Oak Park. (708) 386-9853.. Gallery hours are 1-5 p.m. Monday-Friday; 1-4 p.m. Saturdays. Through March 5: “Body Language,” an exhibit of artwork with the human figure as the subject. March 8-April 5: “Carved & Composed,” an exhibit of sculpture, photography, collage and digital media. Opening reception 7-9 p.m. March 8.
Oak Park Conservatory
615 Garfield St., Oak Park. (708) 386-4700.. March 1-April 30: “Intimate Perspective,” works by photographer Susannah Yong.
Oak Park Public Library
834 Lake St. (708) 383-8200.. March: “Façade,” an exhibit of art work by four local women — Maura Checconi Crubellati, Nancy Wisti Grayson, Ann Primack and Marcia Palazzolo. Opening reception, 3-5 p.m. March 10.
Triton College Art Gallery
Located in the Fine Arts Building (J-Building), 2000 Fifth Ave., River Grove. Call (708) 456-0300, ext. 3589, or visit. Through April 19: “My Home is My Brain,” paintings and drawings by Gabriel Villa. Reception from 6-9 p.m. March 1.
AUDITIONS & OPPORTUNITIES
Concerto competition
The Symphony of Oak Park & River Forest’s eighth annual Concerto Competition takes place March 16, and is open to all instrumental musicians who have not completed their high school senior year as of the time of the competition and whose primary residence is within 10 miles of Oak Park. The winner will receive $500 and will perform with the Symphony of Oak Park & River Forest at its May 13 concert. Application deadline is March 1. Call (708) 218-2648 or visit.
BENEFITS
Oak Park Festival Theatre
Champagne brunch benefit, at noon March 3 at The Carleton Hotel, 1110 Pleasant St., Oak Park, featuring scenes from upcoming productions, raffle and silent auction. $55. Register at.
Trustee Benefit Concert and Gala
Broadway singer Audra McDonald will perform at 5 p.m. March 9 in Dominican University’s Lund Auditorium, 7900 Division St., River Forest. Concert tickets start at $25. Tickets to the gala, including the concert, cocktail reception and dinner, are $350. Proceeds benefit student scholarships at Dominican University. Call (708) 488-5000 or visit.
BOOKS & POETRY
Centuries & Sleuths Bookstore
7419 W. Madison St., Forest Park. (708) 771-7243.. March 9, 11 a.m.: Sisters in Crime meeting with guest speaker Hank Phillipi Ryan, Boston investigative reporter and author. March 9, 2 p.m.: G.K. Chesterton Society of Chicago discusses Edmund Campion: Jesuit & Martyr by Evelyn Waugh. March 24, 2 p.m.: Clio’s Chroniclers History Discussion Group discusses Agent Zig Zag: A True Story of Nazi Espionage, Love and Betrayal by Ben Macintyre. March 16, 2 p.m.: Mystery Discussion Group discusses Involuntary Witness by Gianrico Carofiglio. April 10, noon: William Ken Krueger discusses and signs Ordinary Grace. April 13, 2 p.m.: G.K. Chesterton Society of Chicago discusses The Ball & the Cross. April 20, 2 p.m.: Mystery Discussion Group discusses Six Suspects by Vikas Swarup. April 28, 2 p.m.: Clio’s Chroniclers History Discussion Group discusses The War Lovers: Roosevelt, Lodge, Hearst and the Rush to Empire, 1898 by Evan Thomas.
Franklin Park Public Library
10311 Grand Ave, Franklin Park. (847) 455-6016. March 14, 7-8:30 p.m.: Franklin Park resident Kenneth C. Kent will hold a book signing event for his novel, Spy One.
Oak Park Public Library
Main Library, 834 Lake St. (708) 383-8200.. March 20, 1 p.m.: Discussion of Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand.
Oak Park Public Library
Dole Branch, 255 Augusta, Oak Park. (708) 386-9032. March 10, 3 p.m.: I Love Romance Book Group discusses Rainshadow Road. March 15, noon: Read & Reflect Book Group discusses A 1,000 Mile Walk on the Beach by Loreen Niewenhuis. March 19, noon: Brown Bag Book Discussion Group discusses Beautiful Mystery by Louise Penny. March 24, 2 p.m.: Inspiration: Living Life Mindfully Book Discussion Group discusses Learning to Breathe: My Year-Long Quest to Bring Calm to My Life by Priscilla Warner.
Oak Park Public Library
Maze Branch, 845 S. Gunderson Ave., Oak Park. (708) 386-4751.. March 5, noon: Places of Mystery Book Group discusses The No. 1 Ladies’ Detective Agency by Alexander McCall Smith.
CHILD’S PLAY
KidsFest
Featuring activities, refreshments and a raffle, 10 a.m.-2 p.m. March 3 at the Oak Park Conservatory, 615 Garfield St., Oak Park. Free. Visit.
“The Wizard of Oz”
Presented by Spotlight Youth Theater at 2 p.m. March 1 and 3 and 2 p.m. and 6 p.m. March 2 at The Arts Center of Oak Park, 200 N. Oak Park Ave., Oak Park. $9-$12 in advance; $11-$14 at the door. Call (847) 588-2298 or visit.
DANCE
Chicago Dance Chapter of USA Dance
Hosting “Lucky Leprechauns” on March 9 at The Centre at North Park, 10040 Addison, Franklin Park. Salsa/mambo lesson at 7:30 p.m.; open dancing 8:15-11 p.m. $10; $8 members; $6 students. Visit or call (773) 895-4602.
Starlettes Dance Team
Hosting “Starlette for a Day” dance clinic for girls ages 7-11, March 15-16 and 23-24 at Dominican University, 7900 W. Division St., River Forest. Fee is $30. Registration deadline March 11. Contact Katie Walsh, [email protected].
Willowbrook Ballroom
8900 S. Archer Ave., Willow Springs.. (708) 839-1000. March 1 and 15, 8 p.m.: Good Time Charley Singles Dance, $7-$9. March 3 and 17, 2-5 p.m.: Ballroom dancing to music by The Teddy Lee Orchestra, $14. March 5 and 12, 7:30-10 p.m.: Country and western lessons and dancing, $8. March 6 and 13, 7:30-11 p.m.: Salsa lessons and dancing, $10. March 8, 7:30 p.m.: Swing dancing with The Flat Cats Band. $12; $10 students. March 9, 8 p.m.: ‘50s and ‘60s Retro Dance Party with music by The Neverly Brothers. $10 in advance; $12 at the door. March 10: Waltz lesson, 12:30-1:30 p.m., $20. Ballroom dancing to music by The Steve Cooper Orchestra, 2-5 p.m., $14.
Young at Heart
Ballroom dancing for all ages at 8 p.m. Fridays at the American Legion, 9757 Pacific Ave., Franklin Park. $10; $8 members. Call (773) 961-7525 or visit.
FILM
Lake Theater
1022 Lake St., Oak Park.. March 2, 10:30 a.m.: Screening of the 2012 documentary, “Chasing Ice.” $6. March 5, noon and 7 p.m.: First Tuesday Film Club screens “Hyde Park on Hudson,” starring Bill Murray. Discussion will follow both screenings. $8.50; $6 for matinee/seniors.
Oak Park Public Library
834 Lake St. (708) 383-8200.. America’s Music film series — March 4, 1:30 p.m.: “What’s Love Got to Do With It?” starring Angela Bassett as Tina Turner. March 5, 7 p.m.: “High Lonesome: The Story of Bluegrass Music,” with archival footage and photographs from the 1930s and 1940s. March 11, 1:30 p.m.: “Coal Miner’s Daughter,” starring Sissy Spacek as country and western singer Loretta Lynn. March 12, 7 p.m.: “The History of Rock ‘n Roll: Episode 6, Plugging In.” March 19, 7 p.m.: “Latin Music USA, Episode One: Bridges” and “From Mambo to Hip Hop: A South Bronx Tale.”
Oak Park Public Library
Maze Branch, 845 S. Gunderson Ave., Oak Park. (708) 386-4751.. March 13, 1 p.m.: Silence is Golden Film Series featurs “Flesh and the Devil” (1927).
LECTURES
Oak Park Public Library
Main Library, 834 Lake St. (708) 383-8200.. America’s Music lecture series — March 4, 7 p.m.: Jim DeRogatis, host of “Sound Opinions” on WBEZ Public Radio in Chicago, and Val Camilletti of Val’s Halla in Oak Park, will discuss “Who Needs Gatekeepers? Music Criticism in the Digital Age.” March 27, 7 p.m.: The Numero Group presents “Eccentric Soul.”
Unity Temple Restoration Foundation
break :: the :: box lecture series explores creative nonconformity across architecture, art and culture, in Frank Lloyd Wright’s Unity Temple, 875 Lake St., Oak Park. For tickets, call (708) 383-8873 or visit. March 11, 7 p.m.: Wiel Arets :: A Wonderful World, featuring Dutch architect Wiel Arets. $12-$15. April 18, 7 p.m.: Roman Mars :: 99% Invisible: Telling Stories about the Built World. With his “tiny radio show about architecture and design,” Mars calls attention to the hidden elements and activities that shape our world. $12-$15.
Wright Around Chicago
A year-long series exploring Frank Lloyd Wright’s local influences, hosted by the Frank Lloyd Wright Preservation Trust and taking place at 6:30 p.m. in the Veterans Room of Oak Park Public Library, 834 Lake St., Oak Park. Free; registration required at. March 6: “From Country Hamlet to Urban Village: The Transformation of Oak Park in the Wright Years and Beyond,” presented by Frank Lipo, executive director of the Oak Park Historical Society. April 3: “J.L. Silsbee and the Making of an Artful Residence,” presented by architect Christopher Payne.
ORGANIZATIONS
Oak Park Photography Club
Meeting at 7 p.m. March 11 and 25 at the Oak Park Public Library, 834 Lake St., Oak Park. All skill levels welcome.
TOURS & OUTINGS
City Ventures Inc.
The Oak Park-based company offers the following tours. Pre-registration is required; call (708) 386-5668 or e-mail [email protected]. March 13, 9 a.m.-4 p.m.: “A Bit of Blarney,” including a tour of Old St. Patrick’s Church, lunch at Timothy O’Toole’s, and a visit to the Irish American Heritage Center. Motorcoach departs from an Oak Park area location. $85 per person.
ET CETERA
Antique American Glass Sale
Held 10 a.m.-5 p.m. March 9 and 11 a.m.-4 p.m. March 10 at the Concord Plaza Midwest Conference Center, 401 W. Lake St., Northlake. Offerings include Depression era glass, handmade glass, pottery and related items. $8 admission. Visit or call (630) 851-4504.
Halau i Ka Pono
The Hula School of Chicago, 38 Lake St., Oak Park.. (708) 297-6321. March 8-10: Hawaiian art and craft and cultural events presented by master hula teacher Michael Pili Pang. March 8, 2-4 p.m. and 6-8 p.m.: The Art of Lei-making, $25. March 8, 6-9 p.m.: Pu’ili (bamboo rattle) workshop, $40. March 9, noon-2:30 p.m.: Hula Kahiko (classical) dance workshop, $50. March 9, 3-5 p.m.: Hula Auana (modern) dance workshop, $40. March 9, 3-5 p.m.: Introduction to Hula, $40. March 9, 7-9 p.m.: Hula Salon, $25. March 10, 9-11 a.m.: The Spiritual Path of Hula; contributions requested.
The Nineteenth Century Club
178 Forest Ave., Oak Park. (708) 386-2729.. March 4, 1:15 p.m.: The Polonia Ensemble presents “Pulaski, Polish Hero during the Revolutionary War,” an interactive media program using film, dance and narration. Free.
Voice Box
Storytelling and DJ event held at 7:30 p.m. the first Tuesday of the month at Madison Street Theatre, 1010 Madison St., Oak Park. Each storyteller is invited to share a five-minute story inspired by the monthly tune. March 5: “Oh Danny Boy.” April 9: “When Fools Rush In.” May 7: “Mama Told Me Not To Come.” June 4: “My Father’s House.” July 2: “Coming To America.” Admission $8. Visit.
MUSEUMS
Hemingway Birthplace Home and Museum
200 N. Oak Park Ave., Oak Park.. Tea for Tuesdays, 1-5 p.m. Tuesdays, through March 26, featuring tours of the historic home where Hemingway was born, along with complimentary tea. Free admission.
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. [The Direct and Inverse Deductive Methods] After what has been said to illustrate the nature of the inquiry intoa social phenomena, the general character of the method proper to that inquiry is sufficiently evident, and needs only to be recapitulated, not proved. However complex the phenomena, all their sequences and coexistences result from the laws of the separate elements. The effectb towards the effect. The Social Science, therefore (whichc, by a convenient barbarism, has been termedc Sociology,) is a deductive science; not, indeed, after the model of geometry, but after that of the dmore complexd physical sciences. It infers the law of each effect from the laws of causation on which ethat effecte depends; not, however, from the law merely of one cause, as in the geometrical method; but by considering all the causes which conjunctly influence the effect, and compounding their laws with one another. Its method, in short, is the Concrete Deductive Method; that of which astronomy furnishes the most perfect, natural philosophy a somewhat less perfect example, and the employment of which, with the adaptations and precautions required by the subject, is beginning to regenerate physiology.
Nor does it admit of doubt, that similar adaptations and precautions are indispensable in sociology. In applying, to that most complex of all studies, what is demonstrably the sole method capable of throwing the light of science even upon phenomena of a far inferior degree of complication, we ought to be aware that the same superior complexity which renders the instrument of Deduction more necessary, renders it also more precarious; and we must be prepared to meet, by appropriate contrivances, this increase of difficulty.
The actions and feelings of human beings in the social state, are, no doubt, entirely governed by psychological and ethological laws: whatever influence any cause exercises upon the social phenomena, it exercises through those laws. Supposing therefore the laws of human actions and feelings to be sufficiently known, there is no extraordinary difficulty in determining from those laws, the nature of the social effects which any given cause tends to produce. But when the question is that of compounding several tendencies together, and computing the aggregate result of many coexistent causes; and especially when, by attempting to predict what will actually occur in a given case, we incur the obligation of estimating and compoundingf the influences of all the causes which happen to exist in that case; we attempt a task to proceed far in which,g surpasses the compass of the human faculties.
If all the resources of science are not sufficient to enable us to calculate à priori, with complete precision, the mutual action of three bodies gravitating towards one another; it may be judged with what hprospecth of success we should endeavouri to calculate the result of the conflicting tendencies which are acting in a thousand different directions and promoting a thousand different changes at a given instant in a given society: although we might and ought to be able, from the laws of human nature, to distinguish correctly enough the tendencies themselves, so far as they depend on causes accessible to our observation; and to determine the direction which each of them, if acting alone, would impress upon society, as well as, in a general way at least, to pronounce that some of these tendencies are more powerful than others.
But, without dissembling the necessary imperfections of the à priori method when applied to such a subject, neither ought we, on the other hand, to exaggerate them. The same objections, which apply to the Method of Deduction in this its most difficult employment, apply to it, as we formerly showed,* in its easiest; and would even there have been insuperable, if there had not existed, as was then fully explained, an appropriate remedy. This remedy consists in the process which, under the name of Verification, we have characterized as the third essential constituent part of the Deductive Method; that of collating the conclusions of the ratiocination either with the concrete phenomena themselves, or, when such are obtainable, with their empirical laws. The ground of confidence in any concrete deductive science is not the à priori reasoning jitself, but the accordancej between its results and those of observation à posteriori.kEitherk of these processes, lapartl from the other, diminishes in value as the subject increases in complication, and this in so rapid a ratio as soon to become entirely worthlessm; but them reliance to be placed in the concurrence of the two sorts of evidence, not only does not diminish in anything like the same proportion, but is not necessarily much diminished at all. nNothing more results thann a disturbance in the order of precedency of the two processes, sometimes amounting to its actual inversion: insomuch that instead of deducing our conclusions by reasoning, and verifying them by observation, we in some cases obegin by obtainingo them pprovisionallyp from specific experience, and qafterwards connect them with the principles of human nature by à priori reasonings, which reasonings are thus aq real Verification.
Ther only sthinkers who, with a competent knowledge of tscientific methods in generalt , has attempted to characterize the Method of Sociology, M. Comte, considers this inverse order as inseparably inherent in the nature of sociological speculation. He looks upon the social science as essentially consisting of generalizations from history, verified, not originally suggested, by deduction from the laws of human nature.[*]uThough there is a truth contained in this opinion, of whichu I shall presently endeavour to show the vimportancev , I cannot but think that this truth is enunciated in too unlimited a manner, and that there is considerable scope in sociological inquiry for the direct, as well as for the inverse, Deductive Method.
It will, in fact, be shown in the next chapter, that there is a kind of sociological inquiries to which, from their prodigious complication, the method of direct deduction is altogether inapplicable, while by a happy compensation it is precisely in these cases that we are able to obtain the best empirical laws: to these inquiries, therefore, the Inverse Method is exclusively adapted. But there are also, as will presently appear, other cases in which it is impossible to obtain from direct observation anything worthy the name of an empirical law; and it fortunately happens that these are the very cases in which the Direct Method is least affected by the objection which undoubtedly must always affect it in a certain degree.
We shall begin, then, by looking at wthe Social Sciencew as a science of direct Deduction, and considering what can be accomplished in it, and under what limitations, by that mode of investigation. We shall, then, in a separate chapter, examine and endeavour to characterize the inverse process.
§ 2. [Difficulties of the Direct Deductive Method in the Social Science] It is aevident, in the first place,a bapproximatelyb , all the agencies which may coexist with it, and still less calculate the collective result of so many combined elements. The remark, however, must here be once more repeated, that knowledge insufficient for prediction may be most valuable for guidance. It is not necessary for the wise conduct of the affairs of society, no more than of any cone’sc private concerns, that we should be able to foresee infallibly the results of what we do. We must seek our objects by means which may perhaps be defeated, and take precautions against dangers which possibly may never be realized. The aim of practical politics is to surround dany given societyd with the greatest possible number of circumstances of which the tendencies are beneficial, and to remove or counteract, as far as practicable, those of which the tendencies are injurious. A knowledge of the tendencies only, though without the power of accurately predicting their conjunct result, gives us to a econsiderablee extent this power.
It would, however, be an error to suppose that even with respect to tendencies, we could arrive in this manner at any great number of propositions which will be true in all societies without exception. fSuch a supposition would be inconsistent withf the eminently modifiable nature of the social phenomena, and the multitude and variety of the circumstances by which they are modified; circumstances never the same, or even nearly the same, in two different societies, or in two different periods of the same society. This would not be so serious an obstacle if, though the causes acting upon society in general are numerous, those which influence any one feature of society were limited in number; for we might then insulate any particular social phenomenon, and investigate its laws without disturbance from the rest. But the truth is the very opposite of this. Whatever affects, in an appreciable degree, any one element of the social state, affects through it all the other elements. The mode of production of all social phenomena is one great case of Intermixture of Laws. phenomenag. There is, in short, what physiologists term a consensus,g similar to that existing among the various organs and functions of the physical frame of man and the more perfect animals; and constituting one of the many analogies which have rendered universal such expressions as the “body politic” and “body natural.” It follows from this consensus, that unless two societies could be alike in all the circumstances which surround and influence them, (which would imply their being alike in their previous history,) no portion whatever of htheh phenomena will, unless by accident, precisely correspond; no one cause will produce exactly the same ieffectsi in both. jEvery cause, as its effect spreads through society, comes somewhere in contact with different sets of agencies, and thus hasj its effects on some of the social phenomena differently modified; and these differences, by their reaction, produce a difference even in those of the effects which would otherwise have been the same. We can never, therefore, affirm with certainty that a cause which has a particular tendency in one people or in one age will have exactly the same tendency in another, without referring back to our premises, and performing over again for the second age or nation, that analysis of the whole of its influencing circumstances which we had already performed for the first. The deductive science of society kwillk not lay down a theorem, asserting in an universal manner the effect of any cause; but lwill rather teachl us how to frame the proper theorem for the circumstances of any given case. It mwill not givem the laws of society in general, but the means of determining the phenomena of any given society from the particular elements or data of that society.
All the general propositions nwhich can be framed byn the deductive science, are therefore, in the strictest sense of the word, hypothetical. They are grounded on some supposititious set of circumstances, and declare how some given cause owould operate in those circumstances, supposing that no others wereo combined with them. If the set of circumstances supposed have been pcopiedp from those of any existing society, the conclusions will be true of that society, provided, and in as far as, the effect of those circumstances shall not be modified by others which have not been taken into the account. If we desire a nearer approach to concrete truth, we can only aim at it by taking, or endeavouring to take, a greater number of individualizing circumstances into the computation.
Considering, however, in how accelerating a ratio the uncertainty of our conclusions increases, as we attempt to take the effect of a greater number of concurrent causes into our calculations; the hypothetical combinations of circumstances on which we construct the general theorems of the science, cannot be made very complex, without so rapidly-accumulating a liability to error as must soon deprive our conclusions of all value. This mode of inquiry, considered as a means of obtaining general propositions, must, therefore, on pain ofq frivolity, be limited to those classes of social facts which, though influenced like the rest by all sociological agents, are under the immediate influence, principally at least, of a few only.
§ 3. [To what extent the different branches of sociological speculation can be studied apart. Political Economy characterized] Notwithstanding the universal consensus of the social phenomena, whereby nothing which takes place in any part of the operations of society is without its share of influence on every other part; and notwithstanding the paramount ascendancy which the general state of civilization and social progress in any given society must hence exercise over all the partial and subordinate phenomena; it is not the less true that different species of social facts are in the main dependent, immediately and in the first resort, on different kinds of causes; and therefore not only may with advantage, but must, be studied apart: just as in the natural body we study separately the physiology and pathology of each of the principal organs and tissues, though every one is acted upon by the astatea of all the others: and though the peculiar constitution and general state of health of the organism co-operates with, and often preponderates over, the local causes, in determining the state of any particular organ.
On these considerations is grounded the existence of distinct and separate, though not independent, branches or departments of sociological speculation.
There is, for example, one large class of social phenomena, in which the immediately determining causes are principally those which act through the desire of wealth; and in which the psychological law mainly concerned is the familiar one, that a greater gain is preferred to a smaller. I mean, of course, that portion of the phenomena of society which emanate from the industrial, or productive, operations of mankind; and from those of their acts through which the distribution of the products of those industrial operations takes place, in so far as not effected by force, or modified by voluntary gift. bBy reasoning from that one law of human nature, and from the principal outward circumstances (whether universal or confined to particular states of society) which operate upon the human mind through that law, we may be enabledb to explain and predict this portion of the phenomena of society, so far as they depend on that class of circumstances only; overlooking the influence of any other of the circumstances of society; and therefore neither tracing back the circumstances which cwe doc take into account, to their possible origin in some other facts in the social state, nor making allowance for the manner in which any of those other circumstances may interfere with, and counteract or modify, the effect of the former. dA department of science may thus be constructed, whichd has received the name of Political Economy.
The motive which suggests the separation of this portion of the social phenomena from the rest, and the creation of a distinct ebranch ofe science relating to them is,—that they do mainly depend, at least in the first resort, on one class of circumstances only; and that even when other circumstances interfere, the ascertainment of the effect due to the one class of circumstances alone, is a sufficiently intricate and difficult business to make it expedient to perform it once for all, and then fallow forf the effect of the modifying circumstances; especially as certain fixed combinations of the former are apt to recur often, in conjunction with ever-varying circumstances of the latter class.
Political Economy, as I have said on another occasion, concerns itself only with costly indulgences. These it takes, to a certain extent, into its calculations, because these do not merely, like. Under the influence of this desire, it shows mankind accumulating wealth, and employing thatmotives already specified. Not that any political economist was ever so absurd as to suppose that mankind are really thus constituted, but because this is the mode in which science must necessarily proceed. When an effect depends on a concurrence of causes, gprojectileg. hWith respect to those parts of human conduct of which wealth is not even the principal object,h. In this way a nearer approximation is obtained than would otherwise be practicable to the real order of human affairs in those departments. This approximation.*
iExtensive and important practical guidancei may be derived, in any given state of society, from general propositions such as those above indicated; even though the modifying influence of the miscellaneous causes which the theory does not take into account, as well as the effect of the general social changes in progress, jbe provisionally overlookedj . And though it has been a very common error of political economists to draw conclusions from the elements of one state of society, and apply them to other states in which many of the elements are not the same; it is even then not difficult, by tracing back the demonstrations, and introducing the new premises in their proper places, to make the same general course of argument which served for the one case, serve for the others too.
For example, it has been greatly the custom of English political economists to discuss thek laws of the distribution of the produce of industry, on a supposition which is scarcely realized anywhere out of England and Scotland, namely, that the produce is
shared among three classes, altogether distinct from one another, labourers, capitalists, and landlords; and that all these are free agents, permitted in law and in fact to set upon their labour, their capital, and their land, whatever price they are able to get for it. The conclusions of the science, being all adapted to a society thus constituted, require to be revised whenever they are applied to any other. They are inapplicable where the only capitalists are the landlords, and the labourers are their property, as in slave countries. They are inapplicable where the lalmostl universal landlord is the state, as in India. They are inapplicable where the agricultural labourer is generally the owner both of the land itself and of the capital, as mfrequentlym in France, or of the capital only, as in Ireland.
But though it may often be nveryn justly objected to the existing race of political economists “that they attempt to construct a permanent fabric out of transitory materials; that they take for granted the immutability of arrangements of society, many of which are in their nature fluctuating or progressive, and enunciate with as little qualification as if they were universal and absolute truths, propositions which are perhaps applicable to no state of society except the particular one in which the writer happened to live;” this does not take away the value of the propositions, considered with reference to the state of society from which they were drawn. And even as applicable to other states of society, “it must not be supposed that the science is so incomplete and unsatisfactory as this might seem to prove. Though many of its conclusions are only locally true, its method of investigation is applicable universallyo; and as whoevero has solved a certain number of algebraic equations, can without difficulty solve all others of the same kind, so pwhoeverp knows the political economy of England, or even of Yorkshire, knows that of all nations, actual or possible, provided he have good sense enough not to expect the same conclusion to issue from varying premises.” Whoever qhas mastered with the degree of precision which is attainableq the laws which, under free competition, determine the rent, profits, and wages, received by landlords, capitalists, and labourers, in a state of society in which the three classes are completely separate, will have no difficulty in determining the very different laws which regulate the distribution of the produce among the classes interested in it, in any of the states of cultivation and landed property set forth in the foregoing extract.*
§ 4. [Political Ethology, or the science of national character] peculiar class of causes, to make it convenient to create a preliminary science of those causes; postponing the consideration of the causes which act through them, or in concurrence with them, to a later period of the inquiry. There is however among these separate departments one which cannot be passed over in silence, being of a more comprehensive and commanding character than any of the other branches into which the social science may admit of being divided. Like them, it is directly conversant with the causes of only one class of social facts, but a class which exercises, immediately or remotely, a paramount influence over the rest. I allude to what may be termed Political Ethology, or the atheorya of the causes which determine the type of character belonging to a people or to an age. Of all the subordinate branches of the social science, this is the most completely in its infancy. The causes of national character are scarcely at all understood, and the effect of institutions or social arrangements upon bthe character of the peopleb is generally that portion of their effects which is least attended to, and least comprehended. Nor is this wonderful, when we consider the infant state of the Science of Ethology itself, from whence the laws must be drawn, of which the truths of political ethology ccan bec but results and exemplifications.
Yet to whoever well considers the matter, it must appear that the laws of national d(or collective)d character are by far the most important class of sociological laws. In the first place, the character which is formed by any state of social circumstances is in itself the most interesting phenomenon which that state of society can possibly present. Secondly, it is also a fact which enters largely into the production of all the other phenomena. And above all, the character, that is, the opinions, feelings, and habits, of the people, though greatly the results of the state of society which precedes them, are also greatly the causes of the state of society which follows them; and are the power by which all those of the circumstances of society which are artificial, laws and customs for instance, are altogether moulded: customs evidently, laws no less really, either by the direct influence of public sentiment upon the ruling powers, or by the effect which the state of national opinion and feeling has in determining the form of government, and shaping the character of the governors.
As might be expected, the most imperfect part of those branches of esocial inquirye which have been cultivated as separate sciences, is the theory of the manner in which their conclusions are affected by ethological considerations. The omission is no defect in them as abstract or hypothetical sciences, but it vitiates them in their practical application as branches of faf, like his countrymen in general, has seldom learned that it is possible that men, in conducting the business of selling their goods over a counter, should care more about their ease or their vanity than about their pecuniary gain. Yet those who know the habits of the Continent of Europe are aware how apparently small a motive often outweighs the desire of money-getting, even in the operations which have money-getting for their direct object. The more highly the science of ethology is cultivated, and the better the diversities of gindividual andg national character are understood, the smaller, probably, will the number of propositions become, which it will be considered safe to build on as universal principles of human nature.
These considerations show that the process of dividing off the social science into compartments, in order that each may be studied separately, and its conclusions afterwards corrected for practice by the modifications supplied by the others, must be subject to at least one important limitation. Those portions alone of the social phenomena can with advantage hbe madeh the subjects, even provisionally, of distinct branches of science, into which the diversities of character between different nations or different itimesi enter as influencing causes only in a secondary degree. Those phenomena, on the contrary, with which the influences of the ethological state of the people are mixed up at every step (so that the connexion of effects and causes cannot be even rudely marked out without taking those influences into consideration) could not with any advantage, nor without great disadvantage, be treated independently of political ethology, nor, therefore, of all the circumstances by which the qualities of a people are influenced. For this reason (as well as for others which will hereafter appear) there can be no separate Science of Government; that jbeingj the fact which, of all others, is most mixed up, both as cause and effect, with the qualities of the particular people or of the particular age. All questions respecting the tendencies of forms of government must stand part of the general science of society, not of any separate branch of it.
This general Science of Society, as distinguished from the separate departments of the science (each of which asserts its conclusions only conditionally, subject to the paramount control of the laws of the general science) know remains to be characterizedk . And as will be shown presently, nothing of a really scientific character is here possible, except by the inverse deductive method. But before we quit the subject of those sociological speculations which proceed by way of direct deduction, we must examine in what relation they stand to that indispensable element in all deductive sciences, Verification by Specific Experience—l comparison between the conclusions of reasoning and the results of observation.
§ 5. [The Empirical Laws of the Social Science] We have seen that, in most deductive sciences, and among the rest in Ethology itself, which is the immediate foundation of the Social Science, a preliminary work of preparation is performed on the observed facts, to fit them for being rapidly and accurately collated (sometimes even for being collated at all) with the conclusions of theory. This preparatory treatment consists in finding general propositions which express concisely what is common to large classes of observed facts: and these are called the empirical laws of the phenomena. We have, athereforea , to inquire, whether any similar preparatory process can be performed on the facts of the social science; whether there are any empirical laws in history or statistics.
In statistics, it is evident that empirical laws may sometimes be traced; andb the tracing them forms an important part of that system of indirect observation on which we must often rely for the data of the Deductive Science. The process of the science consists in inferring effects from their causes; but we have often no means of observing the causes, except through the medium of their effects. cIn such cases the deductive science isc unable to predict the effects, for want of the necessary data; it can ddetermined what causes are capable of producing any given effect, but not with what frequency and in what quantities those causes exist. An instance in point is afforded by a newspaper now lying before me. A statement was furnished by one of the official assignees in bankruptcy, showing, among the various bankruptcies which it had been his duty to investigate, in how many cases the losses had been caused by misconduct of different kinds, and in how many by unavoidable misfortunes. The result was, that the number of failures caused by misconduct greatly preponderated over those arising from all other causes whatever. Nothing but specific experience could have given sufficient ground for a conclusion to this purport. To collect, therefore, such empirical laws (which are never more than approximate generalizations) from direct observation, is an important part of the process of sociological inquiry.
The experimental process is not here to be regarded as a distinct road to the truth, but as a means (happening accidentally to be the only, or the best, available) for obtaining the enecessary data for the deductive sciencee . When the immediate causes of social facts are not open to direct observation, the empirical law of the effects gives us the empirical law (which in that case is all that we can obtain) of the causes likewise. But those immediate causes depend on remote causes; and the empirical law, obtained by this indirect mode of observation, can only be relied on as applicable to unobserved cases, so long as there is reason to think that no change has taken place in any of the remote causes on which the immediate causes depend. In making use, therefore, of even the best statistical generalizations for the purpose of inferring (though it be only conjecturally) that the same empirical laws will hold in any new case, it is necessary that we bef well acquainted with the remoter causes, in order that we mayg avoid applying the empirical law to cases which differ in any of the circumstances on which the truth of the law ultimately depends. And thus, even where conclusions derived from specific observation are available for practical inferences in new cases, it is necessary that the deductive science should stand sentinel over the whole process; that it should be constantly referred to, and its sanction obtained to every inference.
The same thing holds true of all generalizations which can be grounded on history. Not only there are such generalizations, but it will presently be shown that the general science of society, which inquires into the laws of succession and coexistence of the great facts constituting the state of society and civilization at any time, can proceed in no other manner than by making such generalizations—afterwards to be confirmed by connecting them with the psychological and ethological laws on which they must really depend.
§ 6. [The Verification of the Social Science] But (reserving this question for its proper place) in those more speciala inquiries which form the subject of the separate branches of the social science, this twofold logical process and reciprocal verification is not possible: specific experience affords nothing amounting to empirical laws. This is particularly the case where the object is to determine the effect of any one bsocialb cause among a great number acting simultaneously; the effect, for example, of corn laws, or of a prohibitive commercial system generally. Though it may be perfectly certain, from theory, what kind of effects corn laws must produce, and in what general direction their influence must tellc upon industrial prosperity; their effect is yet of necessity so much disguised by the similar or contrary effects of dother influencing agentsd , that specific experience can at most only show that eone the average of some great number of instances, the cases where there were corn laws exhibited the effect in a greater degree than those where there were not. Now the number of instances necessary to fexhaustf the whole round of combinations of the various influential circumstances, and thus afford a fair average, never can be obtainedg. Not only we can never learn with sufficient authenticity the facts of so many instances, butg the world itself does not afford them in sufficient numbers, within the limits of the given state of society and civilization which such inquiries always presuppose. Having thus no previous empirical generalizations with which to collate the conclusions of theory, the only mode of direct verification which remains is to compare those conclusions with the result of an individual experiment or instance. But here the difficulty is equally great. For in order to verify a theory by an experiment, the circumstances of the experiment must be exactly the same with those contemplated in the theory. But in social phenomena the circumstances of no two hcasesh are exactly alike. A trial of corn laws in another country or in a former generation, would go a very little way towards verifying iai conclusion drawn respecting their effect in this generation and in this country. It thus happens, in most cases, that the only jindividual instance really fitted to verify the predictions of theory is the veryj instance for which the predictions were made; and the verification comes too late to be of any avail for practical guidance.
Although, however, direct verification is impossible, there is an indirect verification, which is scarcely of less value, and which is always practicable. kThe conclusion drawn as to the individual case, can only be directly verified in that casek ; but it is verified indirectly, by the verification of other conclusions, drawn in other individual cases from the same laws. The experience which comes too late to verify the particular proposition to which it refers, is not too late to help towards verifying the general sufficiency of the theory. The test of the degree in which the science affords safe ground for predicting (and consequently for practically dealing with) what has not yet happened, is the degree in which it would have enabled us to predict what has actually occurred. Before our theory of the influence of a particular cause, in a given state of circumstances, can be lentirelyl trusted, we must be able to explain and account for the existing state of all that portion of the social phenomena which that cause has a tendency to influence. If, for instance, we would apply our speculations in political economy to the prediction or guidance of the phenomena of any country, we must be able to explain all the mercantile or industrial facts of a general character, appertaining to the present state of that country: to point out causes sufficient to account for all of them, and prove, or show good ground for supposing, that mthesem cause nhave really existedn . If we cannot do this, it is a proof either that the facts which ought to be taken into accounto are not yet completely known to us, or that although we know the facts, we are not masters of a sufficiently perfect theory to enable us to assign their consequences. In either case we are not, in the present state of our knowledge, pfully competent to draw conclusions,p speculative or practical, for that country. In like manner, if we would attempt to judge of the effect which any political institution would have, supposing that it could be introduced into any given country; we must be able to show that the existing state of the practical government of that country, and of whatever else depends thereon, together with the particular character and tendencies of the people, and their state in respect to the various elements of social well-being, are such as the institutions they have lived under, in conjunction with the other circumstances of their nature or of their position, were calculated to produce.
qTo prove (in short)q that our science, and our knowledge of the particular case, render us competent to predict the future, we must show that they would have enabled us to predict the present and the past. If there be anything which we could not have predicted, this constitutes a residual phenomenon, requiring further study for the purpose of explanation; and we must either search among the circumstances of the particular case until we find one which, on the principles of our existing theory, accounts for the unexplained phenomenon, or we must turn back, and seek the explanation by an extension and improvement of the theory itself.
[a]MS, 43, 46 the
[b]43, 46 which is
[c-c]MS, 43 I shall henceforth, with M. Comte, designate by the more compact term
[d-d]MS, 43, 46 higher
[e-e]MS it
[f]MS, 43, 46 together
[g]MS, 43, 46 certainly
[h-h]MS, 43, 46 prospects
[i]MS, 43, 46 , from the laws of human nature only,
[* ]Supra, pp. 447ff.
[j-j]MS, 43, 46 , but the consilience
[k-k]MS Though either
[l-l]MS, 43, 46 when divorced
[m-m]MS , the
[n-n]MS What results is only
[o-o]MS obtain
[p-p]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65, 68 conjecturally
[q-q]MS the à priori reasoning by which we afterwards connect them with the principles of human nature is their
[r]MS, 43 greatest living authority on scientific methods in general, and the
[s-s]MS, 43, 46 philosopher
[t-t]MS, 43 those methods
[[*] ]See Cours, Vol. IV, 48e Leçon, esp. pp. 450ff.
[u-u]MS, 43 Such an opinion, from such a thinker, deserves the most serious consideration; but though
[v-v]MS, 43 eminent importance of the truth which it contains] 46 eminent importance
[w-w]MS, 43 Sociology
[a-a]MS, 43 , in the first place, distinctly apparent
[b-b]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 approximatively
[c-c]MS, 43 man’s
[d-d]MS, 43, 46 the society which is under our superintendence
[e-e]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65, 68 certain
[f-f]MS This arises from
[g-g]MS : a consensus (as it would be called in the language of physiology)] 43, 46 . There is, in short, a consensus (to borrow an expression from physiology)
[h-h]MS, 43, 46, 51 their
[i-i]MS, 43, 46 effect
[j-j]MS For every cause, as its effect spreads through society, is sure to come in contact somewhere with different sets of agencies, and thus to have
[k-k]MS, 43, 46 does
[l-l]MS, 43, 46 rather teaches
[m-m]MS, 43, 46 does not give us
[n-n]MS, 43, 46 of
[o-o]MS, 43, 46 will operate . . . others are
[p-p]MS, 43, 46 taken
[q]MS, 43, 46 entire
[a-a]MS condition
[b-b]MS A science is capable of being constructed, which by reasoning . . . law, may enable us
[c-c]MS it does
[d-d]MS This science] 43, 46 A science is thus constructed, which] 51, 56, 62, 65, 68 A science may thus be constructed, which
[e-e]+72
[f-f]MS add
[g-g]Source, MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 tangential
[h-h]MS, 43 There are many parts . . . object, and [cf. reading in Collected Works, Vol. IV, pp. 322x-x and 323y]
[* ][46] Essays on some Unsettled Questions of Political Economy, pp. 137-140 [Collected Works, Vol. IV, pp. 321-3].
[i-i]MS, 43 When M. Comte (for of the objections raised by inferior thinkers it is unnecessary here to take account) pronounces the attempt to treat political economy, even provisionally, as a science apart, to be a misapprehension of the scientific method proper to Sociology [Cours, Vol. IV, pp. 264ff.]; I cannot but think that he has overlooked the extensive and important practical guidance which
[j-j]MS will of course require to be attended to in its application
[k]MS, 43, 46 natural
[l-l]+51, 56, 62, 65, 68, 72 [not in Source]
[m-m]+68, 72 [not in Source]
[n-n]+43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65, 68, 72
[o-o]MS . As he who] Source, 43, 46 ; and as he who
[p-p]Source, MS, 43, 46 he who
[q-q]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65, 68 is thoroughly master of
[* ]The quotations in this paragraph are from a paper written by the author, and published in a periodical in 1834. [“On Miss Martineau’s Summary of Political Economy,” Monthly Repository, VIII (May, 1834), p. 319; in Collected Works, IV, pp. 225-6.]
[a-a]MS, 43, 46 science
[b-b]MS, 43, 46 national character
[c-c]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 are
[d-d]+51, 56, 62, 65, 68, 72
[e-e]MS, 43 sociology
[f-f]MS, 43, 46 the
[g-g]+51, 56, 62, 65, 68, 72
[h-h]MS form
[i-i]MS ages,
[j-j]MS is, of
[k-k]MS, 43, 46 it now remains for us to characterize
[l]MS, 43, 46 the
[a-a]MS then
[b]MS that
[c-c]MS The deductive science is then
[d-d]MS, 43, 46 tell us
[e-e]MS, 43, 46 data which the deductive science cannot do without
[f]MS, 43, 46 perfectly
[g]MS, 43, 46 scrupulously
[a]MS, 43 sociological
[b-b]MS, 43 sociological
[c]MS , among so many other influencing agents,
[d-d]MS those other causes
[e-e]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 in
[f-f]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 take in
[g-g]MS ; not only because we . . . but because
[h-h]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56 experiments
[i-i]MS the
[j-j]MS instance . . . very individual
[k-k]MS The deductive science, as has been seen, does not so much furnish us with general truths, as enable us to discover the truth in each individual case, from general premisses. Now the conclusion . . . that case, & therefore too late for the verification to be of any use
[l-l]+56, 62, 65, 68, 72
[m-m]MS those [printer’s error?]
[n-n]MS, 43, 46, 51, 56, 62, 65 did really exist
[o]MS in drawing our conclusions,
[p-p]MS, 43, 46 competent to draw conclusions, either
[q-q]MS, 43 It is therefore well said by M. Comte [Cours, Vol. IV, pp. 460ff.], that in order to prove |
745 F.2d 493
117 L.R.R.M. (BNA) 2638, 101 Lab.Cas. P 11,213
NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD, Petitioner,
v.
CHICAGO MARINE CONTAINERS, INC., Respondent.
No. 83-1909.
United States Court of Appeals,
Seventh Circuit.
Argued May 8, 1984.
Decided Oct. 4, 1984.
L. Pat Wynns, N.L.R.B., Elliott Moore, N.L.R.B., Washington, D.C., for petitioner.
Dana S. Connell, Matkov, Griffin, Parsons, Salzman & Madoff, Chicago, Ill., for respondent.
Before WOOD and ESCHBACH, Circuit Judges, and KELLAM, Senior District Judge.*
HARLINGTON WOOD, Jr., Circuit Judge.
The National Labor Relations Board (the "Board") seeks enforcement of its order finding Chicago Marine Containers, Inc. ("the company") in violation of subsections (a)(1) and (a)(5) of section 8 of the Labor Management Relations Act, 29 U.S.C. Sec. 158(a)(1), (5) (1982), because of the company's refusal to bargain with the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America ("the union"), the union certified as the exclusive bargaining representative of the company's employees. The company admittedly has refused to bargain with the union, which won election with over ninety percent of the votes, to test the propriety of the Board's certification of the union. We conclude that the company's challenges to the representation election are wholly without merit. The Board's order will be enforced.
I.
On July 1, 1981, a majority of the company's employees voted to be represented by the Electrical Workers in place of the Sheet Metal Workers, their former representative.1 Five days later, the company filed timely objections to the election, seeking to set aside the result because the union allegedly had (1) engaged in pre-election "misrepresentations of fact and other false and misleading statements concerning crucial issues"; (2) threatened and coerced employees into supporting the union; (3) engaged in conduct that "impugned the integrity" of the Board's processes; all of which (4) interfered with the holding of a free and fair election.
These objections were investigated by the Board's regional director without a hearing. On August 19, 1981, the regional director issued a Supplemental Decision on Objections that overruled the company's objections and certified the union as the employees' bargaining representative. The company sought review of the regional director's decision with the Board, contending that the regional director erred in overruling the company's objections, in failing to assess the union's cumulative conduct, and in denying the company a hearing on the objections. On September 24, 1981, the Board summarily denied the company's request for review and a hearing on the ground that no substantial issues were raised warranting further proceedings.
The company thereafter refused to bargain with the union. The union filed unfair labor practices charges, and a complaint issued. In its answer, the company defended itself by claiming that the union was not validly certified as the bargaining representative because of improprieties in the election. The Board entered summary judgment against the company. The Board disposed of the issues raised by the company in the unfair labor practices proceeding by holding that the issues had been or could have been litigated in the representation proceeding, that the company had failed to offer at a hearing any newly discovered or previously unavailable evidence, and had not alleged the existence of any special circumstances requiring the Board to reexamine its decision in the representation proceeding. Accordingly, the Board concluded that the company's refusal to bargain violated subsections (a)(1) and (a)(5) of section 8 of the Labor Management Relations Act and directed the company to cease and desist from refusing to bargain with the union. This appeal followed.
II.
On appeal, the company challenges the Board's refusal to grant it an evidentiary hearing and renews its four objections to the validity of the representation election because of alleged unlawful pre-election conduct by the union.
A.
A party challenging a representation election is entitled to an evidentiary hearing only when it raises substantial and material factual issues and proffers evidence that establishes a prima facie case for setting aside the election. NLRB v. Howard Johnson Motor Lodge, 705 F.2d 932, 934 (7th Cir.1983); Advertisers Manufacturing Co. v. NLRB, 677 F.2d 544, 546 (7th Cir.1982); cf. Board Rules and Regulations, 29 C.F.R. Sec. 102.69(d) (1984).
The Board is entitled to rely on the Regional Director's report in the absence of specific exceptions supported by offers of proof of facts contrary to the Regional Director's findings. NLRB v. Belcor, Inc., 652 F.2d 856, 859 (9th Cir.1981). If, however, there are substantial and material factual disputes between the election report and the exceptions, a hearing is required. Id.
NLRB v. Advanced Systems, Inc., 681 F.2d 570, 572 (9th Cir.1982).
We believe, as we make clear in our discussion of the company's specific objections, that the company has failed to provide evidence establishing a prima facie case of election impropriety. In addition, the company, through all of its challenges, has not taken issue with any factual findings by the regional director; it has merely disagreed with the regional director's conclusions. See Magic Pan, Inc. v. NLRB, 627 F.2d 105, 109 (7th Cir.1980); Louis-Allis Co. v. NLRB, 463 F.2d 512, 520 (7th Cir.1972). As we find below, the facts as alleged do not warrant setting aside the election, and therefore the Board's refusal to grant an evidentiary hearing is supported by substantial evidence.2
B.
The company renews its first and third objections regarding alleged misrepresentations made by the union in its pre-election campaign literature. The company's first objection is that the union made material misrepresentations about the Sheet Metal Workers, the company, and their relationship. The company points to language in the union literature stating that the company was "pushing [the employees] around," that the Sheet Metal Workers "did nothing to help," and that the existing bargaining agreement was "a cozy little marriage license." The company's third objection is that the union impugned the integrity of Board proceedings by misrepresenting their purpose and effect through statements in the campaign literature characterizing the Sheet Metal Worker's pre-election unfair labor practices charges against the company, which had the effect of temporarily "blocking" the election, as "phony" and motivated by a desire to "stall the election."
The parties disagree as to what standard we should apply in determining whether the union's pre-election statements justify setting aside the election. The Board has vacillated between two standards. The first of these standards, enunciated originally in Hollywood Ceramics Co., Inc., 140 N.L.R.B. 221 (1962), requires that a representation election.
Peerless of America, Inc. v. NLRB, 576 F.2d 119, 123 (7th Cir.1978); see Hollywood Ceramics, 140 N.L.R.B. at 224. The second standard, most recently described in Midland National Life Insurance Co., 263 N.L.R.B. 127 (1982), rejects the position of setting aside an election based on the substance of the misrepresentation. Instead, under Midland, the Board will intervene only when the misrepresentation involves the use of "an official Board document [which] has been altered in such a way as to indicate an endorsement by the Board of a party to the election," or "forged documents which render voters unable to recognize propaganda for what it is." Midland, 263 N.L.R.B. at 133 & n. 25. See also St. Elizabeth Hospital v. N.L.R.B., 715 F.2d 1193, 1198 (7th Cir.1983).
At the time the regional director made his recommendations and at the time they were affirmed by the Board, the Hollywood Ceramics standard was in effect.3 Applying that standard, the regional director found no material misrepresentations. On appeal, counsel for the Board urges us to apply the Midland standard. The company does not dispute that the Board's new policy is a permissible exercise of the Board's discretion, but contends that the new policy should not be applied retroactively to this case.
We note initially that, even applying pre-Midland policies, the Board's decision is supported by substantial evidence. The company's objections, based as they are on certain statements appearing in the union's campaign literature that are obvious expressions of opinion, are entirely without merit. The statements that the company was pushing the employees around, that the incumbent Sheet Metal Workers union had done nothing, and that the Sheet Metal Workers union's relationship with the company was a "cozy little marriage license" are, as found by the regional director, "legitimate campaign propaganda" and not misrepresentations at all. They are precisely the kind of insubstantial "derogatory statements about the other party" that the Board in Hollywood Ceramics specifically noted could not be expected to have any impact on an election. 140 N.L.R.B. at 224. Such language should be left " 'to the good sense of the voters ....' " Baker Canning Co. v. NLRB, 505 F.2d 574, 576 (7th Cir.1974) (citation omitted).
In addition, as noted by the regional director, although the union's campaign literature appeared at least two weeks prior to the election, the company made no effort in its ensuing campaign literature to respond to the statements. Finally, the statements involve matters within the knowledge of the employees; the employees were intimately familiar with the bargaining relationship between the Sheet Metal Workers and the company and were entirely capable of evaluating the statements for what they were--mere opinions. See Melrose-Wakefield Hospital Association v. NLRB, 615 F.2d 563, 568 (1st Cir.1980).
Similarly, the union's statements that the Sheet Metal Workers' pre-election unfair labor practices charges were "phony" and designed to "stall" the election were obviously only the opinion of the leaflet writers. As noted by the regional director, these statements "did not suggest either directly or indirectly that the Board endorsed a particular choice in the election [or] otherwise impugn the Board's processes." Furthermore, the regional director observed that the only statement relating directly to the Board's procedures--the statement that advised employees that an election could not be held during the pendency of the Sheet Metal Workers' unfair labor practices charges--was factually accurate and "correctly stated the general rule with respect to blocking charges." See NLRB Casehandling Manual Part II, Sec. 11730. Finally, even if the statements in the company's view mischaracterized the company's motives, the company and the Sheet Metal Workers had a week in which to respond to them.
Although the company's first and third objections obviously fail under pre-Midland rules, we take this opportunity to clarify the circumstances under which Midland should be applied retroactively and hold that Midland applies here.4 We note initially that appellate courts ordinarily apply the law in effect at the time the appellate decision is made. See Bradley v. Richmond School Board, 416 U.S. 696, 711, 94 S.Ct. 2006, 2016, 40 L.Ed.2d 476 (1974). In deciding whether to follow an intervening change of policy by an administrative agency, however, it is appropriate to allow the agency to decide in the first instance whether giving the change retroactive effect will best effectuate the policies underlying the agency's governing act. See NLRB v. Food Store Employees Union, Local 347, 417 U.S. 1, 10 n. 10, 94 S.Ct. 2074, 2080 n. 10, 40 L.Ed.2d 612 (1974). In Midland, the Board specifically stated that its new policy would apply to "all pending cases in whatever stage." 263 N.L.R.B. at 133 n. 24 (emphasis added) (quoting Deluxe Metal Furniture Co., 121 N.L.R.B. 995, 1007 (1958)). We think that this broad language reveals an intent to apply Midland retroactively to cases, like this one, which were not before us at the time Midland was decided.5
Although we are not bound by the Board's views on retroactive application, we have previously indicated that we would apply Midland retroactively in cases decided by the Board under the Hollywood Ceramics rule and appealed to us after Midland, see NLRB v. Milwaukee Brush Manufacturing Co., 705 F.2d 257, 258 (7th Cir.1983) (per curiam),6 unless we were unsure whether the Board would have wanted the Midland rule to be applied retroactively because of unusual circumstances that cast doubt on whether the election results indicate the free choice of the majority, see St. Elizabeth Hospital v. NLRB, 715 F.2d 1193, 1198 (7th Cir.1983); Mosey Manufacturing Co. v. NLRB, 701 F.2d 610, 612 (7th Cir.1983) (en banc). In Mosey, the election took place five years prior to the court's opinion and was decided by only one vote. During the pendency of that case, the Board had changed the rule on misrepresentations twice and, as a result, protracted and expensive litigation occurred. Id. at 612. We observed that these facts made the case "so unusual ... that we cannot be sure it was in the Board's contemplation when the Board announced ... that the new rule would apply to all pending cases." Id. We noted that remand to the Board would therefore be appropriate to allow the Board to decide which standard to apply, but declined to do so because the lengthy, Board-caused delay convinced us that its order should not be enforced at all. In St. Elizabeth, we remanded to the Board for a determination of which standard to apply because the election was decided by four votes, three of which were challenged, and there were very strong indications that the alleged misrepresentations might have satisfied Hollywood Ceramics.
This case does not demonstrate the unusual circumstances present in Mosey and St. Elizabeth. Here the election was won by a margin of one hundred and sixteen of the one hundred and fifty-three valid votes cast. The Board has changed the rule on misrepresentations only once since the election. While the election was held three years ago, the delay was occasioned only by the ordinary process of administrative and judicial review.7 In addition, as we noted earlier, the outcome of the case would be the same whichever standard is applied.
Finally, this is not a case in which manifest injustice would result to the company from retroactive application of the Midland standard. See Bradley, 416 U.S. at 711, 94 S.Ct. at 2016. In analyzing whether any manifest injustice would result from retroactive application of a rule, we consider the reliance of the parties on pre-existing law, the effect of retroactivity on accomplishing the purpose of the law, and any injustice arising from retroactive application. See Chevron Oil Co. v. Huson, 404 U.S. 97, 107, 92 S.Ct. 349, 355, 30 L.Ed.2d 296 (1971). In this case, there was no clear precedent on which the company could rely. In the four years prior to this election, the misrepresentation rule changed three times amid acrimonious debate. See, e.g., Shopping Kart Food Market, Inc., 228 N.L.R.B. 1311, 1315 (1977) (members Fanning and Jenkins dissenting in part); General Knit of California, Inc., 239 N.L.R.B. 619, 624 (1978) (member Penello dissenting); Midland, 263 N.L.R.B. at 133 (members Fanning and Jenkins dissenting). The company makes no argument that retroactive application of Midland will in any way retard its operation or purpose. Finally, the only hardship or injustice the company can complain of is that during the campaign it was more honest than it was legally required to be. This is not the sort of hardship contemplated in Chevron and Bradley. See NLRB v. Semco Printing Center, 721 F.2d 886, 892 (2d Cir.1983); NLRB v. Monark Boat Co., 713 F.2d 355, 361 (8th Cir.1983).
Because the Board intended Midland to govern here, and because there is no reason to apply it prospectively only, this court will consider the company's misrepresentation objections under the Midland standard. Applying the Midland standard to the present case, it is clear that neither the company's first nor its third objection requires that the July 1, 1981 election be set aside. None of the allegedly objectionable statements involved the use of forged documents or altered Board documents.
C.
In its second objection, the company alleged that the union and its agents coerced employees into supporting or refraining from opposing the union and created an atmosphere of fear among the employees. A party seeking to overturn an election because of coercive conduct carries a heavy burden. The test is "whether the coercive conduct so influenced potential voters that free choice was impossible." NLRB v. Advanced Systems, Inc., 681 F.2d 570, 575 (9th Cir.1982).
The only "evidence" the company submitted was the allegation in its supporting position letter that "to the best of the [company's] knowledge, several employees were threatened with the loss of their jobs or benefits if they supported the Sheet Metal Workers." The company never stated the factual basis for this conclusory allegation. Although the regional director provided the company with an opportunity to submit supporting facts, the company failed to do so; the company was unable to provide, for example, the name of anyone who made, witnessed, or was the target of any alleged threat. At oral argument before this court, counsel for the company admitted that the record did not reflect anything about the basis of the company's knowledge of these alleged threats. He went on to argue, however, that "allegations" of coercion were sufficient to entitle the company to an evidentiary hearing.
As we noted earlier, in order to be entitled to an evidentiary hearing, the objecting party must offer facts sufficient to sustain a prima facie case. In Howard Johnson, we referred to the requirement of a substantial "factual allegation," 705 F.2d at 934, and in no way intimated that conclusory allegations unsupported by references to any underlying facts would be sufficient to establish a prima facie case. Other courts have emphasized that the objecting party must supply " 'specific evidence from or about specific people' in support of allegations having a basis in law which, if credited, would be sufficient to overturn the election." NLRB v. Golden Age Beverage Co., 415 F.2d 26, 33 (5th Cir.1969) (citing NLRB v. Douglas County Electric Membership Corp., 358 F.2d 125, 130 (5th Cir.1966); see also NLRB v. Allis-Chalmers, 680 F.2d 1166, 1170 (7th Cir.1982) (Eschbach, J., concurring).
No evidence establishing a factual basis for the coercion charge was supplied in this case. In our view, to make an objection about coercive conduct without any underlying factual support is an abuse of the administrative and judicial processes and evidences a mind bent on achieving protracted delay through litigation mischief. The company has succeeded in avoiding negotiating for over three years with a union overwhelmingly favored by the majority of the company's employees. Conduct of this sort by employers threatens to make a mockery of employees' freedom of choice.
We need not address the company's fourth objection, since that cumulative charge rested on the strength of its other objections, all of which we have found to be without merit. For the reasons stated above, the Board's order is
ENFORCED.
The Honorable Richard B. Kellam, Senior District Judge of the Eastern District of Virginia, is sitting by designation
The election results were as follows:
Approximate number of eligible voters ........ 196 Void ballots ................................... 1 Votes cast for the union ..................... 137 Votes cast for the Sheet Metal Workers ........ 12 Votes cast against participating in labor organizations ................................ 4 Challenged ballots ............................. 2 Valid votes counted plus challanged ballots .. 155
We held in Mosey Manufacturing Co. v. NLRB, 701 F.2d 610 (7th Cir.1983) (en banc), that our review of the Board's application of a rule to the facts of a particular case is governed by the "substantial evidence" test. Id. at 615. Because the assessment of whether a prima facie case exists so as to warrant an evidentiary hearing involves the application of the Board's substantive rules to facts, see NLRB v. Howard Johnson Motor Lodge, 705 F.2d 932, 934 (7th Cir.1983), any decision based on such an assessment must be supported by substantial evidence
Hollywood Ceramics was overruled in Shopping Kart Food Market, Inc., 228 N.L.R.B. 1311 (1977), in which the Board stated that it would "no longer probe into the truth or falsity of the parties' campaign statements" but would intervene "in instances where a party has engaged in such deceptive campaign practices as improperly involving the Board and its processes, or the use of forged documents which render the voters unable to recognize the propaganda for what it is." Id. at 1311, 1313. The Board overturned Shopping Kart and reinstated the Hollywood Ceramics standard, however, less than two years later in General Knit of California, Inc., 239 N.L.R.B. 619 (1978), and then reversed itself again in Midland. The entire chronology is as follows:
December 20, 1962: Hollywood Ceramics
April 8, 1977: Shopping Kart (overruling Hollywood
Ceramics)
December 6, 1978: General Knit (overruling Shopping
Kart and readopting Hollywood
Ceramics)
August 4, 1982: Midland (overruling Hollywood
Ceramics/General Knit and
readopting Shopping Kart)
Although we apply Midland retroactively here, we note that there may be situations in which it might be inappropriate to be strictly bound by the Midland standard. See Van Dorn Plastic Machinery Co. v. NLRB, 736 F.2d 343, 348 (6th Cir.1984); NLRB v. New Columbus Nursing Home, Inc., 720 F.2d 726, 729 (1st Cir.1983)
In Certainteed Corp. v. NLRB, 714 F.2d 1042 (11th Cir.1983), the Eleventh Circuit undertook an exhaustive analysis of the retroactivity question as it related to cases pending before the courts of appeals at the time Midland was decided; unable to determine what the Board's intent was with respect to those cases, the court remanded for decision of that question. The Board has since indicated that it will not apply Midland to cases which the circuit courts decided and remanded to the Board before Midland. See Wells Fargo Guard Services, 269 N.L.R.B. No. 47 at 3 (1984); Bauer Welding and Metal Fabricators, Inc., 268 N.L.R.B. No. 216 at 3-4 (1984) (Judge Giannali's Supplemental Decision on Remand, adopted by the Board). Because this case was not filed in this court until May 20, 1983, and thus was not pending before us when Midland was decided, we think the Board intended Midland to apply here
Other courts have approved the retroactive application of the Board's Midland rule in cases brought before them under similar circumstances. See NLRB v. Semco Printing Center, Inc., 721 F.2d 886, 892 (2d Cir.1983); NLRB v. Monark Boat Co., 713 F.2d 355, 361 (8th Cir.1983); NLRB v. Rolligon Corp., 702 F.2d 589, 594 (5th Cir.1983)
This is not a case in which multiple remands and rebriefing have imposed unreasonable burdens on the employer. If the delay and cost incident to ordinary review of a representation election were enough to trigger the "unusual circumstances" exception of Mosey, any employer fortunate enough to have had a representation election at the proper time could compel the use of the Hollywood Ceramics standard by objecting to an alleged misrepresentation and going through the review process. Mosey clearly was not intended to produce any such result |
919 F.2d 1493
64 Ed. Law Rep. 647, 18 Media L. Rep. 2081
AMERICAN BOOKSELLERS, et al., Plaintiffs-Appellees,
v.
James WEBB, et al., Defendants-Appellants.
No. 87-8199.
United States Court of Appeals,
Eleventh Circuit.
Dec. 27, 1990.
George M. Weaver, England, Weaver & Kytle, Atlanta, Ga., for defendants-appellants.
William N. Withrow, Jr., J. Kirk Quillian, Troutman, Sanders, Lockerman & Ashmore, Atlanta, Ga., Michael A. Bamberger, Sonnenschein, Carlin, Nath & Rosenthal, New York City, for plaintiffs-appellees.
Appeal from the United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia.
Before KRAVITCH, Circuit Judge, HILL, Senior Circuit Judge*, and POINTER, Chief District Judge**.
HILL, Senior Circuit Judge:
INTRODUCTION
I. STATEMENT OF THE CASE
As stated in the district court order from which this appeal is taken, "[t]his case presents a conflict between one of society's most cherished rights--freedom of expression--and one of government's most profound obligations--the protection of minors." American Booksellers Ass'n v. Webb, 643 F.Supp. 1546, 1547 (N.D.Ga.1986) (hereinafter "Webb II" ). Plaintiff-appellees obtained declaratory and injunctive relief barring the enforcement of a Georgia law which regulates, inter alia, the display of material deemed "harmful to minors." The District Court for the Northern District of Georgia interpreted the statute to "reduce an adult's selection of reading materials to a book list suitable for a fifth-grade class" and declared the statute unconstitutional on its face. Id. at 1548. We find that the statute is readily susceptible to a narrowing construction that reduces the scope of materials covered, produces only a slight burden on adults' access to protected material,1 and fully comports with the First Amendment. We also reverse the district court's determination that an exemption granted in the statute to libraries is subject to strict scrutiny and violates the Equal Protection Clause.
A. Background
On April 5, 1984, the Governor of Georgia signed into law Act No. 1319, 1984 Ga.Laws 1495, 1496-1501, which was to take effect on July 1, 1984. Section 3 of the Act, which is codified at O.C.G.A. Secs. 16-12-102 to 16-12-104 (1988),2 regulates the distribution and display of sexually explicit materials deemed "harmful to minors" under the definition provided in section 16-12-102.
It may be useful to analyze the challenged statutory provisions as a group of five distinct components: (1) the definition in section 16-12-102 of the type of materials deemed "harmful to minors" and subjected to the proscriptions set forth in section 16-12-103; (2) the ban in section 16-12-103(a) on the distribution (in this case, the sale or loan) to a minor of any material "harmful to minors"; (3) the ban in section 16-12-103(b) on the exhibition to a minor of any motion picture, show, or other presentation that is "harmful to minors"; (4) the prohibition in section 16-12-103(e) on the display in public places where minors may be present of material that is "harmful to minors"; and (5) in section 16-12-104, the exemption from coverage under the statute of certain libraries in the state of Georgia. See American Booksellers Ass'n., v. Webb, 590 F.Supp. 677, 687 (N.D.Ga.1984) (district court order to abstain and grant interim injunctive relief) (hereinafter "Webb I" ) (describing the five component parts of the statute); Hunter v. State, 257 Ga. 571, 571-72, 361 S.E.2d 787, 787 (1987) (same).
The definition of "harmful to minors" in section 16-12-102 derives from a New York statute that the Supreme Court upheld in Ginsberg v. New York, 390 U.S. 629, 88 S.Ct. 1274, 20 L.Ed.2d 195 (1968).3 Ginsberg approved the use of a "variable obscenity standard," see id. at 636-39, 88 S.Ct. at 1278-80--an adaptation of the general standard for determining adult obscenity to reflect the "prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors." Id. at 639, 88 S.Ct. at 1280 (quoting N.Y.Penal Law Sec. 484-h).4 Five years after the Court decided Ginsberg, it revised the standard for determining adult obscenity in Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, 93 S.Ct. 2607, 37 L.Ed.2d 419 (1973). Section 16-12-102 modifies the Ginsberg test for determining material obscene as to minors in light of the three-part test articulated in Miller for determining adult obscenity.5
An accused must "knowingly" violate the statute's various proscriptions. See O.C.G.A. Secs. 16-12-103(a), (b), and (e), and 16-12-102(2). Section 16-12-103(c) also makes it unlawful for any minor falsely to represent that he or she is 18 years of age or older with the intent to procure any material covered by the statute.
B. Procedural History
1. The suit to enjoin.
Plaintiff-appellees are various associations of booksellers, publishers, periodical distributors, college bookstores, and retailers, as well as two general bookstores and an author.6 On April 6, 1984, the day the Governor signed the bill into law, plaintiffs filed their complaint seeking declaratory and injunctive relief. The defendant-appellants are various Georgia solicitors, sheriffs, and police officials who have authority to enforce the law.7
Plaintiffs alleged that the statutory provisions in question violated the First, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution, and 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983.8 Plaintiffs also alleged that the legislature's choice to include in a single enactment provisions relating to sexual offenses against children (Sections I and II of the Act, see footnote 2), together with provisions regulating material "harmful to minors" (Section III of the Act), violated Article III, Section V, Paragraph III of the Georgia Constitution--the rule against referring to more than one subject matter in the same bill.
Since the Act was not scheduled to become effective until July 1, 1984, see O.C.G.A. Sec. 1-3-4(a) (governing effective date of legislative acts), the district court consolidated the hearing on plaintiff's motion for a preliminary injunction with a trial on the merits on May 31-June 1, 1984.
2. Pullman abstention and the certification of questions to the Georgia Supreme Court.
By order dated June 27, 1984, the district court granted defendant's motion to abstain under Railroad Comm'n of Texas v. Pullman Co., 312 U.S. 496, 61 S.Ct. 643, 85 L.Ed. 971 (1941), until the Georgia courts decided whether the Act violated the "one subject matter" provision of the Georgia Constitution. The court did however grant temporary relief to plaintiffs by enjoining the display ban. Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 693-94. In the interest of judicial economy, the court suggested that Appellants also seek a construction of the challenged provisions in the Georgia courts.
Plaintiffs appealed to this court, which granted the parties' joint motion to present two certified questions to the Georgia Supreme Court. American Booksellers Ass'n v. Webb, 744 F.2d 784 (11th Cir.1984).
The Georgia Supreme Court answered the first question by holding that the Act did not violate the "one subject matter" provision of the Georgia Constitution; but the court declined to construe O.C.G.A. Secs. 16-12-102 to 16-12-104 in the absence of enforcement facts, finding instead that the challenge was anticipatory. American Booksellers Ass'n v. Webb, 254 Ga. 399, 329 S.E.2d 495 (1985).
3. The district court's decision on the merits.
On September 26, 1986, on the basis of the factual evidence and legal arguments presented at trial, the district court declared the display provision and library exemption of the statute unconstitutional. Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1556. The court ruled on February 25, 1987, that since the library exemption is not severable from the definition, distribution, exhibition, and display provisions, the entire statute is invalid. American Booksellers Ass'n v. Webb, 654 F.Supp. 503 (N.D.Ga.1987).9 The court nevertheless stayed that portion of its injunction involving the definition, distribution, and exhibition provisions of the statute pending this appeal.
a. findings of fact
The district court found "that in-store display of books is the cornerstone of the [bookselling] industry's marketing practices. Relatively few books are advertised through the mass media, and, as a result, the vast majority of sales are impulsive selections prompted by a display." Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1549. The court also found as matter of fact that approximately 500,000 books are in print at any given time and 50,000 new books are published every year; therefore, booksellers "cannot hope to read more than a minimal percentage of books that they stock." Id. at 1550.
b. conclusions of law
The court made various legal interpretations regarding the coverage of the statute's "harmful to minors" definition and thus the reach of the ban on display. Although several of its findings were noted as "findings of fact," see id. at 1549-51, the parties agree that "the district court's determinations as to the scope of the phrase 'harmful to minors,' and its specific applicability to particular works" are mixed questions of law and fact. Appellees' Brief at 11-12. See Appellants' Brief at 11.10 The district court found that "a significant percentage of an average bookstore's inventory would be barred from display" by the statute, id. at 1549, and " 'that the predominate amount of all adult reading material, fiction and nonfiction, could arguably be encompassed within the terms of [the Act].' " Id. at 1550 (quoting witness Florence). The court made these observations on the basis of its interpretation that the "serious value" prong of the "harmful to minors" definition must be evaluated in light of what "most minors," including the youngest potential readers, could understand and appreciate. Id.
The court declined to construe section 16-12-103(e)'s requirement that a person must not "knowingly ... exhibit, expose, or display in public ... at any ... public place frequented by minors or where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public: [any material subject to the statute]." Rather than determining the least burdensome compliance strategy actually mandated by this language and then evaluating its constitutionality, the court held that displaying material in an adults-only section of a store open to minors, or covering books with blinder racks or adults-only tags, "would not save the display provision as it is currently drafted" since, given the court's earlier interpretation of the vast amount of works covered by the statute, these strategies "would produce a chilling effect." Id. at 1554.
Similarly, the court found that the statute was not a reasonable time, place, and manner restriction since (1) "the methods of display left available in the wake of the Act do not adequately serve the interests of free speech," and (2) defendants failed to submit sufficient evidence that "the limited contact a minor may have with materials displayed in a bookstore produces a negative [secondary effect of speech]" that the state may regulate. Id. at 1555.
The court noted, however, that "the chilling effect attendant to the compliance methods suggested by the defendants might be acceptable if the statute did not apply to "classic works of literature" and the predominant amount of adult reading material. Id. at 1554. In fact, as the court stated, "a display statute that applies only to materials inappropriate for minors approaching the age of majority might well survive a constitutional attack." Id. at 1556. See also id. at 1554 n. 17.
Finally, the court found that the statutory exemption provided to libraries is a classification infringing upon a fundamental right. Since the strict scrutiny test is applicable under the Equal Protection Clause to classifications affecting the exercise of fundamental rights, and the government failed to demonstrate that the library exemption promoted a compelling governmental interest through a narrowly drawn classification, the court found the exemption unconstitutional.11
C. Issues on Appeal
This appeal requires us first to determine whether the reach of the "harmful to minors" definition in section 16-12-102 must be evaluated from the perspective of "any reasonable minor," including an older minor, or whether the tests must be applied in light of the sensibilities and literary comprehension of "most" minors, the "average," or even the youngest minor who might seek access to books or other materials with explicit sexual conduct. Second, we must evaluate the burden on protected speech in light of (1) our interpretation of the amount of material covered and (2) the methods of compliance actually mandated by the ban on display. Finally, we will decide the appropriate standard of review for the classification drawn by the Georgia legislature regarding who may distribute and display to minors material covered by the Act, and who may not.
DISCUSSION
II. REVIEWING A FIRST AMENDMENT REGULATION FOR FACIAL VALIDITY
Before considering the specific test or standards by which we must measure the constitutionality of the display ban, it is important to articulate the general interpretive principles applicable in a facial challenge to a statute affecting speech. Outside of the First Amendment context, the Supreme Court has noted the difficulties inherent in a facial challenge:
that "[a] facial challenge to a legislative Act is, of course, the most difficult challenge to mount successfully, since the challenger must establish that no set of circumstances exist under which the Act would be valid. The fact that [the challenged statute] might operate unconstitutionally under some conceivable set of circumstances is insufficient to render it wholly invalid...."
United States v. Salerno, 481 U.S. 739, 745, 107 S.Ct. 2095, 2100, 95 L.Ed.2d 697 (1987).
The. Schall v. Martin, 467 U.S. 253, 104 S.Ct. 2403, 81 L.Ed.2d 207 (1984). Since the overbreadth doctrine in effect requires courts to evaluate the potential reach of a statute, conceivable sets of circumstances, and possible direct and indirect burdens on speech,12 "[t]he Supreme Court has noted that the overbreadth doctrine is 'strong medicine' that should be employed only 'with hesitation, and then "only as a last resort." ' " Upper Midwest Booksellers v. City of Minneapolis, 780 F.2d 1389, 1391 (8th Cir.1986) (quoting New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, 769, 102 S.Ct. 3348, 3361, 73 L.Ed.2d 1113 (1982) (in turn quoting Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 613, 93 S.Ct. 2908, 2916-17, 37 L.Ed.2d 830 (1973)).
When the regulation is not directed at the origin of expression, or at the ultimate right of a person (in this case, an adult) to present or procure protected expression, it does not impinge upon "mere speech"; rather, it regulates the method of presenting, or the form of, expression. Regulations on display affect "conduct plus speech." Upper Midwest Booksellers, 780 F.2d at 1391-92; M.S. News Co. v. Casado, 721 F.2d 1281, 1289 (10th Cir.1983); American Booksellers Ass'n v. Rendell, 332 Pa.Super. 537, 581, 481 A.2d 919, 941 (1984). "[W]hen conduct plus speech is involved, the overbreadth must be 'real' and 'substantial' in relation to [the regulation's] 'plainly legitimate sweep' before the [regulation] should be invalidated on its face." Upper Midwest Booksellers, 780 F.2d at 1391-92 (quoting Ferber, 458 U.S. at 770, 102 S.Ct. at 3361-62).
As the Supreme Court recently stated when considering a facial challenge to a Virginia regulation on the display of materials "harmful to juveniles," courts have an obligation to construe the challenged statute narrowly:). The key to application of this principle is that the statute must be "readily susceptible" to limitation. We will not rewrite a state law to conform it to constitutional requirements.
Virginia v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 484 U.S. 383, 397, 108 S.Ct. 636, 644-45, 98 L.Ed.2d 782 (1988).13 Thus, we must consider the allegations of the potential range of materials covered by the statute, and the possible burdens on adults' access imposed by mandatory compliance measures, in light of our twin obligations to (1) construe the statute narrowly, (2) without rewriting its terms.
III. FIRST AMENDMENT STANDARDS
We decline to restate the bedrock case law and general principles of First Amendment jurisprudence which guide our analysis. We are content to note that (1) content-based restrictions on speech survive constitutional scrutiny only under extraordinary circumstances; but (2) material judged "obscene" under the appropriate constitutional standard is not protected by the First Amendment; (3) indirect burdens placed on protected speech in an effort to regulate obscenity must be supported by important state interests and should not be unnecessarily burdensome; and (4) the state's interest in protecting its youth justifies a limited burden on free expression. See generally Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1551-52 (and cases cited therein).
We begin our analysis with the Supreme Court's decision in Ginsberg that a state may deny minors access to materials acceptable for adults but obscene for minors. While the statute in Ginsberg banned only the sale or distribution of this material to minors and did not implicate the First Amendment rights of adults, it is clear from our reading of Ginsberg that a state may, absent an impermissible burden on adults, deny minors all access in any form to materials obscene as to them. Minors have no right to view or in any way consume this material--even if they do not purchase or otherwise take control of it.14
Ginsberg did not address the difficulties which arise when the government's protection of minors burdens (even indirectly) adults' access to material protected as to them. We must look to other case law and general principles of First Amendment jurisprudence to discern the constitutional parameters of the government's power under these circumstances. First, it is clear that a state may not prohibit an adult's access to material that is obscene for minors but not for adults. As the Supreme Court recently reiterated, the First Amendment forbids reducing the adult population to reading and viewing only works suitable for children. Virginia v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 484 U.S. at 389, 108 S.Ct. at 640-41 (citing Bolger v. Youngs Drug Products Corp., 463 U.S. 60, 73-74, 103 S.Ct. 2875, 2883-84, 77 L.Ed.2d 469 (1983); Butler v. Michigan, 352 U.S. 380, 383-84, 77 S.Ct. 524, 525-26, 1 L.Ed.2d 412 (1957)). Even where statutes have not been upheld, however, the Supreme Court has recognized that some limitation on the access of adults to material protected for them but harmful to minors is permissible. Sable Communications of California, Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 109 S.Ct. 2829, 2838-39, 106 L.Ed.2d 93 (1989) (invalidating total ban on adult access to indecent telephone messages but intimating that a statute restricting access through certain means would be narrowly tailored and constitutional); Butler, 352 U.S. at 383, 77 S.Ct. at 525-26 (invalidating statute banning reading materials inappropriate for children, but implying that a statute "reasonably restricted to the evil with which it is said to deal" would be constitutional).
Several courts evaluating variously defined display regulations such as the instant one have emphasized that the state's legitimate interest in protecting its young must be balanced against the right of adults to have access to protected material. See, e.g., Upper Midwest Booksellers, 780 F.2d at 1394-95; Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1552. On the one hand, a state's interest in protecting children from exposure to material obscene as to minors is a substantial and important state interest. Ferber, 458 U.S. at 757, 102 S.Ct. at 3354-55 (1982); Ginsberg, 390 U.S. at 639-42, 88 S.Ct. at 1280-82. On the other hand, the indirect burden on adults' First Amendment right to have access to material not obscene for adults must be narrowly drawn. See Upper Midwest Booksellers, 780 F.2d at 1396-97 (regulation must leave open adequate alternative channels, must not restrict expression at its source, and must not impose "significant" restrictions on adult access); M.S. News Co., 721 F.2d at 1288 (restriction on adults' access to material that is not obscene as to them must be reasonable); Rendell, 332 Pa.Super. at 581, 481 A.2d at 941 ("incidental restrictions on First Amendment freedoms must be limited to those essential to the furtherance of that interest") (citation omitted).
A number of courts have evaluated variously defined restrictions on the display of material "harmful to minors" in light of the constitutional standards for a reasonable time, place, and manner regulation. Display restrictions affect the manner in which speech may be presented or accessed, in contrast to a regulation of pure speech at its source or an outright ban on its accessibility to adults.15
We see no relevant distinction in this case between the constitutional standards applicable to a time, place, and manner restriction,16 and the balancing test described above for a regulation of speech unprotected as to minors that indirectly affects speech protected as to adults. In evaluating the display ban under either test, the crucial inquiry, at least in this case, is whether the restriction on adults' access to protected speech is unnecessarily burdensome or "significant," or, stated differently, whether alternate modes of adult access are unduly restricted.
Appellees contend that Georgia's restriction on the display of material "harmful to minors" burdens protected activity in many ways. The district court considered those potential burdens under the general rubric of "overbreadth analysis"--a phrase that courts often use loosely to refer to the propensity of a statute to sweep protected activity into its purview, or unnecessarily to burden protected activity through the collateral effects of its operation on unprotected activity. There are, however, several distinct types of overbreadth alleged in this case, each of which require separate analysis.
IV. OVERBREADTH ANALYSIS
A. Direct Regulation of Protected Activity.
The type of "legislative overkill" most commonly associated with "overbreadth" results when lawmakers define the scope of a statute to reach both unprotected expression as well as, at least potentially, protected speech. For example, in American Booksellers Ass'n v. McAuliffe, 533 F.Supp. 50 (N.D.Ga.1981), the court struck down as overbroad a Georgia statute banning the distribution to minors of, inter alia, a "picture of nude or partially denuded figures posed or presented in a manner to provoke or arouse lust or passion or to exploit sex." On its face, the statute covered material that would not be obscene as to minors under the Ginsberg standard; thus, it directly regulated material protected even as to minors and was therefore overbroad. Id. at 52-53.
The definition of material targeted in Georgia Code section 16-12-102 suffers from no such "legislative overkill"; it employs a narrowly crafted Ginsberg-type adaptation of the current definition of adult obscenity announced in Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, 24, 93 S.Ct. 2607, 2614-15, 37 L.Ed.2d 419 (1973). Although the Supreme Court has not decided what effect Miller will have on the Ginsberg formulation of a variable obscenity standard,17 we join other courts in finding that the post-Ginsberg definition of adult obscenity announced in Miller (as modified for determining that which is obscene to minors) does not restrict the scope of materials that a state may regulate. See American Booksellers Ass'n v. Virginia, 882 F.2d 125, 127 n. 2 (4th Cir.1989); M.S. News Co., 721 F.2d at 1286-87. Both the Georgia law at issue in this case and the New York statute approved in Ginsberg "adapted the current obscenity test so it could be used to determine whether material is harmful to minors," id. at 1286 n. 4 (comparing the N.Y. statute in Ginsberg with a Wichita, Kansas ordinance derived from the Miller test). See American Booksellers Ass'n v. Virginia, 882 F.2d at 127. Nothing in Miller casts any doubt on the constitutional viability of a variable standard of obscenity for minors based upon a Ginsberg-like adaptation of the current Supreme Court standard for determining adult obscenity.18
Appellees maintain that section 16-12-102's definition is overly broad because it does not accommodate the differences between older and younger minors in maturity levels and capacity to comprehend literary themes. According to appellees, the use of a single standard for all minors denies older minors access to materials that have serious literary value for them.19
We disagree, and find that Georgia courts would interpret section 16-12-102 in light of Pope v. Illinois, 481 U.S. 497, 107 S.Ct. 1918, 95 L.Ed.2d 439 (1987). In Pope, the Supreme Court construed the test for adult obscenity and held that "[t]he proper inquiry is not whether an ordinary member [of the community] would find serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value in allegedly obscene material, but whether a reasonable person would find such value in the material, taken as a whole." Id. at 500-501, 107 S.Ct. at 1921 (footnote omitted). Hunter v. State, 257 Ga. at 571-72, 361 S.E.2d at 788 (1987). As interpreted in Pope, the first two prongs of the Miller test utilize "contemporary community standards," whereas "serious value" is determined not with reference to "majority approval," but on the basis of whether any reasonable person would find serious value--even if the community as a whole, or the "average" member of the community, would not. 481 U.S. at 500, 107 S.Ct. at 1920-21. See the discussion in footnote 18 above. Pope echoes the fundamental idea that, although "We the People" are sovereign under the Constitution, the Founders added the Bill of Rights as a bulwark against the "tyranny of the majority." If, like the other two prongs of the test for obscenity, we judge "serious value" according to the "degree of local acceptance [the work in question] has won," id. at 500, 107 S.Ct. at 1921, then we would compromise the First Amendment's protection against majoritarian pressure to stifle disfavored expression. See id. at 500-501, 107 S.Ct. at 1920-21; id. at 506, 107 S.Ct. at 1923-24 (Blackmun, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part).
As applied to a Ginsberg-type adaptation of the adult obscenity test, Pope teaches that if any reasonable minor, including a seventeen-year-old, would find serious value, the material is not "harmful to minors."20 As the Fourth Circuit and the Virginia Supreme Court recently observed, " 'if a work is found to have serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for a legitimate minority of normal, older adolescents, then it cannot be said to lack such value for the entire class of juveniles taken as a whole.' " American Booksellers Ass'n v. Virginia, 882 F.2d at 127 (quoting Commonwealth v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 236 Va. 168, 372 S.E.2d 618, 624 (1988)).21
Section 16-12-102 therefore does not reach materials protected as to minors and is not overly broad in that sense. As we discuss below, this interpretation of the statute's coverage also dramatically decreases the amount of material actually covered by the ban on display and the indirect burden suffered by adults as a result.22
Even when the state regulates only speech that is unprotected to one group (minors), the restriction can collaterally burden speech that is protected for another group (adults). The regulation can be "overly broad" if it indirectly produces an unnecessary or intolerable restriction on protected speech.
B. Indirect Regulation of Protected Activity.
1. Overbreadth from indeterminacy.
The overbreadth and vagueness doctrines are related yet distinct. M.S. News Co., 721 F.2d at 1287.
"The vagueness doctrine is anchored in the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, and protects against legislation lacking sufficient clarity of purpose and precision in drafting. See Erznoznik v. City of Jacksonville, [422 U.S. 205,] at 217-218, 95 S.Ct. [2268,] at 2276-77 [45 L.Ed.2d 125 (1975) ]; Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 104, 108-14 & n. 5, 92 S.Ct. 2294, 2298-302 & n. 5, 33 L.Ed.2d 222 and n. 5 (1972).
Id. (footnote omitted). The vagueness doctrine focuses on whether the law in question affords a "person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly." Grayned, 408 U.S. at 108-109, 92 S.Ct. at 2298-99. "Overbroad legislation need not be vague, indeed it may be too clear; its constitutional infirmity is that it sweeps protected activity within its proscription." M.S. News Co., 721 F.2d at 1287 (citation omitted).
The overbreadth and vagueness doctrines are related in that "a court should evaluate the ambiguous as well as the unambiguous scope of the enactment.... [since] ambiguous meanings cause citizens to ' "steer far wider of the unlawful zone" ... than if the boundaries of the forbidden areas were clearly marked.' " Village of Hoffman Estates23, 12 L.Ed.2d 377 (1964); (in turn quoting Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 526, 78 S.Ct. 1332, 1342, 2 L.Ed.2d 1460 (1958)).
Based upon its interpretation that the serious value of a work must be evaluated with reference to that which "most" minors, or even a ten-year-old minor, would appreciate, and that the statute thus applies to a vast amount of adult reading material, the district court found that the statute places an intolerable burden on booksellers to determine which books the display ban would reach. The tremendous volume of material published and the practical inability of booksellers to gain more than a synoptic familiarity with the material they order from publishers would, according to the court, force booksellers to err on the side of caution by "refusing to order [for display] any book with a suggestive cover or the works of an author known for sexually explicit prose." Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1550.
We believe that the burden on booksellers would be far less than the district court suggests. First, since only a minimal number of works will have serious value for reasonable adults but not for reasonable minors, including older minors, the statute will not increase to any great extent the screening that stores must do in order to comply with Georgia's general obscenity statute, O.C.G.A. Sec. 16-12-80.23 Second, despite the increased opportunity to evaluate the fitness of material at the point of sale to minors, as opposed to ordering from a publisher for display sales,24 the display ban will only incrementally increase the screening necessary for booksellers to comply with the prohibition on the sale of "harmful" material to minors, a burden the district found constitutional under Ginsberg--a holding that appellees do not appeal. Finally, section 16-12-103(e) only prohibits displays that are made "knowingly."25 For these reasons, we find that section 16-12-102's definition does not render the display ban substantially overbroad due to indeterminacy.
2. Overbreadth and the burden of mandatory compliance strategies.
If in an ideal world it were possible to make the material defined in section 16-12-102 invisible to minors but completely visible and accessible to adults, we would need to inquire no further. As we interpret it, the statute covers only material unprotected to minors and is not so indeterminate that it unduly chills protected expression. Since in the real world material cannot be made "invisible" to minors without hampering to a certain extent adults' access to it, we must analyze the compliance strategy section 16-12-103(e) actually mandates.
The statutory "breadth" that we analyze in this context refers to the degree of practical inconvenience actually required by the language of subsection (e). Only by focusing on that which the statute requires for compliance with the display ban, rather than on every compliance strategy that is sufficient but not necessary under the statute, can we determine whether section 16-12-103(e) is "substantially overbroad" or "not narrowly drawn." Since this is a facial challenge, we cannot, as appellees seem to suggest, consider the constitutional propriety of the most onerous methods of compliance which a broad reading of subsection (e) could possibly require. Such an evaluation must await specific enforcement facts and a different interpretation of the law by the Georgia courts.
In order to violate section 16-12-103(e), a person must knowingly "exhibit, expose, or display in public ... at any ... public place ... where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public"26 a sexually explicit "visual representation" that satisfies the three-pronged test under section 16-12-102, or "printed material" or a "sound recording" that contains a "visual representation" or a sexually explicit narrative account that is obscene as to minors under section 16-12-102.
First, it is beyond cavil that, regardless of the specific method booksellers27 choose to comply with the statute, they must deny minors unfettered physical access to offensive material. Even if it technically satisfies the prohibition on "display[ing]" such material, any method of compliance by which a person knowingly permits minors an unfettered opportunity to peruse the material would elevate form over substance and violate section 16-12-103(e).
Second, we read "where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public" as limiting the clauses specifying the types of premises upon which display is banned. Thus, if minors are denied access to the premises, booksellers may display such material openly without violating the statute. Indeed, even a separate room or physical structure that is inaccessible to minors could presumably house open displays of the material. But we do not read section 16-12-103(e) as requiring such compliance strategies; thus we need not consider whether the burden on adults' access would be overbroad.
The use of the terms "exhibit," "expose," and "display"--especially as modified by "in public"--strongly suggests that the mere presence of material "harmful to minors," even in that part of premises frequented by minors, would not violate section 16-12-103(e). One court, construing the word "display" in the context of statutory language very similar to section 16-12-103,28 recognized that common dictionary definitions of the term connote an open and ostentatious placement of the material:."
Rendell, 332 Pa.Super. at 575, 481 A.2d at 938 (footnote omitted). The Rendell court interpreted the ban on "display" as not applying to the open shelving of material "harmful to minors":
These definitions suggest that the mere shelving or stocking of questionable material, without in some manner directing attention to them, is not the type of conduct prohibited by virtue of the legislature's use of the term "display."
Id. at 575-76, 481 A.2d at 938-39.
While we agree that the terms "exhibit," "expose," and "display" connote an open and ostentatious placement of the materials, we cannot agree that the Georgia legislature sanctioned in section 16-12-103(e) the open shelving of material "harmful to minors." The use of the term "expose" suggests that even unadvertised and passive placement of the material entirely in open sight would violate section 16-12-103(e).29
Appellants have suggested a number of compliance strategies that they claim would satisfy section 16-12-103(e). They assert that openly displaying material "harmful to minors" in an area "supervised by the clerks in order to keep them out of the hands of minors," Appellants' Brief at 44, or in "adults[-]only racks or sections,"30 id. at 41, would be acceptable. We disagree. Although these methods would prevent actual physical access and perusal by minors--a fundamental aim of the statute--section 16-12-103(e) is not "readily susceptible" to an interpretation allowing such a compliance strategy. Unlike the Virginia statute which the Fourth Circuit recently upheld, section 16-12-103(e) does not contain language that narrows the common usage of the word "display".31 Placing the material entirely in open sight in an establishment "where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public" would violate section 16-12-103(e) despite a "nonperusal" policy or signs indicating that certain otherwise open areas are off-limits to minors.
Appellants also suggest that the statute is satisfied by placing material "harmful to minors" behind devices commonly referred to as "blinder racks" or shelves which cover at least the lower two-thirds of material that would otherwise be exposed to view. Id. at 41-43. See M.S. News, 721 F.2d at 1287 (briefly describing "blinder racks"). We agree. Simply put, blinder racks do not "exhibit, expose, or display in public" material subject to section 16-12-103(e); they eliminate the ostentatious and open placement of the materials.32 Therefore, under our reading of section 16-12-103(e), it is not necessary that booksellers physically segregate material placed behind blinder racks from material accessible to minors. Since the statute is "readily susceptible" to such a reading, we need not consider broader interpretations of the requirements for compliance with section 16-12-103(e). Virginia v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 484 U.S. at 397-99, 108 S.Ct. at 645 (1988).33 Placing the relatively small amount of reading material subject to section 16-12-103 behind blinder racks only slightly burdens adults' access to such material. Blinder racks do not impose a "substantially overbroad" regulation on "conduct plus speech." (See the discussion above at pp. 1499-1500, 1502.) Adults may peruse and purchase the material without restriction. Under either the balancing test for regulations on material protected to one group but not another, or the test for the constitutionality of a time, place, and manner regulation, (see the discussion above at p. 1502), the burden on adults' access to material protected as to them is constitutionally insignificant and therefore permissible. See M.S. News, 721 F.2d at 1288-89 (relying in part on blinder racks exception to uphold statute against facial challenge).
V. EQUAL PROTECTION AND THE LIBRARY EXEMPTION
Section 16-12-104 exempts "any public library operated by the state or any of its political subdivisions[, or] any library operated as a part of any school, college, or university," from each of the restrictions in section 16-12-103 on the distribution, exhibition, or display of materials "harmful to minors." Thus, while it would be unlawful for any person to "sell or loan" to a minor material deemed obscene as to minors under section 16-12-102, or to exhibit to a minor a motion picture satisfying the three-pronged test, it would be permissible for a public library to do so. Similarly, while it would be lawful for a library to display material that is "harmful to minors," a person would be subject to criminal penalties for knowingly undertaking the same activity on the premises of, for example, a convenience store open to minors.
The district court correctly determined that "[t]he critical step in Equal Protection analysis is determining the proper standard of review." Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1555. We disagree, however, with the district court's determination that the legislature's classification in this case is subject to strict scrutiny.
Several courts have addressed this question and have differed on whether strict scrutiny is appropriate. Without elaborating, the district court adopted the approach followed in Upper Midwest Booksellers Ass'n v. City of Minneapolis, 602 F.Supp. 1361, 1374 (D.Minn.1985), aff'd, 780 F.2d 1389, 1398 (8th Cir.1985) (exemption from regulation on manner of display). In that case, the Eighth Circuit affirmed a district court's determination that "the strict scrutiny test is the proper standard whenever government classifies individuals' ability to exercise a fundamental right such as speech." 602 F.Supp. at 1374. Our research indicates that only the Colorado Supreme Court, in Tattered Cover, Inc. v. Tooley, 696 P.2d 780, 786 (Colo.1985), has agreed that strict scrutiny applies to a classification involving materials deemed "harmful to minors."34
The Tenth Circuit held in M.S. News that the rational basis test applies to a "classification that distinguishes between commercial and noncommercial enterprises" in a regulation requiring the former group but not the latter to place behind blinder racks material obscene as to minors.35 721 F.2d at 1291-92. The Ninth Circuit has recently approved of this approach:
We agree with the Tenth Circuit's approach in Casado. The Supreme Court has held that obscene speech is not protected by the first amendment. See Miller v. California,..... Th[e statutes challenged in those cases] all regulated or prohibited protected speech, rather than obscenity.
Ripplinger v. Collins, 868 F.2d 1043, 1050 (9th Cir.1989) (also criticizing the Upper Midwest Booksellers and Webb II approach) (citation omitted). See also Rendell, 332 Pa.Super. at 583, 481 A.2d at 942; Long v. 130 Market St. Gift & Novelty of Johnstown, 294 Pa.Super. 383, 395, 440 A.2d 517, 523 (1982).36
The constitutional protection accorded to the right which the legislature classifies--and thus judicial scrutiny of the classification--should depend not on broad propositions such as "free speech is fundamental," or "obscenity is unprotected," but, rather, on the specific nature of the conduct that the legislature has decreed one group may engage in, while a separate class may not. By looking precisely at the conduct implicated by the exemptions to each of the provisions in the Georgia statute, we see that the classification on the right to sell or loan material to minors that is obscene as to them is somewhat distinct from the right to display such material to adults without regulation.37
A. A classification on the Right to Sell or Loan Obscene Materials to Minors.
The Ginsberg Court held without equivocation that the Constitution does not protect the decision to sell or loan to minors material that is obscene under a variable obscenity standard. If the state has a rational basis for concluding that a legitimate interest will be served by the classification, it may create distinctions between the rights of persons and entities to engage in conduct not protected by the Constitution. San Antonio Indep. School Dist. v. Rodriguez, 411 U.S. 1, 29, 93 S.Ct. 1278, 1294-95, 36 L.Ed.2d 16 (1973).
The state clearly has an interest in making such material available to minors, if at all, only in an environment free of the commercial pressure to pander to a minor's prurient interest in sex. See Paris Adult Theatre I v. Slaton, 413 U.S. 49, 57, 93 S.Ct. 2628, 2635, 37 L.Ed.2d 446 (1973); Young v. American Mini Theatres, 427 U.S. 50, 69, 96 S.Ct. 2440, 2452, 49 L.Ed.2d 310 (1976) (plurality). Although the exclusion under the Miller test (as adapted in light of Ginsberg, see section 16-12-102(1)(C)) for material with "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value to minors" will already exempt most sexually explicit material that one would expect to find in a public library, the library exemption preserves the accessibility of such material to minors for purely educational purposes.38
The fact that the state has chosen not to exempt all noncommercial entities, or even specific noncommercial entities that could be expected to promote the same interests as libraries, is of no consequence so long as the particular exemption chosen has, as in this case, a rational basis. If the classification itself is not based upon a suspect distinction such as race,39 the Equal Protection Clause is not offended by an under-inclusive or over-inclusive restriction on one's ability to engage in conduct that is not protected by the Constitution. United States v. Thornton, 901 F.2d 738 (9th Cir.1990). Finally, striking down such an exemption would hinder rather than promote robust speech.
B. A Classification on the Right to Display Material Obscene as to Minors.
Although the classification between libraries and nonlibraries presents a closer question when applied to the ban on the display of materials obscene as to minors, we find that strict scrutiny is not warranted. First, we note that while the Constitution does not protect the distribution to minors of material obscene as to them, creators, publishers, and sellers of such material, as well as adults, are protected from significant or overbroad restrictions on adults' access to materials not obscene as to adults. Nevertheless, as we discussed above, this protection is not absolute. Since the state may make such material unavailable to one segment of society--minors--due to its offensiveness and lack of "serious value" for them, it may also impose a necessary and moderate amount of burden on the group for whom such material is protected--adults--in an effort to protect young adolescents. Simply put, the Constitution does not protect unfettered, open placement of such materials in public places accessible to minors.
Even though the First Amendment is unoffended by a requirement that erotic material not obscene to adults be placed behind blinder racks, we must consider whether, given the unique nature of the right involved, a state may allow one group of entities--libraries--to operate free of this restriction, while all other entities must adhere to the ban on display.
First, we note that the plurality in American Mini Theatres found that even a content-based classification of exotic but not obscene material did not violate the Equal Protection Clause since what was ultimately at stake was not the material's total suppression, but only the place where it could be exhibited. 427 U.S. at 71-72, 96 S.Ct. at 2452-53.40
.
Id. at 70-71, 96 S.Ct. at 2452.
The classification drawn between libraries and nonlibraries in section 16-12-104 is even less deserving of strict scrutiny since, unlike the zoning ordinance in American Mini Theatres, it turns not on the content of the material presented--the exemption and the ban on display operate only on material obscene as to minors--but on the characteristics of the entity displaying the material--the medium of expression. See Ripplinger, 868 F.2d at 1051.
The exemption for display of materials harmful to minors at libraries serves the same interests as the exemption for distribution and is rationally related to making material covered by the Act available in an atmosphere free of commercial pressure and generally available for educational purposes. As stated above, the under- or over-inclusiveness of the classification does not offend the Equal Protection clause so long as the classification is rationally related to the state's interest.41
CONCLUSION
The judgment of the district court is REVERSED.
APPENDIX
16-12-102 Definitions.
As used in this part, the term:
(1) "Harmful to minors" means that quality of description or representation, in whatever form, of nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement, or sadomasochistic abuse, when it:
(A) Taken as a whole, predominantly.
(2) "Knowingly" means having a general knowledge of, or reason to know, or a belief or ground for belief which warrants further inspection or inquiry of both:
(A) The character and content of any material described in this part which is reasonably susceptible to examination by the defendant; and
(B) The age of the minor; provided, however, that an honest mistake shall constitute an excuse from liability in this part if the defendant made a reasonable, bona fide attempt to ascertain the true age of such minor.
(3) "Minor" means a person less than 18 years of age.
(4) "Sadomasochistic abuse" means actual or simulated flagellation or torture by or upon a person who is nude, clad in undergarments, a mask or bizarre costume, or the condition of being fettered, bound, or otherwise physically restrained by one so clothed or nude.
(5) "Sexual conduct" means actual or simulated acts of masturbation, homosexuality, sexual intercourse, or physical contact in an act of apparent sexual stimulation or gratification with a person's clothed or unclothed genitals, pubic area, buttocks, or, if such be female, breasts.
(6) "Sexual excitement" means the condition of human male or female genitals when in a state of sexual stimulation or arousal.
(7) "Sexually explicit. (Code 1981, Sec. 16-12-102, enacted by Ga.L.1983, p. 1437, Sec. 2; Ga.L.1984, p. 1495, Sec. 3.)
16-12-103. Selling, loaning, or exhibiting.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to sell or loan for monetary consideration or otherwise furnish or disseminate to a minor:
.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to sell or furnish to a minor an admission ticket or pass or knowingly to admit a minor to premises whereon there is exhibited a motion picture, show, or other presentation which, in whole or in part, depicts sexually explicit nudity, sexual conduct, or sadomasochistic abuse and which is harmful to minors or exhibit any such motion picture at any such premises which are not designed to prevent viewing from any public way of such motion picture by minors not admitted to any such premises.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any minor falsely to represent to any person mentioned in subsection (a) or subsection (b) of this Code section or to his agent that such.
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to make a false representation to any person mentioned in subsection (a) or subsection (b) of this Code section or to his agent that he is the parent or guardian of any minor or that any.
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to exhibit, expose, or display in public at newsstands or any other business or commercial establishment or at any other public place frequented by minors or where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public:
. (Code 1981, Secs. 16-12-103, 16-12-104, enacted by Ga.L.1983, p. 1437, Sec. 2; Ga.L.1984, p. 22 Sec. 16; Ga.L.1984, p. 1495, Sec. 3.)
16-12-104. Library exception.
The provisions of the Code Section 16-12-103 [the distribution, exhibition, and display bans] shall not apply to any public library operated by the state or any of its political subdivisions nor to any library operated as a part of any school, college, or university. (Code 1981, Sec. 16-12-104, enacted by Ga.L.1984, p. 1495, Sec. 3.)
POINTER, Chief District Judge, concurring in part and dissenting in part:
I agree with most of the majority's opinion, and specifically concur in the decision that the library exemption provided by section 16-12-104 is constitutional.
I respectfully dissent, however, from the decision upholding the display proscriptions of section 16-12-103(e). In Part IV-B-2 of the opinion, the majority conclude that section 16-12-103(e) can be read to permit booksellers to avoid criminal penalties by using "blinder racks." If I agreed on this point, I would agree with their decision as to the constitutionality of the section. Although on this appeal we should assume that Georgia would adopt a narrow construction of the section, any such narrowing construction would have to be a reasonable one in the light of the words of the statute. I do not believe that the statute adopted by the Georgia legislature is "readily susceptible" to the interpretation approved by the majority.
Section 16-12-103(e) makes it unlawful to "display in public at ... any ... business or commercial establishment or at any other public place ... where minors are or may be invited as part of the general public ... any ... printed matter ... which contains any ... explicit and detailed verbal descriptions ... of sexual conduct ... and which, taken as a whole, is harmful to minors." (emphasis added ) The statute does more than prohibit the display of the materials that are harmful to minors; it prohibits the display of printed matter that "contains" such harmful materials. It makes criminal the display of a magazine with an innocuous cover if harmful materials are to be found inside the cover--and this is so whether or not any minor is permitted to view the harmful materials themselves. The proscription would likewise apply if a portion of the cover were shielded by "blinder racks."
The only case mentioned in the opinion when discussing this question is M.S. News Co. v. Casado, 721 F.2d 1281 (10th Cir.1983). M.S. News does support the proposition that permitting materials to be displayed behind blinder racks would save the statute from attack; it does not, however, provide any support for concluding that the Georgia statute contains any such exception. The city ordinance at issue in that case prohibited the display of harmful materials (not of publications containing such materials) and contained an express exception for displays in blinder racks.
I suggest that the majority, under the rubric of interpreting or construing the statute, have simply rewritten it.
Honorable Sam C. Pointer, Jr., Chief U.S. District Judge for the Northern District of Alabama, sitting by designation
The display ban implicates not only the right of adults to have access to material protected by the First Amendment, but also the interests of authors, publishers, booksellers, and others affected by a law regulating consumer access to books and other material covered by the statute. For the sake of brevity, we will refer throughout this opinion to "adults' access" as a shorthand expression denoting all of the interests affected by the statute
The statutory provisions relevant to this appeal, O.C.G.A. Secs. 16-12-102 to 16-12-104, are set forth in the Appendix to this opinion
Sections 1 and 2 of the Act amended O.C.G.A. Secs. 16-6-4 and 16-6-5, which relate to the criminal sexual offenses of, respectively, child molestation and enticing a child for indecent purposes.
Except where noted by the context, as used hereinafter in this opinion the terms "the Act," "the statute," or "the statutory provisions" will refer to sections 16-12-102 to 16-12-104.
The New York statute upheld in Ginsberg banned only the sale or distribution to minors of material "harmful to minors."
In general, material is not "harmful to minors" under the Georgia statute unless it (1) taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest of minors, (2) is patently offensive to standards in the adult community with regard to what is suitable for minors, and (3) taken as a whole, lacks serious value. See O.C.G.A. Sec. 16-12-102(1)
For a more detailed discussion of the changes to the Ginsberg formulation wrought by Miller, see footnote 18
The Attorney General of Georgia is not named as a defendant, but was served with a copy of the proceedings pursuant to O.C.G.A. section 9-4-7(c) and retained a special assistant attorney general to act as lead counsel for most of the defendants. See Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 681 n. 2. The district court determined that all state law enforcement officials are bound by the outcome of this case. Id. at 693
Count I of the complaint alleged that the bans on distribution and display are unconstitutionally overbroad because they apply to materials that are not obscene as to minors. Count II alleged that the display provision violates adults' First Amendment right of access to materials that are not obscene as to them. Count III alleged that the statute effects an unconstitutional prior restraint on speech. Count IV alleged that the definition of "harmful to minors" contained in the statute is unconstitutionally vague. Count V alleged that the exemption for libraries violates the Equal Protection Clause. Count VI alleged that the statute violates a parent's right to raise his or her child free from state interference. Count VII is the state law count described in the text below. See Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 682
Proceedings in this court were stayed from February 8, 1988 until December 6, 1988, due to the pendency of a case in the United States Supreme Court involving similar issues. Virginia v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 484 U.S. 383, 108 S.Ct. 636, 98 L.Ed.2d 782 (1988) (certifying questions to the Virginia Supreme Court); 488 U.S. 905, 109 S.Ct. 254, 102 L.Ed.2d 243 (1988) (vacating earlier decision and remanding the case to the Fourth Circuit for reconsideration in light of the answers received). See also American Booksellers Ass'n v. Virginia, 882 F.2d 125 (4th Cir.1989) (upholding facial validity of display regulation as interpreted by Virginia Supreme Court)
Unfortunately, the final Fourth Circuit decision does not provide us substantial guidance. The 1.5 page opinion aids our analysis only in part. While it aids our construction of the Georgia statute's phrase "harmful to minors" (see below at page 1505), the opinion does not aid our analysis of the compliance strategies mandated by section 16-12-103(e) (see below at footnote 31 and accompanying text). Furthermore, the opinion decided the vagueness issue but did not delve into overbreadth or the relationship between the vagueness and overbreadth doctrines, as we do in Part IV.
See also McMullen v. Carson, 754 F.2d 936, 938 (11th Cir.1985). ("In reviewing findings of fact in First Amendment cases, this Court must make an 'independent examination of the whole record,' rather than relying solely on the 'clearly erroneous' standard.") (citations omitted)
The district court's September 26, 1986, order addressed only plaintiffs' challenges to the display and library exemption provisions of the statute
The court relied on the reasons stated in its June 27, 1984, order, see Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 687-92, to "reject[ ] plaintiffs' contentions with respect to the definition, distribution, and exhibition components of the Act." Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1551 n. 10. Appellees have not argued on appeal that the district court was incorrect to reject these alleged constitutional infirmities; thus, we do not address these arguments as alternative grounds for upholding the district court's determination that the Act is unconstitutional.
Since it concluded that the display provision was substantially overbroad, the district court declined to reach plaintiffs' contention that the display component is unconstitutionally vague. Appellees have not argued on appeal that any of the provisions in question fail to provide the fair notice required under the Due Process Clause as to what constitutes a criminal offense under the Act; therefore, we need not address that claim either. Appellees have argued, however, that booksellers face an intolerable First Amendment burden in determining which materials are "harmful to minors" under the statutory definition in section 16-12-102. We address that claim at pp. 1505-1506.
Village of Hoffman Estates, Inc.22-23, 12 L.Ed.2d 377 (1964); (in turn quoting Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 526, 78 S.Ct. 1332, 1342, 2 L.Ed.2d 1460 (1958))
In its last term, the Supreme Court upheld a statute which prohibited the possession of "nude" photographs of minors, subject to several exemptions and "proper purposes" provisions. Osborne v. Ohio, --- U.S. ----, 110 S.Ct. 1691, 109 L.Ed.2d 98 (citation omitted). The Court noted that "depictions of nudity, without more, constitute protected expression." 110 S.Ct. at 1698 (citing Ferber, 458 U.S. at 765 n. 18, 102 S.Ct. at 3359 n. 18). And given the broad language, "it takes no great feat of imagination to envision situations in which such an ordinance might be unconstitutionally applied." 110 S.Ct. at 1701. However, since the Ohio Supreme Court read the statute as requiring "a lewd exhibition or ... a graphic focus on the genitals," the Court upheld the statute against an overbreadth challenge
The New York statute upheld in Ginsberg extended beyond the sale of such objectionable materials to its exhibition or presentation to minors. See N.Y.Penal Law Sec. 484-h, construed in Ginsberg, 390 U.S. at 647, 88 S.Ct. at 1284-85. It would be quite anomalous for a court to find that while minors have no right to purchase material unprotected to them, they nevertheless have a right to read or otherwise consume the material without taking permanent control over it as their own property
The cases discussed in the text above at pp. 1499-1500 with regard to standards of review for facial overbreadth challenges hold that regulations on display affect only the manner in which speech may be presented. Upper Midwest Booksellers, 780 F.2d at 1391-92; M.S. News Co., 721 F.2d at 1289; Rendell, 332 Pa.Super. at 581, 481 A.2d at 941
In order to be upheld as a reasonable time, place, and manner restriction, a statute must (1) not be based on content or subject matter, (2) be narrowly drawn, (3) further a significant governmental interest, and (4) allow for sufficient alternative forms of expression. City of Renton v. Playtime Theatres, Inc., 475 U.S. 41, 106 S.Ct. 925, 89 L.Ed.2d 29 (1986); Regan v. Time, Inc., 468 U.S. 641, 104 S.Ct. 3262, 82 L.Ed.2d 487 (1984); Clark v. Community for Creative Non-Violence, 468 U.S. 288, 104 S.Ct. 3065, 82 L.Ed.2d 221 (1984)
As the district court acknowledged, "the Playtime Theatres Court concluded that a restriction is content-neutral if it is concerned with the 'secondary effects' of the speech at issue ..., rather than with eradicating a particular type of speech." 643 F.Supp. at 1554 (citations omitted). The "secondary effects" of the regulated speech in Playtime Theatres related to the negative impact of adult theaters or "regulated uses" on a neighborhood's environment. The "secondary effects" of materials protected for adults but obscene to minors stem from the impact of in-store access to such materials by minors. The district court found that the defendants presented no evidence of such "secondary effects" from in-store access. The court reasoned that while in Ginsberg the Supreme Court required only a rational basis for the legislative conclusion that an unlimited right to purchase and view sexually explicit materials would be harmful to minors, since the right of adults to have access to such material is implicated, unlike in Ginsberg, a higher evidentiary standard is required under Playtime Theatres.
We agree with the Upper Midwest Booksellers court in finding that the empirical data required to sustain intricate commercial zoning regulations is not necessary to sustain the type of legislation at issue in this case. 780 F.2d at 1397 n. 11. As the Upper Midwest court observed, "[w]e see no [legally relevant] distinction between finding that exposure by virtue of the display of proscribed materials is harmful to minors and finding that the sale of proscribed material is harmful." Id. A court need only determine that "it was not irrational for the legislature to find that [even fleeting] exposure to material condemned by the statute is harmful to minors." Ginsberg, 390 U.S. at 641, 88 S.Ct. at 1281.
Erznoznik v. City of Jacksonville, 422 U.S. 205, 213 n. 10, 95 S.Ct. 2268, 2275 n. 10, 45 L.Ed.2d 125 (1974)
A comparison of (1) the Ginsberg standard, (2) the Miller standard and (3) the standard articulated in O.C.G.A. Sec. 16-12-102 discloses that Miller does not affect the validity of the definition utilized in the Georgia statute, and in general only modifies the third prong of the Ginsberg standard for obscenity
The first prongs of all three tests are essentially the same. Compare Memoirs v. Massachusetts, 383 U.S. 413, 418, 86 S.Ct. 975, 977, 16 L.Ed.2d 1 (1966) (plurality opinion) and Ginsberg, 390 U.S. at 633, 88 S.Ct. at 1276-77 with Miller, 413 U.S. at 24, 93 S.Ct. at 2614-15 and O.C.G.A. section 16-12-102(1)(A).
The district court suggested that "[t]he Miller obscenity test does not incorporate the 'taken as a whole' standard into the second part of the test [articulated in Memoirs and Ginsberg ]." Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 688. The second question in the Memoirs-Ginsberg test is whether the material is "patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors." Ginsberg, 390 U.S. at 633, 88 S.Ct. at 1276-77. Cf. Memoirs, 383 U.S. at 418, 86 S.Ct. at 977 (adult standard). Similarly, the second test for adult obscenity in Miller is "whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law." Miller, 413 U.S. at 24, 93 S.Ct. at 2615. Section 16-12-102(1)(B) retains the Ginsberg "as a whole" language for the second prong; therefore, even assuming arguendo that Miller relaxed the standard, the Georgia definition and those like it are either (1) completely consistent with Miller, or (2) narrower than the second prong of the more recent test articulated in Miller. A state is entirely free to adopt a test for obscenity that is narrower than current First Amendment jurisprudence requires.
Our reading of the second prong of the test articulated in Memoirs, see 383 U.S. at 418, 86 S.Ct. at 977, and in Ginsberg, see 390 U.S. at 633, 88 S.Ct. at 1276-77, satisfies us that the Memoirs-Ginsberg test for whether the material is "patently offensive" refers specifically to the objectionable portion of the work in question and does not, indeed, cannot logically, be evaluated on the basis of the work as a whole. That is, whether the sexually explicit portion of the work is "patently offensive,"--a necessary condition that is distinct from the other two prongs--does not depend upon or in any way relate to the "work as a whole" or to the unobjectionable portions of the allegedly obscene work. Thus, the absence of the "as a whole" language in the Miller test does not work a change in the second prong of the obscenity test.
The apparent confusion stems from the fact that the particular articulation of the second test in the statute at issue in Ginsberg asks whether the material was "patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole." 390 U.S. at 633, 88 S.Ct. at 1276-77. The plurality opinion in Memoirs makes no mention of the "as a whole" requirement. See 383 U.S. at 418, 86 S.Ct. at 977. It is our view that the phrase "as a whole" merely modifies "community" and expresses the idea articulated in Memoirs and a later case, Pope v. Illinois, 481 U.S. 497, 107 S.Ct. 1918, 95 L.Ed.2d 439 (1987), that the first and second tests under the pre- and post-Ginsberg (i.e., Miller ) definition of obscenity must be judged with reference to the "average" member of the "whole" community, whereas the third prong is decided with reference to whether a reasonable member of the community would find serious value in the allegedly obscene material, regardless of whether the "average" member of the community or the community "as a whole" would find serious value. Id.; Hunter v. State, 257 Ga. 571, 573, 361 S.E.2d 787, 789 (1987). The first and third prongs also require that the allegedly obscene material be viewed "as a whole." Id.
The interpretation that the first two prongs of the Memoirs-Ginsberg definition of obscenity were not changed by Miller in any way material to this appeal is further supported by the fact that the Miller Court did not distinguish the first two prongs of its obscenity test from the Memoirs-Ginsberg test, yet it explicitly declined to adopt the "utterly without redeeming social value" test articulated in Memoirs and used in Ginsberg. The Court instead stated that the state need not prove an "utter" lack of value--a "test that called on the prosecution to prove a negative, i.e., ... a burden virtually impossible to discharge under our criminal standards of proof," 413 U.S. at 22, 93 S.Ct. at 2613, but must instead show that the material, "taken as a whole," lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value." Id. at 24, 93 S.Ct. at 2615. In other words, Miller relaxed the third prong of the obscenity test and allowed the government to regulate material that satisfies the other two prongs of the test and has little or no value to society. We see no reason why the change in section 16-12-102(1)(C) to reflect the Miller standard for serious value should in any way affect the Ginsberg holding that the government may prohibit the sale or distribution of material deemed obscene under the current Supreme Court definition of obscenity for adults, as modified to apply to minors.
The district court seemed to reject this argument in its first order: "the Court cannot accept plaintiffs' premise that a single standard for all minors necessarily ... 'restrict[s] older minors to reading or reviewing that which is appropriate for the very young or immature child,' " Webb I, 590 F.Supp. at 688-89 (footnote omitted), only to embrace it in its second order. The Webb II court interpreted the statute to cover " 'the predominant amount of all of the adult reading material' " because the serious value prong must be applied in light of what "most" minors can comprehend, and would cover any work satisfying the first two prongs of the obscenity test while having serious literary value that a ten-year-old could not appreciate, Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1550, or that would not be suitable for a fifth-grade reading list, id. at 1548
A seventeen-year-old is of course a member of the group to which "prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors" must be applied under Sec. 16-12-102(1)(C). The addition of a second layer of analysis in a variable obscenity standard, i.e., asking what a reasonable member of the adult community thinks would hold serious literary value for a reasonable minor, does not affect the rule articulated in Pope
The Supreme Court made no mention of any such overbreadth problem when it upheld the New York statute in Ginsberg despite the fact that the "utterly without redeeming social value" prong of the then-current obscenity standard made no explicit provision for the varying levels of maturity and literary comprehension amongst minors. Curiously, appellees do not appeal the ban on the sale or loan of material defined in section 16-12-102 even though the interpretation that the statute covers material that would hold serious value for older minors would raise serious constitutional overbreadth concerns for both a display ban and a prohibition on sales to older minors. The encroachment on the access of older minors to material which holds serious literary value for them would be just as great if the statute in question banned the sale of such protected material to older minors as if the statute banned its display
This is not to say that the statute covers only material already subject to Georgia's general obscenity statute, O.C.G.A. Sec. 16-12-80.!' "
The district court agreed that if "materials can be displayed if they hold literary value for anyone under the age of eighteen," 643 F.Supp. at 1554 n. 17, the burden on booksellers would be substantially decreased. "The court indicates that if the display provision applied only to material on the fringe of protected expression," id. at 1554, or only material "inappropriate for minors approaching the age of majority," id. at 1556, it would be constitutional
A bookstore owner testified that it is easier to comply with the sales prohibition since "at the point of sale [the bookseller] has the opportunity to assess the maturity of the purchaser and to review the book selected." Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1551 n. 9
We have omitted several of the more specific terms in section 16-12-103(e) that are somewhat redundant given the more general phrases also utilized
We use the word "booksellers" throughout this passage to refer generically to any person subject to the statute
The statute at issue in Rendell, 18 Pa.Cons.Stat. Sec. 5903(a)(1), prohibited, in relevant part, the "display [of material obscene as to minors under a three-prong test similar to O.C.G.A. Sec. 16-12-102] ... in any business or commercial establishment where minors ... are or probably will be exposed to view all or any part of such materials." See 332 Pa.Super. at 566, 481 A.2d at 934
The Colorado Supreme Court struck down a display ban with identical language as section 16-12-103(e) in Tattered Cover, Inc. v. Tooley, 696 P.2d 780 (Colo.1985) (construing Colo.Rev.Stat. Sec. 18-7-502(b)(5) (Supp.1984)). However, in Tattered Cover, Inc. the parties stipulated that there were only five ways to comply with the statute:
(1) prohibiting entry into the plaintiffs' stores of persons under the age of eighteen; (2) refusing to carry or display all sexually explicit material; (3) refusing to carry or display material proscribed by the Act; (4) restricting access to substantial portions of their material by segregating sections of their establishment with an "adults only" section; and (5) establishing an "adults only" section solely for material proscribed by the Act.
Id. at 783. The Colorado Supreme Court found the statute unconstitutional explicitly on the basis of the trial court's factual finding that the stipulated compliance strategies were not commercially feasible. The parties in this case, by contrast, have not stipulated that these are the only ways in which section 16-12-103(e) may be satisfied. We construe section 16-12-103(e) as affording several less burdensome compliance options.
We interpret "adults[-]only sections" to refer to aisles or open places in a store not physically separate from areas accessible to minors. As we understand their use of this phrase, appellants suggest that material "harmful to minors" could be displayed openly if the store had in place adequate signs and/or a surveillance policy insuring that the adults-only area and its contents were not accessible to minors. Such a "section" or "aisle" is distinct from a physically segregated room or area inaccessible to minors
Va.Code Ann. Sec. 18.2-391(a) (1989) makes it unlawful "to knowingly display [material deemed "harmful to minors"] in a manner whereby juveniles may examine or peruse [it]." (Emphasis added.) See American Booksellers Ass'n v. Virginia, 882 F.2d at 126-27. In answer to a question certified by the United States Supreme Court in an appeal of the Fourth Circuit's earlier decision that the statute was unconstitutional, see 484 U.S. 383, 108 S.Ct. 636, the Virginia Supreme Court found that the statute would be satisfied by a store policy of prohibiting the perusal of such material by minors whenever observed. Commonwealth v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 236 Va. 168, 372 S.E.2d 618 (1988)
As we stated in the text above, regardless of the method chosen to comply with the statute, minors must be denied the opportunity to peruse the material subject to section 16-12-103(e). The ban on "display" would be but a pyrrhic victory for the legislature and would not serve the purpose of protecting minors if they were allowed simply to reach over the blinder rack and remove the material for unfettered perusal. We need not specify the steps that must be taken to assure that the opportunity to browse is eliminated. Since any violation of section 16-12-103 must be done "knowingly," we are confident that a number of options are available that would eliminate the perusal by minors of material placed behind blinder racks without hindering adults' access to such material
We recognize that it is possible to read section 16-12-103(e) to require more than the use of blinder racks. It was suggested at oral argument that in order to satisfy section 16-12-103(e) in an establishment open to minors, material "harmful to minors" must be (1) placed behind or underneath the counter, or in some other area not visible to the general public but available to adults upon request; (2) sealed in plastic and/or fitted with an opaque cover, depending on whether its cover or contents, or both, were subject to the ban, see Sec. 16-12-103(e)(1) and (e)(2); or (3) placed in a physically separate room or area from that portion of the establishment open to minors. We make no determination as to whether these suggestions would satisfy the statute
Given the district court's factual finding that sales of reading material depend heavily on its "display" and availability for perusal by adults, and that requiring adults to request material kept underneath the counter can inhibit choice, these compliance strategies in general seem to impose more burden on adults' access to material protected as to them. We need not determine whether such burdens would be constitutionally permissible, however, since in a facial challenge the possibility that the Georgia courts could conceivably interpret section 16-12-103(e) more broadly than we do is insufficient to render it invalid. Virginia v. American Booksellers Ass'n, 484 U.S. at 397-99, 108 S.Ct. at 645;).
In Kucharek v. Hanaway, 714 F.Supp. 1499, 1517 (E.D.Wis.1989), a district court struck down Wisconsin's adult obscenity law on vagueness grounds but upheld a library exemption under the rational basis test. The court acknowledged in passing dicta that strict scrutiny might be appropriate for evaluating classifications involving material that is obscene for children but not adults. The Seventh Circuit recently reversed the vagueness holding and affirmed the library exemption without discussing this dicta. Kucharek v. Hanaway, 902 F.2d 513 (7th Cir.1990)
Although the M.S. News court referred to the exemption in that case as generally turning on the commercial/noncommercial distinction, the Wichita ordinance at issue did not refer explicitly to "commercial" use; instead, it provided an affirmative defense if the material or performance was "displayed, presented or disseminated to a minor at a recognized and established school, church, museum, medical clinic, hospital, public library, governmental agency, quasi-governmental agency and [if done] for a bona fide governmental, educational or scientific purpose." Code of the City of Wichita Sec. 5.68.156(3) (1979). See M.S. News, 721 F.2d at 1291
Appellees make much of the fact that section 16-12-104 does not turn specifically on whether the material is distributed, exhibited, or displayed commercially rather than noncommercially. Appellees' Brief at 44-45. See also Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1556 n. 20 (noting "that the legislature apparently rejected the commercial/noncommercial distinction in amending the Act"). Appellants respond that "[e]ven though the Georgia Act does not on its face exempt as many non-commercial distributions or displays as did the Wichita ordinance [in M.S. News], it is clear that the exempted conduct under the Georgia law is in fact non-commercial." Appellants' Brief at 55. Outside of "suspect classification" Equal Protection analysis, the specific facts upon which the legislature's classification turns do not shed light on the "fundamentalness" of the right affected by the classification; therefore those facts do not influence the level of scrutiny that a court must apply. Rather, the facts upon which the classification turns help explain both its legislative purpose and the likelihood that the classification will serve this purpose.
The application of the strict scrutiny standard in cases involving classifications drawn in laws regulating material that is not obscene as to either adults or minors does not conflict with our holding in this case. In a case relied upon by the Upper Midwest court, for example, Salem Inn, Inc. v. Frank, 522 F.2d 1045, 1049 (2d Cir.1975), the Second Circuit applied strict scrutiny to an ordinance prohibiting topless dancing in bars, restaurants and various other establishments, but allowing such dancing in opera houses, theaters and other places. See id. at 1046-47 (describing the classification). The Salem Inn court explicitly pointed out that its decision to apply strict scrutiny turned on the fact that on its face the ordinance reached displays "of the partially nude female form" that were not obscene as to even minors and thus constituted completely protected expression:
We reemphasize that the ordinance here is directed not at lewdness or obscenity but at nudity which, the [Supreme] Court has reminded us, is not per se 'obscene even as to minors.'
Id. at 1049 (citation omitted). See also Cruz v. Ferre, 571 F.Supp. 125, 134 (S.D.Fla.1983) (strict scrutiny applied to classification drawn between broadcast and cable television in regulation reaching indecent but not obscene material), aff'd, 755 F.2d 1415 (11th Cir.1985).The Ripplinger court agreed with the rational basis test approach in Casado, but placed Tattered Cover, Upper Midwest and Webb II within the category of cases including Salem Inn and Cruz, rather than Casado--although it acknowledged that "[n]either [Upper Midwest nor Webb II ] is written so narrowly." Ripplinger, 868 F.2d at 1050 n. 7. We do not agree that the Minneapolis ordinance and the Colorado and Georgia statutes dealt with regulations on " 'sexually explicit' material rather than 'obscenity' as defined in Miller v. California." Id. The regulations in all three cases regulated not merely "sexually explicit" material, but material that is at least obscene as to minors. See Upper Midwest, 780 F.2d at 1390-91; Webb II, 643 F.Supp. at 1549-50; Tattered Cover, Inc., 696 P.2d at 787.
The right to sell an admission ticket to a minor for a motion picture or other presentation that is obscene as to minors under section 16-12-102 is, for the purposes of this discussion, virtually the same as selling or loaning to minors material that is obscene as to them. Thus, the exemption to section 16-12-103(b) implicates the same equal protection analysis as the exemption to section 16-12-103(a), which is discussed in the text
The Seventh Circuit has suggested that library exemptions in obscenity statutes also serve the purpose of shielding libraries from groundless complaints that they are disseminating obscene materials. Kucharek v. Hanaway, 902 F.2d 513 (7th Cir.1990)
Appellees have not argued that the classification is itself "inherently suspect" and therefore deserving of strict scrutiny under another branch of Equal Protection analysis
The American Mini Theatres plurality upheld a zoning requirement that prohibited more than one adult theater within 1000 feet of any two other "regulated uses." See 427 U.S. at 53 n. 3, 96 S.Ct. at 2444 n. 3 (defining "regulated uses"). Only theaters licensed to present material "characterized by an emphasis on matter depicting, describing or relating to 'Specified Sexual Activities' ... (as defined [elsewhere in the zoning ordinance]" were subject to the "1000 feet rule." Id. at 53, 96 S.Ct. at 2444. Other theaters, like the libraries specified in section 16-12-104 of the Georgia statute, were unrestrained
The focus of classification between exempt and nonexempt entities must of course relate to a state's interest in protecting minors from the harmful effects of material that is obscene as to them. A state could not draw a classification affecting speech protected to one group but not another to serve an interest unrelated to protecting the group for which the expression is unprotected. For example, the state could not draw a classification on the right to somehow deal in such material in an effort to address the effect of such quasi-protected speech on neighborhoods, see American Mini Theatres, or some such other secondary effect of the speech unrelated to the state's interest in protecting the group for whom such material is unprotected--in this case, minors |
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May 17th, 2013 | by
Kelly was a nurse who had spent her career working with fragile, sick children in the NICU, and in pediatric home health. She was married to her husband of six years, and nearly done with a nurse practitioner degree. She hoped that once she finished her degree, they would start the process to build their family through adoption.
And then her husband came home one day and dropped the bomb. He was not in love with her anymore and wanted a divorce. He had met someone while traveling out of state, and wanted to enjoy the carefree bachelor days she had “robbed” from him when they met in their younger days. He then left to fly back out of state to resume the single lifestyle he had been craving.
To say she was devastated would be an understatement. She says, “Because I loved him so much it felt like my entire world had been thrown into a blender and I could see no way out.” She felt hopeless and suicidal. These feelings brought her to the hospital, but in lieu of admission, the psychiatrist allowed her to go home, as long as she was supervised 24/7 by friends or family, and as long as she attended the partial hospitalization program that met all day, five days a week. Surrounded by family and friends to support her, Kelly also was helped by the intensive therapy support in the program. She had sessions with the psychiatrist, individual counseling, group therapy, and occupational therapy to work on goal-setting and coping skills.
A caregiver her entire life, Kelly had a difficult time at first giving herself the nurturing that she had always lavished on sick children. Just as if she had a serious medical illness, Kelly had to take time off from work and school to focus on her emotional healing. Shortly after starting the program, and during a time when she still felt suicidal thoughts on a daily basis, she found an abandoned pit bull puppy while walking with a friend. She decided to rescue the abandoned puppy, and as it turns out that puppy rescued her instead. She gave her dog a middle name, Clarence, after the angel that saves George Bailey from suicide in “It’s A Wonderful Life.”
With the professional help, help from loved ones, and from her beloved dog, Kelly was slowly able to envision a new life for herself. With a lot of encouragement, she finished her last class to complete her degree. A year later, despite the fact that she is now divorced, she is happy again. She says, “More than 100 friends and family gave me encouragement to battle my demons and depression and decide to keep living one minute more. Minute by minute, it has now been over a year. I don’t live by minutes anymore.”
According to the CDC, almost 4% of the US population reports suicidal thoughts in the past year. Depression, and the suicidal thoughts that may accompany it, can happen to anyone. If you have suicidal thoughts, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, 911, or go to the nearest emergency department.
Article Tagsdepression • divorce • health care • help • mental health • nurse • nursing • suicide
‘Spring’ into Wellness
Mar 18th, 2013 | by
As soon as the weather warms up, people head outdoors. Whether it’s doing yard work, cleaning out the garage, taking a bike ride or walking the dog, there’s something about those first few days of spring that helps us all get moving, especially after the winter we’ve had this year. And there are quick and easy ways you can add activity to your daily routine.
Here are five tips to help you and your family ‘spring’ into wellness:
1. Buy a pedometer.
Wear it every day to count the number of steps you walk/run. Did you know it’s recommended that we take 10,000 steps per day? That’s a lot more than you realize. By wearing a pedometer, you may find that you have a little more motivation to take the stairs instead of the elevator or to park a little farther out at the grocery store than you normally would. Most pedometers are very affordable and range in price from $10 to $30 depending on the model and features.
2. Drink plenty of water.
How much water should you drink every day? Take your total weight and divide it by two. That’s the number of ounces you should be drinking per day. For example, if you are male that weighs 184 pounds, you should be drinking 92 ounces of water a day. That’s 11 1/2 eight ounces of water. Water makes up 60% of your body weight and is important for your body to function – flush toxins out of organs, carry nutrients to your cells and provide a moist environment for ear, nose and throat tissues. Doctors recommend that an average, healthy adult drink at least 8 – 9 cups (8 oz) of water each day. If you’re concerned about your fluid intake, check with your doctor.
3. Make time for fun and relaxation.
We all live very busy lives. Trying to balance work, raising kids, volunteering, paying bills, attending events and doctor appointments can certainly be challenging. However, if you regularly make time to have fun and relax, you’ll be in a better place to handle stress.
- Set aside relaxation time. This is your time to take a break from all responsibilities and recharge your batteries.
- Connect with others. Spend time with positive people who enhance your life.
- Do something you enjoy every day. Make time for activities that make you happy – taking photographs, playing an instrument, or working out.
- Keep your sense of humor. This includes the ability to laugh at yourself. Laughing helps your body fight stress in a number of ways.
4. Get more sleep.
Lack of sleep means your body is working extra hard to do its everyday jobs. If you feel like you need to consume extra sugars and caffeinated drinks to make it through your day, you may not be getting enough sleep. Getting seven to eight hours of sleep every night is best for a healthy, active lifestyle.
5. Visit your doctor regularly.
Most people only go to the doctor when something is wrong, but it’s very important to see your doctor at least once a year, whether you’re sick or not. Preventive care can help detect warning signs of heart disease, cancer and stroke – three of the biggest threats to your health.
Resources: Mayo Clinic, Humana, WebMD
Article Tagsactive • activity • CareSource • exercise • family • get moving • health and wellness • sleep • spring • stress • tips • water • wellness
Employees Step Up to Help Ohio Kids
Dec 31st, 2012 | by
As part of our annual employee Holiday Giving Tree, we recently coordinated the donation of more than 1,000 shoes and socks to three Ohio non-profits – Shoes 4 the Shoeless in Dayton, YWCA Emergency Shelter in Columbus and Shoes and Clothes for Kids in Cleveland.
According to our Foundation Director, Cathy Ponitz, “Our employees are some of the most giving individuals I have ever seen. Whenever we identify a need, they always step up to help. This is an amazing accomplishment—especially at such a busy time of year.”
A majority of low-income and homeless children in Ohio do not have shoes that properly fit. Many are well-worn and provide insufficient protection from the weather.
Kris Horlacher, Executive Director of Shoes 4 the Shoeless explains, “Most people have no idea that this need even exists. In fact, they are shocked. Not only do we constantly see kids that don’t have the proper shoes to protect them from the weather, but we also see the unnecessary physical and emotional distress that is brought on from wearing socks and shoes that don’t fit or are not fit to wear. Our goal is simple, to provide new gym shoes and socks to children in desperate need. Organizations like CareSource help us do just that.”
Since 2010, approximately 11,000 Dayton area children have received new gym shoes and socks from Shoes 4 the Shoeless.
Earlier this year Shoes 4 the Shoeless was the recipient of a $10,000 grant through the CareSource Foundation’s People’s Choice Grants program. Each quarter, the Foundation contributes $10,000 to one nonprofit organization that is nominated and voted on by CareSource employees.
Thank you to all of our employees for helping such a worthy cause and making a difference every day. Have a blessed 2013.
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What’s In Your Lunch Box?
Nov 12th, 2012 | by
With all the hubbub on the Internet lately about Honey Boo Boo and her rather interesting diet (Mountain Dew for a young child?), it begs the question- what should children be eating throughout the day?
Children’s nutritional needs will change as they grow, but it is always important to emphasize fresh, whole foods no matter what the age. You can go to the American Heart Association’s website to learn exactly what your child should be eating, depending on age and whether they are a girl or a boy.
How do you know if your child is at a healthy weight? Try one of these calculators to find where they land on the growth charts. You can bring the results to your child’s pediatrician if you have concerns.
What exactly does a day’s worth of meals look like for a preschooler?
Half a cup with whole grain cereal with milk and a piece of fruit.
Whole grain bread with meat, cheese, or nut butter, fresh veggies, yogurt with fruit, a piece of fresh fruit, and optional treat. Children do not need sweet treats every day.
Sorry Honey Boo Boo, but water or low-fat milk is the preferred beverage. It is better to eat fresh fruits rather than juices. If your children do not like plain water, try putting a slice of fruit or homemade flavored ice cubes in their water.
Fruit is a perfect snack. So are fresh veggies, for that matter!
Dinner is a palm-sized amount of meat or beans, a one-half to one cup serving of vegetables, and a couple ounces of whole grains. (Pictured above, turkey breast roasted in apple cider and stuffing made of wheat bread and apples.)
If you need more ideas for meal plans, you can go to Choose My Plate. For snack ideas, try 100 Days of Real Food. Don’t forget, fresh foods don’t necessarily mean lots of preparation time! Apples and bananas are nature’s original convenience foods.
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Thriller
Nov 2nd, 2012 | by
Every quarter, we hold All Staff meetings to provide news and updates to our employees. Our most recent meeting was one to remember. To kick it off - in the spirit of Halloween - 20 of our employees volunteered to do the Thriller dance to open the meeting. Our internal communications team held weekly rehearsals to get them ready, but they had to keep it a secret until October 31. It was a huge undertaking.
The crowd cheered with suprise as they entered the stage. People are still talking about it and now want to do a “jig” at every All Staff. CareSource is certainly a great place to work.
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Busy Families: Have a Plan
Sep 11th, 2012 | by
By Jennifer Dozer - busy wife, mother and RN
The start of the school year often means the start of school-year stress for busy families. To families already overwhelmed with the usual chaos that comes from one or both parents working, adding homework, sports practices, and other activities into the mix can cause unwanted stress.
The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that families establish a daily routine. Having a routine helps children feel safe, teaches self-discipline, and helps parents avoid the stress of rushed mornings and forgotten homework.
The internet is a treasure-trove of ideas for the organizationally-challenged. Popular blogs and social networking sites such as Pinterest are full of tips both for establishing personal routines that suit your family, and plotting out ways to organize your home.
Not sure where to get started? Here are a few tips:
- Establish a Command Center. A command center is a single place in your home- in your kitchen, office, or
entryway- that meets your daily organizational needs. What should you keep in your command center? Homework folders, bills that need mailing, keys, phones, chore charts, calendars, and menu plans are typical command center must-haves. Papers that otherwise would get piled on tables should have a home here. There should be only one answer to the questions “Where is it?”, “When is it?”, “What am I supposed to do?”, and “What’s for dinner?” Go to the Command Center.
- Make a Meal Plan. Having a plan ahead of time can help you avoid last-minute fast food runs and wasted time scrambling to figure out dinner. It can also help you save money! If you find you don’t have much time for cooking on weeknights, consider spending a few hours on the weekend creating freezer meals, or becoming adept at using a slow cooker.
- Keep a Family Calendar. Google makes it easy to keep a paper-free shared calendar online, and will automatically send a reminder email to your Gmail account. Setting up an account is free. If you have a smartphone, you can download the Gmail app, and get reminders directly to your phone! If you prefer to keep a calendar in your command center, you can often download and print free calendar pages for a family binder, or use a simple chalkboard or dry erase board.
- Be Prepared. If you need something the next day, be sure to prepare it the night before. Make sure homework is done, papers have been signed, and lunches and book bags are packed. Need some healthy school lunch ideas? Try here.
- Build Your Family Routine. Sit down and spend a few minutes thinking about what your family needs to accomplish before and after school, then devise a routine to help make it happen. Help your children gain some independence by delegating age appropriate tasks to them. You can post your family’s routines and chore charts in your command center or keep track of completed tasks in a family binder.
Follow CareSource on Pinterest to check out our boards. We’ve pinned plenty of tips to help get you started on a smooth transition to the school year.
Helpful Pins
Command Centers:
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Meal Planning:
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Family Calendar/Binder:
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Chore Charts:
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Family Routines:
Everyone Has a Story
Aug 29th, 2012 | by
By Elizabeth Stevens and Daniell Ross, CareSource Interns
This summer during our internship, CareSource University hosted the Poverty Simulation to help employees better understand the realities of poverty. Here are a few testimonials from the interns who were able to catch a glimpse of the challenges and heartbreak that some of our members experience daily.
Elizabeth:
“The most frustrating part of the simulation was adjusting to a new role. Before the simulation started, I was a 21 year old college senior with zero debt and a roadmap for my future success. Suddenly, I had to assume an entirely different identity. My character was a 30 year old father/husband with a 10 year son and a baby on the way. I didn’t have a car and couldn’t afford a bus pass, so I had to walk everywhere. I spent a lot of time at work and a lot of time figuring out which resources I needed and how to obtain them. Weeks flew by, and my family’s finances didn’t improve at all. In fact, by the end, we still owed hundreds of dollars in loans and were unable to buy enough food to feed our child.”
Daniell:
“The most eye opening part of the simulation was the aspect of looking at something from the inside versus the outside. From the outside my character was stealing money, not going to school, and leaving my little brother home alone. Because of the stereotypes society has built, many people probably thought I was stealing the money to go buy drugs, that I was a dead beat, and that I was irresponsible with my little brother. However, from the inside my family was stretched thin on money and every cent I stole went to help my mom with her health care and other bills. I didn’t go to school but I would drop my little brother off and go try and find a job. And I left my brother home alone because it was safer for him to be locked home working on his school work then outside where something could happen to him. I’ve learned you can’t be quick to judge, and you really need to have compassion. You never know what someone else is going through – everyone has a story.”
Lauren:
“I volunteered as a grocery store owner. Throughout the simulation I struggled with my role because I wanted to help people any way I could. I found myself overpaying employees and donating extra money and groceries to families. However, about half way through the simulation I became frustrated because of how poorly customers were treating me. I found it very difficult to stay positive, and it was evident in the quality of my customer service. I learned that with a little bit of empathy and a smile, you can make a positive impact.”
CareSource, in collaboration with Think Tank Inc., offers “A Poverty Simulation,” to help employees and community leaders better understand the realities of poverty that our more than 900,000 members face daily. For more information, contact Karin VanZandt, CEO at Think Tank.
Article TagsCareSource • challenge • heartbreak • money • poverty • simulation • stereotype • story
So Many Questions
Aug 13th, 2012 | by
By Jennifer Dozer, RN, Patient Care Coordinator, Behavioral Health
With all the recent news stories about shootings and speculations about whether the alleged gunmen were psychiatrically ill, I’ve had quite a few people say to me, “I’m sure you’re glad you don’t work that job doing home visits anymore – somebody might try to kill you!”
After a few years in group homes and a few years doing home visits with folks who have behavioral health issues, I can honestly say I feared no two things more than bedbugs and drug dealers. Well, maybe lice- my hair used to be down to my waist, after all.
Now, I won’t speculate on whether or not I think an alleged gunman had a psychotic disorder. If I gathered all the tiny bits of information from the news- absent the actual acts – and tried to determine if any of the men met hospital admission criteria right before the events happened, I’d have to stamp that file “insufficient information” and go calling around trying to find more. No judgments will be made here.
What the general public is asking itself now is this:
Aren’t people with psychiatric illness threats?
That’s an easy question to answer. Most violent crimes are not committed by people with a serious mental health diagnosis. Just like in the general population, having an addiction – cocaine, methamphetamines, or the new bath salts – as well as a serious mental health condition is more associated with violence than a mental health diagnosis by itself.
Those of us who have worked in the trenches generally have an interesting story or two about something that happened when a family member or patient became very ill, as we are in frequent contact with the most seriously ill in our communities. The only time I felt my life was in danger, however, was when a drug dealer in a neighborhood broke in through a window while I was visiting a client, threatening both of us. It was another client, the lady next door who had schizophrenia, who called 911 to summon the police. We both made it out alive and unhurt.
There are a few circumstances when hospitalization is necessary because symptoms are severe enough to override judgment and safety.
How could you tell if someone’s behavior actually requires intervention? Here’s a brief checklist:
- First and foremost, are they actually threatening harm to themselves or others? Always take such statements seriously. Don’t be afraid to call the police, who can take them to the hospital to be evaluated. In Ohio, a psychiatrist can put a 72-hour hold on someone suspected to be a danger to themselves or others. Let the professionals decide whether a threat is real or not.
- Keep an eye out for friends and family, especially if you already know they struggle with an illness. If they withdraw suddenly, or have another change from normal behavior, check on them.
- Are they afraid, or thinking someone is out to get them or poisoning their food? Are they becoming aggressive towards other because of this fear?
- Have their hallucinations gone beyond just being present, to actually commanding them to harm themselves or others?
The most important thing to remember, is that your neighbor, or cousin, or brother is most likely not a threat to you, but instead needs your support. Stigmatizing people with mental health issues as violent only makes them less likely to seek treatment.
Article Tags
You’re Good, If….
Jun 27th, 2012 | by
By Jennifer Dozer, Behavioral Health
The other week I caught myself bragging, “I’ve spent 48 hours of my life in labor, but didn’t feel I needed any pain medications.” Of course, both births ended up with c-sections, but there was no brag that I didn’t need any medication after those surgeries. Pass the pain medication please!
There is a common sentiment that one is better or stronger for not taking any medications. We value independence and autonomy. Needing help of any kind, even to ease severe pain, is not something we like to admit. There is a stigma attached to this. With neurobiological disorders such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, this is especially true.
When I was in 5th grade, we spent one semester in gym class trying to climb a huge rope that hung from the ceiling. Touching the ceiling meant you got an “A”, making it three-quarters of the way up got you a “B”, making it half-way got you a “C”, and wrapping your arms and legs around the rope and hanging on for dear life for 30 seconds meant you squeaked by with a “D”. Touching the mat before that 30 seconds was up was instant failure.
Being the puny bookish type that preferred frequenting Star Trek conventions, I did not have a prayer of ever reaching the top of that rope. What fifth-grader lifts weights, after all? My natural abilities earned me a “D”, and just barely.
If I had had help, say, a small cherry-picker, a ladder, or a human pyramid of cheerleaders, I could have reached the top. I probably could have somewhat improved my natural abilities through weight-lifting and practice, but doubt I could ever reach the top without a major intervention.
If it’s unfair to do this to kids, why do we do this as adults? Don’t we all deserve an “A” in Life?
This is why I felt so bad, once I noticed I was starting to brag about not needing pain relief. For all I knew, the person I was talking to could have secretly had a health condition that required lifelong daily medication to control. Maybe they were undergoing cancer treatment and needed nausea medications to live through the side effects of treatment. Was I inadvertently reinforcing the stigma of needing medication and, in essence, shaming them for something they could not control?
The really absurd thing, though, is that I have chronic autoimmune disease that requires daily medication to be the best wife/mother/employee that I can be, unencumbered by excessive pain.
I really ought to have known better than to utter such words. As a behavioral health nurse, I have spent a lot of time working against the stigma of taking daily medications. Our thoughts, our emotions, and our relationships with others are right at the core of our beings. It can be deeply uncomfortable to admit to anyone we need a hand up to reach our fullest potential.
Stigmatizing thoughts almost always begin with “You are good, if…” Isn’t it time, then, that we stop bragging about how strong we are if we do without, and start bragging about how strong we are, period. No qualifiers needed. |
Astronomy
Astronomy is a natural science that deals with the study of celestial objects (such as moons, planets, stars, nebulae, and galaxies); the physics, chemistry, mathematics, and evolution of such objects; and phenomena that originate outside the atmosphere of Earth (such as supernovae explosions, gamma ray bursts, and cosmic background radiation). A related but distinct subject, cosmology, is concerned with studying the universe as a whole. human affairs are correlated with the positions of celestial objects. Although the two fields share a common origin they are now entirely distinct.[3]
Lexicology []
The word astronomy (from the Greek words astron (ἄστρον), "star" and -nomy from nomos (νόμος), "law" or "culture") literally means "law of the stars" (or "culture of the stars" depending on the translation).
Use of terms "astronomy" and "astrophysics" [].
History [] calculated the size of the Earth, and measured.[15] Hipparchus also created a comprehensive catalog of 1020 stars, and most of the constellations of the northern hemisphere derive from Greek astronomy.[16].[17].[18][19][20] In 964, the Andromeda Galaxy, the largest galaxy in the Local Group, containing the Milky Way, was discovered by the Persian astronomer Azophi and first described in his Book of Fixed Stars..[22][23] It is also believed that the ruins at Great Zimbabwe and Timbuktu[24] may have housed an astronomical observatory.[25] Europeans had previously believed that there had been no astronomical observation in pre-colonial Middle Ages sub-Saharan Africa but modern discoveries show otherwise.[26][27][28][29].[30]
Kepler was the first to devise a system that described correctly the details of the motion of the planets with the Sun at the center. However, Kepler did not succeed in formulating a theory behind the laws he wrote down.[31] It was left to Newton's invention of celestial dynamics and his law of gravitation to finally explain the motions of the planets. Newton also developed the reflecting telescope.[30].[32] The distance to a star was first announced in 1838 when the parallax of 61 Cygni was measured by Friedrich Bessel.[33].[34].[22]
The existence of the Earth's galaxy, the Milky Way, as a separate group of stars, was only proved in the 20th century, along with the existence of "external" galaxies, and soon after, the expansion of the Universe, seen in the recession of most galaxies from us.[35] []
In astronomy, the main source of information about celestial bodies and other objects is the visible light or more generally electromagnetic radiation.[36] []
Radio astronomy studies radiation with wavelengths greater than approximately one millimeter..[37]
Although some radio waves are produced by astronomical objects in the form of thermal emission, most of the radio emission that is observed from Earth is seen in the form of synchrotron radiation, which is produced when electrons oscillate around magnetic fields.[37] Additionally, a number of spectral lines produced by interstellar gas, notably the hydrogen spectral line at 21 cm, are observable at radio wavelengths.[9][37]
A wide variety of objects are observable at radio wavelengths, including supernovae, interstellar gas, pulsars, and active galactic nuclei.[9][37]
Infrared astronomy [].[38] Some molecules radiate strongly in the infrared. This can be used to study chemistry in space; more specifically it can detect water in comets.[39]
Optical astronomy []
Historically, optical astronomy, also called visible light astronomy, is the oldest form of astronomy.[40]),[40] the same equipment used at these wavelengths is also used to observe some near-ultraviolet and near-infrared radiation.
Ultraviolet astronomy []
Ultraviolet astronomy is generally used to refer to observations at ultraviolet wavelengths between approximately 100 and 3200 Å (10 to 320 nm).[37].[37] However, as ultraviolet light is easily absorbed by interstellar dust, an appropriate adjustment of ultraviolet measurements is necessary.[37]
X-ray astronomy [].[37] Since X-rays are absorbed by the Earth's atmosphere, all X-ray observations must be performed from high-altitude balloons, rockets, or spacecraft. Notable X-ray sources include X-ray binaries, pulsars, supernova remnants, elliptical galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and active galactic nuclei.[37] []
Gamma ray astronomy is the study of astronomical objects at the shortest wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. Gamma rays may be observed directly by satellites such as the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory or by specialized telescopes called atmospheric Cherenkov telescopes.[37] The Cherenkov telescopes do not actually detect the gamma rays directly but instead detect the flashes of visible light produced when gamma rays are absorbed by the Earth's atmosphere.[41].[37]
Fields not based on the electromagnetic spectrum [] primarily from the Sun but also from supernovae.[37] Cosmic rays, which consist of very high energy particles that can decay or be absorbed when they enter the Earth's atmosphere, result in a cascade of particles which can be detected by current observatories.[42] Additionally, some future neutrino detectors may also be sensitive to the particles produced when cosmic rays hit the Earth's atmosphere.[37].[43].
Gamma rays or Gamma ray bursts can be or have been detected coming from pulsars.
Astrometry and celestial mechanics [].[44].[45]
During the 1990s, the astrometric technique of measuring the stellar wobble was used to detect large extrasolar planets orbiting nearby stars.[46]
Theoretical astronomy []
Theoretical.[47][48],[49] as their discovery and controversy originated during the study of the galaxies.
Specific subfields []
Solar astronomy []
.[50]
The Sun has steadily increased in luminosity over the course of its life, increasing by 40% since it first became a main-sequence star. The Sun has also undergone periodic changes in luminosity that can have a significant impact on the Earth.[51] The Maunder minimum, for example, is believed to have caused the Little Ice Age phenomenon during the Middle Ages.[52].[50].[53].[54]
The Solar System is subdivided into the inner planets, the asteroid belt, and the outer planets. The inner terrestrial planets consist of Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. The outer gas giant planets are Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.[55].[56]..[58]
Stellar astronomy []
The study of stars and stellar evolution is fundamental to our understanding of the universe. The astrophysics of stars has been determined through observation and theoretical understanding; and from computer simulations of the interior.[59].[60]
Almost all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium were created inside the cores of stars.[59].[61]
The final fate of the star depends on its mass, with stars of mass greater than about eight times the Sun becoming core collapse supernovae;[62] while smaller stars form planetary nebulae, and evolve into white dwarfs.[63] The remnant of a supernova is a dense neutron star, or, if the stellar mass was at least three times that of the Sun, a black hole.[64] Close binary stars can follow more complex evolutionary paths, such as mass transfer onto a white dwarf companion that can potentially cause a supernova.[65] Planetary nebulae and supernovae are necessary for the distribution of metals to the interstellar medium; without them, all new stars (and their planetary systems) would be formed from hydrogen and helium alone.[66]..[60].[68]
Kinematic studies of matter in the Milky Way and other galaxies have demonstrated that there is more mass than can be accounted for by visible matter. A dark matter halo appears to dominate the mass, although the nature of this dark matter remains undetermined.[69]
Extragalactic astronomy []
>>IMAGE.[70].[71]
The large-scale structure of the cosmos is represented by groups and clusters of galaxies. This structure is organized in a hierarchy of groupings, with the largest being the superclusters. The collective matter is formed into filaments and walls, leaving large voids in between.[72][73] to its present condition.[74] The concept of the big bang can be traced back to the discovery of the microwave background radiation in 1965.[74]
In the course of this expansion, the universe underwent several evolutionary stages. In the very early moments, it is theorized that the universe experienced a very rapid cosmic inflation, which homogenized the starting conditions. Thereafter, nucleosynthesis produced the elemental abundance of the early universe.[74] .[75]..[77]
Fundamental to the structure of the universe is the existence of dark matter and dark energy. These are now thought to be its dominant components, forming 96% of the mass of the universe. For this reason, much effort is expended in trying to understand the physics of these components.[78].[79].[80]).[82].[84][85][86]?[87] A deeper understanding of the formation of stars and planets is needed.
- Is there other life in the Universe? Especially, is there other intelligent life? If so, what is the explanation for the Fermi paradox? The existence of life elsewhere has important scientific and philosophical implications.[88][89] Is the Solar System normal or atypical?
- What caused the Universe to form? Is the premise of the Fine-tuned universe hypothesis correct? If so, could this be the result of cosmological natural selection? What caused the cosmic inflation that produced our homogeneous universe? Why is there a baryon asymmetry?
- What is the nature of dark matter and dark energy? These dominate the evolution and fate of the cosmos, yet their true nature remains unknown.[90] What will be the ultimate fate of the universe?[91]
- How did the first galaxies form? How did supermassive black holes form?
- What is creating the ultra-high-energy cosmic rays?
See also []
References []
- ^ Unsöld; Baschek (2001). "Introduction". p. 1.
- ^ Unsöld; Baschek (2001). "I. Classical Astronomy and the Solar System". pp. 6–9.
- ^ Unsöld, Albrecht; Baschek, Bodo; Brewer, W.D. (translator) (2001). The New Cosmos: An Introduction to Astronomy and Astrophysics. Berlin, New York: Springer. ISBN 3-540-67877-8 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ a b Scharringhausen, B. "Curious About Astronomy: What is the difference between astronomy and astrophysics?". Archived from the original on 9 June 2007. Retrieved 20 June 2007.
- ^ a b Odenwald, S. "Archive of Astronomy Questions and Answers: What is the difference between astronomy and astrophysics?". Archived from the original on 8 July 2007. Retrieved 20 June 2007.
- ^ a b "Penn State Erie-School of Science-Astronomy and Astrophysics". Archived from the original on 21 September 2012.. (1982). The Physical Universe. Mill Valley, California: University Science Books. ISBN 0-935702-05-9 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Forbes, 1909
- ^ DeWitt, Richard (2010). "The Ptolemaic System". Worldviews: An Introduction to the History and Philosophy of Science. Chichester, England: Wiley. p. 113. ISBN 1-4051-9563-0 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^. Brill's New Pauly.
- ^ [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK]. "The Scientific Institutions in the Medieval Near East". pp. 992–3., in (Rashed & Morelon 1996, pp. 985–1007)
- ^ Nas, Peter J (1993). Urban Symbolism. Brill Academic Publishers. p. 350. ISBN 90-04-09855-0 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Kepple, George Robert; Glen W. Sanner (1998). The Night Sky Observer's Guide, Volume 1. Willmann-Bell, Inc. p. 18. ISBN 0-943396-58-1 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ a b Berry, Arthur (1961). A Short History of Astronomy From Earliest Times Through the Nineteenth Century. New York: Dover Publications, Inc. ISBN 0-486-20210-0 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Hoskin, Michael, ed. (1999). The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-57600-8 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ McKissack, Pat; McKissack, Frederick (1995). The royal kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: life in medieval Africa. H. Holt. ISBN 978-0-8050-4259-7 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Clark, Stuart; Carrington, Damian (2002). "Eclipse brings claim of medieval African observatory". New Scientist. Archived from the original on 11 September 2012. Retrieved 3 February 2010.
- ^ "Cosmic Africa explores Africa's astronomy". Science in Africa. Archived from the original on 21 September 2012. Retrieved 3 February 2002.
- ^ Holbrook, Jarita C.; Medupe, R. Thebe; Urama, Johnson O. (2008). African Cultural Astronomy. Springer. ISBN 978-1-4020-6638-2 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ "Africans studied astronomy in medieval times". The Royal Society. 30 January 2006. Archived from the original on 9 June 2008. Retrieved 3 February 2010.
- ^ Stenger, Richard "Star sheds light on African 'Stonehenge'". Archived from the original on 12 July 2012.. CNN. 5 December 2002. Retrieved on 30 December 2011.
- ^ a b Forbes, 1909, pp. 58–64
- ^ Forbes, 1909, pp. 49–58
- ^ [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ "Electromagnetic Spectrum". NASA. Archived from the original on 5 September 2006. Retrieved 8 September 2006.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n Cox, A. N., ed. (2000). Allen's Astrophysical Quantities. New York: Springer-Verlag. p. 124. ISBN 0-387-98746-0 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Staff (11 September 2003). "Why infrared astronomy is a hot topic". ESA. Archived from the original on 30 July 2012. Retrieved 11 August 2008.
- ^ "Infrared Spectroscopy – An Overview". NASA/IPAC. Archived from the original on 5 August 2012. Retrieved 11 August 2008.
- ^ a b Moore, P. (1997). Philip's Atlas of the Universe. Great Britain: George Philis Limited. ISBN 0-540-07465-9 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Penston, Margaret J. (14 August 2002). "The electromagnetic spectrum". Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council. Archived from the original on 8 September 2012. Retrieved 17 August 2006.
- ^ Gaisser, Thomas K. (1990). Cosmic Rays and Particle Physics. Cambridge University Press. pp. 1–2. ISBN 0-521-33931-6 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Tammann, G. A.; Thielemann, F. K.; Trautmann, D. (2003). "Opening new windows in observing the Universe". Europhysics News. Archived from the original on 6 September 2012. Retrieved 3 February 2010.
- ^ 10 August 2006.
- ^ [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ "Dark matter". NASA. 2010. Archived from the original on 30 October 2009. Retrieved 2 November 2009. "third paragraph, "There is currently much ongoing research by scientists attempting to discover exactly what this dark matter is""
- ^ 11 September 2006.
- ^ Pogge, Richard W. (1997). "The Once & Future Sun" (lecture notes). New Vistas in Astronomy. Archived from the original on 24 May 2012. 23 August 2006.
- ^ (Spinger) 98 (1–4): 39–95. Bibcode:2006EM&P...98...39M. doi:10.1007/s11038-006-9087-5.
- ^ Montmerle, 2006, pp. 87–90
- ^ Beatty, J.K.; Petersen, C.C.; Chaikin, A., ed. (1999). The New Solar System. Cambridge press. p. 70edition = 4th. ISBN 0-521-64587-5 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ a b Harpaz, 1994, pp. 7–18
- ^ a b Smith, Michael David (2004). "Cloud formation, Evolution and Destruction". The Origin of Stars. Imperial College Press. pp. 53–86. ISBN 1-86094-501-5 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Harpaz, 1994
- ^ Harpaz, 1994, pp. 173–178
- ^ Harpaz, 1994, pp. 111–118
- ^ Audouze, Jean; Israel, Guy, ed. (1994). The Cambridge Atlas of Astronomy (3rd ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-43438-6 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Harpaz, 1994, pp. 189–210
- ^ Harpaz, 1994, pp. 245–256
- ^ Ott, Thomas (24 August 2006). "The Galactic Centre". Max-Planck-Institut für extraterrestrische Physik. Archived from the original on 4 September 2006. Retrieved 8 September 2006.
- ^ Smith, Michael David (2004). "Massive stars". The Origin of Stars. Imperial College Press. pp. 185–199. ISBN 1-86094-501-5 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Van den Bergh, Sidney (1999). "The Early History of Dark Matter". Publications of the 8 September 2006.
- ^ Zeilik, Michael (2002). Astronomy: The Evolving Universe (8th ed.). Wiley. ISBN 0-521-80090-0 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ "Cosmic Detectives". The European Space Agency (ESA). 2013-04-02. Retrieved 2013-04-15.
- ^ a b c Dodelson, Scott (2003). Modern cosmology. Academic Press. pp. 1–22. ISBN 978-0-12-219141-1 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
- ^ Hinshaw, Gary (13 July 2006). "Cosmology 101: The Study of the Universe". NASA WMAP. Archived from the original on 13 August 2006. Retrieved 10 August 2006.
- ^ Dodelson, 2003, pp. 216–261
- ^ Americal. Archived from the original on 28 June 2011. Retrieved 12 August 2006.
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- Forbes, George (1909). History of Astronomy. London: Plain Label Books. ISBN 1-60303-159-6 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK]. Available at Project Gutenberg,Google books
- Harpaz, Amos (1994). Stellar Evolution. A K Peters, Ltd. ISBN 978-1-56881-012-6 [Amazon-US | Amazon-UK].
External links []
- Universe Tomorrow Hubble Space Telescope news releases and images
- International Year of Astronomy 2009 IYA2009 Main website
- Cosmic Journey: A History of Scientific Cosmology from the American Institute of Physics
- Southern Hemisphere Astronomy
- Celestia Motherlode Educational site for Astronomical journeys through space
- Astronomy – A History – G. Forbes – 1909 (eLibrary Project – eLib Text)
- Prof. Sir Harry Kroto, NL, Astrophysical Chemistry Lecture Series. 8 Freeview Lectures provided by the Vega Science Trust.
- Core books and core journals in Astronomy, from the Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System |
The Case for SWAT Teams
Few LEOs have in their ranks officers with the experience and knowledge necessary to properly train a SWAT team, which includes not only the function of the entire team, but the specialized individual skills necessary for each operator. This means that outside instructors must either be brought in, often, to instruct the team, or that the entire team must be sent to facilities where instruction can be obtained. In either case, this is a very expensive proposition — again, not only for the high dollar costs involved, but the time that officers will be away from their duties. There are some federal agencies who offer such training on-site at low or no cost, but even without a large cash outlay, substantial other costs are involved, and such trainers cannot return over and over again as often as necessary to ensure proper continuing proficiency.
One of the largest expenses is ammunition. A thousand rounds of .223 rifle ammunition commonly costs, even with police discount pricing, $300 or more, and handgun ammunition is only slightly less expensive. Match quality rifle ammunition for marksmen is amazingly expensive. The problem is that a properly trained and maintained SWAT team can — and should — go through far more ammunition than the rest of the LEO combined. A 100 man LEO might shoot 5,000 rounds a year in qualifying its officers. A 20 man SWAT team can easily shoot that much in a single day of training if for no other reason than that their minimum qualification standards must be much higher and more exacting than those required of a regular police force.
Why is all of this necessary? Because SWAT teams, if properly chosen and trained, are expected to be smarter, faster, stronger, and much more capable of exercising rapid and correct judgment under pressure than the average officer. They don’t exist to routinely produce overwhelming volumes of fire. They do not expect — or hope — to shoot someone whenever they are called out. In fact, real professionals consider having to shoot a failure. They know that sometimes they will have no choice. When they do have to use deadly force, they are expected to use it only when absolutely necessary, and with cool precision, absolute accuracy, and immediate effect. In a situation where an average officer might have no option but to shoot, a SWAT operator is expected to be able to take the extra fractions of a second necessary to consider other options before shooting. They are expected, through experience, planning, and superior execution, to turn every situation to their tactical advantage to absolutely minimize the danger to the public in any situation. Again, this is not always possible, but a properly trained SWAT team will experience far fewer such situations than an under-trained team, or a patrol force. The best and most dangerous — to the bad guys — SWAT weapon is always the flexible brains of the operators.
And therein is another significant problem. SWAT teams are prestige builders for a LEO, not only for the administrators, but for officers. In police work, the only way to significantly increase one’s income and prestige is to gain rank, to more and more move away from actual police work into supervision and administration.
There are several alternate routes to prestige and somewhat greater pay, such as becoming a detective, but SWAT assignment is an enormous and shiny prestige badge — even if there is no additional stipend, which is the case in many agencies. Well-meaning administrators, looking for ways to build and maintain morale, might consider establishing a SWAT team, often without truly considering the real costs. And once a team is established, properly trained or not, there is enormous institutional and political pressure to keep it and use it. Politicians who are funding a team may demand to know why it’s not being used more often without really understanding why such a team exists and under what circumstances it should be used.
One way to better manage costs is to establish multi-LEO teams, taking officers from each LEO. In the Guerena shooting, the team was apparently comprised of officers from four separate LEOs. This can reduce the overall costs to each agency, but usually causes many other problems. Who will command the team? Who will have the most prestigious assignments? Who will get the best equipment? How will the schedules of multiple LEOs be reconciled for training? Whose use of force policies and procedures will prevail? How will costs be split when lawsuits are filed? How will officers be chosen for the team? Who is responsible for discipline? These and many more issues can prevent a team from functioning properly and can even tear it apart.
So long as SWAT teams can break into people’s homes and kill them based on suspicions, we no longer live in a free country.
Which is an excellent argument against the issue of “no knock” warrants. Without them SWATs doing as you describe are in deep doo doo.
Five years ago my next door neighbors had a meth lab and a small number of customers. My neighbors and I continually called the police about it but nothing was done. The neighbors went broke – drugs aren’t THAT profitable – and sold the house to a young professional couple.
About a year later I was leaving my house at night to pick up my son at his Cub Scout meeting when I heard an “Excuse me!” A figure all in black was approaching me. I was momentarily concerned but I then saw her badge via the streetlight. I looked up at the neighbor’s house and saw other figures in black around the house. Didn’t see any AR-15s.
I was asked about the drug dealers, in a way that told me the police still thought they were living there. I started laughing, but was polite enough to stop and not tell the officer why. I explained that the dealers were no longer there. I was asked if I knew where they moved and I said no, but the new owners might.
It was obvious that the officer’s caution and my chance exit from my house likely saved an innocent family (they had a baby by then) from being victimized by a no-knock police entry.
Another reason why these entries need to stop.
First they came for the suspected drug users, and I did nothing because I am not a drug user. Then they came for the student loan defaulters, and I was current on my student loans, so I did nothing. Then . . .
Good article. You’ve answered at least the first question to pop into my head whenever I read about a SWAT raid gone wrong: “What was SWAT doing there in the first place?” LEOs seem to use tactical teams for everything now. The reasons you provide make sense.
One thing I’m not sure about, though. Most of the phoney-baloney excuses these officers and department give for busting down doors, terrorizing innocent people, and shooting dogs seem to be along the lines of “We didn’t know what to expect” or “We were afraid for our safety.” Regarding the first excuse, I thought police were supposed investigate suspects BEFORE attempting to arrest them. One would think that experienced detectives could “detect” whether a suspects is likely to be armed and/or violent.
Regarding the second excuse – are police really so afraid and risk-averse that they feel the need to “go in heavy” in every situation, just in case? “You never know what you’ll run into” is a poor justification. And if they’re really that concerned about what they’ll run into, see previous paragraph.
Is it really that dangerous out there? Are cops really that scared? I’d like to know.
“Is it really that dangerous out there? Are cops really that scared? I’d like to know.”
My impression of the average LEO, never mind the average adrenaline hopped up SWAT jockey, is that if ending the life of an innocent means they are sure they get to go home–they’ll empty the magazine every time. What SWAT really seems to be about, this poster’s apologies about what it should be notwithstanding, is the attitude that the trigger will get pulled first and at the earliest opportunity, until the slide locks back the last time, and questions will be asked after the presumed perp is cooling off if ever.
The answers never seem to almost never include the answer, the LEOS screwed up, and someone among needs to go to prison.
It is possible the grandmother that was ventilated on the pretext of a fraudulent warrant in Atlanta shows how grotesquely thuggish SWAT needs to be before they face even vaguely appropriate censure.
Yes, there is a bit of that “me vs. them” in SWAT culture. But more of the problem lies with vastly unqualified leadership and extremely poor mission selection, IMO. When an officer gains rank he/she goes through a mindset change that completely alters their enforcement persona, and they are no longer capable of making citizen-neutral public safety decisions. Everything is measured against perceived politics. Everything.
“It’s a difficult time to defend SWAT teams.”
That would be because they are ludicrously overused, their tactics cannot be distinguished from home invastion robberies, mis-employment is all but entirely consequenceless legally–and when they do things like wait a half-hour or more to call medics to their victims–they are acting like bloodthirsty savages.
The only difference between how Seal Team 6 treated bin Laden, and how that SWAT team treated Guerena, is that Bin Laden deserved to be executed in cold blood.
There is no other difference.
i’m sure there is nearly an infinite amount of difference between seal team 6 and your run of the mill swat team
discipline
talent
professionalism
mission clarity
etc
i do, however, agree with the comparison of swat teams being more of a pseudo military strike force than the law enforcement team sent to investigate some poor sap who is falling behind on student loans
I referred solely to there being little to no distinction in how they treated their targets. Of course the Seals expended far less ammunition per target, they can shoot straight.
Actually, there is a lot of difference between how military assault teams like Seal Team 6 interact with their victims and how SWAT teams do. You’re more likely to survive a military raid if their mission is to take you alive. They have discipline and are held accountable for their actions.
The cops are just armed thugs who don’t care whether you live or die, and the fact that they are almost never prosecuted criminally when they shoot up someone’s family, demonstrate that.
Take away their toys until they prove worthy of them.
Please take note I say nothing about the general case except that SEAL teams are far better shooters than SWAT teams.
All those members of the Pima County Sheriff’s Department SWAT team of Tucson, AZ who took part in the murdered of Jose Guerena while raiding his home and terrifying his family should be arrested taken into custody and charged with 1st degree murder.
I agree, absolutely. The disregard for the safety of the innocents in the immediate area is appalling. These clowns need to be made an example of. There is no logical reason to have denied first responders access to Mr. Guerena for OVER AN HOUR!!! They, from Dupnik on down the chain of command, should be charged with and prosecuted for first degree murder, especially the lieutenant in command on the scene. Those sorry ass excuses for policemen committed the act when they made the conscious decision to deny Mr. Guerena medical attention, which would have saved his life. They are no different than those two pieces of excrement who murdered Dr. William Petit’s family.
Find a sturdy tree and some strong rope.
I have noticed that, since Bill Clinton, our military has become more like a police force, and our police departments have become more like a military organization. Something is very wrong.
hmmm – meanwhile in the UK – the soft, liberal, everyone must win prizes and no-one is to blame culture has turned our once proud police FORCES into police SERVICES…….
Gramsci’s “long march through the institutions” has a vice-like grip on the body politic. There are VERY few elected politicians who grasp this – even fewer who can make a difference …….
“Gramsci counseled his side to begin a “long march through the institutions,” by which he meant the capture of the cinema, theater, schools, universities, seminaries, newspapers, magazines, radio, television, and courts. It is past time to begin a long march in a new and better direction” from but there are plenty of other references…..
Funny – I was thinking the same thing.
The first time I trained on room-clearing in Marine Infantry school in 1989 we were taught to toss a frag grenade into each room, wait to it to detonate – then enter and hose the room.
The last time I did it 16 years later in the National Guard, we were training with a SWAT on how NOT to kill everyone in the building.
You’re right OldSoldier. I remember the same thing during my SOI days Camp San Onofre in 1992 but the difference is that we were conducting urban warfare training and house to house fighting, not operating in a law enforcement capacity. Then again, back then we were trained that the only time you discharge your weapon was to apply deadly force…no such thing as warning shots, remember? My, things have changed. Nowadays warning shots are part of EOF and people would be surprised at how many times I’ve seen reports of folks in Iraq or Afghanistan catching a ricochet.
“National Guard, we were training with a SWAT ”
Do you NOT see a problem with this? I say abolish SWAT murder
I had mixed feelings about it.
All the team members I met were Army or Marine Vets and seemed to have their heads on straight. It’s a regional team that only gets used for specific reasons.
Since then I’ve only seen them used once – for a hostage situation that was an obvious SWAT scenario (and ended peacefully). I wish all teams were that restrained.
The first time I trained on room-clearing in Marine Infantry school in 1989 we were taught to toss a frag grenade into each room, wait to it to detonate – then enter and hose the room
From instructions to Red Army soldiers at Stalingrad: “When you enter a romm ever do it in pairs: you and a grenade, both without impedimenta: you with no backpack and grenade without its safety pin, grenade goes first. After it detonates fire an SMG burst in case there is something left then move to next room”.
No reasonable person thinks that there should be no SWAT teams. A person could question the use of SWAT teams and who should field a SWAT team. If HWEs Department of Education does in fact have a SWAT team that might be worth questioning. Should every College and University PD have a SWAT team? Should small local police departments have SWAT teams? The question isn’t about Swat teams but who should field a team. The second issue is the mission statement and use of these teams. I know most of the members of SWAT teams are dedicated, honest and hardworking, but they should not be used without some oversight. I don’t know who should oversee them but their dedication might be working against them sometimes, and they MAY be used more often than they should be used.
No reasonable person should think there should be no SWAT Team? Really?
Ok then. Please justify why the town of Ithaca, NY has not only a SWAT team but a $100K+ mobile command vehicle. I’ll let you look up the size and demographics of Ithaca, NY so as to not bias you with my opinions.
I eagerly wait your justification.
It is thoroughly amazing how day-by-day and year-by-year U.S. Marshall’s Fugitive
Apprehension Teams all over the country make dangerous arrests of armed fugitives with extremely few shots fired and/or officers or suspects wounded/killed. Well trained and competently led teams of officers from many agencies operating under that authority seem to know what they’re doing. Most SWAT teams, not so much.
I concur with most of Mike McDaniel’s points, except that any SWAT team without battlefield qualified leadership should stand down until that situation is changed.
They need qualified leadership, not necessarily “Battlefield qualified.” They need to return to (adopt?) the ethic that if it is necessary to discharge a firearm, then someone screwed up blindingly. And enforce that in training and on the ground.
I’d be a lot more comfortable with SWAT teams if the individual cops and their leadership could be criminally prosecuted and sued all to hell in egregious cases. It would put the fear of the Law back into them. as it is now, they’re damnear invulnerable.
While most cops are without a reasonable doubt honest and hard working, the “Blue Wall of Silence” means they cover for the bad actors in their ranks. Some cops are little more than bullies with a badge and gun. Some others are hopelessly corrupt. So long as the honest police officers tolerate the bad actors in their ranks, they will be perceived as no better than the worst cops on their force.
Your second sentence negates the first. The “Blue Wall of Silence” means that cops cannot be honest or trustworthy. The system has been so corrupt for so long, they think they’re honest.
A necessary evil is still evil.
“While most cops are without a reasonable doubt honest and hard working, the “Blue Wall of Silence” means they cover for the bad actors in their ranks.”
The second sentence negates the first. The “Blue Wall of Silence” means that there can be no (OK, there must be a few) honest or trustworthy cops.
The system has been so corrupt for so long, they think they’re honest.
A necessary evil is still evil.
The news today is a violent home-invasion service of a warrant by a SWAT team from the Department of Education! Initially, it was reported to be an effort to collect a delinquent student loan, but the government is now saying it was really for something else vaguely more significant but unmentionable.
When the Department of Education has a SWAT team, you know that the police state is already here. Now DOE is claiming they were really not trying to collect a loan, but is also refusing to explain what they were trying to do, or why they needed to serve a no-knock warrant at 6 AM for what they vaguely state may be a case of embezzlement or fraud. If the man’s estranged wife is the embezzler, why did they not spend the effort to actually know the address where she lives? Embezzlers are not violent criminals, probably won’t run or resist arrest, and are not likely to flush their ill-gotten gains down the toilet, if they haven’t spent them already.
Unless the federal Educators are conducting this type of invasive and risky type of action frequently, they are also unlikely to be well trained and proficient in these sort of tactics, as this article explains.
First however, let’s hear an explanation of why the Department of Education even has its own police force. Is the FBI not up to the task of enforcing federal law anymore?
According to the home owner, they did knock. They just used the standard LEO practice of only giving the citizen 30 seconds to respond and open the door.
Embezzlers are not violent? I should have you meet my ex wife. She was not only violent, but repeatedly threatened to kill me or have me killed.
Thing is you don’t know what you’re going to find when you SWAT a house. Even if your “target” is not violent and cooperative, there’s still the possibility of an ambush as what happened in Oakland not so long ago where they lost 4 cops shot dead in one incident.
SWAT teams don’t get deployed for little stuff. There’s obviously more to this Stockton Dept of Education story that is being covered up. And once the decision to use SWAT was made, they do research who is likely to be inside, get copies of the floor plan and grab any other info that will give them a tactical advantage. Or at least it’s prudent to do so.
Atlanta PD disbanded it’s Red Dog unit after they killed a 92 year old great-grandmother.
It only took 39 shots to bring her down.
Defend that Mike.
Dear Tolbert:
Defend that? May I suggest that you take the link to my analysis of the Guerena shooting (I am posting updates as pertinent information becomes available). I suspect you’ll find that I do not, in fact, attempt to defend the indefensible. You might also take not of the fact that I did not attempt to do that in this PJM post which was focused on quite a different topic.
I am not sufficiently familiar with the case you mention to comment intelligently, however, as this article makes clear, competent SWAT teams work very hard to entirely avoid using deadly force. When they must shoot, they strive to do it with great precision and economy of expended rounds. By those standards alone, what you suggest does seem excessive if not indefensible.
SWAT should be used for:
* Hostage situations
* Big shoot-outs like the Hollywood bank job
* Terrorism
They should NEVER serve a search warrant.
Got a dangersous suspect? Wait for him to leave home – arrest him on the street. Then search his stuff in peace.
The problem with NEVER using SWAT to serve a search warrant is there are times and situations where it is necessary: In my state, for example, you can enter a residence fo effect an arrest without a warrant if there is a felony abscounder present inside and you know for certain that he/she is in fact inside.
The alternative that sometimes is resorted to out of necessity (unless you prefer the felons, some significantly dangerous, to run amok) is to obtain a search warrant based upon probable cause to search the residence for the felon.
Family members often conceal such persons leaving little alternative.
Again, for SWAT to serve this, most units determine whether or not they can serve the warrant under a SWAT capacity based upon a risk assessment that must demonstrate “high risk” status. This gives numerical scores to various factors and the final number determines if it is a go or not. If this practice is followed, there is little chance that someone without a significant criminal history as well as other aggravating factors has a SWAT team knock in their door at 0300 hours.
During the years I worked at the Stockton Police Dept (82-97) policy was SWAT serves all warrants.
The reason? Officer safety. One or two street cops with handguns
do not have the firepower or resources to safely do this.
Warrants were often served around 5am, for tactical advantage. If the warrant was endorsed for night service they could be served anytime but generally Judges didn’t like getting awakened at night so the rule was you gotta have something good before calling a judge at home.
SWAT teams are getting a bad rap right now because of several incidents where they did not perform due diligence, research, training or whatever due to poor leadership.
If you SWAT a house you need to be damn sure you have a good reason based on reliable info. But once you have a good reason, you hit the house hard and make it safe then and only then do you figure out who is inside, who is involved, and who is not.
Cops risk their lives daily for you, and they will give their life to protect you – but dying for you is not their goal. Their goal is to go home to their families at end of shift.
I view SWAT teams as middle aged guys playing out their Rambo/Special Ops fantasies on the taxpayer’s dime. That alone is bad enough, but they routinely kill innocent people and behave in a manner consistent with a Police State. And once they have a SWAT unit, there will be pressure to use it, “Just to be safe”.
There was a time when the worst bad guys were taken down by plain old cops and detectives with .38 spl revolvers. A guy who can shoot straight with a .38 and make his first shot count will beat a guy who can’t most days of the week whatever the bad guys. Cops are paid to risk their lives to save the innocent. You know that 19 year old Marines would do it that way for far less pay, and wouldn’t need a command post to run the operation.
I am for getting rid of all SWAT teams and using the money saved to put more patrol officers on the street. The militarization of our police needs to stop and we need national legislation stopping.”
- I’m willing to bet that your average, veteran street cop would like to run to protect the innocent in such a situation. Of the few officers I’ve known in my life, I know THEY all would.
I’m willing to bet onereason they are prevented and must wait on ‘Special Weapons’ is because of (ready for it?) insurance and lawsuits.
I might be wrong, but I’ll bet that’s pretty close.
Mike, you are very right! The majority of guys in blue (if not vast majority) would quickly face danger in such a scenario. The reasoning of having SWAT is to accomplish the more difficult situations that require special weapons and training that, yes, require significantly more training. I imagine there are certain liabilities in using or not using whatever is in question.
What doesn’t get mentioned in these blogs it seems are the number of situations that are resolved by means of some of these special tools such as chemical munitions, less-lethal impact rounds, and so on that do not result in deadly force being applied.
What also seems to be missed are the numbers of police assaulted or killed in any given year. A far greater number are shot and injured rather than shot and killed.
“I’m willing to bet one reason they are prevented and must wait on ‘Special Weapons’ is because of (ready for it?) insurance and lawsuits.”
Sounds believable to me.
The other likelihood is they haven’t been certified for that action. We just had a case where various police and fire rescue people let a guy drown because none of them had the proper water rescue certification and it was against policy for them to jump in the water and save him without said certification. They had to get civilians to wade in and drag the corpse to shore.
That is bureaucratic rule making run amok, which could be tied to fear of lawsuits.
Whatever the reasons, things have changed. I want to change them back.
Yeah, your example is a classic case of someone making decisions who shouldn’t be. I do not desire to be the fellows in the boat who watched the guy die in the water in front of them, nor have to go to sleep at night having done nothing. The problem that I have seen is alot of administrative sorts arrive at the position intent on proving the peter principle to be correct. Additionally, there are some who become paralized out of fear of being sued if they make a bad decision (which those sorts seem so prone to make).
Lots of administrators, few leaders.
I think our hyper-lawsuit driven world seeks administrators rather than leaders, and that to our mutual harm.
The drowning in Alameda City, CA was slightly different. Somewhere in city govt/fire dept mgmnt they decided that even though they were an island city on the san francisco bay, they didn’t need water rescue capability so they retired their boat. Stopped training FF’s in water rescue, and did not equip them with the special boots they’d need to avoid drowning themselves in the quicksand like bay mud.
That plus FF’s are not cops, and cops are not FF’s. This was a potentially violent and possibly armed male who wanted to die. FF’s policy is to standby and wait for the police crime scene to be safe.
Solution – put a couple cops and FF’s on a boat.
But it does sound like dispatch forgot to call one of the nearby fire depts who still HAD shallow draft boats and could have arrived in time to save this guy.
This is not the first time people have died in Alameda County due to an inadequate or delayed response…the reason it’s news is because it was caught on film.
For the record, the most cutting-edge methodology requires a risk assessment prior to utilizing SWAT for a search warrant or arrest warrant. These assessments require a number of factors (criminal history, history of criminal use involving weapons, explosive pressence, etc.) to be reviewed and scored. A team’s SOP will state what that score must register to use a SWAT team, or at least a full-battle-rattle team (some agencies will still allow use of SWAT for the operation, although they will be dressed in regular patrol attire without “special weapons”, primarily due to manpower and comfort level in operational terms.
Without knowing the particulars of, or even if, an assessment was done for the young Marine’s incident, based on information released I cannot think of how his assessment would have warranted SWAT fully geared-up.
SWAT does have viable uses, including that of smaller, multi-agency composed teams.
Folks, there are still a number of those wearing blue, who use good judgement and whom would quickly put themselves at risk for those whom they serve.
There may well be officers of good judgment who put themselves on the line, however these same people take a see no evil, hear no evil , and most of all speak no evil when it comes to the indiscretions of their fellow men in blue.
Yeah, not so much. I’ve known a number of fellows who were properly run out of the business, usually due to their co-workers forcing the issue by bringing errors, whether competence or in judgement, to a supervisor’s attention.
This happens fairly often during field training, in spite of competitive hiring processes. Are there some who slip through? Yes, but likely in no greater numbers (and perhaps far less) than so many other professions.
For those of you who seem to think the popo are frightened cowards you are, in most cases, way off of the mark and likely do not know many. The two-edged pony is that, due to the lawyers and all of you people who have done nothing while liberals took over the country, to use force the usual standard is “in fear of one’s safety or that of another.” If you want that to translate into “the cops are cowards” then you are an idiot.
Finally, to those who think the SWAT guys are lurking in waiting to take your guns, again, you are way off of the mark. Most SWAT guys I know are generally gun enthusiasts and tend to be politically right of center.
I’m not from either coastal regions, but in the midwest, this is typically the way it is.
I have a fair amount of legal experience in these matters. IMO the situation won’t be improved until the civil liabilty exposure of insurance companies for local governments from SWAT team misconduct motivates underwriters to adjust premium and deductibles based on objective training criteria for SWAT teams. Those criteria already exist, as explained on the Confederate Yankee link and in some of the reader responses by former law enforcement officers.
Something like this actually happened in California, where I practice, for law enforcement firearms use policies, for handcuff policies, for officers protecting the heads of arrestees when getting in and out of LEO vehicles, etc. Insurance underwriting and police training developed well-known standards in these matters.
When public entities are offered lower premiums & higher deductibles for meeting such standards, as opposed to higher premiums and lower deductibles for not meeting them, market forces will start to operate. Law enforcement organizations with el cheapo SWAT teams existing mostly for prestige purposes (most municipal police departments) will find those costing them significantly more to operate then expected due to vastly greater insurance premiums, just as LEO’s with poorly trained officers discovered when insurance companies started forcing a choice between spending money on insurance premiums or on standardized & better training & official policies.
Then they may choose to give up their own SWAT-in-name-only teams and contribute, with a pool of other smaller LEO’s, to funding (at at least county level, or a group of counties in rural areas) to a shared SWAT team operated at a higher level. Market forces would then mandate that such SWAT teams be called in only for real needs which locate LEO’s can’t meet with their own resources.
I believe there’s another factor going on, when it comes to the proliferation of SWAT teams: the fantastic balkanization of law enforcement in the United States, and the proliferation of law enforcement agencies.
Most people imagine that their local police do all the local policing. However, these days, there typically are multiple agencies involved. Here in Los Angeles, Los Angeles International Airport has its own police force. The city has a separate force for dealing with the city’s park system. Believe it or not, the city’s library system has a separate police force too (yes, they have guns–better not let those overdue library books sit too long!). Then we have county sheriffs; typically every county in the U.S., save one like San Francisco (where the county and the city are one and the same) every county has a sheriff, and a bunch of deputies. Most states have at least one law enforcement agency for statewide operations, and some have multiples, again, California for instance having the CHP, the California Bureau of Investigation, and the State Capitol Police, among others. At the Federal Level, it’s not just the Department of Education that serves warrants and conducts raids. Everybody down to (last I heard) the Postal Service has a law enforcement arm, with guns and badges and supervisors and arrest powers.
The ubiquity of these agencies means that they’re all competing for “business” with each other. Whenever one agency or department makes a large bust, of drugs, say, other agencies which could have been in on the bust but weren’t get jealous. Each entity, as a result, tries to crowd out the others and get there first, so that they’ll be the ones holding the press conference. The post-mortem after the Waco raid of the Branch Davidian compound made it clear that the ATF supervisors involved *wanted* a raid, so that their guys would be sauntering around casually cradling automatic weapons, wearing windbreakers that say “Federal Agent” on the back. Very sexy on the evening news. One of the motivations for this was supposedly that the supervisors involved had been told that Congress might hold hearings the next year considering shutting their agency down, and transferring all personnell and responsibilities into the FBI. That of course would be Armageddon, so in the aftermath of Waco the Bureau has gone back to the drawing board, and now they’re ATFE, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and *Explosives*, because of course the terrorists use IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they *might* do it here, too, right? It’s good for the organization to be in the middle of things.
The thing is someone needs to *regulate* this. When the Bell salary scandal happened, it surprised me to learn that California has an actual *law* restricting how much money a particular city official can make (Bell officials circumvented the law by having the city pass a referendum making the city a “charter city”, which for some reason took them out from under the jurisdiction of the law). I would propose that states should pass a law regulating which law enforcement agencies can form SWAT teams, and what sort of standards they should have. How often they should train, how much they should shoot, etc. If an agency can’t fulfill these requirements, then they shouldn’t be allowed to form or keep a SWAT team, period. If they need one, they have to call the neighboring city, county, state, whatever.
Oh, and I agree with the one commenter that the individuals should be charged, though I’m not sure murder is the appropriate charge. Definitely manslaughter, though, and I would start with the supervisor, and perhas the sheriff himself as an accessory. My guess is the local District Attorney won’t prosecute like that, so I would suggest a Federal investigation, perhaps one of those “deprived of his human rights” things that the left loves so much, because they allow the government to circumvent the double jeopardy rule. But it’s hard to argue that they killed this guy without justification, and just labelling it an accident and the victim collateral damage seems very wrong.
The S in SWAT stands for “special”, is that like special as in those who ride the short bus?. My own state, the People’s Republic of Maryland, aka, Taxachusetts on the Chesapeake, as financially strapped as it is, recently purchased an armored personnel carrier that sits in the Jessups barracks, waiting for the call. Which begs the question, what call ?. When MS13 gangs start toting RPG’s ?. Or to assist in shooting the mayor’s dogs:
That’s what SWAT squads are more times than not,dogs off the leash.
Thank you! The Great PG County Sheriff’s Department Dog-Shooting Expedition should be mentioned every time SWAT abuse is brought up. And it’s not just PG – they’re doing it in Virginia, too. And every time it happens, the LEOs claim they were “in fear for their safety.” Does’t matter whether they shot a vicious pit bull, an attacking Doberman, a toothless old golden retriever, or a French Freakin’ Poodle – the story is always the same. “The dog was uncontrolled and the officer feared for his safety.” You almost get the impression that it’s now SOP to shoot any canine that shows a hair during a police operation regardless of the circumstances. Cop sees a dog looking at him from around the corner, cop goes around the corner and shoots the dog. I don’t understand it.
It’s difficult not to come to the conclusion that a substantial number of police officers a) are cowards or b) enjoy shooting dogs.
Bugs, in point of fact the concept of shooting the dogs isn’t very common any more but was a remnant of a practice of former sodiers (predominantly Vietnam Veterans) who in large part, were the chief organizers of the SWAT concept, which began in the late 1960′s and 1970′s. The term “hush puppy” referred to a silenced weapon used to dispatch sentry dogs by special operation units in the peopl’s republic of south vietnam.
Since the ‘police’ seem never to be prosecuted when they kill someone ‘accidentally’, why do they need special training, to avoid shooting the wrong person? If the default position is, “We never make mistakes”, then …
If the people are not protected by the law, it will eventually work the other way around. The very cynical position, seeming less cynical after every “Oops, sorry we shot your…”, is “What the hell, going to be killed regardless, might as well shoot first”, isn’t it?
I am truly sorry for your loss and the loss to the Iranian people of one of their most important voices.
Siamak Pourzands last act was not one of escape or weakness,it was an act of brave defiance in the face of repeated torture,imprisonment and brutal repression.
This world has too many people but not enough human beings,may your fathers spirit live on and inspire others because the world needs more like him and like you too Banafsheh,keep fighting the good fight for that day when Iran is liberated from the Islamist fascists who aim to eradicate Iranian culture , freedom of expression and the soul of Iranian civilization.
Armed, frightened, strong men in possession of automatic weapons turned loose on the community is a flawed idea. Take away their toys and check for counter-phobia. SWAT teams serve to diminish the traditional respect for the police of this country.
There is not enough information in this report to reach conclusions, but if a citizen is armed in his own house, and is shot, in a fusillade of 71 bullets, by police, without discharging his weapon, it smells. If it was a drug bust, but nothing was found, it smells more. If the shot suspect did not receive medical emergency aid for over an hour, it reeks.
The SWAT officers better hire lawyers. The local government better hide their cookie jar. Tort liability lawyers will shop for a new house.
State terrorism ALWAYS smells.
When I go to the local gun club to practice, if there are LEOs there practicing, I move to the far end of the firing line. These people are bad with firearms!..Far too often I have seen LEOs approaching stopped cars with their hands on their weapons, which indicates that they are in fear. I rarely see LEOs in a protect and serve mode but rather are hidden behind objects waiting at the bottom of hills to trap speeders.
My point is that we need FEWER of these liabilities on the street. Take their guns away, give them better training, and change their mission to one of actual protect and serve.
SWAT teams are fine. No knock warrants are not fine. No knock warrants to collect a student loan are extremely not fine.
SWAT teams are fine. No knock warrants are not fine. No knock warrants to collect a student loan are extremely not fine.
I had a girlfriend once whose brother actually ran a tactical training school for police and SWAT. It was interesting to watch to say the least. I actually got to participate once in a simulated ‘domestic disturbance that turns violent’ call.
It really was fascinating to watch. The one thing I noticed when they were milling around before or after was a real difference. Most of the standard cops we across the board, personality wise. The tactical cops were REALLY different. Almost to a man (again, I say ALMOST) they were a-holes. They really had this self image that they could do no wrong. They would even sometimes get angry when the instructor corrected them on specific maneuvers. Their attitudes seemed to be “it’s right, because I’m doing it that way.”
I remember wondering why there was such a huge personality difference.
A weapon that can not be used properly needs to be remover from the arsenal. From Mr. McDaniel’s article I get the impression that many, if not most SWATs are being misused. If this is the case they are a positive danger to the public that overrides their limited usefulness. Since politicians tend to bury their mistakes we have no idea how many unjustified deaths have occurred at any or all levels of government. The logic that follows is to end the SWATs.
SWAT (STATIST WEAPONS AND TERRORISM). Exists primarily for the day when the ruling elites decide to call the patriots’ refusal to take their orders,surrender their weapons,or stop anti statist blogging,drug dealing,terrorism, or hate crimes so that they can murder them.SWAT is the KGB in potentia.
It is time for people to face facts way too large of a percentage of the average LEO’s are adrenaline junkies with an US vs THEM attitude. Couple that with the refusal to police their own ranks of officers who are at best a menace to the public and you have a recipe for disaster. Add to that dip$it judges who will sign no knock warrants for j walking just because a cop or DA asks for it you shouldn’t be surprised that innocent citizens get KILLED.
The Mike McDaniel’s always come out to shill for the police repeatedly telling us it’s an isolated incident, it’s only a few bad officers, we the people don’t understand the stress of the job. Sorry Mike but now it’s become frequent incidents and police departments and fellow officers shield the “few bad officers”. Also if the stress of the job is too much how dose this compare with the stress of watching husband/Daddy shot 80 times and left to die.
Yes, SWAT teams have their place. So do nuclear weapons, but we don’t give them to every nickel-and-dime one-dog burg in the country. Nor do we generally allow HHS to launch them.
The reason for the increase in SWAT teams is active shooters. Why does the Ithica, NY police need a SWAT team? Because if someone is shooting up a school, church, WalMart, ect. you need a faster response than waiting on a state police or federal SWAT team.
A second issue is the number of shots fired or how many times a subject is shot. In 1986, nine FBI agents in Miami where in a shooting with two bank robbers armed with assault weapons. The agents were armed with .357 revolvers and one shotgun. Both bad guys were shot and killed in the first ten seconds of the gunfight. The problem was the bad guys didn’t realize they had sustained mortal wounds and kept fighting for six minutes. Two agents were killed and six more wounded in the fight.
Real life isn’t TV and people don’t drop dead when they get shot. It takes a brain shot or the loss of at least 25% of the blood in the body for someone to drop. That takes alot of rounds to immediately stop a threat.
In my academy days (CFCJTA 93-02), we heard a lot about that shootout. One thing our rangemaster pointed out is that because they trained primarily at indoor ranges, the FBI guys had been taught to catch their brass while reloading.
We were told that at least one of them was found dead with brass in his hand. We also were told that as a result of the ineffectiveness of the .38SPL, new standards were set for their handguns. If you shoot a .40 or a 10mm, you can thank the FBI for it, and the men who died in Miami.
it is SWAT that is/are the problems ..it is the people behind them that need to be purged.
there is NO EXCUSE for what has been happening lately and I blame the obama administration and eric holder in the DoJ for 99% of the problem.
Mr. McDaniel:
Well written piece, and to the point. I couldn’t agree more with the premise that many of today’s so-called swat units have morphed into something other than that which they were first intended to be. And you are spot-on regarding the political and budgetary ramifications of departments and specialized operations and gear.
At the moment I am in a multi-task mode with other projects and unable to respond to this thread as I’d like to. But let me say this, I am retired from one of our nation’s largest police departments. The middle of my career was spent as the department’s swat team commander, during which I was personally involved in over 1500 real-life, real-time, crisis-level tactical operations. I was honored to command a full time team of 60 officers and supervisors with an independent, stand-alone infrastructure, vehicle fleet, state of the art armory and multi-million dollar budget. My special operations experience spans years of training, research, systems development and academic study, as well as being a precipient witness and/or principal to countless cases of civil litigation. I was also honored to have worked and trained with the most highly skilled and mission-capable law enforcement and military special operation units ever produced by the USA and the UK.
With respect to the so-called “swat teams” we see today, I am embarassed by what I see.
There is no doubt that circumstances exist that require SWAT-types of responses …. BUT having said that, they need to be controlled and accountable. You don’t turn a guard dog loose to play in the park with other dogs and children and then walk away to have a latte.
Osama Bin Laden is in Hell wearing a TUSCON SWAT T-shirt, and he is celebrating the murder of a Marine that his fellow Jihadists failed to kill.
I’ll learn to spell eventually.
Osama Bin Laden is in Hell wearing a TUSCON SWAT T-shirt, and he is celebrating the murder of a Marine that his fellow Jihadists failed to kill. |
In MN, Massive Police Raids On Suspected Protestors 961. (Score:5, Insightful)
FUCK THE POLICE!
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Informative)
If only it were the police; it looks like the FBI may be involved as well [salon.com]
For the sake of the country, the people responsible for these raids must be fired (and very possibly sent to prison) for this. This is utterly unacceptable.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
For the sake of the country, the people responsible for these raids must be fired (and very possibly sent to prison) for this
If you think that will actually happen, can I have some of what you are smoking?
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Funny)
Don't give him any, he's a mole!
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful).
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
Denver police went to a house that had been rented by the protest group Unconventional Denver as a convergence center, and despite seeing no illegal activity, two protesters were arrested, with one reportedly slammed on his head during the arrest.
Sorry no comparison.
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful)
So what? They are involved in all of it, not just at the RNC. They messed with people at the DNC, too, documented here [infoshop.org], and here [recreate68.com], and here [indybay.org].
The point being that they do this everywhere (with the FBI and other armed bureaucracies involved). So it's the same thing they always do. They aren't doing anything "special" for the RNC.
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful)
I really hate to break it to you but yes the state or your nation is generally bound to the competence or incompetence of your current administration. When crap like this occurs and they say nothing, then they are complicit. Of course not to throw all the blame upon the republican administration, although as the 'Administration' it is largely their responsibility but a share would also have to go to the US congress and Senate for failure to investigate these and similar abuses of justice.
The catch with it all in the US system, is most of the egregious behaviour falls to the State Governor to ensure the principles of law and justice are adhered to within the state excluding of course the political involvement of the FBI which is of course a federal abuse.
Of course your post has a clear political bias which manages to equate questionable arrests at public venues when people are attempting to express the political opinions, to pre-emptive raids in suburban neighbourhoods, complete with the blatant theft of computers and personal property (when the warrant is so clearly bull shit it is theft) added, to that the extreme danger of no knock, guns drawn warrants with trigger happy law enforcement with emphasis on force, represents to those communities and especially the victims of those raids (in this case they were definitely the victims and the police where clearly displaying criminal behaviour).
So if Republican administrations says nothing about it and gives it the tacit approval, then, yes, they are quite content for the authorities to stomp all over the people's rights. By the same token if the Democrats say nothing or fail to initiate an investigation of these abusive in the proper venue, then they can be painted with the same brush and, to bring it all home, if the typical US citizens fails to do something about it, then you can bloody well expect at lot worse to happen, good luck.
Re:MN governor (Score:5, Insightful)
Your making a mountain out of a mole hill just because coincidence supports your opposition.
I know it is easy and fun to do but your ignoring a lot of things like this isn't the first time something like this has happened. It has happened under Bush, Clinton, and the three presidents before him. It was increased after Reagan was shot and this type of activity was seen as a real threat. When a cop car was torched in California, they became a lot more proactive then reactive. Taking ancillary information and attempting to pursue a point of grand conspiracy is often what makes conspiracy nuts look like the NUT case that lends their name.
The bottom line is that cops-officials were able to infiltrate these groups and after learning of intended wrong doing, they waited until they started putting plans together and swooped in. It doesn't really matter who the part in power it or who the governor is at this point. Someone's right to protest does not include the ability to disrupt an event or cause physical damage to anyone or their property. "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." does not infer damaging someone's property or attempting to take their free speech away. Something I have never understood is when people claim the speech is such a protected point that they have the right to stop others from using it. The constitution clearly says that no rights inferred or protected by the constitution shall be used to deny others of their rights of the same. But somehow, these groups manage to think their right to free speech means they have a right to stop someone else from their speech and when they are stopped in their tracks, they have people like you buffaloed into thinking some grievous infringement has occurred. It's simply amazing.
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful)
Right. Instead of blaming the Republicans, these widespread police state tactics should be blamed on whatever fuckwit party is currently running the oountry.
Republican bashing??? It's ILLEGAL!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
What the hell is wrong with you?
Re:Republican bashing??? It's ILLEGAL!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
You're a dumbass. The OP clearly said he thought it was wrong regardless of who was doing it.
He was merely pointing out that somebody is pushing an agenda. The story submitter could have just as easily linked to *both* stories about illegal arrests before both conventions. Instead, they linked to the single story and spun it as "look what Republicans are doing."
Re:Republican bashing??? It's ILLEGAL!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone who RTFA would see the author's observation."
So if the submitter had an agenda to conceal that abuses happened in Denver, he did a crappy job of it.
However, the Denver abuses seem to have been mostly garden-variety police thuggery; these Minnesota raids involved the FBI [salon.com] and included months-long espionage and infiltration. One of the groups specifically targeted is "I-Witness Video", a group that did a great job capturing exposing thuggery and perjury by police during the 2004 Republican convention.
I have some news for you. (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to mention the attitude of the FBI. The FBI, after all, has demonstrably adopted the attitude of the governing administration over the last 8 years. It is to be expected that if the FBI overreact, it will be in regard to the Republican convention, not the Democratic. Thus, bias is built into the system by the very people who complain about the "offenses".
Second, if you really, honestly, wonder why Republicans have been bashed so much lately, maybe you should consider the fact that a great many (a majority, in fact) of the American people are PISSED OFF at the Republican Party over the outrageous botch job they have made of our government over that same 8 years.
Do not misunderstand me! I am NOT a Democrat! But any person who pretends to possess some objectivity about the matter MUST admit that the Republicans have gone a very long way to make a hash out of what used to honestly be a perfectly decent democratic republic form of government. They have botched literally everything: foreign policy; domestic social policy; privacy; "the war on terrorism" (what a joke); "the war on drugs" -- an even bigger joke; fiscal policy; education; the economy; taxes; and the personal freedoms of the citizens of this country. Not ONE of those areas is better off today than it was when Bush took office. Not one. And during most of those 8 years they were IN CONTROL over not only the white house but Congress as well.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE. There is nobody to blame. The Republicans have f*cked things up so badly that I despair of things returning to normal within my lifetime.
Once again: I am not a Democrat, and I do NOT trust Democrats to fix everything. But that has NO bearing on whether the Republicans messed things up. They did. Badly, and big time.
The argument that things have been worse at other times in our history won't wash. All of those things were BETTER, 8 years ago. Period. And the Republicans literally have nobody to blame.
So before you go accusing people of discriminating or acting preferentially against Republicans, you should ask yourself: "Do they have legitimate REASONS for doing what they do?"
You might find, if you are honest with yourself, that the answer is "yes".
Re:I have some news for you. (Score:5, Insightful)
One more time: MOST of these last 8 years, the Republicans were in charge of both the White House and Congress. Trying to say that the Democrats are to blame "too" just doesn't hold water. THEY had the controls; it does not do any good to try to blame someone else.
And despite "rebate" checks, if you are an average American your taxes went UP during this Republican administration, not down.
"Pesonal citizen freedoms have not changed." ??? How do you try to justify this outrageous claim??? I am not the one smoking crack here, dude. It's easy enough to say (as you do more than once) that someone else does not have a clue, but you are supplying no clues of your own. In fact I really don't think it is me who is demonstrating lack of clues here. Please come back and chime in some day, AFTER you have done your research.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Informative)
For the record, when I submitted this I hadn't gone more than a few paragraphs into the articles, and hadn't realized it was for a Republican event. This wasn't submitted for any sort of bashing, more of an "oh my god people need to know about this" submission.
Nothing is wrong with protesting an event. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem comes in where protesters make a disruption at the event (usually during the middle of a speech). This seems to be an effort to stop that kind of activity.
Where is there any evidence anything illegal was planned? Or is this going to be an "oops, we made a mistake" after the convention is over?
Falcon
Re:Nothing is wrong with protesting an event. (Score:4, Insightful)
From TFA: [startribune.com]
I'm not saying it's right to raid their houses and arrest them just for having it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with legal ways to protest using buckets of urine and equipment for disabling buses.
Weird....there are TWO FA's.. (Score:5, Informative)
I was going to accuse you of inaccurate quoting, but now I find (while writing my comment) that there are TWO articles: the one you link to and the one the summary links to, which I checked first. In the article I read first I found this:
Quote
The alleged urine[...].
End quote
I haven't seen anything about coltraps or equipment for disabling buses in that one either. All I found was that
Quote
[The sheriff] displayed a number of the confiscated items: a gun, throwing knives, a bow and arrows, flammable liquids, paint, slingshots, rocks and buckets of urine.
End Quote
I have not enough time to read all of the article you link to (gotta go to work
:-( ), but I find this interesting...
To be clear: I quoted from the linked article.
The weird thing is that the article you link to is on first sight
Re:Weird....there are TWO FA's.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Gun - Legal (and quite normal) if you have the papers
Knife - Legal (in a private residence)
Bow and arrows - Legal
Flammable liquids - Legal
Paint - Legal
Slingshots - Legal
Rocks - legal
Buckets of Urine - Legal (odd, but Legal)
So they had this stuff in a private residence, all of it legal, and
....
Re:Nothing is wrong with protesting an event. (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA [startribune.com]:
Deputies seized a variety of items that they believed were tools of civil disobedience: a gas mask, bolt cutters, axes, slingshots, homemade "caltrops" for disabling buses, even buckets of urine.
From another article by the same newspaper, the Star-Tribune [startribune.com]:
."
As for the rest you list, when were they made illegal?
I'm not saying it's right to raid their houses and arrest them just for having it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with legal ways to protest using buckets of urine and equipment for disabling buses.
One bucket of urine in an illegally occupied apartment, the occupant of which had nothing to do with the protest group. And again, when was the other stuff made illegal?
Falcon
Re:Nothing is wrong with protesting an event. (Score:4, Interesting)
Molotov cocktails are even more common than most of the other items on the list.
I have all the ingredients in the back seat of my car right now. A few empty glass bottles (used to contain iced coffee), two pints of motor oil (gee, why would anyone carry *that* in their car?), and a couple of old T-shirts that have been sitting in the back seat for a month or two because I never get around to bringing them back inside when I'm home.
According to the videos that have been posted, the search warrants included such things as "cloth, flammable liquids, glass bottles" and "metal, plastic, or cardboard boxes."
The hard part would be to find a house in America that doesn't have all of those in it.
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful)
These people were sick fucks. Their "tools of civil disobedience" were buckets of urine, flammable liquids, knives, etc. If you have any sympathy for them you are a sick fuck too.
So can we assume that you yourself are not allowed to possess flammable liquids, knives, or urine?
If you were allowed to light a BBQ that uses charcoal (not one of those yuppie gas grills), you'd know that it's mostly done with a flammable liquid.
They had duct tape, too! Auto tires! Chicken wire! A slingshot! Maps! All seized by the vigilant Fearless Fosdicks. Sheer criminal masterminds, obviously. (Good thing it wasn't my house, because I've got all of those things and firearms, too!)
Re:Rock bottom (Score:4, Interesting)
Your comment made me laugh, it really did. Go look at the civil liberties raped over and over by both sides during the American Civil War or during the First World War in the US, then compare/contrast to the current "erosion" of civil liberties.
What has gone on for the last eight years is nothing compared to what happened in the past. How many languages have been outlawed in the last 8 years? None, go back to the teens, the government did the equivalent of making Spanish outlawed when the German language was all but criminalized.
In 1918, these 'anarchists' would be getting deportation hearings right now, even if US citizens or born here.
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Funny)
Well they DID ban French fries for a while.
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, so what you're saying is that because it's not as bad as a century ago, it's OK? There was also a point where not actively following the state's religion would get you killed. That doesn't make today's religious hysteria acceptable, even if it's not as bad relatively speaking (though it seems we're headed back in that direction).
Please get out of the country now, for everyone's sake.
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm talking about the political and legal history of the United States since 1860. Compared to the American Civil War, the First World War and the Second World War, the crackdown on civil rights has been tame, compared to the dangerous faced with new asymmetrical weapons and tactics.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because what happened before was worse doesn't make this ok.
Falcon
civil war (Score:5, Interesting)
The US civil war had concentration camps (both sides equally and wretchedly, little to no rations meaning starvation, no clothes or shelter winter or summer,just whatever uniforms they were caught in that soon turned to rags, and that's it, disease was rampant, etc) and a lot of generic genocide involved with it, especially the rape of the south, Sherman burned everything, farms, cities, he didn't care, total war as he went, he burned and hung. And both sides used what weapons they had extensively. The only reason they didn't use poison gas is it wasn't invented yet. The weaponry though was still horrific, and medical care started out with no pain killers and went downhill from there. Causalities, direct battle deaths or later on from injuries and disease, was around 600,000 for a combined around 4.5 million soldiers. For comparison, WW1 - 115,000 US deaths, WW2 400,000.
The US civil war was a *big deal* not to be discounted as some little popgun war.
It's more complex (Score:5, Informative)
The horrible number of casualties were the result of
A) First and foremost, failure to adapt fast enough to new weaponry and tactics. E.g., took an awfully long time to sink in that a rifled gun shoots accurately to IIRC 300m, while against muskets it was reasonably safe to march to 100m and stand tall. (Oh, you could get hit by musket fire too, but, as an officer in the age of muskets put it, only if it was aimed at someone else;) There were years of horrible massacres, where thousands of soldiers were marched in formation to 100m, and then they shot essentially point blank at each other, standing tall and taking the volley.
B) Incompetent charges that ignored the officers' advice and marched some soldiers to slaughter. E.g., Picket's Charge.
C) Essentially, the first attempt in history at having a broad front war. Previously war had been historically a set-piece affair, where two armies would meet, fight, and that was it. E.g., when the Gauls invaded Rome, or Rome smacked Carthage, or whatever other historical war, don't think that they had a front across Italy. It was basically the army of one side vs the army of the other in _one_ point, and that decided the fate of the war. They might leave a detachment behind to besiege some city or whatever, but there was no coordinated effort by multiple armies. The American Civil War was arguably the first where that was even attempted, and it resulted in hideous casualties as essentially there were more battles all over the place and more generals trying to win some glory by breaking the opposite line in some God-forsaken place.
D) Railroads. Unlike previous times in history, it was now trivial to keep reinforcing and resupplying a lot of army. Where previously you'd admit defeat or fortify and wait for reinforcements for a year (see Hannibal), here it became a case where it was possible to throw more soldiers at anything. And they did. With the logical results.
E) Lack of modern medical care. Wars had always been a crappy affair in that aspect. The Minnie ball caused horrible wounds, and there were no antibiotics or even anesthetics.
Additionally:
1. Focusing on _US_ casualties in WW1 and WW2 is rather misleading. The USA took only a minor part in the trench battles of WW1, for example. The finance and industry of the USA played a bigger role in both world wars, than the actual soldiers in the trenches.
For the countries which actually held the line in those wars, the casualties were a lot more horrible. The USSR in WW2, for example, lost ten _million_ soldier and some thirteen _million_ civillians in WW2. Let that sink in a bit, next time the "we won WW2" willy-waving contest comes by. China lost some 4 million soldiers and 16 million civillians, and their contribution to the attrition and over-extending lines of the Japanese should not be overlooked in the Pacific War. On the Axis side, Germany lost 5.5 million soldiers, and almost two million civilians. You don't think you were that good that you fought Germany single-handedly and caused 10 times more casualties than you took, do you? But at any rate, that's what WW2 was really like, for those in the middle of it. There's an estimated 72 million people who died in that war.
In WW1, the Brits took almost 60,000 casualites just in the first day of the Battle of Somme. Almost half of what you took in the whole war. And while I'm too lazy to look up numbers, France almost depleted their manpower to the point where they were out of conscripts for many years after the war. There's a reason for the pacifism and (in the USA isolationism) after the war. Humanity had never seen such carnage before, and was thoroughly shocked.
So writing only the USA casualties for both wars is IMHO highly misleading.
2. Again, the fact that something has happened before, doesn't excuse the present.
The general history of humanity started from ritualized mass-murder and slavery, and we had a long way to gradually become more... civilized. And I don't mean just having TV and Sla
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
And compared to Joe Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer was a piker at murder. Your point?
I'll also note that WWI and WWII were actual declared wars. We are not in a state of war with any nation at the moment.
More people die from drowning every year than were killed on 9/11; to claim that we face a terrorist danger necessitating that we abandon our civil liberties is ridiculous.
Re:Rock bottom (Score:4, Insightful)
Your comment made me laugh, it really did. Go look at the civil liberties raped over and over by both sides during the American Civil War or during the First World War in the US, then compare/contrast to the current "erosion" of civil liberties.
You're a tool in every sense of the word. It's 'enablers' like you that try to justify every wrongful action. Who cares if it was worse a century ago, who cares if Mexico is worse. The only reason we're better NOW is because we iterated towards a better society.
How exactly is defending this going to make the world a better place? Indifference is the enemy of progress and you're worse. You're a piece of garbage weighted around the ankle of positive change.
Ba'athist Party in Iraq (Score:5, Informative)
The Ba'athist parties are about all thats left of that classical Socialist-Fascism
And guess who supported Saddam and the Ba'athists in Iraq in the 1980s? Republican presidents Reason and Bush Sr. Guess who was on Bush's staff or is now on Jr's staff who helped Saddam? Here are some photos of Rumsfeld and Saddam together [google.com]. They're shaking hand like old pals. At first Secretary of State Cheney also supported Saddam during Bush Sr's term in office. Support for Saddam only ended after he invaded Kuwait who, Saddam had accused of and was later verified, was slant drilling [wikipedia.org] into Iraq to pump Iraqi oil as if it was Kuwaiti oil. Before his invasion of Kuwait Saddam could do no wrong no matter how many people he used chemical weapons against.
Falcon
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
So aircraft flying into some of the tallest buildings on Earth, and one flying to the largest office building on Earth and leaving 3,000 dead is an "idea"?
No, that isn't a war. That's a CRIME. Like a bank robbery or somebody going off to kill everybody in the local school or church or post office. Like, for that matter, Timothy McVeigh and his buddies. Oh, make no mistake, it was a horrific crime. One even more effective that the Japanese subway gas attacks. I assure you that I take no pleasure in being in the World Trade Center Health Registry, like all the tens of thousands of us who still don't know how much damage those attacks did to us.
But it was not an act of war. Especially since even if we want to blame the Taliban, most of the world's governments, including our own, were loudly proclaiming that they weren't the legitimate government of Afghanistan even before 9/11.
Re:Rock bottom (Score:5, Insightful)
Women still don't get equal pay for equal work
and from the other side, men still pay 25% more on average for medical, life, and auto insurance, and are treated in the media like emotionless "things" to be leeched from and divested in divorces of half their assets as a business.
The sexism cuts both ways.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
this is scarier because of your reaction. if there had been any physical altercation, we'd be hearing about police brutality and terrorism, and we'd be hearing it a lot. but because people (like yourself) are willing to let it get swept under the rug when it's "dirty hippies" getting their voices silenced, the fascists will just continue to erode your rights. not oppression indeed...
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Insightful)
First off people that pull of the gloves or at least threaten to should always be delt with in a manner that involves a punch in the teeth. That is what these groups do, and they got what they asked for.
Where's your proof any of the protesters threatened anyone with violence?
So what we had here was a bunch of people planning on making an ass of themselves by engaging in criminal/border line criminal behavior
Where's your evidence?
I grow weary of children who cry about how "bad" it's getting when they don't even know how bad it really was before they even came along.
I lived through the '60s and '70s, through COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org], and through Wstergate [wikipedia.org]. Did you or were you too young, not born yet?
Falcon
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
And now you post this. Do you realize that some of the people attacked (yes, attacked) by the authorities were NOT people planning protests, but rather people (and legal reps) planning merely to OBSERVE protests and videotape them to insure that people's rights are not violated? To make sure that the authorities don't commit crimes?
But no, you applaud this, because you're an authoritarian fuckwit hypocrite who is happy to see the law violated and rights trammeled upon, as long as the victims are people you don't like.
Actions like the police have done are eroding our civil rights - your civil rights. But you still have some. Stop now and think of those rights you still have. Now stop and realize, if you're capable of it, that the reason you HAVE those rights is because the people you detest - the liberals, the ACLU, the civil rights activists - fought for them. Fought for them in the streets and in the courts, against the attacks on them coming from people who think like you. People who are like you.
The people you detest fight for your rights against the attacks of people like you.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the best part of the Greenwald story:
Once Gustav gets here, I'm sure all of this will blow over.
Re:Oblig. (Score:4, Informative)
This is utterly unacceptable.
I agree and I've written to Obama/Biden headquarters (again) to let them know that we citizens are expecting them to give us back the Bill of Rights. Writing here [barackobama.com] to express our concerns should be more effective than all of us bemoaning the situation on
/.
If anyone knows of a site where the GOP candidates are also asking for comments (and having someone read them), please post it also.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Interesting)
Tonight, I was coming home from a sign painting party for the Campaign for Liberty, here in the Twin Cities. I stopped at Walgreens and saw a police car in the parking lot. It said, "Federal Protective Services" "POLICE" "Department of Homeland Security". I had never heard of this organization before now. There is an article on them here: [wikipedia.org]
What I find chilling is the words "Federal" and "POLICE" put together. And this was not any typical FBI-style black unmarked job. It was a police car in every way. Lights and all.
Yes. In eight short years, we have been transitioned into a police state. Mind you, there have been many attempts over the last several decades to in one way or another federalize the local police. These efforts have been resisted by grass roots organizations. Through the Patriot Act, this has now been accomplished. All local police are now arms of the Federal government. And we have bona-fide Federal Police running around.
It Will Only Get Worse. And it does not matter one whit who wins in November. Either candidate will work to extend and consolidate federal power, and further restrict liberty.
Re:Buckets of urine (Score:5, Funny)
unless someone has a better (serious) explanation for the buckets of urine.
Maybe they didn't pay their sewer bill.
Re:Buckets of urine (Score:5, Informative)
unless someone has a better (serious) explanation for the buckets of urine.
Maybe they didn't pay their sewer bill.
There was no toilet in the apartment where the only bucket of urine was found. The other buckets were filled with dirty water, to flush the toilets that were in the building. But they, whoever they is, will turn off water. I live in Minneapolis in an apartment and so far this year we have gotten 3 notices the water will be turned off if the bill is not paid.
Falcon
Re:Buckets of urine (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a house full of people waiting to protest and the toilet backs up, where else are you gonna go?
Also possessing buckets of urine, slingshots, bows 'n arrows, and guns is perfectly legal (or was the gun illegally registered, or otherwise illegal?) Certainly there are plenty of illegal things you can do with all of the above items, but unless there is actual evidence that crimes were to be committed with the items, simply having them isn't a crime.
So at this point it looks like we just have to wait and see what evidence comes to light, including a reasonable explanation of why there were informants in the groups to begin with.
Re:Buckets of urine (Score:5, Informative)
Here's your "better explanation." Not that it will change your thinking in the least.
Also, since when was ownership of a firearm evidence that someone intends to perpetrate a crime? The NRA would like to have a word with you.
Re:Buckets of urine (Score:5, Informative)
The Star-Tribune SUCKS. Can't trust them. I've lived in Twin Cities.
My sources (in MN) say that that most the buckets were gray water and a few were because there was no bathroom (the place was over crowded.) Not to mention there is no crime for pissing in a bucket.
In addition, the Star Trib spends time on the anarchist group when most the raids were OTHER groups that were not anarchist and the paper didn't explain that and left it for the reader to mis-characterize all the other people involved in the raids when most of them were peaceful people gathering on private property.
They were NOT civil to reporters in all situations. Plus in some cases the people they held were the people asserting their constitutional rights. (there no warrants in most cases.)
Plus if you have been following, there were reports of the FBI trying to get students to be informants for them... One student spoke out about it months ago; one wonders what kind of characters volunteer for it-- and how trustworthy they are if they hate these protesters to begin with and that is why the agreed to be a voluntary government spy.
here is another link [twincities.com]
also (Score:5, Insightful) (Score:5, Insightful):also (Score:4, Insightful)
while I agree the country would have it's fair share of racists, there would be other reasons to be proud to fly a confederate flag, when the southern states economy was being sacrificed for the northerns piece of mind, they chose to secede. Basically a 'fuck you for not looking after us too', which is similar to what USA did to the english some time earlier,
lesson learned, try to secede, win and your considered heroes by the population, lose and you'll be cast the villain forever, the victor writes the history.
Re:also (Score:5, Insightful)
My reference material is all at home, or I could provide citations here -- but prior to later (early-1900s) revisionism of its teaching in American textbooks (and certainly in its immediate aftermath), the Civil War was well understood to have had the issue of slavery at its heart.
Re:also (Score:5, Insightful)
informants (Score:4, Informative)
There was an informant inside this organization that told authorities what was planned.
Here's a link about your informants: "Moles wanted" [citypages.com]. Informants only get paid if an arrest is made. Let's see, I'm a mole and I know if the info I give doesn't lead to an arrest do I tell the truth or do I lie?
Falcon
Re:also (Score:5, Insightful)
What? First, the RNC isn't "the government." Second, yes they are anarchists. From their website [nornc.org]:
They intend to block the bridges into and out of the city. The blockades are going to be categorized as "red zones" (prepared for "self-defense"), "yellow zones" (peaceful but assertive), and "green zones" (aiming to avoid risk of arrest.) I don't see how holding public property by force is at all non-violent.
I agree however, people should protest. They should protest these hooligans who don't believe in the core basis of the USoA: that ideas will not be propagated by violence. Differing opinions will be discussed and if your opinion isn't the most popular you don't get to enact your ideas. Perpetrating acts of violence, intimidation and seizing property for long term use (a goal described on their website) aren't something any civilized country should be getting behind.
Re:also (Score:5, Interesting)
let me point out that "non violent" doesn't mean you do everything you're told, that's called "complicity" or at best "complacency". Having 50k people arrive at a location and sit down and refuse to leave may not be convenient, and might even put some people at risk (say, you were in the middle of hte crowd and had a heart attack), but that is not "violence".
"violence" involves destruction, pain, intimidation and real risk of bodily injury. *some* anarchists are into that sort of thing. But "Anarchist" covers a wide variety of people, just like "republican" does. Some "Republicans" don't think it's ok to kill anyone arab just because some arabs hate us. Some think we should "turn the middle east into a parking lot".
it's not fair to judge all republicans by the violent assholes within any more than it is to judge all anarchists by the same measure.
I also don't think that seizing property that is not being put to use when there are people who need shelter in the streets is so radical that "no civilized country" should get behind it.
further, I wouldn't demonize anyone who looks at the current state of our country and thinks that maybe we're getting close to the point where words alone is not sufficient response to the ongoing mismanagement, misinterpretation and appropriation of our government to anyone with suitable ambition and a large enough checkbook.
I'm not at that point myself, but I can't say that it would be impossible to get there in my lifetime and sometimes I do wonder if I'm just playing the game laid before me by "the house", and the house always wins.. witness RealID and the basic conception among most people that you "can't challenge the federal government", constitutional or not.
Re:also (Score:5, Insightful)
What?!? I must have completely misunderstood the modern US history of the last 8 years or so. I had no idea that the CORE BASIS of the USA was that ideas wouldn't be propagated by violence. Speaking as someone living outside the USA, your foreign policy hasn't led me to believe that either.
Come to think of it, maybe the violent rebels of 1776 should have rembered it too.
Re:Oblig. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not how you stop riots... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, indeed. The "anarchist" morons from all over the country came to Seattle looking for a riot , the the equally brain-dead cops gave them a reason.
"Anarchists" and Repugnitans, a match made in heaven.
Re:This is not how you stop riots... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
When was the last time that caused a riot? (Score:3, Insightful)
Bottles are broken every single day.
I see a different broken window at local businesses at least once a month.
Those events do not cause riots.
They are "minor". They are resolved by arresting / fining the idiot(s) who did it.
I am also in Seattle.
Re:This is not how you stop riots... (Score:5, Insightful)... (Score:4, Insightful)
Your country is lost. Might as well vote for McCain. No need to drag it out. Only thing gonna save you is retaking the Reality Studio. But that takes guts and you folks have been sittin' on your butts too long watchin' Judge Judy and American Idol and the great hypnosis machine where black is white and freedom is slavery and we spread democracy by murdering elected leaders.
Re:This is not how you stop riots... (Score:5, Insightful)
In a sane society, wouldn't the warrant be required before actually bashing down doors? Oh wait, I forgot that isn't necessary anymore. Obviously the new FBI powers aren't intended to only be used to protect us from terrorists, but from those damn protesters too.
textbook example (Score:4, Interesting)")
Re:This is not how you stop riots... (Score:5, Interesting)
... this is how you START them. This coming from someone from Seattle who lived on Capitol Hill during the WTO riots and had police overreact and create a situation when none existed.
Exactly. You may have heard about similar unrest at the APEC summit in Vancouver in 1997, where I was living at the time. The overreaction to protests by police is a distraction tactic.
In Vancouver when Prime Minister Cretien first visited after APEC, again there were protests that turned violent. The police formed a "bike line" about 150' from the entrance to the hotel where Cretien was, meaning police with bicycles stood about 25' apart and ordered everyone not to pass them. Since it was not even remotely intimidating everyone marched right past them. But having done so, they can then be arrested and charged with disobeying a legal police order.
So they had uninhibited access to the hotel front doors, which were recessed from the sidewalk and therefore private property. Once they were on private property, asked to leave, and they did not, they were then trespassing as well. As luck would have it, there just happened to be a legion of police with full riot gear in the hotel lobby to engage the protesters with batons and pepper spray.
Either they were giving out gourmet donuts, or it was a deliberate tactic to entrap the protesters into committing crimes. They report to the press that the protesters had access to areas within vocal range of the Prime Minister, but forced their way through the "barricade" with the intent of engaging the Prime Minister violently, so reciprocal violence was justified.
In the end, the violence upstages the protest, and nothing gets done about the human rights violations they were trying to bring to the public's attention. It's been a popular tactic in North America since the 1960's. Now it appears they're taking preemptive actions to make sure the protesters are going to put on a good show. Makes sense, given the level of apathy these days.
I advise anyone involved in a protest to enlist the aid of people trained in conflict resolution (i.e. bar security staff) to quell any troublemakers among the protesters, and have a lawyer on site to act as a liaison with the police. You're probably going to need one eventually, and you know you'll have to deal with the police. Who deals with the police without a lawyer? Criminals, idiots, or both.
Re:This is not how you stop riots... (Score:4, Insightful)
The police knew the protesters were predisposed to ignore warnings and proceed where there were not adequate physical barricades to obstruct them.
Yes, so what? Is that supposed to be an excuse: "the police knew we like to break the law, so they should've just let us do it"?
Look up the legal term "due diligence". The police did not exercise due diligence in preventing the protesters from committing crimes, nor warned them of the consequences.
The police aren't obligated to prevent crime -- well, IANAC, so maybe they are up there, but I doubt it. They certainly don't owe it to potential criminals to stop them from getting themselves in trouble, though.
As for the consequences... what exactly did the protesters think was going to happen when they ignored a warning from police, walked through a barricade, and trespassed on hotel property after being asked to leave? Perhaps they thought they could just shout "king me!" and the PM would have to accept their demands?
That is the very nature of entrapment, no different than manipulating the motivations of a lonely man into hiring a prostitute.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Entrapment is about convincing people to commit a crime they otherwise wouldn't have committed.
It's very different from manipulating someone into hiring a prostitute. No one was manipulated into crossing that barrier or staying on hotel property; in fact, they were told not to do it. That's about as far away from entrapment as you can get.
In Soviet Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
In Soviet Russia, you didn't have the right to peaceful assembly or to travel without showing your papers.
I wish there was a joke I could make here.
Re:In Soviet Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, you COULD travel inside the USSR without showing papers. Train and airplane tickets were anonymous and you did not need to show ID to board a train or an airplane.
Re:In Soviet Russia. (Score:5, Insightful): (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes.. that's what "suppression" means.
Re:In Soviet Russia. (Score:4, Insightful)
Anarchists? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Anarchists? (Score:5, Funny)
Ferdinand was a classmate of John McCain, you insensitive clod!
Not suprising (Score:3, Insightful)
Unconventional weaponry (Score:3, Funny)
Personally I'm surprised that, upon finding "buckets of urine" that the police decided to take it with them.
Re:Unconventional weaponry (Score:5, Interesting).
sad day (Score:5, Insightful).
No protesters at the DNC? (Score:4, Interesting)
Could the fact that we didn't see such an article about last weeks DNC be because there wasn't anybody bothering to protest? HBO's Real Time had footage from the "Free Speech Zone" in Denver which had more kids on bikes than protesters.
Re:No protesters at the DNC? (Score:5, Insightful)
Repeat of the NY Republican Convention (Score:5, Informative).
And you guys want to bring democracy to others? (Score:5, Insightful)?
Re:And you guys want to bring democracy to others? (Score:5, Insightful)
And then the W guy comes up and talks about spreading democracy in the middle east? How about spreading it in Minneapolis?
I want to quote something directly from one of Greenwald's updates to the piece here, which directly addresses this point:
During the Olympics just weeks ago, there was endless hand-wringing over the efforts by the Chinese Government to squelch dissent and incarcerate protesters. On August 21, The Washington Post fretted:
Six Americans detained by police this week could be held for 10 days, according to Chinese authorities, who appear to be intensifying their efforts to shut down any public demonstrations during the final days of the Olympic Games. . . . Chinese Olympic officials announced last month that Beijing would set up zones where people could protest during the Games, as long as they had received permission. None of the 77 applications submitted was approved, however, and several other would-be protesters were stopped from even applying.
On August 2, The Post gravely warned:.
Would The Washington Post ever use such dark and accusatory tones to describe what the U.S. Government does? Of course it wouldn't.?
COINTELPRO 2.0 (Score:4, Insightful)
So peaceful!!! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So peaceful!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
You'll find those and other items in many houses. A quick glance through my apartment revealed the following suspicious substances and items:
Very sharp knives longer than 5 inches (I cook)
Precursors for biological weapons (I cook with very hot spices, good enough for pepper spray)
Nerve toxins (I smoke and drink coffee)
Percursors for explosives (aspirin)
Precursors for drugs (acetone)
Information and tools to invade computer systems (I work in IT security)
Dispensers for aerosols (my deodorant bottle)
Highly aggressive chemicals (toilet cleaner)
Camoflage kit (shoe polish)
Rubber gloves (I hate to touch my toilet without, especially with the cleaner involved)
Equipment to create an electronic bomb timer (welding gun and a few ATMegas)
Hydrogen peroxide (I wear contact lenses)
Drug containers (plastic bags and tin foil)
Equipment to create pamphlets and other propaganda material (I have a printer for my computer)
Equipment to remotely detonate an exposive device (I fly RC planes)
Heavy metals (lead, to balance out the planes)
Need I go on?
You will find a similar collection of "highly suspicious and potentially dangerous" items and "equipment" in many homes. There mere existance doesn't prove anything.
The other side? (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, hearing just one side of a story almost always leaves out important facts.
Before we go apeshit, shouldn't we maybe get the government's / police's side of the story?
I'm not saying that nothing bad happened here, just that until we know (or at least give an opportunity to be voiced) both sides of the story, we're really flying blind.
My weird similar experience in NYC in 2002 (Score:5, Interesting)
In February 2002, the World Economic Forum was held in New York City, and I planned to (and did) protest it. The alter-globalization movement had been protesting these things for years. New York newspaper headlines screamed that "anarchists" had better not come to NYC and cause trouble with the WTC still smoking and all of the claptrap. What made it even more nonsensical is it hadn't been planned for an NYC meeting, Giuliani had convinced them to move the meeting to NYC after 9/11/01, despite knowing the WEF always brought out massive demonstrations since evil types like Bill Gates always hobnobbed at such events. So working to bring a demonstration magnet to NYC after 9/11, and then decrying that there demonstrators would bother New Yorkers still grieving from 9/11 sounded a little hollow.
Anyhow, a friend of mine suggested we go to a building in New York called ABC No Rio. They are a "progressive community space" type of place they have art shows there, live bands, a progressive/zine library, a feed the poor group Food Not Bombs and that type of thing. Anyhow we went in and they were organizing a demonstration. I should point out I had never been there and my friend had rarely been there, we were just nearby and at the spur of the moment he wanted to see if a friend of his was there.
I should also point out that of all the progressive demonstrations in the US in the past twenty years, I can't recall an instance of physical violence against someone. There may have been one or more cases, but I can't think of any. A handful of way-out folks smashed windows in Seattle, burned down some new unoccupied houses in a new housing development somewhere out west and the like, and in the case of the latter a massive federal investigation sent some of those people to jail. So one has to question the need for a massive federal "monitoring" of progressive groups is needed for. Especially considering the history of these things - Nixon had a bunch of burglars break into the Democratic Party election headquarters, the FBI used these extraordinary powers granted to it to interfere in the political sphere - stating as a goal the need to stop a "black messiah" from arising, which including bugging Martin Luther King Jr. and leaking tapes they made of him to the press, particularly extra-marital affairs. When Warsaw Pact secret police did such things in their countries, it was decried as tyranny here - when our secret police work to dismantle organization of African-American and progressive people (as the FBI did, Google COINTELPRO), it is soon forgotten and you hear the need for the PATRIOT Act and the like giving power to the same people who abused it for political purposes before.
Anyhow me and my friend leave ABC No Rio. We hail a taxi and go about half a mile to Greenwich Village. My friend wants to go to a bar he went to a few months before, but can't find it. Anyhow, he realizes we are headed in the exact opposite direction than we should be, so we both do a 180 degree turn and start walking the way we had been coming. A man in his late 40s who looks very out of place for Greenwich Village on a Friday night was about 10 meters behind us. He sees us loop around and then has a look in his eye for a second, and then he also spins around and walks the other way. All things considered, especially his facial reaction when we both did a sudden 180 and began walking towards him, I know as sure as the sky is blue that he was following us, and that he was following us because we had gone into ABC No Rio. ACLU lawsuits and that type of thing after the WEF protests, and after the Republican National Convention talked about the extent of the surveillance, and fortified in my mind what I already instinctively knew was true. What scared me was the extent of the surveillance. I would dislike, but would not be as alarmed by them monitoring who went in and out of that building (where nothing was even happening! Except for planning a legal political demonstration that even the AFL-CIO was protesting in). But to follow two guys across New York City, through cab rides, on foot, who had very little to do with even organizing the demonstration much less doing anything violent during it, spooked me.
Re:My weird similar experience in NYC in 2002 (Score:5, Interesting)
I just have to sit there while people plot to destroy my city to make their political points and then once they have destroyed the city I can do what to them.
Conspiracy to commit a crime is in many cases a crime. When you have proof of that, you can arrest people. Until that point, they're just citizens.
It is the people like me, the ones you call enablers, who will have to pay the price for picking up all the garbage and repairing all the damages so the city can function again.
Your notion is that the financial costs of cleaning up after a protest are so high that it justifies preemptively arresting a wide variety of people who haven't committed crimes and most of whom won't?
By that logic, we should certainly arrest the VFW, as their memorial parade makes more of a mess than any three protests I've seen.
Fear the Dye! (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked with a group of kids when I was in my teens one Summer. --You know, games and sports and arts & crafts and such. This one day, we made tie-dyed shirts.
Well the shirt I made turned out pretty good and I wore it for the whole afternoon and kind of forgot it was on me. Then after the kids all went off back home, me and a few of the other 'leaders' decided to head out for a movie and burgers and stuff. At the end of the evening, we all split off and I was on my way back home alone.
My opinion of humanity then began to plummet.
Taking public transit, I was getting all these freaked out looks. Everybody was acting as though they were scared of me. --I was used to being totally ignored, but people were really, really nervous. It was baffling. It happened not just with the occupants of one bus, but on another and on a train as well. I didn't work out it was the tie-dye shirt they were all reacting to until this one Stephen Colbert clone actually measured me up and down with an expression of abject, "Small-guy-on-his-first-day-in-prison" and then made a comment about the Grateful Dead being really cool in some kind of weird effort to. . , not get hurt by me? It was utterly unreal. I couldn't believe just how limited a set of lives people must lead in order to react in such a manner. As just a teen-ager, (back when I wasn't aware of politics in the slightest,) even I had worked out that hippies were the last form of political life you needed to back slowly away from.
I filed the incident away under, "Fear and Ignorance" for later reference and have dusted it off for you today.
-FL
Re:Disruption != peaceably assembling (Score:5, Interesting) (Score:5, Informative) (Score:5, Insightful).....
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Transportation Troubles...
Sounds like a Critical Mass rally.
Re:Disruption != peaceably assembling (Score:5, Informative)
Note the quote from the police - Police said despite the massive traffic disruption on the motorway, the man had the right to protest peacefully.
Bob
Re:Disruption != peaceably assembling (Score:5, Insightful)
The police have a higher standard to hold to because they're the professionals. If they can't follow the law then they have no business enforcing it.
Re:Disruption != peaceably assembling (Score:5, Insightful)
TOUGH SHIT.
Re:Disruption != peaceably assembling (Score:5, Informative):Selective Citations? (Score:4, Insightful)
And pretty please explain to me why it's illegal to have pvc pipes, chicken wire and duct tape.
Re:RTFA you twats (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I dunno where you pee when your plumbing is shot, but my neighbor got really pissed last time I used his door, so please enlighten me what would be a more suitable receptacle for my waste than a bucket.
Aside of that, what are "these kind of rally groups"? What gives you the goddamn right to assume I'm going to be protesting violently just because someone else has in the past? If I did, ok. It is under some circumstances allright to assume that I may protest violently again if I did in the past. To issue the recommendation back at you, RTFM. Nobody ever had any problem with those college kids whose houses were raided. So what visionary powers give you the idea that they would be?
Oh. Right. "these kinds of rally groups" are always like that. Ain't stereotyping fun? It saves the thinking.
IF they get violent, arrest them. Until then, I cannot see any good reason to use the force that was used. |
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Bert B Beach
Seventh-Day Adventist religious liberty executive
There is little doubt that religious liberty is best exercised within the setting of the secular state. This does not mean the state should be hostile or indifferent to religious bodies, but rather that it must exhibit what has been called a "benevolent neutrality." ...
Freedom of religion also implies the right not to have or profess a religion. This is sometimes overlooked. It is a sad commentary on religion that religionists, probably quite well-meaning at times, have throughout history tried to force fellow human beings into a required religious mold. Apart from the very wrong theological assumptions involved, this is a flagrant violation of the dignity of the human person. Coerced religion is demeaning and of little value.
-- Bert B Beach, Bright Candle of Courage, 1989, pp. 14-15, quoted from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)
Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)
American historian
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
-- Charles Austin Beard (attributed: source unknown)
Simone de Beauvoir (1908-1986)
French writer and political activist
I cannot be angry at God, in whom I do not believe.
-- Simone de Beauvoir, The Observer (London) (January 7, 1979), quoted from Encarta® Book of Quotations (1999)
Christianity gave eroticism its savor of sin and legend when it endowed the human female with a soul.
-- Simone de Beauvoir, referring to when the Council of Nicea, by a single vote, declared woman to be "human," quoted from totse.com
Ferdinand August Bebel (1840-1913)
German socialist leader
Christianity is the enemy of liberty and of civilization. It has kept mankind in chains.
-- August Bebel, Reichstag speech (March 31, 1881), from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
When socialism comes into power, the Roman Church will advocate socialism with the same vigor [with which] it is now favoring feudalism and slavery.
-- August Bebel, address to the Social Democratic Party Congress, Jena, 1906, from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Samuel Beckett (1906-1989)
Irish-born writer known for his absurdist plays
The bastard! He doesn't exist!
-- Samuel Beckett: Hamm, in Endgame, after attempting to pray. Clov replies, "Not yet" (1958)
How can one better magnify the Almighty than by sniggering with him at his little jokes, particularly the poorer ones.
-- Samuel Beckett: Winnie, in Happy Days, act 1 (1961)
Enough of acting the infant who has been told so often how he was found under a cabbage that in the end he remembers the exact spot in the garden and the kind of life he led there before joining the family circle.
-- Samuel Beckett (attributed: source unknown)
What do I know of man's destiny? I could tell you more about radishes.
-- Samuel Beckett, "Enough," in Six Residua (1978)
Henry Ward Beecher (1813-1887)
US clergyman; abolitionist
There is tonic in the things that men do not love to hear. Free speech is to a great people what the winds are to oceans ... and where free speech is stopped miasma is bred, and death comes fast.
-- Henry Ward Beecher (attributed: source unknown)
Lyman Beecher (1775-1863)
American cleric, father of Catharine Esther Beecher (1800-1878), a suffragist; Edward Beecher (1803-1895), a clergyman, educator, and abolitionist; Henry Ward Beecher (1813-1887), a clergyman, newspaper editor, and abolitionist; Harriet Beecher Stowe.
[Disestablishment was] the best thing that ever happened to the state of Connecticut. It cut the churches loose from dependence on state support. It threw them wholly on their own resources and on God.
-- Lyman Beecher, The Autobiography of Lyman Beecher 1961, Vol. 1, p. 253, from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
John Beevers
Historian
I do not know that Christianity holds anything more of importance for the world. It is finished, played out. The only trouble lies in how to get rid of the body before it begins to smell too much.
-- John Beevers, World Without Faith (1935), quoted in S T Joshi, ed., Atheism: A Reader
Francis Bellamy
American Baptist minister; author of the original Pledge of Allegiance; brother of Socialist author Edward Bellamy, whose Socialist convictions Francis shared, costing him his pastorate in Boston in 1891 for refusing to hide his Socialist convictions during the course of his sermons
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands,
one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
-- Francis Bellamy, the original Pledge of Allegiance, as it appeared in the issue of The Youth's Companion (September 8, 1892).
-- Francis Bellamy, giving his reasons for writing the Pledge in the first place, quoted from Dr. John Baer, "The Pledge of Allegiance: A Short History (1992)
[A] ... clumsy redundancy ... a mangling of the original.
-- Francis Bellamy, reportedly responding to the addition of "of the United States of America," quoted in Kate Santich, "Writer was protective of his 'poetic' Pledge" (The Orlando [Florida] Sentinel: October 25, 2003)
Baer: Quadricentennial Columbus Day Celebration
.'"
-- Dr. John Baer, in his essay, "The Pledge of Allegiance: A Short History" (1992), see also Baer, "The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance," from Propaganda Review (Summer, 1989)
Granddaughter: Would Have Resented 'Under God'
"Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change ... In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there."
-- Dr. John Baer, in his essay, "The Pledge of Allegiance: A Short History" (1992)
Grandson: Changes 'Spoiled the Poetry' of the Pledge)
Great-grandson: Bellamy Unhappy With Changes)
Great-granddaughter: Godless Pledge Invites More Americans
As a regular churchgoer who has voted both Democratic and Republican, I believe that my great-grandfather [Francis Bellamy] got it right. A Pledge of Allegiance that does not include God invites the participation of more Americans.-- Sally Wright, explaining in a 2002 letter to The New York Times what she knew of the author's intentions for the Pledge of Allegiance, quoted in Kate Santich, "Writer was protective of his 'poetic' Pledge" (The Orlando [Florida] Sentinel: October 25, 2003)
Bio quip derived in part from Robert E Nordlander, Letter to the Editor of Together in Faith (as submitted, October 29, 2001) and posted on Nordlander's e-list.
John BellamyGrandson of Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance)
Scott BellamyGreat-grandson of Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance; owner of Bellamy's sandwich shop in Trinity Commons in Cordova, Tennessee)
John C Bennett
The first reason for emphasizing the separation of church and state is that it is the only way of assuring the complete freedom of the church.... The second reason for believing in the separation of church and state is the preservation of the state from control by the church.... The third reason for emphasizing the separation of church and state is that it is best for the church to be on its own.
-- John C Bennett, Christians and the State 1958, from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
It is obvious that the churches in America should not use their members as political pressure groups to get special ecclesiastical privileges for themselves as against other religious bodies. They should not seek legislation, even if they can influence enough votes to get it, which interferes with the religious liberty of minorities and they should be thankful that the courts stand guard at this point.
-- John C Bennett, Christians and the State 1958, from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)
British reformer and philosopher of law and legislation, who laid the foundations of utilitarianism
There is no pestilence in a state like a zeal for religion, independent of morality.
-- Jeremy Bentham, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
The spirit of dogmatic theology poisons anything it touches.
-- Jeremy Bentham, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
No power of government ought to be employed in the endeavor to establish any system or article of belief on the subject of religion.
-- Jeremy Bentham, Constitutional Code, quoted from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
Sir Isaiah Berlin (1909-1997)
Russian-British philosopher, historian
One belief, more than any other, is responsible for the slaughter of individuals on the alter of the great historical ideas -- justice or progress or happiness of future generations...or emancipation of a nation or race or class...this is the belief that somewhere...there is a final solution.
-- Sir Isaiah Berlin, Two Concepts Of Liberty (1958)
Sarah Bernhardt [Henrietta Rosine Bernard] (1844-1923)
French romantic and tragic actress
Me pray? Never! I'm an atheist.
-- Sarah Bernhardt, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
David K Berninghausen
American educator, University of Minnesota; avid supporter of intellectual freedom; strong and persistent foe of censorship and of the loyalty oath programs that were popular in the 1950s
In order to get the truth, conflicting arguments and expressions must be allowed. There can be no freedom without choice, so sound choice without knowledge.
-- David K Berninghausen, Arrogance of the Censor (1982), quoted from Mike Reed, "Scientology, Censorship, President"
Dr. Andrew BernsteinAmerican philosopher and educator; adjunct professor of philosophy at Pace University; Humanistic novelist, author of Heart of a Pagan; author of Cliff's Notes for several Ayn Rand works, regarding the theme of his novel, Heart of a Pagan, which tells of Swoop, a leading college basketball player, who moves to Iowa with the dual mission of bring their team to the championship and converting those he meets to a creed based on reason and individual achievement rather than faith, in Regina Milano, "New Novel Pits Faith vs. Freedom" (2002) an e-promo from the publisher the New Testament revealis in I Corinthians 10: 4-6, upholding obedience above all else, rather than love; witness this, St Paul's call to arms, a passage well-known among modern Evangelicals: ours -- PAM), in Regina Milano, "New Novel Pits Faith vs. Freedom" (2002) an e-promo from the publisher. -- Andrew Bernstein, in "The Philosophical Foundations of Heroism" (2001) Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty. -- Andrew Bernstein, in "The Philosophical Foundations of Heroism" (2001) Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty
Tim Berra
Professor of Zoology, Ohio State University
There is no law that mandates the teaching of evolution, and there should not be, yet it is practically universally taught in universities and colleges around the world. The theory of evolution is what is taught because it is what best explains the data in a rational manner.
-- Tim?Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism (1990), pp. 139-40.
-- Tim?Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism (1990), p. 126
Matt BerryAmerican author, philosopher
Should we cover our heads and whimper because reality is not as we would have it? Beautiful lies are not superior to horrible truths, so why not hear the truth even when it is vulgar?-- Matt Berry, Post-Atheism: A Mechanist's Journey from Christian Materialism to Material Spirituality, p. 73
Faith is the fatigue resulting from the attempt to preserve God's integrity instead of one's own.-- Matt Berry, Post-Atheism: A Mechanist's Journey from Christian Materialism to Material Spirituality.-- Matt Berry, Post-Atheism: A Mechanist's Journey from Christian Materialism to Material Spirituality
This is post-atheism. I extract from my inherited culture a knowledge of human behavior and accept the predicament: "I am a machine, and my function is to lie to myself." The subjective struggle for self-control ... a new spirituality after atheism begins here.-- Matt Berry, Post-Atheism: A Mechanist's Journey from Christian Materialism to Material Spirituality
I take it to be the highest endeavor and the greatest offense for a human to attempt life mastery, to break up the foundations of existence and build anew. There are many books on stark reality ... about the disease of existence. Without denying that there are such existences but far from musing on death, I assert that a human can steer toward a higher fate, a more valuable conclusion ... and, risking a trite expression, live a happier life.-- Matt Berry, A Human Strategy
Perhaps this is the soft underbelly of a book exposed to the modern world: to say that one can be happier and more valuable without a "beyond" ... that one can not only learn to be content with reality, but can aggressively pursue greater and greater joy.-- Matt Berry, A Human Strategy
How can one argue vigorously against an absurdly childish notion without betraying that one actually takes the issue seriously? Had Galileo not recanted, he might then have proved himself a sort of religious fanatic after all.-- Matt Berry, The Mechanics of Virtue (p. 148)
In response to the fear of our unknowable future we would rather freeze ourselves into a single stage of growth at the expense of the entire metamorphosis.-- Matt Berry, A Human Strategy (p. 121)
The question sets the trajectory of the answer. The crowd stands safely behind. If the crowd has aimed the canon askew, I can only lose: if I answer, my answer will be set off in vain ... if I refuse to answer, I have "avoided the battle" ... if I stop to debate the positioning of the question itself, there will be no crowd pleasing thunder ... if I seize the question and turn it around, correctly aiming at the problem -- the crowd -- I will be torn to pieces.-- Matt Berry, A Human Strategy (p. 23)
There is quite often, however, in every over-crowded herd at least one insubordinate ... one idiot who actualizes the cry for "Truth at all costs!" With him alone, the act matches the principle and not the habit. He thus presents himself as an obstacle to the persistence of the error, and the culture now crucifies the highest type of its own morality.-- Matt Berry, The Mechanics of Virtue
Now, what should happen if the habit-script were a mandate for an action which threatened the inertia of the script itself? For example, the actualization of a chant for "fearless honesty"? This inherited (and therefore revered) message sets the stage for a passion play. The herd receives its Holy Habit, but the chant requires an action which supersedes "mere chanting." The chant itself demands a distinction between a complacent harmony through habituation and a consistency seen only through grounded reasoning. All the while, repetition blindness prevails in the majority, and the chants and actions persist in their sacred form, rationally inconsistent with each other ... and pleasant.-- Matt Berry, The Mechanics of Virtue
Annie Wood Besant (1847-1933)
English philosopher, theosophist
[N]o philosophy, no religion, has ever brought so glad a message to the world as this good news of Atheism.
-- Annie Besant, The Gospel of Atheism (1877)), quoted from George H Smith, "Defining Atheism," in Atheism, Ayn Rand, and other Heresies
The position of the atheist is a clear and reasonable one. I know nothing about God and therefore I do not believe in Him or it. What you tell me about your God is self-contradictory and is therefore incredible. I do not deny "God," which is an unknown tongue to me. I do deny your God, who is an impossibility. I am without God.
-- Annie Besant, The Gospel of Atheism (1877), quoted from Austin Cline, "Defining Atheism: Early Atheists"), quoted from George H Smith, "Defining Atheism," in Atheism, Ayn Rand, and other Heresies
For centuries the leaders of Christian thought spoke of women as a necessary evil, and the greatest saints of the Church are those who despise women the most.
-- Annie Besant, The Freethinker's Textbook Part II -- Christianity, 1876
This coarse and insulting way of regarding woman, as though they existed merely to be the safety-valves of men's passions, and that the best men were above the temptation of loving them, has been the source of unnumbered evils.
-- Annie Besant, regarding Paul's teaching in I Corinthians 7:8-9: "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I But if they cannot contain, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn." Quoted from John E Remsberg, The Christ, pp. 320-21.
W I B Beveridge
American scientist, historian of science
Hypothesis is a toll which can cause trouble if not used properly. We must be ready to abandon our hypothesis as soon as it is shown to be inconsistent with the facts.
-- W I B Beveridge, The Art of Scientific Investigation (1950, rev. 1957), quoted from Laird Wilcox, ed., "The Degeneration of Belief"
Cultivate an intellectual habit of subordinating one's opinions and wishes to objective evidence and a reverence for things as they really are.
-- W I B Beveridge, The Art of Scientific Investigation (1950, rev. 1957), quoted1996-2006, by Cliff Walker, except where noted.
There's something to be saidfor doing your own work. |
>>IMAGE ‘a cash ‘consideration’ to a Kenyan military officer on duty to look the other way, while [he] obtained the copy’ of the document. (Smith Decl. Para..”
Obama wants to be President and Commander in Chief. He therefore has to show that he is eligible for the position. This means he has to conclusively prove, among other things, that he is an Article II “natural born Citizen.” Given that his father was not a U.S. citizen and his U.S. citizen mother was too young when Obama was born and therefore could not transmit U.S. citizenship to him should Obama be born out of the United States, Obama must first conclusively prove that he was born in the United States and was subject to its jurisdiction when born, thereby making him a Fourteenth Amendment born “citizen.” Once he conclusively proves that fact, he must then conclusively show that he is a “natural born Citizen” under Article II, a showing that he cannot make because his father was a British subject/citizen when Obama was born and Obama himself was born a British subject/citizen.
On the threshold question of place of birth, Obama has posted on the internet a computer image of an alleged Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) (not a Hawaiian long-form Birth Certificate). Regarding the place of birth issue, Judge Land said that he could not accept the Lucas Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate as reliable because plaintiffs’ counsel did not “produced an original certificate of authentication from the government agency that supposedly has official custody of the document.” But let us consider what Obama has produced to show that he was born in Hawaii. We know that he posted on his web site the image of a Certification of Live Birth (COLB) as proof that he was born in Hawaii. But we also know that numerous people have questioned the authenticity of this computer image. There have been allegations by some “experts” that the electronic image is a forgery. Many people have demanded that Obama produce to some official government authority for inspection an actual piece of paper which was used to produce the on-line image of the COLB. Many people have demanded to see the real long-form birth certificate so that conflicting information (including but not limited to statements made by Obama’s own family, Kenyan government officials, and African newspapers) regarding his place of birth can be put to rest. Numerous people have demanded that Obama release to the public the many other documents (education, travel, and employment) which can corroborate his birth place claim but he has refused to do so. Neither Obama nor the State of Hawaii nor any governmental entity or official has provided this information to the American public.?
I understand that when a party presents a document to a court of law as evidence, that party must satisfy the rules of evidence for that court to receive that document into evidence. A judge confronted with such a document is bound by the law to apply the rules of evidence when deciding whether or not to accept that document into evidence. I therefore cannot fault Judge Land for his decision to refuse to consider the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate. I am also not suggesting that this birth certificate has been shown to be authentic. But what Judge Land ruled regarding the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate raises a much more important point. Judge Land was not willing to accept the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate because as he said counsel did not “produced did Judge Land not apply the same evidence standard to Obama’s on-line COLB as he did to the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate? I understand that Obama was not attempting to introduce the internet image of his COLB or the paper version thereof into evidence and so Judge Land did not have to rule on the admissibility of that evidence. Nevertheless, if we are committed to learning what is the truth regarding Obama’s place of birth, should we not expect Judge Land in his comments to treat all documents equally until each document’s reliability can be sufficiently confirmed?
Should not the Court have been much more concerned with the question of whether a person occupying the Office of the President and Commander in Chief is truly born where he says he was than it was with the question of whether the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate was authentic and therefore admissible into evidence? Something is wrong when a Court does not accept the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate because there is no government agency certification as to its authenticity but it accepts an unconfirmed, on-line electronic image of a document that is not even a birth certificate as the only piece of hard evidence that allegedly shows that the President was born in Hawaii. Just like Judge Land rejected the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate because no one presented “an original certificate of authentication from the government agency that supposedly has official custody of the document,” should he not also have reject Obama’s internet-posted COLB since he also never provided any such authentication document to the American people or to any competent government agency? Should we not be more concerned with making sure that the computer image of the COLB which Obama presented to the public and the actual paper version thereof and the long-form birth certificate are authentic than with making sure that the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate presented in a court proceeding is authentic? I believe the answer is obvious. In short, is Obama’s evidence as to where he was born any better or even worse than that of Captain Rhodes’ evidence?
Why have some allowed such a double standard to exist? Why should anyone protect Obama to the point that he or she is willing to risk the nation’s very survival? What is so wrong in confirming whether something is true, especially when one can suffer devastating consequences if it is false? Is the price for knowing the truth about Obama's birth place and whether he is an Article II "natural born Citizen" so heavy that we just have to accept things the way we are told they are? Let us hold Obama to the same Alice in Wonderland standard Judge Land used in the Rhodes case-“simply saying something is so does not make it so.” And let us also remember that the emperor could have no clothes.
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
185 Gatzmer Avenue
Jamesburg, New Jersey 08831
9-18-09
33 comments:
Why did Judge Land not apply the same evidence standard to Obama’s on-line COLB as he did to the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate?
Did you not see the part about the absurdity of claiming to be protecting the Constitution while also shifting the burden so that the defendant has to disprove the allegations?
Taitz showed Land the wrong B/C. She should have used the internet COLB forgery team Obama was using to fool the American public.
How would have Land reacted to that piece of garbage?
May I have the pleasure of one case citation that supports such an absurd proposition..
In this case, the supposed Kenyan birth certificate was introduced into evidence. The COLB was not.
When the judge ruled that the supposed Kenyan birth certificate did not have any authentication from the Kenyan government, he was referring to the need to authenticate a document introduced into evidence. He did not ask for authentication of the COLB because it was not introduced into evidence.
smrstrauss,
If you will read my article more carefully you will see that I have already covered your point.
It is a very good assessment of the double standard the courts are placing on those who challenge the Usurper.
I never thought I would live to see the day when the federal courts were afraid to enforce the Constitution.
It is now starting to remind me of how the King, Parliament, his ministers and his judges acted towards are Founding Fathers in 1774.
Cheney entertained objections in the electoral counts in 2005, but not 2009. Wonder why?
Since you wrote: "Judge Land was not willing to accept the Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate because as he said counsel did not “produce can't Obama's COLB be introduced as a piece of evidence by the plaintiff and thus be placed under the same scrutiny?
And insofar as the "double standard" such as Cheney not entertaining objections in 2009 (you can clearly see a member with his hand raised in the video who was IGNORED *applause applause applause*) but he did entertain them in 2005 (Stephanie Tubbs, about 'voting irregularities' ha)...and ALL he corrupt judges, including Roberts with his "oopsie" on the oath and then a secret oath given...
They have to be co-conspirators in this communist takeover. If they were true patriots they could never have betrayed the nation thusly even if there were dozens of severed horse heads left on their Sertas.
These people had to have been installed carefully over time, such that none of them would uphold their duties at the critical hours.
Clinton removed the question about communist affiliation from the background check form. None of Obama's cabinet, Czars, nor himself would have passed the old one. The unearned vilification of McCarthy has reached the popular media.
Obama himself with intense ties to a proven criminal organization ACORN should have his security clearance ripped away, which he shouldn't have ever gotten anyway with his British citizenship.
This is corrupt through and through, Obama is dismembering the USA systematically. At least people are awakening to the "preposterous" idea that this is what it is...a communist takeover, which is nefarious, transitioning from befuddlement and frustration to the realization that we are under attack from within. It's like the first 911 jet, "was that an accident?"...then came the second. Well in terms of what Obama's already done to the nation we are on the 5th or 6th jet and there's no more need to wonder.
May I have the pleasure of one case citation that supports such an absurd proposition.
You talking to me? The plaintiff generally has the burden of proof in a case. See Wigmore on Evidence: "The burdens of pleading and proof with regard to most facts have been and should be assigned to the plaintiff who generally seeks to change the present state of affairs and who therefore naturally should be expected to bear the risk of failure of proof or persuasion."
See Treatise on American Election by McCrary and McCune: "The presumption always is, that a person chosen to an office is qualified to fill it, and it is never incumbent upon him to prove his eligibility."
Dear Mr. Apuzo,
Respectively Sir, I sense that the law clerk is in the way of the judge. Is there diligence on your part to seek just who the clerk is. Given the law breaker's in these days intentional take every opportunity to
thwart our good laws and ethics.
Candid Blogger,
Judge Land said "Simply Saying Something Is So Does Not Make It So." Hence, what Ms. Fukino SAID is not sufficient to prove that which she SAID happened or did not happen. Just like Judge Land wants to see OFFICIAL WRITTEN AUTHENTICATION regarding the alleged Smith Kenyan Birth Certificate, we also want to see THE SAME regarding Obama's alleged (1) computer-imaged "Certification of Live Birth" (COLB); and (2) original, long-form "Certificate of Live Birth"(BC), in whatever form it may be. Simply stated, we should not be operating by a double standard. Remember that the only thing that Obama has published to the world (which includes the Electoral College, Congress, and all the courts that have decided cases (not the merits of those cases) regarding Obama's eligibility is the computer-imaged COLB.
The two newspaper announcements standing alone have no probative value because they were generated from the same source that SAID the birth event occurred and which forms the basis of the alleged COLB or BC. We do not know who provided the information to the newspapers that forms the basis for the announcements. Hence, those announcements alone do not provide any additional corroborating evidence by which we can judge the veracity of the alleged computer- imaged COLB or some underlying, unseen, and unverified BC. That missing corroborating evidence (root evidence) would be, for example, (1) who provided the underlying birth event information that was used to generate the birth announcement (e.g. was it a hospital, doctor, nurse, government official, or was it a family member or friend), (2) the name and address of the birth hospital, (3) the name of the delivering doctor and nurse or midwife in attendance, (4) medical records confirming the birth event, and (5) any other reliable information tending to prove the facts alleged.
The key point is that there is a critical difference between what someone tells us happened or did not happen and what someone proves to us happened or did not happen by whatever standard of proof we as a community agree to apply in that particular case. In other words, we do not accept something to be real on the simple premise that someone told us it is real. Under normal circumstances, assuming we are being honest, and depending on the importance of what is being told to us (like that someone is eligible to be the President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Military), we would demand corroborating proof of what someone tells us happened or did not happen.
For example, a mortgage broker who wants to procure a mortgage for an applicant can either confirm with corroborating evidence (obtaining and examining reliable documents, interviewing people who may have pertinent information, or personally examining conditions alleged by the applicant to be true or not true that proves the underlying information that the applicant is telling the broker) whether that person truly qualifies for the mortgage and in doing so is being honest to the employer and the community, or the broker may simply accept everything the applicant tells the broker (SAID to the broker) without confirming whether it is true because the broker is more interested in receive a quick remuneration or some other intangible benefit than in knowing what the truth is and thereby properly doing his/her job. In a system that is honest and operates in good faith, which broker do we want, the first or the second? I say in such a system because in a system that is not so, whether we demand corroborating evidence or not (whether we turn a blind eye or not) will depend upon what is personally at stake for the examiner (e.g., money, political and social power, social standing, career, etc.).
Given that you are the "Candid Blogger," I hope this information will be of some use to you in your endeavors to continue to be so.
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
For example, a mortgage broker who wants to procure a mortgage for an applicant
We're not in that example any more.
We're talking about an applicant who has been living in the house he bought with that mortgage he applied for and got. Now, you want to have him thrown out of that house.
If you haul that guy into court, he's presumed to have gotten the loan lawfully. Just as Obama is presumed to be eligible.
That's why YOUR evidence has to be pretty good. More than hunches. More than deliberate misreadings of Wong Kim Ark. More than lies about travel bans. You need ACTUAL, REAL, EVIDENCE, which you simply do not have!
Then Barack should regularly "pay his proof" like a mortgage-holder has to make his payments each month. The presidency nor a mortgage are any gift, and either should be taken away if the recipient is unqualified.
Why can't Barack's forged photoshop COLB be introduced into evidence AS a forged document? Then wouldn't "he" have to prove that it's legitimate evidence?
Posted on behalf of JustOnePeople of Country First Forum:
Hi Mario,
I just sent you the information I just found for SC Law for Primary Election Ballots it was revised 6/19/07 SC R108, S99
He had to be Certified as eligible no later than noon on November 1st,2007 to be in the SC Primary Elections, held on February 3,2008. On this site it says he was on the ballot. Here is the website I found on the SC Primary Elections.
Who certified him in 2007? The DNC didn’t do it until 8/28/08. This is something you may wish to look into for your lawsuit. Comments from you about this would be welcome.
Greg,
You have got to be kidding me. Is that the best you can do to respond to my comment.
First, you make absolutely no sense. Your analogy has no logical connection to the point of my comment. Simply stated, you have missed my whole point.
Second, do you have some truth machine, talking about "lies" on travel bans. Dr. Conspiracy and people like you are so fixated on that travel ban. Ok, we will say that it was not wise for a Christian American to travel to Pakistan in 1981 given that the country just some years earlier had suffered a military coup, it was under marital law, it was a dangerous place for Americans to visit, and the visa there was only good for 30 days. Why do you not address the real issues rather than parsing words. And by the way, if you know so much about Obama, why don't you tell me with what passport Obama traveled to Pakistan and for how long did he stay there?
Third, I guess my reading of Wong Kim Ark has your dander. In the law, the parties always present the law to suit their own purpose. I am doing no different from what you are doing. The court decides who is right. My point is a very simple one-Justice Gray declared Wong a "citizen of the United States," not a "natural born Citizen." Justice Gray acknowledged the distinction between the two types of citizens.
Fourth, talking about "deliberate misreadings," you attempt to excise "natural born" from and add "of the United States" to Article II's "natural born Citizen" clause so that it reads the same way the Fourteenth Amendment reads, "citizens of the United States. But do you not think that we would have heard something from the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment that what they were doing was going to so drastically impact Article II. We should have heard from them that they were amending the Constituion by redefining Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause through the Fourteenth Amendment. That surely would have been a strange undertaking since the purpose of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, in part, was to allow blacks to be “citizens.” Tell me whether you are able to find any mention of Article II in the Congressional debates on the 14th Amendment. You can even get your Dr. Conspiracy colleagues to help you out a bit on this one.
Mario --
Isn't the phrase 'lied on your application,' a major reason you might get in trouble -- maybe with your employer, with your mortgage lender?
In such a dispute, who has the burden of proof? The liar, or the victim(s) of the lie?
To me, this is the crux of the case against Obama.
Mario:
Greg and smrstrauss are both Obots (aka Flying Monkeys) from the Conspiro website as can been seen by their odd interpretation of many Constitutional things,
Perhaps they've never read the Constitution as they certainly have little understanding of it.
Keep up your good work and I think it will eventuyally help us to get a proper formal legal definition of the NBC clause. It might even help SCOTUS revisit the WKA fiasco.
Both your analysis and the comments here are educational and enjoyed greatly, my thanks! There seems also an assumption that Obama has provided the daCOLB but I've not see the chain-of-evidence listed as to how daCOLB came to be printed, delivered, scanned and posted. How can anyone pass this image file off as evidence given its strange lack of origin and officials in HI refusal to confirm its authenticity? Curiouser and curiouser.
JayJay,
I believe you are correct. These Obots travel in troupes, descend on a blog like the plague, and simply try and post the same old obfuscations over and over again to try and confuse people, scroll blogs, and waste time and try to engage the blog owners and moderators into fruitless discussion with them of the same old false arguments. They are classic internet trolls. But also, some are pros and some are well trained, clever but devious psychologists trying to manipulate people minds, imo. These folks are probably screwed up themselves which is why they chose their field. But for fun and games they go online to try and screw up other people. These mind manipulators have recycled the same phony arguments 100s of times already in various blogs. And they keep trying here. When I'm on moderator duty in this blog, I just delete them. Copies are kept and then Mario can review them if he chooses to, and can pick and choose items from those I have deleted if he wants to answer them. But in my opinion, they are not worth time of day and most violate one or more the rules of the blog, i.e., "disinformation campaigns", etc.
Charles
There has never been a legitimate "chain of evidence" for the online forged COLB.
The simplest denial of its existence is that one cannot even receive a duplicate from Hawaii of what's already been released on factcheck.
Factcheck said it held/touched it (ooh, wow), info from what is from now twice publicly spanked-for-lying factcheck.org (which had to retract its fabricated and non-fact-checked information it put out -- Donofrio cornered them handily), the same factcheck.org owned by Annenberg for whom Obama worked for 5 years with terrorist Billy Ayers developing brainwashing socialist programs for youth...THAT factcheck.
Hawaii has NEVER said that Obama was even born there:
Director Fukino never affirmed that Obama was born in Honolulu in 1961. What she affirmed was, " I have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."
Fukino only says she saw the document -- she never, ever said what was on it.
The online COLB was discredited by Ms. Lines and Dr. Polarik. Obama has spent millions and abused DOJ lawywer and taxpayer dollars and (FEC) illegally used campaign dollars to not show a $12 birth certificate (actually free, I'll pay for it!). Obama's California lawyer, Fredric Woocher, who was named "Southern California Super Lawyer of 2009" and who gets $600 per hour (claims he's on the case pro bono) is working Keyes vs. California and to prevent the release the president's records from Occidental College which witnesses state show he went as a foreign student on foreign student grants.
From theobamafile.com/re:apuzzo---
"The obvious question must be asked: If Obama has an original "long form" birth certificate issued on the day of his birth by the state of Hawaii, why would he also have a "Certification of Live Birth"?
It would not be necessary.
Barack Obama was asked if he was eligible to become president under the Article II ‘natural born’ eligibility clause. Obama masked the truth by posting a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth (COLB). His supporters declared him a natural born citizen under the 14th Amendment and the issue was pushed back into the realm of conspiracy theories.
Upon further investigation, the mask of the C.O.L.B. started to be more and more revealing of the original 1961 certificate, made much of by Hawaii’s Governor Lingle and the state’s Department of Health official, Dr. Fukino, as more probably a Dept. of Health document and not a hospital long form. [See my recent post on the Hollister dismissal in which I quoted Endnote 12 of Mario Apuzzo's Kerchner et al vs. Obama et al case. Apuzzo's jurisprudence of challenging prima facie evidence is brilliant. If Obama was trying to promote his Hawaiian native born status, he would have willingly posted a hospital certificate as solid, best evidence. A C.O.L.B. is labeled as only prima facie evidence; the validity of its information open to inspection by a proper Hawaiian court venue.
If the C.O.L.B. referenced document was not a hospital birth certificate, what was it? Under Hawaiian statute, specifically §338-5,[7] it is compulsory for the Dept. of Health to register a newborn child of a Hawaiian resident, even if no documentation of place and time of birth is presented. Only the word of one parent is required by law.
If the hidden 1961 certificate is a §338-5 form, face down like a card in a poker game, the $800,000 Barack Obama ponied up to prevent its public release means Obama is not just bluffing, but covering up perjury and other violations of election law.
In the end, a §338-5 compulsory registration will be more probative of the direct testimony evidence of Obama’s Kenyan birth,[8] than of his claimed Hawaiian birth."
Speaking of "unconstitutional"...
Obama has accepted to be President of the UN Security council, a Title granted by multiple foreign nations.
Congress never approved of this. He will speak and sit nearby Qadaffi and Achmedinejad.
Isn't he, in being effectively in total open defiance of the Constitution, entirely circumventing the document which he swore to uphold? Or did Roberts give him another secret cute oath?
If he so blatantly and openly (not that being a British citizen isn't blatant and open too but that needs to go to court to "prove" it's unconstitutional) violates the Constitution...what then?
If the Kenyan BC possessor should come to be charged with a violation of USC 18 1. 47. S1028 Fraud and related activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information a4. knowingly possesses an identification document (other than one issued lawfully for the use of the possessor), authentication feature, or a false identification document, with the intent such document or feature be used to defraud the United States. , will there be a defense by the defendant that the government must prove that document is indeed false? Would an "act to defraud" be the public display of such a document stating it is a contract between Obama and Kenya?
Can this guy get arrested today?
To Candid Blogger,
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
It scares me spitless that Ozero is chairing the UN Security Council. But as a legal matter, it is just a committee chairmanship for a few days. I don't see how it is possibly illegal or unconstitutional. Can any of you wise folks enlighten me?
Carlyle:
from theobamafile.com
.""
Oh, come on. That is parsing words to the point of being ridiculous. Normally the US Ambassador to the UN would assume such chairmanship, in turn, with other countries. All that logic applies to him as well. This argument is very weak - - -
My analogy has no connection to the point of your comment? You're arguing that a mortgage applicant has to prove his bona fides and I'm saying that if someone wants to challenge a mortgage holder they have the burden to disprove their bona fides.
But do you not think that we would have heard something from the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment that what they were doing was going to so drastically impact Article II.
Really? You don't seem to think that the writers of the Constitution would have bothered themselves to write down that they were changing the meaning of natural born from what it had meant since the 1300s.
The 14th Amendment was declaratory of the Common Law - that those born here are citizens - natural born citizens. Wong Kim recognizes only two types of citizen - natural born and naturalized.
It was required because Dred Scott attempted to say that some people born in the United States were less than fully citizens.
I did not argue that a mortgage applicant has to prove his bona fides. You still do not get it. You are reading burden of proof into what I wrote because that is the new mantra and cling word since Judge Land's pronouncement. My point is about the mortgage broker turning a blind eye to reality, not about proving that the mortgage is not valid.
It appears from your answer that you did not find anything in the debates on the 14th Amendment that shows that the framers were intending to amend Article II. Next time, do not answer my question with one of your questions. Answer my question first, then ask your question.
It is irrelevant to our Constitution what "natural born subject" meant in England since the 1300s. The Founders simply were not interested. They looked at new ideas and had new ideals for the new nation. Why would they look to the nation against which they just fought and won a revolution? They looked to great minds like Locke, Vattel, Montesquieu, Grotius, Beccaria, Pufendorf, and Vattel, Vattel and his, The Law of Nations, was their favorite. Too bad that American historians have hid Vattel and denied him his place in American history. But those who look into things a bit more deeply find him and can see the impact that he had on the Founders and the making of the new America.
That the 14th Amendment may be declaratory of the Common Law does not mean anything for our purposes because for Presidential eligiblity we need to know what is a "natural born Citizen" under Article II, not what is a "citizen of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. We already know that the "citizens of the United States" were simply grandfathered in Article II to be President. But that category no longer has any relevancy. Today, you have got to be an Aricle II "natural born citizen" if you want to be eligible to be President.
You are mistaken that Wong Kim Ark only recognized "natural born" and naturalized citizens. You left out Justice Grays holding that Wong was a "citizen of the United States." Hence, Wong Kim Ark recognized "citizen of the United States, "natural born citizen," and naturalized citizen.
Dred Scott was about blacks not being able to be citizens at all, not about "some people born in the United States were less than fully [sic] citizens." I know what you are trying to do. You want to say that bad and mean Apuzzo wants to make Obama someone "less than fully [sic] citizen[]." Apuzzo is trying to take us back to Dred Scott. Is demagoguery and intellectual dishonesty all that you have?
BIRTHERS!
REQUEST NEW FEC RULE REQUIRING CANDIDATE
ORIGINAL LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
11 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Chapter 1, Subchapter A
Section 111.4
COMPLAINTS
[2 U.S.C. Section 437g(a)(1)]
(a) Any person who believes that a violation of any statute or
regulation over which the Commission has jurisdiction has occurred
or is about to occur may file a complaint in writing to the
General Counsel, Federal Election Commission, 999 E Street,
NW., Washington, DC 20463. If possible, three (3) copies
should be submitted.
(b) A complaint shall comply with the following:
(1) It shall provide the full name and address of the complainant ; and
(2) The contents of the complaint shall be sworn to and signed in the
presence of a notary public and shall be notarized.
The Federal Election Commission oversees all the money spent
in campaigns for federal office.
11 CFR Ch. 1 Part 101 Section 101.2 CANDIDATE AS AGENT
OF AUTHORIZED COMMITEE [2 U.S.C. Section 432(e)(2)]
QUESTION: BECAUSE THE CANDIDATE IS THE AUTHORIZED
AGENT OF THE COMMITTEE, THEN, THEREFORE,
SHOULD
THE DUTIES OF THE FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION
INCLUDE DETERMINING IF EACH CANDIDATE FOR
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS IN FACT A
NATURAL BORN CITIZEN by providing their original
long form birth certificate?
11 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Ch. 1, Subchapter B
Part 200
PETITIONS FOR RULEMAKING
11 CFR Ch.1, SubCh. B, Section 200.2 PROCEDURAL
REQUIREMENTS
(a) ANY INTERESTED PERSON MAY FILE WITH THE COMMISSION
A WRITTEN PETITION FOR THE ISSUANCE, AMENDMENT, OR
REPEAL OF A RULE IMPLEMENTING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING
STATUTES:
(1) The Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, as amended, 2 U.S.C. 431 identitify of this or her principal;
(2) Identify itself as a PETITION for the ISSUANCE, AMENDMENT, OR REPEAL of a rule;
(3) Identify the specific section(s) of the regulations to be affected;
(4) Set forthe the factual and legal grounds on which the petitioner relies,
in support of the proposed action; and
(5) Be addressed and submitted to the
FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION, OFFICE OF THE GENERAL COUNSEL,
999 E STREET, NW., WASHINGTON, DC 20463.
(c) The petition may include draft regulatory language that would effectuate
the petitionser's proposal.
(d) The Commission may, in its discretion, treat a document that fails to
conform to the format requirements of paragraph (b) of this section as a basis for a
sua sponte rulemaking. For example, the Commission may consider whether to
intitiate a rulemaking project addressing issues raised in an advisory opinion request
submitted under 11 CFR 112.1 or in a complaint filed under 11 CFR 111.4. However, the
Commission need not follow the procedures of 11 CFR 200.3 in these instances.
Obamas Certificate of Live Birth data wasn't "Accepted" it was only "Filed".
Obamas Certificate of Live Birth says:
Date filed by Registrar August 8th 1961
A normal Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth says: "Date Accepted by State Registrar"
"
Therefore Obama has produced no officially accepted proof of birth in Hawaii.
Judge Simandle should be informed. |
Leon.”’
Introduction
For many Americans, the world was turned upside down by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In the period leading up to the attacks, the United States had become smug and complacent in international affairs, and the American public was withdrawn from world affairs. The news media only provided minimal coverage of foreign news, and President George W. Bush became president, even though he famously floundered in response to a series of questions about foreign leaders.
Before September 11th, the United States was not accustomed to having wars fought on its own soil and having civilians put in jeopardy. Americans had been taught that the United States' distance from the war-zone battlefields and the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans naturally protected the country. Unfortunately, that belief was elementary and wrong. The terrorist attacks on September 11th represented the first time a foreign adversary attacked the United States mainland since the War of 1812. The most recent attack on American soil had occurred at Hawaii's Pearl Harbor during World War II. Until September 11th, these events seemed far away, involving our then-distant possession of Hawaii and targeting our military forces, not civilians. American confidence was bolstered by the fact that the United States had “won” the Cold War without being attacked on our shores.
On September 11th, Americans were confronted with how terrorism had gone global. The United States fights today's wars with advanced technologies such as precision bombs, yet the terrorists who attacked the United States used conventional methods in unconventional ways. In doing so they overcame American military superiority. They enrolled in American flight schools to train themselves, and used American planes as guided missiles. It was as if the terrorists were trying to cripple the United States in one fell swoop. One plane attempted to take out the United States militarily by attacking the Pentagon; two planes destroyed the World Trade Center Towers in an attempt to cripple the United States' financial capability. If not for Todd Beamer and others on Flight 93, the hijackers might have taken out the United States' seat of government; it is speculated that the plane that crashed in rural Pennsylvania was headed either for the White House or the United States Capitol.
The United States has become much less complacent since September 11th. Americans were outraged with the terrorist attacks, and that outrage was magnified by the fact that Osama bin Laden, the alleged mastermind of the attacks, is not a traditional adversary--he is not the leader of another superpower or even another country. Although he has reportedly operated from bases in Afghanistan, he allegedly has a vast network that transverses state Bin Laden attacked the United States on a shoestring budget. It is estimated that the entire September 11th plot, including flight lessons, cost as little as $200,000. Finally, bin Laden and the other nineteen alleged hijackers all had brown skin. Their dark complexions are impacting U.S. foreign policy, U.S domestic policy including racial profiling, and the media's influence on the public.
This Article explores, from a critical race theory perspective, the impact that the media have had on our society since the September 11th attacks. Part I explains critical race theory with respect to racial profiling in the United States.
Parts II and III explore racial profiling prior to September 11th and related media coverage.
Part IV applies critical race theory to pre-September 11th racial profiling. Part V examines how pre-September 11th racial profiling patterns enabled nineteen hijackers to escape detection. Part VI further examines the impact of September 11th on the racial profiling practices introduced in Part I, and how public discourse about the phenomenon has changed. Further, in contrast to the Article's review of pre-September 11th racial profiling media coverage,
Part VII examines the media's impact on racial profiling practices after September 11th.
Part VIII reviews narrative accounts of individuals alleged to have engaged terrorist acts since September 11th, and Part IX examines the media coverage of post-September 11th terrorists. The Article concludes that the media have a powerful influence in shaping public opinion in the aftermath of September 11th.
I. A Critical Race Theory Approach
The United States has made substantial progress in race relations. Many doors that were previously closed are now presumably open to people, irrespective of race. In the early and mid-part of the 20th Century, segregation, discrimination and openly verbalized expressions of prejudice were perfectly acceptable. Since the Civil Rights Movement, American norms have shifted to embrace the ideal of a colorblind society. Survey results show that the vast majority of white Americans believe in equal and non-discriminatory treatment towards people of color in education, employment and housing. The country has adopted the rhetoric of Dr. Martin Luther King's message to Americans to judge each other by “the content of our character not by the color of our skin.” These changing norms have had a very powerful effect on American society, but they are only norms. Have all Americans really internalized them? Probably not.
In The Id, The Ego, and Equal Protection: Reckoning with Unconscious Racism, Professor Charles R. Lawrence III explores unconscious racism. He posited that American society reaches certain negative stereotypes about African Americans while teaching whites that it is socially unacceptable to hold racist thoughts. Like many repressed thoughts and feelings, these negative stereotypes manifest themselves in many ways. For example, when addressing a group of Republican operatives, Nancy Reagan said that she wished her husband Ronald Reagan could be there to “see all these beautiful white people.” When challenged by the media on this issue, Reagan's Illinois campaign manager defended Mrs. Reagan by explaining, “she was talking to her husband about the white snow and that's how she got mixed up.”
For those who have not internalized the norm of colorblindness, “the norm functions as an external constraint, shaping their behavior to the extent they feel observed by those assumed to uphold the norm.” Norms are inefficacious when the behavior is unobserved. For example, a prejudiced woman interested in hiring a child-care provider may exclude all applicants that she believes are African American (based on residential address on the applicant's resume, stereotypical name, or the timbre of the applicant's voice suggesting certain stereotypical cadences). Since this woman is acting in a singular fashion before even meeting any of the applicants, she may be more likely to discriminate because she is unlikely to be discovered. However, the same woman, while serving on a work-related team to hire a subordinate, will be more cautious in discriminating; she would fear exposure as not adhering to the norm.
Norms are also inefficacious when the person who engages in the norm-breaking behavior can find a second acceptable norm to justify the breaking of the first norm. For example, with the color-blind norm, institutions espouse the rhetoric of equality, but often couple it with a requirement of an institutionally self-defined norm of merit so that a potential employee not meeting the merit standard will not be hired. The standards for merit may be set in a way that conceals violations of the colorblindness norm rather than legitimately ensuring competent performance on the job. The prejudiced woman may construct the standards of merit in a way that precludes African Americans. She will be able to stress these standards in her decision not to hire African American applicants, thus avoiding being labeled a racist. When criticized for having too few employees of color, her employer can respond, “we are not discriminating; we just can't find any qualified applicants of color.” Analogously, in our post-September 11th world, the United States has tried to adhere to its colorblind nondiscriminatory rhetoric, but this Article will show that, in some ways, the events of September 11th have allowed the norm of colorblindness to be surpassed by the norm of national security.
Race is variable and shaped by societal forces. Michael Omni and Harold Winant have written “Race is indeed a pre-eminently sociohistorical concept. Racial categories and the meaning of race are given concrete expression by the specific social relations and historical context in which they are embedded. Racial meanings have varied tremendously over time and between different societies.” In the United States, society has rigidly enforced a black/white paradigm with African Americans on the bottom and whites on top. Historically, the United States has followed the principle of hypo-descent, or, the “one-drop” rule--if a person has any African American ancestor, regardless of any white heritage, society categorizes that person's race as black, regardless of his or her appearance. In addition to black-white race integration issues, in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, race concepts of what was considered white began to change due to influence from other groups. Initially, in the United States, the term “white” encompassed only those of Anglo-Saxon ancestry. With the immigration of many people from Ireland and southern and eastern Europe, the notion of “whiteness” grudgingly expanded to include these immigrants.
In the article If It's Not Black Anymore, Why Does Darkness Cast A Longer Discriminatory Shadow than Lightness? An Investigation and Analysis of the Color Hierarchy, I posit that the black-white paradigm in the United States is transforming gradually into a dark-light paradigm. With an increase in the number of Latinos and biracial Americans, the United States' social construction of race is shifting from the exclusive provinces of black-white to the newer realm of dark-light. The article predicts that society will ultimately lump most people of color in the middle of the pyramid irrespective of race, while “unmixed” African Americans will probably stay at the bottom. People of color with lighter complexions will face discrimination of a lesser magnitude than both unmixed blacks and dark-skinned people.
Also, I reported the results of a Western New England College Survey. Seventy percent of whites surveyed said that whites discriminated more against darker-skinned African Americans than lighter-skinned African Americans. Forty-one percent of the whites surveyed also thought that whites treated darker-skinned Latinos worse than lighter-skinned ones. As immigration from Latin America and interracial marriages increase, the U.S. population will truly span from white to black, with every variation in between these two classifications. While America's recognition of racial compositions that fall “in between” white and black categories could appear to be progressive, unfortunately, because of national security concerns, social construction of race in the United States is slipping into a “white-against-everyone-else” paradigm. All people of color will be lumped together and will be suspected of being terrorists, but national origin, religion, biracial background, and appearance may soften the profile. Evidence of this is the recent government pronouncement that law enforcement believes that the next terrorist is not going to be an Arab, but an Asian or African. In addition, the racial profiling of people of color is more likely to occur because of the racial ambiguity of many of the individuals so far apprehended. How can one determine whether a person is Middle Eastern, Southeast Asian, Latino or African American? Many African Americans, for instance, have physical features similar to some alleged terrorists. Finally, this “white-against-everyone-else” paradigm is evidenced by increase in hate crimes against Arab Americans, and those people average Americans cannot distinguish from Arab Americans, like Southeast Asians and Latinos.
In the aftermath of September 11th, hostility and violence have increased towards Arab Americans and those people that average Americans have trouble distinguishing from Arab Americans, like Southeast Asians and Latinos. Since September 11th, more than 700 incidents of hate crimes against Sikhs and Muslims have occurred. President Bush has condemned these hate crimes and preached tolerance. However, a great deal of hostility and anxiety towards these groups exist in the United States.
Racial profiling all people of color makes it easier for authorities to get away with profiling because they will not have to discern the differences between and among different racial groups in the United States. The situation will be even worse if profiling is rationalized as necessary for national security; the colorblind norm could then be trumped by the national security norm. Further, it is very easy for a member of a minority group in the United States, in one fell swoop, to go from a “model minority” to public enemy number one.
II. Racial Profiling Prior to September 11th
Racial profiling is a practice of some law enforcement officers. Generally, police officers stop motorists of certain racial and ethnic backgrounds because the officers believe that members of those groups are more likely to commit certain crimes. In a 1999 Gallup poll, eighty-one percent of respondents said that they disapproved of racial profiling. Prior to September 11th, there were allegations that racial profiling took place in New Jersey and Maryland. The allegation was that primarily African American and Latino drivers were singled out on New Jersey and Maryland interstate highways for illegal searches; the ‘offense‘ is euphemistically known as “driving while black or brown.” The New Jersey State police released statistics that showed that even though African Americans comprised only sixteen percent of the drivers on the road, they constituted twenty-five percent of those stopped, and minorities generally constituted forty percent of those stopped. From 1994 to 1999, in central and southern New Jersey, African Americans and Latinos constituted over seventy percent of the drivers whose cars were searched during traffic stops. The Orlando Sentinel analyzed videotapes of the traffic stops of over 1,000 drivers and discovered that African Americans and Latinos constituted almost seventy percent of the traffic stops and eighty percent of the vehicle searches. On a stretch of Interstate 95, northeast of Baltimore, African American drivers accounted for seventeen percent of drivers, but comprised seventy percent of those stopped by police.
Of course, a person's race may be a legitimate factor to consider when attempting to identify a suspected perpetrator from a witness account. The statistics released in both New Jersey and Maryland, however, suggest that law enforcement used race as the sole factor in stopping this vastly disproportionate number of minority drivers. Race should never be the sole factor, especially in those circumstances where there is no witness identification.
The case of Brown v. City of Oneonta may be instructive. In rural, upstate New York, a seventy-seven year old white woman was attacked and could not identify the assailant because she had only seen the attacker's hand and forearm, which were black. She thought that the assailant was young based on the speed with which he crossed her room, and she said that the assailant had cut himself on his hand with a knife as they struggled. The police immediately contacted the nearby State University of New York at Oneonta, asked for a list of all black male students, and then proceeded to interview all the African American students on the list. When this search produced no suspects, the police questioned all non-white persons on the streets and inspected their hands for cuts. Although the authorities questioned more than two hundred individuals, they failed to apprehend any suspects.
The Brown court noted that a description of race and gender alone would rarely provide a reasonable suspicion justifying a police search or seizure. However, the court held that the determination of who would be questioned was based on “the legitimate classification” of a physical description given by the victim of a crime. The court affirmed the dismissal of the plaintiff's equal protection claims noting that “attempting to question every person fitting a general description--may well have a disparate impact on small minority groups in towns such as Oneonta.” The court found that, “[w]ithout additional evidence of discriminatory animus, the disparate impact of an investigation . . . is insufficient to sustain an equal protection claim.” The court acknowledged that the stop of one African American woman might “indicate the [law enforcement officers] considered race more strongly than other parts of the victim's description.” Nevertheless, the court dismissed this fact, rationalizing the stop as being just a “single incident.” Finally, the court warned, “[l]aw enforcement officials should always be cognizant of the impressions they leave on a community, lest distrust of law enforcement undermine its effectiveness.”
The Brown opinion supports the theory that society will adhere to the norm of colorblindness unless a superceding norm like safety, security, or law enforcement exists to “trump” the colorblind norm. Even though the Brown court acknowledged that the law enforcement actions at issue created a bad impression in the community, it was an insufficient basis to find that the equal protection clause was violated.
The police actions revealed in Brown were outrageous and ineffective. They made every African American male in the town a suspect. The authorities justified their approach based on the fact that small numbers of African Americans were affected. Still, the authorities never found the offender. Given the fact that the police also questioned a woman in this sweep, it appears that race was a more salient consideration than gender and age. Contrary to the court's statement, it does not seem likely that if the situation was reversed, i.e., that if a small number of whites lived near a larger black community, all whites would be questioned though one white person allegedly committed a crime. If that situation occurred, the police would probably look for additional criteria to narrow the field of suspects. As the court noted, the police tactics would have a negative effect on community relations.
A couple of months ago, CNN reported that Los Angeles Airport had been evacuated because the security screeners had inadvertently let an unscreened passenger pass through to the airline terminals. The reporter said that authorities would never be able to identify the unscreened passenger because he was white and looked like the majority of the other business travelers. As a result, authorities took the extreme measure of closing down the airport because they would have difficulty in identifying the unscreened white passenger. The authorities did not question every white passenger, suspecting that they slipped through security in an attempt to cause terrorism. In fact, the commentators were not blaming the unscreened white passenger for entering the terminal without clearance. Instead, they blamed the security screeners who tend to be low-wage workers and members of minority groups.
When racial profiling occurs, it allows law enforcement to take the easy way out, lumping all individuals of a particular race together to try to find a few perpetrators. It allows the government to inconvenience many members of a minority group for the benefit of law enforcement objectives in ways that might never be done to members of the majority.
In 1998, the United States Customs Agency changed its criteria for detaining passengers believed to be carrying contraband. The Agency had received much criticism from African American women who were disproportionately required to undergo very invasive body searches. The Agency eliminated racial and gender profiles. Instead, it implemented a “passenger analysis” system, which went beyond race and gender, and analyzed criteria rationally related to finding illegal contraband. These criteria included point of embarkation and itinerary, evidencing frequency of travel to, and length of time spent, in certain places. As a result of these new criteria, the Customs Bureau conducted seventy percent fewer searches, yet increased its yield of illegal contraband by twenty-five percent.
III. The Media Coverage of Racial Profiling Prior to September 11th
In 1992, the Boston Globe published an article entitled Guilty . . . of Being Black; Black Men Say Success Doesn't Save Them from Being Suspected, Harassed, and Detained. In the article, several prominent African American professional men described how law enforcement authorities had racially profiled them. The list included such notables as Harvard law professor Charles Ogletree, then-Associate Attorney General of the United States Wayne Budd, then-Celtic draft pick Dee Brown, Executive Producer of Channel 5 Karl Nurse, and the executive producer of the film “Eyes on the Prize,” Henry Hampton.
Primetime Live broadcasted a segment devoted to “driving while black.” In the segment, four young African American men drove a late model Mercedes Benz equipped with a hidden camera. The young men were either college students or recent college graduates, and a family member owned the luxury car. The police allegedly stopped the car because the driver failed to signal a lane change. The hidden camera showed how the police asked the young men to leave the car while the police did a full search. A hidden microphone overheard the police state that they thought illegal drugs were contained in a carry-on case located in the trunk. The four men were eventually released after no illegal substances were found in the car. Primetime Live then went back to the intersection and showed that most drivers failed to signal when changing lanes at the same intersection. This evidence suggested that law enforcement detained the four African Americans on pretext, and that the search went beyond what was required for a traffic stop.
These examples show that before September 11th, the media wanted to demonstrate that racial profiling was both pervasive and ineffective. Even so, this coverage was often sporadic and failed to fully counteract other news coverage contributing to the creation of racial stereotypes.
IV. A Critical Race Analysis of Profiling Prior to September 11th
Prior to September 11th, the news media and society presumed that perpetrators who were racially identified (or “racialized”) as white were inherently good, and that something bad had happened to cause them to do wrong. The media asked: Was there bad parenting? Was he involved with the wrong crowd? Was he using medication that may have contributed to his behavior? In contrast, for those racialized as being of African descent, the news media and society presumed that these individuals were generally bad, ignoring the possibility of mitigating factors when examining negative behavior. Further, for those who have olive-colored complexions and are of Middle Eastern ancestry, before September 11th, the news media and society stereotyped them in one of two ways: either negatively, as possible Middle Eastern terrorists and religious fanatics, or positively, as royal family members or oil millionaires.
An illustrative example is that of Zacarius Moussaoui, the only person allegedly linked to the September 11th attacks who was apprehended prior to the execution of the attacks. Moussaoui is a French citizen of Moroccan ethnicity. He probably was racially profiled because of his African appearance. This racial profiling may help explain why he was the only person detained in advance of September 11th. He was detained on an immigration violation in August of 2001, and it has been reported that he was apprehended because he wanted to learn how to fly jetliners without learning to land. Moussaoui first attended flight school in Norman, Oklahoma; the instructors told him that he had no aptitude for flying. In Oklahoma, he was described as abrupt and argumentative, and he refused to pay the full $4,995 fee in advance, instead paying $2,500 in cash. He then moved on to the Pan American Flight school in Minnesota where he spent time on a flight simulator for a Boeing 747. Believing that this training might be used in a hijacking, an official at the flight academy tipped off the FBI in advance. The employees at the flight school felt that the FBI was slow to respond. After four to six telephone calls failed to produce an agent willing to help, the caller felt compelled to warn that a Boeing 747 could be used as a bomb.
Moussaoui was arrested on August 16, 2001 for an immigration violation. The Washington Post described why the Minnesota flight school was suspicious of Moussaoui--Moussaoui paid the school's $6,300 fee in cash, he was woefully lacking in flight skills, and he was evasive and belligerent when asked about his background. In one example, when an employee noted Moussaoui's place of birth and greeted him in French, Moussaoui refused to respond, stating that he was from the Middle East rather than France. Moussaoui wanted to fly a 747 but had little experience in doing so. The news media also reported that he only wanted to learn to steer an aircraft--not learn to take off or land. However, according to his flight instructor, Clancy Prevost, Moussaoui never said any of these things. According to Prevost, he became suspicious when Moussaoui “flushed” when asked whether he was a Muslim.
Even more fascinating than Moussaoui's specific case, is the information surrounding the nineteen hijackers responsible for the September 11th attacks. Specifically, more than sufficient grounds existed to believe that the hijackers were planning to use their flight training for terrorist activities, unrelated to the hijackers' ethnic background. The nineteen hijackers were alleged, undercover sleeper agents, attempting to blend into American society until September 11, 2001. However, they got into trouble while living in the United States; for example, both Mohamed Atta and Marwan Yusef Mohammed al-Shehhi were thrown out of Jones Flying Service School for unprofessional behavior and instructors complained about their attitude.
For Moussaoui, there was no countervailing positive stereotype to overcome his blackness. The media negatively stereotyped people of African descent as bad actors. This dynamic made it easy for those who encountered Moussaoui to suspect him of wrongdoing. His bad attitude was enough for people to be suspicious that he was a possible terrorist. Although not expressly a part of the media's coverage, one might wonder whether Moussaoui's paying cash for his flying lessons raised questions in the minds of the flight school as to the source of his funding. In contrast, the nineteen hijackers benefited from the “oil millionaire” stereotype and, thus, their source of funds was not questioned. This contrast shows why racial profiling is ineffective--it allowed detainment of one possible culprit who seemed to be only tangentially involved in the hijacking, while nineteen key players were able to escape detection and cause considerable harm.
V. How the September 11th Hijackers Escaped Detection
Although the September 11th hijackers had engaged in behavior similar to Moussaoui's, none of them were detained before the attacks. Upon examining the suspicious behavior they engaged in, and the way they were perceived, it appears that each of these men escaped detection because a positive stereotype counteracted the negative stereotype that could have been applied to them. Despite the common profiling of Arabs as religious fanatics and terrorists, the more positive image of the wealthy or royal Arab balanced against this negative stereotype, preventing flags from being raised about the activities of these men.
A. Mohamed al-Amir Awad al-Sayed Atta
The FBI believes that Mohamed Atta was aboard the first plane to crash into the World Trade Center. He was an Egyptian citizen who had been in the United States taking flying lessons at the Huffman Flight School in Florida. One of Atta's fellow students in flight school thought that he was from a royal family. The owner of the school described Atta as having a bad attitude. When Atta applied for a government loan, he threatened a Department of Agriculture official and praised Osama bin Laden. The official said, “I didn't know who Osama bin Laden was. . . . He could have been a character in ‘Star Wars' for all I knew.” In early 2001, Atta was stopped by a deputy sheriff while driving, probably because he did not have a proper United States driver's license. He was ordered to appear in court on May 28, 2001, and because he failed to appear, a bench warrant was issued for his arrest. No effort was ever made to find him. In fact, police subsequently stopped Atta for speeding in Delray Beach, but because the two police departments' computers did not interface. The officers released Atta--despite the fact he was a “wanted man.”
B. Saeed Alghamdi
Saeed Alghamdi is alleged to have been one of the hijackers on United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed into a Pennsylvania field. He is believed to be a Saudi Arabian citizen. The travel agent who sold Alghamdi and fellow hijacker Marwan Yusef Mohammed al-Shehhi their one-way tickets from Newark, New Jersey, stated that they “paid cash and didn't wait for the change.” The FBI believed that Alghamdi used the social security number of a Vermont woman who had been dead for thirty years and the address of a Florida Air Force base that had no record of him staying there. Nevertheless, he was never arrested or accused of criminal activity.
While residing in Florida, Alghamdi had a heated argument with two of his downstairs neighbors. He banged on the neighbor's door to retrieve a towel. The neighbor said that she slammed the door, locked it, and activated her burglar alarm. She said Alghamdi was polite the next few times she saw him.
C. Marwan Yusef Mohammed al-Shehhi
Marwan Al-Shehhi was Mohamed Atta's cousin, raised in the United Arab Emirates and trained at the same aviation school in Florida. FBI officials believe he was aboard the plane that crashed into the World Trade Center towers. In one instance before September 11th, after drinking heavily, Atta, al-Shehhi, and a third man got into an altercation at a bar in Florida. At the bar, Atta claimed that he was a pilot for American Airlines. The altercation arose when the waitress serving the men asked them to pay their bill. The men considered the request an insult, believing it was an insinuation that they could not afford to pay.
D. Ziad Jarrahi
Ziad Jarrahi was raised in Lebanon, the son of a wealthy bank manager who frequently flew to the United States. The FBI suspects that Jarrahi was aboard the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. The FBI also believes that on September 11th Jarrahi met with three other alleged hijackers, Saeed Alghamdi, Ahmed Alhaznawi, and Ahmed Alnami, and flew from Florida to Newark to hijack United Airlines Flight 93. Even though the FBI alleges that he carried a knife and box cutter, he was still able to slip through security at Newark Airport.
E. Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi
Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi were the hijackers who crashed American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. These men used their real names to obtain bank accounts and driver's licenses. Although the CIA had linked Almihdhar to one of the suspected bombers of the USS Cole, the State Department issued him a new visa when his expired. Almihdhar and Alhazmi met frequently with five of the other nineteen hijackers. In December 1999, U.S. Intelligence intercepted conversations on a Yemeni phone that mentioned the names Almihdhar and Alhazmi and linked them to al Qaeda. In January 2000, they attended an al Qaeda meeting in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malaysian authorities reported this meeting to the CIA with photos and full names. Since the CIA did not tell the State Department to put either man on a “watch list,” both returned to the United States without incident on January 15, 2000.
Flight instructor Rick Garza reported that he gave both men about six classes on the ground before taking them up in the air. He said that “[t]hey were only interested in flying big jets,” and he did not think that they had the “aptitude” for flying. In fact, he referred to them as “Dumb and Dumber.” Alhazmi failed to graduate from two flight schools in California. In April 2001, Alhazmi was pulled over for speeding in Oklahoma. The state trooper ran Alhazmi's driver's license through the computer but found no evidence of wrongdoing. The trooper issued two tickets totaling $138 and let Alhazmi go.
Later, the FBI's Arizona and Minnesota field offices warned of suspicious activities by Middle Eastern men at flight schools. The CIA failed to follow up information regarding a meeting of al Qaeda operatives in Kuala Lumpur, which included two of the alleged September 11th hijackers. Still, nine of the nineteen hijackers were pulled aside for special airport security screenings on the morning of September 11th. Two of the hijackers were singled out for problems with their identification, while the others' bags were searched for explosives and unauthorized weapons as a result of a computerized screening process. On September 11th, an unidentified man called police because he had gotten into a screaming match with three agitated Arab men over a Logan Airport parking space. It is believed that the three men were some of the hijackers.
The nineteen hijackers might also have been discovered by their financial transactions. A suspected al Qaeda middleman in the Persian Gulf transferred $325,000 into the bank accounts of the nineteen alleged hijackers without raising any red flags at the banks. The hijackers may have escaped detention because many of the transactions were below $10,000. By receiving wire transfers directly into commercial bank accounts, they were able to avoid the banks' reporting requirements. Some of the alleged hijackers used fake social security numbers when opening their accounts, but the banks never questioned or scrutinized those numbers. If the banks had realized that the accounts had been opened with phony social security numbers, they would have been required to file reports of suspicious activity to Federal regulators.
VI. Racial Profiling and September 11th
Prior to September 11th, most people acknowledged that racial profiling was wrong if it took place, but public discourse denied its occurrence. Attorney General John Ashcroft said that “[t]here should be no loopholes or safe harbors for racial profiling. Official discrimination of this sort is wrong and unconstitutional no matter what the context.” Since September 11th, public sentiment has changed concerning racial profiling--at least when it comes to Arab Americans. In a recent Gallup Poll, fifty-eight percent of the respondents said that they supported “requiring Arabs, including those who are United States citizens, to undergo special, more intensive security checks before boarding planes in the United States.” Many commentators also changed their minds and were more hesitant about prohibiting racial profiling. Some commentators now suggest that racial profiling is a legitimate police tactic. Some have said that random checking is “neither efficient nor effective.” Instead, they advocate a “focused system of profiling passengers who are deemed likelier to pose risk, using screeners trained to scrutinize travelers and their behavior.”
Since September 11th, the Middle Eastern terrorist stereotype has completely overpowered the oil millionaire stereotype. As a result, Arabs have been “darkened” in the mind of American public. In fact, since many white Americans often are unable to distinguish between people of color of different racial and ethnic ancestries, this terrorist stereotype has even expanded to include Southeast Asians of Indian and Pakistani ethnicity. Therefore, these groups have metamorphosed from so-called oil millionaires and model minorities into being Arab terrorists.
Airline officials and law enforcement officials have racially profiled some African American men as possible Middle Eastern terrorists. A federal investigation of possible terrorist cells in the Pacific Northwest is focused on a group of African American converts to Islam. Federal authorities charged six individuals in Portland, Oregon with conspiring to join al Qaeda and the Taliban, despite the fact that none of the six had ever traveled to Afghanistan. Five of the six individuals are American-born African Americans. In addition, law enforcement officials have stated that they believe that the next al Qaeda terrorists are likely to come from Africa or Asia. Some African American men have reported that they believe that they are being profiled as Middle Eastern terrorists. Abdullah Abu Kusomo, an African American man, reported that he “is almost always searched when he travels” because of his name.
The recent link between the drug trade and terrorism provides other opportunities for law enforcement authorities to profile African Americans. Almost one-third (twelve of twenty-eight) of the groups designated as terrorist organizations by the United States Department of State allegedly traffic in illegal drugs. The drug money reportedly funds terrorist organizations. Attorney General John Ashcroft stated: “[f]ollowing extraordinary collaboration and information-sharing between agencies, this list has been developed, and what it reveals is shocking.” Ashcroft indicated that al Qaeda was on this list. Moreover, the link between terrorism and the drug trade is being etched in the public mind. The White House Office of National Drug Control Policy issued a series of advertisements that link illicit drugs to terrorism. This link between terrorism and drug use is worrisome because the war on drugs has often been a war against poor people and African Americans. African Americans are a small minority of illegal drug users, but a large majority of people sentenced for drug offenses.
Since September 11th, racial profiling has been the subject of jokes. For instance, shortly after September 11th, the Doonesbury comic strip ran a series of strips highlighting America's anxiety about racial profiling of Arab Americans. In one strip, the title character Mike Doonesbury is seated in an airplane next to an Arab American passenger. While waiting for takeoff, the Arab American passenger talks on his cell phone “praising Allah,” stating that he “used the cash sent,” and discussing his car rental and motel. Doonesbury “profiles” the Arab American passenger and panics. Once he learns that his fellow passenger is actually just a guy who sells palm pilots from Tacoma, Washington, Doonesbury relaxes. In another strip, an African American passenger on the same plane asks Doonesbury: “Hey, buddy. What's the story on the guy you're sitting with?” Doonesbury responds: “He's a salesman from Tacoma. He's flying home to see his mother.” The African American passenger responds: “Oh . . . that's a relief! Well, not exactly a relief, just . . . well you know.” Doonesbury responds to the African American passenger: “Okay, so this must be weird for you.” The African American passenger finally responds: “Yeah, I don't need this kind of irony in my life.” Saturday Night Live ran a weekend update segment in which cast member Tracy Morgan, who is black, pleaded to the police to “Shake me down! Shake me down!”
Some of the humor is designed to defuse a difficult issue, but some of it is designed to suggest that racial profiling is acceptable and that African Americans no longer have to worry about it. People of African descent must to be wary of these blandishments for several reasons. First, profiling of people of African descent has now probably expanded to include crimes of terror. Zacarius Moussaoui has more of an African appearance than the nineteen alleged perpetrators, and he was the only person apprehended prior to the September 11th attacks, even though there were significant bad acts by the nineteen alleged perpetrators to make others suspicious. Second, since September 11th, the first persons captured for suspected terrorist plots in the United States are members of racial groups that have a long been the targets of racial profiling--a Puerto Rican, Jose Padilla, and a person of African descent, Richard Reid.
American citizens have been deputized to help ferret out future terrorist activities. Since September 11th, the United States has constantly been on alert. The Director of Homeland Security developed a color coding system to alert Americans to dangers and the nation has been at code yellow for high risk ever since. Americans have received unspecified warnings of possible attacks. Americans have been told that the next attack could be on the United States coasts, that tractor-trailer trucks could be involved, and that terrorists might rent apartments for the purpose of conducting terrorist attacks. Further, Americans were told that the July 4th holiday might precipitate more attacks. Yet, the authorities have not told Americans when, where, or how a future attack is supposed to take place. The purpose of the warnings is to put us on alert so that the public can help identify suspicious individuals or circumstances. Notwithstanding the vagueness of these warnings, all Americans are supposed to remain vigilant and on guard.
The deputizing of the American public will lead to further racial profiling. Since the American public generally believes that those with dark skin are more likely to be violent than whites, they are likely to look upon anyone with non-white skin as a possible terrorist.
Some have argued that, since all of the September 11th hijackers were Arabs, racial profiling of this group would aid in the finding of future terrorists. However, more than three million Arab-Americans live in the United States. If all 1,200 persons detainees were terrorists and they were the only terrorists, then less than a fraction of one percent of Arab Americans are terrorists while the other ninety-nine percent of all Arab Americans are not terrorists. But of the 1,200 suspected al Qaeda sympathizers rounded up by the FBI after September 11th, all but seventy-four were released. Of the seventy-four, thirty-eight are likely to be deported for immigration violations and criminal offenses not related to terrorism. By using race as the sole criteria, law enforcement officials detained many innocent people, and so far have failed to find many so-called sleeper agents.
According to the guidelines of the Transportation Security Administration, detailed searches are conducted at random. The random screenings take place at the security checkpoint and, later, at the gate. An additional level of scrutiny is geared specifically to the passenger's actions. For example, did the passenger buy a one-way ticket? Did the passenger pay for her ticket in cash? Did the passenger change her itinerary within seventy-two hours of flight? Law enforcement officials say that profiling of individuals based on their race or country of origin is prohibited. But Hussein Ibish, spokesman for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, has said that he believes ethnic profiling is taking place. He said that he has asked the Federal government to collect statistics on the number of Arabs being searched under its current policy, and it has declined.
Unlike the case with profiling of African Americans, many white Americans are now willing to admit that they engage in racial profiling of Arab Americans. Since we are all deputized, some profiling is taking place by average everyday citizens. In Newsweek's My Turn column, author Lori Hope reported that, while her plane was waiting on the tarmac for take off, she noticed a suspicious-looking man. She described the man as “olive-skinned, black-haired, and clean shaven, with a blanket covering his legs and feet.” She reported that she thought his use of a blanket “was strange because I felt so warm. No one else was using a blanket.” Ms. Hope then reported the “suspicious-looking” man to the flight attendants. The head flight attendant told the author that the suspicious passenger was removed from the plane, that “he seemed depressed, but also very nervous.” Finally the head flight attendant told her: “You did the right thing. Once we're in the air, it's too late.” Understandably, Americans are frightened and anxious about future terrorist activities, but there are lots of reasons the “suspicious-looking” man may have needed a blanket. One might ask whether she would have done the same thing if a white man had his legs covered with a blanket?
Airline personnel, not working in a law enforcement capacity, are also profiling passengers. On Christmas Day, an Arab American secret service agent, Walied Shater, was scheduled to fly from Baltimore to Dallas for his assignment protecting President Bush. As a federal agent carrying a gun, Shater completed the required E2 form, necessary for him to carry a gun onto the plane. However, the secret service agent's original flight was canceled. Unable to find a blank E2 form, the gate agent crossed out the flight and seat number from the canceled flight and inserted those for the rebooked flight. While Shater was asked to leave the plane for additional security clearance, the flight attendant discovered a book entitled “The Crusades Through Arab Eyes” that Shater left in his seat. The flight attendants told the pilot that they were “concerned” about the passenger and his book with “Arabic-style print.” The pilot found the E2 form incomplete and illegible. He went to talk to the passenger who allegedly made “loud [and] abusive comments.” The pilot telephoned airline security to have the secret service agent removed from the plane. The pilot said in a statement: “With the lives of the . . . passengers and crew [at stake], I . . . edge[d] toward the side of safety.”
The government is also profiling individuals of Middle Eastern ancestry. In November 2001, the Department of Justice started to interview “more than 5,000 people nationwide--the majority Middle Eastern men ages eighteen to thirty-three years old who came here within the last two years on nonimmigrant visas in search of information on terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda.” In March of 2002, the Justice Department decided to interview 3,000 additional men, ages eighteen to forty-six, who also entered the United States on nonimmigrant visas, between October 2001 and February 2002, from countries with an al Qaeda presence. Although the Justice Department said that these men were not suspected of crimes, they “might, either wittingly or unwittingly, be in the same circles, communities, or social groups as those engaged in terrorist activities.” The local United States Attorney sent letters to these individuals that stated:
Your name was brought to our attention because, among other things, you came to Michigan on a visa from a country where there are groups that support, advocate, or finance international terrorism. We have no reason to believe that you are, in any way, associated with terrorist activities. Nevertheless, you may know something that could be helpful in our efforts.
The interviews are described as voluntary, but an Immigration and Naturalization Service memorandum suggests that some of those interviewed might be kept in custody without bond if the “investigators [develop] an interest in them.” Some police departments refused to assist the Department of Justice in this endeavor because they believed that it was illegal racial profiling. However, seventy-nine percent of the American public approved this program. Some commentators have been equivocal concerning whether the policy is illegal racial profiling.
VII. How the Media Coverage of September 11th Affected Racial Profiling
The attacks on the World Trade Center were aired live on network television. One to two months after the September 11th attacks, eleven percent of New Yorkers reported symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, which was almost three times the national average. A study found that the occurrence of post-traumatic stress disorder was highest in those that watched the most television and was even higher than for those who lost a family member, friend, or co-worker. The coverage profoundly affected all Americans. One must ask “why” ? Was it because broadcasters repeatedly replayed the image of the planes hitting the towers and the towers collapsing? Was it because most broadcast and cable companies dropped advertising and entertainment programs and substituted non-stop news coverage of the terrorist attacks? It was because the coverage was live, unpackaged and unfiltered. The major networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC--were without commercial interruption for almost ninety hours. The September 11th television coverage surpassed the coverage of the Kennedy Assassination by about twenty hours. In addition, many of the specialized cable networks like MTV, VH1, TNN, FX, Fox, and ESPN also aired news feed from their network affiliates.
The effect of the attacks and the news coverage was profound. Many citizens of the United States and the world, not solely the people directly affected by the attacks, felt the fear and panic. Americans were fearful of attack from any direction. There were an unprecedented number of false bomb threats to government buildings and landmarks. Many facilities were repeatedly evacuated right after the September 11th attack. Americans may always have had these false bomb threats, but now they were televised live. Moreover, the government was taking each one very seriously. In addition, several people were killed and many others injured by the still unsolved anthrax attacks that followed the airplane attacks.
Images from New York, the posters of missing persons and makeshift memorials, saddened the American people. Family members appeared on television hoping that their loved ones would be found alive. The death toll was announced many times daily. And countless people experienced it all through television as if they were there. The events of September 11th demonstrate the power of the television and related medium.
In FCC v. Pacifica, the Supreme Court noted that radio and television broadcasting were different than other media because of their omnipresence and their intrusive quality. The Court observed that, without warning, the broadcast audience might be trapped into seeing or hearing an unwanted message before the audience member realizes what she is seeing or hearing. The broadcast coverage of September 11th was the ultimate illustration of the rationale of Pacifica.
When the United States first proceeded against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in an effort to find and capture bin Laden, the government restricted the American media from the war zone. The news media had to rely exclusively on film footage from Al Jazeera, which is an independent, twenty-four hour, Arab satellite television station. Many newscasters apologized to viewers for pictures and interviews that might appear to be slanted against the United States. In addition, Al Jazeera broadcast taped interviews of bin Laden. For instance, bin Laden appeared on Al Jazeera denouncing the United States' military campaign in Afghanistan as “unjust” and “ferocious.”
Bin Laden's use of the media was novel. It was the first time that an American adversary had such personal and intimate access to American television screens. He specifically articulated his side of the story. The leaders of our foreign adversaries in past conflicts were largely unseen on American television. Bin Laden, however, the man allegedly responsible for killing over three thousand Americans, was on television speaking directly to an American audience. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice asked that the major television networks refrain from broadcasting tapes of bin Laden, because the Bush administration was concerned that he might be sending encoded messages to sleeper agents around the world.
The power of Al Jazeera highlights the global impact of broadcast television. Political leaders now realize that foreign news broadcasts shape opinions across international boundaries. To deal with this new global reality, the Bush administration first attempted to force the Government of Qatar, which funds Al Jazeera, to control its content. Secretary of State Colin Powell met with the Emir of Qatar and to express concern about the “inflammatory rhetoric” used on Al Jazeera. When this tactic failed, the Bush administration had several senior officials--Powell, National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld-- appear as guests on Al Jazeera talk shows. In addition, the Bush administration arranged for Christopher Ross, former ambassador to Syria and fluent in Arabic, to appear on Al Jazeera. Ambassador Ross had two hours of live airtime to respond to bin Laden, and told the audience that “[t]he terrorists are falsifying facts and history.” The White House invited Al Jazeera to cover an event at the White House where the Red Cross praised American children for raising money for to aid children in Afghanistan. The Bush administration also created an office to better disseminate positive information about the United States to the Arab world.
The attacks of September 11th demonstrate the importance and influence of the media. One result of post-September 11th media is that people of color are now vulnerable to being profiled in a broader scope. Now a black man may no longer be just the “savage Black Brute;” he may be a possible Middle Eastern Terrorist. Media frequently broadcast negative stereotypes of African Americans and other minorities. These stereotypical images lead the majorities of the American public to have negative views of African Americans and other minorities.
The Report of President Clinton's Initiative on Race indicated that 52.8% of the population associated violence with African Americans, 42.8% found violence as an attribute of Latinos, 21.3% found violence an attribute of Asian Americans, whereas only 18.8% of the population associated whites with violence. A study by the Annenberg School of Communication at the University of Pennsylvania showed that even though black-on-white and brown-on-white crime constitutes a very small proportion of crimes committed, Philadelphia broadcasters were most likely to report and highlight black-on-white crimes. Another study reported that even though crime rates declined drastically in the 1990s, the national broadcasters' coverage of crime increased 721%.
Other studies show that African American suspects are more likely than whites to have their photographs broadcast on the news and are more likely to be shown as suspects, i.e., handcuffed, escorted by police, or with a “mug shot” displayed. Whites are usually not shown in police restraints, and either no photograph is shown or a photography-studio-quality photograph is shown, like a high school yearbook photograph. Distorted images like these convey the message that African Americans and Latinos are to be feared. Since September 11th, it may seem as though the media have conveyed the message that all people from the Middle East are terrorists and that almost all people of color should be feared.
VIII. Terrorism After September 11th
All but seventy-four of the Middle Eastern individuals who were detained after September 11th have been released. Despite the heightened sense of security and the deputizing of the American public, the first alleged terrorists apprehended in the mainland U.S. before they could carry out their plans are men of African or Latino descent. Richard Reid, of African descent, is the alleged “Shoe Bomber” who attempted to blow up an airplane destined for the United States with explosives concealed in his shoes. Jose Padilla, of Latino descent, was arrested for allegedly conspiring to build and detonate a radioactive “dirty bomb.” Neither of these men is of Arab ethnicity, although they both are alleged to be Islamic extremists. Despite the jokes about racial profiling, law enforcement officials seem to be most successful in singling out and detaining those from groups with which they have had a long experience of profiling.
Since September 11th, two other individuals have been identified as terrorists, John Walker Lindh and Charles Bishop. Lindh is a white American man who was discovered fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan. He was apprehended and prosecuted for conspiracy to kill his fellow Americans, to commit terrorism, and to support terrorists. Bishop was a mixed-race American teenager who flew a small plane into a Florida office building. Although, like Lindh, Bishop sympathized with bin Laden, no one was aware of his sympathy until after his terrorist act, in which he took only one life--his own. It is worth noting that, under different circumstances, Bishop might have done much more harm.
A. Terrorist Activities and Related Persons
1. Richard Reid
Richard Reid is a twenty-eight year old British citizen, the son of a mixed-race Jamaican man and a white British woman. When first apprehended, the authorities racially misidentified him. They thought that his British passport was “bogus” and that he appeared to be of “Middle Eastern descent.” His racial ambiguity seems to have cut two ways. First, his coloration and hair texture probably led some people to believe that he was not of African descent, and was instead Middle Eastern, which may have led to his initial detention. On the other hand, Reid's British citizenship and British accent “whitened” him, and almost allowed him to get away with his attempt.
Reid's plans to board a flight from Paris to Miami scheduled for December 21, 2001 were foiled because security officials investigated him and delayed his departure. He missed his flight when his “unkept appearance” and the fact that “he had no bags” caused the authorities to subject him to extensive questioning. Authorities probably thought that he was Middle Eastern, but he fit a legitimate, non-racial profile because he was not checking any luggage. The next day security officials reportedly recognized him and let him pass unimpeded to the waiting airplane. The officials probably realized he was the British citizen that they had questioned earlier and felt that they did not need to do a second comprehensive check.
On an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami, Reid allegedly attempted to light a fuse protruding from his shoe. The flight attendants and passengers spotted Reid acting strangely and then suddenly holding a match to his feet. Passengers and crewmembers stopped him before he could light the fuse. Given his complexion and hair texture, the other passengers probably more readily noticed his activities. Allegedly, when the flight attendant confronted him, he bit her. The passengers on the plane grabbed Reid, took away his shoes, tied him with belts, sedated him with Valium, and watched him until the plane landed. The plane was diverted to Boston, where Reid is currently incarcerated.
2. Jose Padilla
Jose Padilla, a.k.a. Abdullah al Muhajir, is a thirty-one-year-old Puerto Rican man who currently is being held indefinitely by the federal government for allegedly having taken part in a conspiracy to manufacture a “dirty bomb.” He was born in Brooklyn, New York to Catholic natives of Puerto Rico. On May 8, 2002, law enforcement officials apprehended Padilla because they said that he was involved in a plot to explode a radioactive dirty bomb. United States officials say they have “no proof that al Qaeda has yet developed a radioactive dirty bomb.” In addition, they do not know of any other conspirators in the bombing plot in the Unites States. The United States first held Padilla as a material witness for one month. He was transferred to military custody on President Bush's orders and is being held indefinitely as a “military combatant.” No plans exist to charge Padilla with a crime in criminal or military court. It is believed that al Qaeda leaders tapped Padilla for the dirty bomb plot because he had a U.S. passport and would be able to travel freely throughout the United States.
3. John Walker Lindh
John Walker Lindh has been called “the American Taliban.” He is a white American citizen who fought with the Taliban in Afghanistan and was captured by American soldiers. He faced charges that he conspired to kill his fellow Americans, supported terrorists, and knew three months prior to September 11th that Osama bin Laden would send suicide squads to the United States. He personally met with Osama bin Laden and trained at al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. When Lindh was first captured in Afghanistan, the authorities were uncertain of his racial and national identity. By speaking English, it probably became more obvious that Lindh was a white American. When John Walker Lindh was indicted in January, Attorney General John Ashcroft said that Lindh's case was a “critical case in the nation's fight against terrorism.” In addition, Attorney General Ashcroft described Lindh as a “fanatical follower of the Taliban [who] never wavered in his allegiance to terrorism.”
4. Charles Bishop
Bishop was the fifteen-year-old boy who flew a small plane into an office building in Tampa, Florida. Before he took off, he left a handwritten note expressing sympathy for Osama bin Laden. Bishop arrived at the airfield and was handed his scheduled flight lessons and a key to the airplane loaded with forty gallons of fuel. He was supposed to wait for the flight instructor to finish another lesson. Before anyone noticed, Bishop flew the plane without waiting for the flight instructor to join him. The plane flew over restricted airspace of U.S. Central command, which directs military actions in Afghanistan, and flew 1,000 feet above Southwest flight 2229 with 114 passengers and five crewmembers on board. North American Aerospace Defense Command sent two F-15s from Homestead Air Reserve Base to intercept. The pilot of a Coast Guard helicopter used hand signals to try to get Bishop to land, but Bishop failed to respond. Twelve minutes after takeoff, Bishop's plane struck the twenty-eighth floor of a forty-two-story office building scattering office furniture in a law office. Just an hour earlier an attorney had been at his desk in that corner office.
B. Evaluation of Terrorist Attacks and Related Persons
As an observer, it is interesting to consider the race and ethnicity of those currently incarcerated for crimes committed pursuant to the war on terrorism. Richard Reid almost got away with his plan because his biracial background and British citizenship probably whitened him enough to get him on the plane. The first person captured in advance of an alleged plot is Jose Padilla who is of Latino ancestry. Both Bishop and Lindh were able to actively participate in terrorist activities because they were either white or appeared white, and were therefore not considered suspects. The use of racial profiling as a police technique always raises the question of whether the authorities have apprehended the right individuals. As Professors Gross and Livingston have said, “[t]here is no serious crime that is committed by all, or most, or even a large fraction of the members of any racial group.” Howard University Law Professor Frank Wu has written that “[r]acial profiling operates inexorably towards its extreme.” Professor Wu postulates as more efforts are directed exclusively at one racial community, wrongdoers from other communities will escape detection. Given the fact that, national security concerns currently trump color blindness, ineffective racial profiling is likely to continue.
IX. Media Coverage of Post-September 11th Perpetrators
The media coverage after September 11th was generally consistent with prior coverage. When faced with a white perpetrator, the media asked for explanations for why the perpetrator went wrong, searching for justifications for the perpetrator's behavior. If the perpetrator was of African or Latino descent, the individuals often were described as “inherently evil.” The media generally has failed to consider any extenuating circumstances to explain the wrongdoing of an African American or Latino suspect. Since September 11th, the only apparent change has been that the coverage of Arab Americans has shifted to focus almost exclusively on the moral depravity of the “jihad,” or “Holy War.” As with the coverage of African Americans, there is currently no mitigating factor that is considered or evaluated in the coverage of an Arab American perpetrator.
This Section analyzes the media coverage of the four men involved in post-September 11th terrorist activities, as well as the media coverage of Zacarius Moussaoui, because most of the media attention surrounding his case occurred after September 11th. The media coverage of all of these men has been complicated by racial ambiguity, as each of these individuals was racially misidentified. It was first thought that Charles Bishop was white, and media coverage was sympathetic. When it was discovered that he was one-half Syrian, his coverage became less favorable. John Walker Lindh was probably initially thought to be Afghan. This belief was reinforced by initial images of him with a darkened face, beard, and long dark hair. When he cut his hair and washed his face, it became clear that he was a white American, at which point his coverage and treatment became much more favorable. Although Reid and Moussaoui are of African descent, they are citizens of Great Britain and France respectively. To make matters even more complicated, Richard Reid is biracial. In terms of the color hierarchy, both Reid and Moussaoui have been somewhat whitened due to their citizenship in countries that are strong U.S. allies. However, their Islamic faith has been portrayed as somewhat fanatical. Lastly, Jose Padilla, who is an American citizen of Puerto Rican ancestry, has been racialized in the most usual way, as a “street thug.”
A. Charles Bishop
The initial coverage of Bishop's attack in Tampa, like most coverage of those who are racialized as “white,” focused on his personal story. The newspaper accounts asked how did this happen? Where did his parents go wrong in raising him? The news media described Bishop as a “troubled young man,” “a loner” from a broken family. He was estranged from his father. His parents tried to commit suicide during their teenage romance because they were unable to marry. He was an honor student who enjoyed classical music. His mother described him in a New York Post article as, “[caring] about the world his generation was inheriting and [taking] special interest in environmental-impact issues, animal rights and endangered-species laws,” and politics.”
Bishop also was described as patriotic. The media described him as “a former flag bearer at school assemblies who wanted to join the Air Force.” They discussed the boy's patriotic traits and quoted one teacher as saying, “I can picture him singing 'My Country 'Tis of Thee,' bellowing it out.” Other teachers were quoted as stating, “[h]e told me he wanted to join the United States Air Force because he wanted to do something good for his country. He was a good boy.” The media accounts discussed how other teachers said he managed a literary magazine, entered essay contests run by the Daughters of the American Revolution, and helped plan bake sales and food drives as a student council member. One account speculated that his conduct could be the result of a powerful acne medicine called Accutane that he was taking, which has been linked to depression and suicide. His mother's lawyer was quoted as stating, “As a result of taking the drug, Mr. Bishop became severely psychotic and lost touch with reality, consequently flying into the side of a building.”
For most of those who are racialized as white, the news media presume that white alleged perpetrators are good and that any wrongdoing must be the result of tragic external circumstances. Charles Bishop was a young man who caused significant property damage and could have caused significant loss of human life by his actions, yet the media initially sought to forgive his behavior only because he was racialized as “one of their own.”
Bishop's suicide note, praising bin Laden, however, raised questions about the media's assumptions about his background. It was soon discovered that Bishop's father's family was of Syrian decent. After her divorce, Bishop's mother changed his birth-given surname from “Bishara” to “Bishop.” It was also reported that she changed their surnames during the Gulf War because she feared an anti-Arab backlash. It was at that point that the news media speculated that Bishop's ethnicity might have had something to do with his behavior. One of his teachers discussed that she was strict about preventing discriminatory conduct towards any of her students based on their ethnic background. Bishop's grandfather acknowledged that he was of Arabic ancestry, but that his father had come to the United States in the first part of the Twentieth century and they, therefore, considered themselves to be Americans.
B. John Walker Lindh
Once the media ascertained that Lindh was white, it proceeded to seek explanations for what went wrong with him. A New York Times Editorial stated:
John Walker Lindh is my son's age. He made a mistake. But he is not a Kim Philby or an Aldrich Ames, men who consciously betrayed their countries. He is a young man who was searching for truth and walked into a virulent form of fundamentalist Islam. Staunch patriots want him executed. Lesser zealots want him imprisoned for life. And those of us not strangers to the confusion of youth view him as if he were our own son and wonder if justice has enough room for common sense.
As portrayed by the media, Lindh was from a broken home, his parents had been overly permissive in his upbringing, and he had attended an alternative high school in California where he had been able to shape his own studies. Commentators noted that the family sent him to a therapist when a family pet died. He dropped out of high school at age sixteen. He had a history of identifying with other racial and ethnic groups. In high school, he read the autobiography of Malcolm X, and he reportedly identified with the story. Lindh listened to rap music and once pretended to be African American in an e-mail. He converted to Islam, and adopted the Arabic name Suleyman. At seventeen, he decided to leave home and go to Yemen. Lindh briefly came back home to the United States, then traveled back to Pakistan where he attended an Islamic school. The school specialized in teaching the Koran and was known for providing soldiers to the Taliban in Afghanistan. President Bush even described Lindh as “some misguided Marin County hot-tubber” and as “a ‘poor fellow’ who was ‘misled.”’
When he was first captured, the media continuously showed Lindh's photograph with dirty long hair, a beard, and a dirty-almost-black face. Once he returned to the United States, Lindh sported a close-cropped haircut and was otherwise well scrubbed. At this point, he started to look like a suburban teenager, and his coverage became more sympathetic. Newsweek reported that to get a conviction of Lindh, the “prosecutors would at least have to show that [Walker] agreed with someone, somewhere and somehow, to kill Americans or aid al Qaeda. It now appears that the evidence on these counts . . . is somewhere between slim and none.” The story suggested that Lindh's confession was not clear-cut because the government's notes indicated that he was fighting for the Taliban and not al Qaeda. In addition, reports surfaced that the FBI apparently violated its own internal guidelines for interrogations by failing to have Lindh sign the statement or to have the confession recorded by video or audio tape.
The coup de grace and turning point for Lindh was the broadcast of his photograph while in military custody in Afghanistan. The photograph showed a naked, blindfolded, and bound Lindh. It was reported that he was kept in this condition for three days in a closed, metal shipping container. According to the media, Lindh was released from these conditions once he waived his rights to a lawyer and made a more damning confession; surgeons removed a bullet lodged in his leg only after he renounced his legal rights and signed the new confession. In court papers, Lindh's lawyers claimed that he pleaded with U.S. troops, “[p]lease don't kill me,” when they took him to a U.S. military base.
On July 15, 2002, in a surprise deal, Lindh pleaded guilty to two felony charges and agreed to serve twenty years in prison. Providing services to the Taliban was a felony because President Bush and former President Clinton, by executive order, had declared it a terrorist organization. Lindh admitted his guilt, saying “I provided services as a soldier to the Taliban last year and in the course of doing so, I carried a rifle and two grenades.” The New York Times described Walker Lindh's appearance: “Mr. Lindh appeared wan and gangly. His dark hair was cropped short, and he looked more like a teenager one might see at a suburban mall than the unkempt, wild-eyed and bearded Taliban soldier seen in news photographs taken shortly after his capture.” The prosecutors described the deal “an important victory for the people of the United States in the battle against terrorism,” and “a tough sentence and an appropriate punishment.”
Lindh's father, Frank Lindh, was quoted as saying “President Bush would be proud to have him as a son. He's a really good kid.” He also compared his son to Nelson Mandela. He said, “I told John when he came back from Afghanistan . . . that Nelson Mandela served 26 years in prison. He's a good man like John. I told John that he needed to be prepared for something along those lines.”
C. Comparison of the Media Coverage of Bishop and Lindh
In comparing the media coverage of Charles Bishop and John Walker Lindh, the ways in which media coverage was altered to mirror perceived changes in the individuals' racial identities is striking. Charles Bishop, who was first thought to be white, had the typical “what went wrong with his upbringing?” coverage until it was discovered that he was half-Syrian. At that time, his coverage became less favorable, and his ethnicity became sufficient explanation for his crime. In contrast, John Walker Lindh was initially described as the American Taliban who fought against the United States in Afghanistan. The media repeatedly showed a photograph of Lindh with long dark hair, a beard, and a face darkened by dirt. He was dubbed “The American Taliban,” and his darkened features made him appear to be something other than a white American. Once the media started showing pictures of Lindh with shortened hair and a clean face, it became clear that he was white. At that point, his coverage became more favorable. Some members of the media empathized with him and began to compare him to their children. The media coverage of Lindh's plea agreement was also very tame. There was hardly any controversy surrounding his plea agreement even though he was the first and most visible person to date to be sentenced. Given the nature of his offense, one would think more controversy and outrage might have resulted from his twenty-year sentence. Some would have argued that the sentence is too short or too long, or that Lindh should have been condemned to die. Because of the intense media interest in the events of September 11th, one might have expected that the coverage of Lindh's plea bargain would be more extensive. Apparently, the American public was not troubled by or interested in a plea bargain involving a young, white, middle-class American, who fought as a Taliban warrior.
D. Zacarius Moussaoui
The media continue to describe Zacarius Moussaoui as the alleged 20th hijacker, despite the fact that a different man, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, has publicly claimed that he was meant to be the 20th hijacker. Moussaoui now faces six counts of conspiracy (four of them carry the death penalty). When announcing Moussaoui's indictment, Attorney General John Ashcroft said: “[a]l Qaeda will now meet the justice it abhors and the judgment it fears.” He also called the indictment “a chronicle of evil.” Even though Moussaoui's life may be at stake, the media have portrayed the upcoming trial as one of public entertainment. The New York Daily News quoted Court TV as stating, “[a]ny camera coverage is better than no camera coverage . . . and full camera coverage is better for the American public.”
Rather than ask what went wrong during Zacarius Moussaoui's upbringing, the media portrayed him as angry, crazy, evil, foreign, stupid, and difficult. It was reported that the FBI found evidence that Moussaoui received $14,000 in cash from an al Qaeda operative who organized the September 11th attack, in Hamburg, Germany. After Moussaoui's detention for an immigration violation, France reportedly told United States authorities that he was a “known Islamic militant.” It was also reported that when he flew over the ruins of the World Trade Center, Moussaoui allegedly yelled “F--k you! F--k you, America!”
After meeting with Moussaoui for two hours, a court-appointed psychiatrist found that he did not appear to have a “major mental disease or defect” and “to a reasonable degree of medical certainty knowingly and voluntarily waive[d] his right to counsel.” Moussaoui fired his court-appointed lawyers and said to the court: “America, I'm ready to fight you . . . even with both hands tied behind my back.” In court, he reportedly “rolled his eyes” while his lawyers were speaking and distanced himself from them at the defense table. He said that he “would never contact his [court-appointed] lawyers” because he believed that they were “part of a plot against him.” He called his lawyers the “Death Team.” He reportedly requested a Muslim lawyer because he said that the court-appointed lawyers were not following his instructions. Moussaoui has been prevented from handpicking Charles Freeman, a Muslim, as his legal adviser. Instead, Judge Brinkema ordered the court-appointed lawyers to remain on stand-by in case they were needed, and encouraged Moussaoui to work with Muslim lawyer, Sadiq Reza, who teaches at New York Law School. Moussaoui has used Professor Reza as a go-between with his court-appointed lawyers. Moussaoui has called his court-appointed lawyers “blood suckers,” and has said that “[a]s protection [from] any pig disease there will be no more unsanitized contact with the affected horde of standby lawyers . . . .”
On July 18, 2002, after a new indictment was issued designed to allow Moussaoui to receive the death penalty, Judge Brinkema asked him how he would like to plead. At that time, Moussaoui tried to enter a “pure plea,” in which he acknowledged participation in a terrorist group since 1995. The judge described the defendant as “confused,” and told him only a plea of guilty or innocent was acceptable. Judge Brinkema announced that she would enter a plea of “not guilty” for him, despite Moussaoui's insistence that he fully understood the implications of his plea. Indeed, he acknowledged that he was a member of al Qaeda, had joined in terrorist attacks, and pledged loyalty to Osama bin Laden. The media reported that Moussaoui said, “I, Moussaoui Zacarius, in the interests to preserve life, enter with full conscience a plea of guilty, because I have knowledge and participated in al Qaeda.” At the same time, he contended that he was not directly involved in the September 11th terrorist plot. It has been reported that he described himself as a “slave to Allah,” and he has denounced the American justice system.
Both the New York Times and the New York Daily News quoted Moussaoui's court-appointed lawyers as saying: “have we figured out yet that he's insane?” The lawyers were described as laughing with disbelief as Moussaoui left the hearing. When questioned about a report that Chechen fighters had rejected Moussaoui's services, a member of the defense team mused, “[w]ho wants him around? He brought nothing to the table. He's trouble.” Moussaoui claimed that his court-appointed counsel were “trying to kill him to keep him from revealing” undisclosed secrets. He also accused Judge Brinkema of conspiracy with Federal government to execute him. He said that the letter “B” in the acronym “FBI” stood for “Brinkema.” He called her the “Death Judge.” Moussaoui accused Judge Brinkema of preparing him “for the gas chamber,” exclaiming to her: “[t]his is an outrageous prosecution . . . . This is a parody . . . .” He also reportedly prayed for the destruction of America and Israel.
Judge Brinkema gave Moussaoui one week to reconsider his guilty plea. On July 25, 2002 Moussaoui withdrew his guilty plea, stating: “[d]ictated by my obligation to my creator Allah, and to save my life, I withdraw my guilty plea.” He told the judge “you want to tie me, to link me to certain facts that will guarantee my death.” He maintained that, although he may have had some association with the September 11th hijackers, he had “nothing to do with the events of September 11th.”
From the outset, the media's depiction of Moussaoui has been very negative. He is described as bearded, wearing a green jumpsuit with the word “prisoner” written on the back. The New York Daily News described Moussaoui as a “diminutive French-born Moroccan frequently pip[ing] up with strange interjections in a strangled Inspector Clouseau accent that prompt[s] titters in the audience.” The New York Post noted Moussaoui's “ungrammatical English.” The New York Daily News has also portrayed Moussaoui as “a small, husky man with an unruly black beard.”
The descriptions of his behavior since he has been incarcerated have been even worse. The New York Daily News described Moussaoui as “wacky.” It reported that he “has filed numerous legal briefs that can only be described as nutty.” Also, it noted that most of Moussaoui's sixty motions to Judge Brinkema since June 14th “read like Saturday Night Live skits.” In contrast, the Washington Post has described his motions as “autobiographical tract[s] written in legalese . . . [that] . . . are sometimes rambling and discursive, yet with threads of logic and flashes of brilliance.” The New York Post detailed Moussaoui as a “bizarre-behaving French Moroccan.” He has been called “abrasive.” He also has been described as “fidget[ing] in his chair, strok[ing] his beard, and mumbl[ing] to himself.”
Moussaoui's mother blames radical fundamentalists for her son's situation. His brother, Abd Samar, claimed that, while living in London, Moussaoui became “racist and anti-white.” Moussaoui's mother reportedly last saw her son in 1996. She was denied a chance to visit her son in prison, and the New York Daily News reported, “[t]he FBI insisted an agent monitor the conversation.” His mother has been reported as saying that her son “is not prepared to defend himself.” She has said: “[m]y son is incapable of making decisions after months of imprisonment.” She has “asked the French government to send a lawyer to handle her son's case.” She reportedly wept when he entered the court for a hearing. It was reported that the United States tried to get Moussaoui's mother to cooperate with the prosecution.
Since his incarceration, it has been reported that “Moussaoui can't have batteries, or pencils, or any hot tea or coffee.” He has been held in solitary confinement, under severe security conditions. He cannot talk to other prisoners, all his phone conversations are taped and he must speak English with his lawyers--unless he uses an FBI translator. All visitors, including his court-appointed attorneys, must undergo FBI clearance. When prison officials found hardened food in his Alexandria, Virginia jail cell, they labeled it contraband because they believed it could be used as a weapon.”
Media coverage of Moussaoui highlights an aspect of his identity that intersects race, national origin, and religion. The media point out that he is a French citizen of Moroccan ancestry. Reporters probably raise his ancestry in a manner of explanation because most people think that French citizens are white, and Moussaoui's picture looks black. In addition, the media attention also highlights Moussaoui's North African ancestry to make the connection, albeit loosely, to the Middle East.
Despite the fact that Ramzi bin al-Shibh claims to be the “20th Hijacker,” reporters insist on calling Moussaoui the “20th Hijacker,” apparently having made their own judgment as to his guilt. Like the coverage of people of African descent, the media fail to present any evidence that would rationalize or explain his alleged criminal activity. The media have failed to give the whole picture of the Moussaoui situation. Although he has a master's degree from Southbank University in international business, there has been scant coverage of what Moussaoui did for employment or education before coming to the United States. When his education is mentioned, Southbank University is almost dismissed as a trade school. Judge Brinkema reportedly said that Moussaoui was “smart” because he has a master's degree. However, the media's focus on his “ungrammatical English” suggests his “foreignness” and his lack of intelligence or education.
The discussion of Moussaoui's upbringing has also been limited. When it is discussed, it is used to demonstrate that he is responsible for “derailing” his family's immigrant success story. Moreover, the explanation for this “derailment” is Moussaoui's association with radical fundamentalist Islam. There has been no discussion of whether he has any prior criminal history. The fact that his prior history has not been raised suggests that he has no prior criminal record. Instead, the media tie him to his involvement with al Qaeda. While this tie is probably justifiable, the media fails to provide specific details. In addition, reporters have failed to provide balanced coverage by asking whether his membership in al Qaeda and his Islamic faith are enough to establish his guilt in conspiring to the acts of September 11th. This question should be the basis for any discussion of Moussaoui because it is the same question the jury will have to decide.
Since the media cannot latch onto a dysfunctional family or criminal past, they instead portray Moussaoui as crazy and anti-American. They suggest that he is paranoid because he thinks the judge is in cahoots with the government. He calls his court-appointed lawyers the “Death Team” and fires them because he believes that they will not properly represent him. His lawyers laugh at him in open court. Media coverage seems to suggest that Moussaoui is intentionally making a mockery of the judicial proceedings by attempting to plead guilty and then reneging on that plea. After all, he is “wacky” and “erratic” and his pleadings read like “Saturday Night Live” skits.
Importantly, the media fail to emphasize incidents that might support some of Moussaoui's contentions. He was, for example, denied the assistance of the lawyer of his choosing, the Muslim Charles Freeman. And he is the only September 11th defendant whose indictment allows the death penalty. There has been only slight reference and brief mention of a family history of mental illness. Similarly, few attempts have been made to explain that Moussaoui is not a lawyer, that legal proceedings can be very complicated, and that a person who is not a lawyer might have difficulty with understanding the proceedings. Even if Moussaoui understood the nature of legal proceedings, he is a French citizen, and France has a different legal system than the United States.
The media portray Moussaoui's mother as powerless. She cannot visit him in prison unless her conversations are monitored. She is described to have been weeping when he appeared in court. She has to petition the French government in an attempt to help her son. In contrast, Lindh's father procured cracker-jack lawyers to represent his son and appeared on many television news programs making the case for his son. Moussaoui's mother is depicted as emotionally distant from her son since she has not seen him since 1996. However, no effort has been made to explore how commonplace that may be in many immigrant communities wherein relatives are overseas, and money is tight.
E. Richard Reid
The media have labeled Richard Reid, a mixed-race British citizen, the “shoe-bomber.” He has been charged with attempted murder and faces a maximum sentence of five life terms in prison. Reid allegedly wore silver and black boots packed with high-tech explosives that would have destroyed a jetliner with 197 people aboard. The bomb was specially constructed without wires or metal, allowing it to pass without detection through airport security. The metal detectors and scanning machines for checked luggage are not sophisticated enough to identify plastic explosives.
The media asked the question: how did “a onetime petty thief with no job and no fixed address somehow manage to find the resources for international travel and the know-how to make a sophisticated explosive that fooled even the stringent Paris airport security check?” Authorities speculated that Reid trained with al Qaeda and was following orders. Investigators are trying to link him to al Qaeda terror suspects based in Europe. European authorities speculated that Reid stayed at a house in Belgium and met with someone named “The Engineer.” It is believed that “The Engineer” is an expert in making explosives and designed and built the shoe bombs. Inside the boots, investigators found a strand of hair and palm prints that were not Reid's.
On December 20, 2001, Richard Reid wrote an e-mail to his mother stating “[w]hat I am doing is part of the ongoing war between Islam and disbelief, (and as such it is a duty upon me as a Muslim).” He also wrote:
The reason for me sending you .” Reid's white mother, Lesley Hughes, issued a statement through her lawyer: “[a]s any mother would be, she is deeply shocked and concerned about the allegations made against her son, but has no further comment to make.” Richard Reid's African Caribbean father, Robin Reid, reportedly sold his story to a British tabloid. Robin Reid was in prison when his son was born and reportedly was a distant figure in his son's life. Robin Reid acknowledged his lack of involvement in his son's life, and specifically said, “[l]ook at the terrible childhood he had . . . . Look at the father he had. I have spent 18 years in total behind bars. That can't have helped, can it? Every time he needed me, I was nowhere to be found.” Although attending a reasonably well-regarded secondary school in London, Reid dropped out of school soon after his sixteenth birthday. From 1992 to 1996, Reid was in and out of jail. He was involved in petty crime such as muggings, robberies, and shoplifting.
The Washington Post described Richard Reid as “a London pickpocket and mugger” who was a “major-league hell-raiser.” The article noted:
[h.
It was reported that Reid became attracted to a radical sect of Islam and traveled to Pakistan for training, before traveling to Israel, Egypt, and Turkey. In late December, Reid was in Paris at a cyber café sending e-mails. The owner remembers Reid as being “big” (Reid is six feet, four inches tall) and “a little bit dirty.” The Washington Post has described Reid as a “hulking, and unkempt man who weighs about 220 pounds.” The newspaper has also described him during one of his courtroom appearances as being “disheveled and clad in tan prison attire.”
Recently, the court decided Reid had been read his rights before he spoke to investigators after he was detained. At the time, Reid reportedly said “he decided to choose an American target after the United States began bombing the Taliban in Afghanistan.” He reportedly “[c]laimed to have chosen to attack an airplane because he believed an airplane attack, especially during the holiday season, would cause the American public to lose confidence in airline security and stop traveling, leading to a substantial loss of revenue which would, in turn, hurt the American economy.” At the time of his arrest, Reid also reportedly told federal agents that he would plead guilty “if you get the charges right.” Reid's lawyers contend that his alleged confession should not be admitted into evidence because he was under the influence of Valium administered by the passengers on the airplane to subdue him.
Reid has pleaded guilty to charges against him. His attorneys have explained Reid's guilty plea as an effort “to avoid publicity associated with a trial and the negative impact . . . upon his family.” Reid called the thwarted attack, “an act of war.” He said: “[b]asically, I got on the plane with the bomb . . . . Basically I got on, I tried to ignite it.” Reid attempted to get the allegations that he trained with al Qaeda removed from his indictment, but Chief Judge William G. Young rejected his request, and ordered that these charges be considered in Reid's sentencing. In response to the judge's decision, Reid stated: “yeah, I understand that and I don't care; I am a member of al Qaeda. I have pledged to Osama bin Laden, and I am an enemy of your country and I don't care. Simple and plain.”
Reid's media coverage highlights a perception of his identity that intersects race, national origin, biracial background, and religion. The media point out that he is a British citizen of biracial background. Like African American suspects, the media focus on Reid's prior record to suggest that he is bad. The stories focus on other criminal behavior by members of his family. For instance, his African-Caribbean father was imprisoned for eighteen years, and was, in fact, in prison when Reid was born. Unlike the typical coverage of African Americans, the media coverage of Reid suggests some explanation for his behavior--dysfunction in his family life because his father was emotionally unavailable to Reid. However, the stories only suggest dysfunction by his African-Caribbean father; no mention is made of his white mother's possible dysfunction. She was, after all, involved with a man who was imprisoned. In addition, his white mother was the one who raised Reid. The stories seem deferential to Reid's mother.
As noted, articles describe Reid as “a petty thief,” “a London Pickpocket and mugger,” or a “major league hell-raiser.” These depictions of Reid's criminal background seem much tamer than the usual descriptions of African American defendants who are often described as generally bad. These descriptions also seem tame given the significant direct evidence that Reid attempted to detonate a bomb on an airplane. Unlike other September 11th defendants, the media portrayed Reid's prison-conversion to Islam in a positive manner. The media described Reid as having “a strong but quiet devotion to a new faith, Islam.” It was only after this initial conversion that he fell into some radical sect. Reid, like Moussaoui, tried to plead guilty, but the media have not called Reid's actions “wacky” or “erratic.”
Reid's media coverage is somewhat atypical in comparison to other African American alleged perpetrators. It seems that the media are cognizant of his biracial heritage and, as a consequence, Reid's portrayal has been “whitened.” In addition, Reid is a citizen of Great Britain, which is perceived to be largely a white country, which has an intimate historical link to the United States. Great Britain is also one of the most reliable allies of the United States. Consequently, Reid is more advantaged on the racial hierarchy than Moussaoui. First, Reid is biracial and has a white mother. Second, Reid's direct African ancestors are from a more distant generation than Moussaoui's. Reid's father was from Jamaica, but Moussaoui's parents were from Morocco. Finally, Reid is a British citizen, and Great Britain is culturally more similar to the United States than France. As such, Reid's media portrayal is more “white” than Moussaoui.
Although Reid's media coverage may have been whitened, it has not prevented the media from relying on some old stereotypes. For instance, the media portrayed Reid as dumb. They called him an al Qaeda “B-team” member, suggesting that he is not as smart as the September 11th hijackers. He may not be smart, but he did get on the plane and almost accomplished his plan to blow it up. In addition, the media emphasize his physicality. Stories discuss that he is large, in that he is six feet, four inches tall. This description is only relevant so as to emphasize the “heroic” effort of the passengers who subdued him on the plane.
F. Jose Padilla
The media have portrayed Jose Padilla as a street thug, and a terrorist who deserves to be held and deprived of civil rights and civil liberties. The media have reported on his past criminal record and have made judgments about it. In 1983 he pleaded guilty to robbery and was given probation. Two years later, he was convicted of two counts of murder, aggravated battery, armed robbery and attempted armed robbery--he was sentenced to a juvenile detention facility for two and one-half years. In October 1991, Padilla was arrested for pulling a gun and firing it at a driver during a traffic dispute. He returned to jail and was released in 1992. He also completed a substance abuse program.
President Bush has said, “[t]his guy Padilla's a bad guy, and he is where he needs to be--detained.” President Bush also said, “[w]e have a man detained who is a threat to the country and that thanks to the vigilance of our intelligence gathering and law enforcement he is now off the streets, where he should be . . . .” Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stated, “[o]ur interest is not in trying and punishing him. Our interest is in finding out what he knows.” Attorney General Ashcroft said “[t]he national security interests of the United States required that [Padilla] be detained by the Defense Department as an enemy combatant.” He described Padilla as an “al Qaeda operative [who] was planning future terrorist attacks on innocent American civilians in the United States.” By contrast, Padilla's lawyer points out “the evidence linking Padilla to the alleged ‘dirty bomb’ plot is weak at best.”
The New York Post reported that “Al Mujahir isn't some messed-up Marin County kid like John Walker Lindh. He's a hardened criminal named Jose Padilla who was born in Brooklyn and raised in Chicago. He converted to Islam in prison during a stay in a Florida prison.” The New York Post called him “a former Chicago street gangster and ex-con.” The New York Daily News reported that Padilla was supposedly fooled by an on-line parody about how to build an H-bomb. The reporter speculated that since “al Qaeda has been scattered by the United States bombing of Afghanistan, it is now relying on its 'B-team' of would-be terrorists like the alleged 'shoe-bomber' Richard Reid.
The media also reported on Padilla's family. They noted Padilla moved from Brooklyn to Chicago when he was four years old. His mother is reported to have had five children by two different men. His biological father died when he was young. Padilla's mother, Estella, has had no contact with Padilla since 1998. Reportedly, she worried that he joined a cult. After his detainment, his mother posted a note on the door to her home stating, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” A sister, Delma Padilla, has said that Padilla “was coming to the Unites States to visit his kids--not to plan a massive terrorist attack . . . .” Former neighbors indicated that they found it “hard to believe” that he was a terrorist. “He was obedient, respectful, he did his chores, watched television, he was just your average kid . . . .”
As discussed, Padilla is Puerto Rican; he comes from a racial and ethnic group that the media have historically stereotyped. Consequently, unlike Moussaoui and Reid, the media invoke the stereotype of a “brown brute.” The media portray Padilla as a hardcore street thug not entitled to constitutional protections. They compare him unfavorably to Lindh, who is just “messed up,” whereas Padilla is a “hardened criminal.” President Bush called Padilla a “bad guy.” Like other African Americans or Latinos, the media reported extensively on his past criminal background and made judgments about it. However, the media fail to explain how being a former street thug is related to being an international terrorist.
Padilla's family history is also discussed but not as a means to rationalize or explain his behavior as was done in the case of Walker Lindh or initially for Bishop--it is discussed as a means of showing his dysfunction. His biological father died when he was very young, and his mother had five children by two different men. His mother is portrayed as being distant and having very little contact with him. Padilla is also portrayed as being on al Qaeda's “B-team” thereby suggesting that he, like Reid, is stupid. He was supposedly fooled by an on-line parody on how to make a bomb. Unlike Lindh's father, Padilla's mother is portrayed as helpless. His mother left a note on the door of her home pleading that “her family be left alone.”
The media depictions of Charles Bishop, John Walker Lindh, Zacarius Moussaoui, Richard Reid, and Jose Padilla have varied in accordance with their perceived whiteness and darkness. To the extent an individual's identity was racially ambiguous, the coverage was tempered by his nation of origin and his biracial status. The coverage also varied based upon where these men fell on the spectrum of appearance, race, place of origin, and religion. Once it became clear that Lindh was white and, when the media thought that Bishop was white, they received the most favorable coverage. Reid's coverage seems tempered by the circumstances of his arrest and his alleged crime. His better-than-expected coverage is probably the result of his biracial background and British citizenship. Moussaoui's coverage is bad but not as bad as it could be. Again, his treatment by the media is probably the result of his status as a French citizen, but of Moroccan ancestry. Padilla, who is an American Puerto Rican, has suffered under the worst coverage because he conforms to a known American stereotype. These stereotypes and the media coverage related to them have an effect on how all people of color are viewed.
Conclusion
The events of September 11th raise many interesting issues as to racial profiling, the media, and society. First, due to national security concerns, the United States may be slipping into a “white-against-everyone-else” paradigm, where all people of color will be lumped together and will be suspected of being terrorists, tempered by national origin, biracial heritage, and religion. Recent government pronouncements indicate that the next terrorist is likely to not going to be an Arab face, but instead to be an Asian or African one. In addition, racial profiling of all people of color is more likely to occur because of the racial ambiguity and misidentification of the recently arrested post-September 11th perpetrators.
Racial profiling of all people of color will make it easier for authorities because they will not have to discern the differences between and among different racial groups in the United States. American citizens have been deputized to help ferret out future terrorist activities. This deputizing will lead to further racial profiling. Since the American public generally believes that those with dark skin are more likely to be violent than whites, they are likely to look upon anyone with non-white skin as a possible terrorist. Also, because the profiling will be justified on the ground of national security, the national security norm will trump the color-blind norm. Importantly, the first persons captured for allegedly planning or attempting to carry out additional terrorist attacks in the United States have been men of African or Latino descent--this phenomenon suggests that law enforcement officials may be too willing to rely on their traditional arsenal of racial profiles, while possibly overlooking dangerous perpetrators.
Second, racial profiling is directly related to the media depictions of people of color. For perpetrators who are racialized as white, the news media and society presume that they are inherently good and that something bad happened to cause them to do wrong; maybe they experienced bad parenting or even took an acne medication that caused serious psychological side-effects. For those racialized as being of African descent, however, the news media and society presume that they are generally bad with no mitigation for their behavior. Before September 11th, individuals with olive-complexions and those of Middle Eastern ancestry were stereotyped by the news media and society as a blend of two extremes--the positive stereotype of royal oil millionaire and the negative image of the fanatical terrorist. Since September 11th, the negative stereotype has all but completely overpowered the positive stereotype. At the moment, this segment of the population has been “darkened” in the American public's mind.
Finally, racial ambiguity and misidentification have implications in terms of the media depictions of the individual perpetrators and racial groups. As noted above, the coverage of each perpetrator changed over time to mirror changing perceptions of each man's “racialized identity.”
. Professor of Law, St. John's University School of Law, Jamaica, New York; B.S., New York University; J.D.-M.B.A., Columbia Universit
Vernellia R. Randall
Professor of Law
The University of Dayton
School of Law
Dayton, OH 45469-2772
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Ari Fleischer Uses 'Truther' Slur to Blunt Criticism That the Bush White House Received More Bin Laden Warnings Than Were Previously Known
In The New York Times today, journalist Kurt Eichenwald writes a 9/11 anniversary op-ed asserting that there are many more pre-Sept. 11 documents aside from the infamous Aug. 6, 2001 presidential daily brief warning the Bush administration that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack the United States. The nut of Eichenwald's argument:.
I can't vouch for Eichenwald's reporting, and I'm generally wary of working backwards from a once-in-a-lifetime event, since it's always possible to pluck (and then overrate) a few relevant floaters from the ocean of data. Regardless, these two reaction-tweets to the op-ed by former Bush administration spokesman Ari Fleischer are just crazy-wrong:
To state what should be the obvious, asserting that there was more relevant pre-attack intelligence than previously known, and criticizing the administration for undervaluing it, is an entirely different category of commentary than claiming that "Bush knew." If Eichenwald is a "truther," there is no evidence of it in this op-ed. Fleischer's blurt is the kind of mistake that immediately calls to mind the phrase "reading incomprehension," but I think it's something a bit more insidious than that.
Of the countless things I lament about our Sept. 12 world, the fever of irrational, emotion-fueled, shaddappayerface discourse, especially over those first three years after, ranks high on the list. Ari Fleischer was, and continues to be, part of that foul process. It's one thing to be a drunk in a bar, shouting epithets at anyone who dare criticize the political team you support. But this same impulse that Fleischer is reviving today was used in real time, by Fleischer and a variety of administration officials, to prevent anyone outside the White House from investigating the run-up to Sept. 11 or reading any of the relevant documents.
If anything, the disproportionate response to Eichenwald's classified-documents-based argument could be read as a pre-emptive attack against the possibility of ever releasing such briefings to the public. Which would be bad for the very national security such moves claim to protect. Recall that Thomas Kean, chairman of the Sept. 11 Commission, said in 2005 that the failure to prevent the attacks were more attributable to overclassification and lack of information-sharing than anything else.in eight months. [...]leaked),.
Pay particular attention to that bolded Dick Cheney quote above. In the fog of war and raw emotion of murdered innocents it can be hard to see that on the other side of a jingoistic appeal lies an old-fashioned bureaucratic ass-covering. But that's what this stuff so often is. Fleischer's crude slur should be laughed out of the room, all relevant files should be declassified without fear, and Americans should always be wary of government-proposed restrictions made in the name of squirrels appear to have eaten your title and the last part of the article
Title doesn't work for me.
I had posted prematurely, thanks, and sorry.
Premature Posting leads to blindness.
just think of ugly footballers or something
That won't fix the hairy palms
If the follicles are soft that might be an advantage.
A fundamental problem with any assessment of negligence in this matter is that we have no idea how regularly warnings of this type occurred.
Given our lack of context for these memos, and the fact that any information that gets out has obvious political implications, even ten years after the fact, I find it very difficult to draw a meaningful conclusion.
The point made in this Reason.com article is well-taken however.
Yes, as mentioned, I'm wary of jumping to post-facto conclusions about what should have been prevented.
^^This^^ We get warnings and chatter all of the time. They are terrorist. It is what they talk about. The problem is that you never know for sure what is serious and what isn't.
Just imagine Obama's face on Bush's body and then see how you react to negligence of this sort.
Shut up sock puppet. This is pretty much the only area I will defend Obama on. And you know it. Stop projecting your partisan idiocy onto everyone else.
Uh, Clinton missed an opportunity to take out Bin Laden. I don't think that John or anyone else here called that "negligence", since nobody knew that 9/11 would happen...
Of course it is the nature of intelligence successes that we never know what was prevented. But this was one major fuckup. If the Bushies get a pass on that failure, then no administration can ever be criticized for any intelligence failure that leads to a terrorist attack.
I'm spending my tax dollars to keep 9/11s from happening so I'm not prepared to make that bargain.
So not killing Bin Ladin wasn't a fuck up? Got it dipshit.
Sure, both Clinton and Bush failed to kill bin Laden.
Of course Bush failed to kill him for seven years after 9/11 while he was busy invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.
It's just one of those things! Nothing to see here!
Now isn't Obama a total failure? I mean sure he actually did kill bin Laden, but...
Yep, he rappelled from that chopper, knife between his teeth, M4 tracking like a death robot as he dropped tango after tango.
If you're going to hero worship, at least hero worship the guys who actually did it. Fucking hell I am so sick of whiny liberal cunts getting their war boners hard because their guy gave the go order for a mission that any American President would have authorized.
Mitt Romney said explicitly he wouldn't have made the same call. OBL wasn't found on Bush's watch. There's credit and blame to go around but let's be a little judicious. Bush is far from blame-free and Obama deserves a little credit.
Fuckin' Bush! I can't believe he negligently failed to overhaul the entire intelligence apparatus and divine the exact nature and timing and logistics of the 9/11 attack in the first 8 months of his presidency! DERP!
You are aware that Bush went into Afghanistan first, yes? That he went after Bin Laden first? Long before he went into Iraq?
Consider, also, the bureaucratic imperative to overstate risks to cover your ass if anything does happen, and inflate your importance regardless.
I would imagine the President is just absolutely swamped with carefully couched "intelligence" reports. The signal to noise ratio in the Oval Office must just be atrocious.
It is not so much that. It is more that they have no idea what the actual risk is. And they need to justify their jobs. So they go looking for risks. The President gets weekly intel briefs from DHS and I presume the CIA. Something has to be in those reports.
The problem is the nature of terrorism. If you know the full extent of the threat, the threat is over because you just go arrest or kill the guy. So any intel is always going to be vague. It has to be. The moment it is not vague, it ceases to be intel and becomes an active criminal case. So mostly those briefs are full of a lot of generalities that don't really mean a whole lot on the ground.
Did they believe al Qaeda was a credible threat? Probably a little, but probably not to the extent that they were going to do anything drastic on the domestic front.
There's a little observer-affecting reality problem here, too, as by taking preemptive action, which would likely delay any attacks, the public would be all "WTF?" because nothing happened. Besides, as a quasi-free society, it's really hard to lock down the borders or do anything that would really prevent an attack.
There's no real blame to be cast on 9/11, beyond the larger geopolitical issue with us being involved in the Middle East at all. Not just Bush, but Clinton as well. Yes, different tactics could've been used, but the need to do so wasn't appreciated until that Tuesday morning.
I'm generally wary of working backwards from a once-in-a-lifetime event
You can kiss your Pulitzer aspirations goodbye, Matt.
Bullshit on both sides.
Unless a reporter digs up some shred of evidence that there was specific intelligence that contained enough information to stop the 9/11 attack, it's just bullshit innuendo.
It's virtually identical to the "our listening posts had picked up radio traffic from the Japanese Navy on December 6, 1941, therefore FDR knew all about the Pearl Harbor attack days before, and he ordered the ammunition to be locked up and let the Japanese attack, in order to get the US into WWII!."
It's great to show bureaucratic inefficiency for what it is, but when did the NYT ever actually do that?
The intel only makes sense because you know what happened.
Yeah. You have a few pieces of the puzzle, all of which make sense as soon as the planes hit the towers in NY, or the bombs hit the ships in Pearl Harbor.
Intel is a bitch. I mean, we can't even predict how the SP 500 will do this afternoon, and supposedly the information that goes into that is public.
Incidentally, as much as I think Clinton is an assclown, it never occurred to me to blame him for not giving the "kill" order when we supposedly knew where Osama was in the late '90s.
Of course, Obama doesn't require as much justification to blow up some people overseas. His media is more compliant.
And BTW whatever one thinks of old Ari, I'm not sure that I think that the innuendo is distinguishable from "truther" innuendo.
I don't know. The Truthers are saying that there was a deliberate move to allow or ignore the threat, aren't they? There is a difference between negligence and deliberate action.
The Deafness Before The Storm
Nope, that title isn't meant to sway, tilt, focus, or lay blame on anyone else but BOOOSH. Not at all.
9/11 would never have happened, had Al Gore been sworn in!
Yeah...
This was one of the first remarks out of my buddy's gf's mouth after we saw the towers fall. I was dumbfounded.
So we have a bunch of Islamic extremist holding 9/11 rallies around the world. They're all potential terrorist threats. What specific actions could Obama take to prevent a specific unknown attack by one of them. Outside of turning their countries into sheets of glass. I mean if one of these guys carries out a terrorist attack inside the U.S. in the coming weeks, Obama should be blamed because he knew they wanted to do us harm but did not have specifics regarding their plan?
I agree. If you want to hold him to that standard, then you can't very well bitch when he just whacks them can you?
I wouldn't bitch. But I'm an asshole.
Anyone at the rally has declared himself to be a soldier fighting against the US. Some are lousy soldiers, but there are lousy soldiers in every army and they're fair game just like the good ones.
I am the same way. But I think we are a little more hard nosed about it than Reason.
You know, I cringed when Bush said, "Whoever is not with us is against us."
And I think it's silly to have a war on "terror."
But I do think there's an asymmetrical war going on.
Whatever we think of the target selection process, Obama's secret drone war is happening for a reason. The Mother Jones nutjobs may think it's because he's a sociopathic killer, but I don't buy that explanation.
When you're fighting a difficult asymmetrical war against violent Islamists who have declared war on us, openly and loudly, and who have followed through with real attacks around the world, you have to take what opportunities you have, to strike at the enemy. If he's going to parade around in the open, then OPEN FIRE.
My family history leads me to think that pacifists are naive little children, whether they call themselves "libertarian" or not.
This means that Iran is entitled to murder Americans who publicly call for an attack on Iran or who applaud any future attack on Iran.
Fluffy,
If those people are actively plotting terrorist attacks on Iran, sure. As far as a military attack on Iran, Iran has no more right to indiscriminately attack our civilian population any more than we have theirs. The question is who is a civilian. And if you are actively planning to attack another country, you are no longer a civilian.
I know Iran is such a wonderful and peaceful country that the normal rules of conflict probably shouldn't apply to it. But sadly most of the world doesn't understand how wonderful it is the way you do, so they do apply.
And if you are actively planning to attack another country, you are no longer a civilian.
A determination which is made in a Star Chamber by Top Men.
What an awesome vision of society you have, John.
Do these rules apply to US Citizens on US Soil, or not?
Rules of war, Randian. If you disagree with them, that's fine, but it's a much bigger argument than the point here.
The government does not get carte blanche when you invoke "rules of war". You either want the government to adequately explain itself before it drones a citizen of this nation or you don't.
You don't. I do.
Randian it is called a war. The nature of war is killing people. And you have to at least try to only kill those who are engaged in combat.
We have an enemy who refuses to identify itself or engage in conventional warfare. What would you propose we do? Nothing? Set the precident that we will never defend ourselves as long as you don't wear a uniform?
It sucks. That is why partisan warfare sucks and why nations have spent hundreds of years trying to deter it. Around 1945 we had something called wars against colonial aggression and stopped discouraging partisan warfare and instead started to reward it and encourage it. And this is what we have gotten.
What would you propose we do? Nothing?
Did I say that?
No.
What I want is my government to justify itself at least somewhat before it kills people, especially American citizens without due process.
A Star Chamber with Top Men is NOT due process. It's tyranny. If King George had some secret kill list wherein the British could fire cannons into people's houses off of the coast of Boston, that would have been first on the list in the DoI.
Randian,
In King George's time it was understood by both sides that anyone running around a battlefield making mischief without a uniform was liable to be hanged by either side. In fact, several Americans were hanged by the British as spies because they were caught behind lines without a uniform. Both sides understood the rules and played by them.
Try again.
That's a non sequitur, John.
Right now, your only standard to answer the question of "who is the Enemy?" is "when government says they are".
That is not a non sequiter at all. If you refuse to wear a uniform and hide amongst the civilian population and make war on a country, that country has a right to shoot you on sight. And that was the way things were in King George's time.
Randian it is called a war.
Is it? In our post-Westphalian world order, war is armed conflict between sovereign nations.
Technically, I believe we are still at war with North Korea, but I can't think of any other nation that we are at war with.
Now, I'm not sure that the Westphalian sovereignity notions are still valid, but I suspect adhering to them is better than the alternative (which was endless meddling in the affairs of foreigners).
If you are going to take the post-Westphalian notion that anyone plotting to attack you is eligible for extermination via military force, then you can't complain if others apply the same standards to you.
If you are going to take the post-Westphalian notion that anyone plotting to attack you is eligible for extermination via military force, then you can't complain if others apply the same standards to you.
No you can't complain. But you can sure as hell kill them before they do. Again, so what?
BarryD's statement was that if there are people around the world at demonstrations today either applauding the 9/11 attacks or cheering for more attacks on the United States, we can know that all of those people are "potential" terrorists and we should kill them all.
That means that if any American attends a demonstration that calls for an attack on Iran, or (following an attack in the future) publicly applauds that attack, the government of Iran can just as reasonably declare that American to be a potentially anti-Iranian terrorist and murder them.
They are entitled to take BarryD's statement and treat it as a maxim.
"Asymmetrical war." Look it up.
Iran has every right to try to repel an attack. They can shoot at anyone who attacks Iran, or who, if we are at war with Iran, has an American military uniform on, or is working with the American military.
Non-uniformed fighters, like guerrillas and spies, can be executed even when they have been captured.
This is all very standard stuff.
The problem is, Barry, is that the Government consistently fails to demonstrate any evidence that a person who is droned is in any way actively participating in any sort of anti-American asymmetrical warfare.
The criteria, tradtionally and legally, has been imminence, not simply planning or involvement.
So, on two fronts, the US Government fails its own legal criteria. First, it provides no evidence for participation in asymmetrical warfare. Second, it provides no evidence of immanency.
Barry, is that the Government consistently fails to demonstrate any evidence that a person who is droned is in any way actively participating in any sort of anti-American asymmetrical warfare.
Oh bullshit. Here is the latest drone strike
If you don't like drone strikes fine. But stop insulting people's intelligence and claiming that they just randomly drone strike people. They don't. That guy was an active enemy of this country and I would expect any President to kill him if the opportunity arose.
Oh they got AQ's #2 for the 15th time! Wow!
Tell me John, what evidence was presented that he was an 'active enemy' AND an 'imminent threat', both of which must be met to legally justify this?
Do you have any?
Tell me John, what evidence was presented that he was an 'active enemy' AND an 'imminent threat', both of which must be met to legally justify this?
First, he doesn't have to be an "imminent threat" to be a lawful target. So please put that term back in your ass where you found it. Second, he was clearly a member of Al Quada, an organization that the UN has declared to be hostile. It doesn't matter where he was or what he was doing. He was a member of Al Quada, so we have a right to kill him just like we have a right to kill a member of an enemy army.
First, he doesn't have to be an "imminent threat" to be a lawful target.
Yes, he does. Unless all of those treaties signed by the United States don't count, which would contradict the Constitution's very words on the subject.
Why do you hate the Constitution, John?
Second, he was clearly a member of Al Quada, an organization that the UN has declared to be hostile.
The Communist Party is hostile to America too. So are domestic militias.
You need a higher standard than "member in an organization that says bad things".
Yes, he does. Unless all of those treaties signed by the United States don't count, which would contradict the Constitution's very words on the subject.
What treaties? And the Constitution never says the US can't kill its enemies. Was every German soldier we killed in World War II an "imminent threat" whatever that is? No. Some of them were asleep or hundred of miles away from the nearest Americans. But they were still lawful targets. You are just wrong on this.
The Communist Party is hostile to America too. So are domestic militias.
If the Communist Party declared itself an international terrorist organization, started attacking America, and the UNSC passed a resolution authorizing the use of force against it, sure. But none of those things are true.
Can you at least try to understand the international framework of war?
Sorry, John, but the dominant interpretation of Article 51 of the UN, promulgated by the Security Council (on which the US sits), signed by the United States, is that self-defense requires imminence.
The only other position on this is that there is no such thing as pre-emption.
Please be assured that no one in the world (other than the United States) thinks you can self-identify your enemy using a secret process and kill him when he is not an imminent threat.
No. Some of them were asleep or hundred of miles away from the nearest Americans. But they were still lawful targets. You are just wrong on this.
They were still identifiable through organizational hierarchy and the burden and standard of proof was low and obvious.
The United States hasn't even deigned to inform We Proles what the criteria are before someone gets droned.
They were still identifiable through organizational hierarchy and the burden and standard of proof was low and obvious
And this guy wasn't? Again you are advocating we reward this behavior. Join and army and fight by the rules of war and you can be killed on sight. Be a terrorist and hide amongst civilians and in Randian world you are untouchable.
And you wonder why we get more terrorism?
I think continuing to send the #2s for dirt naps is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I'm not a fan of killing people just for the fuck of it, but I don't think the guy is AQ's #2 because he liked the pot luck dinners so much.
As far as I'm concerned, if he plotted to kill Americans and took steps to put that plot into action, I'd rather he be dead now and not wait until the plan was close enough to fruition to be imminent.
I'm not a fan of killing people just for the fuck of it, but I don't think the guy is AQ's #2 because he liked the pot luck dinners so much.
Every guy will kill AQ's #2. It is practically a running joke at this point.
I'd rather he be dead now and not wait until the plan was close enough to fruition to be imminent.
Imminency is required by treaties and laws to which the United States is a signatory. It's something greater than "sent an e-mail" and something less than "10 seconds before the plane hits the building".
However, given that we have absolutely zero information on the subject, We the People cannot control our own government. That's wrong.
Imminency is required by treaties and laws to which the United States is a signatory.
And pot is illegal, yet people argue here every day that that is suboptimal. It's odd how sometimes the law is the law and sometimes the law is just wrong.
If immanency is not a moral requirement, then you frankly don't believe in freedom of speech. You are saying by your own terms that any step taken in furtherance of a 'plot' to kill Americans is terrorist activity and therefore deserves instant death.
That includes sending an e-mail, writing a blog, mimeographing a newsletter...whatever.
If immanency is not a moral requirement, then you frankly don't believe in freedom of speech. You are saying by your own terms that any step taken in furtherance of a 'plot' to kill Americans is terrorist activity and therefore deserves instant death.
C'mon, man, you're better than that.
I believe in the freedom to say "Death to Americans." I don't believe in the freedom to take steps to carry out death to Americans. It's standard conspiracy law.
I believe in the freedom to say "Death to Americans." I don't believe in the freedom to take steps to carry out death to Americans. It's standard conspiracy law.
So what is the overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy of any of the droned targets?
We don't know.
"They were still identifiable through organizational hierarchy and the burden and standard of proof was low and obvious."
But we have not been deigned to be read into that.
Please be aware that there was an obvious end to WWII: the defeat and capitulation of Germany and Japan.
What is the end of the War on Terror? When goatherders stop planning crimes? Are we going to forever give the government carte blanche to both declare and terminate "enemies", even US Citizens, as it has done?
I get that you think equating goat herders with an organization that was able to train people to fly and exploit security weaknesses to murder 3,000 people somehow strengthens your position, but I'm just not seeing it. Or that being in favor of offing members of a group that has declared its intention to murder us is somehow being in favor of carte blanche killing.
At this point, whatever it is called, I don't think the effort to prevent terrorism is going away. Ever. That doesn't mean I think everything done in the name of terrorism is good, but I'm going to go ahead and submit that killing AQ members is good... just as good as killing members of Germany's and Japan's armed forces.
What is the end of the War on Terror?
The War on Terror will muddle along as it has done these past eleven years, never quite erupting into a conflict that has a noticeable impact until there is an escalation that makes the West realise that they are in, and have been in, an existential war.
Depending on the length of the muddling the WoT will end some time after that. If the muddling continues for some years, the hot side of the war will take longer. In the end, it is likely that Islam will lose.
The problem is that the evidence isn't provided. That's a different problem or question from whether it's legitimate to strike at someone who is engaged in anti-American asymmetrical warfare.
WRT imminence, that just means that it can't be speculation that some guy might, 20 years down the road, attack the US. But it's perfectly legitimate in a war to bomb an enemy base, even if the enemy isn't going to attack that morning.
Well, Barry, we are generally in agreement.
I will state that imminent threat has to be more than "angry guy in backwoods talking to his fellow goatherders about how nice it would be to strike at America"
If a three year old told me he was going to punch me in the face, it would be unreasonable for me to strike first, because the threat is not actionable nor serious.
As of 9/10/2001, we had no real reason to believe that a such bunch of goatherders posed any threat. That has changed.
Context matters. Threat assessments change depending on surrounding facts.
If some Mexican soldiers accidentally cross an unmarked border somewhere in a truck, we'll probably have a chat and send them home.
If Felipe Calderón says, "We will attack the United States" or Mexico declares war on the US, we will open fire on any Mexican soldiers crossing the border instead. We could also open fire on anyone else stupid enough to indicate that they're threatening the US in the name of Mexico. We don't have to determine if they're "serious" about it first. That includes US citizens. Treason isn't a common charge, but it's still on the books for a reason.
If Mexico then says, "We're sorry, our bad," then we would revert to the status quo ante.
Except Mexico is an identifiable entity with a leader.
The fact is that you are claiming that anyone with a 'Death to America' placard is subject to instant death. That is a terrible standard.
It is a terrible standard.
But unless we don't plan to fight against any entity that isn't a nation-state, I am hard pressed to come up with a good one.
Note that Al Qaeda and related organizations have declared their intentions. It's not speculation on our part.
So what standard can we use, exactly?
So now anyone who says "bad things" about America or the American government is an enemy soldier and it's ok to drone strike them with no due process?
The War on Terror is a crock of shit. Terrorism is a tactic. You can't declare a war on it any more than you can do with drugs or poverty. It's not a conventional fight, and you can't fight it like it is one
If you're going to respond to my post, at least read it first.
Whatever we think of the target selection process, Obama's secret drone war is happening for a reason. The Mother Jones nutjobs may think it's because he's a sociopathic killer, but I don't buy that explanation.
Well, how about this then; our intelligence services have agreed to an exchange with the government of Yemen. For some valuable intel, we'll clear out some existing local threats and fulfill some long standing vendettas going back to their civil war. Pretty much the same deal made in Somalia. We catch and kill a few targets related to the WoT, but mostly we're there as a result of a more long term strategy than the immediate threat.
For some valuable intel and long term cooperation
Last part got whacked.
Given the reports circulating (a very special Patriots Day two minutes hate!) that he often fails to attend intelligence briefings, he had better fucking hope nothing like that happens.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some pro-Iraqi war type spin this as
"See we under-rated the intelligence and got hit on 9/11. So when intelligence suggested Iraq had WMD, we couldn't take the chance and ignore it."
^^^
See this? This is exactly the problem.
On 9/10 had Bush taken an action that stopped 9/11 an idiot like this would start squawking. Because nothing happened. Since nothing happened there was no 'threat'. Let the squawking commence.
He provides the exact, precise, logical reasoning for the Iraq war and thinks it's spin.
Had the US not gone in anything that happened afterwards would be laid at Bush's feet--along with the fact that he'd 'ignored' 9/11 chatter too.
Everyone's a Monday morning intelligence analyst.
I suppose Fleischer's knee jerk reaction could stem from years of fighting off varying levels of conspiracy theories. Or more likely he saw an avenue of attack on the Grey Lady and took it.
Hmm. No specifics, but "they're determined" to attack".
So Bush should have enacted "No Child is a Patriot Act Part D" BEFORE 9/11/01, and it would have prevented two planes crashing into the World Trade Center, one into the Pentagon, and one into the grassy knoll. Plus, Iraq War, Part Deux.
I blame Bush. Oh, wait....
Oops this was meant to be unnested, not response to Fist.
Stupid nesting comments skwerlz.
Since you've DIRECTLY challenged my comment, let me respond.
Eichenwald is seemingly claiming that he's read reports or memos or whatnot that are more specific than Richard Clarke's no-shit memo. I'll have to see some of these declassified documents myself since I don't know anything about Eichenwald or his agenda (everyone has an agenda).
PWNED
Congratulations on finding a picture of Ari Fleischer that doesn't make him look like a punchable douchetard. Oh wait...
Has anyone posted a link to this yet?
FBI questions teen over Ron Paul video
Oh look at everyone stumbling over themselves to excuse Bush for what is objectively one of the greatest intelligence failures of all time.
Note the heart of the problem: the neocons, who were obsessed with Saddam Hussein, who didn't listen to actual intelligence experts, and who pretty much completely fucked whatever was good about this country for 8 long, painful years.
It's just one of those things! We definitely shouldn't worry about Mitt Romney surrounding himself with all the same characters who were so disastrously wrong about everything back then.
Shut up Tony. Bush had been in office less than 8 months. The intelligence failures go back well into the Clinton Administration. Take your retarded partisan shit to another thread where you can lick Obama's balls. Here the adults are trying to have a conversation.
I don't blame anyone here. I blame the whackjobs that thought attacking the U.S. domestically would advance their cause.
We're pretty vulnerable to attack. Period. Today and eleven years ago. That's because we're a big nation with free movement internally and lots of ways in.
The only way to stop someone who does care if they die from attacking you is to kill them before they can attack. That is pretty hard to do. And yeah, we are vulnerable to the odd attack. We always will be. The big thing is to make sure we never allow a really big nuke or chem attack. The odd car bomb or hijacking is the cost of living in the modern world sadly.
There's another dimension.
Someone who doesn't care if he dies, and DOES NOT REALLY CARE WHAT TARGET HE HITS, or exactly who dies in the attack. It's not an attack on any specific strategic target, or persons.
Sure, the 9/11 attacks were aimed at targets that were perceived as high-visibility. But they also chose targets simply because they were vulnerable to attack.
There are thousands of such targets, and probably hundreds of ways to attack. Guard some of them, and make certain avenues of attack more difficult, and there are plenty of alternative.
s
Oh it's Clinton's fault. Is this how it works: Anything bad that happened under Bush until 2004 was Clinton's fault, and anything after 2004 was Obama's fault?
This narrative is pretty simple: the neocons wrongly ignored specific threats.
I didn't even mention the time they were still obsessed with Sadaam after 9/11 and invaded a whole country based on more faulty approaches to intelligence. Just how many massive blunders does Bush get a pass on, exactly?
Shut up sock puppet. You have ceased to be worthy of reading much less responding to. We get it Tony, all evils in the world are the result of the evil Republicans and all good in the world is the result of the Democrats. And the only flaw the Democrats ever have is that they sometimes are just do not fight hard enough against the evil Republicans.
We know your fairy tale. You give it on every thread. Once again, take it elsewhere. The adults are talking.
I'm perfectly happy to discuss Democrats' faults, it's just they pale so much in comparison to negligently allowing the worst terrorist attack in history and then invading the wrong country and getting thousands more killed as a response. What's your excuse for that one, again?
I do not think you apply the same generous standards of forgiveness to Obama, who I'm certain you blame for much of the economic problems that, too, began under Bush. What's your excuse for that one?
Obama claims that the President can overpower the business cycle.
That's a core claim.
It doesn't matter what mess Bush left behind. The core claim of leftists is that they know better than the market and can fix everything and bring the utopia. Any time they fail to do that, no matter what the inputs are and no matter what the start position is, they are failures.
So Obama can be blamed for things that happened under Bush because... a bunch of strawmen?
No, Tony.
If Obama and I were the only candidates in 2008, and the question was, "What can be done to end the recession?" Obama's answer was "Elect me, because I can end the recession and bring back growth," and my answer was "Nothing can stop the recession now. We just have to ride it out, and the best thing we can do is stop trying to stop it."
That means that if Obama wins the election and the economy stays bad, we get to conclude that his statements about his magical economy healing powers were false.
I can't find that quote. Do you have a source? Or are you just making things up you thought you heard? I was pretty sure I heard "change will be hard and won't happen overnight."
There is no serious analysis that suggests that doing nothing would have produced a better outcome: that's just magical libertarian thinking. I wish I could just make shit up and declare it true.
My underlying point remains: the standard of blame being applied to Bush and Obama seem to be completely out of whack on this message board.
There is no serious analysis that suggests that doing nothing would have produced a better outcome: that's just magical libertarian thinking.
I wouldn't have made the recession better. That's the whole point. I would have stood by and let it fall all the way to the bottom. Because I think that in the long term that's the best way to proceed.
Holding any other opinion whatsoever constitutes believing that the government can control the business cycle. And as soon as you assert that, if you fail to produce a perfect business cycle devoid of recessions or periods of sluggish growth and general unpleasantness, you have failed.
Pretty much by definition there is no scenario to which the preferred outcome is a Great Depression. Your business cycle theory leaves out the possibility (of which there is plenty of evidence) of the vicious cycle. And there is no way in hell you wouldn't be blaming Obama for 25% unemployment if you'd had your way.
If Obama had done nothing and we experienced 25% unemployment (which, at 16-17%, we're not too far off as it is), I absolutely would not have blamed him in the slightest.
As it is, I only blame the President because he failed on his own terms, not because I thought he could actually do something productive about it. In other words, I am holding the President accountable to his own standards.
I'm perfectly happy to discuss Democrats' faults, it's just they pale so much in comparison to negligently allowing the worst terrorist attack in history
You do realize all the planning and training for the 9/11 attacks took place while Slick Willy was in office? Seriously, you're not even trying anymore.
And the execution of the attacks happened on Bush's watch. If Bush had a (D) after his name this board would look a lot different and that's the problem I have. Even when most of you guys are positing a fallacious equivalence of the parties you are being disingenuous.
You really are a dishonest assnugget.
Absolutely--if Bush had a D after his name and did everything exactly the same as he did it, you would be singing his praises. We all know this.
The rest of the board would be kicking or praising Bush as his policies and positions warrant, just like they do now.
I needed a good laugh, thanks.
The Bushies made it impermissible to question Republicanism after 9/11. It's easy for even the hardest of objective observers to forget just what a monumental fuckup that entire presidency was.
Libertarians typically go somewhat into conspiracy theory mode and at least assume the worst of politicians. But all I see here is a bunch of trashing of the premise of the article and knee-jerking to defend Bush. Sell your objectivity to someone who hasn't been here so long.
Oh it's Clinton's fault. Is this how it works: Anything bad that happened under Bush until 2004 was Clinton's fault, and anything after 2004 was Obama's fault?
This seems to have a ring of familiarity to it. It's almost like someone might use this strategy to defend their "work" to "save" the economy. Then, when that doesn't work, well, it's obviously the previous President's fault. I'm sure this will all work itself out in the next four years. He just needs more time.
Ooops. Maybe I need to read farther down the page next time. Or maybe I should just not give a damn about what Tony posts.
Dude, I hate Bush more than anybody. But this is just dumb.
Some days the bear gets you. That's just how it is. It's psychotic to declare that any time the enemy is successful we have to go around and find people to force-choke over it.
I bet the Pentagon has a threat assessment out there for Britain suddenly sneak-attacking us out of nowhere. But if that ever happens, we can't look at the assessment and say, "You should have known this would happen!"
"Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" is about as helpful a guide to action as "Mugger to Strike Somewhere in US Tomorrow!" It's a big country.
We can't know for sure how much negligence was involved without reading the memos referred to, but given the desire and follow-through of attacking Iraq even post-9/11, the idea that the neocons were obsessed with Iraq and negligent to the real threats is certainly plausible, if not downright undeniable.
I'm not willing to go down the road of forgiving every administration that ever will be for every inability to stop a massive terrorist attack. Are you?
I certainly blame Bush for stupidly invading Iraq.
But that's a separate issue.
The issue is whether the 9/11 attacks could have been prevented by action originating the Oval Office. And I just don't see it.
The only way the 9/11 attacks could have been prevented is by sheer luck by some street-level cop or FBI agent bumping into Atta one day and deciding to pursue a hunch. Or we could have gotten REALLY lucky and Ziad Jarrah could have chickened out because he missed his wife (which apparently almost happened) and he could have blown the whole thing. What was NOT going to happen was that Bush was going to hear the assessment and magically declare the exact right policy to stop 19 guys randomly roaming around the US 5 weeks before the attacks.
It all depends on what's in the memos. And Iraq is direct evidence of the neocons' inability to properly assess intelligence, which is a generous criticism.
You assume that Iraq was borne out of bad intelligence, which is not true.
It was borne from deliberate misrepresentation of intelligence in order to justify a larger strategic vision for the region. Condi Rice admitted as much.
Hence "generous criticism." Similarly I think it's more accurate to say the neocons were negligent on 9/11 intelligence rather than simply blindsided.
Similarly I think it's more accurate to say the neocons were negligent on 9/11 intelligence rather than simply blindsided.
Which you're just making up without evidence.
The evidence is allegedly contained in the memos referred to in this article, if the original memo doesn't count enough by itself.
The evidence is allegedly contained in the memos referred to in this article,
So, made-up 'evidence'.
Let's say that the Bush administration pieced together the general idea behind 9/11, but not the specific actors. The Bush administration puts in place oppressive security at airports. 9/11 is averted. Does Eichenwald thank Bush or call him a fascist?
For the amount of money we spend on counterterrorism you'd think it's at least conceivable that we could have figured out the actual actors and the actual plot, without having to do what is still considered mostly pointless security bullshit at airports.
By this account the threat was ignored as bluster by administration neocons who were not experts on terrorism but who overruled those who were. They were disastrously wrong. They shouldn't get a pass on that.
The point is that we didn't spend a lot of money on counter-terrorism (and could stand to spend less than we do now).
Before 9/11*
Personally, I would have called them fascists.
If they didn't know the details of the plot, their only real conceivable action would have been rounding up all the names that ended up on the terrorist watch list and throwing them into camps. If you don't know which 19 "terror affiliated suspects" to get, you have to get them all.
And if on the basis of "threat assessments" and "chatter" the Bush administration had thrown thousands or tens of thousands of people into camps, you wouldn't have had to be a very persuasive guy to talk me into going out into the street to throw Molotov cocktails.
Agreed. And so would the author, IMO. And so would I.
And it strikes me as a bit disingenuous to argue that they should have done something knowing full well he'd excoriate them for doing what was almost certainly the only something with a realistic chance of preventing what happened.
Given that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by a few people, it's most likely that rounding up people and putting them into camps would have stopped 9/11 just about as well as FDR's doing that stopped the War in the Pacific.
I think a list of names mentioned in intercepted chatter provides are more useful starting point than national heritage does.
And, really, the claim wasn't that it was going to stop the War in the Pacific, it was going to stop sabotage. Which, for all we know, it did, just like camps might have stopped 9/11. The point is that that is too high a price to pay.
Yes, the problem with Tony's criticism is that the actions necessary to have prevented 9/11 would result in a state he wouldn't like very much.
Much in the same way I don't advocate pre-screenings and preventative detainment for budding psychopaths, recognizing that yes, they may someday go nuts and 'active shooter' me in the middle of the streets, I recognize that a free society requires we live with a slightly-more-than-minute risk of terrorist activity.
"a state he wouldn't like very much"
Perhaps you assume too much about Tony.
You and I wouldn't like it much, though.
I don't think so. We've had very rigorous antiterrorism ops since long before 9/11. It's just that the Bushies were so godawful at executing government at every conceivable level.
Totally. I mean, there are reams of evidence that pointed to the exact time and place where the attacks originated, what the targets were, and who the actual terrorists were to mkae it 100% preventable. And those Portland security guys were clearly political appointees - how else can you explain the incompetence that let them through security?
For once, I agree with Shit-For-Brains. I mean, come on, this is clearly a case where enough specific intelligence existed to directly prevent the murder of 3,000 innocents by Muslim Islamofacists, whom Shit-For-Brains clearly hates as much as any Teabagger and Democrat in Congress leading up to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
the FBI field office in phoenix (i believe) reported folks learning take-off, but no landing procedures.
And I'm sure that, when the agents involved turned on their TV or computer on 9/11, the light went on, and the weird bit of intel suddenly made sense.
That's the problem with all that stuff.
u gotta admit that's bizarre
Obviously.
And that's why the agents reported it.
What they didn't and couldn't know was that a group of guys would use boxcutters to take over some commercial jets, then fly them into some famous buildings.
pre-9/11, the FBI could reasonable infer was that there would be hyjackings. and yet they did nothing
This is the truth.
Monday Morning Quarterbacking is permissible when blaming BOOOSH, apparently.
Right, but the guy who was detected "not learning how to land" was Zacarias Moussaoui, who was arrested before the attacks, and is now serving life in supermax.
So the FBI had reason to think "Hey, we stopped a hijacking!" (Pats on backs all around.)
Exactly! More direct and specific evidence that an attack would occur on 9/11 and were completely preventable. Bush obviously ignored it all on purpose in order to generate a pretext to go to war.
no, bush und his neocon playmates, preferred to believe that hussain, not aQ was the target.
and bush/cheney/rummy all attempted to shoehorn iraq into the 9/11 picture.
Yes, yes! I mean, there is no proof of that whatsoever but who cares if it bolsters the Narrative, AMIRITE?!?!
If only Clinton had taken bin Laden when Yemen offered, right?
Yeah...
Except that the '90s was a time when the US was trying to clean up after decades of fucked-up Cold War "involvements" overseas. Would any libertarian at the time have supported Clinton's taking out Bin Laden? I don't think so.
It was in response to Tony's "They were disastrously wrong. They shouldn't get a pass on that." If that's the standard, Clinton was disastrously wrong and shouldn't get a pass on that.
And, actually, I think it was Sudan, not Yemen. Regardless, I think there was already plenty in place to justify taking out bin Laden at the time.
That wasn't exactly a negligent response to intelligence, but a policy choice. In hindsight a disastrous one, perhaps, but you guys do realize that the first thing I wrote is proving itself over and over: you guys are falling all over yourselves to give Bush a pass. He was a fuckup of monumental proportions. Why do Democrats need to enter the conversation at all? Talk about them elsewhere. You guys sure don't hesitate to blame Obama for everything down to your stubbed toe, so I don't see the point of this Bush apologetics.
Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field.
The point, of course, is to point out your own hackery, Tony.
You shouldn't be surprised that people enjoy tearing you down. I mean, you are an asshole here on purpose, right?
you guys are falling all over yourselves to give Bush a pass.
No, he made mistakes. The point is that it's a mistake that probably couldn't have been avoided without taking the kinds of actions you'd probably be screaming about had they been taken.
That wasn't exactly a negligent response to intelligence, but a policy choice.
So a purposeful decision to let bin Laden go is somehow superior to negligence?
We get it 'Tony' - Obama is not responsible for the disastrous economy of the past four years he's been in office, but BOOOSHH is responsible for the previous two years of intelliegnce fuckups under Clinton when the 9/11 plot was being worked out and trained for by al qaeda. DERP!
There probably was plenty in place.
But I remember the context and temper of the time.
They wouldn't have 'taken him out'--they would have arrested him. Sudan had captured him and they were willing to hand him over to us for...the Cole bombing?
But Clinton said no.
Scariest thing is that this was most likely before or at the very beginning of 9/11 planning.
Americans should always be wary of government-proposed restrictions made in the name of "war."
As well as NYT journalists claiming "While those documents are still not public, I have read excerpts from many of them...".
Riiiight, sure you have. While Eichenwald might not have come right out and said it, it seems like he was pretty much implying that "Bush knew". If I were in Bush's shoes and was told "Osama Bin-Laden/ Al-Qaeda wants to attack the US and is planning some kind of attack in the near future" I'm pretty sure my response would have been "No shit, Sherlock, tell me something I don't already know, like when, where, and how."
Hell, even the much touted "Pheonix memo" doesn't actually contain anything that could be considered actionable intelligence. All it said was "Al-Qaeda sympathizers are in the US taking flight training, but we're not sure why or how they intend to use that knowledge in a hypothetical terrorist attack". Again my response would be "...and we can do what with this? Ratchet up security at airports to defend against an attack, but we still don't know where, when, or exactly what they're planning?"
Not that I'm defending Bush mind you. He was an incompetant jack ass who used the attack as an excuse to consolidate even more power in the federal government's hands (PATRIOT Act, TSA, HSA, etc.), but give me a fuckin' break.
did they ever find out what was on the memos Sandy Burger stole in his pants?
FDR maneuvered to leave Pearl Harbor inadequately defended.
The WTC had been attacked previously.
There had been a number of indications of possible airline hijackings.
A number of the hijackers were on watch lists, yet were in the country legally.
The Project for a New American Century published a document citing a need for a "Pearl Harbor incident" to justify expanding US military footprint in the middle East.
Several administrations had called for regime change in Iraq.
What should we make of that?
Isn't Bush "knew" the implication though? If he had all this information, why didn't he stop it?
From the book:.”
Just one of those things! In the words of another Texas statesman, "Oops."
I read the article and didn't see anything new that would indicate there was actionable intelligence. Even if the administration had specific knowledge of a hijacking attempt the only way to thwart it would have been to target and profile Muslim travelers. We can't even get liberals to agree to do that NOW, after 9/11.
If there were truly some damning new evidence, why wait until the anniversary of the event during the heart of election season? Did this information become available just yesterday? This is the NYT trying to blame Bush for 9/11. Obama's ball spiking on OBL is part of the narrative also.
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I was reading through TIME magazine when I came upon this article entitled, "Japan's Beauty Queen Factory." I recalled Miss Japan won this year's Miss Universe (kudos to her!) But my mood soured greatly as I read this article.
It's about a French lady who was handpicked by Donald Trump to be the boot camp sergeant to Miss Japan hopefuls. No doubt this lady has been successful:
"For the last 10 years, Ines Ligron has been ordering young Japanese women to strip, walk tall, free their inner woman and wear lots and lots of makeup in an effort to seriously compete in the Miss Universe beauty pageant. And compete they have. The contest, long monopolized by Latin America's goddess industry, has now seen three of Ligron's frightened girls make it into the top five, including a first runner-up last year and, most spectacularly, 21-year-old dance student Riyo Mori, who two weeks ago won the title of Miss Universe 2007 and brought back the $250,000 crown to Japan for the first time in 48 years."
But here is where things get bad:
"Ligron, 44, is the national director of Miss Universe Japan, and her job is to create world-class beauty queens out of young Japanese women in a country that favors smallness over voluptuousness, reserve over unrestrained confidence, a demure smile over a sparkling grin...
... and she was appalled to find in Japan a country of young women hunched over and wobbling in untrendy shoes, avoiding the sun to keep pale, hiding under too many layers of stockings and Bridget Jones underwear. "The first thing that struck me was — I have to liberate these women!" she says... The women would also live with the beauty producer for months to learn "how to be a woman, a gaijin [foreigner] woman, from me."
Really Ms. Ligron? So many f'd up Japanese women. Thank our lucky stars, you're over there to fix their problems and teach them "how to be a woman." /sarcasm. Tell me Ms. Ligron, is this why Western women are so obsessed with silicone enhancements? But maybe I am overreacting? Well, I don't think so...
"Success in the global beauty market, however, is not necessarily embraced back home. Last year's Miss Universe runner-up Kurara Chibana has been a commercial hit back in Japan; and with her east Asian facial features... However, Miss Universe Mori fits the more statuesque, chiseled mold of Latin American and southeast Asian beauties. When a Japanese sports daily mistakenly published Miss Thailand's picture as Mori — and blundered in its apology by claiming the photo was of Miss Korea — local tabloids, instead of faulting the newspaper, criticized Ligron's crowning achievement for having a homogeneous beauty pageant look. Indeed, newspaper writers — reflecting the tastes of Japanese men — wondered if 5'9" Mori (who speaks English) embodies anything Japanese at all.
Ligron, who has been approached to replicate her success in other countries, thinks it may be just as well. !!! Show those barbarians the light Ms. Ligron! I'm so sorry my daughter isn't up to your standards Ms. Ligron. Whoops, I forgot I don't give a $hit about you or your views! Cut the bull$hit about liberating Japanese women, you're only imposing Western ideas of beauty on them!
And I'm not even going to go into the hidden racism, her digs at Japanese men or equating Miss Universe with real talent, careers, confidence? Just too much hypocrisy. Frankly, I see jealousy at play here.
What I do know is my daughter, with her east Asian facial features, is really beautiful on the outside and I'm going to keep telling her that.
20 comments:
Beauty standards worldwide are damaging to girls. I find that both Eurocentric and Korean beauty standards were equally oppressive when I was growing up.
This woman's particular take on beauty is, of course, blatantly racist. But to be honest, it's hard for me to say whether the act of judging beauty would be any less problematic without overtones of racism--or if it's even possible for human beings to judge beauty without revealing their cultural baggage.
I think the best and most productive response would be for parents to do what they can to make sure their daughters don't need the kind of poisonous and empty promise of validation that beauty contests (and beauty comparisons on any level) offer.
"Ligron, 44, is the national director of Miss Universe Japan, and her job is to create world-class beauty queens out of young Japanese women in a country that favors smallness over voluptuousness,"
You highlighted "smallness over voluptuousness" in your post, but that phrase was written by the author, not Ligron.
"The first thing that struck me was — I have to liberate these women!" she says..."
This really does sound horrible coming from a white woman about Japanese women. However, this statement is really ambiguous at best. She may not want to rescue them because they are Japanese, but due to the details mentioned in the previous part of the article.
"The women would also live with the beauty producer for months to learn "how to be a woman, a gaijin [foreigner] woman, from me."
Well, she did clarify woman to be "gaijin woman". The Miss Universe pageant is not truly universal in the way it judges beauty. One can tell that there is a heavy bias toward the Eurocentric ideal, even if it does not reflect true European beauty. The current standard is South American and not every European is naturally tan in coloring. But that is the current ideal embraced in the West today. The contest embraces the Eurocentric ideal of what an ideal woman is. They like women with a lot of confidence and charisma. These are not ideals really embraced by East Asian cultures, at least Korea and Japan.
Ms. Ligron knows how the contestants are being judged and that's why she is grooming them to meet the standard. I don't think that is racist. I think the Eurocentric ideal as a standard to judge the Miss Universe pageant is racist.
"Really Ms. Ligron? So many f'd up Japanese women. Thank our lucky stars, you're over there to fix their problems and teach them "how to be a woman." /sarcasm."
I had the same initial reaction that you did when I read the article. However, I have read another earlier interview of Ms. Ligron where she said that Japanese women are beautiful having long legs, etc. as well as how Japanese revere politeness, etc., but that politeness is not going to work for them on the Miss Universe stage.
!!!"
I don't think that she meant all Japanese women are kawaii, etc. But you do have to acknowledge that there is a preferred ideal in Japan just like other countries. I don't think she is saying Miss Universe is the only sources of role models.
The article can come off really bad, but I think it leaves an ambiguous impression of Ms. Ligron, not necessarily negative.
WHO ARE YOU, JSTELE?! Who?! I keep seeing your comments and the more I read them, the more I wonder who you are . . . I mean, c'mon!
Ambiguous? In what fantasy world? The woman's entire perspective, as well as the sentiments quoted in this post, are downright racist.
I think nations, particularly those with largely non-white populations, should just stop supporting the damn Miss Universe pageant anyway. The whole idea of a country wanting to show how "its women" are just as/more beautiful that "other countries' women" is reactionary and ridiculous on so many levels. It's no surprise to me that people like Ligron are at the "top" of such a scene.
This article was published in Time magazine and obviously the author and editors think it's Western-centric message will appeal to the majority of its readers.
And no doubt it will find appeal amongst many readers who just love seeing non-Westerners adopting Western standards as a validation of themselves. And as an added bonus they can laugh at Japanese men for their freakish tastes.
Yet why are some of these so-called liberated Western men booking pedophile sex tours to Thailand? (Sorry, couldn't resist the tit for tat.)
ten feet of steel, one thing could be said for having a Korean beauty standard - at least more Korean women will be able to meet it vs. trying to meet a Eurocentric standard. Ms. Ligron is basically trying to push one universal standard of beauty, one of course that favors her race...
Man, if I were a sellout, I'd spend my money consuming Western media, feeding Hollywood all my cash to make sure they give me an endless supply of their poison.
Then I'd do my medical residency in plastic surgery, specialize in Asian blepharoplasty and breast augmentation, and offer my services to your daughter so that she has a chance at winning Miss Universe.
Alternatively, I could save all my money and donate it to the RiceDaddies Empowerment in Diversity Challenge, and combat the forces that emphasize the shallow artifice promoted by people like Ms. Ligron.
Angie,
"WHO ARE YOU, JSTELE?! Who?! I keep seeing your comments and the more I read them, the more I wonder who you are . . . I mean, c'mon!"
Hahahaha. LOL. I must torture you some more:)
Ten feet of steel,
"Ambiguous? In what fantasy world? The woman's entire perspective, as well as the sentiments quoted in this post, are downright racist."
Well, I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. When I read comments, I try to find every reasonable explanation for them, then judge. In this case, her comments come off as ambiguous. They could be negative or not, so I don't want to call her a racist. I know that if she was a Japanese woman saying these things, I wouldn't think she was a self-hating Japanese necessarily. So I will just leave it be until I get more information.
jstele:
there's that word "IF" again. "If she was a Japanese woman" . . . she's not. That's the point.
"I . . . then judge." Who are you to make judgents like that, esp. when using the word "IF"?
OK, that article was appalling on so many levels it is almost impossible to know where to start.
So. Instead I'll just weigh in with my opinion that your daughter is beautiful, and the reasons I think so are because of the humor and intelligence in her eyes and the joy in her smile.
And IMO, those things don't require cultural translation.
Angie,
"there's that word "IF" again. "If she was a Japanese woman" . . . she's not. That's the point."
I wonder why you brought the word 'if' up, but then I remembered. . . . You wrote a comment on the Kimchi Mamas blog attacking Jill for using 'if' in her apology. I wrote a civil comment in response to you. It is rather tasteless and quite inappropriate, I might add, to slam me on this thread for a comment I made on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WEBSITE. If you disagree, you can certainly comment there. Don't be passive aggressive.
BTW: jstele, I believe you're thinking of Kyong.
I have a hard time accepting beauty pageants as anything but damaging to little girls. Have you noticed that the current Miss Korea has had obvious alterations made to her face? It hurts so much personally when I see traditional Korean beauties be rejected for an altered artificial beauty made to look nothing like me. A model such as Hye Park IS inspiring because, although she may have had plastic surgeries (I don't know that - that's a hypothetical ALTHOUGH), she sure as hell has Eastern Asian features... and you know what? She looks HOT!
As far as reading the article objectively? Ms. L is appalling - and she is a part of an antiquated system of valuing a young woman's beauty. It is quite ironic that she comments on 'liberating' these Japanese women and yet she doesn't seem to quite understand what it truly means to be a liberated woman.
Agh. Beauty pageants. Ick, ick. ick. "Little Miss Sunshine" - now, that movie made me swear off kiddie pageants.
Oh, and your daughter? By far TOO beautiful to be entering that farce of a contest. My goodness, she is breathtakingly beautiful - I'm sure she is just as beautiful inside!
Ha ha, I just caught the line that says that Ms. L was handpicked by Donald Trump. Well. That says it all, doesn't it?
Thanks liza and mama nabi.
It's going to be interesting during her teen years, LOL! While I am honestly happy for my daughter that she is blessed with good looks on the outside (and all the benefits that psychologists say go along with that), as a parent I think it's going to be challenging.
She's already getting special attention from boys in Kindergarten (geez!) and adults give her special treatment too. Then there is Asiaphilia on top of this. GREAT....... I feel my hair turning white already, hehe.
All kidding aside, my wife and I both agree we need to work hard on making sure our daughter is also resilient and strong on the inside.
Gender roles, standards of beauty, our daughters are subjected to so much crap by our society and our media that we have to consciously work against, work to balance out in our parenting. My daughter's only 2 and I've been thinking about this stuff since before she was born. Add the issue of race into the mix, and it gets even more complicated.
As dads of daughters, we have an important role in both combatting negative images and their effects on our daughters, and in working to help them grow into confident, happy, strong selves. We have to be media literacy educators, advocates against sexism and racism, all the stuff we may have already been doing in our own lives takes on a new importance when we're talking about doing it for our children.
There's a non-profit called Dads and Daughters that, besides advocating for the involvement of dads in daughters' lives, does a lot of media analysis stuff that's interesting.
Last year, I wrote on my blog about Dove's "True Colors" ad and how it made me think about my own babygirl's future. You can read it here and find a link to the video too.
I don't think my daughter is in any danger of joining a beauty contest. But what keeps me up at night is trying to conteract the messages that women in her immediate circle of influence send regarding who sees themselves as too fat and "not ready for bathing suit season". Mamas, you're daughters (and sons!) are watching you and we need to lead by example. Accept yourself and value your inner beauty. How you talk about your own beauty is one of the most powerful standards by which our daughters measure themselves and one of the ways we teach our sons to value women.
one thing could be said for having a Korean beauty standard - at least more Korean women will be able to meet it vs. trying to meet a Eurocentric standard
How many more women? 0.1% more? 1% more? 10% more? Monster daddy, the way I see it, the point is to not validate any arbitrary ideal of beauty by trying to meet it. None are permanent, all change with the trends, and, beauty ideals are in their very essence always exclusive of the vast majority of people. If a lot of people could meet those ideals...they wouldn't be ideals and would have no value as such.
Besides, regardless of which ideal she strives for, how much energy should a girl spend trying to live up to it?
Since to be human means that one is never immune from placing high value on beauty, I'm all for a more inclusive definition. However, I think it's more important to try to raise girls to take the whole notion of beauty with a grain (or a handful) of salt and place less importance on it. So instead of lamenting that your daughter will never be Miss Universe (which I do understand was just a rhetorical strategy on your part), it might be better to do what you can to make sure your daughter never wastes her energy becoming the kind of person who would value the idea of participating in a beauty contest.
After all, does being Asian make it better for a girl to mourn the fact that she doesn't look like an Asian supermodel or beauty queen? Why? Because she might have to do less dieting and have less plastic surgery to meet that goal than to look like a blonde bombshell?
Which is why I see the whole "[insert race here] is beautiful too" concept as a double-edged sword. Yes, it's important to counteract racism that says that anything non-European is by definition inferior. However, I think that should be done by putting beauty in it's place, so to speak, rather than just replacing European standards with an ethnic standard that, realistically speaking, isn't any less achievable for the vast majority of women even within that ethnicity. If only you could throw the baby out with the bathwater in this case.
I just don't see the benefit of saying "Hey, Kelly Hu is just as beautiful as Rose McGowan... and the chances, statistically speaking, that any girl today will look like either of them when she grows up are infinitesimal." Call me crazy, but it would be nice to see an emphasis on things like a real woman's accomplishments and contributions to the world around her and leave the celebrity beauty assessments as something for easily dismissible and lighthearted fun.
ten feet of steel, I think you misunderstand the point I was making which was simply against having one racial standard of beauty being imposed on women of any race. Don't read any more into it.
That said, I get the impression that you feel that few women can meet any external standard of beauty. That may be true for some. Personally, my standard of beauty for women is quite broad and I think many women if not the majority of them would meet it.
Beauty contests would be irrelevant to me and my daughter except for the media messages it sends, i.e. when the external standard of beauty is racially based; blonde hair, sharp nose, or blue eyes, etc. Ms. Ligron implies the winner of Miss Universe must meet the Eurocentric standards she imposes, in the words of Phil Yu, that's racist!
Monster Daddy,
We're in agreement that one ethnic standard of beauty shouldn't be imposed across the board.
However, the article is about a woman whose mission is to run beauty contests. My point is that the world of beauty pageants, like Hollywood and the fashion industry, has an entire standard of "beauty" that is oppressive and always will be, regardless of what the favored features are. That particular view of beauty is at its very nature exclusive and competitive. To me, it makes only the smallest difference whether the standards that woman wants to "nurture" are white or not.
And I'm fundamentally questioning the notion of valuing beauty so much--especially in children. I'm just saying that the way a woman's/girl's looks are so fundamentally important to her sense of self-esteem is really the underlying problem, and racism, in my view, is more of an exacerbating factor in it.
little miss sunshine, man. The superfreaking at the end was so hilarious, and such a great way to destroy a beauty pagaent from the inside out.
One one level, I wouldnt ever want my daughter dancing like that to a rick james tunes. but on the other, if it had to be done, I would want THAT to be the reason why. |
By Katherine and Greg
This one is for Holly, who keeps asking to see our kitchen. When Katherine’s parents saw the color scheme we’d chosen, they promptly gave us John Deere dish towels. A friend made our curtains. We love Ball jars and have a chronic Tupperware shortage. What do we love about our kitchen? All the counter space. What do we hate? The counters and not having a gas range.
This is our favorite place for date night. Greg took the photos lining the wall on our honeymoon in Venice in 2003.
We picked up this sideboard at a charity consignment shop. Greg removed the middle shelf and swapped out the hardware, which is pretty evident from the rings behind the pulls. Distress is good. The wooden tray on top is the till from Katherine’s grandparent’s old store in Springfield, Tennessee. Look close, the outhouse salt and pepper shakers are a gift for her parents. No one spoil the surprise.
Another vintage find, Greg used his winning smile and a cash-money offer to talk the sales guy into letting these stools go for a Franklin. The KitchenAid is a Christmas gift from his parents.
Ever see those advice columns on what “luxury” items aren’t worth the money? Name-brand pans are usually on the list. Ignore them. We scrimped and saved to buy a pan a month off our registry after we got married.
The spice rack was a wedding present to Katherine’s parents. They gave it to her when she moved away. (We actually have a spice cabinet, but like this out too.) Katherine gave me the chopping block one Christmas.
What were we making this particular Sunday? Cherry and peach bruschetta and dog treats. (The recipe’s coming.)
LOVE the green kitchen! Green is one of my favorite colors. My kitchen is all red…I wanted to step outside my comfort zone. This is a beauty of a kitchen. I can’t wait till I live somewhere more permanent and get a chance to create an ENTIRE kitchen from scratch (apartment living doesn’t really let me do that to the extent I’d like). Also, I remember Katherine’s rooster collection from a previous post–her teapot certainly is adorable!
Thanks, Erin. We’re not big on nicknacks so Katherine tries to have roosters on functional things, for the most part. Her mom once got one of her sisters a rooster something or other. Got the girls confused!
Adorable kitchen! Amen to bad counters and electric stovetops…I HATE mine (actually, hate doesn’t even begin to describe how I feel about my awful coils…yes coils. Argh). I agree on the quality cookware, I had cheap for years and will never go back after gettin all clad d5 for our wedding. Even on the crappy stove, they cook like a dream ( when the coil temp doesn’t freak out). I think I need to post some pics now
Seriously though, nice work on the kitchen, it looks like a wonderful place to spend time!
Katherine hates even seeing the counters, even a glimpse, in any picture I take. As for the stove, at least it’s a glass top. It’s easier to clean, but not as easy as you’d think.
I fracking HATE my glass top stove. I’d rather have coils. At least you can clean that stove top. The glass top (smooth all around)never gets clean-even with the fancy cleaner and scrubbers and and and… My kitchen is configured that I have to have a JenAir stove with a down draft-so sadly when I replace this POC I have to get another one. However, I will be going back to coils. I could get gas, but that would be some major coin in piping it in. Funny though, I love the oven. But, I use the oven about 1/3 as much as the stove top.
I know. It looks clean but you can never get the streaks out!
A virtual tour. Very cool. Just a glimpse of Venice. Your blog is superior to any cooking show on TV! Just today a colleague said that now she is addicted to your blog too. Keep up the excellent posting and photographing. I can now envision your kitchen when I read your posts. Thanks to Holly for the excellent idea. And I know it is Roosters. (once someone asked what roosters say in different parts of the world)
Thanks, Ruth. You are going to give me a big head! I’m tickled one of your colleagues reads the blog.
a) Katherine likes to collect Rooster things!
b) A retro sort of looking kitchen is the last thing I imagined your kitchen to look like – it’s AMAZING!
c) I am fascinated at the handiwork put into making that table.
d) That peach is officially mine now.
e) Scanning kitchen left to right, you notice something that stands out – that looks like it’s in the wrong spot. Can anyone guess?
…did anyone say that it’s that fancy shmancy new millenium oven propped in the middle of a retro era?!! Awesome!
Yep, you’re right! We do like modern kitchens a lot, but we didn’t have the money to redo the counters and cabinets so we painted the cabinets. The homeowner had stenciled “home sweet home” on one wall and “my troubles are over for I am home” on the opposite wall — and that was the first thing Katherine painted over. I left out the refrigerator which is stainless steel on the front, black on the sides.
What a great kitchen! Love the yellow paint.
Thanks, definitely the brightest room in the house. Although, we like green, orange and yellow. It’s not as 70s as it sounds!
I absolutely love this post. First off, your kitchen has so much charm. I love the colors.. definitely relaxing and country. And that table made out of junk is my favorite. I love when items that aren’t used to their potential get a new home and a new idtentity. Wonderful job. I just love it.. warm, relaxing, and home. And I definitely need me a KitchenAid mixer
You’d be amazed what people leave on the curb down here. And yes KitchenAids rule.
Very nice kitchen.
Thanks, definitely bigger than the ones we had out West.
I love the amount of counter space – and natural light you have in the kitchen. I also love all of the wood furniture. You guys are welcome to come decorate my kitchen anytime.
Love it! The colors are actually the same as in my mom’s kitchen when I was growing up. It’s such a happy, warm color scheme.
Thanks, Kristy. When we moved in every room in the house was a different shade of beige.One of the first things we did was paint.
I can just feel all the warmth and love in this kitchen!
Thanks for sharing this ( and your recipes) with all of us!
Thanks, Perry!
Love your counter space but, more importantly, your cupboard space. My kitchen is seriously lacking in cupboards. I, too, detest electric ranges and find myself constantly moving pots & pans around because coils grow too hot. I couldn’t agree more about the cookware and feel the same way about good cutlery.
When we lived in San Diego we used the laundry room as a pantry and an armoire in the living room to store our pans. You’re right on the cutlery too.
What a wonderful place to work in…airy,light and lots of space. A great view to the outside from that fabulous table…Great photo’s showing us where all the great recipes are created! x
Thanks, Yvette.
Your have a very warm and inviting kitchen. I like that butcher block; I’ve never seen one of those in years!
Katherine probably got it eight years ago from a Crate & Barrel outlet. She gets me some great Christmas gifts.
You guys have a beautiful kitchen! The cheerful colors are so inviting and would make me want to spend a lot of time in there. And your date night spot is just the best! Thanks for sharing.
You’re welcome Karen.
You do realise how many people are dreaming about such a kitchen? I thought mine was spacious and big, but now I feel as I cooked in a tiny hole
Your kitchen looks very functional and I love the chopping board. The green is such a joyful colour! If you haven’t mentioned it, I would never guess so many things are made (congratulations on the table! I’m really impressed!) or transformed or bought second-hand. Great idea to show us the place when all the amazing food is created.
I wonder what Katherine might collect… such a tough question
I think I’ll go and clean my kitchen now!
The base of the table isn’t mine. It used to have a glass top, but it cracked being outside on our shaky deck so many years. A guy up the street put a giant butcher’s block counter on the curb and Katherine spotted it walking the dogs. We grabbed a dolly and started wheeling it home. The guy pulled up in his truck and told us he’d had second thoughts about leaving it on the curb so we started to wheel it back. He asked what I’d use it for and when I told him said that sounds great you go ahead. I just sanded it down to remove some paint and cut it down, few inches each side. The table is so heavy Katherine couldn’t move it into the house from the garage. Glad I saved the base.
Thank you, Greg for the sorty! Not only the table looks great, but it has a long history behind! I would love to have such furniture at home…
I meant: “thank you for the story” (sorry, I don’t know why my keyboard seems to work strangely when I am on your blog… the distracting food photos? the irresistible cocktails?)
Good thing you didn´t give us your address or you´d have come home to a kitchen full of bloggers waiting to be fed! Seriously, it´s beautiful and so lovely that you both enjoy to cook together. Until I moved to Spain (where everything is painted white) I always had a yellow kitchen . Feels like sunshine even on a dull day! Thanks for sharing your home with us.
Ha, I hope they all like dogs and bring some extra linens.
What a lovely and beautiful picture you have! Love the green cabinets and the chopping block!
Sorry I meant kitchen! Although your pictures are just stunning!!!
Thank you!
Greg, Katherine you wonderful couple! Thank you so much for the insight to your spectacular kitchen. It is everything I’d dreamed it would be and then some!
The Venice photos are gorgeous, the cabinets… Don’t even get me started on the KitchenAid! [I'm doing some heavy hinting!]
The spice rack is pretty unique too!
Wow, thank you so much! I would love to come prop up that bar one day and bring a slice of the UK to your bar…
Glad you like it. You’re welcome at our bar anytime!
You know when I rock up at ‘Little Rock [is that right?!] with a sign saying show me the way to the green kitchen… and I pitch up at your bar with shot glasses and my own attempt at homemade Limoncello – you may regret making that offer!
Don’t forget the banana suit!
Thank you for inviting us to your Open House. I can picture you and Katherine working together and never bumping into each other in this U-shaped kitchen. Love the colors and all the light too. The views outside your windows show lots of green and shade…lovely place to work.
Funny you said that. Katherine says how can we have all this space and still bump into each other?
Thanks for letting us all share in your space. Now when we see the finished results of your work, we can envision it getting done! Love all the personal touches, like Katherine’s parent’s spice rack and the beautiful “made-from-junk” table. Grace is anxiously awaiting the dog treat recipe ….
She’ll get to see our dogs too. I know she’s been waiting for that!
I love this post! Had to chuckle about the John Deere towels. I’ve got an antique side board and love what you’ve done with it for cookbooks. I’m really liking all those trees through the window. Colorado is such a high plains desert, things are a little sparse in my back yard. Love all those All-clads. I’ve only got two and cherish them. And last but not least that cutting board is to die for! What a great present. Thanks for sharing “where it all happens”.
Thanks, Lea Ann.
John Deere towels… hahaha!
I love the table you “made from junk”… it’s beautiful. Great kitchen too … looks so spacious and homely!
See we’re not mean to give them outhouse salt and pepper shakers. Although, I have nothing to do with that. Katherine found those in Memphis.
So now we know where all those amazing dishes come out from! This is my all time favorite post! Gorgeous kitchen. I love everything in it and a fantastic view. Roosters!!!
Thanks, Maris!
I love all your counter space! Your kitchen looks like a very comfortable place to be. (And oddly enough, I recognize that rooster in the last photo – I picked up a couple of small plates with him on them about 10 years ago – in a small antique shop in Mena, no less!)
Ha, it’s so funny how many people have ties to Arkansas.
What a lovely kitchen. I can almost smell the wonderful aromas coming from it!
Thanks, Eva.
What a lovely space to cook in! I love the green and all the homestyle items that you’ve done yourselves. Makes it feel so welcoming.
Ha, thanks. If you look close you can see the shim I added to the sideboard to keep the one door in place.
I love how intimate, functional, and inviting it all is. Thanks for the peak into this special place in your lives.
You’re welcome Judy.
Loved seeing your home-y and beautiful kitchen. I can feel the warmth and loves that goes into it and comes out of it. You and Katherine seem to have similar tastes in decor as well as food…that’s pretty cool.
Well, our prenup dictated she like my cooking. Ha, kidding. Most of of our rooms are pretty neutral. This is the brightest in the house.
Am very jealous of your large kitchen! Can’t wait to see how your recipe turns out too.
It is nice to have elbow room.
You guys have a beautiful kitchen. Thank you for sharing it! A kitchen can never have too much counter space. *asked in a whisper so Katherine doesn’t hear* – What’s wrong with your counter tops? It must be great fun having family and friends sitting chatting at the bar while you are busy in the kitchen.
Mandy
She hates the pinkish color and the material, formica maybe. They used it for a backsplash too. You know everyone wants granite these days.
Thanks for the peek inside your lovely kitchen! Some friends and I have been working on a joint kitchen-picture project, but it’s slow going so far. I think we all feel like we need to get our kitchens spic and span before we photograph them.
I don’t think ours was spick and span, but we did make sure there were no dirty dishes in the sink!
Loved this! Thanks for giving us a peek into your kitchen.
BTW: At 11:11 this morning, my post will feature a ROOSTER.
Uh oh, those are some giant roosters. We may need a bigger kitchen!
Love the outhouse salt ‘n pepper shakers – how great are those?? Glad to know my husband is not the only one who gathers from the curb – great refashioning job. Love your cozy date night dining space and the outdoor view in the last pic.
Thanks, Kelly.
What a fabulous blog! The genealogist in me loves the family stories – and pictures to accompany them! I love your kitchen – as others have said now there is a picture to have of you whipping up your wonderful recipes!
Thank you.
Your kitchen is beautiful – it has a little bit of everything: love, friends, stories, memories, and of course all the means to make great food.
That’s so sweet, thanks.
Thanks for sharing with us where all the magic happens! My wife, Craftyglutton, especially loves the color skeme. Of course I found myself focusing on the bottle of wine on the table…good choice.
Ha, it was funny that we picked a day we were cooking with port and drinking bubbly!
Guys your kitchen looks like such a wonderfully HAPPY place to be !!
Wow! Your kitchen is stunning. The green cupboards look amazing. I also love how personal it is with photographs from your honeymoon, the spice rack – a wedding present to your parents, etc. So lovely to see your kitchen – the best room in the house! Thank you.
What a nice and functional kitchen, I feel like I am invited into your lovely home.
Wow.. so you ARE having a good Sunday.. bet you are relaxing with that other bottle of champagne after cleaning for the last three days to get your kitchen so tidy and sparkly for the shots! Where did you hide all the STUFF! For the record I like the pot cupboard the best because I like shiny stuff! c
Ha, it was really good. It was last Sunday, no time to post then!
I love your kitchen. The green cabinets are a great touch. It’s very nice, yet down-to-earth as well. Thanks for sharing.
I’m gonna guess roosters! Love all the handmade furniture — very (very very) impressive. The green cabinets are pretty awesome too. Retro but with a modern spin. Looks like an amazing place to cook.
Ha, thanks it’s just the table and some repairs to the sideboard. I got an A in shop and home ec.
I have green kitchen cupboard envy. Love it all! Awesome looking kitchen to be hanging out in either cooking or being the support network and sitting at the bar.
…but no gas? Oh, condolences.
It was an adjustment.
What a great idea for a post. It feels like you have invited us into your home. What a treat, thanks for the glimpse!
You’re welcome Joshua. People probably weren’t expecting green cabinets.
I’m so envious of your adorable kitchen! It’s nice that I can now picture where you two create your delicious dishes!
So this is where it all happens! I love being able to view your kitchen and be able to actually visualize all your great recipes coming together! I have to comment on the great view outside; beautiful deck against the wooded land. No doubt its roosters Katherine collects and they are so fitting in this cozy kitchen. I love the knife holder too, I’ve always wanted one like that!
Thanks, Linda. That knife holder was a Bed, Bath & Beyond find I’m pretty sure.
Love it, thank you for sharing, it seems very you (s). The size and with the light it would be a special place to be creative, that shows in your kitchen and in what you post. Love it….RaeDi
Thank you! After years of tiny kitchens, it’s nice to stretch out.
Thank you for sharing this
I love how personal everything is..and as always your photography is amazing
Thanks.
Well done on the kitchen and the tour!
I absolutely love the rustic look and the green! I have green plant photos in my kitchen on a feature wall, green mugs on a “mug tree” stand and a green fruit bowl in the opposite corner. It looks so fresh. (And now I’ll admit, I pick up stuff left kerbside too, mainly tabletops! Shhh…)
It’s amazing what people leave on the curb here, rocking chairs, high chairs, work benches. Our tastes have gotten more discerning as we’ve gotten older too. Ha.
I do believe that a beautiful kitchen is being a origin of a delicious cooking meals…I loved your kitchen and I can know now where comes from all these beautiful recipes and inspirational kitchen notes… Thank you for sharing with us, dear Rufus and Katherina, with my love, nia
Thanks for letting us peek inside! What great space you have… and light! I know what you mean about the counter-tops. After 20 years of formica I just switched mine out for bamboo plywood. I love it! Still can’t put hot stuff down, but it is clean and “green” in its own way. I’m smitten with your sideboard… great piece!
Such a great idea to share where all the magic happens…you guys have a gorgeous kitchen! I’m all about the bright colors. Thanks for including some rooster paraphernalia in the photos too, always makes my day.
You did a great job with the colors in your kitchen! We looked at a home for sale that had green cabinets and let me say it was hideous! You did it perfectly, which is a challenge I think with green/yellow! Good work. Love the personal items and the stories behind them. I want to do something like this when we finally move into our new home next month- kind of a tribute to both kitchens, old and new…
That’d be great to see. Katherine thinks we’ll have to paint them white if we move, not that we’re planning to. But green cabinets aren’t really super popular.
Great kitchen and I could live with the green cabinets for a year or 10.
I love the colour of your kitchen, so fresh and bright. I’ve been trying to think of a good colour for ours and this apple green might be just the ticket! Lovely to see inside your house.
Thanks!
Love the kitchen! No wonder you are inspired to create those delicious-looking meals!
Thanks, Colline.
I happen to love John Deere colors…I have my own John Deere garden tractor that was a birthday present. I’m happy that you shared photos of your kitchen…its got so much atmosphere. I also love the roosters. People think they bring good luck to a kitchen.
It is always so neat to see what other bloggers kitchens look like. I love the cheerful colors! The view from the kitchen is amazing! I would love to have a nice wooded view like that! My kitchen overlooks a soy bean field!
I love your kitchen. It is so pretty. It brought back memories for me of my mother. She loved green and yellow in the kitchen and her kitchen remained those colors for years.
good god that’s a gorgeous kitchen, i am epic jealous.
What a great kitchen space – no wonder you guys are such prolific cooks, I would want to spend all my time in there too!
I love your color choices but those countertops would bother me too. The pan cupboard looks like a nightmare. Exactly the same at my house. Though recently I converted a shelved closet into pan storage. Now most of the pans are sorted by function, only 3 to a shelf. But I still have an undercarraige of pots, like in the picture.
We love our profesional cook pans. Had to take a loan out so we could get them all at once. Worth every penny.
I absolutely love your kitchen! You have so much counter space!!!
I never would have thought to paint cabinets that beautiful shade of green, but I LOVE it! Looks so bright and happy! I loled at the John Deere themed gift…
Love your kitchen! Recognize most of those cookbooks from my own, and just getting ready to leave for a month in a house outside Padua, near Venice. Kindred spirits?
Hold onto your seat. We were just in Kentucky! We did a day on the bourbon trail, which wasn’t enough.
Well, we’ll part company there. I must not be a real Kentuckian. I dislike both bourbon and UK basketball. But Steve makes up for it on both counts!
Ha, you won’t like some of our posts next week then!
Love this post! The personal touches give your kitchen so much character. It looks very inviting. I agree with you about good pots. I don’t know what I’d do without my gas stove though. Thanks for sharing!
I love this post! Seeing inside someones home is such a privilege and so fascinating. I adore those antique stools and I am SO jealous of all your counter space.
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I!
Thank you.
Great piece Johnathan! As you noted, the extreme corners of both reformed and non-reformed tend to frown on such exposition, but there is definitely an imbalance of do/don’t these days that needs to be tended to. My concern lies particularly with certain New Calvinists in SBC ranks who hang with “there is nothing unclean” to the point of antinomianism.
A young, (very) restless and reformed pastor in my area recently proclaimed from his pulpit to his 20s-30s congregation that he can only be good so long before he has a “sin splurge”! That’s the kind of preachin’ a young generation loves to hear from their pastor! In a conversation with his associate pastor, he said his “life verse” was Romans 8:1 (ESV): “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” I reminded him that my old KJV completed that passage with: “…who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” He opened his ESV and responded “Nope, it’s not there!” After an attempt to point out that this truth was embedded in the context of Romans 8, he clung to his view while I walked away with do/don’t still intact.
Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit YOU put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (emphasis added)
I have benefited quite a bit from the (real) Calvinist tradition. While I disagree with their soteriology, I don’t disagree with them about everything.
Since I admit to being shaped by that, and my fellow Trads around here will attest to my agreement on issues with them to which most Trads oppose (strong emphasis on church discipline being one example), I simply don’t get the YRR crowd.
I love passionate preaching on passages from Ezekiel, such as 36:22-38 and the stress of God doing all these things unilaterally to His people for His own name.
Now, many YRR pastors preach this passage as good as anyone, but I am perplexed that after all God has said about making people clean, giving them a new heart, new spirit, His Spirit, saving us, putting his statues and commandments in us and causing us to obey them, etc.’ they also sit around and talk about how wretched and dirty they are, how sinful they are, etc. (and smacks of fake humility to boot)
One wonders if God really can clean, if the new heart is really all that much better than the stone one, if He really can cause us to obey His statutes, etc. after listening to them.
Other than misinterpretations of Romans 7, or even Luke 18:13 and the like, we don’t see in Scripture all this wallowing around over how bad and sinful the authors are, and them “celebrating” it either. They don’t do that. Aside from the poetic expressions in the Writings, we don’t even see this much at all in the OT either. Perhaps the Biblical authors just aren’t as “humble” (cough at the misuse of the word) about their sinfulness as they ought to be according to some Calvinists.
I also find it funny (i.e. pathetic) how plenty of Calvinists are quick to “correct” (cough) everyone else on “what Luther really meant” when he said to sin boldly, but then use it as a lifestyle motto when critics aren’t looking, and taking it to mean exactly what the critics said Luther meant.
I guess, the Calvinist realizes the true extent of their sinfulness and are able to recognize that in contrast with God’s holiness. I absolutely love how Calvinism is demonized in this denomination, but only after it is completely misrepresented. I am guessing you have no problem singing “Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a WRETCH like me.” You can accuse people of misrepresenting Romans 7:24 and Luke 18:13, but what you must realize is that these statements are true. We are sinful and we do not deserve salvation but God saved us anyway. I am sure there are some groups that hold to anti-nomianism but it certainly appears that this is getting applied to all Reformed thinkers. A true believer recognizes his sin and he laments over it. As long as we are living and breathing we will continue to sin. We will recognize our sin and we will cry out to God “Wretched man that I am who will set me free from this body of death?” We also then also glorify Him for Christ who died for those sins “thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
I see you missed the point then.
I never said anything about not being repentant or sorrow over sin. What I do not do is wallow in vomit over it. I got no problem singing Amazing Grace. I was a wretch saved.
As for Romans 7, Luke 13:18, you need to read up on what those passages actually mean.
Well isn’t that kind of the entire point of Luke 18:13? Recognizing one’s own sinfulness? The Pharisee was thankful that he “obeyed the rules,” the tax collector on the other hand recognized his sinfulness. The thing is Johnathan you still are a wretch saved by grace. You said, “I was a wretch saved.” This insinuates that you are no longer a wretch which according to 1 Jn 1:8 would be a lie. Yes, a Christian obey’s the do’s and don’ts but why? I do not believe that it is out of obligation but out of appreciation.? At the same time I can be completely filled with joy knowing about His love for me. Now as a believer I know not to sin. I know that because of what Christ did on that cross He gave me the power to say no to sin once I was born again. Knowing this magnifies sin in my life and when I discover sin in my life of course it breaks my heart and repent only to sin again. Paul also said, “For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.” I don’t know about you but this recognition of sin makes me appreciate the cross all the much more. I do have one question though, how can your sin not make you want to vomit?
“Well isn’t that kind of the entire point of Luke 18:13? Recognizing one’s own sinfulness? The Pharisee was thankful that he “obeyed the rules,” the tax collector on the other hand recognized his sinfulness.”
Sort of. The tax collector was acting in humility seeking propitiation because he recognized the need for it. It is an expression of shame, not one of emotional guilt over his sinfulness. That was the point I was addressing.
“The thing is Johnathan you still are a wretch saved by grace. You said, “I was a wretch saved.” This insinuates that you are no longer a wretch which according to 1 Jn 1:8 would be a lie.”
Wrong, to say I have no sin would be a lie according to 1 John 1:8. God no longer views me as a wretch, so why should I still view myself that way?
“Yes, a Christian obey’s the do’s and don’ts but why? I do not believe that it is out of obligation but out of appreciation.”
Both/and, not an either/or. Slaves have obligations to their master. Given that our master is Christ, we can appreciate all the blessings of having such a master, and our obedience is an expression of gratitude.
?”
Vomit? Nope. What it does do is realize the shamefulness of me because of my actions for which he died to save me from the wrath I deserved for those actions.
“At the same time I can be completely filled with joy knowing about His love for me.”
Amen!
“Now as a believer I know not to sin. I know that because of what Christ did on that cross He gave me the power to say no to sin once I was born again.”
Yes.
“Knowing this magnifies sin in my life and when I discover sin in my life of course it breaks my heart and repent only to sin again.”
Of course, but this is a far cry from what I was debunking to which you responded.I was talking about people who sit around and wallow in their own vomit. The Bible knows nothing of this for believers. That is certainly not what the tax collector was doing.
“Paul also said, “For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.”
And Paul was using the rhetorical “I” to represent an unregenerate person.
“I don’t know about you but this recognition of sin makes me appreciate the cross all the much more.”
Certainly, but again, this is a far cry to what I was debunking to which you responded.
“I do have one question though, how can your sin not make you want to vomit?”
No. It doesn’t make you want to vomit either. I am sure you do not vomit constantly.
On the other hand, my sin shames me to myself, before others, before God, and makes me want to express sorrow, confess, and move forward in obedience.
You need to read up on the honor/shame dynamics in the Ancient Near East. This overly emotional state of “guilt” (as opposed to the Biblical meaning of judicial guilt and the disposition of shame that goes with it) is a modern, western, highly individualistic, overly introspective and existential phenomenon foreign to the mindset of ancient people, including Jesus and the tax collector in his parable.
Besides, the best thing to do to relieve your self-inflicted nausea is to stop sinning. ;)
Also Tommy, what I hope does not exist in your thinking, is some sort of premise or presupposition that the level of sincerity of one’s shame, remorse, sorrow, etc. one has over their sins, and the level of sincerity in their repentance and confession of those sins before God (and others) is somehow tied to how emotionally bad or emotionally guilty-feeling they become about these things.
Please tell me that is not how you think, since that is completely unBIblical rubbish and all.
I’m leaving the comment attached to this post b/c it won’t let me reply to the other one. As Christians we are not guilty, we are forgiven. Yes, we repent daily and we move forward daily but we must still recognize that we are sinners saved only by Grace. We do not deserve what God has done for us. If you want to know what leads to antinomianism it is having to light of a view on sin. If I could stop sinning believe me I would, but I can’t, not as long as I am living in this body of death.The nausea is recognizing my sin. It makes me sick to think that I could sin against God who sacrificed everything for me, when I am not worth it. I believe there is a major problem in the church today. So many pastors are more concerned about filling the pews than they are with feeding those already in them. As a result talk about sin has been downgraded and God has been made to look more like a weak old grandparent who is just crazy about you. What replaces talk about sin is the “do” list but it’s not your list out of Romans. Sure they may use a verse or two and then twist it in to some works that suit their cause. Then they will put it into practice by sending them out into the mission field so everybody can invite someone to church. Don’t forget to be mission minded. Instead of a discipleship class where the students learn doctrine, they sit in small groups and learn how to have a purpose driven life. The men might learn what it means to be wild at heart. The women may learn how to break free. The further the Gospel gets from the pulpit the less people care about sin. At one time the Gospel was central in the SBC but now it it is becoming more “seeker sensitive” and many, not all, but there are several who think that by tacking on an unbiblical altar call at the end of their service is sufficient. I fear that the SBC is quickly following in the footsteps of the PCUSA and ELCA. We have already began seeing the ecumenism creeping in considering that Liberty University invited Glenn Beck, a mormon, to deliver the commencement address. Okay, I may have gotten a little off topic but it is relevant. I have just noticed that man is elevated, God is lowered, and sin is reduced. The Gospel should be our focus and everything else will fall into place. We do not want to end up like the PCUSA and ELCA!
I agree with some of what you are saying, but some of it I find a bit odd (and much of which is sorely dated). For one thing, John Piper is as much a friend to Purpose Driven Life as anybody. Me personally, I am indifferent towards that kind of thing. For another, everything the Bible teaches is doctrine, and Jesus in the Great Commission commanded that we “teach them everything”, and finding one’s purpose in Christ as part of the Body of Christ is no less important than justification, eschatology, or whatever limited categories you define as “Doctrine”..
I don’t know anyone around these parts that sit light to sin though. Again, according to you, it seems that if one doesn’t speak in terms of being overly-emotional about something, they sit light to it. This is erroneous.
Also, I don’t find much “seeker-sensitive” stuff in the SBC either. That seems to be a more non-denom phenom. Not saying it is entirely absent from the SBC, but it certainly isn’t prevalent.
Commandments (dos and don’ts) aren’t works for their own sake though, they are commandments to be obeyed. I think sitting light to them leads to antinomianism more than anything else. Which is why “cheap grace” and the rest of it is associated with antinomianism, not sitting light to sin. It is very easy to sit light to sin when people do not pay much attention to the commandments and live by them so as to not sin.
As for Liberty inviting Glenn Beck, I don’t think that is a sign of ecumenism and capitulation to Mormon theology. That is absurd. Liberty is a big college with many concerns, social as well as the theological, and Christians and Mormons share many of the same concerns regarding American culture. The invite was more along those lines, not theological ones. It is not theological capitulation to Roman Catholicism to work with Catholics on pro-life issues, and so forth. I think the agreement with Beck was on social issues, not theological ones. Now we can discuss the merits from that angle, pro and con, since that would be the proper context; but not some bogus charge of capitulation and ecumenism with Liberty and Mormon theology.
Finally, the “alter call”…this gets old. There is nothing “unBiblical” about an “alter call” any more than there is anything “unBiblical” with passing around a collection plate in the middle of service. Come on, this is petty stuff. There is nothing wrong with providing opportunity to respond to the message, whether it be to deal with one’s sin, conversion, joining the church, or whatever else.
I really don’t care what John Piper thinks about the Purpose Driven Life it’s irrelevant and I didn’t even mention John Piper. Weekly offerings aren’t unbiblical. In fact there are plenty of examples of a weekly collection in the Bible. Are there any examples of Jesus saying or anyone saying “Every eye closed every head bowed please raise your hand if you want Jesus to come into your heart.” After 15 stanzas of Just as I am please come forward and repeat this prayer after me. This methodology was developed by one Charles Finney who was a heretic. As for joining together for social issues, it does confuse the Gospel. I say this indiscriminately considering Al Mohler signed the Manhattan Declaration. If you would just look at the ELCA and PCUSA you will see what I am talking about. Tolerance leads to acceptance, which leads to apostasy.
Where are these examples of weekly offerings taken by collection plate in the middle of every corporate service in Scripture?
Fallacious slippery slope arguments aside, ELCA and PCUSA have nothing in common with the SBC. Like the neo-orthodoxy and universalism of Barth, most of the modern heresies have had their birth in the Reformed traditions, as the examples above make obvious.
I wouldn’t worry about the SBC though, we already sent the liberals packing. ;)
A lot of methodology in the Bible is different, a lot of methodology in the modern era is different. Since I have written about this elsewhere, I won’t rehash much of it here, but methodology is not the issue. There is no one way in the Bible in which the Gospel is presented, nor one way in which conversions come about. Your whole argument is misguided, and sounds a lot like the arguments the CoC give against instruments used in worship. Your argument, like their argument, is not just bad, but, quite frankly, it is stupid. No offense.
It was stupid when Washer went on about it ten years ago, it was stupid when Platt parroted Washer a year ago, and it is no less stupid now than at any time before. At least Platt, regardless of his bogus spin after the fact, realized his error and signed the Resolution concerning the sinner’s prayer, because he realized he stuck his foot in his mouth, just as the majority of the SBC said he did. Bashing alter calls and the sinner’s prayer gets no traction in most SBC circles.
As for “every head bowed, every eye closed…”, well, I wouldn’t do it that way, but it is useless to get all bothered about it, so I don’t, and you shouldn’t either.
I don’t know what the anxious seat has to do with sinner’s prayers or “alter calls”.
Ya know what else? All an “alter call” is, after all, is just a popular phrase given for the time allotted at the end of a message, whether at a church service, revival, or some other public proclamation of the Gospel, to give an opportunity for people to respond to what they have heard…KIND OF LIKE THE TIME PETER ALLOWED AT THE END OF HIS SERMON IN ACTS 2 FOR THE PEOPLE TO RESPOND AND INQUIRE “BROTHERS, WHAT MUST WE DO”!!!
Sheesh…let it go brother.
As such, I find this fictive bit of historical reconstruction and connection of Finney’s anxious seat to “alter calls” highly dubious. Besides, many Methodists were doing something similar in methodology already. The methodology being providing seats for those who wish to respond and inquire.
So it appears that your gripe is about providing seats. Wow, talk about petty…
Again, it isn’t “alter calls” that is the problem. You may not like it, you may not like how some go about “alter calls”, but that is hardly a concern worth getting uppity about. However people go about it, it isn’t like the concept of allotting time at the end of the message has no basis in Scripture. Far from it.
Lastly, working with others on social issues does not confuse the Gospel. This is mere assertion, and has no basis in reality. The Gospel isn’t about Republican or conservative social values for which Liberty and Beck are in agreement. Again, the proper context to discuss the pros and cons of this is in that arena, not the baseless assertions regarding the arena of doctrine.
No the Bible is not specific on what time the collection is to be made but it is clear that we are to give. (1 Cor 16:1-2, 2 Cor 9:6-7) As for the “altar call” in Acts 2 the people asked a question and Peter responded with a call to repentance. He didn’t instruct them to ask Jesus into their hearts either, he said “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Quite frankly your arguments are weak and unbiblical and I am sorry that you find that my arguments are stupid but I prefer to use the correct contextualization for my foundation. I wasn’t aware that Mitt Romney also spoke at Liberty but he spoke about much more than “conservative values.” I also found it ironic that there was a banner hanging behind him that said “Training champions for Christ.” You say that it does not confuse the Gospel but I will certainly beg to differ, considering both Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney are known by the multitudes to be Mormons. Liberty University also has the reputation of being a Christian university, not a conservative republican university. Inviting someone to speak is an endorsement of that individual, and 2 Cor. 6:14 clearly says, “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?” So I would say that this has everything to do with doctrine and not the political arena.
“No the Bible is not specific on what time the collection is to be made but it is clear that we are to give. (1 Cor 16:1-2, 2 Cor 9:6-7) ”
Yes, we know the Bible says to give. That’s not what I asked, so again, your gripe about method is moot.
“As for the “altar call” in Acts 2 the people asked a question and Peter responded with a call to repentance.”
Which is precisely how I defined “alter call”. A time at the end of the message for response and inquiry.
“He didn’t instruct them to ask Jesus into their hearts either, he said “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.”
Again, this is a moot matter of methodology. He did not tell them to “believe” in that quote either. Again,, “ask Jesus into your heart” never has and never is the only thing said about Jesus in any modern Gospel presentation. I don’t use that phraseology, but there is nothing wrong with people who do toss that in there. Just like there was nothing wrong with Peter telling people to “be saved” or “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.” All such things imply faith and Lordship anyway…
So again…moot.
“Quite frankly your arguments are weak and unbiblical and I am sorry that you find that my arguments are stupid but I prefer to use the correct contextualization for my foundation.”
Please demonstrate they are weak and unBiblical, don’t just assert it. You’ve done nothing but make empty assertions your “supporting arguments”, if we can even call your empty rhetoric such, fail at demonstrating.
Anyway, Liberty is a lot of things, and inviting Mormons to speak at a graduation says nothing about compromising doctrine. They not guests who were lecturing on doctrine. So…beg to differ all you like, but you still haven’t said anything noteworthy. You are being too simplistic in your idea of “endorsement.” Where has Liberty endorsed Mormon theology? Nowhere. They invited people to speak at a graduation ceremony. I don’t think that means they are unequally yoked with them. Liberty is not a church, and Beck and Romney aren’t idols in the Lord’s sanctuary. They are speakers at a commencement.
Worse argumentation doesn’t make your already bad arguments any better.
Just so were clear on you knowing what you are talking about, what years did you attend Liberty?
I have never attended Liberty, nor would I. I have however attended the Master’s College and am planning on going to Southern at some point in the future, but I do not see the relevance of this. Is it impossible for me to make an observation without attending that school, especially when it is all over the internet. No Liberty University is not a church but it does have a statement of faith, which is contrary to that of the Mormon faith. There would be no problem if Liberty was not associated with the church but it is, and therefore should not have invited a Mormon to speak. I have continued to give you scripture supporting my arguments but you continue to reject them based on your personal opinion. One cannot claim to have a strong argument when Scripture is left out of it. Sure, in some cases methodology is irrelevant and people can decide for themselves which they prefer, such as music style and type of dress, etc. However, with that said I must bring up the idea of “altar calls” once again. I have seen some who have done what Peter did in Acts 2 but also I have seen mass manipulation taking place right here in the SBC. I do not have a problem with a benediction that says, “We are commanded to repent and be baptized,” or “repent and believe.” What I do have a problem with is pastors using manipulative wording in order to get people to the altar in order to repeat a superficial prayer and then proclaiming that they are saved. One of the most manipulative in recent years, that I have seen, would have to be Steven Furtick at Elevation Church. He even developed a list instructing pastors how to initiate “spontaneous baptisms,” although I do not see how it would be spontaneous if it were planned. I also found it interesting that you said, “You’ve done nothing but make empty assertions your “supporting arguments”,” My assertions and observations have been based on Scripture, I have given you scripture references but you simply deny that is what the Scripture says. You somehow believe that by saying my argument is “empty” my argument is void. I am not quite sure how you believe ad hominem attacks invalidate my argument or support your claims, but you continue to do so.
Sadly, I keep demonstrating your texts are out of context and non-applicable to that which you try to relate them.
In your mind, a Christian institution with a statement of faith means that such an institution should not invite a Mormon to speak on matters unrelated to doctrine. Fine, that is your opinion, but that is ALL it is.
Also in your mind is that because some things, like “alter calls” are abused, we should dump the whole thing? Fine, that is your opinion, but that is ALL it is, aside from being a non-sequitur.
“The Christian life is an expression of God’s grace rather than a check-list of dos and don’ts. It is an overflow of Jesus Christ. That is what Christianity is all about – freedom to enjoy the life God has given us, and freedom to share this truth with others.” – Charles Stanley, Living the Extraordinary Life: 9 Principles to Discover It, page 28.
Charles Stanley misses the pointthe and creating an either/or qhere a both/and exists.
Ao, rather thanthan follow thethat error ofis Stanley, one shouldof say that it is an expression if God’s grace by living a life patterned after the dos and don’ts mentioned in Scripture, just as Jesus did.
As Dallas Willard points out, grace is not opposed to effort, but opposed to earning.
Why would any Christian not want to follow the dos and dont’s in Scripture? They are a blessing, and an expression of love for God and are not a burden (1 John 5:3).
I don’t disagree with you.
Just pointing what several obvious non-Calvinists say. Max took the comment thread to Calvinism quite quickly.
I got ya (please forgive the phone if this comes out jumbled).
My disagreement is with Stanley and the ridiculous statement.
This isn’t a Reformed issue specificly, or non-Reformed issue. It is a general issue in evangelicalism. I know many Calvinists and non-Calvinists who loath antinomianism, and both who champion it, if by action if not by outright affirmation.
Bahnsen, Reformed, raked Moo, also Reformed, over the coals on this issue in a Five views book.
Oh, this is not simply a Calvinism issue. I heard cheap grace preached all over the mega industrial complex for years. The approach was different than Calvinism which seems to imply that we cannot help but sin all the time after salvation and need to be constantly saved by preaching the Gospel to ourselves every day. .A perpetual Justification of sorts. Which leads to victims of crimes being told they are sinners, too, like the criminal. Moral chaos reigns.
There seems to be a false dichotomy of sorts with both as in “sinless perfection or constant actionable sinning”. Where is the growing in Holiness? The New Creature in Christ?
Stanley’s statement is ridiculous but i have not listened to him in many years, either.
“If name means character, then the character of Jesus, and not some set of rules, is the standard for our Christian life. The Bible is not primarily a rule book with a list of do’s and don’ts. Rules are for kids. The more immature a child is, the more rules his parents must lay down for him. … The greater the maturity, the fewer the rules. … This is a higher plane of living.” – Adrian Rogers, The Power of His Presence, page 17.
Yep. Popular pastors express popular erroneous catchphrases.
Paul says in 1 Cor. 7:19 that keeping the commandments is what counts.
If you read me on this site, you should know that I’ll pick on non-Calvinist folks when I think they are wrong, and so do the other contributors.
Rogers’ qualification “primarily” is duly noted though. On this, he is right. The Bible is not that.
However, he is wrong in everything else he says here. Jesus Himself, along with the other NT authors had no problem with the word “commandments”, which are, at bottom, rules. The more we mature, the better we keep them. THAT is freedom.
I like Rogers though generally, but no one holds him infallible around these parts.
Matt, Perhaps you think all of us follow specific gurus? I was actually taught as a child in the SBC NOT to follow man but to be a Berean.
Indeed, if Calvinists would only critically examine their leaders as well like we do…
Interesting. 95 of them. Perhaps you should find a door somewhere and nail them? Seems appropriate!
I think we sometimes let our theology cause us to be blind to simple scriptural teachings. The Bible is filled with commands, which we are to obey.
Of course, the power to obey the commands does not come from us, but from the Spirit of Christ indwelling us and producing the fruit of God. But that doesn’t change the fact that we have commands in Christ.
Interesting post.
Right, God enables in the Spirit, but God doesn’t obey for us. We must do that. Sometimes people think, wrongly, that if God does something in us, He then does everything for us. This is not only wrong, but un-Biblical and goes against passages of Scripture where we are exhorted to put to death deeds of the flesh, put on the new man, sanctify ourselves, etc.
Yep, who’s supposed to kill the flesh, put on the new man, and walk in newness of life? We are, as empowered by the Holy Spirit … to live as overcomers not overcomed. This is not professing works righteousness, but life in the Spirit.
Amen.
Johnathan, I would caution making heroes out of some holiness preachers. Many have bound their members in legalism. Many holiness have preached fine sermons against TV, CPUs, makeup, going to public schools, etc… When we view the Christian life as a set of regulations we miss the mark. Jesus made an incredible statement in John 6 – the work of the Father is to believe in the One He sent. What a liberating statement. The Holy Spirit dwells in the believer. He will lead us in our society and culture to avoid that behavior that disgraces God and to embrace that which honors the Lord. For example, I will not go to a movie. Did I find this in a rule book? The Spirit using God’s Word led me to such a conviction. Love God first and then man and the do’s and dont’s will not be an issue.
One thing to do is not confuse holiness preachers with legalist preachers as if the two were even remotely similar. They are not, even if the antinomian crowd incorrectly labels the former as the latter.
When we don’t view Christian life as the obedience of faith, to commandments scattered all throughout the Bible, we certainly miss the mark. That is sin, and after all, sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4).
The problem today isn’t too many “rules and regulations” in Christian life, as if stating it that way wasn’t bad enough since the Bible uses words such as commands, commandments, etc. without apology; rather, the problem is a lack of emphasis on the commandments and downplaying them. Which is what happens when goofy, ridiculous statements like the one under consideration here are bandied about. Or even trying to “relieve” the stress on them and “temper” the talk of commandments and obedience with talk of grace, as if grace is in tension with obedience, or contrasted with it. That, of course, is rubbish. That God has given us His Word to live by and obey IS ITSELF a grace of God.
The certificate of debt has been erased, and since we are in the Spirit, we follow the Spirit and not the letter. Which is a good thing since the Law is Spiritual anyway. Since it is not against us, Jesus’ commandments are therefore for us. We should be all for following them.
Of course, the Bible isn’t a rulebook any more than the Bible is a doctrine book. But the Bible contains “rules” (sigh), just as it contains doctrine. Men and women devise Doctrine Books from the texts, and so this post serves as a kind of “rule book” from the texts.
I reject the notion that obedience simply happens on its own. Scripture rejects this in its exhortations (1 and 2 Corinthians are good examples). Our experience rejects this in our own observation. God enables us to obey, He does not do our obeying for us though. The commandments will always be an issue so long as they are downplayed in importance or ignored altogether. Suggesting that if we just “love God”, obedience happens upon itself in our lives is not what the Bible teaches. Loving God IS obedience. That is what the Bible teaches. (1 John 5:3) The Spirit leads, but we must follow and not resist the Spirit’s leading (Eph. 4:30, 1 Thess. 5:19). It is fine to say the Spirit leading you in God’s word leads you to this or that, but you had to actually follow the Spirit and actually read God’s word. That is the point I am making here.
Anyway, legalism sucks. So does works righteousness. Obedience does not suck though. The Bible has enough dos and don’ts so that I don’t bother with any “rules” devised by men who misuse it to promote lifestyles the Bible never commands or implies.
Johnathon, in your opinion, is the antinomian crowd very large in the SBC?
The answer to that is more than I know. I am not informed enough about the entire ranks of the SBC to render an opinion of any value.
Now, having said that, I think that in any Christian culture, such as the Bible belt where I live, strip clubs are full of “Christians”, if you will. Many people will tell you they are Christians around here, but in a Christian culture, that may just be an identifier relative to the social background of the general populace. In such cultural settings, antinomianism is rampant.
“One thing to do is not confuse holiness preachers with legalist preachers …”
The reason we don’t have much holiness preaching these days in SBC ranks and elsewhere in Christendom is that we don’t have a holy leadership in most places. The pulpit won’t preach against the sins of the pew if they are themselves living in the defeat of sin. You can’t help someone out if you are still in! Simply gathering in huddles to confess sins one to another (wallowing in vomit) won’t cut it …the 21st century version of that kind of “repentance” only brings you back to the vomit over and over. The desperate need of the hour is for the church to genuinely repent (both pulpit and pew), but I don’t see much movement in that direction. We need the gift of tears that the Puritans talked about … a godly sorrow that worketh repentance over our sin and rebellion. God give use holy holiness preachers again!
Great post. It is also important to remember that “we” also are to “put on” the armor of God. I think there is a missing of what “we” are to do these days. I have been tracking the number of commands in the Bible that are to be lived out in our Christian walk with Christ, via His power. The number is growing and to me humbling and shocking. If I love Christ as I should, I should allow Him to work through me to live out His life desire for me.
Great post!
Indeed. I don’t think we stress the “we” enough in a lot of things. There is too much :”I” in American evangelicalism, and individualism mixed with too much existentialism has a lot to with it. It has led to many congregations wondering aimlessly when it comes to fulfilling their calling, since they are each overly concerned with their “personal relationship” to the point they ignore their corporate relationship.
Maybe my next post will tackle this whole “personal relationship” business.
Anyway, I am well aware that I don’t love Christ as I should, and need to love Christ more, as I should, so that His work in me can be brought out by me more, like it should. But this will be the case for all of us until we are glorified and know perfectly as we are known. In the mean time, we die daily and follow Him. :)
Thank You Brother for your article. As I read & study the letters of Paul, Peter, James, & the
others in the New Testament, I am energized & excited by what we as Christians are called to
do. We have the Greatest Gift the World has ever seen! The gift of eternal life IN CHRIST,
the joy of being an ambassador of & for Christ, & the ministry of reconciliation to a world of
lost people who are so in need of what God has for them. Do’s & Don’ts? For sure!
We represent Christ! We are to incarnate Christ in our lives and in all we do.
I am 67 years old. I have been a Christian for over 50 years. Yes, it is sometimes
very hard even with the Holy Spirit’s aid & guidance to live this calling. That is why we are told
“do not grow weary in doing good”! If Paul had to “strive” what makes us think that we should
be excluded in that same thing.
Great paper Brother Pritchett!
God bless,
John G.
Thank you sir. I have to keep these sorts of things right in front of me at all times or I do not represent Christ as I ought. Obviously, I fail more often than I should, but we are all works in progress. The key is to remember that reading Scripture is a humbling thing, and we ought to pay attention to God”s expectations rather than discard them.
Dos and don’t's are unique to the Christian as the unregenerate care nothing for the Do’s and are unconcerned about the don’t's. For the Christian, the primary Do is “Love one another.” Getting in the way are all those things that our flesh grew accustomed to by living in the world as we grew up and which continue to entice the Christian through his flesh (as Paul explains in Romans 7). The do’s and don’t's are exhortations to be holy and warnings against temptations.
Christianity is not really about Do’s and Don’t's. Christianity is about Christ The reality is that people come to Christ out of the world and shedding the things of the world is not always easy. It is easy to give up the murder, rape, and pillaging, but harder to control one’s thoughts which always seem to be easy prey for Satan. If a person thinks that doing the Do’s and not doing the Don’t's is what Christ is all about, he has missed the point.
Speaking of missing the point, I think you have as well.
The main central point of Christianity is that Jesus is the Messiah and the world’s true Lord. What I think the statement “Christianity is not about a bunch of do’s and don’ts” implies is that those dos and don’ts aren’t important as “having a personal relationship with Jesus” (whatever that means) and the like. The statement is a popular sentiment that erroneously downplays the importance of obedience and holiness and reflects antinomianism tendencies.
The Primary “DO” is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. THEN, love your neighbor.
However, God has defined love for Him as obedience. (1 John 5:3, see also John 15:10,14)
How many of your personal relationships are based on “you are my friend if you obey my commands?” The “personal relationship” with Jesus is one of love, but Jesus has framed love in obedience to dos and don’ts. ;)
Christianity in general is about several things, and dos and don’ts are certainly among them. We are saved by grace through faith for a purpose. None of this offends the doctrine of justification by faith alone, but it certainly offends cheap grace, antinomian tendencies, easy-believism, and hokum sentimentality about a feel-good, a la cart Christianity.
So, no, I am not saying Christianity is all about, or even mainly about dos and don’ts. That wasn’t my point.
And, no Christ is not “all” about doing the dos and not doing the don’ts…but Christ certainly IS about YOU doing them. He is your King, and in the words of Metallica, “obey your master”. ;)
Romans 7 is certainly not about Paul, or the life as a Christian. It is prosopopeia concerning the unregenerate man. The Romans 7 man (the rhetorical “I”) is at war, in a body of death, a prisoner, no ability to do good, etc.. This is contrasted with Romans 8 where YOU (Rom. 8:2…other mss read “me”) the regenerate in Christ have life, peace, walk in the Spirit, are free, etc. But, that is a different topic altogether. Even the Reformed theologian Robert Reymond knows this. ;)
All that is to say that, hence, statements like “Christianity is not really about Do’s and Don’t’s” is a bit ridicolous.
It isn’t “ALL” about that, but it is “really” about that as much as it is about anything else, generally speaking of course.
Rom,”
(emphasis added)
Johnathan:
Jesus summed up all the do’s and don’t's — the totality of the Law, if you will — by saying love God and love your neighbor. Rescanning your 95 points, they all seem to fall into the two categories Jesus noted.
Whereas a number of excellent points have been made thus far, I get tickled at us all when we ‘overanalyze’ the simplicity of these 95 commands. They all apply to every believer who would claim the name of Christ, other theological convictions notwithstanding.
Thx for these 95 reminders, I think ;^> — Norm
Indeed they do reflect Jesus’ summation.
Of course, Jesus summing them up doesn’t mean Jesus reduces them down so that if we just love God and our neighbor, these things will naturally outflow from them without effort on our part. We are enabled, but we are not inactive. Were that the case, these would all be indicatives rather than imperatives. .
It is important to keep these things in front of us to celebrate. They are a blessing. They teach us to be the human beings God intends us to be. God is certainly smarter than we are, so we should heed the dos and don’ts in Scripture since they are there for our benefit, and not for our burden.
Great post brother! I happened to ask our adult Sunday School group on Sunday morning if they thought that there were any “dos” and “donts” in the Scriptures for believers under the Grace of God. We came to the conclusion that there are many. Thanks for pointing it out to us all.
No problem.
I remember having a similar experience in a SS class years ago when our class was asked by our teacher this same kind of question. I was in my early twenties, and was one of those champions of mediocrity in terms of Christian living. I kept thinking I would love Jesus and do what I wanted, and eventually one day I would find myself being more obedient and less of a sinner. I was taught that God does everything and we are just on the ride. The teacher shell-shocked me and the rest of the class with the commandments of Scripture in the NT, and told us to basically shut-up, grow up, and obey King Jesus.
That teacher also happened to be my dad, who was a great man of God (and a Calvinist, by the way). :)
You are welcome. I hope to do this for all 27 books of the New Testament.
I am sure someone like rhutchin will complain, “You just turned the Bible into bunch of dos and don’ts” if I do it, but that misses the point of the blessing of obedience.
They are in Scripture, and if a person reads Scripture they would know that. I think it would no different than systematizing proof-texts of given topics for purposes of doctrine. The Bible isn’t a systematized set of doctrines either, but people make those kinds of arrangements from the Bible. So, why not do the same for the dos and don’ts…
Hello Johnathan,
Your initial post and following comments remind me of when I had first become a Christian. As a new believer I of course had this erroneous idea that Christianity is not about do’s and don’t idea. I was fortunate to have a good early mentor who dealt with this false idea with the following ideas. First, the Lordship of Christ doctrine, he is the Lord; we are His servants, so we live a life of obedience to Him and His commands. Second, if our heart is right, then his commands are not a burden but a delight (he showed this from David’s love of the law and delight in it as seen in the Psalms). Conversely, if your heart is not right then you will view His commands as a burden and not a delight (i.e. the problem is not in God’s commands but in our hearts). Third, His commands are meant to bless. They are not merely given so that he can boss us around. No, they are given to bless our lives.
To give one quick example of how these things work together. Christian husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That means that we are to be servants to our wives willing to sacrifice ourselves for them. Now if your heart is not right you want to boss your wife around, demand to be in control of things, you want her to serve you (cf. how some nonChristian husbands [and sadly even Christian husbands] are towards their wives, cook, clean house, meet my every need, be my chief servant . . .). If your heart is right you delight in being a servant to your wife, you put her needs ahead of your own. And wives know the difference, they much more appreciate having someone who truly cares for them and puts them ahead of them rather than someone who delights in “Lording it over them.” If you delight in this command, and joyfully obey it, your marriage will be much stronger and a witness to others about what Christian obedience looks like (hopefully I myself am modeling this well in my own life especially for my daughter). So in joyfully obeying this command you are practicing the Lordship of Christ over you, your heart is right, and you and your marriage will be blessed. And this kind of thing is true of all of God’s commands, if your heart is right and you joyfully obey His Word.
Robert
Amen…
Though, we must also admit Jesus and Paul could get bossy at times…James too, of course. :)
I agree with your general assessment regarding antinomianism. However I disagree with the idea of casually discarding teaching justification truths as they relate to sanctification. I would also warn against generalizing and over simplifying sanctification. One persons prescription to help them grow in grace is sometimes different from another’s and bible teachers and Counsellors need to be careful to make wise and thorough diagnoses.
Where did the idea of casually discarding teaching justification truths as they relate to sanctification? Why warn against generalizing and over simplifying sanctification?
Who is doing either? Certainly no one around here. What is happening is considering one issue without having to say everything about all aspects of Christian theology just to discuss one issue.
It is also worth mentioning that sanctification doesn’t simply equal better obedience to commandments anyway. Sanctification is total growth up into Christ, not merely better obedience as time passes.
The Bible is, on the other hand, simple and general about one thing though: Obey King Jesus. Period.
Nothing wrong with keeping that point simple. ;)
The foundation of santification is justification. Read the Greek of Romans 6:7 “For he who has died has been freed from sin.” It could just as easily be translated “JUSTIFIED FROM SIN” since what is translated freed here is the very same word translated “justified” in 26 places in Romans and other places in Paul’s letter. So the point is that for Paul, our santification flows from our being justified by faith.
Indeed.
Johnathan,
I enjoyed reading your article as well as interactions with your readers. Good work. Blessings, brother.
In Him,
Adam
Hello Max,
What is a “sin splurge”? What exactly was this pastor claiming?
This sounds rather bizarre and in my experience I haver heard of this concept being preached. Could you elaborate on what this is? Thanks.
Robert
Hi Robert,
“Sin splurge” was a new phrase for me as well. You never know what these YRR folks will come up with next! In this particular case, the pastor had earlier confessed to his congregation that he struggled with lying (fired from a church for that earlier). He also had a problem with pornography. He confessed that he could only be good for so long before he sinned again … before he returned to the vomit (as Johnathan put it earlier).
Robert, we have a lot of young pastors in SBC ranks … influenced by the likes of Mark Driscoll … who simply do not need to be in the pulpit until they gain victory over sin.
The do’d and don’ts are so that we might live together in this world, as best as is possible for sinners, and to expose the fact that there’s not a one of us who is up to the task. To show us our need of a Savior. That’s the job of the law.
Then that gospel Word frees us, liberates us, and gives us new life…again and again and again.
Thanks.
I agree, Someone once told me that God would never ask us to “do” something we couldn’t do. The whole time I was thinking about His Law. He has always told us to do or not to do, and we have always failed Him. But you’re right it does make us see our need for a Savior.
“And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.”– 1 Jn 1: 3 (NASB) –an obedience problem often results in an assurance problem.
Brother Mike , would you care to explain “obedience problem” for me, & how it may result in an
assurance problem”? I am not asking inorder to debate, there is enough of that allready. I just would like know more of what you mean>
Thank You, & God bless.
John G.
Not quite sure what he meant, but I think if one has an unhealthy obedience problem that never improves over time, they should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.
We need to balance our personal assurance with personal examination, just as Paul says, and as 1 John as a whole implies. Such persistent, unhealthy obedience problems should give someone an assurance problem. On the other hand, having an assurance problem doesn’t necessarily entail they indeed have a salvation problem though. It is important to remember that as well.
This is why all the emotionalism needs to be set aside when it comes to assurance, our sinfulness, etc. People need to evaluate these things, and themselves, in light of the relevant data in Scripture and in the company of others who love and profess Jesus. That, more than any “feelings” is the proper course of action.
So would you say that you are less of a sinner now than you were a year ago?
In one sense, yes. One can be a sinner, and yet at the same time be less of a sinner than they used to be if they sin less frequency.
In another sense, no. If one sins, then they are a sinner regardless of the frequency.
So it depends on the sense you mean.
I disagree. I don’t think it depends on the sense.
“if one sins, then they are a sinner regardless of frequency.”
I agree with this statement. Scripture says that if we break one commandment, then we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Keeping track of our “improvement” is a waste of time and takes our eyes from Christ and His promises.
Your misunderstanding the James text as to how it relates to your original question aside, I don’t think is is logically possible to disagree with me in the other sense.
If you sinned 50 times yesterday, and 40 times today, there is a sense that while still a sinner, you were less a sinner today than yesterday.
Examining our progress and growth is not at all a waste of time.
We all called in Scripture to maturity and grow up in Christ in our sanctification.
“Your misunderstanding the James text”
What James text?
“If you sinned 50 times yesterday, and 40 times today, there is a sense that while still a sinner, you were less a sinner today than yesterday.”
Not if sin is a condition.
“We all called in Scripture to maturity and grow up in Christ in our sanctification.”
Maturity is depending more and more on Christ and His work, and less on ourselves. It was in one of his later epistles that Paul called himself the chief of sinners.
Maturity = I know that in me, nothing good dwells.
Immaturity = Look at how much better I am than I used to be.
Christ IS our sanctification.
In Scripture, sin is literally (ontologically) a crime, and metaphorically a reigning power.
Contrary to popular opinion, sin is not the spiritual equivalent of having herpes.
What is the evidence that one trusts more and more in Christ?
“Maturity = I know that in me, nothing good dwells.”
Actually, maturity is getting Scripture right. “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh” (Romans 7:18)
But then look to Romans 8:9! “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you…”.
“Immaturity = Look at how much better I am than I used to be.”
Agreed, which is why such has never been advocated here. Such statements to others (who else would one ask to look other than others?) is a bit immature. What has been advocated is self-examination. Self-looking, as it were.
Hence, maturity would be “I need to look if I am much better than I used to be.”
Growing up in a very conservative Southern Baptist Church, I basically caught the idea from the preachers, teaachers, etc. around me that Christianity was about three things: getting saved, keeping a list of rules and regulations until you die, and then you go to heaven. Some of these rules were found in Scripture (sexual purity until marriage for example) but there were also mixed into this non-Biblical rules (you must wear a tie to church, Christian music could not sound remotely like “rock music”, etc.). When I first listened to preachers and teachers that talked about the concept of walking with God (and the evidence of Scripture confirmed this)it was a radical notion that there was something more to the Christian life. As I went into college and realized that some of these rules had no Scriptural basis, it threw everything I had been taught into question. Thankfully through the guidance of Christian professors, pastors and others, along with reading those who taught walking with God in a personal relationship, I was able to find out that Christianity wasn’t just rules and regulations but was a much deeper and God honoring life. None of those who taught walking with God de-emphasized Scriptural commands but rather showed those commands to be not just a checklist so I can feel good about my spirtuality today but rather a path of freedom in Christ.
That is said to give context to why I was greatly alarmed when I read the title of your post as I am very concerned about unbiblical legalism spreading throughout SBC life (unfortunately, you can always find it). The phrase you find so objectionable is usually, in the context I’ve always been familiar with, used to defeat the notion that rules and regulations (many from outside the Bible) are the sum total of the Christian life. This is probably, I believe , the proper context to understand the Charles Stanley and Adrian Rogers quotes objected to earlier. And many Christians in the area where I live are still wrapped in a “rules are all there is” mentality.
So in closing, I think your post may be taking the “objectionale phrase” to mean something different than what it really means.
Well, experience is anecdotal.
I usually find the phrase as some sort of catchphrase to De-emphasize something the Scriptures highlight quite often. The dos and don’ts relate to how we are to live as Christians.
I am certainly opposed to legalism. I am also opposed to the notion of “personal relationship” if by that one means that they can define the nature of that relationship with Jesus the same way they define all their personal relationships for themselves, which is exactly what people do in personal relationships (they define them for themselves). This is a real danger, and we see it all the time in people. Modern Americans usually have no frame of reference what it is to be a slave, serving a King. In any case, along with the blessings of being adopted sons and daughters, and co-heirs with Christ, we are still slaves and subjects to the King of Kings.
There are no shortage of verses posted around here that emphasize the call to obedience to commands, and the phrase, “Christianity is not about a bunch of dos and don’ts” lends to the idea that there isn’t any, or that following Christ is not about that. However, it is about that. Among other things, Christianity is about loving God, and that is defined in Scripture as obeying commandments. Hence, Christianity is something about a bunch of dos and don;ts. and the Bible is full of them.
Anyone who mistakes the dos and don’ts in the Bible for legalism says exactly the opposite of what the Scripture says about the commands. The Bible says they are not a burden. Legalism is a burden.
The Bible doesn’t say “rules and regulations”. The Bible uses the words commandments without apology. Sure, I am all for dumping any “rules and regulations” the Scriptures never state or imply. But the many that aren’t from the outside, but found in Scripture, we are exhorted to live by and obey. As I stated in another reply, with 95 in just the Book of Romans alone, the Bible has more than enough to be shaped by, we don’t need more imposed from without.
I have never suggested here that following the commandments is the total sum of the Christian life. They are indeed, however, a very big part of it, and this part gets downplayed in a Christian culture that highlights “personal relationship”, whatever that means (and something not stated in Scripture), and an a la cart approach to some vague form of “believing in Jesus” of whatever. The Scripture knows nothing of following Jesus by resting in cultural sentiments, such as the ones offered by Rogers and Stanley, and frequent affirmations to doctrinal propositions with no visible Christ-like character developed in the Spirit by obedience to the commands.
“…I think if one has an unhealthy obedience problem that never improves over time, they should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.”
Yup. unfortunately today that person is likely to be told to rely on their “moment of decision” rather than evaluate whether they are walking the walk.
I agree with your point Mike. I have also seen a lot of people either 1) Relying on their decision. or 2) focusing so much on their works, such as going to church, etc.
Brother Mike, my disobedience grieves me & pushes me to 1John 1:8-10, & I am aware that
by my sinful actions I have grieved the Holy Spirit. But my assurance is not in question.
God bless,
John G.
What is the basis of your assurance?
Ross wrote: What is the basis of your assurance.
Answer: “Jesus’ blood and righteousness.”
What else would one base his or her assurance on? Anything else is something less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
“I think if one has an unhealthy obedience problem that never improves over time, they should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.”
Ross, but I think you might be reading more into those words than were intended by Johnathan. Even the apostle Paul told us to “Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith.” (2Cor. 13:5) We can, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom. 8:13). Doesn’t that mean there should be some improvement overtime, even while we remain in these bodies of death?
For all genuine believers, our assurance of salvation is in Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I have full confidence where I’m going when I die because my confidence is in Jesus and His sacrifice for me. The only way I could be lost is if something were deficient in the work of Christ. And since there is nothing deficient neither in His life, death or resurrection, nothing can possibly seperate me from the love of God!
I said that, not John.
Do you disagree with that quote?
Yes I disagree with that statement. Tracking moral improvement is not a test to determine if one is in the faith. Faith in Christ believes His promises that our sins our forgiven. Faith is something only sinners can have. I would say the one who sees himself as improving (less of a sinner) is in more danger than someone with an “unhealthy obedience problem”.
Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Obedience is not merely moral improvement.
Once again, you are wrong and un-Biblical. The evidence of faith in Christ is the growth in the Spirit.
The reply button doesn’t show up under your last comment. This is in response to your 2:18 pm comment.
“Obedience is not merely moral improvement”
You’re the one who said that improving over time is a test of faith. Besides, this statement doesn’t address my point.
“Once again, you are wrong and un-biblical”
Says you. Sticks and stones and whatnot. I could say the same thing about you but it wouldn’t help our dialogue would it? In fact, you might tune out anything else I had to say. Pretty uncharitable (sinful) response.
“the evidence of faith in Christ is the growth in the Spirit”
which is determined by the sinner who says he is growing? Makes sense. Is there an objective test you can give me that I can use to figure out if I’m “growing in the Spirit”?
Yes an increase in obedience is a test. I didn’t say or way the only test.
Again, not all the commands revolve around just moral behavior,though those are definitely included.
This test is objective in the sense that it is for everyone to apply, but subjective in the sense of each person. The former does not exclude the latter.
It is like a parent telling kids to brush their teeth better after each get a bad report foment the dentist. When they do so and the report from the dentist concerning each is one if improvement, that improvement will be relative to each child in relation to the prior condition of their teeth individually.
If you do bot see yourself growing in Christ, whom to love is to obey, then one needs to reexamine their faith.
How can one believe Jesus is Lord but has desire to obey Him as Lord? How can one believe in the work of the Spirit if they are
no more obedient than when they were lost or had just. been converted?.”
Is this objective enough for you?
No.
Brother Mike, Sorry about the delay in responding. My assurance is that once I am born again & sealed by the Holy Spirit, I will not loose my salvation, (Romans 8:38-39, John 3:16).
I have been a Christian & a Traditionalist for over 50 years. I have no worry concerning assurance.
I know where I am going, where I I am destined, and why. I am bound for Glory. And praise
God for that assurance! Sin in my life is something that happens. I am NOT pleased about that sin,
but I will not loose my salvation! Ever.
God bless,
John.
Sorry for the “broken record (as we called it in my younger days)” comment. I tend to repeat myself (I have teenage kids, after all) but in this case, it was entirely inadvertent. I did not intend to triple-post the same few sentences. Hopefully the comment is still somewhat intelligible.
“What is the evidence that one trusts more and more in Christ?”
Thanks Jonathan for engaging this topic. We can see there is a major difference in the understanding of sanctification…that some believe it is synergistic and some believe it is mongeristic as in Christ obeys for us. It might help to mention the Holy Spirit’s function in a synergistic sanctification? Pharisees were “lawless”. (Mark 7, Matt 15, Matt 23, etc)
In Matthew 5 Jesus was saying the Pharisees were not really righteous
I am with Calvinist N.T. Wright on this one. Medieval categories of monergism and synergism are unhelpful, especially when talking about sanctification.
If it is all God’s doing in us and for us, and we still sin, that means God has failed. If God has enables, but we must cooperate and put that enabling into action, then when we sin, we fail, not God.
Agreed, our righteousness by faith in Christ exceeds that of the Pharisees and scribes. Because they established a righteousness of their own; but our righteousness is a declaration by God, not by other men.
.”
Amen, I couldn’t say it better. The commandments are for our benefit to become the human beings God intended us to become in Christ. The world watches, and when we obey, it really is love in action in contrast with and to the shame of the world, powers and principalities, and forces of darkness.
May we all start singing this old hymn once again:
“Trust and obey, for there’s no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
Sanctification is a work of God (Philippians 2:13)and it also requires hard work on our part (1 Tim 4:8, Philippians 2:12).
Amen.
Johnathan, I had posted a link to the Calvinist NT Wright teaching on this very thing but it never made it out of moderation. He was speaking at Redeemer CFW in NYC.
Lydia,
I think it is a stretch to call N.T. Wright a Calvinist.
Why not? He holds to all of T.U.L.I.P., is supralapsarian, and affirms almost all of Calvin’s views on other matters of theology such as the sacraments, etc. Given that, it is hardly a stretch. The only place he differs on with most Calvinists is imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believer. Properly speaking though, he is very much Calvinist and very much Reformed in his theology. .
Johnathan,
I believe you are correct in observing that Christianity involves paying attention to “do’s and dont’s.” Perhaps a better statement of truth might be that Christianity involves MORE than mere adherence to a list of “do’s and dont’s.” Nothing on the list you suggested can or will occur apart from Christ’s redemptive accomplishments. If we concentrate only on the rules, we will become moralists and legalists. If we ignore our responsibility, we may become quietest and libertines. My concern is that we never lose our proper focus. The writer of the Hebrews did not instruct his readers to fix their minds on the rules; he instructed them to fix their minds on Jesus. Rules don’t sanctify us; he does.
Cheap grace holds that since we have been justified by Christ, we have no need to live a life of obedience and sacrifice. If what you mean by his article is that we need to understand that we are dearly bought, and be ever mindful of the sacrifice made on our behalf, I applaud you heartily! If you go further and say that we need to be conscious of what sin is, and where it is in our lives, and that we should be constantly repenting and reforming, I cheer you on!
But you go beyond that. Your central point is that we need to be doing certain, specific things in order to be holy and please God. But… I’ve tried that. I can’t. You can’t. Those do’s and don’ts are not a pathway to God, or greater intimacy, or spiritual power, or whatever. They are reminders that we are not the sort of grateful, joyful, loving, godly people that someone who follows those all is. It’s foolish to say you can follow them. It’s foolish to make fun of an honest pastor who admits his multiple failings. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
The things on the list you gave are all good things. Be in prayer. Forgive your enemies. Be hospitable. But that’s not a description of how I live! At best, it is a list of aspirations. I’d love to be all those things. But the fact of the matter is that I’m not. And while it is good to tell me to strive for them, to tell me that I’m not following Christ because I haven’t perfectly followed a list of thousands of rules is to lay a burden on me that I cannot lift. Worse, to bring my primary focus on following an enumerated list, my attention is taken from actually following Christ in reality, rather than do-gooder fantasy land (which only exists in my head).
You close by saying, “God knows best”, suggesting that those of us groaning under the burden of do/don’t list are secretly trying to sneak outside of God’s authority. No. God knows best; that’s why he sent his son into the World. Not to condemn the world, but that the World, through Him, might be saved. |
Come on, guys.... give Barkha a break. What is with this hate campaign raging against someone who was only doing her job?? Why pick on just her? Were the other anchors less strident? Less emotional? Less shrill? Can even the coolest tv commentator remain calm and composed under such extraordinary circumstances?? These guys are humans... not robots. They feel.... like you and me. They get emotional and carried away, like the rest of us. They were reporting from a site that could have endangered their own lives. It was a war zone - nothing less. We were watching them from the safety of our living rooms.The reportage was outstanding, give or take a few gaffes. The pressure they were subjected to can only be understood by people who have been exposed to it themselves. They were at it relentlessly for 40 long hours at one go, if not more. The field reporters were brilliant as well, particularly Rahul and Mahrukh, who remained in control and factually accurate throughout the crisis. The biggest accusation being hurled at Barkha is that she hogged the show. Excuse me - is that what the rants are all about?? Is this a 'show' someone 'hogs' in order to selfishly garner all the glory ? What a narrow minded, mean spirited and petty way of looking at it. Barkha has covered wars and other crises with an equal amount of competence. She does not have to 'prove' herself. She is a media star - like it or not. Our very own Christiane Amanpour. Viewers want to hear what she is saying.... what she is sensing. Because they have faith in her judgement.
This is not the time for professional rivalries - who got more air time, who was side- lined, who was 'better'?? This is not a film awards nite with actors vying for the top honours. Every single anchor, whether it was Arnab or Rajdeep ,was superb. If they did goof up on certain details, jumped the gun..... that's understandable. Can you even begin to figure out the tension levels at such a time, with fresh tragedies piling up by the minute, and contradictory reports flying back and forth ? It's a wonder these guys didn't crack under pressure. Barkha is being targeted by her own tribe.... which is unfortunate. But just try switching places with her.... try being on air 24x7, finding the right words, interviewing people, summing up situations, providing coherent perspectives, holding multiple shows together, without buckling. No food, water or loo facilities, either.Yes, several other media professionals did just that. And I, for one, am full of admiration for each of them. Bravo!! But I reserve an extra 'taali' for Barkha. In my book, she richly deserves it. So.... get off her back, guys. You do your job and leave her to do hers.
163 comments:
yes im first!
Ok thanks shobhaa for cooling down. You dont sound as angry as before. =D
Shobha, I have nothing against this lady, but I guess I do remember a story i read sometime ago (I believe it was during the Kargil war). The story goes that she heard forced herself into one of the bunkers at the warfront & the "daredevil" of Indian news reporter did something that almost risked the life of everyone there at that time. You know what she did. You might have heard that your not even allowed light a match at the warfront especially at arid borders like ours, cos the very flash would give away our location & believe it or not she clicked her camera at the enemy. When she was told of her mistake, instead of apologizing she instead threatened the soldiers that she would complain to the PM office if she wasn't given the necessary assistance. i don't know if its friendship or just professional respect for each other, but i wouldn't have been using superlatives like "bravest", "smartest" etc to praise her.
hate campaign ?
by ?
Wao De you speak my mind, i was next going to post about my appreciation for Barkha and Shai Venkataraman and also shivnath from NDTV.
I have a first hand experience with NDTV and I am all praises for the channel. They have often extended from their call of duty.
I shouldnt be putting my personal ancedotes with mediapersons here. But okie. Since we have this issue let me share this with you and all in the hate club.
As I informed you, I had set up and was constantly updating the blog from information in NDTV and other channels, I also called hospitals and other helplines and could figure out that the information provided by the channel was uptodate and none OTT. There was this one time that I had seen a coverage of shootout outside metro, seconds later I could hear shai's voice on NDTV. I had her mobile number, and quickly sent her an sms asking her if she is fine... Quick came the reply in which she stated the situation that she was in... NEar death. she just missed the bullet.
Shai has a family, husband, kids, She doesnt deserve to take this tension. And let me tell you, this is just not for thrills. She doesnt have to "cover" a "story" to earn brownie points. She can very well take up a cushy job and earn well. Like most of us do. It takes guts and gumption to stand there midst the bullets and cover such an incident.
Barkha was seen dreanched in sweat, voice chocked, in the same piece of cloathing for god knows how many hours, at one or two points she loses her voice and her eyes displayed profound grief. I have just been handling phone calls and emails and I am numb. After 48 hours of media and distress calls, I burst out crying really loud. Thats when I switched on the TV. and Saw barkha again there speaking outside Taj with the same enthusiasm and energy. Just one change. She had had visibly had bath and was wearing a different outfit. :)
There is an other intereesting piece that id like people to note. This was when Sreeneeevasan jain (Vasu)was reporting live outside the TAJ and Vikram chandra was in the NDTV studio Delhi. Since this was LIVE and not Deferred LIVE, there was no cover up of "flaws". Vasu's cameraman was focussing on the TAJ. This was seen by Vikram on screen, but Vaasu couldnt see it as he was busy speaking to vikram, Vikram cut Vasu short of his talk, and asked him to stop his cameraman from focussing on the taj operations as the terrorists could get information if the camera is focussed on Taj Operations. Thats what I call responsible journalism. Sadly, that piece went unnoticed.
Its sad. really sad. that we are teh first to condemn. For hate clubs you would have a 10000 people sugn up in a chutki of a second. But it takes a calamity of this magnitude for those many people to come out and take action.Shameful. Absolutely shameful for india and for humanity.
Besides, all these media persons. i have a few more ancedotes to share. Shai, teh reporteer told me that the hospital was short of fruits and busicuits and volunteers to help them fill forms. Why? She is a reporter no. Why should she bother... Hai na...
She also reported the story of the youngest victim/survivor of the attack, 3 month old sheetal yadav, her mom was in a different ward, her dad, dead. her grandparents, dead. The next day after Shai's coverage was aired on NDTV, I visited the JJ hospital to meet sheetal and her mother. When I met the Doctor of the ward, he said "O! so you also want to help that child". The hospital had received many many visitors to speak to sheetal's mom and offer help. Thats the power of a wonderfully covered story.
The chain sms that I sent following Shai's information, had resulted in the hospital being OVERSTOCKED.
Now, coming to print journalism, as i type this , i can see on the same channel |(NDTV)Vasant Prabhu, a reporter from Indian express, was in the taj and was with the police clicking pictures of terrorists and the operation. HE could well be killed.
Now, coming back to barkha, Lets take the worst case scenario, what if barkha was hit by one of the bullets. She would then be a martyr.
Thats funny, isnt it, one has to die to be respected in this country.
Didn't Barkha have anyone else in her team that she had to constantly be there and exhaust herself? Why not give anyone else a chance?
This woman goes around with a mindset and forces on her viewers, it is not just about this terrible terrible disaster at Mumbai but everywhere she goes. She doesn't deserve so much of attention that she gets through negative or positive praise. She is no mascot of Indian journalism, I've seen her force people to answer the way she wants and put words in their mouth... She is perhaps symbolic of all things wrong with shameless Indian media...
Dear Ms De,
I am afraid you are falling over yourself in your endorsement of Ms Dutt and all the actors in the media circus. Ofcourse you the rich and powerful have a nexus with the media who keep you in limelight so it is natural you will scratch their back when you need to.
But do let me tell you that the angst against the media and the politicians is equal. Go into facebook and see how many communities have been created just to shut Barkha Dutt up. The Indian media is over-wrought, high-strung and hopelessly over the top.
I saw the program on CNN-IBN where you were a guest on Rajdeep Sardesais show. I could condone your shouting for a moment but could condone the outshouting of everyone by Rajdeep. It is really difficult to take anyone seriously these days.
Yes Shobha, the average India who is unconnected to the powers that be has finally awoken, the unrest and angst manifests itself in the hazaar online communities and believe me it is not only the politicians that have everyone's goat.
people are so angry that aren't leaving journalists as well. mistakes were made by journalists and they've accepted. the campaign against them is well directed. no excuses. its time to move on.
I'm sorry Shobhaa De, I disagree to your opinion. Lemme just iterate a comment that I saw at rediff reporting Vishal's petition.
"Reporters were incessantly questioning firemen / police / commandos, thereby hampering them in carrying out their duties. Live coverage may have helped some of the victims’ family members to know the situation on the ground. However, this does not justify the risks such coverage poses. To draw an analogy - do we get a min. by min. update on the progress of a life and death surgery of a loved one? Don't we let the surgeons do their job? The same restraint has to be shown during blasts at public places."
I support Vishal's cause and once again I'm putting the link to his petition site:
Readers please sign the petition if you think media has gone overboard during the reporting of Mumbai terrorist attacks.
People hate Barkha Dutt and many of our media stars because they are so steadfastly secular. I am sorry to want to burst your bubble, but much of the "anger" you refer to in your posts is actually a hate campaign focused on those that are secular. It is a travesty that RR Patil should have been forced from his job, but LK Advani never faced a threat to his career throughout the Gujarat riots, the Parliament attack, Akhsargram etc. I think RR paid the price for allowing the Malegaon probe to proceed.
To be honest, I think some people have hated Barkha ever since she covered the Gujarat riots (pogrom) so thoroughly and so well. It's unfortunate that this antipathy works to diminish appreciation for the work she did covering the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.
I must admit, I am an ardent fan of Burkha Dutt. I have followed her news reportage and her thought-provoking argumentation on "We The People" show for a long time now.
I also see in her and a host of other NDTV news anchors/reporters a new generation of "thinking and questioning" individuals who have time and again created fora for conversations to form and continue.
In my opinion, it is extremely unfair to single her out and tag her as a star-wannabe, when the issue and the events of the past week were so grave.
Yet it would be unwise to not step back and review the larger system - that of the often unrestrained 24/7 news coverage. It is here that I offer my criticism:
One, news becoming 24/7 doesn't mean that reporters ignore the boundaries and trespass the graveness of situations under coverage. There were several instances where the media went ruthlessly overboard in interviewing the shaken and tired freed hostages from the two hotels.
Two, in Europe or in N.America, the media would never be allowed anywhere in the vicinity of the troubled site. In India, they were dangerously close to the two hotels. Accidents arising then from standing and reporting in midst of all the firing only speaks volumes of the callousness of the larger system than that of individual reporters.
Finally, it may help to perhaps review reportage at the level of the overall system. We are extremely fortunate to have this new breed of educated and well informed NDTV news anchors/individuals who unlike some of their counterparts in other news services, particularly the sensationalizing Hindi news networks, have committed themselves to making events as transparent as possible. May be its time to acknowledge the individual efforts but critique the system within which they are operating.
No, Barkha cannot be made a scape goat... The media is doing their job... Not everything in the world is as per our likings is it??? Still the lady did put a full explanation on their site to explain their point of view...
Now some of the politicians and bureaucrats also dont do things we dont like... do we ask them??? enough ??? Do they even care to bother or respond ???
Atleast she did respond...
Barkha is a true darling. I love her. And I love you too.
I completely understand the pressures under which a journo works as i myself am one... But, while watching these news channels I couldn't but miss the way every reporter or editor was trying to indulge in the game of oneupmanship by blabbering the 'exclusive' word every now and then while reporting the Taj horror. If the news channels want the politicians to be so patriotic and sensible then can't they for a moment forget their TRPs and just talk abt the incident. Barkha might have been the face of Indian media and she might have covered several big incidents. But, she was no different when it came to sensationalizing the news. I just hope that our media too regulates itself before pointing fingers at the political class...
I cannot claim to have seen every air minute on every channel. I did however follow the streaming webcast by turns by cnnibn and ndtv. I did see several senior anchors with extensive onsite reporting experience doing the opposite of what they are supposed to do.
THEY WERE NOT BEING ANCHORS AND USING THIER VAST NEWS GATHERING AND ANALYSIS EXPERIENCE TO ENHANCE THE QUALITY OF WHAT WE WERE SEEING AS WELL AS ENSURING ACCURACY. They needed to be at the center of it, at the studio, providing analysis and perspective based on reports from the field made by the field reporters. They have enough experience out in the field to know what is wise to report, what is accurate and how to rein in the field reporters from getting hysterical. That is why field reporters do small segments that are tied together in a coherent stream for our viewing. That is what anchors and senior coorespondents do. They stitch the pieces together. They also are supposed to know when silence and just visuals do a better job of conveying the story than hysterical high pitched shouting. They do not stay on screen, dodging bullets 24/7. That does not a smart anchor make. When they are dodging bullets and being "brave" they sound and act hysterical and offer us news reports which are nothing but loops of coverage with no analysis.
I do not want to look to Barkha Dutt and Rajdeep Sardesai for thier personal bravery. I look to them for thier journalistic ability which sometimes includes taking the back seat and being the wise ones on the scene.
Agreed, that these were extraordinary circumstances, but even under these conditions there has been outstanding reportage in the past in many countries. The first that comes to mind is the outstanding reporting by ABC/NBC/CBS during 9/11 (Cnn verged on the hysterical in bits). Senior coorespondents stayed in one place and stitched the story together from smaller field reports. They were then calmer and able to ask interviewees the right questions and offer analysis that made sense.
I do not know if Barkha is secular or not and dont care personally. But based on whatever I have seen of her over the years, the woman wants to be a field reporter and anchor and oprah while staying on screen the whole while... AND all in the same show. You cannot do it all, else you come off looking stupid in all three categories. She isnt shining at this moment.
As a field reporter of so much experience she should have known when to cut off and step back to offer more coherant smaller reports of substance. As an anchor she offered little sage analysis and asked hysterical questions to poorly chosen interviewees and as Oprah, she failed completely.
I am not interested in handing out bravery medals to reporters at this point. Those I reserve for the actual people doing the rescuing and protecting.
And if folks say hey it wasnt Barkhas fault she was just reporting, then what is her producer doing? Or is she the incompetant producer of the newscast too?
Rajdeep Sardesai did a better job of it than Barkha. He did offer better analysis and stayed put where he should have anyway. Unfortunatly the man just is blessed with a high pitched voice! Shouting makes it even more squeaky. Honey and lemon for him... on the double!
Aur Ek Kiran!
Love the way you put forth your point of view. Though my views differ, your views make me look within and reanalyze my stance. You are such an effective writer. Love You!
Correction, Ms. De
Christian Amanpour is the Barkha Dutt of the West!
Dear Ms De,
Barkha Dutt and her team endangered the lives of my cousins who were trapped in the Taj. The telly hacks chose to focus their cameras on the place my cousins were hiding. my cousins escaped death by a whisker.
Instead of my cousins, it could have been you at the Taj those fateful hours. How would you feel if you and your kids were in there - lying still on the floor in the dark for hours, not daring to even whisper for fear of being shot dead, trying to find a way out, only to find out later that the tv cameras were telling the terrorists where to find you? Being shot at while escaping? that too, guided by someone you evidently respect and admire?
By the way, my cousins werent the only ones to comment so. An English couple had to say the same about CNN. CNN aired their positions after calling them up to find out where they were. The terrorists came for them soon after, but by then they had changed their positions.
Ms Dutt was just doing her job? like others? like the time she caused the death of a number of indian soldiers in Kargil? She seems to be a vulture - a scavenger of dead bodies. What does she get out of it? There are rumors her partner is a Kashmiri separatist. Is that why she behaves the way she does, time and again?
This is not courage she has displayed - it is a cynical self-promoting scheme. Ms Dutt is someone who feeds off, indeed thrives off such evil. Secularism is just an excuse for her - nothing more than a password for entry to areas of conflict.
I lost whatever respect I had for her in particular, and in Indian telejournalists in general for the way they behaved and for the lives they risked during the crisis.
Back to some serious ass-kissing mode huh?
"She does not have to 'prove' herself. She is a media star - like it or not. Our very own Christiane Amanpour. Every single anchor, whether it was Arnab or Rajdeep ,was superb."
Hello Ms De. You are such a beautiful woman. Unfortunately I was born too late and I wasn't born wealthy either. :-(
Coming to the point:
"She does not have to 'prove' herself. She is a media star - like it or not. Our very own Christiane Amanpour. Viewers want to hear what she is saying.... what she is sensing. Because they have faith in her judgement."
Please tell me that you didn't have your tongue firmly in your cheek when you wrote that.
Christiane Amanpour. Hmmm.. There's this dirty little town in Andhra crisscrossed by three or four feeder canals that supply water to the farmland around the town. The locals proudly call it the "Venice of Andhra". I felt churlish to point out that there aren't any gondolas in those muddy waters, so I didn't speak up.
It is not about Barkha Dutt, but as a public figure her name comes to mind first - the rest of them were as ghoulish. Emotions run high but fake histrionics comes through on screen better. When one does not care for the feelings of others while reporting I don't think one should expect much 'feelings' from others!! She deserves the rant but so do the rest of them.
For readers,
We have four important pillars in democratic system, govt, media, people and judiciary and I consider media is the most valuable among them which not only bridges links between rest but also supposed to work as an independent body with great baggage’s of responsibilities. I personally very well appreciate the way she was reporting the whole episode but let us not forget the sense of media and let us pledge to uphill it to some world standard.
Main petition text
PIL PETITION TO THE HIGH COURT OF MUMBAI AGAINST NEWS CHANNELS:
We, the undersigned, citizens of India, humbly pray for the following reliefs;
1. That this Hon'ble Court call for the complete and unedited footage from all TV News Channels broadcasting the attacks 'live', starting from 9:30pm on Wednesday 26th November 2008 and until the morning of Saturday the 29th November 2008 and examine the same by itself or through any appropriate agency as appointed by it, to investigate and determine the manner in which sensitive information pertaining to the movement of Counter-Insurgency Operations was broadcast 'live'.
2. That this Hon'ble Court take cognizance of the broadcast of inflammatory propaganda (if any), on any such TV News Channels, and an appropriate Writ Order or Direction be passed by the Court against such TV News Channels as this Hon'ble Court may deem fit and proper.
3. That this Hon'ble Court make and issue such other Writ, Order and Direction as it may deem appropriate directing the Authorities to formulate a model Code-of-Conduct within a fixed time frame; that be made mandatory to the TV News Channels, to regulate the 'Live' broadcast of such and similar eventualities and operations.
4. That this Hon'ble Court make and issue such other Writ Order or Direction as it may deem appropriate in the matter.
Sign at:
He who controls the media controls the mind.”
~ Jim Morrison.
An Israeli security expert had suggested a total TV blackout as the jehadis wanted their Mumbai horror show to be put on display for the world.
Our news channels had clue played into the terrorists’ hands. ( The jehadis chose the Thanksgiving weekend in the US to show India in a poor light as an investment/business/tourist destination).
The terrorists wanted maximum TV eyeballs and they got it! The right to security is above the right to information.
The “if it bleeds, it leads” mentality of television news is failing us. TV's hunger for shocking pictures is distorting the world's' view of terrorism in India, and its excessive use of terrorist video is spreading propaganda of an even more damaging sort.
TV outlets run the risk of becoming mindless, amoral communications tools by which terrorists advertise their brutality, enlarge their reputations and belittle those who would protect us.
The Pew Charitable Trusts' 2004 report on the state of the U.S. media found a troubling trend:
News outlets “disseminate” news from other sources rather than collect it themselves, and the end video product often becomes repetitive, chaotic and incoherent “raw news.” Ultimately, news decisions are surrendered to those who would manipulate it for their own ends. TV may need to explore a new ethic — with some stern written-down policies including:
1) A refusal to air video or other propaganda from terrorist Web sites or other anonymous terrorist sources, except in the rare circumstances that such information warns viewers of an imminent, credible threat.
2) A prohibition against using images that aren't shot by network or other legitimate photographers. That means not using video shot by terrorists or insurgents, because these images are suspect, often staged for propaganda.
3) A new practice of prominently labeling all non-network, freelance or bystander video — akin to the photo credit in print journalism — so audiences can judge the source of each image.
4) A commitment to require the same sharp scrutiny and relentless challenges to terrorists and insurgents that journalists traditionally give our own government and military officials.
Well done Barkha (NDTV), Rajdeep (CNN-IBN) and Arnab (Times Now)!
Also your analysis was lame, hysterical and I had to surf the Web to understand and analyze the situation and after effects.
Please don't sell your Motherland for TRPs.
PS: The London blasts had no images of the inside of the Tube.
Barkha Dutt to the rescue - eh ? I distinctly remember she being the one responsible for the death of three soldiers during the Kargil War because the Colonel gave in to her incessant demands to fire a gun.
At night.
So that she could get some nice visuals.
No wonder we are a failed state, when murderers like Ms. Dutt are glorified as the next Christian Amanpour.
Where was Ms. Dutt (or, for that matter, Mr. Sardesai, with his absolutely horrible approximation of British pronunciation) when Hindus were being butchered in Balochistan in 2006 ?
Did we see them comment on the atrocious filth printed in Andhra Pradesh by the Christian missionaries about Hindu Gods and Goddesses ? I did notice Mr Sardesai jumping in to save the poor Christians from the "RSS goons".
They are quick to point out the insurgencies in Kashmir and people like Modi and Togadia as reason to terrorists being formed "right here in India".
What they conveniently miss out are the atrocities carried out by the Moslems in Malabar in 1921, the butchering of Hindus in Noakhali in 1946 by Surawardi and his ilk, the mass genocide carried out in 1971 by Yahya,Tikka and the Razakars, as acknowledged in the Blood Telegram at that time, and even later.
And of course, God forbid they mention the butchering of Kashmiri Pandits - those who survived are now living as refugees, driven from their homes, dependant on alms for survival.
Were these incidents not responsible for the creation of Modi and Togadia, pray ?
And look - I did not even mention the wanton destruction of Hindu temples and scriptures and decimation of Hindu culture in the Middle Ages - the 700 years of slavery Nehru conveniently made us forget.
I fully expect my post to be deleted or not answered to, Ms. De, since the English-language media in India (of which you too are a part) do not wish to associate themselves to their religion, or their kind.
One last thing -
If you wish to be considered as true media, try to follow the only organization which has remained true to its roots, which reports with objectivity, without bias, with the motto : "I'll say the whole story - both sides of it."
I am, of course, referring to the BBC.
Go ahead - delete this post. This is logical, to the point, and non-abusive. Definitely threatening to our revered Indian media.
Dear Shobha,
I have always admired your sharp and incisive observations and I was SO HAPPY to read your comments on my favorite anchor, Barkha Dutt. Some people have started such a vicious, personal, foul mouthed campaign against here which I have been attacking since a couple of days. So, to read your views on her just made me feel vindicated and so nice !
I read some comments here saying some mistake of hers got some jawans in kargil killed. But, if you read the army chief Maliks book ( he was the army chief during kargil) , he has rubbished any such mistake having taken place. This is just a rumor !
Shobha De, this is a clearly skewed opinion in favour of Barkha Dutt. NDTV and you give each other great soundbytes, and you respond by this - a whole blog post in praise of Barkha!
LOL
Enough is Enough!
Really, now, Shobhaa!!
I visit this blog for a laugh - you seem to be talking through your hat: this one on Barkha takes the cake though.
I agree she's not the only one at fault - but to praise her is just HEE-larious!
Stop blatantly exposing the nexus that exists b/w you guys.
Saavdhaan..India Jaag raha hai.
Ms De,
You disappoint me. I am disgusted with the hero worship you and the likes of you indulge in. Without a rational POV.
Take a break from your Page 3 life and think about what you wrote.
To Anita
Please check the comments of Chief of Navy Admiral Sureesh Mehta right after the Kargil War. He spoke with soldiers who were present at the scene - I see no reason why Admiral Mehta had to lie.
I've also read Gen Malik's book. It is non-committal regarding Ms.Dutt's role in the matter - she was never exonerated by Gen Malik completely.
Also, please check reports on the woman behaving like a vulture at Officer Karkare's funeral - goading relatives to "vent their feelings".
Look - I have nothing against Barkha Dutt personally. Neither do I have anything against Rajdeep Sardesai (other than his horrible accent - please - it does not remotely sound Oxford, Mr Sardesai - the phonetics are all wrong). What I have against Indian English media is the fact that they are one-eyed. They only report one side of the story. There are two sides to every story, and the majority side need not ALWAYS be kept in the dark.
That's all.
Thank you for listening.
3 questions for the hate-mongers:
1. are professionals not allowed to show support for each other? Or is it only strangers who must come to the aid of others, and lambast them?
If Shobhaa has something positive to say, its got a right to be heard, just as the negative stuff is heard. Judge it for what you will.
2. General VP Malik headed the army operations in Kargil. Read the book and then comment.
3. What are the motives of the facebook group? They claim neutrality: but it is undeniably and clearly a hate campaign, which vilifies any material or POV which doesn't agree with them, and abusively attacks any person dissenting. And then denies its actions. Brilliant.
Hate-mongerers - Mr. Sandeep ? I like your choice of words.
So if one does not agree with something, he/she is not allowed to post their comments against an opinion ?
The personal abuse stuff has to go away - I see a few have been deleted, and very rightly so.
But if you tell me that I can only Agree to Agree, and not Agree to Disagree, then that is something I am not comfortable with.
Read my posts - I have already backed up the Kargil issue with facts, and my opinion of the selfsame facts.
Look - just like you are allowed to comment on something, so am I. That does not make me a hate-mongerer.
Or maybe it does, these days ?
Sandeep - I totally agree about the Hate mongering in the vicious facebook groups. Maybe some should be booked for slander. All kinds of profanities and vile words.
Joy - From what I know, General Malik did say nothing of that kind happened in Kargil.
joy said.. "the majority side need not ALWAYS be kept in the dark. "
Thanks for revealing yourself, Joy. It IS Barkha's /Rajdeep's steadfast secularism that rankles you and your ilk. You have crawled out of the wood work when you thought you had a chance. Now the election results are out and you should go back to where you came from.
I've always been around, man. Never hid in the wood work, or whatever.
Never made my disgust of Al-Zawahiri, Osama, Yahya, Tikka, Surawardi, Togadia and Advani a secret, either.
If they indeed were secular, it would not have bothered me. Do you have any idea what secular means ? Go check what the BBC does. THAT is objective and unbiased journalism.
Not this. Where it is okay to analyze the psyche of one (Afzal Guru, Azhar Masood etc.), but it is not okay to analyze the psyche of another (Sadhvi Pragya).
It is the one-eyed nature of the beast which burns my chaps, mate.
Oh - I have been here, and I'll be here, mate. I will not "go back to where I came from".
I have not used abusive language against anyone or anybody in this forum, if you would note. You, on the other hand .....
I'll let it go. This time.
To Anita
1. Please check this site :-
I'll give you an excerpt -
."
2. Gen Malik cleared Ms. Dutt of charges that the NDTV cameras compromised the position of the artillery platform which was destroyed, along with three soldiers who were killed. Ms. Dutt has mentioned this herself. It is also written clearly in the book.
Problem is, Admiral Mehta has accused Ms. Dutt of pestering the Colonel to fire the artillery gun, for good visuals.
Gen Malik has never cleared her of that.
agreed........
hey, why gang up against Joy. The guy is perfectly right in expressing his opinion. It always helps when we know the other side of the story.
Chritine Amanpour. hahahaha !
It is sickening when people feed off a terror strike such as this one, and try to glorify their own selves.
Joy,
So, I was right. General Malik has indeed exonerated Barkha according to what you have pasted.
Regarding the Mehta controversy I am pasting from the NDTV site what Barkha has to say about it. I hope this will clarify things.
" I would like to point out that the Navy Chief made a factually incorrect and wholly untrue comment on NDTV's coverage during the Kargil conflict of 1999, claiming that NDTV asked for a gun to be triggered for the benefit of the camera. I want to state for the record: no such incident ever took place and we have an official aknowledgment of that, including from then Army Chief, V.P Malik..
Jeez - Anita - read the post in its entirety.
Gen Malik has cleared Ms. Dutt of charges DIFFERENT TO WHAT ADMIRAL MEHTA HAS ACCUSED HER OF. (REF #2)
AND HE HAS ACCUSED MS. DUTT OF COMPROMISING THE INDIAN ARMY'S POSITION IN KARGIL. (REF #1).
I understand that faith can be blind, but when someone tries to open your eyes, do try. If you don't see the logic, or if you think it is false, then shut it back again.
But at least you should have the decency of reading the entire post.
I've seen that self-gratifying piece on NDTV, too. It's her word against Admiral Mehta's right now, and I don't know about you, but I'll believe an admiral of the Indian Navy every day of the week and twice on Sunday, thank you.
Thank you avdi.
But beware though, the bunty and the Barkhas and the Sardesais are a-coming ... you might be labelled a "hate mongerer" who "crawls out of the woodwork"..
The 'coverage' by the channels compromised lives of the hostages . The channels showed no self restraint at all in their bid to be the first to show "breaking" and "exclusive" news . You wouldn't be singing songs about Barkha if you had lost a loved one trying to come out of the Taj and the last thing you saw on TV was that "hostages are trying to come out through rear exit" .
Your recent posts show an alarming lack of objectivity.
Joy,
I think neither of us are aware of the nitty gritty of these charges and what was exonerated and what was not. So, I think neither me, nor you can really speak like an expert there.
For now, I will choose to go with the NDTV position. They have made an official complaint - Let us see what happens before becoming the jury here.
Regarding trusting our Indian top brass, I am sorry -I dont share the same blind trust as you do , when you have had past top brass people involved in many scandals and kickbaks. So, Sunday or Monday - no , I do not share YOUR blind faith !
:-)
Anonymous - your comment about the 'live' coverage is spot on. I know that the police and the Army goofed up by letting them come in so close, but personally, I would have stayed back. A lot.
Anyways ...
Anita
If you choose to believe Barkha Dutt, a journalist of questionable morality over Admiral Mehta, a decorated general, Chief of the Indian Navy, it is your choice.
I personally want to give them the benefit of doubt because the reason you and I are chatting on a blog in the middle of the night safely (for the most part) is because these guys are standing on walls, guarding our borders and telling us - "We're trying our best to protect you".
These are the guys who actually go into places like CST and the Taj to rescue hostages facing fire and bullets from terrorists.
Barkha Dutt just Reports Live. That too by compromising the position of these people to the enemies.
You and I just chat on a blog.
At least I am trying to show a little solidarity to those underappreciated men and women of the Armed Forces.
Well - to each his own, I suppose....
But the charges are straightforward - Admiral Mehta alleges that Ms. Dutt compromised the position of soldiers by asking the leader (a Colonel) to fire an artillery gun.
Ms. Dutt vehemently denies the charge and has sued the Admiral for libel and pointed to Gen. Malik's book as proof of her innocence.
Gen. Malik has, in his book, mentioned that NDTV, nor Barkha Dutt, was responsible for the bombing of a platoon, the position of which was alleged (earlier) to be exposed by NDTV's cameras flashing at night.
Gen. Malik also has, in his book, mentioned that Barkha Dutt in particular was responsible for compromising India's plans to attack Tiger Hill due to her "professional exuberance".
These are the facts, and they are beyond dispute.
What is in dispute is the result of the lawsuit filed by NDTV.
But then again, we live in a country where the bureaucrats increase their pay 3 times AND refuse a long-overdue pay hike to the military, I don't doubt the outcome.
I am sure Ms. Dutt will come out smiling and point it out as a "victory for the seculars".
Joy,
I know you are eagerly awaiting my response but too sleepy now. So wait till tommorow morning !:).....Goodnight....sleep well....
If radio killed the video star,
will megalomania kill the media star?
Freedom, I like ya! You are funny! Please dont ever dislodge your tongue out of that cheek.
Gondolas and Video stars... hehehehe.
Love it... Love it!
As always, the tigress in Ms. De rises to defend the damsel-in-distress-Ms.Dutt....
Hi,
Lets not just blame the government system or the politicians. What failed is everything and shame on the media what they did.
If you really support the media can you answer on these three items below and lets not justify our wrongs
1) One of the NDTV correspondent walked down the corridor of the building around the TAJ hotel showing all the policeman taking positions. It was srinivasan I suppose.
2) Camera was zoomed in to show the snipers in the gateway of india building
3) Bharkha Dutt called up TRIDENT hotel owner and gave out the info that nearly 100 hostages are locked up in the hotel even after the admiral tried to trick saying there is no hostages. Good work Bharkha
Please do not delete my comment like how it was done by the NDTV site
Thanks,
Dr.Charan.
Hi Shobhaa,
How come you give such a simple explanation saying she is human and she gets emotional.
Can we say the terrorist are human and emotional so they killed out of rage just 200 people.
Where is professionalism and ethics and common sense???
Ok I agree with they are human and get emotional what do the producers and her boss do in to check in and fix the so called emotional response which lasted for 60 hours.
You mean 60 hours emotional sensationalizing. Please shobha give a different explanation if you want to support bharkha.
Hi Shobhaa
Please visit
Do you think all this 22869 people who signed are coplete fools and they dont share a sense of pain like others.
As per you post do you think all of those who signed here are her proffesional enemies. I dont think so...
You can share their views or even diagree with them but atleast you could have avoided singing this praise song for bharkha. I lost hope on media on 26/11.
I lost respect for your unbiased writing seeing this article.
Have you ever thought why the hate group have started. Where do think people who have been let down by the entire system and adding to it the media will put their out rage and anger. There nearly thousands of people in internet have joined these groups.
Do you think all of them dont have any work or all of them personnally hate bharkha or NDTV.
People have tried numerous times trying to post comments on the NDTV article by bharkha and guess where is freedom of expression shut down.
NDTV never put any comments against them and you know what they even removed the comment section itself to post new ones.
I personally tried putting a comment 10 times and finally came down to your forum and believe me the groups have been started like people who are interested in the country.
The hateforum is not for bollywood shobaa its for genuine people to express their feelings.
Anonymous
Thank you very much - you hit the nail right on the head. As I have already mentioned, you can only "Agree to Agree", and cannot "Agree to Disagree" with the so-called secular media, led by that doyen of free speech, NDTV.
And if you disagree with them - the Dutts, the Sardesais (by extension, I would think it is actually the Prannoy and Radhika Roys), you automatically become a hate-mongerer.
In a democracy, the media acts as the fourth estate, the guardians of free speech and the guardians of the public.
NDTV, by virtue of being a leading news channel, therefore, becomes the “chief guardian”.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?
Joy,
Good morning !
Dont you accuse me of not showing solidarity to our armed forces. I have all respect for them.
Regarding the Kargil issue, my point was that neither you, nor me know the nitty gritties of what happened. Obviously NDTV strongly thinks they are being wrongly charged, or they would not have made an official complaint. So, I think this matter will be decided by authorities more competent than you and me. All, I meant was just because someone is top brass - that does not automatically make him infallible or always right. So, just like as in the courts, I will choose to not pronounce anyone guilty, unless proven.
Regarding the media having compromised on hostages safety - if that was indeed done, it is irresponsible. I was not watching the gory drama all the time as it was too painful. BUT , to my mind the fault here lies much more with the authorities there - IF the armed forces or police thought that the media could prove to be a safety hazard, WHY were they not removed. Why was the cordon they were told to stay behind so close to the hotels? For the media too this was a unique situation which they had not faced earlier. The Authorities there who are much better versed in handling such kinds of situations should have pushed away the media much further or whatever. So, why blame only the media ?
Hi Anita,
Do you think that the goverment and the security people shoule babysit a bunch of unprofessional journalist on issue like what to talk and what to show on their camera.
Dont you agree its common sense and a moral responsibility.
We cannot control issues like terrorism but we can control the media from comprimising the operations thats why the entire anger is.
Why NDTV and why Bharkha because they had a huge standard and we expected more from them and in return they flunked completely.
No one is perfect I understand but atleast people should not justifying mistakes by an article. Read NDTV article by bharkha giving childish reasons on government guidelines.
If you are not professional and have no guidelines please do not show on the tv in front of millions of common viewer's.
If common people;s comments are ignored that means the start of downfall of any star.
I am extremely upset with shobba's article on supporting bharkha and media. Where is her anger on politicians and the government.
Anger should be against everything which is wrong
Dr .Charan
Dear Anita
Dr. Charan has already made the point I would have made regarding the role of media in general and our eminent English-language media (led by NDTV) in particular.
And he has made it far more passionately than I ever could have.
Regarding the accusation part - I did not accuse you of anything - I was trying to allude to the fact that in your earlier post you had mentioned "For now, I will choose to go with the NDTV position".
And pointing out that if I have to choose to believe on of two persons, Barkha Dutt or Admiral Mehta, I'll take the admiral any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Paying lip service of "respecting the armed forces" is not good enough anymore, Anita. I am sorry. You should stand up and be counted.
Rest assured - if Admiral Mehta is indeed proved false, I would be the first one to admit my mistake on a blog of your choice.
Finally ..
To Ms. De and Everyone
In a democracy, the media acts as the fourth estate, the guardians of free speech and the guardians of the public.
NDTV, by virtue of being a leading news channel, therefore, becomes the “chief guardian”.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?
Who guards the guardians ?
Hi Dr. Charan,
If the authorities there felt that the media could prove to be a safety hazard, yes , I think it was their duty to see to it that the media were not allowed around the place.
I agree with you that yes, it is moral responsibility of journalists what is shown on TV. Precisely for that very reason, I am a die-hard fan of NDTV. They are refined, sensitive and respect viewers sensibilites, and in that I include Barkha too, though you obviously disagree. From whatever little I saw about these terrible attacks on TV, I did not find her being obnoxious. I watch her We the people show religiously , and to me she has always come across as someone I instantly connect with - like a strong, older sister....she shows empathy, sensitivity and passion.
We must also understand these attacks were the first of their kinds. Journalists are human too....they also learn and evolve....why do we expect them to be perfect every single time ?
The fact also remains that Barkha and the other journalists were indeed in the middle of a war zone, risking their very lives. So much harshness on these hate groups part, to my mind, is totally unjustified and I strongly condemn it. Especially at such a time in our Nations history, it is JUST NOT RIGHT to attack such a long serving, passionate journalist. I would rather have a passionate journalist who FEELS , than a deadpan one - whatever the journalism rule books may say.
Mr Charan, I know we both disagree but these are my views and you have yours. :-)
Thanks Joe.
Time to go to bed. Will wait to see what Anita comes up in defense for the media. ;-)
One last point would like to make is the common people who watch the tv should be guaranteed and assured that our forces are out there to safeguard you and ur family. The media should not invest a terror on them and push them to a point of no return.
Media has a major role in bringing normalcy in hard times like this.
Under current situation no place is safer. All we ask is at least educated professionals not politicians live up to the expectation.
Hey Anita,
Just one last point before I wind up for the day.
You said that no one can be perfect and why we expect her or NDTV to be perfect.
I completely agree with you and if you are not perfect and if you are somebody who thinks that there is scope of improvement and if you are that person who gives importance to the common peopls voice.
Do not try to justify by putting out and article in ndtv.com that what you did was right.
I never came out to blame her unless I read the article, like you even I am fan of NDTV but its time for accepting some mistakes and an apology is a good gesture for any great person.
One more point NDTV.com never publishes any of my comment and they have even taken out the post comments section.
So you being a loyal NDTV viewer do you agree in freedom of speech or freedom to blog your views in a descent bunch of words and whats ur response for this..
Will check Ur reply tomorrow and reply for other points tooo. Bye
Dr.Charan
Dear Joy,
What I meant when I said I will choose to go with the NDTV position is - not put them on the block , unless they are proven guilty. I worded it wrongly I guess.
And yes, like I said I stand up for our forces and respect them. But, this is a personal dispute between two parties. I guess maybe the truth will come out in time. Till then, I am not putting anyone on the block. Respecting the armed forces and not making premature judgments on a disputed matter, to my mind, are two totally exclusive things.
Rest what i wanted to say about the media etc, I replied in my post to Dr Charan.
I want one answer though - WHY are the people in charge of the operation out there not being pulled up or hated ? To me, they were the security experts and if they felt the security would be compromised by the media being there, they should have banned the media there. Who stopped them from doing so ??
Anita
I'll stick to one topic - why people are not pulling up our Armed Forces.
First, they are. There is a lot of chatter in circles that matter that heads will roll, due to this.
But, coming to the point of why there is no public reaction to the Armed Forces as there is to Barkha Dutt and her NDTV henchmen.
Two reasons :-
1. They are the Armed Forces, for crying out loud. They are the ones who actually went into the areas and fought the terrorists, for crissakes. Kinda hard to find fault with a guy who just saved your bacon.
2. Everybody is showing a little more solidarity now with the Armed Forces these days, due to the fact that they were denied a much-deserved pay hike, whereas the bureaucrats in Delhi gave themselves a huge hike.
Didn't find NDTV (or anybody else, apart from TOI and Rediff.com) focussing on that issue.
Three reasons why people are pulling up Barkha Dutt and NDTV :-
1. They.
And vent.
2. Coming to the actual journalism part of the Bombay attacks, leaving aside everything else, there were faults, too - faults that were very egregious.
Faults pointed out so eloquently by others on this forum, led with superb eloquence by Another Kiran from NYC
3. They can't really complain to NDTV.com - any comments against NDTV are deleted from their website with alarming alacrity, as many people in this forum have testified. So they go to Facebook, Blog sites like this one (bless Ms. De - all my comments are still intact. Then again, she does write for TOI, not NDTV.com).
Now THAT is downright fascism, and "supression of free speech" - the very things NDTV.com supposedly stands for.
Everybody loathes a sanctimonious hypocrite.
To Another Kiran in NYC
You mentioned "CNN verged on the hysterical in bits".
Would those be the Ashley Banfield bits ?
Mark Jennings was good, though. Does he still anchor for ABC ?
Is Anita Barkha?
Just wondering...
To All
I would implore you to read the following article - it will give you an insight into the Facebooks and Blogs vilifying the English-language Indian media in general, and NDTV.com in particular.
Ms. De might know the writer - he is also a columnist at TOI. Picked this one up because anything else might be labelled as "saffron-tinged".
Dear Joy,
There are armed forces who actually go into the warzone and do the real fighting and then there are other administrators who manage the scene and other things. It was for them to have decided where the media can be and how much access they can be given. They were the security experts. AFTER that yes it is the moral responsiblity of the media.
About NDTV you wrote - "People."
You are now accusing NDTV for skewing every story they report. NDTV has consistently been amongst the topmost in viewership numbers amongst all the leading channels. Pray tell me, why would they be at the top if the majority of people thought they were doing faulty reporting ? They are at the top because the majority thinks that they are a genteel, sensitive news channel and its reporters can be relied upon.
Hate groups such as the ones on facebook, to my mind, do not represent the majority view. The vicious, uncouth, personal comments on those groups are shocking. Atleast over here we are having a more civilised exchange of differing views.
Regarding your comments being removed from the NDTV site, no I do not have any comment on that, simply as I have no experience of that. But yes, I do support freedom of views, as long as they are not slanderous .
Anonymous - No, I am surely not Barkha. I wish I were though. I am far less passionate, driven, courageous or bold than Barkha is. :-)
Anita
Again, I agree to disagree.
It is a co-dependant relationship. The security forces need the media to tell the world that they are doing something, and the media needs to be responsible enough to know where to draw the line.
Ms. Dutt's comments to the effect of "they did not tell us what to do and what not do" does not cut the mustard.
Simply because there was no need to show the commandos being lowered on the roof of the Nariman House. Simply because Srinivasan did not need to circle around the hotels to give away the positions of the commandos. Simply because they did not have to telecast the position of the hostages, for crying out loud.
It's common sense.
If everything needs to be spelt out in black and white beforehand, we'll need a media briefing before every operation to brief the media of its limits.
That, I am sure you would agree, is beyond ridiculous.
Problem is, Anita, that the media treated this situation like it was Beirut, or West Bank or Kosovo, when it needed to be treated like
Operation Entebbe.
As to "accusing NDTV of skewing facts" - I did not accuse them of anything. I stated a fact that they report one side of the story only.
I could be wrong, but it seems your support of NDTV's positions stems largely from the fact that NDTV commands majority viewership in the country.
You are right, for the most part.
That, sadly, is the pity.
Because you never get to read the other side. You never get to hear about a certain group of people.
You don't get to hear about why some people do what they do.
Tell me this - there has been tons of press about the Kashmiri seperatist on NDTV - lots of press about Army atrocities and suchlike.
Have you heard of Asiyah Andrabi ?
If you have, and through NDTV, then Mea Culpa.
My guess is you have not.
(Refer to the link I have provided earlier for more details)
If you wish to be sensitive, be sensitive to both sides, not just one.
As to your comment about "not posting slanderous comments" being the yardstick of judging freedom of views, have I posted slanderous comments in any of my posts ?
And what does slanderous mean ? Personal slander is one - always to be derided and deleted.
When someone starts considering the 'other side of the story' as slander, is when I have a problem.
And NDTV (and a few others) is one of them, if not the leader of them.
Personal abuses in Facebook is deplorable, I'll wholeheartedly agree to that.
Dear Joy,
First of all, thanks for deploring the horrible, slanderous , hate-filled facebook groups. They anger me and make me very sad that at such a time indians can be behaving like this.
Yes, the relationship between the forces and media may be codependant. But, the first line of security has to be decided by the security agencies and they failed in that. Again, like I said it was also a first for our journalists too, so maybe inadvertently they ALL made some gaffes. Do we hang them at the gallows ? - I think not.
No, I have not heard of Asiyah Andrabi. But yes, I agree that TV should give a fair hearing to both sides.
No, I did not mean to say that you were making slanderous comments. I was referring to it in a general context.
The terrible terror attacks were a first for ALL of us, including the journalists. If that were not the case probably we would not have lost our topmost police officers who went ill-equipped to handle the terrorists. I am sure they will also learn and improve with this experience as will television journalism. I am quite sure about that.
I am glad Shobhaa De's bakwaas abt Barkha is not being blindly accepted.
Hurrah to the awakened Indian!
There. Right there, Anita, is where we bifurcate.
This is NOT the first attack on us. Are you serious ?
We have been rendered second class citizens in our land for 900 years, and an educated person like you has been so brainwashed by the likes of NDTV that you refer to it as such.
I urge you - please read that link. And my earlier posts.
If you so wish, I can send you a ton of other stuff.
Why you ? Because you seem to be one of the few who has not yet been brainwashed.
By Prannoy Roy, Radhika Roy, Arundhati Roy and their bosses. (Ms. Dutt is a frontperson only)
OR
By Al-Zawahiri, LeT, Hizbul Mujahideen,Mehbooba Mufti, Syed Salahauddin, the likes of Asiyah Andrabi.
OR
By Narendra Modi, Praveen Togadia, L.K.Advani.
Think.
Read all you can.
Spread the awareness.
Joy,
I will read the links later and comment.
Some quick thoughts though....Yes, this was the first attack of the kind that we faced in India. Which other attack was of a similar kind ?
Why this prejudice only against NDTV and the Roy's ? I can understand you saying that we have been brainwashed by the MEDIA- but why single out only NDTV ?
Goodness gracious me.
All right - I'll give you in three distinct groups -.
Finally, I am saddened that despite all of my above posts, you consider me to be "prejudiced". I hoped that I would come across as an unbiased person.
But, if you say so, NDTV primarily because they are the worst offenders.
By no means are NDTV the sole offenders. If I came across as ranting against NDTV in particular, then, mea culpa.
My dear Joy,
I never said India was never attacked in the past. I said the KIND of attack. Earlier they were all mostly plant a bomb and run away ones. Also, the couple of live attacks that were there like in the parliament or Akshardham , I dont think they were on this scale or that there was such a big hostage situation, or one that went on for so long. That is what I meant.
When you say the media has brainwashed us and then name only NDTV, I think anyone in my place would call that a prejudiced slant. Maybe media has its own prejudices and slants but that applies across media.
Does not matter if I think you are prejudiced or not. We are here debating the issues at hand :).....Not you personally or me.
Just for kicks, I'll throw in one more -
It is China who is blocking the banning of JuD and freezing of its assets right now.
It was China who blocked the banning of JuD earlier, in 2006.
Would you see NDTV reporting this ? Or any of the mainstream media ?
True. Maybe, if I think about it, I am directing my anger specifically at NDTV, while it should be directed at the entire mainstream media.
I guess it is because as the most viewed channel, I believe it has the moral responsibility to report the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and hang the consequences.
Sort of like the Beeb, you know.
Putting the entire blame on them is a little unfair, I would admit.
Joy,
A big :-) !!
You are a refreshing change from those vicious people on facebook groups who have made this more a personal assualt, rather than an issue based one.
Thanks !
Thanks, I guess...
But don't forget the main issue - do not believe what you see, because all you see on TV is not all there is to it.
Believe in yourself and read objectively. Think of the country.
Think of Bharatvarsha.
Hate Campaign....? Give me a break! Why don't you respond to this one-- Barkha Dutt asking a man, how does it feel after you have lost 6 of your family members......The next question to a mother could be - Oh your daughter got raped, how does it feel. How many times does Barkha cut off the person she is interviewing in the middle of a sentence (especially if he/she is saying something that would go against Barkha's notion or opinion. I am no Journalist, but a viewer who is really irritated with the saddened state of mediocrity being defended (and awarded).
Hi Shobaa
Great to see here the number of comments in a short time.
Majority of people who are sensible enough have turned against bharkha and Co.
Shobaa this is not a hate group just see the response and these cannot be refused and one more thing all of these are genuine comments from people who used to read your article.
Most of the time they agreed or praised your article and views. Did you see the shift in views and why more number turn out against your view except few strong minded bharkha fans who refuse to see the reality and keep praising with superlatives.
For those who think that disagreeying with somebody means that you can be called the hate group, offcourse you are on the side of bharkha.
" If you dont like the channel please use your remote " Bharkha
Think about this which means she will do whatver she wants and we people should stop watching the channel. Like saying I dont change.
Irresponsible journalism and immature response to criticism.
Dr.Charan
May be I am just curious to know. BUT... why didnt people who dont like Barkha, simple change teh channel? The viewer has the choice and there is no derth of NEWS channels. Hai Na?
you have a choice. Just dont watch the channel if you dont like it.
Dr Charan,
You say the majority of sensible people have turned against Barkha and co. I do not think a handful of people who have grievances against her represents majority opinion. Even during the week of the terror attacks, NDTV was number 1 watched channel amongst all the english news channels. This was also confirmed on the Outlook Site. This means majority of people, sensible or not, yet thought of Barkha and NDTV as sane, reliable people. :-)
Aham,
I agree with you. The best rejection of any channels conduct is stopping viewing that channel and NOT vicious, slanderous, personality-based hate messages on facebook etc.
I dislike Barkha Dutt's style of reporting simply because it isn't straightforward and unemotional reporting anymore. It's laced with drama which would be more appropriate in a saas-bahu soap.
Unfortunately she is not alone. Most reporters seem to be following in her vocal cords.
Aham,
I love you, I do, I do and we have love enough to agree to disagree right? So big kisses, sweetie! Muah Muah.
I dont think the crux of the question is about the freedom to change channels. I think the question being asked is... is Barkha Dutt, a senior journalist with vast field and production experience doing justice to the respect we give her as a professional?
We do expect a certain standard from senior journalists under all circumstances. Would you agree? Especially since they are disseminating information that each one of us acts on.
I dont care how nice, secular or anything anyone is. Every one of us and every reporter has a bias. Yeah, both the right wing and left wing and the liberalwalas. So she has a bias too. Okay, fine, that is a given.
HOWEVER, When I see a critical news report, I expect a professional job and accurate reporting with analysis. Whatever the bias of a journalist, a modicum of accuracy and distance from hysteria is to be maintained. It was especially important in a uncontrolled situation like th Mumbai tragedy or Kargil.
I did not get either professionalism or accuracy from her reporting this time around. This unfortunately has been a pattern over and over with Barkha Dutt.
So is it her, or her incompetant production team? If it is her, she needs to go back to basics immediatly as a reporter and check the ego in at the door first for a bit. If it is her producer then that person needs to be fired immediatly for not knowing how to rein in reporters and stories. If it is the NDTV network itself, they all need to go on a retreat and review thier journalistic and programming policies (Vikram Chandra are you reading this! NOTTTTTTT).
How close reporters got to the action physically was a police crowd control matter. Each network also has its own safety policies.
As far as what not to air, it is goes into that minefield of censorship. Also how forceful the authorities are about enforcing that censorship is a huge factor.
Senior journalists who have vast experience should have an innate sense of what to report and when to pull back. There is some amount of self control and self censorship involved. It is something to be learnt on the job not taught. Has Barkha Dutt not learnt that? Hmmmmm, if she has not after so many years. Sigh... I can only say... Bechari!
About Kargil and whether she caused deaths due to journalistic opportunism... I dont know who is right or wrong. Both sides have an opinion that can be aired. What I do not know is... was it ever established that there was cause for a court of inquiry to be held about the incident? If so was the inquiry held? Military courts of inquiry are pretty thorough because the same mistake cannot be repeated twice without loss of life and limb. So if an officer or someone was censured for pandering to her journalistic opportunism there she should be ashamed for asking for such favors for visuals. If no inquiry was ever held and no army man in Kargil was blamed for allowing an incident, I will give her a pass personally atleast.
So Barkha if you are reading... (and somehow I think not) There is hope darling... I dont dislike you as a person, just get back to reporting basics. Sometimes simpler and shorter is better and more respected.
Joy,
Peter Jennings was an excellent anchor for the ABC newsdesk. He knew his job.
Unfortunately, he died last year of lung cancer.
A great loss, and I miss watching him anchor the evening news.
Oh and on a very base note, he was good looking too :) I like the erudite looking hotties. *sigh*
Hi Anita,
Do you agree with the fact that the media will not change and it is we who have to shuffle among the channels if we dont like the channel.
How many channels you are going to keep changing.
Regarding the point on the NDTV being the number one is because it had the reputation for it not now anyways. As I told you before even I was a fan of NDTV before.
Lets wait and rate the TRP for NDTV coming months you will agree who is the majority here and how much sensible people join the hate group.
I dont beleive that the channel has the choice of the content and it is only the people who decide the content.
There is a petition at the court regarding the mumbai coverage and lets wait and get the results about how media had the big share.
As you said we have diffrent opinions and still I dont call you and others as a hate group. Diff people have diffrent opinion what matters is what is sensible. ;-)
Dr.Charan
Dr Charan,
No, I do not find your comments hateful. You are voicing your criticism which you have a right to. I am calling certain people in other groups who are calling Barkha all kinds of vile names as hate mongers. Personal, vulgar remarks is what they are resorting to.
Yes, the coming months will decide whether NDTV stays in the leadership position. It is a free world and everyone can cast their vote which channel they want to watch. So let us wait and watchout for the CHANNEL ELECTIONS :)
Kiran (cannot really go into all Another..NYC.. too long)
Sad to hear about Jennings - a great loss to journalism.
A military inquiry cannot be held involving a civilian, even if that involves loss of life of Armed Forces personnel. These are the rules of the Indian Army.
Dahling - I don't have anything against Barkha Dutt personally, but I do have a beef comparing her with Amanpour. I mean, with all due respect, this wasn't Beirut, or the West Bank - they did have the Armed Forces and the NSG covering their rear ends.
Amanpour did Kosovo and Persia while being shot at.
Literally.
All the while without compromising the position of NATO forces.
Aham
We can certainly change the channels, as Ms. Dutt so succintly puts it, but that won't make her more responsible, or put the Armed Forces (or hostages) in any less danger than they currently are.
The point is about her (and,of course, the others) learning how to do things correctly, how to be ethical without compromising the truth, and how to admit her mistake without keeping an eye open for TRPs.
Her response, typically, was arrogant, irrelevant and completely off-the-mark.
I still don't have a problem with that - some people are what they are - I am no one to judge them. What I do have a problem with is some people actually admiring what she (and her cohorts) actually does, and trying to emulate them.
And the purpose of this (and most other) posts is to at least try to make people aware of errors and omissions.
Anita - did you just get another example of "sanctimonious and holier-than-thou attitude" - Change the channels ?
Finally - Kiran - erudite hotties ? Scandalous !!!
Just to show I don't target Ms. Dutt alone -
Sunday December 7.
Rajdeep Sardesai did a program titled Mumbai Meri Hai, in which he went to each of the strike zones. Outside the Oberoi, he spoke to three people.
One of them had his face clearly visible -- he was vice president of the Oberoi..
Well....
WOW!!!
""". """
Are you kidding me?
Hahahaha, that calls for some serious sueing action.
That sir, is unprofessional! What was the producer doing? Sleeping obviously.
Hmmmmm about military court of inquiry rules. I thought the rules covered situations where there was any dereliction of duty on the army's part where someone caved in to a journalists demand without assesing risk. The officer would be censured, certainly not Barkha. My question was, was there an inquiry. I dont know the rules myself. Must ask my daddyji sometime.
And no Joy I wasnt saying anything about you being personal about Barkha. Be my guest. Heck, I am being personal about her judgement and journalistic ethics. Perhaps I am reading your Dahling statement wrong. Not directed towards me is it?
Awesome Joy there you go.
Good one for those who still say that the channel is very professional.
Just curious do these people do it because they realy dont know that they can do it or they dont have any sense of what they do in front of the camera.
Who is the director or the producer of this program does he get involved in any way to stop the stupidity.
Thanks Again to remind that this discusiion is not to let people do what they want to do and we just keep a blind eye to it and change the channel.
Arrogance to the peak whan some one tell that I will do it my way you go ahead and dont watch me. ;-(
Where the hell is professinalism and ethics or common sense here
Dr.Charan
Dear me - of all people... that Dahling statement was not sarcastic, neither did I mean that you thought I was being personal about Barkha (didn't give a hoot if you did, though .. been called all sortsa names, y'know).
Sorry I came across that way.
Military court of inquiry involving military personnel - there was one.
The Colonel who authorized the firing of the gun (Bofors it was too - oh the irony) was discharged from duty. Dishonorably.
Right - one more -
Vir Sanghvi (Congr...err..Hindustan Times)
"If this is the level of the navy’s leadership, are we surprised that the terrorists came in so easily? The Navy Chief should ponder over the damage his foolish press conference has done his service. The Navy deserves better."
This was the written in defense of Ms. Dutt as to the Admiral Mehta affair.
Now I ask you - the matter is being disputed. It has been challenged in the court of law. Couldn't Mr Sanghvi have waited till the verdict BEFORE he hung out the Admiral to dry. I mean - the words - they leave nothing to imagination, do they ?
The man is the acting Chief of Indian Navy, for crying out loud !!! He deserves a little respect, wouldn't you think ?
This is our mainstream media.
But of course, what else would you expect - they are continuing the fine work started by those doyens of INC - J Nehru and V K Krishna Menon.
Did you guys know that Nehru actually once said "India does not need an army - it needs a police force".
And reduced the army from 200,000 to 100,000 over a period of three years, along with VKKM.
During the time China was building up its army and moving in to Tawang, Aksai Chin and Rezang-La.
No wonder we got our rear ends kicked in '62.
No wonder we're such a mess.
Kiran
Sueing action ? When was the last time you came here ?
Most things that happen here call for Direct action !!
And still we debate. And listen to our revered mainstream media spouting their infinite wisdom on one side of the story, ad nauseum.
One more here....
This is for Barkha. Here is what was frutstrating about her reporting during those days:
Her yelling out "Natasha, Natasha, there was another explosion" she behaved like an immature terrorised child.
She ha've been there-Kargil and all. Some restraint would have been in order.
This type of nervous reporting on a live camera watched by millions of people will drive them nuts.
Adding complete chaos to the alredy existing problems.
Thanks bharkha for adding more fumes. Is this where you want us to change the channels when you shout out loud on your voice.
Dr.Charan
This is a comment that I was trying to post it on NDTV.com ...but it very well applies to you too.
*********************************
I think that second most horrendous act ( the first being that of the terrorists), is the way you media people have behaved. For all of you (be it aajtak, ndtv, ibn, etc.) it was nothing but a spicy event to provide as much spicy news as possible. You had no regard for the life of the victims, the security personnel involved. The only thing that mattered to the media was who is able to capture the best details first, whether it's a victim's first hand account or NSG commandos dropping from the helicopter. I don't understand why didn't it make sense to you that the NSG commandos were carrying out a secret operation by dropping from the building and if you show that on the television, the terrorist might as well see that and know about their plans. Are you that stupid or was it done deliberately? I don't understand what sense does it make when you ask a victim, who has just witnessed people around him/her being killed and escaping a narrow death, How do they feel? I mean how would a person feel coming out of that situation, and what sort of question is that? Have you no humanity left in you? Are you as thick skinned as the politicians? I agree that there is no rule defined for such situations, but doesn't the media have any sense of self-obedience and restraint. And it's not that you are illiterate, ignorant people.
And as if this is not the worse from you, Barkha Dutt clarifies her and media's stand in the whole event. Don't you have the decency to feel sorry for your acts and have the guts to apologize to the public? I guess it's useless to rant and rave about all this, since I am speaking to the wall. You are no different from our Sonias and Mulayams.
Hey Akshay,
Thats one of the best comment every sensible person wants to post it here.
As you said instead of being sorry these miserable people try to justify their acts.
You have got every point that i would think of. Thanks.
To re-state what you said NDTV does not accept comments or criticism it would just put a stupid justification.
Sorry is the word 1 million people as you can call hate group wants from you. Please also visit the signature group for petitions to record ur vote against media
Dr.Charan
Akshay
Right on mate. I think the only thing that we can do is exactly what Ms. Dutt so succinctly put.
Do not watch NDTV, CNN-IBN or any of the Indian English News channels.
If you want news, go to BBC.
Or pick up The Statesman, or any of your local journals.
The jury is still out on TOI, but I am losing hope.
Avoid Congr..err..Hindustan Times especially.
Also, try rediff.com. Nice, balanced reporting - although they do go over the top sometimes.
Dear Joy,
Liked your last post. informative and interesting reading.
I was wondernig though - do we have the capacity to engage in a full scale conflict ? Maybe we are scared for a reason ? Any thoughts ?
:)
Kiran
It was Peter Jennings, not Mark.
Nice touch.
Touche.
And mea culpa.
Anita
Thanks.
No - we do not have the capacity to engage in a full-scale conflict.
What we do have, thanks to our nuclear armament, is a Nash Equilibrium with China.
Incursions by China in Tawang, Arunachal Pradesh are going on as we speak, and, despite what everyone will have you believe, it is not the CIA who supplies most of the equipment to the terrorists - it is Beijing who does that, because an unstable Western front means India needs to divert its troops there, and be forced to ignore the East, where there is already much movement and belligerence from Nepal, the North-East seperatists, all funded by Beijing.
That is why, more than ever, we need to enforce (and I mean using force - deadly, if necessary) to quieten our neighbors from the West, and the situation in Kashmir.
Look - I am all for secularism, but secularism needs the implementation of one set of laws, applicable for all religions, creed and caste - like the US.
And you need to enforce it.
You cannot have one set of rules for one and a different set for the other, especially if the other in this case is the majority.
This fosters resentment, naturally, and the creation of BDs and VHPs and the Togadias and Purohits.
My gripe against the media, most of which is controlled by personal interests, exhibits personal bias and masquerades that as mainstream media.
Also, my gripe is that the history as we know it, and is taught in schools is not the whole story - rather, not even a part of it. Again, portrays one side, with the fervent pitch of socialistic leaders rendering the whole thing unquestionable.
BTW - did you know that Sardar Patel - the Bismarck of India, the man responsible for actually creating what we know as India today was awarded the Bharat Ratna in 1991 - 40 or so years after his death ? If that is not a crime, what is ?
You want a different view - the whole story - read R.C. Mazumder's History Of Indian Freedom Movement. Prof. Mazumder, known as the dean of India history till 1948 or so, was inexplicably rendered persona non grata by the Indian government, despite accolades of his book "A Brief History of India", and Prof. Tarachand, a mediocre scholar, at best, promoted vigorously.
The book was given rave reviews by the American Historical Society for its factual correctness, and lauded by the Germans and Japanese also.
Finally - one last titbit - read about the 1921 Moplah uprising, if you can.
I hope others are reading this, too..
Anita...get a grip of yourself...you sound insanely obsessed on facebook.
and here, for that matter.
and get a Life!!!!
(Sho)bhaa bhaa Black sheep
have you any wool (to throw in our eyes) ?
Yessir Yessir 3 bags full!
Barkha ko falsely praise karke humko bakra mat banaao...
Christiane Amanpour???
Christiane Amanpour???
Christiane Amanpour???
Christiane Amanpour???
Christiane Amanpour???
Barkha Dutt likened to Christane Amanpour???
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
This amounts to defamation of Ms. Amanpour
Forgive her Lord, she (shobhaaaarghhh!!!) knoweth not...
*convulsing in shock and laughter*
@ !!!
If I am obssessed , does not you following me everywhere and then reading my posts and commenting on them make you even more obssessed - hilarious. But, if it were not for your kind, how would we have some humor in this debate. Good contribution !
Joy,
Thanks for another interesting post.
Can you make a link below the blog which has all the links for all the interesting reading you advise ? I would be interested in reading and learning more.
Thanks
1. The history part (only part, though - you gotta buy the book for the whole story) can be found here
2. The Sino-Indian problem can be found all over major newspapers and media outlets, including TOI and Rediff. Go to the BBC, if you can - there are some op-ed pieces there.
3. Nehru ordering reduction of the army can be found here
4. Like I said, Google Moplah/Khilafat - pick up the history book, you'll know all about it..
@ joy
totally backing you.
I have no energy to read all the comments...so i might be repeating someone here...swwy!
Bharka is a joke..and its really weird to ask us to to our job will she does hers! She cannot function without us, and she needs us more than we do her, one Bharka can be replaced with a million other faster, sharper ones.
As a journalist her language is poor and repetitive. She doesn’t know how to appear dramatic with strong, sensible words..she is dramatic with theatrics! Haha!
I can even forgive her lack of sense of politics and the insipid questions she asked the hosts ….What I really cant handle is that she even thinks we r blind
(Did u see the show where she talks nonstop to the audience "here lain the broken glasss and here layeth the cutlery cracked and more random drivel…)
Every time she screeched..”down with politicians” I felt like saying “ down with morons”
What a clown! She is priceless! Hahahah!
Mystiquedew,
This is addressed to you as well as all the other Barkha "haters".
You seem to know so much about how she talks, how she behaves , her sense of politics and everything else.
Isnt it strange you keep watching someone whom you profess to dislike so much ? Why ? :)
hey shobs, your column was tripe when i had to sub-edit at the Express and it still is... go figure
Hi Anita,
U sound like shoobaa
Where is the freedom of speech or freedom of critisim.
So if we dont like some one then you advice to turn blind eye to the channel.
I think you propose the same solution like bharkha who asked everyone to change the channel.
The topic here is not ignoring a channel or some ones reporting. It is about what they talk on the camera and how it affects other peoples life.
The very basic understanding that the discusiion is about endangering life's of people is why this is a pretty serious issue.
If the same set of activity or talk is on some show or film I agree with you to just ignore and close eyes and ears and pretent to be dumb.
Supporting some one disregard of the life of people of they tend to put at risk is very illogical according to me.
Thanks ,
Dr. Charan
Hey Anita,
This is the same reporter who gave a live report about the number hostages held up even after the security person incharge told there are no hostages in Trident.
Do you still suggest just ignore her if u dont like her, what about the life of people whom she put at risk and who will be reposnsible for that. Accountable person always becomes the governement or the police.
Again the government did not shut up her mouth and give her guidelines may be the govt should baby sit milion media person and remove all their phones and watch their back. Is this what all propose.
Every life is worth and we have to make sure that though we dont save them we should not put them at risk. Telling everyone the govt did not stop us from opening our mouth is seriously a silly and childish rationale. ;-(
Dr.Charan
Dr Charan,
I have no knowledge of this trident thing that you are talking about. I do not know what your source of information is but in times such as these I know all kinds of rumors fly around.
Yes, on a general basis, I agree with you that we should not endanger the lives of any human.
I do not know about the case that you talk but my sense and faith is that Barkha would not do such a horrible thing knowingly.
A very interesting article , the link for which I am giving here. It supports my view that the primary onus of deciding if the media should have been allowed there, rests with the govt and NSG ! Everyone please have a read ....
"And while pointing a microphone at a concerned relative and asking him if he's worried may be bad form, it is not criminal. The charge of endangering lives, which has squarely fallen on the media's shoulders, takes the focus away from the people who actually had that responsibility - the government and the NSG.
What is being termed a failure of the media, is in fact, a huge failure on the part of our security forces. The real fault lies, not with the media, who reported what they were legally permitted to, but of the heads of security who went on camera and gave away operational details, of the officers who admitted on-camera to a lack of manpower, lack of planning, and lack of equipment."
Anita girl,
you read me wrong! I don't hate her at all..Not in the least!
She amuses me vastly :) :)
Mystique
and oh..the primary onus of letting media in or not is in the hands of govt...I agree I agree..
And I am so glad they allowed them, else we would have missed Bharka altogether!
I now go away with another doubt in mind on whom should I attribute the primary onus of Bharka being a mindless turkey??
Anita,
You are all over the place. Why are you joining the so called "hate groups" in facebook if dont believe in them. The only reason you could have such passion to defend NDTV would be if you work for NDTV or in some way associated with it. If thats the case, you should just observe the pulse of the people - take the learnings from the incident and MOVE ON!!!
More than 20k people are not crazy to believe that Media could have behaved better. And "better" is the key word here. A lot of people have appreciated too - but you have to admit and take it in your stride that there were gaffes.
Your views are so extreme and I dont see you coming to a middle ground in any of the discussions I have read so far - Facebook, or here. Be open minded. Take in the observations from thousands of people and get them across to your channel.
Have you noticed that no such groups formed for AAJ TAK and such channels? That is because we had NO expectation from them! They thrive on sensationalism and they continued to do that. NDTV and the likes ended up disappointing us as our expectation from them was different and in line with the standards they had created.
NDTV should just learn from the mistakes instead of publicly refuting and elegantly move on. Show us that you can be more responsible. Acknowledge your shortcomings. And you will gain the respect back.
-Ekta
Ekta,
I have given the reasons why I joined those hate groups earlier over there so I will not repeat them here.
I am not getting into talking numbers. Again, I have addressed that too. You seem to be reading my posts, so you will know my take on this numbers arguments
My point was not that the Media did not make gaffes. Sure, they made some, but all channels and all anchors did. Why single out just one. ?
Yes, I do think too that some shots maybe should not have been shown, but that was more for the security agencies in charge there to assess.
Why do you call my views so extreme ? I am only expressing my thoughts as I see them. Why is that extreme ? I am not going out personally attacking any boarder first , like many seem to be doing to me. I am not saying that the media did not make any mistakes, I am not saying things were handled in the best possible manner. I am saying, given the circumstances and it being the first situation of its kind, they did what they did and will learn and evolve.
No, I do not work for nor am I associated with NDTV. :-)
Some are born stubborn and some have stubbornness thrust upon them. I do not understand why Ms. Anita is not able to grasp what has been spoken here? She says, ? Well, that's because she has been linked to Amanpour for no reasons. The author of the post herself singled out and gave 'extra-taali' to her. Moreover she is a senior journalist with a huge experience both on and off field. And if she makes a fool of herself then of course it will be highlighted. Arnab or Rajdeep weren't clean throughout either but both of them were in studio and Barkha was on field. If you are on field your responsibility increases leaps and bounds which wasn't the case.
And for those who are saying, 'just change the channel', I would say that's being equally irresponsible a la Barkha and co.
Attack on media for terror coverage is misplaced
12 Dec 2008, 0313 hrs IST, Gen V N Sharma
The detailed television coverage of the terrorist attack from 26 November onwards gripped viewers all over India and parts of the world.
Thousands studied the stories and discussions provided by the print media and their websites. The Indians, led by the anger of Mumbaikars, seem to have woken up our lethargic country as never before.
There are reports that I&B and home ministries are peeved with the media. Concerned TV channels have been questioned why action should not be taken to cancel their licenses. While there is need for battle training of cameramen and correspondents, they have performed effectively and brought battle scenes to our homes.
Gah!
yea i read that...is there some sorta hidden meaning that all of
"India-rich and poor" has woken up coz of mediocre Barkha's soap opera???
Girl, u r so busy defending them, u r at the risk of digressing like them..:) :) stick to topic at hand....
refreshing your memory its about Barkha on trial, Not some army official on the terrorist attack!
There you go anita.
The best way to defend your idiology or views is by calling the fact as rumour.
This is something which happened live on the running camera where the details from the hotel owner were given to the press.
Can you call something which happened on live camera as rumour and close your eyes and say that bharkha is right. Its a sad fact that we people are refusing to accept the reason and just shut of our reasoning sense.
U know wat u have the right to call it a rumour off course its right of denial
U still go about telling that the security people are wrong. No one is here for the defense of security people. We all agree every system failed that includes the media people too.
We dont really keep putting our point in just saying only the media is wrong but we also agree that other systems failed.
But you are clearly saying from day one that media is never wrong and bharkha is never wrong and what media did is the right thing.
Being open minded is trying see both sides of the coin and not just sticking with one. There are numorous reasons out there given by experts and senior journalist around the world which points out that the media has done some mistakes.
Its totally illogical to be just stubborn on taking any reasons and just supporting one set of people.
Dont you seee even one reason to see that the media could have done better. If not then its totally waste of time to reason out with strongmided persons.
You know where to find the fact about the Trident hotel incident which I mentioned before or you can go on the dinial mode and stick with ur points. ;-)
I would be really happy if u come back saying the media had made some mistakes and bharkha too.
Dr.Charan
Hey Anita,
Dont be searching here is the link for the rumour which was just made up ;-)
Dr.Charan
This one too about our owen Christiane Amanpour; ;-)
Ler try apply some reasoning to our thoughts.
Dr.Charan
Dr Charan,
No, I have not been saying from day one that media is never wrong. I have been saying that the primary onus lay on the security agencies and the govt. If this was such a sensitive operation, why was the media allowed to be hounding over there in the first place.
The incident you refer to, I have not watched on TV. Like I mentioned earlier, I was not watching too much during the terror attack as it was too unbearable for me. But yes, if such a thing did indeed happen, it is a terrible gaffe. You have given me a link to someones blog. That is not an official statement by someone in authority that such a thing did take place, but yes I am willing to concede, that indeed if something like that happened it was a mistake..
Like General Sharma has said in the link I pasted above....I think this was a very unique situation and there is need for battle training of cameramen and correspondents.
Also, I saw the commandos being dropped on the terrace being aired by every news channel. Was not that a security threat too? Why are other channels and prominent journalists not being targeted. Why is Barkha being made the sole scapegoat ?
""""."""""
But Anita, the point is they are SUPPOSED TO KNOW THIER JOBS WHETHER THERE IS A CRISIS OR NOT. Human error does not enter into it. Bias is normal but inaccuracy and hysteria is not.
As professionals they are already supposed to know what to do and how to be objective. They are not supposed to need briefing at everypoint. That is what experience is supposed to do for you.
I dont care if they have battle training or whatever. At the very least Ileast expect them to uphold journalistic ethics and be professional.
Another Kiran,
Yes I agree ethics should always be upheld , and yes they should know their jobs.
But, dont you think sometimes that can be easier said. I mean, when you are for the first time, in such a terrorist situation, which goes on for so so long, dont you think any human, howsoever brilliant, can make some gaffes. Yes, they should not have been made ideally, but then everyone from the police to the govt to all the media people made some mistakes....why is only Barkha being bashed. The debate would have made more sense if it was regarding media faults and how to address those and not directed at one personality....dont you think ?
You point is accepted well ;-)
"Why is Barkha being made the sole scapegoat ? "
Good question and everyone ask this a lot. Why just her????? Why not others generally its media right ;-)
Well here is my reasonig why her
She is one of the leading journalist who have set up a standard and is one of the expertise in handing situation.
She has got the prestigious padma shri award.
Dont we expect some sort of basic common sense of professsionalism from such a person. Anyone can be wrong and make mistakes but with vast expertise should cease to follow other media and set an example.
Do you still expect someone of this calibre to do such silly mistakes and claim that the person is after all human, emotional got carried by the moment.
I understand some of the reason which gave is making you support her but its the same reason which doesnt make me accpet her mistakes.
;-)
Worst case is she writes an rationale to reson out that she is right.
Dr.Charan
Dr Charan you just said everything I was going to say.
"With greater power comes greater responsibility." Makes sense now...why Barkha Dutt is the lightenng rod?
Hey Guys,
One interesting article by Arundati Roy.
Something seriously wrong. ;-(
Dr.Charan
Doc
Without wishing to be mean, Arundhati Roy, that profound source of inspirational knowledge with professed hatred of Hinduism in particular and India in general, happens to be the niece of one Prannoy Roy.
I find Arundhatis articles too complex to read, so left after reading some. :)
Barkha, is a great and daring. My full support to her
Hi Joy,
Are you talking about the hatred towards a religion whose leader and members orchestrated killing thousands of people under the watchful eyes of the government and police officers.
Hatred towards a judicial system where the leader still remains as a chief minister of the state and its member out on bail terrorizing people out there.
Dr.Charan
Sure, these journos put their lives at risk, get us the stories that no one else will tell, hats off to them. But surely there has to be a code of conduct for TV journos, like they have in the BBC? Barkha's operatic histrionics, her flagrant attempts to make every incident her very own personal experience is nauseating to watch. The difference betwen her intemperate, over-the-top, subjective coverage and the ones of other journos is that she is lauded and awarded for her Oprah-like tele-evangelistic performances. She is the worst kind of celebrity-anchor, the kind that James Brooks warned us about in the film "Broadcast News" - where William Hurt is seen manipulating emotions, squeezing out tears for the camera in reaction shots, and then turning around completely dry-eyed after "cut!" and going about business as usual. Ughh!! Barkha is no Christiane Amanpour. She is way too in love with her own celebrity. BTW, this is not a hate campaign. It's a natural reaction to the overdose of saccharine being rammed down our thoats in the name of responsible journalism. Ee-nough already!
Go Ahead delete my comment. Crush one more patriotic indian in the process. Bakha's journalism is an attempt to degrade people who follow Hinduism.What did NDTV expose in the final reckoning. A) The response of the congress government was pathetic, they displayed no leadership in concluding this operation with a sense of urgency. B) How would this government respond if a hostage crisis arisis in future, Do they have the gumption of putting Nation ahead & come with a policy of No Negotiation with terrorist.C)How is the government to respond against enemy country when they stage such atrocious acts on our citizens,The media turned this nation into a race of cowardice & denigrated us to meek slaughter lambs before the terrorist. D) When do we get up & ask the right questions, is really our armed forces capable of defending us.Congress has perpetuated a heinous crime by giving bullet proofs vests which can be pierced by bullets.E)Where is Barkha when seditious speeches are made against this country in this very own country.STOP SPREADING LIES BARKHA WE DON'T LIKE YOU PERIOD.
Shobha,
When you read every comment here you got to understand the sentiments of people.If you can't connect to reality it just exposes your dishonesty,Wake up nobody likes the ilks barkha or their biased one sided journalism who pamper to muslims.I do not see any professionalism in her coverage & elevating her to a superstar is the biggest lie.She is a insult to journalism & a quack.
No Doc. I am talking about the religion that has been around for more than 2000 years.
A religion that gave the world the first treatises on philosophy and science.
The only religion in the world whose temples have been looted and ravaged, its people insulted and enslaved on their own land for 900 years.
I am talking about a religion who gets the short end of the shrift every time - be it the ravaging of its temples, burning of its books, ridicule of its theology by people who have IQ lower than a plank's.
I am talking about a religion who has produced a small set of fanatics after 950 years of persecution and suffering.
While others have produced 90000
after less than 50 years of so-called persecution and suffering.
And yet it is the small set who get the limelight as the faces of the religion. Again and again. By people like you.
And you wonder why they are frustrated.
Pity.
Anonymous
Amen to that.
This is completely being partial toward Barkha Dutt. A journalist of her stature shouldn't commit silly mistakes and ask people standing outside the Oberoi waiting for their loved ones..what do you think, whether your father will make it out? Completely ridiculous and such dialouges are not even used in Balaji Soaps.
@ joy,
Superb post on hindu persecution. Keep them coming....very informative
Anita
My intent was not to focus on Hindu persecution - my intent was to focus on the role of our (and global) media on increasing the religious divide by focusing on one side only.
My point is - till people get educated with a balanced view of things, they will react according to situation, and will be incapable of introspection and get a balanced view of things.
Hope you agree to that ...
Hi Joy,
Have you been following this Arundhati Roy thingie ? If so, can you tell me what she says and what you oppose in easy words. I find it too complex to read her :). Thanks a lot
Shobha, I have the utmost regard for you, and a lot of admiration too. However, don't defend Barkha.
The way she has sensationalized the Mumbai terror attacks was really shameful. Where was the need to grandstand so much and be so utterly indiscreet? even wrote to her asking her why she did what she did. A calm and respectful letter, with no rage pr hate. She did not even respond.
At the outset, best wishes for a calm, peaceful and affectionate Christmas to everyone. I have just perused these highly emotive/ emotional dialogues above. What I would like to point out and suggest, with utmost humility, is that we need to improve the manner in which we perceive issues and debate upon them. The media’s role in society, will at all times be argued, at times found acceptable and appreciated, at times found otherwise and criticized. What one needs to look at is specifics of the issues, operational aspects, what and where things were handled correctly and what and when not. The evolution of a desire to make scathing remarks with the intention of hurting one another is just what bad elements desire, with a view to cause a rift in society, and it would be most undesirable for us to fall prey to such intentions. I would like to request those who blog anonymously, so as to vent their negative views, to consider first drafting their comments in a manner if the same were to be ultimately uploaded with their names and identities displayed. They may choose to blog such comments thereafter, anonymously or under their identities. This approach will result in a better quality of writing and resulting debates and may yield in positive results in terms of acceptance, resulting action and a greater uniting effect. We as a responsible society have an important role to play in guiding leaders among us and other significant people/ personalities on the right path. Do think about it. I mean well when making this suggestion.
Shoba..The very people who are behind her are not some senseless idiots...they are well educated, successful ,well-employed and Intelligent professionals as barkha is. Only difference is they don't come on Tv. There must be some truth or the other if so many people dont like her way of reporting.
Journalists like doctors cant get (and should not get) emotional. Will you go to a doctor who is so emotional about your health conditon?
As I viewer I feel mordern electronic media journalists (like barkha and unlike Karan Thapar) too loud with absolutely no substance.
BARKHA IS A BAD WOMAN!
you are aged , lie down and take some rest
Joy,
There was no India when invaders came here. We were small nations fighting against each other. So please get your facts right when you say that "we" endured invasions silently. Small kingdoms who cannot the stand the sight of each other are no match against organized armies. And neither did the kingdoms cave in. They did put up a fight when they were not too busy fighting each other. We got what we deserved. FYI I am a Hindu.
Ms De...you can deduce from the comments what the popular feelings are for your pal Ms Dutt. The Indian public is not the same anymore. We will not take nonsense...whether it is a Muthalik or a Barkha Dutt of NDTV!
Dear Shobha
The problem is with you "On the Top" people.. U make a mistake and u need to goto the bottom.. Else u would keep others at "Granted" status.. the way barkha does..
:) Buck up u moron!!
Oh wow... a blogging by Shobha?
Lots of free time? not much parties happening around?
Well, how could you have said this when after you blogged so much w.r.t. the attacks. You should-a read more into a couple of media watchdog websites before forming an idea, or opinion.
Read:
And if indeed you are convinced that Barkha Dutt be taken off air, do join the facebook group, CAN YOU PLEASE TAKE BARKHA OFF AIR?:
Success has gotten into her head - Barkha's - and that is why she is the one most targetted. And lately, she is acting like a buffoon. More the reason. She is loud and irritating. She sermonized. She pretends that she is a star. SHE IS NOT! Will someone please tell her?
And if you will watch the 26/11 tapes now - you will see how the paki bastardos were watching TV telecast and advising their goons.
Vindication of a point?
And just coz you are Shobha de the celeb, you can't tell ppl what to think. Don't forget that these are the ppl who buy your shallow books.
Oh puhleeez Ms De! Is that all you have to say in her defense? That she was at it for 40 hours without food, water and the loo? That is why we call them "professionals." Perhaps the word slipped you by.
And the fact that there are over 4,900 of us who want her to take a break and get in touch with her inner journalist again (rather than the aggressive, drama queen she has become of late), means that there are 4,900 lesser number of "viewers (who) want to hear what she is saying." And the reason why we are all protesting? Because we WANT her to do her job - and right now, she clearly isn't. I personally want her to go back to being the journalist she was - and I certainly hope she's able to sift through all the criticism and glean what she can from it to do precisely that.
You wonder why public is angry with Barkha? Here's an example.
or
And Christiane Amanpour??? Aaach Thooooo. She is just as anti-Indian as any. Actually I take that back, the comparison is came upon this post just by chance.
Joy and Anita, do get a room. It's too late in the day(s), so you probably have, or not. :) No offense meant.
Jokes apart, I do agree with Joy, and not without reason. I was watching the entire darned thing on TV, most of the time, and I also watched the reportage on Kargil. (Two of my first cousins being in the very war). So, the statements are corroborated, she DID make a stupid mistake back then, was apparently slapped by a Major (for giving out the location), and was told to clear the &$%^ out. No denying that, and that is definitely not a rumor.
Secondly, I did watch her interviewing several 'important' people outside the Taj ( on the D-day), while it was an open-for-all. I did see the disinterest, while she talked to the elite, and people apparently affected by the tragely (which went on live). It was almost..Hmm...NEXT...hmm..Next! As bad as the time during the time of Gujarat quakes, and the reporter from Aaj Tak asking the boy who is barely alive ( since being dug out of a hole)" how are you feeling". A total WTF moment.
Furthermore, I don't know, if anyone has asked it here, but has anyone questioned WHY the Black Cats were transported by a BEST bus? Anyone? And why O why did they lose two men? Aren't they supposed to be trained for the very such thing? I do not mean any disrecpect, but who is to blame here?
I mean, screw the journalist, she is what she is, enough has been said about her, and I personally have no respect for her whatsoever. But defending her, like this? I hang my head in shame, really. Being an ex-journalist myself (of no repute whatsoever).
So yes, I am saddened Ms Dey, by this mindless, or rather biased defensive post.
Maybe not a worthwhile point, but something on my mind for some time now.
NDTV’s ‘pass the buck’ and less willing to ‘buck stops here’
‘Buck stops here’ with a person of authority willing to take responsibility of the issue and provide solution, rather than pass them up to higher authorities.
In no way, this program show does it. So, why this name? Or am I missing something?
Which part of your brain do you leave at home when you write this?
I saw this Discovery feature a couple of days back on the 26/11 terror attacks. Rajdeep (gale mein mike phaas gaya) Sardesai was saying in his usual (thank god not inimitable) style "If the government didn't want us to report from there, they should have set up a central news center from where we would have got updates. I think that didn't happen!" You know what, that was a precise MTV One Tight Slap moment. I mean does he know where he sh*^s from? Front or back?
I'm sorry I may not sound very logical but you do get the point. People like Barkha and Rajdeep should be banned and locked up in a trunk that should be dropped into the deep seas! And I'm sad and ashamed that at one point I indeed did have a lot of respect for these nitwits!
Shobha,
Is she doing her job!!?
Can you explain in detail?
"I'll talk to Gulam..."
"Tell me what to do? tell me what to do now?"
These few sentences will show whether she was extending her power as a journalist to participate in lobbying efforts and the motive is so unclear.
And you call it "extendeding the call of duty"!!
To comment on your column - I ask - Is it a case that a celebrity will think that the remaining all are just dumb-heads?
She calls all Gujaratis 'traditionally effete people' if they ellect Mr.Narendra Modi - what do you infer from that - CAN A JOURNALIST BRAND A SECTION OF A NATION WITH SUCH OBJECTIONABLE WORDS ON TV? Is is what the 'call of duty' demands?
Was it right to air the defence positions on air - while the Kargil war was going on?
Is she really a journalist or a fake?
These people and her employers are just a piece of a dynastic party!!
I take pride in denouncing any anti nationals.
My 7yr kid can cover an event much better than these fellows.
Well it comes very late as response to the opinion, but its so ridiculous that one need to pen down what is logical and correct.
This is the worst of Shoba De, generally sensible she is. Anyone who compares Barkha Dutt's theatrical style of reporting with Christiane Amanpour perspective based investigation and reporting is simply displaying his or her poor understanding of conflict and crisis reporting and journalism in general.
Coming to the particular episode under question for which platitudes have been heaped on all BRAVE reporters, according to journalistic greats from Columbia, from where Barkha is reportedly a graduate, and other iconic institutions, this was the most irresponsible journalistic endeavors that can be imagined. Not only these reporters were feeding information to terrorists sitting at we all know where, they were also obstructing interventions which were poorly planned in the first place.
Indians have yet not learned that revealing all information as it unfolds during a crisis is the WORST and not best journalism. Secondly, if anyone wants to learn reporting from Amanpour should know that only a limited display of emotion is required while reporting, any more of it smacks of theater and not serious journalism.
Lastly, staying in a bunker for two days in one set of clothes is not a sign a great reporting. India TV reporters regularly go waist deep in flood to report and appear live on screen, which is going a tad too far for TRP grabbing.
Shobe De may I suggest that you stick to yr porno stuff comparing male organ to turkey neck and such hillarious horny stuff....Pls stop endorsements. |
While I've been gardening for some time, there's always so much more to learn. The gardening and growing learning curve is so very steep, and long, it seems, perhaps owing to the variability of successful techniques from region to region, climate to climate, and even one growing season to the next. Adaptability and an "oh, well!" disposition are essentials in gardening, just as much as good gloves, compost, and a trusty trowel, I've decided!
To help me, though, and you, too, thankfully we've got Robyn Jasko. Introduced to me via my buddy Jodi (proprietress extraordinaire of Asheville's beloved Short Street Cakes), Robyn has just published a lovely little book on how to grow, and grow well. Home Sweet Homegrown takes your hand and lovingly walks you through the entire growing spectrum, from seed-starting to sowing to harvesting all the way up through cooking and even preserving what you've grown. It's compact enough to fit in your the back pocket of your gardening jeans, but dense enough to become a go-to source time and time again.
Robyn and her publisher, Microcosm Publishing, have generously offered two small measure readers copies of her book, along with the 5-packet seed kit pictured above. How cool is that?! All that's needed to enter the giveaway is a comment saying what you're looking forward to growing. For me, it's pumpkins. I have 6 varieties started and I can't wait to bake, carve and decorate with them come Autumn. YES!
I'll run the giveaway through next Wednesday, May 16th, midnight EST. In your comment, please leave a means of reaching you should you be the winner(s), via a link back to your blog or website or by leaving your email address in your comment (don't forget this essential step, folks! I've had far too many numbers selected by the Random Widget only to find there's no way whatsoever of reaching the commenter!).
Even if you don't win, do check out Robyn's book and her website, growindie.com. This lady knows what she's doing and has got an enormous amount of seasoned gardening wisdom at her (dirty!) fingertips! Thank you, Robyn, and thank you Microcosm!
127 comments:
Here in Rome backyards are a rare luxury so, after years of daydreaming about getting my hands dirty, I'm finally starting my very own rooftop terrace mini-garden. I hope to grow my very own fresh herbs, lettuce, tomatoes, lemons and strawberries. Happy gardening!
I am looking forward to growing watermelons, I can eat my weight in them daily!
I'd love to grow fresh herbs and tomatoes! Fresh herbs add so much to a dish (not to mention the compound butters that I could make)...
I just dug a potato patch this year and I'm so excited to harvest them for the first time!
I would love to win this book! I'm growing the basics- organic lettuces, cilantro, Chard, carrots.
What a super sweet-looking book!
I'm growing a slew of things this year but I'm most excited about the kaleidoscope carrot mix. I tend to grow things I can't find at our fantastic farmer's market, so that often means raising the brightest, oddest varieties of things!
(luckyolive at gmail)
I'm looking forward to the three kinds of watermelons I have started from seed. There's nothing quite like a cool fresh watermelon on a warm summer afternoon.
I would love someone to hold my hand through gardening. All I've ever grown successfully were tomatoes and herbs.
okra, okra and more okra. im such a southern girl :)
We have 45 sweet potato slips scheduled for arrival sometime next month. All heritage varieties from Sand Hill Preservation Society. Exciting!!!!
okra, okra and more okra. im such a southern girl :)
AND i cant follow instructions. hee.
[email protected]
How exciting. I'm most looking forward to the cucumbers and tomatoes from the garden. The girls love to pick a ripe tomato and just snack on it right in the middle of the garden.
I've got my herbs and tomatoes but I want to grow beans and squash this year and I get confused with all the varieties. I need to know what will work where I live and want to grow to can and eat all winter. My newest adventure this year was an Orange Fizz Geranium. It smells wonderful and I was told I could bake with it.
[email protected]
Jennifer Brewer
I've been looking forward to my tomatoes of course, as well as zucchini. But I'm most excited this year about my small test crop of heirloom grain corn - I'm just starting to foray into grain growing!
Tomatillos, I'm addicted to the salsa verde we canned last year!
This year is a big year for us and we are growing more than we ever have. I also have pumpkins growing, for the first time mind you. :)
Sweet potatoes are in the ground also, another first time crop.
Thanks for the chance to win such a great prize!
You can find me at
I always look forward to basil - my long hot summers give me a bumper crop.
[email protected]
I'm looking forward to growing beans, so I can watch my daughter eat them right from the vine. It's more fun to eat the vegetables you grow of course!
I'm looking forward to growing some tomatoes! They are by far my favorite garden fruit. However, this year I'm going to attempt to grow some of the giant pumpkin variety, just for fun! :)
Strawberries! Hoping to find some of the alpine strawberry species!
cLuderer(at)gmail(dot)com
thanks!
Caitlin
I'm looking forward to growing garden huckleberries this summer. They're not true huckleberries, but some strange solanaceous plant that you can prepare like real huckleberries (with the aid of lots of sugar)!
hoping our little urban garden will produce well this year (haven't had much success in the past). would love to win that book!
I've been wanting to start a pizza garden, or at least some herbs, but my conditions are less than optimal. What a great giveaway, thanks for the opportunity! (celticautumn69atyahoodotcom)
That lasagna gardening looks interesting! So far I've got beets and peas in the ground with tomatoes soon following, but I'm such a hesitant gardener and would love to read this book in hopes of becoming knowledgeable and confident of my green thumb!
This year my husband has done all the work...just a week or two out and our sugar snaps are already looking REALLY good. Those are my favorite out of the whole season, so I'm eagerly awaiting them!
Sarah M
[email protected]
This year I'm looking forward to the challenge of gardening in northern NY. Planting commences next week with my friend who has so kindly offered to share her garden space with us as we have just a lake for our backyard.
I'm trying my hand at rhubarb this year, My first time artichokes are coming along beautifully!
I can't wait to head to the farmer's market and pick up some herbs to grow. I love flavored mints, like pineapple, in my water in the summer time.
Basil and tomatoes so I can make my favorite pasta sauce!
penrynsdreams at gmail dot com
I'm adding strawberries this year but the think I look forward to the most every year are fresh cucumbers! bonnie(at)weboardshop(dot)com
I'm looking forward to planting tomatoes.
I don't know how to leave my email address without making it public
I'm looking forward to hot peppers! Lots of hot peppers!
I always look forward to herbs and veggies, but this year I'm especially excited about the new cut flower bed at the community garden!
I'm looking forward to cinnamon basil, & cucumbers :)
[email protected]
Looks like a very informative book. Something for every gardener. I'm growing a lot of herbs this year, and freezing anything that's left over at the end of the season so I can enjoy them year round.
This looks like a great book!! Thanks. sharonbosw(at)gmail(dot)com
I'm looking forward to my cucumbers. Just look today and i have a little,bitty cucumber growing, about 1/2 inch. I just can't wait for them to get big enough.
[email protected]
I forgot to mention what I am most excited to grow this year. Kale and Chard and oh zucchini. I better stop there. Thanks again, sorry for the repeat. sharonbosw(at)gmail(dot)com
I am looking forward to tomatoes- all shapes, colors and flavors.
Thanks for sharing.
[email protected]
Tomatoes and basil!!! I can't seem to get enough of both in the summertime.
What a lovely book! Last year we did the CSA route. This year we can finally do our own garden! i'm looking forward to green beans, tomato & strawberry jam (for all the canning i can do with them!)
I'm attempting pie pumpkins growing up trellises and supported by old hosiery! :)
Everything! The most exciting is the tomatoes I've started from seed. I've never been successful starting my own transplants, but this year it looks like it might be a go.
This book looks awesome. Even if I don't win, it's definitely near the top of my wish list.
krisnusskern at gmail dot com
Hmm...it appears that I will be growing weeds at the rate I'm going...not good. I hope my tomatoes are a success, but this is my first year gardening, so we'll see. I'm thinking that book would be a godsend.
Herbs- especially cilantro since we go through so much of it. The book looks amazing!
[email protected]
I can't wait for my heirloom alpine strawberries to ripen! I grew them from seed last spring and that was no easy feat! Hopefully they will make a nice little batch of homemade strawberry lemonbalm jam, sweetened with backyard honey.
[email protected]
I'm looking forward to tomatoes! I'm growing 6 different varieties so I'm hoping for a good growing season!!
Three varieties of tomatoes.
Tomatoes, always tomatoes. There can never be enough and in Seattle we usually don't even get close to enough for me!
I would love to win this book. I have the basics in my garden and I also planted one watermelon plant.
[email protected]
Tomatoes and cucumbers are first on our list to grow and then herbs such as rosemary or basil.
I've started a nice little garden this year. It includes greens, peas, beans, potatoes, and tomatoes. Everything is starting to grow and I can't wait till I can eat them!
skylarknme @ gmail.com
Tomatoes!! Lots and Lots of tomatoes.
I'm excited to grow watermelon! I remember growing them as a child (well, my parents grew them) and I loved it!
i'm looking forward to a few different heirloom tomatoes- i scored a bunch of heirloom uglies last summer at the farmer's market and made the. best. sauce. ever. so this summer i hope to recreate it with my own tomatoes :)
I'm looking forward to fresh beets, fennel, and of course tomatoes from our garden. Also, It's about time to bring in some rhubarb. It's calling to me.
I'm super excited about the 50 strawberry plants a friend gifted to me when she thinned her patch! I can't wait to sit in the garden feasting on sun-warm berries.
(I'm not sure if my email address comes up with my comment or not, I always leave it in the space on the form, but... sarah dot brassard at gmail dot com)
This looks like an amazing book. I am so looking forward to homegrown tomatoes and corn straight off the stalk. Mmmm...
[email protected]
I'm looking forward to growing potatoes (already in the ground) and sweet potatoes.
I'm looking forward to growing paprika peppers and west Indian gherkins! I can't wait to taste the homegrown paprikas though.
Sarah
sarahmelisse (at) gmail (dot) com
I am trying out some artichokes this year, probably won't get much with this short season, but they will be beautiful!
all tomatoes, all the time. :)
allison (dot) bjorndahl (at) gmail (dot) com
I could really use a book like this! Last year I just planted some things I eat a lot, like tomatoes and bell peppers, but we have bad soil and little sun and eventually the cold winter got the best of them. This year I'm looking forward to lettuce and arugula, they should do better and tasty nonetheless!
More sweet potatoes this year. What a no-brainer, what a delicious harvest. Best wishes!
ddu
[email protected]
We're just starting our first raised bed and we're so excited! First summer in our first-owned house too. Contact me: [email protected]
I am really looking forward to growing tomatoes again this year! Canning is my thing.
Lana Schaub in MI
[email protected]
This year we are growing strawberries in our new raised bed! We love strawberries. My real babies are the heirloom tomatoes that I have grown from seed obtained through Sow True Seed, Cherokee Purple, Brandywine and Amish paste. I am so excited. I have babied these plants for months now and can't wait to taste the fruit!! [email protected]
I cannot wait for my tomatoes to come out. We planted 12 in our urban garden. I love fresh tomato juice!
First garden ever and looking forward to it all, but mostly green peppers!
Michelle
[email protected]
Thanks! The book looks great! This year I planted strawberries for the first time! Can't wait! [email protected]
I know it sounds so mundane but I am fallen totally in love with all things tomatoes. I also added a blueberry bush and peppermint to my garden. And yes I did confine my peppermint to a container.
Home Sweet Homegrown seems like the garedning version of Make YOur Place by Raleigh Briggs which is a favorite of mine.
In previous post I did what you asked us nt to and that was to leave out my contact information.So here goes, [email protected]
I'm growing peas this year. I'm looking forward to the pea shoots almost as much as the peas themselves!
Right now I'm most excited for my peas. Probably cause that's what I'll be munching on first! My tastes evolve over the summer according to my garden.
Looking forward to lots of strange heirloom varieties of toms and peppers - for salsa! [email protected]
This is the first year I'm growing tomatoes and tomatillos from seed (I've always just bought the transplants at the local nursery). I'm especially excited about growing my own San Marzano paste tomatoes!
heavenkeele(at)msn(dot)com
This year is my first 'real' veggie garden so I am excited about everything! Just hoping my seedlings will take!!
Basil! Now if I can just keep the rabbits away... leannafford at gmail.com
After just moving to this new place in August, I have been busy trying to craft a garden from a lawn so that we can have some harvest this summer and fall -- I already have enjoyed lettuce, chard and kale -- but I am most excited about growing potatoes for the first time ever! Now if I can just keep the beetles away! :o)
I am looking forward to my Cherry Roma and Everglades tomatoes - some of the few that do well in our summer.
(sauercoleman at gmail)
SUNFLOWERS! We have a huge vegetable garden, and there are always some sunflowers in there. But this year, I am claiming my own little sunflower patch outside of the garden. Can't wait.
kopetan at frontiernet.net
I'm just looking to have a successful year with enough tomatoes to can, a few more than the two or three small peppers I usually get, and maybe some cukes and zucchini (which most people get a-plenty, but I seem to have a hard time with). I love getting home from work, walking out to the garden and seeing what's for dinner that night.
What a great giveaway!
hhenna73 at yahoo.com
your giveaways are so special! my garden will be filled with herbs this summer. . .i do love your blog ashley. . .
I am looking forward to growing patty pan squash for the first time - started seeds a while back and they are doing good so far!
(tammy.bowers1 at gmail)
I cannot wait to plant my lettuce! (and tomatoes, peas, peppers & strawberries!)
Thank you for the chance!
raftfooATyahooDOTcom
I tried not to have a garden this year. I tried and I failed. We are moving a year from now and I just want to concentrate on getting ready for that and not spend endless hours in the garden. I just couldn't do it. My front yard has somehow sprouted pots and more pots and earthboxes and repurposed shipping crates and even, gulp, the dogs' swimming pool (So! They ate my potato pot!)full of growing green things. I am most looking forward to seeing how potatoes grow in a kiddie (doggie) pool.
I am looking forward to harvesting my very own garlic! So abnormally proud of myself :)
stasigh at gmail
I'm looking forward to the six different kinds of basil I planted, and the opportunity to have my own house soon, with my own yard. My husband and I have big plans for it. :) thanks!
Count me in please!
-Britt T.
brtucker89(at)gmail(dot)com
How tricky. I love all of my garden! I guess I'm most excited about the green beans. I planted 3 varieties this year. Plus some soup beans.
looking forward to tomatoes, carrots, cukes, & beets!
I'd always like a bother gardening book! Of course, I'm most excited about the tomatoes!
A mass of green and violet Zinnias beside my porch. If I could ever get the green Zinnia seeds I ordered. Those and a mini herb garden with rosemary, chives, cilantro and basil.
[email protected]
A mass of green and violet Zinnias beside my porch. If I could ever get the green Zinnia seeds I ordered. Those and a mini herb garden with rosemary, chives, cilantro and basil.
[email protected]
I'd love a copy too :)
i'm looking forward to growing heirloom tomatoes. i have about 11 different variety planted. i also planted purple carrots, purple cauliflower, purple kale and purple asparagus this year...so i'm excited to see how purple they actually are! enchantedtree(at)hotmail.com
I would love to win this book and give it to my daughter whose birthday was this week. She is now happily ensconced in West Asheville and laying the groundwork for her very first all-her-own garden. She also begins her very first full-time job on Monday, AND her horse arrives that day as well all the way from his current home in southern Maryland. Now I KNOW I'll never get her to move home...:-}
I'll be growing potatoes and butternut squash. I can't wait to get my hands dirty!!
[email protected]
I'm trying out sweet potatoes this year!
ekdwilson at gmail
Beets! I love their pretty magenta coloring in salads and I recently came across a recipe for beet cake to try out this year.
marissa.jmsn at gmail
I'm so looking forward to strawberries--they're just budding here.
Also radishes, which are a more imminent excitement. They're so pretty, and I finally found some exciting recipes that use them this year.
I am growing herbs for tea, along with beans and okra for pickling. Very excited about the tea!
Corley(dot)a(dot)tullos(at)gmail(dot)com
Tomatoes--declicious to begin with but absolutely fantastic when picked from your own garden, sliced with mozzarella and basil... :)
[email protected]
Wow! I would love to add this to my reading list! Thanks for the opportunity!
Mel
Basil, Can't wait to plant basil. It just snowed for 1 minute here in Alaska.
I've just moved into an apartment with space for window boxes. Mint, parsley and basil are at the top of my list.
[email protected]
I am looking forward to growing tomatoes and chilies! :D and some beans! I love to see how the grow tall and beautiful while fixing nitrogen in the soil for other plants to enjoy. I am so happy summer is coming!
I'm looking forward to my purple tomatillos! The seedlings look healthy and they will go in the ground this week. I haven't grown this variety before but I just love the way tomatillos grow on a vine with the little delicate paper husk. It is beautiful!
For three first tinge ever, I have chars and spinach in my garden, but I'm looking forward to my heirloom tomatoes and zucchini the most! One day I want to try ground cherries!
Always basil. Love it and can't get enough! nasturtium(at)fastmail.fm
Tomatos are always my favorite...this year I am excited for the heirloom black cherry plant :)
[email protected]
Tomatoes! Always, always tomatoes.
oh my goodness - after reading the comments, i may need to try my hand at watermelons! i hadn't even thought about it and my kids eat them like mad. it is our first year attempting to grow anything at all, so i am starting with herbs in containers. LOTS of basil - my favorite.
([email protected])
Strawberries! They grow so well in this part of Canada.
Any kind of bean! I love beans! You know what they say about beans.....good for your heart!
~MaryDeluxe
Marydeluxe53 @ gmail dot com
My one and only Selke heirloom tomato plant. We are preparing to move and so I couldn't get a garden going this year, but I couldn't resist growing one thing! So a Selke it is (sweet, juicy, fat-ish cherry tomatoes). It's in a big pot, ready to get hauled when we go.
--Mackenzie Rivers
[email protected]
Thank you!! pumpkins! our own neighborhood pumpkin patch
~erica m
[email protected]
I am moving into an apartment where I can plant a garden, so this book would be great!
[email protected]
Trying my hand at lettuces this year- should be an adventure!
Such a cute book! We have our first garden, raised beds and our first small flock of backyard chicks! Loving both in our meager little urban lot.
Oh, that book looks amazing!! I am looking forward to growing cucumbers.. I want to pickle them this year! I always put extra cukes in a basket on the front walk for all the neighbors and passer by in Historic Harpers Feryy to partake. It is awesome to give to others that can't grow veges!
[email protected] |
This page contains a list of user images about Reddit which are relevant to the point and besides images, you can also use the tabs in the bottom to browse Reddit news, videos, wiki information, tweets, documents and weblinks.
Reddit:-...
Reddit /ˈrɛdɪt/,[3] stylized. Reddit is based in San Francisco, California.
Reddit was.
Overview
The site is a collection of entries submitted by its registered users, essentially a bulletin board system. The entries are organized into areas of interest called "reddits". Historically, the front page was the main reddit, and other areas were "subreddits". There is now no main reddit, but the term subreddit persists as an informal name for an area of interest.
Registered users, especially those that post new entries, or post comments to entries, are called "redditors", a portmanteau of "reddit editor". Reddit itself is a portmanteau of "read/edit" and of "read it", i.e., "I read it on Reddit".
As submissions post to the site, redditors can vote for or against them (upvote/downvote). Each reddit has a front page that shows newer submissions that have been rated highly. Redditors can also post comments about the submission, and respond back and forth in a conversation tree of comments; the comments themselves can also be upvoted and downvoted.
The home page of Reddit displays front page content from selected reddits. reddits, is determined by the age of the submission, positive ("upvoted") to negative ("downvoted") feedback ratio and the total vote count.[4] Dozens of submissions cycle through these front pages daily.
As of June 2012[update], commentary on the site is particularly active, often running into the hundreds on some submissions. Popular comments have generated many 'memes' within the Reddit community.[citation needed]
Reddits
Any registered user may create a reddit, although a link to do so does not appear on the user's homepage until after thirty days.[5] There are over 67,000 subreddits to peruse, with the default set being (as of October 18, 2011)[6]
Users may customize what is shown on their personal front page by subscribing to individual reddits through a page that shows all reddits available. The site's general front page is also accessible via a link to "all" at the top of the individual user's customised front page.
Reddit meetups
The Reddit community has been known to socialise at local parks and bars around the world,[7] and there are many localised reddits for local meetings.
Reddit IAmA President Barack Obama (while campaigning for the 2012 election), Chris Hadfield (who answered questions from the International Space Station), Bill Gates, Jimmy Kimmel, Ron Paul, Stephen Colbert, Bear Grylls, Deadmau5, Zach Braff, Neil Strauss, and Tim Ferriss.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19] Barack Obama's AMA is the highest rated on the site, as of February 2013[update].[20] On August 29, 2012, when the AMA occurred, the increased traffic brought down many parts of the website.[21]
Celebrities participating in IAmAs have found the experience a mixed bag, usually depending on how well they understand Reddit and its ethos. Woody Harrelson[22] had a bad experience when he tried to run an IAmA primarily to promote a new movie; the audience wanted to explore other things with him, which caused conflict. In contrast, shortly thereafter, Molly Ringwald[23] ran an IAmA that was received warmly; she explained that she had been lurking for a while, understood more about the community, and proceeded without an agenda. Harrelson's experience became a meme in other IAmAs, with Ringwald's shown as a contrast.
History
Reddit was founded in June 2005[24] by Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian in Medford MA, both 22-year-old graduates of the University of Virginia.[25], Not A Bug.[26][27] Condé Nast Publications, owner of Wired, acquired Reddit on October 31, 2006, and the team moved to San Francisco.[28] In January 2007, Swartz was fired.[29]
Open source
On June 18, 2008, Reddit became an open source project.[30] With the exception of the anti-spam/cheating portions, all of the code and libraries written for Reddit became freely available on Github.[31]
Growth
By the end of 2008, the team had grown to include Erik Martin, Jeremy Edberg,[32] David King,[33] and Mike Schiraldi.[34] In 2009, Huffman and Ohanian moved on to form Hipmunk, recruiting Slowe[35] and King[36] shortly thereafter.
Reddit Gold
In July 2010, after explosive traffic growth, Reddit introduced Reddit Gold, offering new features for a price of US$3.99/month or US$29.99/year.[37] The revenue and attention got them approval to buy more servers and employ more people.[citation needed]
On February 14, 2013, Reddit began accepting the digital currency bitcoin for its Reddit Gold subscription service through a partnership with bitcoin payment processor Coinbase.[38]
Independence
On September 6, 2011, Reddit became operationally independent of Condé Nast, now operating as a separate subsidiary of its parent company, Advance Publications.[39]
Blackout
On January 11, 2012, Reddit announced that it would be participating in a 12-hour sitewide blackout in protest of the Stop Online Piracy Act.[40] The blackout occurred on January 18 and coincided with the blackouts of Wikipedia and several other Internet properties. In May 2012, Reddit joined the Internet Defense League, a group formed to organise future protests.[41]
Demographics
According to Google DoubleClick Ad Planner's estimate, the median U.S. Reddit user is male (72%), 25–34 years of age, and has a college education. The analysis also shows that many of the top ten audience interests are in the tech field, suggesting a computer savvy demographic.[42]
"Restoring Truthiness" campaign.[43] The movement was started by user mrsammercer, in a post where he describes waking up from a dream in which Stephen Colbert holds a satirical rally in D.C.[44]
He writes, "This would be the high water mark of American satire. Half a million people pretending to suspend all rational thought in unison. Perfect harmony. It'll feel like San Francisco in the late 60s, only we won't be able to get any acid."
The idea resonated with the Reddit community, which launched a campaign to bring the event to life. Over $600,000[45] was raised for charity to gain the attention of Colbert. The campaign was mentioned on-air several times, and when the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear was held in Washington, D.C. on October 30, 2010, thousands of redditors made the journey.[46]
During a post-rally press conference, Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian asked, "What role did the Internet campaign play in convincing you to hold this rally?" Jon Stewart responded by saying that, though it was a very nice gesture, the two had already thought of the idea prior and the deposit on using the National Mall was already paid during the summer, so it acted mostly as a "validation of what we were thinking about attempting".[47] In a message to the Reddit community, Colbert later added, "I have no doubt that your efforts to organize and the joy you clearly brought to your part of the story contributed greatly to the turnout and success."[48]
Technology
Reddit was originally written in Common Lisp but was rewritten in Python in December 2005.[49] The reasons given for the switch were wider access to code libraries and greater development flexibility. The Python web framework that former Reddit employee Aaron Swartz developed to run the site, web.py, is now available as an open-source project.[50]
Reddit currently uses Pylons as its web framework.[51] As of November 2009[update], Reddit has decommissioned their physical servers and migrated to Amazon Web Services.[52]
Reddit uses PostgreSQL as primary datastore and slowly moving to Apache Cassandra, a column oriented datastore. It uses RabbitMQ for offline processing, HAProxy for load balancing and memcached for caching.
In early 2009, Reddit started using jQuery.[53]
Mobile web
On June 7, 2010, Reddit staff launched a revamped mobile interface featuring rewritten CSS, a new color scheme, and a multitude of improvements.[54]
Client interface applications
There are several unofficial applications that use the Reddit API on the Android Market, including Reddit is Fun,[55] Andreddit,[56] F5, BaconReader,[57] and an Android tablet specific application called Reddita.[58] For Apple's iOS, there is an official Reddit app called iReddit[59] as well as a number of unofficial third party client apps. For Windows 8, there is an unofficial Reddit app called Reddit on ReddHub.[60]
Search
On July 21, 2010, Reddit outsourced the Reddit search engine to Flaptor, who used its search product IndexTank.[61] Reddit currently uses Amazon CloudSearch.[62]
Community and culture.[63]
Its popularity has enabled users to take unprecedented advantage of such a large community.. Almost all of the user reviews on Alexa.com, which rates Reddit's monthly unique traffic rating 125th in the United States, mention Reddit's "good content" as a likable quality. However, others raise the negative aspects of the potential for Reddit's communities to possess a "hive mind" of sorts,[64] embodying some negative aspects of group interaction theories like crowd psychology and collective consciousness.
In recent history, Reddit has been known as the instigator of several large-scale projects, some short and others long-term, in order to benefit others. A selection of major events are outlined below:
- In early December 2010, members of the Christianity subreddit decided to hold a fundraiser[65] and later members of the atheism subreddit decided to give some friendly competition,[66] cross-promoting[67] fundraising drives for Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) and World Vision's Clean Water Fund, respectively. Later, the Islam subreddit joined in, raising money for Islamic Relief. In less than a week, the three communities (as well as the Reddit community at large) raised over $200,000. Most of this was raised by the atheism subreddit,[68] though the Christianity subreddit had a higher donation amount per subscriber.
- In early October 2010, a story was posted on Reddit about a seven-year-old girl, Kathleen Edward, who was in the advanced stages of Huntington's disease. The girl's neighbors were taunting her and her family. Redditors banded together and gave the girl a shopping spree[69][70] at Tree Town Toys, a toy store local to the story owned by a Reddit user.
- Reddit started the largest Secret Santa program in the world, which is still in operation to date. For the 2010 Holiday season, 92 countries were involved in the Secret Santa program. There were 17,543 participants, and $662,907.60 was collectively spent on gift purchases and shipping costs.[71][72][73]
-.[74]
- Reddit users donated $185,356.70 to Direct Relief International for Haiti after the earthquake devastated the island in January 2010.[75]
- Reddit users donated over $70,000 to the Faraja Orphanage in the first 24 hours to help secure the orphanage after intruders robbed and attacked one of the volunteers, Omari, who survived a strike to the head from a machete.[76]
Controversies involving Reddit
The website has a strong culture of free speech and very few rules about the types of content that may be posted.[77] This has led to the creation of several communities that have been perceived as offensive, including forums dedicated to jailbait (since banned) and pictures of dead bodies; several such subreddits were the focus of an edition of Anderson Cooper 360 in September 2011.[78] However, "Suggestive or sexual content featuring minors" was not explicitly banned until February 2012, after members of the forum Something Awful planned to send correspondence to "Parent Teacher Associations, politicians, churches, news outlets and the FBI" about such subreddits.[79]
In October 2012, a Gawker article published the real-life identity of "Violentacrez", a Reddit moderator prominently involved with a string of controversial subreddits devoted to explicit material.[80][81] As a result of the story, the user, revealed to be a middle-aged computer programmer from Texas, was fired from his job.[81] In response to the exposé, a number of Reddit moderators banned Gawker links from their subreddits.[80]
Following the 2013 Boston Marathon bombings, Reddit faced criticism after users wrongly identified a number of people as suspects.[82] Reddit general manager Erik Martin later issued an apology for this behavior, criticizing the "online witch hunts and dangerous speculation" that took place on the website.[83]
Awards
In May 2010, Reddit was named in Lead411's "2010 Hottest San Francisco Companies" list.[84]
See also
References
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- ^ "Reddit.com Site Info". Alexa Internet. Retrieved 2013-05-07.
- ^ "Frequently Asked Questions: What does the name "reddit" mean?". reddit. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "reddit algorithm". seomoz.
- ^ "Re: Can I make my own subreddit?". 28 May 2011.
- ^ Martin, Erik (18 October 2011). "Saying goodbye to an old friend and revising the default subreddits". Retrieved 8 February 2013.
- ^ "Reddit Worldwide Meetups". Reddit.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Barack Obama AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "President Obama makes online appearance on Reddit". The Telegraph. 2012-08-29. Retrieved 2012-08-30.
- ^ "Bill Gates AMA". Reddit.
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- ^ "Jimmy Kimmel AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "Congressman Ron Paul Answers Your Questions". Reddit Blog. Retrieved 11 May 2012.
- ^ "Stephen Colbert AMA". Reddit. Retrieved 11 May 2012.
- ^ "Bear Grylls AMA". Reddit. Retrieved 11 May 2012.
- ^ "Deadmau5 AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "Zach Braff AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "Neil Strauss AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "Tim Ferriss answers your questions". Reddit. Retrieved 11 May 2012.
- ^ "top scoring links : IAmA". reddit. Retrieved 2013-02-26.
- ^ Alabaster, Jay (29 August 2012). "Obama makes appearance on Reddit, briefly crashes site". IDG News Service. Retrieved 30 August 2012.
- ^ "I'm Woody Harrelson, AMA". Reddit.
- ^ "I am Molly Ringwald. AMA". Reddit.
- ^ Macale, Sherilynn "Cheri". "A rundown of Reddit’s history and community [Infographic]". The Next Web Social Media. Retrieved 12 November 2011.
- ^ Adams, Richard (2005-12-08). "reddit.com". London: The Guardian. Retrieved 2006-12-23.
- ^ Singel, Ryan (July 19, 2011). "Feds Charge Activist as Hacker for Downloading Millions of Academic Articles". Wired. Retrieved January 12, 2013.
- ^ Swartz, Aaron (February 27, 2006). "Introducing Infogami". Infogami. Retrieved 2007-01-06. (archive.org link)
- ^ Arrington, Michael (October 31, 2006). "Breaking news: Condé Nast/Wired Acquires reddit". TechCrunch. Retrieved 2007-01-06.
- ^ "A Chat with Aaron Swartz". Blogoscoped.com. May 7, 2007. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ steve [spez] (June 17, 2008). "reddit goes open source". Blog.reddit.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Reddit Github". Retrieved 2011-06-05.
- ^.
- ^ Posted by mike [raldi] (2010-07-19). "what's new on reddit: Three new features for reddit gold: Choose-your-own ads, Userpage sorting, and Friends with Benefits". blog.reddit. Retrieved 2010-07-29. "It's time for reddit gold to make the shift from a one-week experiment to a true service with a clear pricing structure and at least a few whistles and bells."
- ^ Olanoff, Drew. "Reddit Starts Accepting Bitcoin for Reddit Gold Purchases Thanks To Partnership With Coinbase". Techcrunch. Retrieved 14 February 2013.
- ^ "blog.reddit – what's new online: Independence". Retrieved 2011-09-06.
- ^ "Reddit Plans SOPA 'Blackout' Protest Jan. 18"
- ^ The Internet Defense League – Protecting the Free Internet since 2012
- ^ "DoubleClick Ad Planner by Google – reddit.com". Google. Retrieved March 3, 2012.
- ^ Friedman, Megan (September 14, 2010). "Reddit Campaign for Colbert Rally Breaks Donation Record". Time NewsFeed. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ mrsammercer (August 31, 2010). "I've had a vision and I can't shake it: Colbert needs to hold a satirical rally in DC". Reddit.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Restoring Truthiness donor page". Donorschoose.org. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ Schiraldi, Mike (November 12, 2010). "Buy Shirts, Remember the Rally, Question Colbert, and Smile". blog.reddit. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ Rally to Restore Sanity – Press Conference – Video Mediaite. October 30, 2010.
- ^ "Stephen Colbert has answered your questions : IAmA". Reddit.com. November 30, 2010. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ steve [spez] (2005-12-05). ""On lisp" blog post by Reddit founder "spez", detailing the reasons for switching to python from lisp". Blog.reddit.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Official web.py site". Webpy.org. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ Sites Using Pylons – Pylons Community – PythonWeb
- ^ jeremy [jedberg] (November 10, 2009). "Moving to the cloud". Blog.reddit.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ what's new on reddit: reddit now powered by jQuery – Posted by Chris Slowe (keysersosa) (Friday, January 30, 2009) – blog.reddit
- ^ "A better mobile reddit for all". reddit.com. 2010-06-09. Retrieved 2010-07-29.
- ^ "reddit is fun – Android Application on the Android market". Appbrain.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Download andreddit for your Android phone on AppBrain". Appbrain.com. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "a tasty new reddit app". baconreader. Retrieved 2011-07-06.
- ^ "Reddita – Android Market". Market.android.com. 2011-11-15. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "iTunes App Store iReddit". reddit.com. Retrieved December 7, 2011.
- ^ "Windows Store - Reddit on ReddHub". Reddit Anonymous. Retrieved March 24, 2013.
- ^ "Reddit Blog post announcing the use of IndexTank search engine".
- ^
- ^ "Could Reddit be the world's most influential website?". BlueGlass. Retrieved April 26, 2012.
- ^ "Reddit.com Site Info". Alexa.com. Retrieved April 26, 2012.
- ^ .com. 2010-12-10. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "reddit.com/r/Atheism's Fundraising Page". Retrieved May 7, 2012.
- ^ "Toy Store Shopping Spree for Kathleen Edward". Myfoxdetroit.com. 2010-10-12. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ Stryker, Cole (2010-12-10). Kathleen Edward, Harassed Girl with Huntington's Diseas, Thanks Reddit. Urlesque. Retrieved April 20, 2011.
- ^ Boitnott, John (December 23, 2010). "Secret Santa success caps banner year for Reddit". VentureBeat Interpreting Innovation. VentureBeat. Retrieved January 3, 2011.
- ^ "The Biggest Secret Santa Gift Exchange in the World". Retrieved 2011-02-12.
- ^ "Statistics for Secret Santa 2010". Retrieved 2011-02-12.
- ^ "Restoring Truthiness Giving Page". Donorschoose.org. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "Direct Relief International: Support Us – Tributes:". Dri.convio.net. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
- ^ "How Reddit Saved an Orphanage". Reddit.com. January 27, 2012. Retrieved January 27, 2012.
- ^ "rules of reddit". Retrieved 14 Oct 2012.
- ^ Anderson Cooper 360, 9/29/2011.
- ^ Reddit Bans ‘Sexual Content Featuring Minors’ | TPM Idea Lab
- ^ a b "Why Reddit Politics ban on Gawker will stay, by a moderator". Guardian. 16 October 2012.
- ^ a b Holpuch, Amanda (16 October 2012). "Reddit user Violentacrez fired from job after Gawker exposé". Guardian.
- ^ "Innocents accused in online manhunt". 3 News NZ. April 22, 2013.
- ^ Martin, Erik. "Reflections on the Recent Boston Crisis". Reddit.com. Retrieved 5/3/13.
- ^ "Lead411 launches "Hottest Companies in San Francisco" awards". Lead411.com. 2010-05-18. Retrieved December 4, 2011.
External links
- Reddit's official blog
- Reddit's source code (hosted by GitHub)
- Alien Logo Archive
- The Culture of Reddit Documentary produced by Off Book (Web series)
|
Mindstorms Not Just a Kid's Toy
Grownups are gleefully turning smart Lego bricks into autonomous gadgets
Photo: Lego
A Mindstorms robot's brain: a programmable Lego brick.
Robotic.
TOP LEFT & BOTTOM RIGHT: ANDREW EVANS; TOP RIGHT & BOTTOM LEFT: MARIO & GIULIO FERRARI
From these relatively simple parts, hobbyists have managed to build a mind-boggling array of widgets. The list includes robotic trash trucks that pick up and deposit miniature dumpsters, rolling and walking robots, a light-bulb changer, and maze-following robots [see pictures]. Hundreds of Web pages put up by fans around the globe supply the details for building these creations.
That Mindstorms is such a hit with adults does not strike Fred Martin as strange. Said the former MIT researcher, who played a pivotal role in the programmable brick development, "It's the toy I would have wanted to have" when he was younger, and he still wants it today. The goal of MIT's research, Martin said, was to create "materials that make ideas accessible," and the programmable brick does exactly that for robotics and for computer programming. People who use Mindstorms learn by building something tangible.
Above all, Mindstorms makes ideas about robotics accessible to people without sophisticated mechanical-engineering skills or access to a machine shop. "Lego has changed from a childhood toy to a viable mechanical prototyping system," said hobbyist John Barnes, who lives in upstate New York. With Mindstorms, anyone can build computer-controlled mechanisms by simply snapping parts together.
Where an earlier generation of hobbyists struggled to build parts to the submillimeter tolerances required for a working robot arm, "Lego parts are made to exact lengths," with an accuracy measured in tens of micrometers, noted widget-builder J.P. Brown of Chicago.
A hacker's dream
Pleased as many would-be roboticists were with the idea of Mindstorms, they were often less than satisfied with the reality. Among their complaints is Lego's simplistic programming language. It allows a mere 16 variables for holding sensor values or other data, and gives only coarse control over motor speeds. Its subroutines for handling repetitive tasks such as navigating around obstacles are quite limited. Multitasking is slow, as is response to sensor inputs.
Unlike youngsters, who might well toss a disappointing new toy back in the closet, some adults had the tools and training to bring Mindstorms more in line with their desires. Besides, they had the hacker ethos: if it doesn't work, fix it; if it does work, take it apart.
Kekoa Proudfoot, a graduate student at Stanford University in California, was the first to pry off the cover of his RCX and tell the world what was inside. He quickly decoded what commands its built-in firmware could carry out. David Baum, in real life a software engineer at Motorola Inc., cracked the communications protocol for the IR link. Mindstormers exchanged information through mailing lists hosted by hobbyist Russell Nelson, and through LUGnet, Lego Users Group Network, which had already been in operation for some years.
Development during those early days was fast and heady, recalls Markus Noga, now a doctoral candidate in computer science at the University of Karlsruhe, in Germany. In one rapid exchange, he and David Baum posted versions of a new program download protocol on the Internet every few hours, culminating two days later in a version that was four times the speed of the original.
Baum also quickly devised a new programming system to develop RCX code in a dialect of the C language he called Not Quite C (NQC). Instead of programming by manipulating graphical blocks within Lego's PC software, Mindstorms' hackers using NQC could write code with a conventional text editor in a familiar language. Baum's compiler then produced byte-codes that could be downloaded and interpreted by the RCX firmware. Besides making it easier to write and exchange code, NQC offered somewhat better control over the RCX hardware than did Lego's simple programming blocks.
Meanwhile, Ph.D. student Noga decided to ditch Lego's firmware and write his own. He devised a set of more efficient routines for controlling the brick's behavior, which he called LegOS. It can be used to write C programs that can be compiled to H8 machine code and downloaded for direct execution by the CPU, potentially running hundreds of times faster than the interpreted byte-codes.
In another application, Ralph Hempel, an embedded-systems engineer in Owen Sound, Ont., ported a variant of the Forth language to the RCX. He called it pbForth. Unusually for a Mindstorms programming system, pbForth does not create a program on a PC and download it to the RCX. Instead, the PC is treated as a simple terminal connected to the Forth development system running on the Hitachi H8 CPU inside the RCX brick. The system takes less than 10 kB of memory, leaving plenty of room for user programs. Hempel gave two reasons for writing the system: Forth is well suited for programming CPUs that communicate directly with the real world, and other fun projects (like reverse-engineering the brick or writing LegOS) were already taken.
Misjudging the market
Pent-up demand from would-be robot hackers transformed a toy originally designed for the 12-year-old-and-up home and educational market into one with more adult than adolescent buyers. Lego was not entirely surprised by the prevalence of Adult Fans of Lego (or AFOLs, as they're known within and without the company) or by its voracious appetite for the $200 toy, said Russell Stoll, creative director of Lego's community Web site. Still, the depth and breadth of the fans' continuing interest has been remarkable.
In response, the company is offering extra documentation, such as the details of firmware inner workings in its robotics Software Development Kit (SDK) and a Web site on which AFOLs can exchange information or post pictures and text describing their inventions.
Some Mindstorms hackers were unprepared for this corporate support, which included Lego's sponsorship of the first Mindfest conference, a gathering of academics and hobbyists at MIT in October 1999 to celebrate the product's first anniversary. As David Baum told IEEE Spectrum, for the first few months after he released NQC, he half-expected to find a letter from Lego's lawyers in his mailbox, telling him to cease and desist from meddling in the company's intellectual property. Instead, he ended up meeting Lego designers and forging friendships with some of them.
That might not have been the case earlier. Lego has a history of aggressively defending its designs and trademarks, particularly when other companies have produced plastic bricks that interlock with Lego's own. At the Mindfest conference, said Noga, one Lego official commented that even a few years earlier, the company might have considered legal action against the hackers, instead of responding with open arms and a Web site.
Besides encouraging adult inventiveness, Lego has also responded with new releases that it hopes will be easier for children to use, said Lego public relations manager Michael McNally. As was pointed out by hobbyist and engineer Michael Gasperi in Milwaukee, children often find the current product difficult. He recalls buying the Mindstorms kit in hopes of helping his eight-year-old daughter understand what he did at work every day. The two worked through the initial tutorials together, but by the time their first robotic creation was ready to be debugged, said Gasperi, "I was alone."
The newest RCX programming system, according to McNally, contains more sophisticated functions: for example, a single command will move an RCX-powered vehicle forward or back, right or left, rather than requiring a user to send individual forward or reverse commands to the RCX motor outputs. The company also has released two series of similar but simpler products, the Cybermaster and Scout, which offer built-in motors, less flexible programming, and hence perhaps a less bewildering array of choices. The idea, said McNally, is to provide a compelling "out-of-box" experience for both sides of Lego's diverse market.
These new products do not water down the original Lego design, according to Lego's Web site director Stoll. He pointed out that the next release of the RCX programming environment, RIS 2.0, also includes a text-based scripting language, so that users can type programs without first downloading onto their PC an entirely different set of programs (such as NQC or LegOS). The company has also released the Vision Commander, a combination of camera and PC software that can send messages to the RCX over its IR link, based on changing events within the camera's field of view.
Meanwhile, the hacker community has been producing new hardware as well. Gasperi, for one, has published on the Web designs for a series of simple homemade sensors for conditions ranging from touch and temperature to relative humidity and skin conductivity. John Barnes, an image-processing programmer in real life, has made a small business of supplying more-complex input devices, all built into hollowed-out Lego bricks so that they will snap together with other Lego parts (and so that Lego's legal department will have less of an incentive to come after him).
One of Barnes's staples is an ultrasonic range finder that plugs into an RCX input port and tells the RCX how far it is from the nearest solid object. At the top end of his line, he has built a prototype camera brick that tracks an object in its field of view and reports x and y coordinates back to the RCX. That unit, he notes, includes a microprocessor and several 50-MHz field-programmable gate arrays with more than 10 times the computational horsepower of the H8. "It can be a bit of the tail wagging the dog," he told Spectrum.
Barnes has also begun work on possible replacements for the RCX. He is using 18 I/O ports instead of three, a 1-Mb/s RF connection to a PC instead of a lowly IR link, and external power connections so that users will not be limited by the life of AA batteries. "Power is a real challenge," he gripes, even as he agrees with others that the RCX designers probably made the best tradeoff available among ports, battery life, and weight. Barnes has also eliminated the LCD, trading it for a PC-based virtual front panel connected to his brick by RF.
While Barnes and his ilk are taking the complexity of Mindstorms to new heights, others are working on simplifying the programmable brick even further. Former MIT researcher Fred Martin has moved to a spin-off company in hopes of commercializing one of his more recent research projects, a gizmo known as Cricket. Martin believes an 8-bit processor with 32KB of RAM is overkill. His Crickets use a less powerful controller with only a few hundred bytes of RAM to do almost the same job at a fraction of the price.
The Cricket design has only two sensor inputs and two motor outputs, but individual Crickets communicate with one another through IR links, so that any number of them could be used in a single system. For example, Martin said, a toy robotic arm might have a Cricket-style controller at each joint and several at the gripper, rather than a single massive CPU trying to control all the motions and drive all the motors.
Building tools or building toys?
Ironically, many builders of the most complex software and hardware additions to Mindstorms have found that answering questions and exchanging information with other AFOLs leaves them with little time to build new Lego creations. Baum, for example, has spent his spare time re-engineering NQC to improve its performance and make it possible to add new features requested by his fellow hackers. Hempel, Gasperi, and Barnes report similar experiences. Barnes, in fact, is trying to find a company to take over his sensor designs, which he currently handcrafts from printed-circuit boards made to order by an Internet-based prototyping service.
But there are plenty of AFOLs out there willing to make use of new Mindstorms tools to build gadgets of ever-greater complexity. Consider Bob Fay, a Southern California technical worker who has spent his career repairing numerical controllers and other aerospace manufacturing equipment. He now builds lathes, milling machines, and solar-powered trucks out of Lego parts. (Fay's milling machine cuts nothing harder than dry toast, but it's a worthy successor to the pen-plotters and printers others have built.) Or there's Mike Onorato on Long Island, N.Y., whose RCX-based vending machine dispenses cans of real soda in exchange for coins or bills, which it stores in a cash box locked with a Lego key. And Japan's Jin Sato has created a pet that displays various eye expressions.
Another inventor is J.P. Brown, whose Rubik's Cube-solver takes two RCX modules and thousands of pieces. Although Brown had last looked at a Lego brick when he was 10 years old, he caught the bug again two years ago after running into a 14-year-old Mindstorms addict at a party in Research Triangle Park, N.C. On his return home to Chicago, he checked out the toy, discovered NQC, and promptly built a robot to solve the Towers of Hanoi problem. In this computer-science chestnut, a series of disks of different sizes must be moved from one "tower" to another (by way of a third "tower") without a larger disk ever being placed atop a smaller one. Then, after building a few walking robots, Brown was in a neighbor's apartment and noticed a disarranged Rubik's Cube. The sight triggered a memory of an article he had once seen in Byte Magazine about solving the cube in 60 moves, and he was off.
The cube-solver illustrates many of the issues that an aspiring builder must solve to create working widgets out of child-grade plastic. For example, when building the robotic grippers that hold the cube in place and turn it to realign its faces, Brown had to trade speed for torque to avoid wrenching his Lego bricks apart. Each turn of the cube's faces takes 30 seconds.
Even with the machine moving that slowly, Brown said, he went through six iterations of the gripper design before he found one that could hold the cube securely. In addition, the robotic arm flexes too much to give accurate readings at the "elbow," so that the sensors that tell when a turn is completed had to be mounted at the "wrist," right next to the gripper.
On the computing side, the RCX is relegated to controlling the grippers. Brown's PC calculates the shortest possible sequence of moves--usually less than 20--using a table of cube permutations that requires several megabytes of memory. (A camera zeroes in on the cube's faces to determine which of the millions of possible disarranged configurations the cube is displaying.) Brown commented that a 60-move solver would probably fit on the RCX, but "at 30 seconds per move, no one is going to watch the thing."
Is the cube-solver of any use? According to Brown, several acquaintances who have heard about his device have brought him their old cubes to be set shipshape.
Similarly whimsical is Denmark-based Søren Rolighed's Party Optimizer. This Mindstorms robot uses the vision module to study an adjacent dance floor and determine whether anyone is moving on it. If not, a subrobot moves across the face of Rolighed's CD player to skip to the next track; continued inactivity leads it to change the CD for another, hopefully easier-to-dance-to selection.
Rolighed, a software engineer and database administrator who, like most Danes, has been playing with Legos almost since birth, has also built an RCX-controlled typewriter [previous page] and an RCX-controlled slot machine. The slot machine, he said, had been on his list to build from conventional Lego parts for many years, but it was only when the RCX came out that he could make it work. The typewriter uses a combination of fixed and moving sensors to figure out which key has been pressed, with a rudimentary pen plotter and paper feed to print out letters in a 5-by-7-dot matrix. (The slot machine is somewhat simpler, because it must merely sense the position of its three wheels when they stop rotating, and then count the coins it pays out accordingly.)
Feeding community spirit
From Lego's point of view, encouraging the Mindstorms community to invent makes good marketing and product development sense. The new RCX firmware benefited from more than a year of thorough examination by beta testers, who put it through paces undreamed of by its designers. And Lego marketing executive McNally points out that the company is releasing a new builder's kit with which customers may recreate at least a couple of the gadgets that Lego's master designers put together for trade shows and marketing tours.
But the individual participants get a great deal back as well: information, recognition, and support. Brown laughs about his "odd, god-like status" among a select group of 15-year-olds, and said it was "a little scary" when the son of a fellow Lego hacker suddenly recognized him as the creator of the legendary cube-solving machine.
When Rolighed found people like Brown, Baum, and Noga on-line, his immediate reaction was relief that he was "not the only not-so-young person still playing with Lego." He quickly became part of the on-line community, impressed with the time that older, more experienced builders spent with their younger compatriots.
Indeed, when there's new information to be exchanged, dozens of articles a day may be posted at Lego's Forums, or at the 1100-member LUGnet site, or in the usenet rec.toys.lego newsgroup. Tens of thousands of users have downloaded the NQC compiler, and even as arcane a programming language as pbForth finds hundreds of new users every month. What's more, user groups meet in cities around the world, from Seattle and Toronto to Tokyo and Sydney.
Some Mindstorms gurus have even found that their work on software and hardware for a like-minded community has changed how they approach their real jobs. NQC taught David Baum that his interests lay more in software research than in product development. "I realized that I like to try new things and see what takes," he told Spectrum. Repeated redesigns of the program's internals have also honed his software-engineering intuitions.
Hempel reports a similar evolution. Writing pbForth and supporting the people who want to use it, he said, has turned him from a design engineer into an educator. Using none other than the RCX, he is training other software engineers in embedded-systems design. (Even as a learning tool, Mindstorms seems to have found a firmer niche in college-level and graduate education than in secondary schools.)
Looking for convergence
Where will Mindstorms go from here? With version 2.0 of the RCX firmware due this fall, the original hardware may have gone as far as its designers can take it, and what directions it should take next are unclear. Lego is mum about its detailed plans. Even so, marketing executive McNally suggests that more RF communications links are in the offing, while Web site director Stoll is already looking forward to Mindstorms 3.0, which he claims will make even the most demanding professional users happy.
LegOS inventor Markus Noga has abandoned the RCX for a career in XML software tools, but hopes that hobbyists will soon see an RCX with an expansion bus of the kind once found in the Acorn BBC Model B or Amiga home computers. That way, he said, third-party developers would have full access to the internal architecture of a programmable brick.
Some Mindstormers, meanwhile, like the RCX just the way it is. The fun part of designing Mindstorms projects, said Baum, is figuring out how to do what you want despite the brick's constraints. Rolighed goes even further, limiting himself strictly to Lego-produced parts and eschewing homebrew sensors or motors. He has always made it "a point of honor," he said, "to use only the facilities available."
As Barnes puts it, there are all levels of observance among adherents of the Lego religion, from the ultra-orthodox to the agnostic. Some of his products even blur the line between computer control and conventional Lego wires and switches: he has built radio-controlled modules that contain tiny microprocessors, and making them programmable would be a simple step. (Lego has announced that it, too, would produce generic radio-controlled bricks.)
Perhaps, as the price of microcontrollers and communications links continues to fall, the boundary between dumb and smart components will blur even further. It would be a strange twist of fate if the "ubiquitous computing" future that computer pundits have predicted for the past 20 years makes its most pervasive initial appearance in the form of intelligent, interlocking toy bricks.
Tekla S. Perry, Editor
About the Author
PAUL WALLICH is a science and technology writer living in Vermont. Someday he hopes to retrieve his Lego collection from a niece and two nephews.
To Probe Further
Lego Co.'s official company site, at, displays construction tips, project galleries, contests, and new product information.
A clearinghouse for all kinds of Lego fans, at. lugnet.com, includes galleries, discussion groups, software, and member Web sites.
Information about the internals of the RCX, along with links to homemade sensors, software and other Mindstorms-related projects, is stored at. |
Spring Integration's JPA (Java Persistence API) module provides components for performing various database operations using JPA. The following components are provided:
Updating Outbound Gateway
Retrieving Outbound Gateway
These components can be used to perform select, create, update and delete operations on the targeted databases by sending/receiving messages to them.
The JPA Inbound Channel Adapter lets you poll and retrieve (select) data from the database using JPA whereas the JPA Outbound Channel Adapter lets you create, update and delete entities.
Outbound Gateways for JPA can be used to persist entities to the database, yet allowing you to continue with the flow and execute further components downstream. Similarly, you can use an Outbound Gateway to retrieve entities from the database.
For example, you may use the Outbound Gateway, which receives a Message with a user Id as payload on its request channel, to query the database and retrieve the User entity and pass it downstream for further processing.
Recognizing these semantic differences, Spring Integration provides 2 separate JPA Outbound Gateways:
Retrieving Outbound Gateway
Updating Outbound Gateway
Functionality
All JPA components perform their respective JPA operations by using either one of the following:
Entity classes
Java Persistence Query Language (JPQL) for update, select and delete (inserts are not supported by JPQL)
Native Query
Named Query
In the following sections we will describe each of these components in more detail.
The Spring Integration JPA support has been tested using the following persistence providers:
Hibernate
OpenJPA
EclipseLink
When using a persistence provider, please ensure that the provider is compatible with JPA 2.0.
Each of the provided components will use the
o.s.i.jpa.core.JpaExecutor
class which in turn will use an implementation of the
o.s.i.jpa.core.JpaOperations
interface.
JpaOperations operates like a
typical Data Access Object (DAO) and provides methods such as
find,
persist,
executeUpdate etc. For most use cases the provided
default implementation
o.s.i.jpa.core.DefaultJpaOperations
should be sufficient. Nevertheless, you have the option to
optionally specify your own implementation in case you require custom
behavior.
For initializing a
JpaExecutor
you have to use one of 3 available constructors that accept one of:
EntityManagerFactory
EntityManager or
JpaOperations
Java Configuration Example
The following example of a JPA Retrieving Outbound Gateway is configured purely through Java. In typical usage scenarios you will most likely prefer the XML Namespace Support described further below. However, the example illustrates how the classes are wired up. Understanding the inner workings can also be very helpful for debugging or customizing the individual JPA components.
First, we instantiate a
JpaExecutor using an
EntityManager as constructor argument.
The
JpaExecutor is then in return used as
constructor argument for the
o.s.i.jpa.outbound.JpaOutboundGateway
and the
JpaOutboundGateway will be passed as constructor
argument into the
EventDrivenConsumer.
<bean id="jpaExecutor" class="o.s.i.jpa.core.JpaExecutor"> <constructor-arg <property name="entityClass" value="o.s.i.jpa.test.entity.StudentDomain"/> <property name="jpaQuery" value="select s from Student s where s.id = :id"/> <property name="expectSingleResult" value="true"/> <property name="jpaParameters" > <util:list> <bean class="org.springframework.integration.jpa.support.JpaParameter"> <property name="name" value="id"/> <property name="expression" value="payload"/> </bean> </util:list> </property> </bean> <bean id="jpaOutboundGateway" class="o.s.i.jpa.outbound.JpaOutboundGateway"> <constructor-arg <property name="gatewayType" value="RETRIEVING"/> <property name="outputChannel" ref="studentReplyChannel"/> </bean> <bean id="getStudentEndpoint" class="org.springframework.integration.endpoint.EventDrivenConsumer"> <constructor-arg <constructor-arg </bean>
When using XML namespace support, the underlying parser classes will instantiate the relevant Java classes for you. Thus, you typically don't have to deal with the inner workings of the JPA adapter. This section will document the XML Namespace Support provided by the Spring Integration and will show you how to use the XML Namespace Support to configure the Jpa components.
Certain configuration parameters are shared amongst all JPA components and are described below:
auto-startup
Lifecycle attribute signaling if this component should
be started during Application Context startup.
Defaults to
true.
Optional.
id
Identifies the underlying Spring bean definition, which
is an instance of either
EventDrivenConsumer
or
PollingConsumer.
Optional.
entity-manager-factory
The reference to the JPA Entity Manager Factory
that will be used by the adapter to create the
EntityManager.
Either this attribute or the entity-manager attribute
or the jpa-operations attribute must be provided.
entity-manager
The reference to the JPA Entity Manager that will be used by the component. Either this attribute or the enity-manager-factory attribute or the jpa-operations attribute must be provided.
<bean id="entityManager" class="org.springframework.orm.jpa.support.SharedEntityManagerBean"> <property name="entityManagerFactory" ref="entityManagerFactoryBean" /> </bean>
jpa-operations
Reference to a bean implementing the
JpaOperations interface. In rare cases
it might be advisable to provide your own implementation
of the
JpaOperations interface, instead
of relying on the default implementation
org.springframework.integration.jpa.core.DefaultJpaOperations.
As
JpaOperations wraps the necessary
datasource; the JPA Entity Manager or JPA Entity Manager Factory
must not be provided, if the jpa-operations
attribute is used.
entity-class
The fully qualified name of the entity class. The exact semantics of this attribute vary, depending on whether we are performing a persist/update operation or whether we are retrieving objects from the database.
When retrieving data, you can specify the entity-class attribute to indicate that you would like to retrieve objects of this type from the database. In that case you must not define any of the query attributes ( jpa-query, native-query or named-query )
When persisting data, the entity-class attribute will indicate the type of object to persist. If not specified (for persist operations) the entity class will be automatically retrieved from the Message's payload.
jpa-query
Defines the JPA query (Java Persistence Query Language) to be used.
native-query
Defines the native SQL query to be used.
named-query
This attribute refers to a named query. A named query can either be defined in Native SQL or JPAQL but the underlying JPA persistence provider handles that distinction internally.
For providing parameters, the parameter XML sub-element can be used. It provides a mechanism to provide parameters for the queries that are either based on the Java Persistence Query Language (JPQL) or native SQL queries. Parameters can also be provided for Named Queries.
Expression based Parameters
<int-jpa:parameter
Value based Parameters
<int-jpa:parameter
Positional Parameters
<int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter
All JPA operations like Insert, Update and Delete require a transaction to be active whenever they are performed. For Inbound Channel Adapters there is nothing special to be done, it is similar to the way we configure transaction managers with pollers used with other inbound channel adapters.The xml snippet below shows a sample where a transaction manager is configured with the poller used with an Inbound Channel Adapter.
<int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter <int:poller <int:transactional </int:poller> </int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter>
However, it may be necessary to specifically start a transaction when using an Outbound Channel Adapter/Gateway. If a DirectChannel is an input channel for the outbound adapter/gateway, and if transaction is active in the current thread of execution, the JPA operation will be performed in the same transaction context. We can also configure to execute this JPA operation in a new transaction as below.
<int-jpa:outbound-gateway <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:transactional </int-jpa:outbound-gateway>
As we can see above, the transactional sub element of the outbound gateway/adapter will be used to specify the transaction attributes. It is optional to define this child element if you have DirectChannel as an input channel to the adapter and you want the adapter to execute the operations in the same transaction context as the caller. If, however, you are using an ExecutorChannel, it is required to have the transactional sub element as the invoking client's transaction context is not propagated.
An Inbound Channel Adapter is used to execute a select query over the
database using JPA QL and return the result. The message payload will be either a single
entity or a
List of entities. Below is a sample xml snippet that shows
a sample usage of inbound-channel-adapter.
<int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter
<int:poller <int:transactional </int:poller> </int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter><int:poller <int:transactional </int:poller> </int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter>
<int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter <int:poller </int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter>> <int:poller </int-jpa:inbound-channel-adapter>
The JPA Outbound channel adapter allows you to accept messages over a request channel. The payload can either be used as the entity to be persisted, or used along with the headers in parameter expressions for a defined JPQL query to be executed. In the following sub sections we shall see what those possible ways of performing these operations are.
The XML snippet below shows how we can use the Outbound Channel Adapter to persist an entity to the database.
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter
As we can see above these 4 attributes of the outbound-channel-adapter are all we need to configure it to accept entities over the input channel and process them to PERSIST,MERGE or DELETE it from the underlying data source.
We have seen in the above sub section how to perform a PERSIST action using an entity We will now see how to use the outbound channel adapter which uses JPA QL (Java Persistence API Query Language)
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter
<int-jpa:parameter<int-jpa:parameter
<int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter><int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter>
The parameter sub element accepts an attribute name which corresponds to the named parameter specified in the provided JPA QL (point 2 in the above mentioned sample). The value of the parameter can either be static or can be derived using an expression. The static value and the expression to derive the value is specified using the value and the expression attributes respectively. These attributes are mutually exclusive.
If the value attribute is specified we can provide an optional
type attribute. The value of this attribute is the fully qualified name of the class
whose value is represented by the value attribute. By default
the type is assumed to be a
java.lang.String.
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter ... > <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter>
As seen in the above snippet, it is perfectly valid to use multiple parameter sub elements within an outbound channel adapter
tag and derive some parameters using expressions and some with static value. However, care should
be taken not to specify the same parameter name multiple times, and, provide one parameter sub element for
each named parameter specified in the JPA query. For example, we are specifying two parameters
level and name where level attribute is a static value of type
java.lang.Integer, where as the name attribute is derived from the payload of the message
In this section we will see how to use native queries to perform the operations using JPA outbound channel adapter. Using native queries is similar to using JPA QL, except that the query specified here is a native database query. By choosing native queries we lose the database vendor independence which we get using JPA QL.
One of the things we can achieve using native queries is to perform database inserts, which is not possible using JPA QL (To perform inserts we send JPA entities to the channel adapter as we have seen earlier). Below is a small xml fragment that demonstrates the use of native query to insert values in a table. Please note that we have only mentioned the important attributes below. All other attributes like channel, entity-manager and the parameter sub element has the same semantics as when we use JPA QL.
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter
We will now see how to use named queries after seeing using entity, JPA QL and native query in previous sub sections. Using named query is also very similar to using JPA QL or a native query, except that we specify a named query instead of a query. Before we go further and see the xml fragment for the declaration of the outbound-channel-adapter, we will see how named JPA named queries are defined.
In our case, if we have an entity called
Student, then we have the following in the class to define
two named queries selectStudent and updateStudent. Below is a way to define
named queries using annotations
@Entity @Table(name="Student") @NamedQueries({ @NamedQuery(name="selectStudent", query="select s from Student s where s.lastName = 'Last One'"), @NamedQuery(name="updateStudent", query="update Student s set s.lastName = :lastName, lastUpdated = :lastUpdated where s.id in (select max(a.id) from Student a)") }) public class Student { ...
You can alternatively use the orm.xml to define named queries as seen below
<entity-mappings ...> ... <named-query <query>select s from Student s where s.lastName = 'Last One'</query> </named-query> </entity-mappings>
Now that we have seen how we can define named queries using annotations or using orm.xml, we will now see a small xml fragment for defining an outbound-channel-adapter using named query
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter
<int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter <int:poller/> <int-jpa:transactional/>> <int:poller/> <int-jpa:transactional/>
> <int-jpa:parameter/>> <int-jpa:parameter/>
> </int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter>> </int-jpa:outbound-channel-adapter>
The JPA Inbound Channel Adapter allows you to poll a database in order to retrieve one or more JPA entities and the retrieved data is consequently used to start a Spring Integration flow using the retrieved data as message payload.
Additionally, you may use JPA Outbound Channel Adapters at the end of your flow in order to persist data, essentially terminating the flow at the end of the persistence operation.
However, how can you execute JPA persistence operation in the middle of a flow? For example, you may have business data that you are processing in your Spring Integration message flow, that you would like to persist, yet you still need to execute other components further downstream. Or instead of polling the database using a poller, you rather have the need to execute JPQL queries and retrieve data actively which then is used to being processed in subsequent components within your flow.
This is where JPA Outbound Gateways come into play. They give you the ability to persist data as well as retrieving data. To facilitate these uses, Spring Integration provides two types of JPA Outbound Gateways:
Whenever the Outbound Gateway is used to perform an action that saves, updates or soley deletes some records in the database, you need to use an Updating Outbound Gateway gateway. If for example an entity is used to persist it, then a merged/persisted entity is returned as a result. In other cases the number of records affected (updated or deleted) is returned instead.
When retrieving (selecting) data from the database, we use a Retrieving Outbound Gateway. With a Retrieving Outbound Gateway gateway, we can use either JPQL, Named Queries (native or JPQL-based) or Native Queries (SQL) for selecting the data and retrieving the results.
An Updating Outbound Gateway is functionally very similar to an Outbound Channel Adapter, except that an Updating Outbound Gateway is used to send a result to the Gateway's reply channel after performing the given JPA operation.
A Retrieving Outbound Gateway is quite similar to an Inbound Channel Adapter.
This similarity was the main factor to use the central
JpaExecutor class to unify common functionality
as much as possible.
Common for all JPA Outbound Gateways and simlar to the outbound-channel-adapter, we can use
Entity classes
JPA Query Language (JPQL)
Native query
Named query
for performing various JPA operations. For configuration examples please see Section 18.6.4, “JPA Outbound Gateway Samples”.
JPA Outbound Gateways always have access to the Spring Integration Message as input. As such the following parameters are available:
parameter-source-factory
An instance of
o.s.i.jpa.support.parametersource.ParameterSourceFactory
that will be used to get an instance of
o.s.i.jpa.support.parametersource.ParameterSource.
The ParameterSource is used to resolve the
values of the parameters provided in the query. The
parameter-source-factory attribute is ignored,
if operations are performed using a JPA entity. If a
parameter sub-element is used, the factory
must be of type
ExpressionEvaluatingParameterSourceFactory,
located in package o.s.i.jpa.support.parametersource.
Optional.
use-payload-as-parameter-source
If set to true, the payload of the Message
will be used as a source for providing parameters. If set to
false, the entire Message will be available
as a source for parameters. If no JPA Parameters are passed in,
this property will default to true.
This means that using a default
BeanPropertyParameterSourceFactory, the
bean properties of the payload will be used as a source for
parameter values for the to-be-executed JPA query. However, if
JPA Parameters are passed in, then this property will by default
evaluate to false. The reason is that JPA
Parameters allow for SpEL Expressions to be provided and therefore
it is highly beneficial to have access to the entire Message,
including the Headers.
<int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway <int:poller/> <int-jpa:transactional/> <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway> <int:poller/> <int-jpa:transactional/> <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway>
<int-jpa:retrieving-outbound-gateway <int:poller></int:poller> <int-jpa:transactional/> <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:retrieving-outbound-gateway> <int:poller></int:poller> <int-jpa:transactional/> <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:retrieving-outbound-gateway>
This section contains various examples of the Updating Outbound Gateway and Retrieving Outbound Gateway
Update using an Entity Class
In this example an Updating Outbound Gateway
is persisted using solely the entity class
org.springframework.integration.jpa.test.entity.Student
as JPA defining parameter.
<int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway
Update using JPQL
In this example, we will see how we can update an entity using the Java Persistence Query Language (JPQL). For this we use an Updating Outbound Gateway.
<int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway> <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway>
When sending a message with a String payload and containing a header rollNumber with a long value, the last name of the student with the provided roll number is updated to the value provided in the message payload. When using an UPDATING gateway, the return value is always an integer value which denotes the number of records affected by execution of the JPA QL.
Retrieving an Entity using JPQL
The following examples uses a Retrieving Outbound Gateway together with JPQL to retrieve (select) one or more entities from the database.
<int-jpa:retrieving-outbound-gateway <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:outbound-gateway>
Update using a Named Query
Using a Named Query is basically the same as using a JPQL query directly. The difference is that the named-query attribute is used instead, as seen in the xml snippet below.
<int-jpa:updating-outbound-gateway <int-jpa:parameter <int-jpa:parameter </int-jpa:outbound-gateway> |
Stranded is excited to announce its fourth annual holiday trunk show taking place on Sunday, December 4th at Illiterate Gallery (82 S. Broadway, Denver).
Find the perfect present this holiday season with one-of-a-kind designs from Stranded Jewelry and three other Denver-area designers.
In addition to the rare, re-worked vintage accessories that have made our trunk shows popular, Stranded will be debuting two new collections: Arabesque Meets West and Hot Metal.
Utilizing materials salvaged from costume trinkets of yesteryear, the new Stranded Jewelry Vintage Collection offers elegant and eco-friendly looks touched by the style of the past.
The concept behind Arabesque Meets West was to incorporate the exotic style of the Middle East into urban, fashion-forward jewelry. This collection is unique, exotic, and beautiful.
Mixing a variety of warm-toned alloys such as copper, brass, and gunmetal is how the Hot Metal collection was formed. This fun, anything goes collection is edgy, sexy, and fun to wear.
Joining Stranded Jewelry at the Trunk Show are three fellow local artists. Creating green-minded jewelry by using second-hand materials, billie & honey craft unique apparel, accessories and handbags. Also featured at the show are Counter Couture, offering specialty silk-screen prints on everything from handtowels to t-shirts and Montana Girl, who creates charming lariat scarves, flower pins, and countless accessories utilizing yarn collected throughout journeys and adventures around the world.
This event offers a great way to find the best in Mile High style while mixing and mingling with other fashionistas finding the perfect locally designed look.
The special event only happens once a year and is free to attend and open to the public.
Stranded Jewelry Trunk Show
December 4, 11am – 3pm
@Illiterate Gallery
82 S. Broadway Denver CO 80209
For more information, contact:
Stranded Jewelry
Amelia Deleon
[email protected]
phone: 720.984.6007
Stranded In Denver – Season Finale!
Like most awesome things (HBO shows, strawberries, summertime), there is a season….the Stranded In Denver series is taking a little hiatus and will be back next Summer for your enjoyment but lucky for our readers we’ll be going out with a BANG!
Don’t worry, we’re not killing anyone off but rather wrapping up this Labor Day weekend by:
- Introducing you to the incredible ladies that have helped make this project a great success,
- giving you a sneak peak at some pieces from our Fall Collection (coming to our website very soon!)
- and last but not least, a MOST AWESOME CONTEST GIVEAWAY!! If that’s not something to jump up and down about, I don’t know what is!
THE LADIES of STRANDED IN DENVER
These dedicated and enthusiastic assistants helped me search for fashionistas all over the Denver metro area and helped make the process of dressing, photographing, and interrogating SID models as smooth and painless as possible. This project wouldn’t have been possible without their help. Allow me to finally introduce Taryn Spranza, Dana Palmer, and Karen Amrhein.
Taryn, a lover of all living creatures and 80′s pop music, and certainly wise beyond her youth, took on her assistant role more seriously than anyone, including myself! Poised, confident, warm, and friendly – Taryn really impressed not only me, but the models we worked with shoot after shoot.
Dana has an energy about her that’s not only infectious but addictive. If I could read auras, I imagine hers would be a bright fuchsia with bright blue polka dots. Dana helped make each of my models relax, enjoy their experience, and most importantly LAUGH!
Karen, a free-spirited consultant and mom to two beautiful boys, brought so much dynamic energy to our shoots. Don’t let her tough arm tattoo fool you, Karen has a vibrant warm personality that helped balance my dry sense of humor.
ENTER TO WIN A STRANDED JEWELRY NECKLACE!
Five lucky fashionistas will be the proud owners of a necklace from our Stranded Jewelry Fall Collection! We are giving away the must-have piece of the season (pictured directly above) made with beautiful coral-colored jasper beads complimented with an antique brass oval chain and valued at $75. Measuring 40 inches in length, this piece will compliment all your favorite fall essentials. See contest instructions below!
- Below is a list of questions we asked our three lovely assistants. We’ve mixed and matched their responses to the questions – All YOU have to do is guess which answer belongs to which assistant and voila – you WIN! Simple as that! We’ll give you a helpful tip, some of the clues as to who said what are hidden in this very blog post! There is also a bonus question at the end, get this question right and it will replace one incorrect response to questions 1 -10; giving you more opportunity to win!
- Your response needs to be in the form of a blog post. One submittal per person please.
- Because readers will be able to see each other’s responses, we won’t announce the winners until we have our FIVE winning posts – we will notify the winners and deliver your necklace!
- Contest ends Sunday, September 18 or once we have our five winners – whichever comes first!
- Immediate family members of our three assistants are unfortunately disqualified from participating in this contest.
What are you waiting for? Submit your entry today!
Stranded Contest Questionnaire(Guess which of our three assistants (Taryn, Dana, or Karen) replied to each question below – the first five people to get all ten questions right, wins a FREE Necklace valued at $75!). If you get the bonus question right, it will replace one wrong answer to questions 1 -10 – giving you more opportunity to win!
I want to give a special thank you to the professionals that helped make this last SID blog post possible. Thanks to Wonderfully Made Makeup Artistry by Maria for lighting up the faces of these beautiful gals, the talented Jared with Inner G Salon for the fabulous hair, and last but not least, Jessica Juriga Photography for the amazing photos! You guys ROCK!
Another very special thank you goes out to the classy ladies who were gracious enough to lend us their time, their personal information, and their beautiful faces! Thank you for making this a great summer for Stranded Jewelry!
Amelia
Stranded In Denver with Heather Lopez
Stranded Fans, allow me to introduce Heather Lopez. We met Heather in the Highlands neighborhood walking her dog and heading to the local yogurt shop with her nephew Cameron. Although Heather grew up in Boulder, she is a recent transplant from California and is loving every minute of her new surroundings. As with most of our models, we adorn them with a few different styles of jewelry to see what works best – but when Heather saw these turquoise colored drop earrings, her face lit up and I immediately knew that this would be the pair to shoot.
What’s great about the color turquoise is that it looks fabulous on just about any skin tone, whether you’re a sun-kissed blonde like Heather or an olive-skinned brunette. No other color says summer quite like it and no summer wardrobe is complete with out it!
Special thanks to our former California Girl who lit up our lens with her sparkly baby blue eyes! Read more about Heather below.!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Erika Oliver
Stranded Fans, allow me to introduce Erika Oliver, our next lovely addition to the Stranded In Denver summer series. We met Erika in the Highlands neighborhood where she was on her way home from work. Midway through her first week in a new job, Erika was ready to kick off her shoes and enjoy a well-earned glass of wine. Luckily, she was willing to take a few minutes from her evening to assist us with our project.
It never ceases to amaze me how putting a camera in front of someone can immediately transform their personality from professional/serious to quirky, playful, and even flirty. That’s definitely what we got from Erika! Once adorned with jewelry, she quickly forgot about her planned night of relaxation and dove right into some very sassy shots! We modeled Erika with several different pairs of earrings but my Trusty Assistant and I both agreed that Erika was Prettiest in Pink. The vibrant hot pink in the earrings matched Erika’s personality to a ‘T’. Her smile: infectious, her personality: contagious, and my only complaint was that she left us wanting more.
Thank you Erika for a fun shoot and some gorgeous photos! Read more about Erika below.!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Gina Scalzi
Stranded Fans, allow me to introduce Gina Scalzi. We met Gina while walking out of City, O’ City Café and as fate would have it, she was walking in. If Gina looks familiar it’s because she’s an accomplished actress starring in several independent films, theatre, and several regional and national commercials. Gina was definitely at home in front of the camera, super confident and oozing Italian charm. With her sharp and to the point attitude and mysterious piercing dark eyes, she reminded me of an exotic and complex character in a romance movie.
This dark haired beauty would have been a perfect candidate to model several of my middle-eastern inspired jewelry but I had a different look in mind for her that day. We complimented Gina’s exotic look with a repurposed vintage necklace from the 70’s. The long and short drops in the chain are complimented by the long layers in her hair. Bustling around her with jewelry and interview questions, Gina took it all in with the ease and confidence of a true star.
Even with all the havoc around her, Gina commanded the camera and gave us some striking photos. Grazi Bellissima for the stunning photos! Read more about Gina below.!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Cassie Gootee
Stranded Fans, please meet Cassie Gootee, our next Stranded victim in Denver’s Capitol Hill neighborhood. This fiery-haired siren quickly caught our eye as we strolled through the Buffalo Exchange in search of a few props for our shoot.
In addition to Cassie’s striking presence, we noticed her keen sense of style – let’s face it: not surprising for anyone who works at the Buffalo Exchange let alone the Store Manager! Cassie has managed the Buffalo Exchange for the past three years and has a love for fashion on or off the job.
We complimented Cassie’s look with a bold piece made with a large but delicate Lucite flower pendant, blue crystals, and brass mesh chain. This piece combines feminine charm with an edgy urban appeal. We thought it quite fitting for Cassie’s style. Sort of sassy southern belle meets city chic. Cassie’s gorgeous smile lit up our camera and resulted in some damn good photos; choosing just one was the most difficult part! Thank you Cassie for the gorgeous photos. Read more about Cassie below.!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver With Shae Whitney
Stranded Fans, please meet Shae Whitney, our first Stranded victim to be captured in Denver’s Capitol Hill neighborhood. We spotted this beauty tending bar at City, O’ City. With her 1920’s Louise Brooks vibe, this dark-haired starlet from another era captivated our camera like no other. This photo takes me back to the glamour days of flappers, long-stem cigarettes, and prohibition. It’s fitting that she tends bar, no?
I was elated to locate a piece that would accentuate Shae’s fantastic look. Although every intent of this asymmetrical turquoise flower and white jade necklace was to flaunt a modern look, Shae’s overpowering style transports this piece into a timeless vintage treasure. All set to head over to the speakeasy!
This necklace is bold, feminine, and classic – and the same could be said for our model. Thank you Shae for the vintage glam shoot and some breathtaking photos! Read more about Shae below.
Model: Shae Whitney
Age: 24
Occupation: Mixologist/Bartendress
Describe Your Look with One Word: 1920’s
What do you like your jewelry to say about you? I love big gold pieces. I’m a Leo and I feel that they accentuate my bold nature.
What were you up to when we stopped you today? Heading home from work to feed my chickens.
What’s she wearing? Shae is wearing an asymmetrical necklace made with a beautiful turquoise flower and large white jade stones on sterling silver chain. Like what you see? If so, please visit us at!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Alisa Carrington
Allow me to introduce Alisa Carrington. I have to be honest – my accomplice and I thought we were done shooting for the day and wanted to celebrate with a patio margarita at El Diablo.
Turns out there was a gorgeous diabolina running around El Diablo - there’s a little bit of mischief behind those adorable freckles and crazy cute dimples – no? My associate and I gave each other a knowing look, each recognizing that our work for the day was not done!
Although busy and definitely taken off guard, Alisa was gracious enough to sit down for a few minutes to model some earrings, answer a few questions, and give us some stunning photos. Alisa’s badass pixie hair and fresh face was complimented with a pair of blue fan drop earrings made with glass beads on elegant sterling silver ear wire. These earrings provided Alisa just the right pop of color to compliment her auburn hair and beautiful tan. What a great end to a successful day of shooting!
Thank you Alisa for an amazing shoot and some gorgeous pictures! Read more about Alisa below.!
Thanks for reading and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Carly Dutch-Greene
Stranded Fans, allow me to introduce Carly Dutch-Greene. Carly’s killer tan was the by-product of her 10 relaxing days in Greece! Along with her golden glow, she caught my eye with her bright coral romper and summer sandals. Carly had “The Perfect Summer Look” and I knew I had to capture it for our Stranded In Denver summer series.
Carly says the vivid butterfly tattoo over her right shoulder symbolizes freedom, beauty, and transformation. My goal was to accentuate her tattoo with some bright, playful earrings so the choice to adorn her with Stranded’s Flower Power earrings was an easy one. Made with large teal colored Lucite flowers and bright green glass beads, these earrings were a perfect match!
Looking at Carly’s photo, with her golden skin and fun summer earrings makes me want to book a tropical vacation ASAP! Thank you Carly for an amazing shoot and some gorgeous pictures! Read more about Carly below.Model: Carly Dutch-Greene Age: 19 Occupation: Full Time Student at UC Denver Describe Your Look with One Word: Classy What do you like your jewelry to say about you? I like for my jewelry to represent my unique side. I also have a weakness for earrings! What were you up to when we stopped you today? Enjoying the afternoon with my girlfriend Paige and some Sweet Action Ice Cream. What she’s wearing? Carly is wearing one of our most popular earrings from our summer collection. These statement earrings are made with large teal colored Lucite flowers complimented with bright green glass beads with a bird etching for $25. Like what you see? If so, visit us at! Thanks again Carly! Have a great holiday weekend and stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Kaitlin Yaws
It is my pleasure to introduce Kaitlin Yaws, our next gracious participant in Stranded In Denver series. When we met up with Kaitlin in the Denver Design District, she was in a hurry to head out to lunch. Although pressed for time, Kaitlin was kind enough to assist us for what she recognized was a much worthy cause: FASHION!
What I first noticed about Kaitlin was her pretty “Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” vibe. She rocks a fierce ‘do that most of us would die for and with the beautiful angles of her face and neck, I knew she’d be the perfect earring model. Her shots were amazing and the jewelry popped against her skin.
Kaitlin, you didn’t make us look good, you made us look REAL GOOD. Read more about Kaitlin below!Model: Kaitlin Yaws Age: 29 Occupation: Interior Designer Describe Your Look with One Word: Edgy What do you like your jewelry to say about you? I like for my jewelry to express my creative side. What were you up to when we stopped you today? Headed out to lunch. What’s she wearing? As with our model, these earrings are edgy and sleek. Kaitlin is rocking our long drop earrings made with beautiful bright blue briolette quartz and strung on sleek gunmetal chains for $25 Like what you see? Visit our website at. Thanks so much Kaitlin! Stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Paige Mitchell
Audience, please meet Paige Mitchell, our next target in the Stranded In Denver project. Paige is a full-time student and has a passion for the art of dance. When I first approached Paige window shopping along Broadway, she was friendly but slightly reserved. To my surprise, once I put her in front of the camera, this bright-eyed beauty came alive wasting no time in giving me several sassy, flirtatious shots. The camera certainly loved her and so did my jewelry. Paige, you ROCKED it girl!Model: Paige Mitchell Age: 20 Occupation: Full Time Student at UC Denver and Dancer Describe Your Look with One Word: Chill What do you like your jewelry to say about you? To represent my fun and outgoing side. I also have an appreciation for various types of style. What were you up to when we stopped you today? Enjoying the afternoon with my friend Carly and some Sweet Action Ice Cream! What she’s wearing? Paige is wearing a very unique piece made with a repurposed vintage filigree pendant strung on circular brass chain for $45.
Like what you see? Visit our website at.
Thanks so much Paige! Stay tuned until next week to see who else is left Stranded In Denver!
Stranded In Denver with Amy Carr
I’m excited to present to you our very first victim in the Stranded In Denver series. Audience, please meet Amy Carr, owner and stylist at Double Dutch Hair Studio on Broadway. Don’t let her tough-looking exterior fool you, Amy’s got such a sweet disposition and gorgeous blue eyes that made our necklace light up the moment she put it on. Amy definitly rocked our photo shoot and will be a tough act to follow!Model: Amy Carr Occupation: Owner/Stylist – Double Dutch Hair Studio Describe Your Look with One Word: Eclectic What do you like your jewelry to say about you? To express my originality What were you up to when we stopped you today? Working on the Double Dutch Hair Studio Grand Opening this Saturday, June 11. What’s she wearing? Amy is wearing a multi-stranded asymmetrical necklace with a large teal flower, strands of brass chain, and repurposed vintage chunky lucite beads.
Thanks so much Amy! Stay tuned next week to see who’s left Stranded In Denver!
I’ve intrigued you deeply with my first blog post, I know. And so now, I introduce a fun and quirky segment of Stranded Jewelry called Stranded In Denver.
I do love jewelry. I think about it all the time. I’m embarrassed to admit that sometimes I imagine strangers I see, walking down the street or sitting at a bar, wearing my jewelry and how great they would look. With just the right pop of color here, and just the perfect chunky necklace there – I’m at peace with the lovely vision I’ve created in my head.
Yes, I acknowledge this behavior is odd and very intrusive if someone was ever to suspect, but I can’t control myself. So I thought I’d channel this odd behavior into something positive. This, and with the help of my creatively genius sister Yasmine, is how the concept of Stranded In Denver was developed. Only the twist is, instead of singling out gals in need of accessory makeovers, I’d go out in search of great style and attitude in the City of Denver. Once my target is selected, I adorn her with Stranded Jewels and feature her on my blog with a few sassy snapshots and a little get-to-know-ya bio.
So, stay tuned because this week we will be hitting the streets of Denver looking for some fashionistas to beautify my blog!
Hi and welcome to my very first blog post! My name is Amelia and I’m a jewelry designer living in Denver, Colorado. I left my full time job in the engineering industry in February 2011 to pursue my jewelry passion full time and I couldn’t be more excited! The spring season has been wonderful so far with two successful shows, first at the Denver Fashion Spring Market in April and then at the Boulder Creek Festival last weekend.
My web site’s design and shine is the product of the fabulous people at Poitra Visual Communications. Seriously, these folks are amazing and I can honestly say that I can’t keep up with their creativity – check it out –. For more of the vintage and one-of-a-kind items, visit my Etsy online store and of course I’ll be at several summer festivals including the Highlands Festival on June 18th. Feel free to check out my events page to find out all of our stops this year and the area stores where you can find select pieces!
So that’s who I am, but who are you? That’s the question I’m going to answer with my Stranded in Denver series! I see fashionistas strolling the streets of Denver every day and I want to meet you to inspire and be inspired. I plan to set out and find all of you creative souls sporting your unique styles from vanity to vulgar. So follow along as I explore the streets of Denver, dive into some do’s and don’ts of the jewelry industry, and occasionally post completely unrelated yet adorable photos of my dog Jack.
Amelia
Location: Denver, CO 80209
Hours: Mon - Sat: 8:00 am - 5:00 pm
Phone: 720-984-6007
Website:
Local Denver Jewelry Designer, specializing in vintage jewelry and hip, funky, fresh new designs too!
Archives
- November 2011 (1)
- August 2011 (3)
- July 2011 (4)
- June 2011 (5)
- May 2011 (1)
Categories
- custom jewelry in denver (11)
- Trunk Show (1)
- Uncategorized (2)
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Boutiques & Online Shops
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Wedding Jewelry |
>>.
call me old-fashioned (Score:2, Funny)
But I prefer my leaves unelectrified.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I'm waiting until they can actually use photosynthesis. Until then, this is just STEMS and SEEDS as far as I'm concerned.
Battery. (Score:2)
Speaking of the obvious:
all-electric
... car will have a 100-mile range,...
In other words, it will have a 60 mile range when it's fresh off the lot, and a 30 mile range after the first few months.
Let's be honest, this is combining an industry that habitually lies about fuel economy with batter tech (Laptop manufacturers are regarded as always lying about these.).
Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
That will be interesting when your iPhone gets hacked. [slashdot.org]
This just in (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:5, Interesting)
Before anyone panics (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Informative)
"You aren't going fucking anywhere, dude".
I recently did a trip through Wales with mates in a car with a nice GPS, but when you plan a trip that's longer than your car's fuel tank, having it add a "refuel your car here, take this exit off the freeway" sort of show would be REALLY handy.
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm starting a company to do just that -- Celadon Applications, LLC. We already have a fully functional prototype and are in the middle of raising money to add some more features and polish to make it into a commercial product (the prototype is a bit cluttered and could use to be more user-friendly). The prototype [rechargeamerica.net] makes use of weather forecasts, 10-meter altitude data with a vertical resolution of 4 inches, and so forth, along with driver behavior modeling and physics calculations every several meters to determine how much charge you'll have at each point along the trip. The final version will have a very powerful crowd-sourced, trust network-validated charger database overlay on the map as well (it's coded, but is currently being debugged). So you find your route won't make it to your destination, no problem -- you drag it over to a charging station. And you can click on the station, get pictures, reviews, find what there is to do in the area, etc. It'll initially be populated with not just "known" recharging stations, but also "likely" recharging places, such as RV parks and so forth -- as well as phone numbers and email addresses to contact their owners. And you can add your own charging stations, even just a high-power outlet in your garage -- and list a fee for it if you want.
We've done some accuracy validation on the simulator part with a Tesla Roadster. Of 7-ish legs that we tested, all but one of them were in the 2-4% error range. The last one was on surface streets and was about 12% error because Google was way off on how much traffic there was going to be (they said 40 minutes, it actually took closer to 25); when we hard-coded it to get the amount of traffic right, it fell back into the normal error range. To counter that issue, we're going to add real-time traffic forecasts in wherever available. Oh, and this is so far without any of Tesla's help. If we can get more detailed hardware specs, we can do even better.
The market forecasts range wildly, but they range from a million or two EVs up to 32.7 million shipped by 2015 (Wintergreen Research). Either way, it's a massive market, and even with just a couple percent penetration, there's huge profit potential and the potential to create a lot of jobs. And it should help open up the EV market to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise consider them. And most of our competition is way behind -- the standard approach, you'll find, is just to draw a circle around the car and say this is how far you can drive (as though you can go just as far over the top of Mount Whitney as you can over flat land on good roads).
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Funny)
The prototype makes use of weather forecasts, 10-meter altitude data with a vertical resolution of 4 inches
You are so doomed [wikipedia.org]...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-crowd-sourced chargers are no bette; check out EVChargerMaps some time. But the advantage of crowd sourcing with a trust network is you can get an idea of how much you can trust it. And with contact information for the owner, you can call up in advance. Our system is also designed to send followup emails every three months to station owners asking them to verify that their charger is still working and to follow a link to confirm it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative).
Interesting? Probably, but not really necessary in practice. It's normal for inexperienced drivers to obsess about range -- there's even a term for it: range anxiety. But it's merely a psychological problem -- range itself is almost never a problem.
EVs just aren't designed for road trips. Sure, you can do it if you're patient and determined. But the good news is that they're perfect for the other 97% of our driving needs, and as a result, most people, most of the time, just plug the thing in at home,
100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
In a slowly-moving traffic, a running A/C will really eat into battery life... Somebody working, say, 40 miles from home — not that unusual — will need the charge to last 80 miles plus whatever extra for the air conditioning... Depending on how hot it is, they may or may not be able to pick kids from school on the way home...
Unless it is really cheap, I don't see, why many people would rush to buy it. "Normal" cars last about 300 miles and can be "recharged" (to 100%) in 3 minutes, instead of 80% in 30...
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:5, Insightful)
The millions of people who have short commutes who live in urban areas would do just fine with a car like this and many people like the idea of not just driving without relying on oil, but also not contributing to their city's level of smog.
I just wish I knew how much this thing costs.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not really. I live in an urban area (Seattle). I even take public transit most days. I wouldn't even consider switching my gas car for a car like this.
1)I don't have an outlet in my parking space. Not even the home one, much less at lots near work. Most people in dense urban areas don't.
1a)I don't always park at home even over night. Sometimes I'm at a girlfriend's, sometimes I'm at a hotel in another city. Neither would have an outlet even if I had one in #1.
2)When there's an accident on a bridge, I
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If we all wanted to sweat all the way to work, we'd all be cycling or walking.
I only do that "turn off aircond to save power" thing if my fuel tank gauge shows "below E". And even in that scenario I can probably squeeze out half the max range of a typical battery powered car.
It takes about 2-5kW to run a car airconditioner (from the figures Toyota give for their P
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Turn off the AC? Only if you want to die.
What's worse is places like this are a double whammy for electric cars based on batteries. We have to replace our lead-acid battery every two years because the heat eats it. Li batteries are almost as sensitive (if not more so) so this 'battery packs last 5-10 years is more like 2-3 here.
One more problem - the Phoenix Valley is nearly 75 miles across.
Before Phoenix can embrace the electric car we need 300+ m
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, in most places in the US, this is the only option.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
>> 1)I don't have an outlet in my parking space. Not even the home one, much less at lots near work. Most people in dense urban areas don't.
You don't think that would change? BC Transit just added outlets for charging electric bikes at a lot of their light rail stations. If people started driving electric cars then charging stations would materialize (progressive companies would install them at work for example).
>> 1a)I don't always park at home even over night. Sometimes I'm at a girlfriend's, sometimes I'm at a hotel in another city. Neither would have an outlet even if I had one in #1.
Your girlfriend is Amish? Hotels are very likely to start offering a charging service if electric cars were available.
>> 2)When there's an accident on a bridge, I can take 2 hours to drive home. I wouldn't trust it to keep a charge for that long idling.
Umm... Idling? Are you kidding? What exactly do you think will idle on an electric car? Running AC full blast might be a problem (could be alleviated with solar cells, like the prius already has), but the other power drains (minimal lighting, radio) won't drain the batteries significantly.
>> 3)I want the option of being able to drive farther. I want to be able to drive an hour or two out of the city on a weekend, or take a road trip. This car doesn't have that. So I'll need another car anyway. I don't have room for two in my garage. So add 100-150 a month for a parking spot to the price.
If you do a road trip every weekend, then yes I agree an electric car wouldn't work for you. But if you do a road trip only occasionally, then there are many car sharing services (ZipCar) or even better, car sharing co-ops, and also plenty of rental agencies. You don't have to own two cars just because you occasionally want to drive far.
>> 4)I don't always drive to work. Occasionally I drive to work (20 mi), to a concert venue after work (40 mi), then home (30 mi). That's cutting it too close.
Even assuming none of those places had a charging opportunity, the second generation electric cars will be perfect for you, since they will surely add that extra 20 miles of range.
>> 5)I'm forgetful. If I forgot for even 1 evening to plug it in I'd be in trouble. That's not acceptable. It needs to be able to go at least a week without plugging in.
I suppose you'll just have to suck it up and turn your brain on for a change. A minor inconvenience in the big picture I think.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:5, Informative)
Please - just because this is useless to you, doesn't mean it's useless.
Americans on average have 2.28 cars per household. The majority have a garage and can easily plug the thing in.
The average driver drives 15,000 per year. Most days have a predictable amount of driving that will be well under the 100 mile range.
At $30,000, this car will be cheap to operate over the life of the vehicle. No oil change, simple transmission, no coolant. Inexpensive energy.
Having friends who already own electric cars - I can tell you that the joy of having your car "full" every morning is wonderful. No more unplanned trips to the gas station. It's hard to state how fantastic this is.
Imagine if you had to take your cellphone to the mobile phone store a couple times per week to "fill" it up. We tolerate that with cars because that's what we're used to.
As a 5 seater hatchback, I can drive the kids to school, commute and get groceries. With 100 mile range, I can drive up to wine country for the weekend. Sure, I'll have another vehicle to tow my boat and drive into the mountains. But this car sounds fantastic and will handle 95% of my trips. If they build it, I will definitely buy one.
But I guess I'll be the only one, since it's "useless"
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You obviously have not had to sit in a car on the freeway with the sun beating down on it. The A/C is going to need to run almost nonstop to keep it tolerable.
Consider the fact that, in as little as 30 minutes, a parked car can turn itself into a fucking OVEN. As in, a car can raise itself by 1 degree per minute even if the outside ambient temperature is a mere 70 degrees.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
Been there, done that. Mid-summer Los Angeles traffic near the 405/101 interchange with two nearby accidents a few years ago (one of the events that scarred me enough to stay out of LA whenever possible). Temps were right around the 100-degree mark, and all of those exhaust vapors made breathing even more difficult. The engine was overheating, so I had to kill the A/C to reduce the load, and rolled down all of the windows. It wasn't a pleasant scenario, but even though there was little wind, it was not the deadly oven that you're describing.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I forget to put gas in the car, a little light comes on when I still have a gallon or so left, and I pull into a conveniently placed refilling station, which in an urban setting is every few miles. Refilling takes 5 minutes. Running out isn't an issue. If you're 40 miles from home and get a warning that you're low on charge, you're fucked. You have no place you can easily and quickly refill- a full charge is 8 hours. Even a partial charge would be an hour or so. The logistics of that just don't wo
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
"do I have enough fuel? Where can I get more fuel? I will plan my route and time accordingly!" It's really not that hard, Einstein.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You completely missed the point of his comment. Have you ever had to get somewhere at a specific time, and planned on leaving just early enough only to realise you need to get gas? That is what he is talking about.
Also, thank you for stating the obvious. Everyone understands the drawback of a slow charging electric car. However, for daily commutes in a lot of cities this would suffice. And as the GP stated, most households have more than 1 car, so for the longer trips they still have access to a gasoline fu
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The difference is that with an electric, you'll basically be topping it off any time you're at home. It's like leaving every morning with a full tank of gas, so unless you're doing a lot of driving that day, you should rarely get to the point where the "low fuel" light comes on.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're that paranoid though. Crack your windows. Car windows generally open at the top first and heat likes to escape through the top of the cabin.
Additionally. You live in Seattle. This year has been a freak year for temperatures, I'll give you that, but most of the time the outside temperature is pretty
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Where did I say anything about carjackers?
Rolling down the windows doesn't really help unless there's a breeze. It can make the difference between heat stroke or not in hot weather, but it won't keep you cool. It's not a replacement (unless you're moving and thus generating your own breeze, but that isn't the situation we're discussing).
You're reading way too much into the Seattle thing- electric cars aren't being marketed for Seattle only. This is a problem with the car generally- in California, the M
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
And just where do you think the power comes from when you plug into the wall?
Well, I am pretty sure it at least comes from United States.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Because solar doesn't provide shit for power without a huge surface area. The stuff in the Prius just powers some ventilation fans to keep the air circulating when you're not in the car. That is a huge waste of money in any kind of car scenario.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Contrary to popular opinion, human beings were able to exist prior to air conditioning.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A/C isn't just for hot areas either. It is often used along with heat in the winter time to clear windshields. In many cars, the defrost setting turns on the A/C. The inside of a car can
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I wouldn't brag about have a car that Mexican drug runners wouldn't drive.
Re: (Score:2)
and it's still going to be far cheaper than gas.
references? for all contenders so far, the battery cost alone drive the cost higher than gas (IE find the real cost of batterys divide by miles the are expected to last). With diesel smart cars getting 50 mpg= 2000 Gallons per 100k miles, you'll have to find me a battery under 5000 dollars that will last (and is in production and real today)? Although lead acid golf cart batterys might be close, those gives up almost 1/2 the energy, and thus costs more to operate than a gasoline car.
Don't get me wrong
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
History (Score:2)
Of course, the climate (chuckle chuckle) has changed in the industry so we'll see. But still, I'll believe it when I see it actually go into manufacturing.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:History (Score:5, Informative)
The Volt is not a BEV, it is an EREV. That is, the Volt is a plug-in series hybrid that uses a small gas engine to drive the electrical system (somewhat like a diesel-electric locomotive except with gasoline). The goal is to run all-electric for 40 miles (covering 75% of commuters) and kick in the gas engine when the battery gets low enough.
And it appears to be on schedule for 2010. More info here [gm-volt.com] and here [chevrolet.com].
Sigh. Chevy Volt battery is still too small. (Score:2)
They need a big enough battery to recycle the energy from coming down from a mountain pass to go up the next pass (a longer-range analog of recycling power from a full stop for the next start and acceleration) or cruise across the valley. That will also get a range in excess of a hundred miles on the level and in city traffic.
Do this, with enough engine plus electric horsepower to maintain highway speed up a mountain road, and you've got a car that can fully replace a gasoliine vehicle.
Let's remember a few things for this discussion: (Score:5, Interesting)
1) There is already enough juice in the grid at night to power 80% of the 220 million cars without any further need for more power plants. (According to the DoE) [autobloggreen.com].
2) The average commute for people is far less than 100 miles, which means the only thing you could be missing out on is a truck for hauling or a car for road trip vacations.
Now, the price hasn't been released. If it's under 30K, it's a winner. As the summary said, there's no details on the charge, but as long as I can plug it in at night and it's charged in the morning, it will not only save me gas, but I don't have to bother with filling up.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a clue (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do people always worry about optimizing the wrong things?!?!
Seriously... I'm 36 years old and I've never run out of gas. Never. Am I really that much of an anomoly? Even for someone like yourself, it's got to be more rare than having your car break down with a flat tire or a busted hose or a water pump failure or an alternator.
So yes... running out of juice would require that you call AAA and get yourself towed home. It would suck.
But seriously. I think I'd rather worry about optimizing t
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Informative)
AC (also electric) is going to without a doubt cut down on the battery's life
Actually, not that much, unless you drive *really* slowly. The LEAF will have a 24 kW-h battery. The motor gets
.24 kW-h/mile[1], and assuming you average 30 mph[2], the AC draws .75kW[3], and you use it 100% of the time, we have (x is hours drive time):
24 kW-h = 30 *
.24 * x + .75 * x
[algebra happens]
x =~ 3.0
30mph * 3.0 hours = 90 miles, a 10% hit to overall range.
If they use the AC system as a heat pump instead of a resistive array, range on full heat will be about the same.
Just call up someone and have them bring a bit of gas to make it to the next gas station, but how are you going to move that electric car?
And then, the next gas crunch hits. Everyone's gonna be calling me up to borrow my electric vehicle, but how are you going to move that gas-powered car?
I give a decent percentage chance of this actually occurring for some reason in a closer timeframe than my mean-time-to-oops-dry-tank, which is currently measured in decades.
[1] 100 mile range / 24 kW-h battery [wikipedia.org]
[2] With a crappy 1 hour, 30 mile commute, where you spend good chunk of time cruising the freeway followed by some traffic lights when you get to the city
[3] The amount a 8200 BTU/h window-type air conditioner pulls, which is a reasonable comparable for this size car.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:3, Interesting)
You might want to double-check those figures before accepting them as gospel. They're not assuming charging at night; they're assuming that any and all excess non-peaking capacity in the electrical grid is used to charge the cars. This is wildly unrealistic and provides only a best-case figure. Basically they're saying that if you ran every coal plant in the country ba
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So, I'm 50% wrong, and out of the box we can only charge 90 million cars. Or I'm 75% wrong and it's 45 million. Or I'm 90% wrong, and we can only immediately put 22 million EVs on the road.
Can you give up on progress and go back to whittling wooden crucifixes where you don't have access to a computer? Jesus fucking Christ. I've never run into so many absolutely stupid and cynical naysayers. Just give up and die already, and at least leave more oxygen unmolested.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's remember some other things that I think are relevant to the discussion. Or really just one thing: Amdahl's law's_law [wikipedia.org], which I think is woefully ignored in the green-car world. As an result-oriented environmentalist, this disappoints me immensely.
In short, Amdahl's law says that when you want to improve a system that is made up of lots of different components, you do best to improve the lowest-performing part first. In programming, that means focusing your performance analysis on the parts of the program that are taking the most time before you focus on making the fast parts faster. In terms of automobiles, that means you should replace the most fuel-guzzling part of the fleet before you start thinking about making the thrifty cars thriftier.
Let's do some numbers, for the same number of miles driven, replacing a 12 mpg vehicle with a 15 mpg vehicle saves you as much as replacing a 30 MPG vehicle with a 60 MPG vehicle. Improve that 12 mpg to 18 mpg and now you need to replace a 30 mpg with a 180 MPG car (the EPA calculates the carbon-cost of an electric vehicle using our mix of power source to be roughly 120 mpg) to match the fuel savings.
So if we were really serious about making a dent in oil consumption and CO2, we would be pushing for more fuel-efficient pickup trucks, cargo vans and SUVs instead of this inane (but highly press-friendly!) pursuit of ever-more-efficient small vehicles. The people that drive those vehicles can't or won't replace them with small cars no matter how efficient.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether we value results or whether we value cool technology. As a gadget-nerd, I freely admit that all-electric cars are much sexier than a new pickup truck that gets 16 mpg instead of 12. But the programmer inside me knows that the pickup truck will probably do a lot more good over the lifetime of the vehicle. There are only so many R&D dollars going around and I feel like they aren't being well spent (from the point of view of the environment -- for marketing, the halo effect of the Prius is definitely worth it).
Math? (Score:2, Insightful)
Lets say my commute is 60 miles. You're saying that improving a 30mpg to a 60mpg vehicle, which halves the gas usage, is the same as a 12mpg to a 15mpg, which does nowhere near that kind of improvement?
60/12=5
60/15=4
60/30=2
60/60=1
And then you state:
180/12=12 to 180/18=10
is a greater improvement than
180/30=6 to 180/180=1
What kind of math is this?
The problem, of course, is moving freight around. Rail is insanely more efficient than any other method available. And no, your pickup truck is going to be used for
Re:Math? (Score:4, Informative)
His point is therefore that improving the worse-performing engines (SUV's, trucks, vans, lorries, busses, etc.) so that they *save* an extra N units of fuel will be the largest factor in reducing the fuel consumption. For each truck that gains 6 miles/gallon in efficiency, you'd need a car that gained 120 miles/gallon, or 2 that gained 60,
FWIW, I think his argument falters when you take into account the overwhelming number of cars on the road, compared to other vehicles. If you figure a 20:1 ratio, then that saving of 120 miles/gallon is still only (6*20) or 6 miles/gallon/car. The reciprocal problem, however, is one of uptake (you need 20 cars to have their efficiency increased for the effect of 1 truck, if both cars and trucks gain 6mpg). Personally I think it probably comes out in the wash, so we should strive to improve both
Simon
Buy a Tahoe (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would someone driving a 12mpg truck want to buy a 120mpg shoebox? Those people are not interested in mileage or they'd already be driving something that got 40mpg.
Re:Efficiency (Score:4, Insightful)
Now there's the real scam. Why, if one person owns two vehicles do they have to pay insurance for both vehicles? You can only drive one at a time. I had the same deal for a time there when I owned two motorcycles. Oh boy, I think I got a 10% discount for the second motorcycle. The risk to the insurer is the same for two as one. Price it at the higher vehicle and the second should be free. There's no way I can wreck both vehicles at the same time.
Re: (Score:2)
Ya, cool...that's nice and all. But could someone please tell me where the apartment dwellers are supposed to charge their cars at? Unless there's some sort of metered charging pole (via credit card swipe), I doubt they will let us leech for free. Also, will there be charging poles at designated parking areas while at the office?
I'm not opposed to electric vehicles, but there is some serious down-to-earth questions that need answered first.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
The metered outlets will be installed by a third party and offered as an amenity. It's just like when internet started in apartments first. You install one EV Charge Parking Spot, and you have ten times as many potential customers driving by it every day.
Again, once there's an inexpensive, safe, reliable EV that goes 100 miles on a single charge, all other problems become trivial to solve.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't exactly call adhering to the National Electrical Code and Fire Code to be something trivial. Planning and routing conduit for 220v and maintaining public safety is not to be scoffed at.
Doable? Sure. Trivial? Hell no!!!
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously... is everyone in America a "can't do" blowhard these days?
An auto manufacturer from Japan just did what American companies said was impossible, and has built a 5 seater EV with a 100 mile range with today's technology.. and the problem will be running some goddamn conduit and 220V?
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's a little more difficult to hook up an idiot-, water-, abrasion-, and UV-proof 220V public outlet than a (hopefully) stationary indoor dryer or oven. The problems I see are liability and charging (no pun intended) for use. The rules are already in place for the logistics of installing the outlet, although they're pretty expensive to implement (GFCI [and possibly arc fault], watertight conduit, covered-in-use receptacle, etc). The aesthetic and insurance angles remain open issues.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
Electric vehicles are nearly twice as efficient as ICEs converting their energy store into forward motion. Even if electric energy was 50% more expensive than gasoline energy, it would still save you money.
If this car is less than $22k, I will buy one day-of-release. TFPR does not provide an MSRP, but it does say it will be low-priced. Four doors, and your gas bill gets moved over to your house electric bill. I never drive more than 100 miles in a day, so it would be perfect for getting me around town on all my stop-start errands.
Moving the cost of driving from a fuel purchase tracked with credit card might make it more difficult for people to get reimbursed by their company for business driving. I wonder how that's going to get sorted. Also, in a roommate situation, it becomes a little unfair to evenly split the electric bill if only one tennant is charging a car.
Looks cool.
Seth
Re: (Score:2)
Also, in a roommate situation, it becomes a little unfair to evenly split the electric bill if only one tennant [sic] is charging a car.
Then don't split it evenly. If you already have a roommate and then acquire the car then you'll easily be able to determine what the added cost will be for charging the car, otherwise just split the bill appropriately. It should be possible to calculate the kw/hour used for charging the car that you can do the math once you get the bill.
Re: (Score:2)
Wouldn't it be easier to just buy an electric car to the roommate?
Re: (Score:2)
Looks cool.
Did you click through to the Flash site? Maybe you don't have flash enabled...
It looks worse than Nissan's answer to the Scion xB, the Cube.
Where's the Outlet? (Score:2)
Not everyone owns a house with a handy electrical outlet available.
A little hard to plug in at a condo car port or an apartment parking lot.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps a bit of a random thought, but for apartment / condo car ports if they were roofed with something similar to what BP gas stations use [solarpowerauthority.com] it might help with recharging.
Re:Where's the Outlet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone owns a swimming pool.. are you suggesting people should stop making diving boards?
Not everything is about you.
Re: (Score:2)
Not everyone owns a swimming pool.. are you suggesting people should stop making diving boards?
Not everything is about you.
I live in a condo AND an apartment?
Remember internet access? (Score:2)
Apartments were one of the first spots with internet access, because you could run a few lines and connect up a few hundred people.
Likewise, some company will be offering a cut of metered electric service to the apartment complexes, and they'll be able to list "EV Charging Spots" as an amenity to the apartment.
Really, once an electric car is mass produced, inexpensive, and safe, the rest of the problems that come up are completely trivial.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They have these in my city:
Sure there aren't many yet, but there also aren't any all-electric mass produced cars on the market. Give it time...
Laminated Lithium-ion Batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
9.2 kWh pack recharges in 15 minutes time. This truly could be a game changer in EV-battery technology.
Full detail on the battery tech: [greencarcongress.com]
Just think if it was remote control by Kindle (Score:5, Funny)
It could make the car disappear. Parking problem, solved
Re: (Score:2)
Can somebody explain that joke for the rest of us?
Universal battery form factor is critical. (Score:2, Interesting)
For those looking for... (Score:2)
the price, go here [wired.com]. It is currently slated for under $30k.
200 volt power source (Score:2)
Recharge time is dependent on amp-hours, not volts. If you hook up a 200 volt power source that can only deliver 1 amp, you are not going to charge your batteries in 8 hours because that is only 8 amp-hours.
I image that the car is designed around residential wiring, which is usually 12 gauge and rated at 20 amps, so in 8 hours you should get 8*20=160 amp-hours, which at the quoted 200 volts is 32kWatt-hours. Based on $0.10 per kWh, it should cost $3.
Pwn yourself one today! (Score:2)
an advanced computer system with remote control by IPhone,
So, which character [slashdot.org] do I send to hotwire your car?
Rejected marketing angle: (Score:2)
Just interested in the batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
I wish I can get a hold of the batteries. I am sure they are a better replacement to the Trojan batteries I am using for my solar system.
City states (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should I like this better than say... (Score:4, Insightful)
A Tesla Model S
It has a better range, a quicker full charge, a potential 5 minute battery swap, and the "S" is for SEXY.
lithium-ion tech (Score:3, Interesting)
Lithium-ion batteries are not ready for this task. They are not easy to make. That is why they cost a fortune. I don't think I am alone, but I have never had a Li-ion laptop battery make it more than 1 year in a laptop. After about 1 year the run time on the battery goes from 2 hours ( new ) down to 30-45 minutes. Plus, I don't run on battery power that often. Less than 2 hours a week. This tech is not ready to be put in mass produced cars. I know all the new claims about longevity. I bet the those who believe those claims also believe the claims Lenovo made about the battery in my current laptop. Battery life claims are notoriously unreliable.
One issue is that Li-ion batteries are very sensitive to heat. Leave them out in the sun, and their capacity will drop like a rock - even if you do not use them. This is going to be a huge problem anywhere where it is sunny through much of the year. Heat kills a Li-ion battery's longevity. Parking a car under the LA sun is a perfect way to quickly kill an electric car.
I don't know how much the Nissan battery pack will cost, but a Tesla battery pack runs about $30,000. If you replace it every 2 years, the cost quickly gets out of hand. My guess is that Nissan will not make an binding promises about warranting the battery pack. If it fails ( drops to less than 50% initial capacity ) in less than 3 years, you will be SOL.
I did see an article in the WSJ ( Wall Street Journal ) about an electric lawn mover about 2 months ago. The company clearly stated that the $800 battery pack would have to be replaced approximately every 2 years. Sadly, I think this is the brutal reality when it comes to battery powered vehicles. Massive piles of batteries that will require disposal, and the expense of purchasing new while disposing on the old.
I think a better solution is a supercharged engine that is 1.5 liters or less. Add to that capacitors and electric motors for acceleration. Capacitors are light, so they don't weigh down a car like batteries do. When and only when accelerating, the capacitors power the electric motors to give acceptable acceleration. When cruising, a 1.5 liter supercharge engine should be able to carry most light cars along at 100 mph or less no problem. Massive power is only needed for high speeds ( 100+ mph ) and rapid acceleration. When cruising at constant speed, it does not matter if you have 600 hp or 90 hp. During cruising and braking, the capacitors can be recharged. The capacitors only need enough power for short bursts. They discharge quickly, but also recharge quickly. Start and stop traffic might wear down the power in the capacitors fast than the system can recharge. However, you can accelerate on the engine alone in start and stop traffic. You generally don't need rapid acceleration in start and stop traffic.
Keep in mind coal power production is not exactly what one would call efficient ( less than 50% ). Nor is power transmission ( 10% or more loss ). Nor is turning electricity back into forward momentum. Also, high efficiency batteries are going to require a lot of rare earth metals. Unfortunately, world supply is limited.
Got one (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, I use another car for driving vacations, but these battery electric cars are perfect for some of us.
100-mile range is misleading (Score:3, Interesting)
Nissan is knowingly setting itself up to over-promise and under-deliver by quoting the EPA range of 100 miles, because the EPA test is well known to be extremely optimistic for EVs. AC Propulsion's eBox has an EPA range of ~170 miles, but a realistic range of 130. Tesla's Roadster has an EPA range of ~220 miles, but a realistic range of 175.
Nissan's car will probably have a realistic range of 70-80 miles. The good news is that this is more than enough for many, many households. The bad news is that many households don't realize it, because "range anxiety" is a very real (psychological) phenomenon, even though actual range limits are not.
Re:WORTHLESS (Score:5, Funny)
Two Nissan LEAF cars + duct tape = 320km range.
I like your idea!
on the road charging? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was wondering if I could do the same thing I have for camping trips. I have a front and rear receiver hitch, and a 220V generator on a mount that slides into the receiver hitch. It's 5 hp, and runs a RV air conditioner for 5 hours on under 5 gallons, I am sure you could do a better generator mount than this guy [joe-ks.com] if we get a hitch mount, and just plug the car charger into it for road trips, ditch the weight for in town. Hopefully the chargers aren't locked out while moving. Not only does the GEN not have to meet as many emissions standards ( = cheaper) but has other uses also.
Re:on the road charging? (Score:5, Funny)
Not only does the GEN not have to meet as many emissions standards
That's the spirit!!
Re: (Score:2)
Same, don't need a palm-top when a phone is all thats required.
FTFA it only lets you monitor the battery level and set the climate control.
Re: (Score:2)
According to the lack of replies and even lack of moderation, I would say "nope, just you".
FUD Farm (Score:4, Informative)
You have posted elsewhere the same thing. What are you, the brain damaged step-child of an Exxon board member?
A DOT vehicle can easily carry the batteries to get you to a charging station or even back to your house.
The hurricane fear mongering is just sad.
And maintenance is far less expensive for an EV, because it's far less complicated mechanically. If you'd done any research on the GM vehicle, you'd know that they basically rotated the tires. There are Priuses with over a hundred thousand miles that haven't needed new batteries. And the batteries will be less expensive too replace than putting in an entirely new engine, so you could literally keep the same car for decades if you kept it rust free.
Honestly, who is paying you to repeat the same inane bullshit?
Re:This puts the lie to the H-1B program. (Score:4, Funny)
Um, I'm an engineer, and I'm in Japan, and I'm working for a Japanese company despite my American nationality. Watch it before you make such blanket statements.
;-)
Liar. If you live in Japan, tell me what Mothra is doing right now.
Thought so.
Re:Doomed. (Score:4, Insightful)
According to their press release, they claim that 70% of their target consumers drive less than 100 miles a day. I know there are many USian cities that would make that unfeasable, but it's important to remember that this car is going to be a slam dunk for a lot of people out there.
Furthermore, once these things start to sell, I can't imagine it'd be too long before the capacity becomes comparable to a regular gas-guzzler.
Re:Doomed. (Score:5, Insightful)
So, given the choice between saving thousands dollars a year on gasoline and maintenance, or renting a car for the entire week you get for vacation and the few weekends you can get out of town, you'll pick the more expensive option?
You said this car was "doomed" because it doesn't work for anyone, which is complete nonsense. For many people I know, who nearly always travel to their vacation via airplane, and who rarely leave town on the weekends, a cheap electric plus an occasional rental is the most economic option. And most people live in cities, not out in the sticks.
If you regularly leave on the weekends and you can only afford one car, then go with an ICE. If you live in the sticks, get an ICE. Otherwise, if you do the math, this is the way to go. |
My last post, in which I suggested via t-shirt that persons unspecified should do something anatomically impossible to themselves and repeat from asterisk, has been up rather longer than intended. The plan was to follow up with something considerably chirpier, since bad moods are just that–moods. They pass.
The chirp has been pre-empted, however, due to a recent spate of suicides by young gay people.
This is not a new problem. Nor, sadly, is it uncommon. Suicide is the third-highest cause of death among Americans aged 15-24; and studies published in the past 15 years by the Federal government and the American Journal of Public Health suggest that youth who identify as gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender are two to three times more likely still to attempt to kill themselves.
It’s probably the lurid nature of the events leading up to the death of Tyler Clementi, a Rutgers University freshman, that have pushed the problem out of the pages of specialty publications like our own, dear Windy City Times and into the mainstream media. Tyler Clementi’s private life was surreptitiously streamed onto the Internet by his roommate, who also Twittered to let the world know what he was doing. Tyler, distraught at his abrupt outing and the subsequent torment by his peers, jumped off the George Washington Bridge.
Tyler was one of at least nine young gay men known to have taken their own lives in the past few weeks due to anti-gay bullying.
As a result there have been, and continue to be, statements made by high-profile types–Ellen DeGeneres, Tim Gunn, the cast of “Modern Family,” etc.–under the theme I’ve used as the title of this post: It Gets Better. The message is simple, short, and (one hopes) effective: it may seem like life isn’t worth living, but don’t give up just yet. As you grow older, it gets better.
I’m certainly no celebrity, but I’m adding my squeaky voice to the chorus on the off chance that it might, in a small way, help somebody somewhere sometime. Who knows? Maybe there’s a gay kid out there who’s suffering at the hands of his classmates because he’d rather knit than kick soccer balls. And maybe he wandered in here after Googling “garter stitch” or “toy elephant.”
If you’re reading this, kid, it’s for you.
I know what you’re going through. That’s not an empty statement. I mean I know exactly what you’re going through, because I walked a mile and then some in those leaden sneakers when I was your age.
Thinking about suicide? So did I. In fact, I did more than think about it. I tried it.
It wasn’t my idea.
I was egged on by quite a few authority figures, the ones who seemed at the time to run the world. They weren’t my parents, I hasten to add. I got lucky in the parental department; they didn’t always understand me, but they always loved me.
They–my bullies–were mostly teachers and school administrators. You see, I went to this really, really awful little private high school devoted less to academics than to promoting the veins-in-your-teeth cult of virility. It was no place for sissies, and if they suspected you might be a sissy they did their best to beat it out of you.
I was only there for two years, but the life lessons they taught on a daily basis have always stuck with me. Here’s a small sampler, verbatim, including the language they felt was appropriate to use in front of schoolboys:
“We have to believe gay men choose to be gay. Otherwise we would have to admit that God makes mistakes, because there is no sorrier mistake than a bunch of faggots.”
“If my son turned out to be gay, he’d have two choices. He could shape up, or he could get the hell out of my house before I shot him through the head.”
“God created you to be a man, and to fuck women. If you don’t fuck women, you’re not a man. If you’re not a man or a woman, you don’t fit into creation and the sooner you leave it the better.”
“Frankly, if I was a gay man I’d shoot myself. I mean, I’d be going to Hell anyway and I might as well get on with it and skip over dying from AIDS.”
(Isn't it funny, Mr. Roberts? I don’t remember anything you taught about biology–you were a lousy teacher, so that’s no surprise. Yet I remember so much of what you said with shocking clarity.)
Day in, day out for two long, painful years, I drank it in. I remember being flabbergasted at how often our teachers could work jabs at homosexuality into topics you’d think were completely unrelated. I was 13 and hitting puberty hard, yet I swear I was less obsessed with dick than they were.
Usually these barbs were volleyed at all of us, a general exhortation against the evils of buggery. But on especially bad days, they were aimed pointedly at me, the designated class pansy–while the other boys listened and smirked.
That led directly to problems with a classmate who decided after one such lecture that he was going to prune me, the mutant bud, from the Tree of Life with his own hands–since that’s what God, the saints, and the faculty wanted. I appealed for help to a couple of teachers and to the dean, all of whom told me I was on my own.
If you’re going to act like that, they said, you deserve what you get.
Sound familiar?
Now, I was brought up to be a good kid and respect authority. And authority was telling me I was a horror in God’s eyes, and ought to bump myself off.
So I tried it. Not successfully, obviously. And not right then. I have a strong constitution; it took years for their poison to reach my vital organs. But it was probably bound to happen sooner or later.
It might not have if somebody, anybody, had been there tell me what I’m going to tell you.
People–teachers, parents, classmates, pastors, whoever–who call you a mistake are wrong. Totally wrong. Completely wrong. Wrongeddy-wrong-wrong.
You’re no more messed up than the straight kid in the next chair.
When they say that your nature is unnatural, they do not speak from wisdom. They are either misguided themselves, or they know better and are deliberately lying to you. Either way–you don’t have to listen. In fact, you shouldn’t. In fact, don’t.
I know. They appear to hold all the cards. They can force you to run laps, sit in detention, do punishment homework. But you have my solemn promise that this is temporary. One of these days you’ll be out of there, and such petty power as they possess can no longer touch you.
Hang on. Don’t let them keep you from pushing forward, because what’s waiting for you beyond is quite wonderful. It’s not all couleur de rose, but it’s so much better than what you’re going through right now.
There are ways to get help. The Trevor Project is a good place to start. You don't have to be desperate, either. Better, in fact, to seek a little support before you are desperate.
(And in the meantime, if you don’t know how to knit, please consider learning. It’s a marvelous way to keep calm, knitters are wonderful people to gather ’round you, and nothing says “piss off” to the bigots like a really amazing hand-knitted scarf.)
351 comments:1 – 200 of 351 Newer› Newest»
Life is not a simple pain. We must be loved as we are. Without hope there is nothing. Your words are strong. I will pass them on to my knitting teenaged daughter to share with her friends of all ilks.
Franklin, I love you. You are wise, you are funny and you are a knitter without equal. xxxxxxxxxxooooooooetc.
Posts like this give me hope for the future of this country. Thank you.
thank you. all kids deserve love and support, especially at that difficult and complicated time.
i am so sorry and sad for the pain that you were forced to endure by those hateful bigots.
Bless you, Franklin. And thank you.
Thank you for sharing Franklin. Thank you for using your 'voice' to speak what so many of us feel. And thank you for being you.
I feel your heart in your post. You're truly an un-mistake-able person and I feel it would be an honor to know you.
I am so sorry for what you had to go through and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for trying to make it better for those after you. No one should have to endure this hatred.
Kate
The most empowering words I ever came up with saved me from the incessant verbal abuse of my first husband. A very simple statement:
"You saying it, doesn't make it so."
Learn those words, and it gets better. Bless you Franklin.
Succinct and true.
Franklin, your post is profound and courageous and clear. May it be read by everyone at your former school (so glad you provided the link) and may it provide solace and strength to many, many young people who are being lied to by cowards.
Thank you for posting this. There are too many people saying hateful things to children (and adults, for that matter)... the more people who speak against bigotry, the better.
You are a shining beacon to all those young men who are being suffering because they are gay. You are wise, witty and wonderful (and you can make me laugh out loud). Never change. Thanks for wearing your heart on your sleeve.
Franklin you once again proved how wonderful and special you are. Love you!!!
You are a wonderful role model and "it gets better" is a great mantra. Thanks for a great post.
It hurts me to hear all these stories like yours. Thank-you for showing how it does get better.
*bows in your general direction*
*goes off to write some fiction, in which horrible people who pervert education and abuse their teeny-tiny powers in such a horrific way, come to awful and appropriate ends*
You are a much better person than I am, Franklin-- and I shall pass this on to my students. Thank you.
I am so sorry that you went through this. I live in NJ, so right now I am living in the middle of the discussion about what is happening at Rutgers. My oldest son is a freshman at Michigan State, so all the news there is of what is happening over at the University of Michigan which in its own way is horrifying as well. I cannot tell you how frustrated and angry and most of all heartsick these incidents have made me and everyone else I have spoken to. I am incredibly glad that you now know that it gets better. I only wish I knew how to help young gay people know that sooner.
AMEN, BROTHER! (And did you rig the word verification? Mine is "blessed"!)
Too many kids -- gay, straight, bi, trans, and "none of the above" -- commit suicide because of the hell bullies and bigots put them through.
Kids, if you're reading this, there IS help out there. Things DO get better. Hang in there.
I have tears in my eyes after reading this powerful post, Franklin.
May this post echo out, shedding a brilliant light on bigotry everywhere.
Thank you for so eloquently sharing.
thank you for this
marie in florida
mym on Ravelry
Aw, Franklin. Thank you for your powerful post. I am so sorry you had those experiences--and my heart goes out to anyone experiencing something similar today.
I would just like to say that pretty much every post of yours delights me, at the same time that I'm constantly amazed by your skill and warmed by your love of knitting. You are a gift to the world and, even though I don't know you personally, I am so glad you're here. I hope every other person who might be touched by your words realizes that they are a similar gem waiting to be seen (even if they currently feel more like a pearl before swine).
Franklin, I've been trying to start this comment for a while, and I'm having trouble coming up with how to say this, so I'm just going to go for it:
Thank you.
This whole explosion has been an emotional rollercoaster for me. It's stirred up a lot of old memories and the emotions that went with them. I'm very happy that this issue has become something that we're no longer "keeping in the 'family'" but I'm also devastated that it took something this extreme to make it happen.
And no matter how many times I've told myself that it wasn't my fault, and that "they" were the ones who were wrong, and that it HAS gotten better for me....Reading your post has made me feel a lot less alone. So thank you so much for writing it.
Franklin, thank you for sharing your experience. My 13-yo nephew just told his parents he's gay. I hope he doesn't have to experience any of that but I worry for him.
Love (1000000000)
Hey.
As I started reading this post, my kid walked by, saw It Itches in the sidebar, and said, "Ooooh, I want to read that again."
So if you hear silly kid giggling, that's my son.
How is this relevant? I was a weird kid, who sat at the weird table in the library. I never expected to live this long, because it was so stinkin' lonely.
But it did get better. I found somebody who thought weird was interesting. Eventually I married him.
It got a LOT better. Now I don't care if some people think I'm weird. There are a whole lot of people who disagree, and I'd rather hang with them anyway.
AMEN!
thank you, franklin.
having moved from a more liberal country to the us a while ago, i am shocked almost weekly about the homophobia that is so visible.
just today there was an editorial in our paper that made my blood boil. a teaching intern should have "circumvented" the question whether he was married, instead of saying it was illegal to marry a man.
things will get better. thanks to people like you.
Thank you for this post. (And for providing the links.) I hope, no, I know that you have helped someone through your words. I'm very glad it got better for you.
You, Franklin, are an amazing man. I will pass this on to as many people as I can. When I stop crying. Bless you.
Thank you for being you , for posting on this topic. I was very moved by your words. draw up a rainbow ball of yarn with needles bumper sticker for my car.
cheering you on in Jacksonville,FL.
OH, Franklin, I think you're so succinct and articulate and your raw honestly is unsettling at a time when we need to make others unsettled. The status quo needs to be questioned. Those in "control" need to be questioned. I hope someone reads this and your words strike a chord and that someone, some where understands that things will get better.
I love you!
REPRESENT.
My rage at what was done to that young man still leaves me incoherent.
Franklin, your comments were right on the money. Thank you.
I have reason for hope, despite the sad case at Rutgers. I work with a high school here in California that services low income kids that will be the first in their families to attend college. Over 90% are Hispanic. Hispanic congregations are, in general, as homophobic as many African-American ones are, so the GLBT kids rarely receive support from their spiritual advisors. Their school is different -- they have had a GLBT club for years, and the kids who have come out at school are not ostracized.
In my experience, most young people are not homophobic, even if their parents are (national surveys support this). I tried to reassure my heart-broken college-age son after Prop 8 passed (anti-gay marriage) that by the time he has kids, if not sooner, much of this will have passed.
In case it matters, my son is not gay or questioning (just feels deeply about the issue). It's the biggest issue he has been campaigning for Jerry Brown against Meg Whitman for California governor (she was the #1 individual donor to the "yes on prop 8" campaign, just behind the LDS church).
Thank you for your courage and strength to share. May what happened to you and so many other young people never happen again.
Thank you.
Thanks Franklin.
When I hear stories like the one you told here, my faith in humanity dies a little... but at the same time, the fact that you have put yourself out there to help today's youth to know that It Gets Better restores it too. We love you Franklin - thank you.
So glad you didn't listen and do yourself in, Franklin. There would have been a big hole in the world without you.
Thank you, Franklin, for sharing these difficult & heartbreaking moments. For the life of me, I cannot understand how or why some people are so cruel. (Maybe that's why I like my farm animals a lot more than many people.) I am so very glad that you are still here, and I hope that your words reach many. You are a treasure.
Amen! And thank you....
Thank you to Franklin and thank you to all those who commented. Unfortunately, I went through a very similar situation when I was in high school only 5 years ago. The support all the commenters have shown is phenomenal and I can only hope that things in the US get better through the help of people like you.
Hi Franklin. Thank you for putting this up. They're not my experiences verbatim, but close enough in many ways. It's hard.
I hope you don't mind, but I'm linking this article as my post for today.
Great post!
Thank you for writing this. If we all make an effort for more understanding, tolerance and kindness maybe we can make a difference. I hope so!
Franklin, I am crying for the 13 year old boy who had to endure what you did from people who were supposed to care for children and not poison them. I admire your strength and hope your words can help others.
Bravo! one of my fantasies is a "true God squad" that follows these bullies and beats the holy shit out of them. Because really, that's what they need. Really.
Thank you for the strong powerful words. Words everyone should be able to read and share. You are a very special person for this posting. I so appreciate the chance I had to meet you 3 years ago.
It grieves me to live in a world where intolerance and lack of understanding cause such tragedies. But at the same time, I adore living in MY world where one of my Facebook friends, Michael, asks "so who's your Facebook friend Franklin and could you introduce me?" (I need to reply - "learn to knit first!"
Man, when I was young it didn't even occur to me that "homosexual" was a thing I could be. I was a person, right, and I had interests and things I was excited about, and I had friends; and "homosexual" was someone who was so single-mindedly focused on sex that they would identify themselves only with respect to whom they wanted to fuck. Homosexuals didn't have interests or friends! (Thanks for that insight, conservative Catholic education!)
So I didn't know what to call myself, I was just a girl who didn't want to sleep with boys and who daydreamed about other girls in absolute secret. No lie, I had a fake diary with fake daydreams about boys that I could bust out when my friends wanted to gossip. I would have been hounded terribly if the secret had gotten out. It was bad enough getting called "dyke" by other girls in my class who used it as an equal-opportunity, all-purpose insult—every time I had a flash of panic because maybe someone found out—I can't imagine what would have happened if they had known.
Anyway I'm ten years older now and can also report that it gets better. I discovered that I do like some men sometimes and I'm now in a heterosexual relationship, which means that it got much much much better for me, so much that I feel a little sick thinking about it. It takes a lot of work to undo all the poisonous things you get taught as a kid, though. I hated myself for a long time.
Every "it gets better" speech I read breaks my heart...not as a gay, not as a straight, but just as a person.
I do not understand how people can do this to one another.
Thank you. Very well articulated. It's awful what you went through. I'm glad you're here.
The most moving experience was seeing a gay youth chorus sing at a national chorus convention in 2004. At the time they were the only gay youth chorus. By the next convention in 2008 there were 8. It was the support of adults that made them feel they could stand in public and say This is who I am.
For those who learn a child has come out, be there for that child. Knowing that an adult cares and assures that one is safe makes so much of a difference.
I want to give 15-year-old Franklin (and really, every picked on gay kid) a big hug and tell him that he is exactly as he should be. thank you so very much for sharing your story!
It's really remarkable that fear continues to drive such hatred. We need a day of mourning for these kids.
Franklin! I found your blog only a few days ago. All of your assorted talents impressed me so --
your lovely knitted items are truly amazing--you are so much more advanced than I am,and I have been at it for over forty years. I have laughed so hard at your hilarious blogs; just adore your
style of writing. I guess I have not read anything serious you wrote until this one. (Between working full time in busy office, and having maybe an hour a night to read your blogs, I guess I have
read only the really funny ones, and do indeed plan to read everything you have written!)
These suicides are so sad, but this is nothing new. It just seems we as a society have reached a point of criticism and rudeness and feeling qualified to "condemn" people for being what they are. It is so sad that so many cannot appreciate each individual for his
talents and good qualities and not worry about the superfluous things like sexual orientation or skin color. We seem to hunt down and decimate those who are different from our opinion of...well, those who are not a mirror image of us.
I am so glad you wrote this, and plan to share it with all six of my grandchildren, as well as the responses by other bloggers. They
have been raised to be kind, and generous and tolerant; they must also realize the horrendous consequences that unkindness can yield. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, as well as all the beautiful things you create. Bless you always.
Thank you for this post. It was wonderful.
I love you to pieces! And am glad all of your pieces waded through such crap to get you where you are. Fabulous You!
To those, please, hang on.
Beautifully put Franklin. I was sooo lucky as a teenager (in, of all places, the Chicago suburbs!) I had a peer support group of other gay teenagers, a gay (in retrospect I hasten to add - I was obtuse then) school social worker who made it her business to give us self-esteem and backing and a family who was supportive and understanding. I wish I could give every gay and lesbian kid on this planet the same acceptance and nurturing I got back then (I graduated H.S. in 1973.) And, even if high school was okay, it STILL gets better!
What a great post.
Sometimes I am so ashamed for people who feel the need to pick on others, torture others because they are different.
I don't give up hope that things get better. We all need to work on that.
I am so joyful that the young man you describe became the man you are today: clever, creative, so funny, such an amazing knitter, a truly astounding person. We are all children of this universe, and all have our place here together. While I know it gets better for each individual as the years pass, I truly hope it gets better for the world as a people and that we become more accepting soon.
You're right. It does get better.
If anyone is at the vigil by DePaul tomorrow and you see someone in a rainbow Noro Evergreen shawl... that's me, getting better every day.
Thank you.
You make this world a better place every day you are in it. I'm so glad you stuck around.
Thank you, beautifully said. My coming out was late enough that I didn't get bullied for that (just for being different). My wife and her friend/prom date however were told by the school adminstrators that other kids wouldn't throw rocks at them if they didn't act that way (paraphrased). So, yeah, I'm immensely glad that my Vicki is still around - she tried to take herself out of the world long before we met. Her friend Scotty made it too, somehow. I think that they, too can attest that it DOES get better.
LOVE!!!
xoxoxo
Angelina
Bless you. The comments, as well as the post, give hope.
two summers ago, my husband and i went to visit my sister in wrigleyville. we got there right after that most important weekend. it was wonderful to see the aftermath of the parade and the peace that everyone seemed to have. five years ago, my favorite weekend in my hometown of new orleans was denied my favorite of all celebrations, decadence, because of katrina. i am constantly amazed at the resiliency of the human spirit to come back from an emotional beatdown and have fun and show that certain groups will never be eradicated because of human stupidity. one year, we will be with you to march and support and love- all of us together. until that happens, my love and support.
bywatercyn, now in nashville. (where you are always welcome to visit and have a place to stay with a professional chef in residence!)
Dear Franklin,
all of this nonsensical hatred breaks my heart. As the mother of a 5 and a half year old boy, whom I am about 90% certain will prove to be gay as he matures, I have been shocked at the level of hostility my son has already faced at such a tender age from both adults and other children. Lucky for him the only ambitions his parents hold for him are to be happy and healthy as whatever unique individual he becomes. We role-play how to deal with taunts from other kids about his strong and enduring preference for non-'masculine' play/toys/colours/sports/dress-ups, and have been amazed at his ability to judge social situations for 'appropriateness' in this regard. A helpful skill to have given some of the attitudes we have encountered; as a not-quite-4 year old attending a 4 year old's birthday party in his favourite Cinderella dress-up (which he alternated throughout the party with a 'feminised' bumblebee costume) the birthday boy's uncle refused to include him in any of the party photographs whilst he was wearing “girls' stuff” and after we left raged to our friends holding the party about what crap parents we were!!!
I'm so glad you chose to stay. Our sons and daughters need voices like yours in the world.
Thank you for this, Franklin. I heard a piece on NPR today on this same topic. It breaks my heart to think that those of us, including myself, who so enjoy and admire your work, your wit, your talent and your humanity might never have gotten to know you, all because of such blatant and misguided hatred. Your message is a powerful one for us all. I am hopeful that by sharing experiences such as yours and shining a light on this particular form a bigotry, we truly have a chance at making the world better for those who come after us.
As the proud mother of a gay son I salute you and say Thank you. No one deserves the pain you and other young gay men go through. It's time to stand up and say "Enough".
Thank you for this post, Franklin. Your strength of character shines forth in every word you wrote. The world is a better place with you in it. Glad you stayed around.
Dearest Franklin,
Thank you for your moving and uplifting story. I find it instructive that out of that repressive and repulsive environment, you emerged a strong and powerful gay man. Your parents had a lot to do with it, I'm sure, and they are mightily proud of their son. I would be, that's for sure.
I believe that with time, everything gets better. You get stronger, or more able to adapt. Your bullies are no longer in power over you. Things change and so do you.
Thank you for sharing this non-knitty piece of yourself with the world. I'm so glad things got better for you, and I hope (so, so much) that things keep getting better for everyone out there. And I really, really hope that eventually, no one will notice or care whether my 4-year-old nephew wears muddy jeans or frilly sandals to preschool. Thanks for helping make that happen.
You've made me laugh for years, so I guess it's time you made me cry as well. As an ally in this fight, I thank you for voicing this and I truly hope that some young person reads this, sees the awesome person you've become, and musters the strength to keep fighting. Cause not only does it get better, you're not alone, and not everyone is awful. Many thanks. Many.
Thank you for writing this. It is one of the most important things that people can read.
Thank you for posting this. It is truly important to keep talking about this.
You're awesome.
Although I love all your blog posts, I do not normally comment, having little constructive to offer. But I really think this should be the most-commented-upon post of all. Thank you. Your experience in high school makes mine seem pretty dull by comparison. I'm glad you survived. I pray some one kid reads what you wrote and survives also. Hang in there, kid! It really does get better.
Thank you for a wonderful post.Thank goodness you had supportive parents.
A few quotes from my Grandmother...
1. "Just what exactly are they so afraid of ?"
2.with all their blustering hatred "who are they trying to convince ?"
(that being gay is wrong)
I hope the online knitting community will be very vocal about this subject, to media and all over the internet.
Smoking is fast disappearing by public opinion, maybe bigots can be treated with the same intolerance
Bravo, Franklin, Bravo!
Ok, just deleted a long comment where I got a bit ranty about the idiot teachers and stuff, but I'll replace it with this. Bravo for your words. I hope the mongrels that spewed that crap at you at school end up with something painfully itchy and embarressing. Thank you so much for your blog.
What a wonderful message to share! Thanks.
Franklin, you are so wise.
Thank you, Franklin. Your eloquence, talents, and spirit continue to amaze me. You are an outstanding role model for the kids who need to hear your words.
{{{hugs}}} I entirely agree.
This is a simple message of support for your wise and compassionate words on a complex and important topic. Thank you! I am ... gkgreen (ravelry)
Well said, Franklin. Thank you. A very worthy addition to the "It Gets Better" movement. Have you considered doing a YouTube video version of this?
GREAT post, Franklin. Thank you for putting this out there for anyone who can read it and gain some comfort and inspiration from your experiences.
Dear Franklin
I am appalled and horrified by what you went through, and what other young men and women are experiencing.
Thank you for this post - I read your blog regularly but rarely comment. I would like to think that here in the UK no teacher would be able to get away with what was said to you (although I'm not 100% sure about that).
The UK would certainly appear, in general, to be more accepting of people's differences, although there are certain elements of 'society' that are not.
If your post has saved just one young man or woman from taking their own life then it has been more than worthwhile.
Thanks again - for being there and for being you.
BarbiW
x
Franklin - I'm so sorry and sad for the treatment that you received. Thank you for sharing your story. You are indeed a Boddhisatta.
I wonder about the dreadful Mr Roberts' own sexuality -- surrounded by all those smooth-cheeked adolescent youths. Perhaps the saddest note of the sorry tale is there.
Bless you for writing this.
Love
It seems so simple to say...can't we all get along? We have come so far from tolerance here in this country that I don't even recognize it anymore. Unfortunately, we are failing our young people...be they gay or black or Muslim or short or bald or whatever...somehow we have come to a point in society where it is not ok to be something other than a Ken doll looking Christian. Frightening.
There needs to be more Franklins in this world just to say and act "It's ok to be who you are." And life does get better...as soon as you acquire the ability to say FU to anyone who doesn't like you for who you are.
Thanks for this post Franklin.
Bravo, Franklin. You are a bright hopeful voice in this often miserable world. I'm trying to devise a way to get you to come to Vassar to create a knit along! You are needed!
Thank you for participating in "It Gets Better". I hope the chorus grows louder and drowns out those revolting groups that are trying to make political hay out of these tragedies.
Serious, yes, but it needs to be said, loudly and often. Thank you for your voice. Thank you for being you.
I am sorry you had to go through this Franklin. Lots of hugs to you and any other kid/adult who is struggling out there. There are many of us out here, straight or gay, who are fighting to get you the respect and dignity you deserve. Peace.
Once again I bow down to your elequence. These stories have haunted me lately. And truly it is not just to gay young people that this message is for, but all young people.. my children are high functioning Autistic/Asperger's and these young people are also targeted heavily for bullying because they are very different/uber geeks and tend to be very high risk for suicide. One of my oldest boys best friends tried to kill himself at 12 years of age. I continue to tell my kids that the idiots that say childhood is the best time of your life are lying, to hang on and we will get through this mess of teenagery stuff together.. no matter what. Thank you for sharing your experience and I am personally so very happy that you are still here with all of us.. I cannot imagine a world without you.
Amen, my brother. I wish I could go back to grade school, find all the administrators who thought it was a fine thing to have a kid stand up in class and ridicule them about what made them "different" and smack them. Hard. I am glad that our smart people have come forward, using the power of the internets for good, and hopefully, somewhere, some kid won't have such a bad time. Bless. Gwyn in Chicago
for all of his 6th grade year, my son was in a horrible foul FURIOUS mood. he stomped around, he bit everyone's head off. at the end of the year, he came out to me. for the entire year, he'd been wanting it NOT to be true because after all, who wants to be kicked and called names? everything rotten is "so gay" and who wants to be that? (and all this in texas, to boot.)
every time another gay kid kills himself, i'm sick for days and want to slap every small-minded person i run into.
(and p.s. it did get better for my beloved son, too.)
You are the best kind of man Franklin. Thank you for writing this.
What were your parents thinking, letting you go to that kind of school?! Did they not see you were in pain there? I'm so glad they loved and supported you, and I'm sure they did the best they knew how.... but still.
I guess as the parent of two teen-aged boys, I'd feel horrible to find out later that my sons were going through such a torturous experience and that I was blind to it.
Franklin, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. As a straight person, I'm deeply saddened and embarrassed by the behavior of your teachers and classmates. Thank you for sharing your experiences and for reaching out to the young gay community - these suicides are tragic and utterly preventable.
Love & peace,
Rosemary
Oh, man. Here I was, checking out my Google Reader for a little light reading with the baby before breakfast and found your post. Seriously though, thank you. It's easy, even with recent events, for me to look at the LGBT people I know, all of whom are happily married (this is MA) or in committed relationships and say that it isn't bad, that things have changed. I taught high school, and heard lots of comments by kids, but there was at least an awareness that what they were saying was wrong. And I don't think I ever heard a derogatory comment made to someone who was actually gay/questioning. The amazing teacher who led the school's GSA club certainly helped with that. It's important to remember that not all schools and teachers are as supportive or caring and there are kids and adults out there who are hurting. Thank you.
Thank you for your very powerful words. As a Christian, I'm heartsick over the hate of some. I'm heartsick that people can get a message so completely wrong. I'm heartsick that those misguided hateful people come to paint to image of what I believe -- you know, that God is Love and no one gets to judge others and ultimately, there is a God and I'm not Him.
I love you -- and I mean that. I love that you write so well and hope that your words will help anyone who struggles with who they are when surrounded by those who don't (and won't) understand.
I wish I could go back to the teen Franklin and show you that those people are/were so wrong. I wish I could give you the contrast to that horrible 2 years (and the years later while purging that bile). But since time travel isn't possible, I will promise you, my friend, that I'll do my part:
1. I'll continue to share my understanding of truth that includes love and not hate.
2. I'll raise my son (who is 7 now and will someday, God help us all, be a teen) to love and accept all those of his age. I'll teach him that we are all people first, created by God, in His image, and declared good. By the simplest logic -- to be cruel to one of God's creation is to be cruel to God Himself.
There is no good way to end this comment, but to say that I love you -- I tell people that you are my secret boyfriend, so secret you don't even know you like this one girl. But the truth of the matter is, I think the world is a bit happier; a bit better off; and a bit more fun because you walk on it!
I cried when I read this post. There have been years of people being deprived of who they are because of the rules society has let them to believe. My mother is gay, she married a man that she did not love so that she could move out of her catholic parents home. She left my dad when she was 45, secretly for a woman. She is now 62 and has been in a relationship for several years and still continues to hide who she is from her parents in fear of dissapointing them. My sibilings and I are constantly re-assuring her that it's ok to love who you love. I always try to believe that our society has changed and that the generations to come will not have to deny who they are. Thank you Franklin for speaking out, one voice at a time we can change the world.
I love you Franklin Habit. Really I do. Thank you for this. I cried. A lot. I'm not a poor, confused, tortured teen, but I have been there too. You are right; it does get better. It gets wonderful sometimes. I am a teacher now and I heard a teacher at a meeting of writing teachers talk about journal writing. It was all good until she talked about the things that could come out in the writing that were dangerous. This is what she said: You have to be careful and tell them not to write what they wouldn't want everyone to know. If you get a trouble kid, or GOD FORBID someone who is discovering he's gay, you'll have trouble.
Yes, God Forbid he's strugglig with being gay because she wouldn't help him, hear his voice, or give a damn about his struggle. That's what she implied to me as a fellow teacher. The horror of this story is that she's been a teacher for over 25 years and is STILL in the classroom! This insidious hate is learned through little actions, little comments, and it's everywhere.
Isn't it arrogant of "Christians" to think that God makes mistakes? Missed that section on the Golden Rule? If we could end hypocrisy...
Thank you for sharing, and thank you for your work. My days are happier because of your illustrations and words.
I looked at the end of this post for the "love(1)" button. (Ravelry too much?) Thank you!
Thank you
Well said. Life does get better and it's hard to believe that as a kid. What I worry about is that America does not always seem to be getting better.
Amen and blessings, Franklin. And for anyone who is troubled and looking for reassurance, it really does get better, whether you're gay or, like me, from an abusive background. It does get get better.
(((((((((((hugs))))))))))) to you Franklin and to everyone else out there who is hurting
I'm so so sorry xxxxxxxx
I almost cried. Hopefully someone who needs this reads it. I have family members who are probably emotionally damaged right now due to being gay and having been raised mormon. It is a sad world sometimes.
Hi Franklin,
I love you!! Thank you for being the person you are and bringing joy, hope and humor to so many.
KatDee99
I have no other words than "thank you".
Franklin - Thank you for the words that you wrote. I know that any young person that reads your post will be moved and helped. Please continue to use your experiences to help others. You are what the world needs.
Hey Franklin - i'm totally in your boat. (not to the same historical experiences, but similar)
I used to run an LGBT Helpline that was staffed by volunteers.
thanks for bringing the attention to the knitting masses. :)
I love showing my middle-school students you and your blog when they say "boys don't knit!"
Thank you, I'll do my part to spread around the news: it gets better.
Thank you so much for sharing this very personal account of your experience. Thank you for having the courage to share AND to continue on and for being a voice for this important effort.
There is far too much hatred in this world, and if this effort can open more people's eyes to acceptance and tolerance, we'll all be better off.
Through your words and life, you prove over and over that it does get better.
Bravo to you!
Great post. It's not just gay youth who suffer from discrimination and bullying though - it's also youth who are perceived to be gay, whether they actually are or not.
What a beautiful post. Thank you for sharing that.
My friend Terra has a six year old son named Zach. Terra believes that no matter what, Zach should have a happy childhood. Whether he wants to paint his fingernails, twirl a baton, or play with his pet rats she supports the person he is meant to be. He may grow up to be gay or he may not but at least he will not be shamed into living a lie.
I went through the same gay issues as Franklin and it does get better, but at the time it was such a lonely place to be.
AMEN
Thank you, from a mom who doesn't want to see anybody's kid hurt.
As a big sister who watched her youngest sister struggle with this very thing I thank you. When she came out to my parents in high school they were very supportive, but it didn't stop others from ridiculing her and her scars from cutting herself are permanent evidence of how painful it was for her to just be herself. I don't want anyone to ever have to hurt inside like that. And people who hurt others because of their sexuality are coming from a dark place, full of hate and fear.
I'm sorry about what you went through. And I'm sorry to every member of the LGBT community who has to deal with people who spew hate. I hope one day we will live in a world where we won't hear stories like Tyler's ever again.
I heart you Franklin. You are an amazing brave soul. Thank you.
Beautiful post.
Thank you for this post. I'm struggling with making my nephew understand that high school is a phase to live through, not a destination.
Kid, if you read this far, I hope you're hearing in these comments how many people are on your side - even if you haven't found them yet. Some of them people you'd probably never expect. Some day you may find yourself living next door to a married, thirty-something, mother who heads to church several times a week (a church where you'd be welcome, though it may take you awhile to realize that). And it may turn out that she loves you, enjoys spending time together, appreciates your unending willingness to dog sit and melts at your adoration of her new baby. (And weeps grateful tears when you use your skills, honed on nieces and nephews, to give an exhausted Mama a break.) Or you may be the friend she and her husband met at a political event and instantly connected with. Or maybe you will be the wonderful assistant who not only became indispensable to her at work, but a friend beside whom she proudly marched when the times called for it. Or... the list goes on. There are lots of us out here who hope you hang in there and become a kick ass adult, because we will value your friendship and gladly give you ours.
Another lurker who loves you. Rock on, Franklin.
Franklin, Thank you for this very moving post. I read it last night, had my husband read it, and needed the evening to process.
I understand first-hand the power of hateful words. I was the freak kid in HS with a leg brace and crutches. It truly does get better. I am sorry for your pain, Tyler's and all the children who feel that there is no way out. We need to teach acceptance of all people. Thank you for your powerful words.
Franklin's deeply moving post, and the many comments above, all express wisdom, empathy and compassion.
So who are these vile, screwed-up people who glory in inflicting suffering on those whom they decree to be 'unnatural'? How do they get that way, deriving perverted pleasure and satisfaction from abusing those who are different from themselves?
It is extremely depressing. I am old enough to have seen a huge change for the better in social attitudes towards homosexuality since the 1950s, but even in our 'civilised' countries, there are far too many people who are still living with a medieval mind-set on that (and some other) social issues.
Thank you Franklin. Written from the heart.
thank you Franklin...I hope everybody out there gets to read this and take comfort in your words.
kathy
Beautiful post. Thank you. It is every bit as beautiful as the gorgous sweaters.
And don't forget, knitters have two weapons handy just in case it comes down to defending oneself.
I'm in tears...thank you for your wonderful post. It really does get better :)
Bless you Franklin
Great post! I do think it gets better as you age. I started seeing my hairdresser 20 years ago and in the small town we lived in he seemed to not fit in. He was shy and quiet. 20 years later he's opened two shops in the larger but small city down the road. For the most part he's happy but would be happier if he could meet that special someone.
I think society is becoming more accepting but it is distressing to hear gay bullying still exists. And even more distressing the results of this. I had thought young people were much more accepting than people of my generation.
I can't seem to find the right words.
Thank you. You're right. Bless you.
I'm normally a lurker but I had to come out and tell you what a great blog post this is (I'm sure it wasn't the easiest thing to write but thank you!). I'm sorry that you or anyone else would ever have to hear such awful things.
Excellent post, Franklin. I lost a dear friend years ago, because his parents were like your teacher. I mourn him to this day.
Thank you for being you.
(((hugs)))
Brilliant. You are wonderful. That is all.
So well said. Franklin, the world would be such a vastly poorer and less interesting place without you. It feels like we as a culture have lost our basic respect and appreciation for one another as human beings, but words like yours are reason for hope.
Like so many others, there were tears in my eyes as I read this.
It can be a harsh world in which to be "different" in any way. You are right. Things do get better. We grow , we learn, and so long as we survive we arrive eventually in a world where "different" is actually quite interesting and a thing to be proud of.
Me? I'd hate to be common or ordinary :-)
I am just sad that much of my difference these days is in my scarring.
Keep on telling it like it is.
Thank you for being part of the chorus of voices that are stepping up, and letting kids and people isolated everywhere that there can be a better life out there. When I read about Dan starting the "It Gets Better Project" I thought it was a great idea and hoped a few people join in.
Going to the project's site and watching the 1000s of videos that people have made is a huge inspiration.
I really want to click your love (1) button. Thank you for the great post, and /hugs from a complete stranger who thinks the world of you.
Thank you, Franklin.
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you, thank you, and thank you.
-- Gretchen
Franklin, I wish all people could be as well-spoken, and open-minded, and open-hearted as you are.
And even more, I wish all good people with these traits had the strength and courage to stand up as you have and support our youth.
Thank you for offering these words! So often our stories go unshared and the loneliness only grows. I admire your bravery in sharing your story.
Thank you for posting this. I can only hope that it does help someone someday.
I went to a Catholic school too, and while I never saw anything there that sounds as bad as what you experienced, it was appalling to me some of the crap they spewed towards the gay community. I can't even imagine how it felt to have that actually directed at you.
Speaking as a former bullied kid, I can say that it absolutely does get better, when you move on into the bigger world and can find the tribe that you fit into. SO much better, you can't even believe it.
I'm glad you were able to escape their poison and become the interesting and charming man that you are. The world is better for having you in it.
So much love
So, how do we go about eradicating the fear that is at the core of the problem? ALL bullying and prejudice arises from fear.
But fear of what, exactly? And, until we figure out what there is to fear, we shall continue to spread fear from generation to generation.
Thank you for sharing your experiences, and helping to eradicate fear.
MBelford
I know my brother. His words do not surprise me (though I profoundly appreciate them, and him). In fact, I read this post and nodded a lot, proud of the person he is (and always has been to me--an ally, a friend, and a mentor). What made me cry (in a good way) was the outpouring of kindness and good wishes and thanks in the comments. It's so nice to see so many people love one of the people I love best! Thanks to all of you.
Well said Franklin, I'm glad you did.
Thankyou, Franklin. For the post and for sticking around to write it, as well as for being who you are. I'm glad to have the chance, especially now, as a mother, to ensure that it does indeed get better, day after day.
I read this and cried a bit. Thanks.
So eloquently stated. Thank you!
Rock on Franklin!
So many commenters have said what I'd have said -- and yet I can't shut up.
Thank you: thank you for saying that right out loud here on a popular blog; thank you for sticking with us despite the horrific emotional abuse you received; thank you for all the joy you bring every day -- and thus thank you for turning that shit into fertilizer in to wonderful creativity.
I join the ranks of the many who love you.
I'm sorry, but thank you. Well said and Amen!
the teenage years are hard enough to survive even without this sort of intolerable cruelty. every time I hear a horror story involving abuse of young gays, I want to shout out to each and every lonely unhappy gay youngster out there, "YOU ARE NOT A WRONG PERSON! THEY ARE THE DEFORMITIES OF NATURE, NOT YOU!" Those who willingly cause unbearable pain to youngsters with differences, particularly the adults in a position of authority, are the ones who should not be tolerated by society. Keep shining your light, Franklin. Your voice reaches so many.
Oh -- and one more thing...
How is it that all of those catholic priests/Christian brothers could condemn the boys in their classes with diatribes against "pansies" and "faggots" and then take them into their offices, ask them to drop their pants so that they could spank them with brushes, or sexually molest them... all in the same day? Were they trying to punish themselves?
(I know that there were and are many wonderful, loving, kind, supportive, amazing Catholic priests teaching kids, but there seem to have been a shocking number who well.... weren't)
It is so sad that we cannot just love one another and be done with it.
It is so sad that we cannot just love one another and be done with it.
Franklin -- I love you for writing this! Thank you!
Franklin, you humble me and you break my heart. Thanks for this.
It is always difficult to realize that adults in this world can be wrong when one is a kid seeking guidance.
Thank you for sharing with those seeking kids your informed opinion.
growing up is hard enough, without the verbal and emotional abuse because of sexual orientation!!
Thank you for surviving, and for speaking out.
Love ya Franklin!!
Thank you for reminding me that, just when I am completely fed up with the horrible things that human do to one another, as an adult I get to pick which humans I let into my life. You are a reminder that there are other good ones out there.
I'm lost for adequate words - your eloquence says it all. Bravo! (and you made me cry dammit!)
Bravo! This is why we all love you so very much.
You reckon Mr. Roberts was in the closet himself? That asshole!
I am sure there are many who will find hope in your post. I'm sorry you had to experience such shameful behavior--especially from authority figures--but the strength you gained will benefit others.
You brought back my school days with amazing clarity. I have never actually shared about it in that depth because I really didn't think I would be believed. Suicide was more than once suggested as an option for me. One priest actually said that Jesus would forgive me for killing myself but not living the life of a pervert.
Thankfully for me, I recovered from all this and I have a very good life and a 30 year marriage to another man. Back then I did not believe that life could be good.
Funny thing, timing. I just read your wonderful post as I get ready to go out and party at a PANN event,() here in the Netherlands. They are a group who support and promote young people coming out and integrating in society. There cannot be enough of such organisations.
I attended a private Catholic girls school in Australia, and it was a long road to get to where I am now. As a no-longer young person, very comfortable now with my bisexuality, I add my voice to the concept of 'It gets better'. Indeed it does.
Franklin, If you had a love button on your blog I would be pushing it.
Thank you, Franklin.
Oh, Franklin... I am moved. YES, YES, YES to everything you say, especially to the amazing handknitted scarf. NO, NO, NO to the thought that this is the way things must be.
love(is love)
::hugs::
Thank you Franklin! You are my Hero!
There will be a vigil tonight (Oct 8) at DePaul - details are on yelp.
Franklin, thank you.
Franklin,
Thank you.
Thank you for being you, for being strong enough to be a voice for all those who are still finding theirs and those who have been silenced forever.
I unknowingly watched my Godfather die of complications from HIV/AIDS in the early days before the really good drug cocktails came about. He had the "flu" and stayed in the closet until after his death. Only then did he allow our pastor to tell us what really happened and who he really was. It broke my heart and has stayed with me.
I wish he was still here so I could tell him being gay would not have changed a thing with my nuclear family. We had a pretty good feeling that he was and it didn't matter. He shouldn't have died alone. I wish he would not have felt like he had to.
I know that having an illness is not the same as taking oneself out of picture. However, no one deserves to feel so much hate that they can not live being who they are.
The world is a better place because you walk in it, Franklin.
Thank you, Franklin. Your post, and others like it, give me hope that our country has not run completely off the rails.
Thank you, Franklin, for adding your voice to so many others. You are a gift to the world of knitters, and you speak from your heart in such a powerful and genuine way.
The irony, of course, is that the abuse was taking place in a school named after a man whose life was devoted to kindness to outcasts.
Thank you for saying this; I believe that it can't be said enough. What you went through is just surreal; I can't conceive of how terrible it must have been.
I can only hope that some good comes out of the tragic incident at Rutgers.
Amazing post, Franklin. Thank goodness you didn't let them defeat you.
Beautiful post! To claim that a gay person is a mistake is the blasphemy. God makes no mistakes.
Thanks for being so brave, you have been a source of laughter and inspiration to me and many others.
Shine on!!
As one human being to another, thank you for this post. Life it too short & precious for any type of intolerance & institutionalized bigotry is the very worst of all.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and your pain. Thank you for being brave enough to directly call out those who allowed it to happen. And thank you for echoing the message, It Gets Better.
I, too, am living proof that life gets better after school bullies, after getting older, after struggling against those who would hold one down.
Franklin, your post if powerful and moving. Thank you for writing this. You are an amazing person, and undoubtedly your message will empower and help someone, somewhere.
Oh, thank you! I just can't tell you how much I appreciate your courage and your honesty. Thank you for being here.
Thank you, thank you for sharing and making people aware. Thank you for being a strong enough man to push through the harsh words and hate. I have many strong men like you in my life and I hope they know how imporatant they are to me. You have made me want to remind them. Thank you.
I'm glad you made it through. I wish it hadn't required so much. It never should have.
I'm trying to figure out how to direct attention to this, so the value of your post expands exponentially.
The archbishop here just got an anonymous donor to fund an DVD, against even civil unions, mailing it to all registered catholic households. A wonderful women is collecting them to create a work of art, to try to do something to change hurt to healing. She was fired for it but is carrying on. One group is collecting them to return and encouraging donations to causes that we should be spending energy on. If we all speak up, maybe it will get better faster. At least youth hurt by adult behavior could see some adults working on their side.
My work verification is mench, close to the mensch you are.
Thank you, thank you. Your comments and those who have commented on them need no further ones from me. You all have said it all. Love, Sarah
Thank you for posting and sharing your experience for all the web to see. Very well said. Thank you.
Thank you for your eloquent post. i am terribly sorry for the hurt inflicted upon you by those morons. I hope they learn tolerance someday.unceshot |
Dec 10 2012
Black Mascara Tears, or Why I Love Nashville.?
1
Susan On Monday, December 10 at 5:49 am
I am so, so glad there is another Nasheville fan out there! Each week I wait to watch it, afraid that is will not be picked up when this season ends! I loved Connie B. in Friday Night Lights and she is great in this role! Of course it does not hurt the eyes to watch all those gorgeous guys!!!!
I think Scarlett just needs to get over herself….and yes, I am so jealous of Rayna’s hair!!!
holdshipgirl On Monday, December 10 at 3:22 pm
I couldn’t agree more!
Jackie P On Monday, December 10 at 7:42 pm
Couldn’t agree more — all of the music is wonderful, the actors are great, the story line is fun…my favorite show this season!
2
Kelly O On Monday, December 10 at 6:04 am
Of course I want Tami Taylor, erm… I mean Rayna’s hair.
3
Amanda On Monday, December 10 at 6:13 am
I LOVE this show, too!!! So glad there are other “Nashville” fans out there with me! I’ve downloaded all of the music on my I Pod. And, Connie Britton–she’s perfection!
4
Lynne Baker On Monday, December 10 at 6:23 am
I love this show as well!! I am so into Scarlett’s voice, what a sweet thing. Makes me think of Allison Kraus, who I adore. Connie Britten is a powerhouse and I am hoping she earns an Emmy nom for this show.
Oh and Kimberly Williams-Paisley, can’t forget her. I hope the writers don’t kill her off, she could really throw a monkey wrench into Rhayna’s life!!
Kellie t On Monday, December 10 at 2:15 pm
Did you know in real life she is Australian? Her “southern accent” reminds me of Loretta Lynn.
Lynn On Tuesday, December 11 at 2:05 am
Kellie, her accent makes me think of Dolly!
Patti Rabbit On Tuesday, December 11 at 11:25 am
I love to hear Scarlett sing, though.
5
Betsy in Texas On Monday, December 10 at 6:24 am
I love this show so much! And I completely agree about Avery…his plotline was pretty predictable. The music is incredible and I really hope this show doesn’t go the way of every other show I profess my love for and get cancelled. I’ve been getting my double dose of Connie Britton lately by watching reruns of Friday Night Lights on ESPN Classic.
6
mesokla On Monday, December 10 at 6:28 am
Love Love this show, and the music is great, and for scarlett, she drives me nuts too. its her voice, can’t waite til it comes back on Janunary the 9th, same time, can’t waite.
Cici On Monday, December 10 at 3:03 pm
I cringe every time Scarlett comes on the screen. She’s dopey.
7
Judy S On Monday, December 10 at 7:09 am
I love this show too. Scarlett does drive me nuts have Avery. Love, love love Deacon
8
lisa in ontario On Monday, December 10 at 7:20 am
Love it! Best new show on this season…
9
carolyn milani On Monday, December 10 at 7:39 am
This is by FAR my new favorite show!!!! Like you said, the characters are so complex, I just love it!!!
10
Kathy On Monday, December 10 at 7:40 am
You voiced a lot of my thoughts about this show. My husband and I usually watch the shows we like off DVR. I love this show, and my husband surprised me the other day when he wanted to watch a second episode to see what happened! I really like that it’s the actors (or most of them) that are singing the songs!
11
KT On Monday, December 10 at 7:43 am
Love Nashville!!!!
The storyline with Scarlett & Gunnar is my favorite! I could do with a little less drama with Rayna & her family…seems a bit unrealistic the way she comes off as so selfish. ut looking forward to January!
12
Katie E On Monday, December 10 at 7:48 am
Oh, I agree! I was most excited about this show going into the fall TV season, and I love it so much. I’m not a country music fan, so it surprises me how much I enjoy the music. I do find Scarlett a bit whiny, but I like her and Gunner – especially their music. Avery could just go away and I wouldn’t miss him at all. I don’t think we need his story now really. (He just makes me think of when he was Lucky on General Hospital anyway.) I love Deacon.
Liz On Thursday, December 13 at 12:44 pm
I love that someone else called out that all they could think of was Lucky when they see Avery. I was hoping to like his character because I loved him as Lucky but blah, his story line stinks.
13
KristiP On Monday, December 10 at 7:54 am
This show is my guilty pleasure! And I love calling one of my best friends who lives in another state so we can chat about whose hair was best, when Avery’s going to disappear already, etc. I’m interested to see how Deacon going on tour develops — hoping he won’t be an infrequent story line!
14
WebSavvyMom On Monday, December 10 at 7:58 am
–>I really enjoy the show too. It’s like the 2012 version of Dallas but in Nashville. I like how the songs fit into the show like members of the supporting cast.
Scarlett needs to find her backbone. Her deer in the headlights, I’m so sweet and I don’t know what’s going on needs to end soon.
Love Deacon, Rayna and Juliette…. although the whole shoplifting thing seemed a little random as well as her mother staying with her before going to rehab.
Kimberly/OKC On Wednesday, December 12 at 10:43 am
But if her mother hadn’t stayed with her and subsequently made that awful pasta casserole that Juliette said she’d never eat then that scene where she is eating it with a fork right out of the serving dish wouldn’t have happened and that scene is where I really fell for Juliette. It made her into such a complicated character and one you also felt sorry for along with hating her at times and loving her at times. No matter who our mothers are…or what they have ever done to us or not done for us, we love our mothers and are desperate for them to love us. I also loved her when she and Deacon wrote that song together which showed how deeply she actually loves country music tho the songs she has recorded hasn’t always shown much but a surface love for singing and making money.
Sheesh, I might be too into this show…
15
Sheri On Monday, December 10 at 8:01 am
I love, love, LOVE this show. I’m waiting for Scarlett to come into her own. I’ve also downloaded a ton of the songs, but where or where is the duet, “Wrong Song”? I can’t wait to listen to that one over and over and over!
16
Carol SD On Monday, December 10 at 8:07 am
Love this show too! The music is the best part. Scarlett is absolutely my favorite vocalist and a very pretty girl. Her boyfriend, …just icky and wimpy. So very lame. Dump him from the show, please. Deacon is believable and the whole show is entertaining. I was set to be disappointed, but found myself looking forward to it week after week. Can’t wait for its return in January.
17
Lake Girl On Monday, December 10 at 8:08 am
Every time I watch it I think, “I wonder what their hair extension budget is?” I am mesmerized by Rayna’s , Juliet’s, and Scarlett’s hair.
MaryB On Monday, December 31 at 6:53 pm
Ok, now that was funny!
18
Kristen Norby On Monday, December 10 at 8:18 am
I feel the same way about Connie! I felt that our friendship started with Friday Night Lights and has gotten stronger with Nashville. I adore this show and hope it lasts for a long time!
Donna H. On Thursday, December 13 at 11:57 pm
Amen, sister! I loved FNL and never missed an episode! I thought I was going to “check myself in” after the show ended, but somehow I survived
Love Connie in this show and can’t wait until January to see what happens. Let’s all say a little prayer that they don’t cancel it!
19
Sherry On Monday, December 10 at 8:28 am
Are you in my head? I agree on all points, especially Scarlet – get it together girl, you can sing because you want to not just because someone is begging you to do it.
20
Nareht On Monday, December 10 at 8:32 am
I too love this show!. I have loved Connie Britton since Friday Night Lights. The whole cast is excellent.
Have a good one!
Nareht
21
L Haines On Monday, December 10 at 8:35 am
I LOVE THIS SHOW! Have not missed a show yet!!!
22
Melissa On Monday, December 10 at 8:38 am
I’m a huge fan too, although I came across Connie Britton in American Horror Story last season. Good to know that there are other tv addicts such as myself. Keep up the reviews!
23
Amy On Monday, December 10 at 8:39 am
I’m glad I’m not alone in my new guilty pleasure. The only reason I say “guilty” is because it slightly reminds me of “Dallas” and it always made me feel like I was kinda being bad watching “Dallas” as a young thang. But I am smitten with “Nashville.”
I have to agree with Scarlett being wimpy. Although she and her co-songwriter fella (and fellow Aussie) do steal the show in the tunes department in my book. Hopefully she’ll grow up soon to match the strength of her voice.
Amy On Tuesday, December 11 at 6:16 am
Whoops! Scarlett and her co-writer are not both from Australia. Gunnar is Bristish. Should’ve done my homework before assuming I caught the correct accent. Anyway, they’re both NOT from the south.
24
Lori On Monday, December 10 at 8:40 am
I love this show! Can’t wait for it and Scandal to come on every week. I feel the same way about Scarlet, but I would rather have Rayna’s legs than her hair!
25
ElizabethB On Monday, December 10 at 8:41 am
I love this show! They finally put a CD together which is available on Amazon.
Lisa On Tuesday, December 11 at 12:25 pm
I read that if you get the CD from Target, it has bonus tracks.
26
JSmithRanch On Monday, December 10 at 8:46 am
I love this show……..no wait I AM OBSSESSED with this show……….if they don’t keep going with this show i am going to be so mad……i loved Friday Night Lights then they took it off and now i can’t wait for Weds..nights i have it set to record just in case something MAJOR is happening and i cant watch but it has to be a life or death sistuation other wise i am in front of the t.v. for hours….waiting till it comes on.
27
AZAnnette On Monday, December 10 at 8:49 am
Love, love, love this show! I agree with your thoughts on the characters totally. I am also glad I have an ally in Scarlett not being my favorite character. I like strong female roles and she is so meek and mild, it drives me crazy. I really try to be forgiving, but come on “grow some balls” (even though, that’s impossible0!!! I thought I would dislike Juliet Barnes, but also find myself rooting for her, it is a love/hate kind of thing. Connie Britton is my absolute favorite, I fell in love with her on American Horror Story last year. I miss her on this season of the show, but she makes Nashville! Look so forward to Wednesday nights now:)
28
Whitney On Monday, December 10 at 9:06 am
I too, adore this show!
1. Lamar Wyatt reminds me of Roger Penske. I don’t know…..weird, right? I don’t KNOW Mr. Penske, but I feel like the sleazy ways of Lamar Wyatt could influence my feelings about Mr. Penske. I must resist.
2. Scarlett’s voice reminds me of a famous singer, and I can’t put my finger on who! I don’t think she drives me nuts……but she’s a little too passive for my liking.
3. I’m THRILLED that it’s coming back for a second season. I usually watch the episodes on a weekend day ‘on demand’…..as I started working my way through the season (read-addicted), I was worried it wouldn’t get picked up for a second season.
4. Not only does Rayna have fabulous hair…her clothes? I. Die.
Lynn On Tuesday, December 11 at 2:08 am
Dolly Parton? A little?
Agnes On Thursday, December 13 at 8:33 am
Allison Kraus
29
Cheryl On Monday, December 10 at 9:16 am
All the above, lol.
30
Sonya On Monday, December 10 at 9:17 am
Love this show. Love Connie Britton. LOVE her hair. I actually like Scarlett (who also happens to have amazing hair). I agree that she’s a bit wimpy. I’m hoping they will develop her character more. And hopefully we’ll see less and less Avery. My favorite part of the show is when Scarlett and Gunnar perform together. Beautiful music. I never figured I’d be a fan of this show because I’ve never been a country music fan, but I never miss an episode. Even my husband is hooked (I also think this is related to Connie Britton).
31
Donna Tomasello On Monday, December 10 at 9:17 am
It’s one of my favorites. I have been surprised at how good both Connie and Hayden sing, Thought they may just lipsync to tunes, but believe that is their real voices – very impressive. Love the cast, the story line, the actors, and the city of Nashville! Am always looking forward to Wednesday nights.
32
Laurie in WV On Monday, December 10 at 9:18 am
LOVE this show!!
I love how the music is such a part of the show that it’s not sappy. I was worried it would be a little to “musical” for me. Don’t get me wrong, I love Broadway, but didn’t want a sappy country musical. I love how the songs fit into the story and actually become the story.
I really want to root for Rayna and her husband to work things out and I really want for them to stay married. BUT, the chemistry between Deacon and Rayna is insane! How can they stand it!!??!!
I find myself rooting for Juliet, even though she gets on my nerves…grow up already.
I wonder if Scarlett is as innocent as she appears or if it’s an act? I go between loving her and wanting to smack her all in the same scene. Although, her voice is amazing, especially blended with Gunner’s!
Don’t like Avery…even though I’ve been a fan of Jonathan Jackson since way back when on General Hospital.
sandy On Thursday, December 27 at 5:44 pm
I seriously think Scarlett is holding back and is going to surprise us all later on…..Uncle Deacon is trying to help her get a backbone, remember…..I do find it comical that Rayna was all over her hubby when she thought he had an affair during the political race with Kimberly Paisley but it was ok for her to have had an affair with Deacon…..loving this show…..it’s the music, it’s so new and fun to watch…..way better than Dallas ever was….has so many levels…..
33
Megan On Monday, December 10 at 9:19 am
I absolutely love this show. In my house its second only to Once Upon A Time!
Lynne Baker On Monday, December 10 at 1:16 pm
Ditto!!
34
Stephanie F. On Monday, December 10 at 9:22 am
I agree that so far Scarlett has been annoying in a needy, whiney way, but I think she is starting to come into her own (or so i hope). I love her and Gunner’s version of “If I Didn’t Know Better” better than the original version sang by The Civil Wars.
35
Tina D. On Monday, December 10 at 9:24 am
I also love this show! I wasn’t sure the first few episodes but, it has grown on me.
36
traci On Monday, December 10 at 9:25 am
I love this show. I loved Connie on friday night lights and I love her in this show too!
37
Sherry C. On Monday, December 10 at 9:28 am
Ahhhh, I’m so glad you wrote about Nashville! I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said but I must say…..my stomach turns a bit knowing that Juliette is asking her new beau to marry her clearly to prove to his mother that she’s going to win. But I’m with you – love the show yet some things drive me batty but I love that there’s so many stories going on in just one show. This one ranks right up there with Person of Interest for me! : )
38
ileen in houston On Monday, December 10 at 9:28 am
Really enjoy the show, love Connie and the music is really good. Hope they don’t get too smaltzy!
39
Ann in Nashville On Monday, December 10 at 9:29 am
So glad to hear so many love this show! It is such fun to live here and run into them filming all over town. Keep watching it! I agree Scarlett needs to get a backbone. Rayna is my favorite. And Deacon is gorgeous.
40
Nancy Beckham On Monday, December 10 at 9:30 am
Love this show. Deacon is the perfect example of why women lose their minds over musicians, just by watching them play. i loved Jonathan Jackson as Lucky on General Hospital and I think he has the talent to let the writers develop Avery in either direction: a blazing crash or increasing maturity. I hope he won’t be a throw away character. The music is such a pleasant surprise–way better than I would have guessed, especially Gunnar and Scarlett. How will be wait until the next season?
41
Diane Whelan On Monday, December 10 at 9:31 am
I LOVE the show too!! Loved Connie Britton in Friday Night Lights and was so sad when they cancelled it. And I agree, can’t stand Scarlett either. Way too whiny.
42
Linea On Monday, December 10 at 9:32 am
Nashville is my hometown! Scarlett’s accent is a disgrace to the south, I can’t watch.
43
Erin Seaman On Monday, December 10 at 9:32 am
Yes, another fan! Love the music, although, really don’t think Rayna’s voice is all that. One of the things they’ve done best, I think, is to not make the characters cookie-cutter, one dimensional, easy to read. I love Reyna’s husband for example. You kinda don’t want to like him, but end up rooting for them to work it out. Crazy. And Juliet, too, you end up feeling sorry for her while wanting to shake her for stupid life choices. One of my favorites for sure!
44
Mimi and Butterbean On Monday, December 10 at 9:34 am
Charles Esten (Deacon) was formerly on Whose Line Is It Anyway? He went by “Chip” back then.
elizabeth s. On Monday, December 10 at 10:52 am
Yes! We loved him on Whose Line is it Anyway! And, it took me a few episodes of Nashville to figure out where I had seen him. (My son thought he was Jim Carey!)
He’s done a great job on the show–perfect casting!
Adore Connie Britton!! Always have.
Very much a fan of the show,
E.
KieRae On Tuesday, December 11 at 1:21 pm
Depending on if he’s doing stand up or acting, he changes his first name.
45
Kristy Newman On Monday, December 10 at 9:39 am
I would love to have Rayna’s hair and also the rest of her body too!
46
Vanessa On Monday, December 10 at 9:42 am
I’m totally completely hooked. I don’t mind Scarlett so much now because I feel she is coming around and learning how to live life on her own. But early on she was pretty sad. I suppose that is what is so great about her character though, she has a LOT of room to grow and develop.
Rayna’s hair = 2 thumbs up. She is beautiful.
47
Violet On Monday, December 10 at 9:42 am
Love it!!
I agree with every single thing you said, Big Mama. Aside from Scarlett and Avery, my only criticism is that Hayden doesn’t open her mouth when she sings. It drives me CRAZY!
You are spot on about Deacon. He is completely male without being a boor and incredibly good-looking without being pretty.
Nashville and Parenthood are the only shows I watch without fail.
Donna H On Friday, December 14 at 12:06 am
I am sooo with you on these two shows! I am also kinda into “Scandal” … is anyone else watching that??
48
cooperb3 On Monday, December 10 at 9:47 am
Connie Britton can do no wrong. She is sassy and feisty and I want to be just like her.
As far as Scarlett goes, I would absolutely miss her if she was gone from the show because I adore her voice…but seriously? I NEED her to quit walking around on the verge of tears all the time. Put on your big girl boots and quit crying. Oh, and give Gunnar a chance. He loves you.
49
Lynn J On Monday, December 10 at 9:55 am
I love this show! i was not sure at first but I kept watching and now I am hooked. I love the music and characters.
50
angie r On Monday, December 10 at 9:56 am
I love, love Nashville!! I love a tv show with music and it’s so fun to see the Nashville culture!
51
Mel On Monday, December 10 at 9:56 am
I love it too and living and working in Nashville I thought I wouldn’t. I had the opportunity to interview most of the cast and they are class acts, everyone of them. Plus Deacon, I mean, Charles, made me blush a dozen times. I could not maintain focus. Scarlett is one of my favorites( I didn’t get to interview her though…her voice is amazing as is Sam’s especially on “If I Didn’t Know Better.” I also love Undermine, my friend Natalie Hemby co-wrote. I am so proud of this town and this production so far. All class acts from cast to crew! They are the real deal. I am so glad to see other people like it too! YAY!
Linea On Monday, December 10 at 4:26 pm
Natalie Hemby is amazing! Saw her at a songwriters showcase at the Ryman last winter:)
Mel On Tuesday, December 11 at 11:21 am
Yes, Linea. She is something special and that is the best way to see her.
52
Christina F On Monday, December 10 at 10:01 am
I agree with you about Scarlet but I’m not sure Avery isn’t going to turn around in this.
53
jen On Monday, December 10 at 10:09 am
I couldnt agree with this post more! I am loving the show! And if you and Connie trade hair tips could you please please share them with us? I am obsessed with her hair, I have red, wavy, long hair, and it never looks as good as hers (or yours)!!
54
danice On Monday, December 10 at 10:10 am
I LOVE LOVE LOVE this show!!!!! For all the reasons you mentioned…I do think Scarlett is a bit whiny but I think her story line adds to the dimension and I can’t wait to see how they all intersect as it continues.
55
Michaela On Monday, December 10 at 10:13 am
Scarlett is a little wimpy, but the chemistry between her and Gunnar practically pours out of the TV. The screen was practically steaming up when they sang “If I didn’t know better”.
helen On Monday, December 10 at 10:51 am
Amen and amen. I downloaded that song right away… and I’m not a country fan! And I agree, Scarlett does need to put on her big-girl panties and quit being such a victim to life.
56
Poohla On Monday, December 10 at 10:14 am
I do live this show, and have to agree about Scarlett. Her “doe in the headlights” look is rather annoying. She sings well enough, but her pouty look and emotionless face sets my jaw…
Hayden Panettierre can do that “lock lip grimace” really great. After looking her up on Google, I realized she was in Clash of the Titans and loved her in that show.
57
Kerry On Monday, December 10 at 10:17 am
Big Mama, I have to admit that while I had made a mental note that the commercials for Nashville sounded like a show I would like to watch (not that living two hours south of Nashville had ANYthing to do with it), it was a blog on your page that actually had me tuning in in time for Episode 2. And I concur with everything you said above! I have now DVR’d and watched every show and LOVE it! Scarlet can sing really well, but I can’t figure out how she actually talks. Does she even say complete words? And they just shoot out of her mouth like bullets or something. Maybe it’s just because I’m 46 and old, but I seem to have a delayed understanding whenever she talks. On another note, all my friends in Nashville thought it was hilarious when Juliette Barnes made her video climbing around on the naked people sculpture. Evidently the locals are embarrassed by it and don’t understand who decided placing a group of naked people running around in the middle of downtown was a good idea. Or why. Anyway – looking forward to the new season with you!
58
Gena On Monday, December 10 at 10:25 am
I’m with you Ree about Deacon. Manly man…oh my!! I LOVE this show and I watch very little TV, except for The Cooking Channel and Food Network. The music is great and so are the story lines. I have the last 2 episodes taped and can’t wait to sit down this week and get my Nashville on!
59
jmk On Monday, December 10 at 10:26 am
I like Scarlett a lot – I am waiting for her character to be filled in a little more. But I think she’s pretty solid now.
60
April On Monday, December 10 at 10:30 am
I too have been hooked since the first episode. I live an hour from Nashville so it’s fun to see the city glamourized that I love/hate so much. I love Connie Britton as Reyna but I have to say that her just showing up at various people’s homes and events and walking up like she is not even famous does not seem realistic. I don’t think she would be just waltzing around the city without a posse. I think her sister is awful to her and I wish they would show more of their past relationship. I love Hayden as the bad girl/villain that really does have feelings. She can give an angry stare like no one else. I agree that Juliet sometimes gets on my nerves and her clothes are atrocious. I wish they would show more scenes of Reyna being a Mom and tell us more about her past with her father.
April On Monday, December 10 at 10:34 am
I meant to say Scarlett’s clothes are atrocious
Whitney On Monday, December 10 at 11:21 am
Re-Scarlett’s clothes
I know, right?! Seriously, WHO cooks dinner in a get up like that? Let alone, walk out of the house?!?!?!
61
Sarah B On Monday, December 10 at 10:31 am
I love this show so much that I’m caught between wanting to “save” up episodes on my DVR so I can have a marathon and watching it immediately each week. HUGE fan here.
62
Sherri Len On Monday, December 10 at 10:34 am
I, too, really enjoy Nashville. I must say, I wanted to watch it because you had recommended Friday Night Lights, which both my husband and I then watched and liked. Then I was hooked on Connie Britton! Rayna hair – you’d be crazy not to want it. But I’m guessing that it comes with a boatload of professional hairstylists and hair products! Just sayin’. Scarlett…hmmmm…I just wonder if maybe there is a tragic storyline in her past. I’ve heard no mention of her parents or siblings, yet she’s close enough to Uncle Deacon to ask him if she can move in after Avery jerks her around one too many times. It will be interesting to see if the writers expose why her character is so wimpy and whiny, and if they will give her a thicker skin in the future. She reminds me of me when I was younger, just innocent and naive – no so any more after some “life” hit me. We don’t want her to be a “tough broad” though, do we? Unlike so many others, I would love to see Avery come back….but only as a humble and repentent, “I’ve learned my lessons well” kind of nice guy. That would be kinda cool, huh?
63
Laura in OKC On Monday, December 10 at 10:38 am
Love, love, love Deacon. Manly men get me every time. Favorite songs, so far? “If I Didn’t Know Better.” Scarlett may be a wimp, but she and Gunner can sure do a love song justice. Of course Deacon and Rayna’s duet, “No One Will Ever Love You” was heart wrenching. I’m a sucker for a love song.
Karen On Monday, December 10 at 11:37 am
That song–No One Will Ever Love You–was TV magic. The way it was filmed was magical, too, with the camera in close and revolving around them. I watched that clip over and over when it was on YouTube.
64
JennyD On Monday, December 10 at 10:39 am
LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE this show!! LOVE it! its my new guilty pleasure! =)
the music … melts my heart… takes me into my (i wish i was a country girl daydreams) makes me want to move to Nashville… and work at the Bluebird! =) have you watched the clips on how they find the songs??! if you haven’t … you MUST…. you won’t regret it!! ABC baby!! dot com that is! under watch episodes… they have full episodes and clips!
65
Veronica On Monday, December 10 at 10:42 am
I sooo am glad I gave Nashville a try, I love the show. Especially the music!
66
Melanie On Monday, December 10 at 10:45 am
Ditto, everything you said. Scarlett drives me CRAZY!! But it wouldn’t be much fun if she didn’t right? Image our bordeom if all of our fav characters had it all together?
67
Mary Beth S On Monday, December 10 at 10:55 am
I am loving Nashville, too. Though, I think Teddy is a weak character. Yeah, Scarlett is weak too–why was she living with Avery to begin with? The music is sooo good!
68
Suzanne On Monday, December 10 at 10:57 am
Can’t wait for the CD to be available tomorrow…a certain store with a bullseye has bonus tracks!
69
k8e On Monday, December 10 at 11:00 am
ditto … my opinion exactly
70
Sarah C. On Monday, December 10 at 11:05 am
I LOVE THIS SHOW. Thank you for posting about it! I lived in Nashville for 8 years and now live far away for my husband’s grad school, and it is so bittersweet to watch and see some of my favorite places. I also want Connie Britton’s hair, oh my goodness. And I agree with everything you said about the characters except for Avery- I knew a lot of guys like that, unfortunately, especially when I was in college there and knew more “aspiring artists”!
My favorite songs so far were “I Will Fall” and the one on last week’s episode, “When the Right One Comes Along”, both by Scarlett and Gunnar!
71
Christine On Monday, December 10 at 11:12 am
I love this show and watch it every week. Also love Scandal and Vegas with Scandal my No. 1, Nashville my No. 2 and Vegas my No. 3 among new shows. Like most everyone, I *tape* them (we don’t really tape anything anymore, do we? We DVR it…tee hee) and then watch them over the weekend, sans commercials. Scarlett needs to put on her big girl panties and just deal. And Deacon? OMG…….’nuff said.
72
Vicki A On Monday, December 10 at 11:17 am
I love this show too! Also downloaded Fade into You right away and cant stop singing it!!!
73
Tara On Monday, December 10 at 11:22 am
Love the show! Avery is getting a little better, but Scarlett drives me nuts! I love Deacon!
74
Linda On Monday, December 10 at 11:23 am
Me, too….Love this show and the music is just so good.
75
GuRLiee On Monday, December 10 at 11:23 am
At first I really liked this show but I really really don’t like Scarlett (I don’t think she can act her way out of a paper bag) she is infuriating and I’m not feeling the chemistry with her and any character. I love Connie Briton and Hayden and OMG Charles Esten makes me sweat but I just can’t get past the Scarlett character so I quit watching it. She ruins the show for me.
76
Carla Eden On Monday, December 10 at 11:25 am
Oh my goodness I was afraid I was the only one loving this show! The music, the drama, the hair, love love love it. But I agree that Scarlett needs to grow a pair, which I think will happen if it gets picked up for a second season
77
scrapbookjri On Monday, December 10 at 11:37 am
My absolutely FAVORITE show! I have recorded and kept them all so far so I can rewatch them. I love love love the song When the Right One Comes Along…….
DC Abs On Tuesday, December 11 at 1:01 pm
You guys MUST listen to this duo’s (Striking Matches) EP as Scarlett and the co-writer guy didn’t even do this song justice. I heard them a couple weeks prior to the episode airing here in DC and they were so fabulous that they made a co-worker cry. Also, going online and hearing the songs from the real bands point of view is an awesome perk to Nashville if you like country music! PS- I want Connie Briton’s hair too!!
78
Elisa On Monday, December 10 at 11:37 am
totally agree! i also find scarlett pretty annoying, but i do love the flirty relationship she has with gunner, and he’s pretty dang cute.
i’m also really impressed with deacon, and when i looked up that actor, i found out he used to occasionally be on Whose Line Is It Anyway, one of my favorite old shows!! totally different from the dark and moody thing he’s got going on here.
such a great show!
79
Chris Sheely On Monday, December 10 at 11:38 am
I’ve been a Jonathan Jackson fan ever since he was a little kid on General Hospital. A fine child actor has grown into a fine adult actor. However, the writers aren’t using him to best advantage, and Scarlett DOES need to man up from time to time. And I love that everyone does their own singing-or at least that’s what I’ve heard. I’m not a country fan but I AM a fan of this show!!
80
Jen On Monday, December 10 at 11:39 am
I totally agree with your assessment. In fact, as I was watching last week episode, I may have directed this comment to the TV screen: “Scarlett, get a SPINE!”
81
Gerontologist On Monday, December 10 at 11:45 am
I am a life-long country music fan and I knew this was going to be good. I love that it is filmed in actual locations in Nashville. My husband’s sister lives in Nashville and I recognize many of the locations. It is neat knowing I have been in some of them myself. I am sad that it is off until January, but at least that isn’t long to wait.
Love Scarlett but I think she would faint if someone said “boo” to her.
82
Jo (Dash) On Monday, December 10 at 11:47 am
YOU definitely resemble Connie Britton!!!
83
Nee Nee On Monday, December 10 at 11:52 am
I love this show too! Totally started watching it because of Connie Britton, but I also love the town of Nashville and country music. And when I was in Nashville in October to help a friend put on a Dierks Bentley charity event, I got to meet Teddy – he was there just hanging out, and he gave a script of the pilot signed by all of the actors to the charity auction. So fun!
Anyways – I agree with all of your assessments – and while Scarlett’s character annoys me, I love the purity of her voice and her duets as well. Avery, well, I like him in that the song ‘Kiss’ he sang was written by one of my favorite songwriters, Sean McConnell, and that makes me super happy! But his character path annoys me…
Anyways – love the show – it’s in my top 3 for the season – which also includes Revenge and Scandal…
84
Pam On Monday, December 10 at 11:53 am
Hey, I love Scarlett! She’s sweet and vulnerable and has an incredible voice. I love her bluesy singing style. Every episode I sit on the edge of my seat wondering “When is Scarlett going to sing?” I’d buy her album in a heartbeat.
85
Cathy D On Monday, December 10 at 11:55 am
I love the Good Wife but I think Nashville is even better. Connie Britton is great in the rold of Rayna but I really like Juliette also. The only one that I am not fond of is Scarlett. She needs to go.
86
Jen of My Tiny Oven On Monday, December 10 at 11:57 am
I LOVE LOVE LOVE this show! I can’t get enough of it!!
87
Martha Ann On Monday, December 10 at 12:01 pm
I find myself looking at the clock in Bible class to see what time it is so I can get home to see Nashville. Forgive me Father……… I love that show.
88
Rebecca On Monday, December 10 at 12:05 pm
I love this show! I work second shift- so catch it On Demand as soon as possible. I especially enjoy the music. I agree – I’d like to take Scarlett by the shoulders and say WAKE UP! But what I’d really like to know is which of the actors do their own singing. Especially – does Connie Britton sing her role? Becky
89
Alyssa On Monday, December 10 at 12:18 pm
I must admit – I started watching this show because Coach Taylor’s wife was going to be on it. And my dvr was quite lonely after no more FNL. The first episode I was not sold – HP’s character wore on me. But this show has totally grown on me and I am bummed that last week was the fall’s season finale. By the way, when did they actually start calling it “fall season finale”????
I am totally on the Nashville bandwagon and rooting for Connie!
PS – Deacon…..swoon……
90
Lisa Rae On Monday, December 10 at 12:29 pm
Yup, we’re hooked too & my hubby is so anti “soaps” & country music…..lol. He likes many of the songs too. I LOVE the characters.
91
Michelle D. On Monday, December 10 at 12:32 pm
I LOVE this show too! I don’t get why so many of you don’t like Scarlett! She is just a sweet sole and I adore her character. It is hard because I want Rayna to get together with Deacon but then I feel bad for wanting that because her husband is actually a good husband who made some mistakes…. he isn’t evil. This is my favorite show this season!
92
Beth On Monday, December 10 at 12:38 pm
I’m a transplanted Northerner who has lived in Nashville since 1997. I spent 8 years in the music industry (not an artist–I did public relations) and I’ve loved watching the show both for how they’ve portrayed this great city and also to see how they handle the music biz stuff. Really love how much they focus on songwriting and songwriters–I’m not a country music fan, but when I moved to town I came to appreciate that country music is some of the best-written music around, because of that focus. “It’s all about the song” is the motto, and that’s the truth.
I hope it sticks around a while, because the production company has made a deliberate effort to hire locals for about 80% of the jobs, whether it’s musicians, set-builders, catering, lighting, sound, etc. Lots of folks who frequently have to leave town for work are being able to stay home.
93
Judy Whitford On Monday, December 10 at 12:46 pm
I, too, love this show. I especially love that Rayna stands up for herself and what she believes in and that she stays true to her friendship with Coleman. Love the boots and hope my name gets picked…size 8 por favor!
94
collette On Monday, December 10 at 12:51 pm
I totally agree!! LOVE Rayna’s hair! and I am actually starting to like Juliette! Scarlett totally needs to grow up! I think she could “make it” and be as big as Rayna and Juliette if she would put on her big girl panties!
95
Susan On Monday, December 10 at 12:58 pm
Oh this show is crazy good!!! Love, love love it!!
96
emc On Monday, December 10 at 1:14 pm
Love this show, especially now that I live in Nashville. Yes, Scarlett is killing me, especially her horribly fake southern accent(she is australian). The music is great. Definitely want to buy it on Itunes.
97
Tracy On Monday, December 10 at 1:29 pm
While that song SHOULD be called Black Mascara Tears, it’s really called Love Like Mine, for anyone trying to find it.
98
Robbie Jungers On Monday, December 10 at 1:40 pm
I loved Connie on Friday Night Lights so of course I had to watch Nashville. I cried when that show ended (FNL). I love Eric Close on Nashville too. He’s been on some many good series. Of course Charles is easy on the eyes. Very handsome man. Love the show…it’s set on my Tivo
99
RuthT On Monday, December 10 at 1:46 pm
Love Love Love the show Nashville. Am waiting for tomorrow when they are suppose to release the CD of all the songs.
100
Brynna On Monday, December 10 at 2:06 pm
I had also built the show way up before it even started. Like you, I am still loving it! I love Deacon. Everything about his character is great. I am so excited to keep watching and seeing where this will end up. I wouldn’t mind if Avery moved to ATL and we never saw him again. |
> Biography
2003Learn all about the Greek gods and famous scientists throughout history.About this site
2003From ancient Rome to modern day, world leaders have set the direction for peace and prosperity or for war and hardship. Just who are these people and what influence have they had on our world? What qualities make a person a world leader? You'll find the answers to these questions and more at our site. About this site
2003Voices of the American Revolution expresses the main focus of our website. Traitors, Seamstresses, and Generals were real people who were important figures during the time of the American Revolution.About this siteGreatest Inventions - The Evolution of Man Through History is a Web site developed with purpose of acquainting the Internet surfer with the greatest minds of all times and the greatest inventions they have invented to improve life for all mankind.About this site
1999"The Man - The Mahatma" deals with the life of the man largely responsible for India's freedom from British rule after approximately 190 years. Mahatma Gandhi is portrayed not only as a man who gave India its independence but also as a father, son, philosopher and spiritual leader. A variety of perspectives on his life are available from world leaders across the globe, including the viewpoint of Nathuram Godse, his assassin. Both the Media Gallery contains rare photographs and letters and the discussion forum are great learning resources for anyone seeking information on Gandhi. Languages: English.About this site
1998Our web site, "Explorers of the Millennium," will provide students with a wealth of information about the most important explorers of the past thousand years in a simple, easy-to-use format. We included reports on nineteen explorers, chosen by members of our team. We organized the explorers on separate "Hall of Fame" and "Timeline" web pages, so that users can look for a particular explorer by name or by century. We have a links page to help students find other helpful Web sites that relate to the explorers selected. A quiz section gives visitors a chance to see what they know about some of our explorers. A feedback page invites visitors to submit their own nominations for our Explorers' Hall of Fame. We hope that a visit to "Explorers of the Millennium" will answer students' questions about explorers, lead them to new sources of information, and encourage them to think critically about which explorers were the "greatest" and why eormously helpful resource!This project entails a chronological series of the events in Mahatma Gandhi's life, from his birth in India, to his South African experiences, to his role as a leader of the Indian Freedom Struggle. His ideologies have been highlighted as they guide the current generation.About this site
2009This project is about Muhammad SAW.We choose him because we think he is the greatest leader in the world.We will describe about all of his activities, such as his sociaty activities,his goverment activities, etc. All that he do is dedicate for all his populace.He never think about him self,but he just think about "How will he do to make a better populace?".So, we are very proud with him.About this site
2009In what way do you recognize the legacy of your nation's leaders?
What made our leaders significant in their field? Is it all about being famous or giving the utmost service their people would require?
How do you remember your leader? Join us as we discover how some of the most prominent leaders handled their leadership and legacy.
About this site
2006Through this website, people around the world will learn about and truly appreciate what women have done for society. We hope to show by example how women have struggled to achieve in a male dominated world. We hope that the encouraging stories of resourceful women will encourage young women to strive to achieve their goals in life
2003We have made websites on famous hispanic people who have a made a difference in people's lives. Take a look around our sites and enjoy. About this site
2003This website is about the Legendary Buccaneer, Jean Lafitte. Sit back and relax as you explore and learn about the greatest pirate to ever live. This learning experience will simply entice you to search for more readings on this historical figure. Resources include an interview with a local author, Nola Mae Ross, who has done extensive research into the life of Jean Lafitte.About this site
2003This site has information on the play, Julius Caesar, written by William Shakespeare as well as information on the real Julius Caesar
2003Visit this site to learn the history of the Teddy Bear!About this site
2003This site gives information on the history of Apple computers. You will learn about the different products they offer as well as information on the founder of the company, Steve Jobs.About this site
2003Our website is intended to teach other students about the Nobel Prize and the importance of working hard to make our world a better place. About this site
2003Welcome to the William Wallace Site! Here you will learn everything you need to know about the Scottish Wars of Independence and William Wallace.Checkout our website! It has things on Hitler, Anne Frank, Pearl Harbor, and so much more. So come and check it out!About this site
2001We picked four people that we admire as people who we believe are peace makers in the world. They wanted to make the world a better place. They tried to live their beliefs.About this site
2001We have mathematicians and scientists on our website. There are biographies on the mathematicians and scientistsThis site is all about MAGIC. You can learn about many famous magicians and how to do lots of great magic tricks. You can even learn how to have your own magic show. You can also take a fun quiz about the Harry Potter books.About this site
2001This site contains all the information about Mahatma Gandhi with an accurate timeline, an unbiased view of the movements he lead and gives some insight into his thoughts. He ws one of the greatest leaders who helped India get independence but always opposing violence. There are various divisions of the site to make its viewing easy. There is a seperate section of text-only. This means that all the information can be printed straight away using very little paper. The site is available in 5 languages for users who are not comfortable with english. There is a sitemap and a quiz on 'the mahatma'. Links to other sites useful to collect even more information about gandhi are also given.
special features
1. cartoons (which were printed in the press)
2. calendar (2001 calendar with various pictures of gandhi;also available for download)
3. audio and media gallery(featuring exclusive sounds and videos of gandhi)
4. seperate website for flash users and normal html.
5. sections for printouts
6. a quiz based on gandhiAbout site is all about the famous people in history who changed the world through their ideas or achievements. We have included biographies on examples of famous inventors, composers, artists, geniuses, leaders, and explorers. We have a quiz to test your knowledge of what you learned. We hope you enjoy learning all about people who changed the worldEveryone seems to like to explore the world around them. Some people (like scientists, astronauts, and inventors) are exploring space, Antarctica, science, or the ocean. In times gone by, people were exploring the world around them, too. This site is about a few of the famous explorers that we've studiedIn our web site, we have identified and discussed the greatest American Heroes of the Twentienth Century. We divided our website into categories, choosing heroes in; Science and Technology, Sports, Business, Human Rights, Leaders, and the Arts. We have several interactive activities for visitors to do, such as a quiz, crossword and messageboard.About this site
2000You will enjoy learning about the biographies of famous people from the past and the present at our site.About this site
2000Our ThinkQuest site will provide information about Charles Augustus Lindbergh and what he did for the world. It is somewhat like an online biography of him. Most people know that he was the first pilot to fly solo across the Atlantic Ocean from New York to Paris. Well, do those people know what college he attended? Or who his sons suspected kidnapper was? This page will speak of such things. It has a little information about Lindbergh Elementary School in Palisades Park, New Jersey. We have a few special features such as a video tour, screen shot gallery, quiz page, educational info, and a look at our team.About this site
2000With a click of your mouse, you will enter the world of explorers. You will find information on Cortez, Columbus, Ericson, Magellan, and Drae.About this site
2000This site is about famous people. We have information about such famous people of the last millenium such as Martin Luther, George Washington, and Thomas Edison. We have a game that tests your knowledgeThis site3 looks at heroes past and present. You also get a chance to think about how to be one! About this site
2000For centuries society has revered and idolized extraordinary individuals called Heroes. Often subject to stereotypes and misinterpretations, many of these heroes are what we call archetypal heroes, legends who bravely risked their lives while conquering some inconceivable obstacle. Entering the new Millennium, perhaps we can break this archetypal mould as we learn about and discover heroes of the twentieth century: role models who serve as an inspiration to others and make a difference in society. Although heroism is subject to various interpretations, we show that real heroism is not simply about death defying feats, but is about making a positive difference and improving lives. Our goal is for viewers to use the website in a practical way, not only to benefit themselves, but to inspire them to become like their heroes and make a difference in the world. We encourage people to take action and utilize the tools that they learn while viewing our site. Students, teachers, parents and children alike can join us on an educational journey, gaining a deeper understanding of the hero concept. Find out how we selected our heroes, tour a virtual heroic database filled with 20th century heroes, tell us about your hero, learn how to take action and think globally while acting locally. Discover the connection between classroom education and community service as you explore service learning, follow guidelines that allow you to take the worlds future into your capable hands and all the while discover how you can demonstrate Heroism in Action! About this site
2000Our site is on famous scientists. We have their biographies on our site. About this site
2000This site is an interactive research database on motion pictures and their history. It includes Academy Awards information and history, biographies of important people, analysis of cinematographic methods, and a serachable resource database.About this site
1999We created an entry about Albert Einstein. We explored his life and his work as a scientist. Our web site includes information about Einstein, quotes which we found interesting, and plenty of photos for our visual
spatial viewers. We included a biography which emphasizes his childhood. His educational background and any people, who were an inspiration to him are included. We decided that he was not just a fuzzy headed guy with glasses; but was a person who sailed into life with the
wind behind him!About this site
1999Our project was done by two members. Katie is in fifth grade and Alex is in fourth grade. We made a web site about Amelia Earhart. Our site tells about the life of Amelia Earhart. Every year we do about four research projects. We picked Amelia because we think it will help others to learn how people are created equal and that girls can do more things just like Amelia's parents let her and her sister do. In fourth and fifth grade in Oregon we work on assignments that we do to meet Benchmark standards. We keep some of the assignments in a portfolio and they are scored using special scoring guides. We used this project as one we put in our portfolio and Mrs. Smith scored it using the scoring guide. By doing this project we learned how to do research in many different ways, both at libraries and over the net. We learned how to make web pages and had to solve lots of problems along the way.About this site
1999Learn about the story of Anastasia and try to decide if it really happened or if it was just a figment of someone's imagination.About this site
1999Our web-page's name is Chinggis Khan. In our web-page we decided to include brief information about life of Great Mongolian ruler Chinggis Khan. Web-page is for children & adults who are interested in history, in boigraphy of Great people. Our web-page is consists of following parts:Temuujin, Timeline, Legacy, War of Conquest, Dictionary, Quiz & Map. Temuujin.Here you will find history of Chinggis Khan's birth, his childhood, and engagement and his father's death. Timeline-It's important dates of Chinggis Khan's life. Legacy-which consists of Batu-Khaan, Golden Orde, Munkh Khan, Khubilai Khan tells you about children and grand children of Chinggis Khan and important events in history of Mongolia. War of Conquest- Chinggis Khan's war with neighbor countries. Dictionary-explanation of some Mongolian names and places mentioned in our web-page Quiz-in True false quiz you can check your knowledge of important dates of Chinggis Khan Map-it is map on countries which Chinggis Khan and his legacy attacked and conquered. About this site
1999Our group did Christopher Columbus. We read a ton of stuff about his life. We also included trivia questions that cover the facts people will read on our web site. It is fun and interesting for all ages to learn on. Teachers will be able to print out the trivia questions for their class and studets can use it to do research. Our Christopher Columbus site is educational because it will tell anything you need or want to know about Christopher Columbus with just the click of a button.About this site
1999EGYPTIAN...the first nationality in history , the first citizens of a true civilization , a civilization a mystery to all who live , Over seven thousand years ago these . These people were able to achieve a standard of civilization which was a miracle at that time and still remains to be a mystery. Millions and millions of people have held the same nationality ...Egyptian. There simplest dream was always related to having the honor of holding the nationality, of being a part of that nation of doing something to raise the name of their country up high . Millions and millions of people have given up their lives with pride defending their nation , their civilization and their people . From the wars of the Pharons with the Heksos till the great 6th of October war in 1973 which gave us back our land , our rights and our freedom . Millions and millions of people have dream of a better future of a better way of life . They dream of ever lasting peace , some of them succeeded some of them not . Thanks to that group of Egyptian people who not only influenced egyptian history but went across borders to influence the surrounding world , they affected human life in one way or another , we now live a safe life . This site is to introduce and honor Egyptian people who we can respect for what they have done, to let the whole world know what they gave up their lives forAbout this site
1999"Famous Women in History" is an entry about famous women who have shaped 20th century history. Because of the sheer number of famous women throughout history, we chose to develop this entry around 10 different women. These 10 women are all uniquely different and have contributed in various ways to the shaping of our history. They're scientists, authors, entertainers, and pioneers to name just a few. The ten famous women covered in our entry are: Agatha Christie, Rosa Parks, Hillary Clinton, Helen Keller, Jane Goodall, Mother Teresa, Lucille Ball, Anne Frank, Amelia Earhart, and Marie Curie. Students studying social studies, science, or literature topics (interdisciplinary) will find our web entry quite interesting and informative. With each woman, we've made an effort to highlight intriguing biography facts, describe major accomplishments, and/or otherwise explain to visitors why the woman is an important figure in history. As we near the end of the 20th century, our site will help students and adults learn more about and appreciate the contributions this assortment of women have had in our history.About this site
1999The educational objective of this site is to teach about two famous scientists: Issac Newton and Albert Einstein.About this site
1999This web site is devoted to four peacemakers throughout history. In addition to a biographical sketch of each peacemaker, a game associated with the individual is highlighted.About this site
1999Some things you would want to know about the life, death, and family of Princess Diana.About this site
1999This web page looks at the most popular stars in the preteen world. The girls identified who they thought were the best and more to the point WHY they were popular, with a focus on positive messages about education, drugs, and goals.About this site
1999Our entry, Taking On the World, European Explorers, provides information on numerous famous explorers such as Columbus and Magellan. We have an activity page in which the visitor can do a crossword puzzle, take an interactive quiz, contribute information to our guestbook, and have a great time. The resource page has all of our bibliography information. We have an about us page letting the visitor know a little about us. In all, we have eight explorers, two great games, a guestbook, and pages of educational information, all with the best pictures and backgrounds for the use of our visitors. Our major educational objective is to inform our visitors of the contributions of European explorers. We are hoping that students will find this information useful for research projects or just for fun.About this site
1999This entry deals with The Wright Brothers, an area of
interest to the two young ladies involved. Our objectives
included the technical skills acquired related to the
construction of the web page, research skills, writing
skills and organizational and interpersonal inherent in
team work.About this site
1999We are teaching the people about how these explorers became famous and what they discovered to gain their fame. The people who come to our website will get many educational facts and interesting information about all 6 explorers and their adventures. Teachers can get a lot of valuable information from our website, too. They can even make a copy of our quiz, crossword puzzle, and word searches for their classes to do.About this site
1999Our Entry is called Traveling Across America. We provide information on Famous Americans and provide links to Biographies of other famous people. We have included some places to visit including monuments and vacation spots. We cover the Civil War and include links to other American based wars. We have also provided geography and history links. We hope you enjoy the ride.About this site
1999This project is a timeline and reporting of how women have changed and ere changed by events in history during the twentieth century. This includes both adult women and girls. We have included a brief biography of each woman(girl) and an explanation of the historical eventAs we looked through our textbooks we saw that women were not often represented. We decided that since women make up at least half of the population they should get recognized.
The women on our pages represent several areas including history, science, sports, and the arts. We realize that we could not include every woman that has ever made a contribution to our world, therefore we are inviting students to continue our endeavor by researching famous women and sending us the information so that we can include it on our pageThis site has information about different movies that have been filmed and also about some actors
1998Sometimes girls need some encouragement to become strong women. Learn about women's stereotypes and restrictions put on them that are propagated by the media. Enjoy the examples of strong women role models. Particularly touching is the story about Karen Carpenter, a talented and successful entertainer who died from anorexia. Read some "herstory" and find out more about great women and their achievements. The Quest journal exercise is a fantastic tool for self discovery!While celebrating a local hero, a connection to the past was made in a way that kids can could get involved in the direction of their own learning. The school's founder and benefactor provided (defined) a period of time (1798-1876) during which many interdisciplinary studies could take place. All of the areas, math, science, transportation, health/medicine, history, music and language were looked at from the view of Hiram Bellows life time. This team built a web site to share a few of what the whole sixth grade classes covered during this journey into the pastEnter this site to learn about the life and art of Leonardo da Vinci
1997You've heard all about "history," now learn about "Herstory!" Covered here are time lines of women's history, women's relationships to their communities, and examples of non-traditional careers. How have women been stereotyped in the media? Does Barbie have the ideal figure? Teens will find the site inspiring. Recommended links and a list of books to read are features which add extra value.Enter this site to learn about the theories and the world of Charles Darwin. |
For your Just Too Dumb file:
MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) – A 15-year-old Coon Rapids student says he wears a rosary as a necklace to feel close to his grandmother, who is suffering from breast cancer. But the Anoka-Hennepin School District told him to take the rosary off – or face the consequences.
Jake Balthazor says he prays for his grandmother’s health.
“She has breast cancer, and I’m trying to support her for it,” he said.
He wears his beliefs proudly. The rosary is one his grandmother gave him, but it’s also what landed him in the principal’s office.
“They think it’s like a gang sign,” Balthazor said.
A district spokesperson said the school asked Balthazor not to wear the rosary as a necklace again, saying policy forbids it.
The district’s student discipline policy forbids “any apparel, jewelry, accessories, or matter of grooming which by virtue of its color arrangement, trademark, or any other attribute (as a primary purpose) denotes membership in an organized gang.”
Balthazor’s family finds the school’s stance baffling.
“I don’t know how anything with the church can be affiliated with a gang,” said Balthazor’s father, Dave Thompson. “It doesn’t make any sense.”
Balthazor’s rosary wearing might also not make sense to many Catholics. He wears the rosary as a necklace, which is unusual. Moreover, Balthazor isn’t Catholic, he’s Lutheran; but those close to the family say they understand why he wears it.
“The rosary brings people closer to Christ,” said Bob Balk, who owns St. George Catholic Books and Gifts with his wife, Sharon.
“It represents faith on her part and his,” Sharon Balk said.
Balthazor’s grandmother goes in for surgery Thursday.
“His opinion is: If he’s wearing it, Grandma’s going to be OK,” Thompson said.
Balthazor said he plans to wear his rosary to school Thursday, but says if he’s asked to take it off, he’ll put it in his pocket.
UPDATE: The communications director for the Anoka-Hennepin School District, Mary Olson, said they were unaware that Balthazor wore the rosary to honor his grandmother. Olson also shared a letter they received last month from the police liaison about rosaries being used as gang signs. [So, rather than ask, they assumed the worst.] The letter states, “A new issue came up recently that is interesting regarding rosary beads. Some gangs do use them as clothing symbols. The gangs identified around here that have been using them are the Latin Kings and the Surenos.” Olson said she understands that Balthazor did wear the rosary to school on Thursday and is currently in finals. She said the school plans to talk with him to try and work out a compromise.
Sadly, gangs are using the Rosary as a gang sign. Hip Hop has taken what was meant to be holy and sacred and turned it into a mockery. Most kids who wear them sadly do not even know what it is, or is used for. So that being said, I understand the School’s position, although, they should have asked the young man about it, rather than assuming that it was a gang sign. It shows great ignorance on their part.
Actually, I agree with what the school did. The kid should wear the rosary under his shirt if he wants, but rosaries have become gang signs recently. My brother is a cop and tells me he sees it all the time. He’ll strike up a conversation with the kids too. “So, you pray the rosary a lot, huh? What’s your favorite mystery? Hey, can you remind me how to say the Hail Mary?”
**sigh**
They were handing out rosaries as souvenir gifts at a preview screening of a grisly exorcism horror movie that came out earlier this year. The movie was called “The Devil Inside” and the title was stamped on the pouches holding the rosaries. Still haven’t figured out what to do with mine—have it blessed according to the old rite (including the exorcisms)?
I work in community corrections, and yes, Rosaries are being used by gangs now. While the kid in the story has good intentions (though it sounds like he’s using it for superstitious reasons), knowing what I know about gangs, the issues of coordinating reporting appointments so that there aren’t “incompatibles” in the office at the same time, it’s in this kid’s best interest and safety to keep his Rosary in his pocket. The last thing anyone wants is for this kid to get shot, stabbed, or curb stomped because he was wearing what gang members consider “their symbol”. We’re talking about people who will cut off someone’s gang membership tattoo because they no longer are part of the gang. These aren’t your rational elite individuals yiu’re talking about.
I disagree with the school, but nobody should be wearing a rosary. Period. It’s not jewelery. Carry it in your pocket or bag, pray with it, etc. but please don’t use Our Lady’s gift to us as a piece of jewelery.
Sadly, it has become a gang sign. I like the way Philangelus’ brother, the cop, interrogates the rosary-wearers. Brings to mind those who hang the beads over their car’s rear-view mirror. Sometimes I tease those drivers with the same type of questions. For many, they think of it as a good luck charm, but they have know idea that it is meant to be used in prayer or how to pray the rosary. THAT’s where the grace comes from!
I have to agree with everyone above. Not to mention, look at how it is now being used as a “good luck charm”: “His opinion is: If he’s wearing it, Grandma’s going to be OK”.
That is not how we are supposed to be treating the Rosary. Why not instead of wearing the Rosary, he pray it? That would get much more accomplished than just wearing it. Its the typical “as long as I show up and appear to be Christian, I’m alright”.
Acardnal: I have a small Rosary that I hang on my window. I do pray the Rosary on (an almost) nightly basis though.
I had never heard of a rosary used as a gang symbol, so I googled around. From what I can tell, someone (ie, no one) started this as an urban legend in the 80′s. Schools picked up on it and started stopping kids in the halls in the 90′s. Court cases ensued. Word got around that a rosary has 1st Amendment protections, and gangs started to actively adopt (and adapt) the rosary to be a gang symbol. What a sad, sorry history. Our Mother is always at work, though, regardless of the wearer’s intentions. I pray she can change hearts.
This fad is crazy and I hope it stops soon. For fear of being associated with the gangs, I quit wearing my Rosary as a necklace and just started wearing my monstrance-hat or backpack made from an enormous Third Order Carmelite scapular (O.C.D. WUT WUT!) to school instead. Can’t wait for tax-free weekend, mom’s getting me my new kicks for next year.
@Jeff: In most states it is illegal to hang something from your mirror if it blocks your vision of the road. Philangelus’ brother, the cop, can probably tell you that. Whether it’s rosary beads or dice or garters or . . . . Best to put the rosary in your pocket and pray it and not to think of it as a good luck charm. I do use a rosary ring while driving. Much safer.
Shesh. Gangs also use watches. Why not ban this type of jewelry as well? Gang members also wear pants, why not ban those as well?
Rosaries, watches, and pants cannot be considered gang signs precisely because there are an order of magnitude more people who use these who are not a part of a gang than are. So these “signs” don’t distinguish you as anything special.
Of course, it might be a non-Catholic neighborhood and the gang members happen to be Catholics. But if they’re profiling Catholics, they should at least be honest about their bigotry rather than hide behind “I’m just following orders”.
Switch to scapulars. :D
@Kab63, I can assure you that gangs, or rather one in particular, does use the rosary as a sign. I remind my students regularly, there’s a lot of information out there that you just can’ t find on google.
@Moro: Wearing something does not, necessarily, turn the object worn into a mere piece of jewelry. I wear a Miraculous Medal but it’s not “just jewelry” to me. My son has a wooden bead rosary that I occasionally wear around my neck so he can finger the beads while I nurse him – it is a good way for me to teach him a devotion I hope he will treasure when he is older.
I think there is something to the point that as a non-Catholic this boy has attached a kind of superstition to the wearing of the rosary, but still, it is sad that the school reacted the way they did (I used to be a public school teacher and I am surprised at how often news from schools features teachers and administrators who apparently never think to ask students why they do things. Sometimes the information is not useful, or students lie, but more often it provides insight that can help address the problem.)
I wonder, too, that even if he did have it in his pocket and it had been seen there, that the school might have interpreted it as trying to “outsmart” the administrators about his gang affiliation.
I am always bothered when I see people wearing rosaries like necklaces. I generally don’t know their specific motivation but my impression is that they are regarding it as jewelry, as a fashion accessory. In at least some cases it has seemed apparent they (protestants) regarded it as a cross necklace, that they wore as a sign of Christian faith. Sometimes I have tried to question people about whether they understood a rosary is not a necklace, that it is prayer beads and to Catholics it is not appropriate to use as a fashion accessory, or if they knew how to pray the rosary, generally people seemed surprised and unhappy to be questioned about it. There is a need for Catholics at least to be familiar with the prayer of the rosary. We are never SEEN praying the rosary, so I think the active cultural knowledge of what this is, is just not there now. Maybe I should not be shy to pray the rosary on the bus, I often pray the Liturgy of the Hours on the bus and the rosary in some ways would be an easier bus riding prayer.
There is a portrait reportedly drawn from life of Saint Benedict Joseph Labre, who died homeless in Rome I think in the 18th century, wearing a rosary around his neck. He actually prayed the rosary and doubtless had it there to keep it handy, perhaps he did not have pockets.
anilwant, it’s not about the item itself, but rather how it’s worn or displayed. I never leave the house without my rosary, but it’s in my pocket, not around my neck. Gangs also use something as simple as a color – does that mean that every student that wears yellow or red or blue to school should be suspect? No, but it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
P.S. And if the school district comes up with a lame excuse like here for banning those, keep holy cards in your hands all the time. If they ban that, walk through the school with a bottle of holy water and sprinkle the walls….we got plenty of sacramentals….:)
Jeff, people don’t explain themselves well and since we don’t know his heart, so its a bit presumptuous to assume he sees it as a good luck charm.
All we know is, he wants to rosaries to be publicly displayed (and not hidden), and he believes that Our Lady will care for his grandmother (or at the very least his grandmother’s spirits will be greater so her chances of surviving will also be greater). Care doesn’t necessarily mean cure, but even if he does believe she will be cured, we don’t know the basis of that belief. He might have felt Our Lady called for an act of faith.
Remember also, that there are several aspects of the Catholic faith that look like superstition to outsiders such as miraculous medals, the brown scapular, and going on pilgrimages for feeling.
@ajbasso Forgive me if I wasn’t clear: Rosaries are gang symbols NOW, yes. In the 1980′s rosary-as-gang-symbol was an urban myth. Do you have evidence from that time period that would refute my google finding? Please share if you do. Court cases seem to have begun in the 1990′s, but were against faithful Catholic kids wearing the rosary to school. It is only after that when actual gang usage appears to be documented.
@anilwang I didn’t know this, but apparently gangs who use rosaries now have them made to certain color specifications. The beads represent gang colors, or beads use highlighted colors to represent the gang hierarchy. I don’t think a regular rosary would be mistaken for a gang rosary by anyone who looked closely. However, the rosary is useful to gangs because of the First Amendment. No one can claim that his wristwatch represents freedom of religion.
The wearing of the rosary around the neck is very common in Poland & other Eastern European countries … a lot of the Polish lads who came over to Ireland to work wore them … I was surprised at first, but got used to it … they weren’t being disrespectful, it was simply one of the customs of where they came from … though it does sound like in the US the practice has little to do with religion, going on what has been described above …
Oh, I see… I thought it meant that they thought Catholics were an organized gang. Catholics…. organized…. (snort!)
Analogously, almost, I remember being accosted in Manhattan in the 1980s because of the Roman collar. A gang used clergy shirts and collars. Yikes!
Imagine the religious backlash when tin foil hats become gang signs…
I am a teacher. In the town where I work rosaries worn around the neck, in various colors DO denote gang membership. It is a FACT. We have been told we cannot forbid their use, which is exactly why gangs use them as IDs, but we ask the students to wear them under their clothing. It is a sad, sad, thing to see them used in this way.
As has occasionally been mentioned in this thread, there are cultures in which wearing the rosary around one’s neck is a matter of devotion and if you study the lives of certain Saints you will find the same. Fellow commenters, stop categorically denouncing the wearing of the rosary around the neck (by non gang members) as a matter of wearing jewellery. Just stop. For some it is; for some it isn’t. You are painting with too broad a brush, and I am not sure even that your real targets need another coat of paint.
Maybe somebody can get him an “Abusus non tollit usum” tee-shirt…
I think a sacramental, even if it is not blessed, still can be a vehicle of grace. Perhaps we should pray that Our Lady converts every gang member and general non-Catholic who is wearing her Rosary!
One more reason to never put your kids in the public indoctrination camp, errr school system.
Where I am in Florida, the rosary-as-necklace is a popular gang sign for Latino gangs…especially those originating in Puerto Rico. I agree with the bans in schools because 1) we don’t want to allow gang signs to proliferate, and 2) because an innocent wearing it for good intentions, like the young man in MN, could be mistaken by one gang as a member of the other. Better safe than sorry. And the school can’t be safe just asking: “Oh, is that rosary a gang sign, young lad?” Do you think a gang member would say “Yes, Mr. Principle; I am a member of Latin Kings.” Nope. Unfortunately, I think that the ban is very justified.
Sigh. Hasn’t anybody here seen “For Greater Glory” or any of the old movies about the Spanish missions? People in those countries, like people in Poland and many other countries, often wear rosaries around their necks because it is the custom. It is the custom because, for hundreds of years (and maybe still today) they got an important indulgence for doing it! Why was there an indulgence from the Church for it? So people would have their rosaries right at hand!
And yes, many people in those countries regard wearing rosaries in much the same light as wearing scapulars or Miraculous Medals. There’s no guarantee, but it’s a sacramental and provides a certain amount of protection from evil and from other bad stuff. If you are liable to be in danger, your loved ones are particularly anxious that you wear it. There are countless stories about bad stuff happening to people who scorn wearing it, or people who wear their rosaries being miraculously saved by Mary’s’ intercession.
And yeah, sometimes even criminals and other bad people are in the habit of wearing a rosary, probably because their mother gave it to them or their grandmother begged them to do so. They may not really care to learn the prayers, but that doesn’t mean they have no right to wear it. It’s probably become a sign of Hispanic-ness, by default, so there may be that. And the general use of colors by gangs has probably led some gangs to color-coordinate, if only so that nobody will use Grandma’s different-colored rosary as an excuse for blowing somebody away. But they’ve probably still got Grandma’s rosary on them somewhere, if they have grandmas to have rosaries from.
Catholics need to understand other Catholics, even other bad Catholics. And Mary has always had a notorious soft spot for bad Catholics, ignorant Catholics, and non-Catholics who don’t really know what they’re doing. So I’m not going to advocate depriving today’s twerps of the Marian favors out of nowhere that saved the butts of patristic twerps, medieval twerps, and twerps of all previous Christian ages. As I hope for mercy and grace and have been grateful to receive it, I pray that it comes to others.
Re: patristic — Obviously they didn’t have the Rosary back then. But they did have plenty of stories about Mary saving butts of the desperate, doomed, bad, and crazy. Give Mary an inch and she will take a continent.
And of course an unblessed rosary isn’t a sacramental, but a blessed one is. And even somebody who sadly has only an unblessed rosary usually has a crucifix on it, which is not to be sneezed at. Give Jesus an inch and He’ll take the whole universe of you.
Also, don’t forget the sacramental they can’t take away: the sign of the cross. Unless they chop your arms off. (I know, don’t give them any ideas.)
I disagree with the school, but nobody should be wearing a rosary.
Tell it to the Dominicans, who wear rosaries on their belts as part of the habit.
I wore a rosary around my neck while I sat for the bar exam. I wore it for consolation, and as a way of asking for divine assistance during a time when I was very stressed and couldn’t be praying. Of course, before going in, I also prayed the Rosary, and even got a priest to give me a blessing. (And I passed.)
Anilwang:
You mention clothing as belonging to gang (or drug) members. Of course. That’s where wearing the baseball cap with the visors on the back of the neck came from. Also, as far as pants, I’ll be willing to “bet” that wearing the pants so low has something to do with gangs or drugs. I see the guys wearing the pants so low, I feel the urge to sneak up behind them and give one good yank.
@gambletrainman
Hahaha! I go to church three to four times a week, in a neighbor hood with lotsa gangs. We get all sorts of funny stuff, people begging for money for gas to drive their Corvette to California to visit their twelve children who are all dying, people with meth teeth begging for money for food, (uh,huh, sure), and yes, lotsa people who bought pants twelve sizes too big.
I always say that instead of handing out food stamps and cars, the government should have “Operation Belt.”
Our third order has a prison apostolate; when we donate rosaries they have to be black, break away plastic…so they can’t be used as gang symbols.
My heart goes out to the young man who is terrified that his grandmother may be dying from cancer. This is a complicated issue. Yes, some gang members wear rosaries and that is disgraceful. I don’t see this young man however as either a gang member or superstitious at all. A rosary is a sacramental. I would be ecstatic if I had a grandson who believed enough in Our Blessed Mother’s intervention to want to wear his rosary if I wear the victim of a deadly disease. I have seen ‘Goth’ teenagers wearing large crucifixes around their necks but certainly we can’t ban crucifixes because the ‘Goth’ tenns wear them for jewelry. My youngest son is a priest and he was raised to spiritually appreciate sacramentals as were all my children. We can’t let anti-socials steal the respect for sacramentals that our children should have.
As a long time cop who has worked in gang areas I have to agree with the school. It is a fact that some gangs (predominently Hispanic–and that is not a racial slam, just a fact) do wear a rosary as part of their attire. The school did not ban him from carryng the rosary in his pocket they simply denied his wearing it in a visible way.
Until about five months ago (when I accidentally broke the link on my rosary) I would wear it under my shirt every day. Now that I’m reminded of it, I’ll probably fix it up and start doing that again. It’s a nice reminder to pray throughout the day.
There’s a world of difference between “wearing a rosary” and “wearing a rosary as jewelry.
The eastern Church has a long history of wearing a prayer rope on the wrist, either a short one with 33 knots, or a long one with 100 (looped a few times). How is this different from wearing a rosary?
Also, when I taught religious education and gave rosaries to my students, the Hispanic ones all automatically put them around their necks. At the time I was disturbed by that, but said nothing, asked questions, and learned it is a devout practice south of our border.
In Puerto Rico, which is rather famous for the extent of its Marian devotion, the custom for men to wear the rosary under their shirt so that it may be easily and quickly accessible for prayer. It used to be the custom to pray the rosary three times a day (morning, noon, and evening). In October it is the custom to wear the rosary openly, for obvious reasons.
Yes they had pockets, but if you had an item that you considered precious, wished to use at any moment, and did not want to lose, could you think of a better or more secure place than around your neck and next to your heart? The idea probably came from the maner in which the Eucharist is taken to the sick.
Literary reference: wasn’t Jonathan Harker given a rosary by a little old lady to wear as protection on his way to Castle Dracula?
I’m an immigration lawyer. Several years ago, one of my clients, a young man from Haiti, came to see me wearing a rosary around his neck. I asked him if he prayed the rosary. He said, “No, this is the look now,” or something to that effect. At the end of our appointment, I found concise instructions on praying the rosary and printed them for him. I encouraged him to learn how to use that rosary.
So this became a teaching moment. I admit that I can’t stand seeing someone wearing the rosary as jewelry. (I am not including those from cultures that sincerely wear the rosary out of devotion.)
I think it would have been better for the young man to carry his grandmother’s Rosary in his shirt pocket, if the school was going to get all hyper about him wearing it around his neck.
@ gambletrainman: Yeah, I know what you mean about the over-baggy pants. The neighborhood where our little TLM chapel is located is in a rather ‘dicey’ part of town (I know: in March some lowlife smashed my car window when it was parked out in front of the chapel and stole two bags which were in the back seat…fortunately both were recovered in the tiny ‘back yard’ of the chapel, along with their contents, thanks to a sharp-eyed cop named MICHAEL…but I digress). I always saw these skinny young kids wearing pants that were slung low over their waists, so low I could glimpse their underwear. Disgusting….these were times when I would be sorely tempted to sneak up behind them and yank the pants down, too!
It’s even worse when the girls wear over-tight clothing! Who wants to see that? I sure don’t!
Just my opinion here. The Rosary is for praying, not for wearing as a piece of jewelry or an amulet.
I worked in a Catholic book and gift store in Dallas for about 7 years and there were many times that gang members came in to buy a rosary because they thought it would “protect” them in a gang war. Other customers, who I knew were sincere about “praying” the rosary, I would remind them to have the Rosary blessed; I would never tell a gang member to have the Rosary blessed by a priest or deacon. One has to be careful how they treat a sacramental.
Jeff, people don’t explain themselves well and since we don’t know his heart, so its a bit presumptuous to assume he sees it as a good luck charm.
@acardnal, From the StarTribune article,
Brings to mind those who hang the beads over their car’s rear-view mirror.
Actually, I have small rosary specifically designed to be hung over a rear-view mirror (it has one decade, and a clasp that can be fastened and unfastened, and it’s too big to wear as a bracelet, so clearly it was designed for a rear-view mirror). I bought it as a Catholic religious article store.
That said, I think incidents like this are are argument for school uniforms and for banning any kind of jewelry or — as the French do — banning any kind of religious symbols in public schools altogether.
I have seen ‘Goth’ teenagers wearing large crucifixes around their necks but certainly we can’t ban crucifixes because the ‘Goth’ tenns wear them for jewelry
Well, yes, you can — you simply ban students from wearing any kind of jewelry, period. Again, the argument for school uniforms asserts itself. Students can “express their individuality” outside of school, on their own time.
It may have been Bishop Fulton Sheen or maybe St Francis De Sales who commented that “wearing” virtue externally is more beautiful than jewelry. I actually like seeing others wear their sacramentals (Miraculous Medal, Cross etc) because I feel a camaraderie with them and I often wear a Miraculous Medal. There are many different cultural devotions as mentioned in these comments which are what make us Catholic. However, the sacramentals are meant to provide grace not only for protection but as an aid to the practice of virtues. The “wearing’ of the Christ-like and Mary-like virtues can be a powerful form of evangelization. As an OCDS we wear the small scapular beneath our clothing and only on meeting days is the larger scapular worn in the group, and never outside those times. There is a special mystery to having our cherished sacramentals beneath the clothing, or in our pockets, as a reminder to strive to become saints and confidence in God’s grace to get us there. Purity of intention trumps using these things as political statements which may generate unnecessary conflict. What I find truly objectionable are women wearing medals or crosses with low cut tops . It screams of a lack of modesty and a disrespect to the Lord. It is a very popular fashion today, even among good Catholic women.
Dear @albinus1,
the thing about banning religious symbols altogether is an argument for why not to have school uniforms. The French example is 100% in the spirit of the miserable 1905 Laicité Law, as any Frenchman will be first to explain to you. And indeed, for forbidding religious symbols I cannot see any other reason as this: “religion is private matter, in the public we’re secular”, an attitude that forbids itself. The French example is an example of what not to do.
[This is about the specific thing of religious symbols. That, as I said, this is an argument why not to have school uniforms, was really an aside and off-topic. However, here the explanation: They do after all have to be able to express something of their individuality, so why not more, decency being provided.]
I think it’s quite simple: any school can set and enforce a dress code; any school which bans items on an ad hoc basis risks lawsuits and bad press, and has earned them.
Can they?
Well, in a country where school is not an institution under supreme governance of the State with obligation of attendance, to be enforced by the police if necessary, maybe they can.
We are close to a devout Catholic principal of an at-risk charter school. He has had to crack down on this very issue. When the kids protest, he asks them to recite the mysteries. They can’t. |
Lazarus IDE Tools
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The IDE uses a library of Pascal source parsing and editing tools, called the "codetools". These tools provide features like Find Declaration, Code Completion, Extraction, Moving Inserting and Beautifying Pascal sources. These functions can save you a lot of time and duplicated work. They are customizable, and every feature is available via shortcuts (see Editor Options).
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For example:
interface procedure DoSomething; // procedure definition implementation procedure DoSomething; // procedure body begin end;
If the cursor is on the procedure body and you press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+↑, the cursor will jump to the definition. Pressing Ctrl+⇧ Shift+↑ again will jump to the body, after 'begin'.
This works between methods (procedures in classes) as well.
Hints: 'Method Jumping' jumps to the same procedure with the same name and parameter list. If there is no exact procedure, it jumps to the best candidate and positions the cursor on the first difference. (For Delphians: Delphi can not do this).
For example a procedure with different parameter types:
interface procedure DoSomething(p: char); // procedure definition implementation procedure DoSomething(p: string); // procedure body begin end;
Jumping from the definition to the body will position the cursor at the 'string' keyword. This can be used for renaming methods and/or changing the parameters.
For example:
You renamed 'DoSomething' to 'MakeIt':
interface procedure MakeIt; // procedure definition implementation procedure DoSomething; // procedure body begin end;
Then you jump from MakeIt to the body. The IDE searches for a fitting body, does not find one, and hence searches for a candidate. Since you renamed only one procedure there is exactly one body without definition (DoSomething) and so it will jump to DoSomething and position the cursor right on 'DoSomething'. Then you can simply rename it there too. This works for parameters as well.
Include Files
Include files are files inserted into sources with the {$I filename} or {$INCLUDE filename} compiler directive. Lazarus and FPC often uses include files to reduce redundancy and avoid unreadable {$IFDEF} constructs needed to support different platforms.
Contrary to Delphi, the Lazarus IDE has full support for include files. You can for example jump from the method in the .pas file to the method body in the include file. All codetools like code completion consider include files as special bounds.
For instance: When code completion adds a new method body behind another method body, it keeps them both in the same file. This way you can put whole class implementations in include files, as the LCL does for nearly all controls.
But there is a trap for newbies: If you open an include file for the first time and try method jumping or find declaration you will get an error. The IDE does not yet know to which unit the include file belongs. You must open the unit first.
As soon as the IDE parses the unit, it will parse the include directives there and the IDE will remember this relationship. It saves this information on exit and on project save to ~/.lazarus/includelinks.xml. The next time you open this include file and jump or do a find declaration, the IDE will internally open the unit and the jump will work. You can also hint the IDE by putting
{%mainunit yourunit.pas}
at the top of yourinclude.inc.
Of course this mechanism has limits. Some include files are included twice or more. For example: lcl/include/winapih.inc.
How you will jump from the procedure/method definitions in this include file to their bodies will depend on your last action. If you worked on lcl/lclintf.pp the IDE will jump to winapi.inc. If you worked on lcl/interfacebase.pp, then it will jump to lcl/include/interfacebase.inc (or one of the other include files). If you are working on both, then you can get confused. ;)
Code Templates
Code Templates converts an identifier into a text or code fragment.
Code Templates default short cut is Ctrl+J. You can type an identifier, press Ctrl+J and the identifier is replaced by the text defined for the identifier. Code Templates can be defined in Tools -> Options -> CodeTools.
Example: Write the identifier 'classf', leave the cursor right behind the 'f' and press Ctrl+J. The 'classf' will be replaced by
T = class(T) private public constructor Create; destructor Destroy; override; end;
and the cursor is behind the 'T'. You can get the list of templates by positioning the cursor on space (not on an identifier) and pressing Ctrl+J. The list of code templates will pop up. Use the cursor keys or type some chars to choose one. Return creates the selected template and Escape closes the pop up.
The biggest time savers are templates 'b'+Ctrl+J for begin..end.
Parameter Hints
Parameter Hints shows a hint box with the parameter declarations for the current parameter list.
For example
Canvas.FillRect(|);
Place the cursor in the brackets and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+space. A hint box will show up showing the parameters of FillRect.
Since 0.9.31 there is a button to the right of each declaration to insert the missing parameters.This will copy the parameter names from the chosen declaration to the cursor position.
Hint: Use the Variable Declaration Completion to declare the variables.
Incremental Search
Incremental Search changes the statusbar of the source editor. Type some characters and the editor will search and highlight immediately all occurrences in the text. Shortcut is Ctrl+e.
- For example pressing e will search and highlight all occurrences of 'e'.
- Then pressing t will search and highlight all occurrences of 'et' and so forth.
- You can jump to the next with F3 (or Ctrl+e while in search) and the previous with ⇧ Shift+F3.
- Backspace deletes the last character
- return stops the search without adding a new line in the editor.
- You can resume the last search by pressing Ctrl+e a second time, immediately after you started incr-search with Ctrl+e. that is while the search term is still empty.
- Paste Ctrl+V will append the text from the clipboard to the current search text (since lazarus 0.9.27 r19824).
Hint: Quick searching an identifier with incremental search
- Place text cursor on identifier (do not select anything)
- Press Ctrl+C. The source editor will select the identifier and copy it to the clipboard
- Press Ctrl+E to start incremental search
- Press Ctrl+V to search for the identifier (since 0.9.27)
- Use F3 and ⇧ Shift+F3 to quickly jump to next/previous.
- Use any key (for example cursor left or right) to end the search
Syncro Edit
Syncro Edit allows you to edit all occurrences of a word at the same time (synchronized). You simple edit the word in one place, and as you type, all other occurrences of the word are updated too.
Syncro Edit works on all words in a selected area:
- Select a block of text
- press Ctrl+J or click the icon in the gutter. (This only works, if there are any words that occur more than once in the selection.
- use the Tab ⇆ key to select the word you want to edit (if several different words occurred more than once)
- Edit the word
- Press Esc to finish
See an animated example here
Find next / previous word occurrence
The two functions can be found in the popup menu of the source editor
- Source editor / popup menu / Find / Find next word occurrence
- Source editor / popup menu / Find / Find previous word occurrence
And you can assign them shortcuts in the editor options.
Code Completion
Code Completion can be found in the IDE menu Edit -> Complete Code and has as standard short cut Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C.
For Delphians: Delphi calls "code completion" the function showing the list of identifiers at the current source position (Ctrl+Space). Under Lazarus this is called "Identifier completion".
Code Completion combines several powerful functions. Examples:
- Class Completion: completes properties, adds/updates method bodies, add private variables and private access methods
- Forward Procedure Completion: adds procedure bodies
- Event Assignment Completion: completes event assignments and adds method definition and body
- Variable Declaration Completion: adds local variable definitions
- Procedure Call Completion: adds a new procedure
- Reversed procedure completion: adds procedure declarations for procedure/function bodies
- Reversed Class Completion: adds method declarations for method bodies
Which function is used, depends on the cursor position in the editor and will be explained below.
Code Completion can be found in the IDE menu Edit -> Complete Code and has as standard short cut Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C.
Class Completion
The most powerful code completion feature is "Class Completion". You write a class, add the methods and properties and Code Completion will add the method bodies, the property access methods/variables and the private variables.
For example: Create a class (see Code Templates to save you some type work):
TExample = class(TObject) public constructor Create; destructor Destroy; override; end;
Position the cursor somewhere in the class and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C. This will create the method missing bodies and move the cursor to the first created method body, so you can just start writing the class code:
{ TExample } constructor TExample.Create; begin | end; destructor TExample.Destroy; begin inherited Destroy; end;
Hint: You can jump between a method and its body with Ctrl+⇧ Shift+↑.
You can see, that the IDE added the 'inherited Destroy' call too. This is done, if there is an 'override' keyword in the class definition.
Now add a method DoSomething:
TExample = class(TObject) public constructor Create; procedure DoSomething(i: integer); destructor Destroy; override; end;
Then press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C and the IDE will add
procedure TExample.DoSomething(i: integer); begin | end;
You can see, that the new method body is inserted between Create and Destroy, exactly as in the class definition. This way the bodies keep the same logical ordering as you define. You can define the insertion policy in Tools > Options -> Codetools -> Code Creation.
Complete Properties
Add a property AnInteger:
TExample = class(TObject) public constructor Create; procedure DoSomething(i: integer); destructor Destroy; override; property AnInteger: Integer; end;
Press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C and you will get:
procedure TExample.SetAnInteger(const AValue: integer); begin |if FAnInteger=AValue then exit; FAnInteger:=AValue; end;
The code completion has added a Write access modifier and added some common code. Jump to the class with Ctrl+⇧ Shift+↑ to see the new class:
TExample = class(TObject) private FAnInteger: integer; procedure SetAnInteger(const AValue: integer); public constructor Create; procedure DoSomething(i: integer); destructor Destroy; override; property AnInteger: integer read FAnInteger write SetAnInteger; end;
The property was extended by a Read and Write access modifier. The class got the new section 'private' with a Variable 'FAnInteger' and the method 'SetAnInteger'. It is a common Delphi style rule to prepend private variables with an 'F' and the write method with a 'Set'. If you don't like that, you can change this in Tools -> Options > Codetools -> Code Creation.
Creating a read only property:
property PropName: PropType read;
Will be expanded to
property PropName: PropType read FPropName;
Creating a write only property:
property PropName: PropType write;
Will be expanded to
property PropName: PropType write SetPropName;
Creating a read only property with a Read method:
property PropName: PropType read GetPropName;
Will be kept and a GetPropName function will be added:
function GetpropName: PropType;
Creating a property with a stored modifier:
property PropName: PropType stored;
Will be expanded to
property PropName: PropType read FPropName write SetPropName stored PropNameIsStored;
Because stored is used for streaming read and write modifiers are automatically added as well.
Hint: Identifier completion also recognizes incomplete properties and will suggest the default names. For example:
property PropName: PropType read |;
Place the cursor one space behind the 'read' keyword and press Ctrl+Space for the identifier completion. It will present you the variable 'FPropName' and the procedure 'SetPropName'.
Forward Procedure Completion
"Forward Procedure Completion" is part of the Code Completion and adds missing procedure bodies. It is invoked, when the cursor is on a forward defined procedure.
For example: Add a new procedure to the interface section:
procedure DoSomething;
Place the cursor on it and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. It will create in the implementation section:
procedure DoSomething; begin | end;
Hint: You can jump between a procedure definition and its body with Ctrl+⇧ Shift+↑.
The new procedure body will be added in front of the class methods. If there are already some procedures in the interface the IDE tries to keep the ordering. For example:
procedure Proc1; procedure Proc2; // new proc procedure Proc3;
If the bodies of Proc1 and Proc3 already exists, then the Proc2 body will be inserted between the bodies of Proc1 and Proc3. This behaviour can be setup in Tools -> Options -> Codetools -> Code Creation.
Multiple procedures:
procedure Proc1_Old; // body exists procedure Proc2_New; // body does not exists procedure Proc3_New; // " procedure Proc4_New; // " procedure Proc5_Old; // body exists
Code Completion will add all 3 procedure bodies (Proc2_New, Proc3_New, Proc4_New).
Why calling it "Forward Procedure Completion"?
Because it does not only work for procedures defined in the interface, but for procedures with the "forward" modifier as well. And because the codetools treats procedures in the interface as having an implicit 'forward' modifier.
Event Assignment Completion
"Event Assignment Completion" is part of the Code Completion and completes a single Event:=| statement. It is invoked, when the cursor is behind an assignment to an event.
For example: In a method, say the FormCreate event, add a line 'OnPaint:=':
procedure TForm1.Form1Create(Sender: TObject); begin OnPaint:=| end;
The '|' is the cursor and should not be typed. Then press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. The statement will be completed to
OnPaint:=@Form1Paint;
A new method Form1Paint will be added to the TForm1 class. Then class completion is started and you get:
procedure TForm1.Form1Paint(Sender: TObject); begin | end;
This works just like adding methods in the object inspector.
Note: You must place the cursor behind the ':=' assignment operator. If you place the cursor on the identifier (e.g. OnPaint) code completion will invoke "Local Variable Completion", which fails, because OnPaint is already defined.
Hint:
You can define the new method name by yourself. For example:
OnPaint:=@ThePaintMethod;
Since 0.9.31 Lazarus completes procedure parameters. For example
procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); var List: TList; begin List:=TList.Create; List.Sort(@MySortFunction|); end;
Place the cursor on 'MySortFunction' and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. You get a new procedure:
function MySortFunction(Item1, Item2: Pointer): Integer; begin | end; procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); var List: TList; begin List:=TList.Create; List.Sort(@MySortFunction); end;
Variable Declaration Completion
"Variable Declaration Completion" is part of the Code Completion and adds a local variable definition for a Identifier:=Term; statement. It is invoked, when the cursor is on the identifier of an assignment or a parameter.
For example:
procedure TForm1.Form1Create(Sender: TObject); begin i:=3; end;
Place the cursor on the 'i' or just behind it. Then press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion and you will get:
procedure TForm1.Form1Create(Sender: TObject); var i: Integer; begin i:=3; end;
The codetools first checks, if the identifier 'i' is already defined and if not it will add the declaration 'var i: integer;'. The type of the identifier is guessed from the term right to the assignment ':=' operator. Numbers like the 3 defaults to Integer.
Another example:
type TWhere = (Behind, Middle, InFront); procedure TForm1.Form1Create(Sender: TObject); var a: array[TWhere] of char; begin for Where:=Low(a) to High(a) do writeln(a[Where]); end;
Place the cursor on 'Where' and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. You get:
procedure TForm1.Form1Create(Sender: TObject); var a: array[TWhere] of char; Where: TWhere; begin for Where:=Low(a) to High(a) do writeln(a[Where]); end;
Since 0.9.11 Lazarus also completes parameters. For example
procedure TForm1.FormPaint(Sender: TObject); begin with Canvas do begin Line(x1,y1,x2,y2); end; end;
Place the cursor on 'x1' and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. You get:
procedure TForm1.FormPaint(Sender: TObject); var x1: integer; begin with Canvas do begin Line(x1,y1,x2,y2); end; end;
Since 0.9.31 Lazarus completes pointer parameters. For example
procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); begin CreateIconIndirect(@IconInfo); end;
Place the cursor on 'IconInfo' and press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C for code completion. You get:
procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); var IconInfo: TIconInfo; begin CreateIconIndirect(@IconInfo); end;
Procedure Call Completion
Code completion can create a new procedure from a call statement itself.;
It does not yet create functions nor methods.
Reversed Class Completion
"Reversed Class Completion" is part of the Code Completion and adds a private method declaration for the current method body. It is invoked, when the cursor is in a method body, not yet defined in the class. This feature is available since Lazarus 0.9.21.
For example:
procedure TForm1.DoSomething(Sender: TObject); begin end;
The method DoSomething is not yet declared in TForm1. Press Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C and the IDE will add "procedure DoSomething(Sender: TObject);" to the private methods of TForm1.
For Delphians: Class completion works under Lazarus always in one way: From class interface to implementation or backwards/reversed from class implementation to interface. Delphi always invokes both directions. The Delphi way has the disadvantage, that if a typo will easily create a new method stub without noticing.
Code completion tries to keep comments where they belong. For example:
FList: TList; // list of TComponent FInt: integer;
When inserting a new variable between FList and FInt, the comment is kept in the FList line. Same is true for
FList: TList; { list of TComponent This is a comment over several lines, starting in the FList line, so codetools assumes it belongs to the FLIst line and will not break this relationship. Code is inserted behind the comment. } FInt: integer;
If the comment starts in the next line, then it will be treated as if it belongs to the code below. For example:
FList: TList; // list of TComponent { This comment belongs to the statement below. New code is inserted above this comment and behind the comment of the FList line. } FInt: integer;
Method update
Normally class completion will add all missing method bodies. (Since 0.9.27) But if exactly one method differ between class and bodies then the method body is updated. For example: You have a method DoSomething.
public procedure DoSomething; end; procedure TForm.DoSomething; begin end;
Now add a parameter:
public procedure DoSomething(i: integer); end;
and invoke Code Completion (Ctrl+⇧ Shift+C). The method body will be updated and the new parameter will be copied:
procedure TForm.DoSomething(i: integer); begin end;
Refactoring
Invert Assignments
- Abstract
- : "Invert Assignments" takes some selected pascal statements and inverts all assignments from this code. This tool is usefull for transforming a "save" code to a "load" one and inverse operation.
Example:
procedure DoSomething; begin AValueStudio:= BValueStudio; AValueAppartment :=BValueAppartment; AValueHouse:=BValueHouse; end;
Select the lines with assignments (between begin and end) and do Invert Assignments. All assignments will be inverted and identation will be add automatically. For example:
Result:
procedure DoSomething; begin BValueStudio := AValueStudio; BValueAppartment := AValueAppartment; BValueHouse := AValueHouse; end;
Enclose Selection
Select some text and invoke it. A dialog will popup where you can select if the selection should be enclosed into try..finally or many other common blocks.
Rename Identifier
Place the cursor on an identifier and invoke it. A dialog will appear, where you can setup the search scope and the new name.
- It will rename all occurences and only those that actually use this declaration. That means it does not rename declarations with the same name.
- And it will first check for name conflicts.
- Limits: It only works on pascal sources, does not yet rename files nor adapt lfm/lrs files nor lazdoc files.
Find Identifier References
Place the cursor on an identifier and invoke it. A dialog will appear, where you can setup the search scope. The IDE will then search for all occurences and only those that actually use this declaration. That means it does not show other declarations with the same name.
Show abstract methods
This feature lists and auto completes virtual, abstracts methods that need to be implemented. Place the cursor on a class declaration and invoke it. If there are missing abstract methods a dialog will appear listing them. Select the methods to implement and the IDE creates the method stubs.
Extract Procedure
Find Declaration
Position the cursor on an identifier and do 'Find Declaration'. Then it will search the declaration of this identifier, open the file and jump to it. If the cursor is already at a declaration it will jump to the previous declaration with the same name. This allows to find redefinitions and overrides.
Every find declaration sets a Jump Point. That means you jump with find declaration to the declaration and easily jump back with Search -> Jump back.
There are some differences to Delphi: The codetools work on sources following the normal pascal rules, instead of using the compiler output. The compiler returns the final type. The codetools see the sources and all steps in between. For example:
The Visible property is first defined in TControl (controls.pp), then redefined in TCustomForm and finally redefined in TForm. Invoking find declaration on Visible will you first bring to Visible in TForm. Then you can invoke Find Declaration again to jump to Visible in TCustomForm and again to jump to Visible in TControl.
Same is true for types like TColor. For the compiler it is simply a 'longint'. But in the sources it is defined as
TGraphicsColor = -$7FFFFFFF-1..$7FFFFFFF; TColor = TGraphicsColor;
And the same for forward defined classes: For instance in TControl, there is a private variable
FHostDockSite: TWinControl;
Find declaration on TWinControl jumps to the forward definition
TWinControl = class;
And invoking it again jumps to the real implementation
TWinControl = class(TControl)
This way you can track down every identifier and find every overload.
Hints:
- You can jump back with Ctrl+H.
- You can view/navigate all visited locations via Menu: View -> "jump history"
- With a 5 button Mouse you can use the 2 extra buttons to go forward/backward between the visited points
- (you can remap the buttons using advanced mouse options)
Identifier Completion
"Identifier Completion" is invoked by Ctrl+space. It shows all identifiers in scope. For example:
procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); begin | end;
Place the cursor between begin and end and press Ctrl+space. The IDE/CodeTools will now parse all reachable code and present you a list of all found identifiers. The CodeTools cache the results, so invoking it a second time will be much faster.
Some identifiers like 'Write', 'ReadLn', 'Low', 'SetLength', 'Self', 'Result', 'Copy' are built into the compiler and are not defined anywhere in source. The identifier completion has a lot of these things built in as well. If you find one missing, just create a feature request in the bug tracker.
Identifier completion does not complete all keywords. So you can not use it to complete 'repe' to 'repeat'. For these things use Ctrl+W Word Completion or Ctrl+J Code Templates. Since 0.9.27 identifier completion completes some keywords.
Identifier completion shows even those identifiers, that are not compatible.
Matching only the first part of a word
You can invoke identifier completion only on the first few characters in a word. Position the cursor within a word. Only characters to the left of the cursor will be used to look up identifiers. For example:
procedure TForm1.FormCreate(Sender: TObject); begin Ca|ption end;
The box will show you only identifiers beginning with 'Ca' ( | indicates the cursor position).
Keys
- Letter or number: add the character to the source editor and the current prefix. This will update the list.
- Backspace: remove the last character from source editor and prefix. Updates the list.
- Return: replace the whole word at cursor with the selected identifier and close the popup window.
- Shift+Return: as Return, but replaces only the prefix (left part) of the word at the cursor.
- Up/Down: move selection
- Escape: close popup without change
- Tab: completes the prefix to next choice. For example: The current prefix is 'But' and the identifier completion only shows 'Button1' and 'Button1Click'. Then pressing Tab will complete the prefix to 'Button1'.
- Else: as Return and add the character to the source editor
Methods
When cursor is in a class definition and you identifier complete a method defined in an ancestor class the parameters and the override keyword will be added automatically. For example:
TMainForm = class(TForm) protected mous| end;
Completing MouseDown gives:
TMainForm = class(TForm) protected procedure MouseDown(Button: TMouseButton; Shift: TShiftState; X, Y: Integer); override; end;
Properties
property MyInt: integer read |;
Identifier completion will show FMyInt and GetMyInt.
property MyInt: integer write |;
Identifier completion will show FMyInt and SetMyInt.
Uses section / Unit names
In uses sections the identifier completion will show the filenames of all units in the search path. These will show all lowercase (e.g. avl_tree), because most units have lowercase filenames. On completion it will insert the nice case of the unit (e.g. AVL_Tree).
Statements
procedure TMainForm.Button1Click(Sender: TObject); begin ModalRe|; end;
becomes:
procedure TMainForm.Button1Click(Sender: TObject); begin ModalResult:=|; end;
Word Completion
"Word Completion" is invoked by Ctrl+W. It shows all words of all currently open editors and can therefore be used in non pascal sources, in comments and for keywords.
Otherwise it works the same as identifier completion.
Goto Include Directive
"Goto Include Directive" in the search menu of the IDE jumps to {$I filename} statement where the current include file is used. can contain".
Note: Since version 0.9.13 there is a new Project Option that allows you to store session information in a seperate file from the normal .lpi file. This new file ends with the .lps extension and only contains session information, which will leave your .lpi file much cleaner.
In the dialog you can setup a filter to include and exclude certain files; with the command after you can compress the output into one archive.
Hints from comments
At several places the IDE shows hints for an identifier. For example when moving the mouse over an identifier in the source editor and waiting a few seconds. When the IDE shows a hints for an identifier it searches the declaration and all its ancestors and looks for comments and fpdoc files. There are many coding styles and many commenting styles. In order to support many of the common comment styles the IDE uses the following heuristics:
Comments in front of a declaration, without empty line and not starting with the < sign:
var {Comment} Identifier: integer;
var identifier, // Comment other,
var identifier: char; // Comment
An example for < sign:
const a = 1; //< comment for a b = 2; // comment for c c = 3;
All three comment types are supported:
{Comment}(*Comment*)//Comment c = 1;
Comments in front separated with an empty line are treated as not specific to the following identifier. For example the following class header comment is not shown in the hint:
type { TMyClass } TMyClass = class
The class header comments are created on class completion. You can turn this off in the Options / Codetools / Class completion / Header comment for class. If you want to show the header comment in the hint, just remove the empty line.
The following comment will be shown for GL_TRUE, but not for GL_FALSE:
// Boolean GL_TRUE = 1; GL_FALSE = 0; |
Policy User Guide
Table of Contents
1. AFRL DSRC Use Policy
1.1. Interactive Use
Interactive usage of each of the AFRL DSRC High Performance Computing (HPC) systems is restricted to 15 minutes of CPU time per processor. Any interactive job/process that exceeds this 15-minute CPU time limit will automatically be killed by system monitoring software. Interactive usage on AFRL DSRC HPC systems should be limited to items such as: program development, including debugging and performance improvement, job preparation, job submission, and the preprocessing and post-processing of data.
AFRL DSRC HPC systems have been tuned for optimal performance in a batch system environment. Excessive interactive usage causes overloading of these systems and leads to considerable degradation of system performance.
1.2. Session Lifetime
To provide users with a more secure high performance computing environment, the AFRL DSRC has implemented changes that limit the lifetime of all terminal/window sessions. Any idle terminal or window session connections to the AFRL DSRC shall be terminated after 10 hours. Regardless of activity, any terminal or window session connections to the AFRL DSRC shall be terminated after 20 hours. A 15 minute warning message shall be sent to each such session prior to its termination.
1.3. Batch Use
The primary resource to schedule jobs on all systems is the CPU-hour (CPH). The CPH limit per user per project for a system is defined by multiplying half of the advertised number of system processors by forty-eight (48) hours; this value may be rounded for convenience. For example, a system comprised of 2048 processors distributed among its nodes would have a CPH limit of 1024 processors times 48 hours, which is approximately 50,000 CPU-hours.
In the case where a system has nodes with more memory (large memory nodes) than other nodes, the scheduler will place jobs requiring more memory than the default memory per processor on the large memory nodes. To accomplish this, the user must provide both the cpu and memory requirement arguments on the "bsub" command.
Due to limitations in resource checking, the scheduler will allocate processors and memory as multiples of an indivisible process unit (consisting of processors or cores and an amount of shared memory); in some cases, this process unit will consist of more than one processor or core. If the requested number of processors and memory is not an even multiple of process units, these resource requests will be increased to match the equivalent number of process units.
Although every attempt will be made to keep entire systems available, interrupts will occur, and more frequently on nodes with larger numbers of processors. Users should use mechanisms to save the state of their jobs where available (most AFRL DSRC-supported applications can create restart files so that runs do not have to start from the beginning) to protect against system interrupts. Users running long jobs without saving the state of their jobs run at-risk with respect to system interrupts. Use of system-level check pointing is not recommended.
All HPC systems have identical queue names: standard, debug, and background; however, each queue has different properties as specified in the Table 1. Each of these queues is assigned a priority factor within the batch system. Within the standard queue, job classes (urgent, high, challenge and standard) are also assigned a priority factor. The relative priorities of the queues and job classes are shown in Table 2. In addition, jobs using more processors will receive higher priority within a given job class. The scheduling of jobs uses job slot-reservation based on these priority factors, and increases system utilization via backfilling while waiting for resources to become available.
In conjunction with the HPCMP Baseline Configuration policy for Common Queue Names across the allocated centers, the AFRL DSRC will honor batch jobs that include the queue name for urgent, high (high priority) and challenge. Although the Job Class Priority will still be assigned by the project, the batch script for LSF using one of the Common Queue Names will be accepted. Note: if the project number does not match the Job Class or queue, the job will run in the class assigned by the project number, and not by the queue name selected.
Any project with an allocation may submit jobs to the background queue. Projects that have exhausted their allocations will only be able to submit jobs to the background queue. A background job cannot start if there is a foreground job waiting in any queue.
If any job attempts to use more resources than were specified when the job was submitted for batch processing, the center staff reserves the right to kill that job and provide the user with a rationale. Center staff also reserves the right to manage system utilization as they deem appropriate.
1.4. Special Requests
All special requests for allocated HPC resources, including increased priority within queues, increased queue parameters for maximum number of CPUS and Wall Time, and dedicated use, should be directed to the Consolidated Customer Assistance Center. Request approval will require documentation of the requirement and associated justification, verification by the AFRL DSRC Computational Technology Center staff and PETTT lead, and approval from the designated authority, as shown in the following Table. The AFRL DSRC Director may permit special requests for HPC resources independent of this model for exceptional circumstances.
1.5. Contact Information
If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact CCAC at: 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via email at [email protected].
1.6. Subject to Change Notice
The policies set forth in this document are subject to change without prior notice.
2. User Account Removal Policy
This policy covers both the removal of user accounts for the previous fiscal year (1 October through 30 September) and of user accounts during the course of the current fiscal year when deemed necessary by Security, an S/AAA, or the Accounts Center.
(The AFRL DSRC Accounts Center is responsible for the management of user accounts created for the AFRL DSRC.)
In order to get an AFRL DSRC account, users need to have completed the following:
Submitted completed NAC/Clearance information to the AFRL DSRC Facilities Security Officer (FSO).
Submitted an application for a current fiscal year for a project that has been validated by the High Performance Computing Modernization Office (HPCMO), and on which the HPCMO has specified systems and hours.
Projects and allocations are sent by the HPCMO to the DoD Supercomputing Resource Centers (DSRCs) and Affiliated Resource Centers (ARCs) in mid-summer of the year preceding a new fiscal year. Applications from qualified users, approved and sent by S/AAAs), begin to be received by the DSRCs and ARCs immediately afterward for the upcoming fiscal year.
All user accounts are required to be renewed on a fiscal year basis. At the beginning of a new fiscal year, all previous fiscal year user accounts that have not been renewed for the current fiscal year, will be placed in a disabled state. This disabling of a user account will start a countdown of 90 days. If after those 90 days, no applications have been received for the new fiscal year, then the disabled user accounts will be changed to removed status. After 90 days, if no applications have been received for the new fiscal year, then these accounts will automatically be removed. All files associated with these user accounts will be moved to an archive storage area for a period of two years. After two years, these removed user account files will be deleted. Returning users whose user accounts and files were removed under these procedures, must go through the application procedures to establish a user account through an S/AAA and must request in writing to have their removed files restored. Deleted files cannot be restored.
During the fiscal year, the above procedures will be used for existing user accounts when required.
If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact the CCAC Accounts Center at: 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via email at [email protected].
3. Information Interchange Policy
The key methods that the AFRL DSRC uses to communicate announcements and important information to our users about HPC systems and the environment include:
- Mass emails sent to all users or those assigned to a particular HPC system
- Message of the day (MOTD) notices posted on the AFRL DSRC public site at
- System login messages posted to the appropriate HPC systems.
It is vital to the AFRL DSRC's communication process, and mutually beneficial to our users, to understand the responsibilities of being a good citizen of the AFRL DSRC. We ask that users:
- Please read the MOTD upon each login to the environment. A summary of a system event or update may direct users to the AFRL DSRC public website, or to a mass email that has been sent to the user's email on record.
- Please keep the AFRL DSRC apprised of current email addresses. This way we can assure that vital information about our Center reaches us. A user profile can be updated within the portal to the Information Environment (pIE). Please note that if the email address supplied to pIE is behind a firewall, users will need to arrange for their local system administrator to allow email from their work site to pass through the firewall boundary to the AFRL DSRC.
- Please check the website, which has up to date current news and information on topics such as HPC resources' availability, upcoming training opportunities, or updates to our user guides and the policies and procedures documentation.
Comments or questions are welcomed. These can be submitted by contacting CCAC at 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via email at [email protected].
4. System Availability Policy
A system will be declared down and made unavailable to users whenever a chronic and/or catastrophic hardware and/or software malfunction or an abnormal computer environment condition exists which could:
- Result in corruption of user data.
- Result in unpredictable and/or inaccurate runtime results.
- Result in a violation of the integrity of the DSRC user environment specified in the AFRL DSRC User Guide.
- Result in damage to the High Performance Computer System(s).
The integrity of the user environment defined in the AFRL DSRC User Guide is considered corrupt anytime a user must modify his/her normal operation while logged into the DSRC. Examples of malfunctions are:
- User Network File System (NFS) mounted home ($HOME) directory not available.
- User /workspace ($WRK, $WORK_DIR) areas not available.
- One or more of the users files differ when viewed from different DSRC systems.
- If MSAS is unavailable, queues are suspended but logins are enabled.
When a system is declared down, based on a System Administrators and/or Computer Operators judgment, users will be prevented from using the affected system(s) and all existing batch jobs will be prevented from running. Only users personally instructed on the use of a temporary, modified DSRC environment will be allowed access to the downed system to submit new jobs. Batch jobs held during a "down state" will be run only after the system DSRC environment returns to a normal state.
Whenever there is a problem on one of the HPC systems that could be remedied by removing a part of the system from production (an activity called draining), it must first be determined how much of the system will be impacted by the draining in order to brief the necessary levels of management and the user community.
Where the architecture of the HPC system will allow a node to be removed from production with minimal impact to the system as a whole, then the system administrators can make the decision to remove the node with notification to the operators for information. Typically this pertains to cluster system architectures. In some cases, large SMP systems will allow individual CPUs to be downed, and the administrator can determine this and notify operations for information.
Where the architecture of the HPC system will allow significant portions of the system to be removed from production and still allow user production on a large part of the system to continue, then the system administrator along with government and contractor management can make the decision to remove that part of the system. The system should show that domain or SMP node as out of the normal queue for scheduling jobs so that the user community can determine current status. The system administrator will advise operations and the help center of this action.
In cases where workspace will be unavailable, or a complete system needs to be drained for maintenance, contractor and government director level management will be notified. In cases involving an entire system, user services will provide an MOTD and email to notify users of the downtime schedule and schedule for returning the system to production.
If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact CCAC at: 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via email at [email protected].
5. Workspace Policy
The maintenance policy described herein was implemented on 10 January 2000.
5.1. /workspace
/workspace is the local temporary file system (i.e., local high-speed disk) that is available on all AFRL DSRC high performance computing (HPC) systems and is available to all users.
/workspace is not intended to be used as a permanent file storage area by users.
/workspace is intended to be used by executing programs to perform file I/O that is local to that system in order to avoid performing slower file I/O across a network mounted file system, such as a user's home ($HOME) and archive ($ARC) directories.
The /workspace file system is NOT backed up or exported to any other system. In the event of file or directory structure deletion or a catastrophic disk failure, such files and directory structures are lost.
It is the users responsibility to transfer files that need to be saved to a location that allows for permanent file storage, such as the users archival ($ARC) or home ($HOME) directory locations. Please note that a users archival storage area has no disk quota assigned to it, while a users home directory area has a disk quota assigned.
5.2. Creation and Access of User /workspace Directory
Each user is assigned ownership of a /workspace sub-directory named /workspace/username, where username is the user's AFRL DSRC login name. This sub-directory will be created for the user at login via the AFRL DSRC global .cshrc file whenever appropriate.
The environment variable $WRK is created to point to the user's /workspace/username directory. For example, to access $WRK from the command line type cd $WRK.
When a batch job is executed, the environment variable $WORK_DIR is created and points to the users /workspace/username/jobid directory. Jobid is the job identifier number assigned by the batch submittal process.
It is recommended that user batch jobs perform the following steps:
- Copy needed input data files from your archive ($ARC) directory or home ($HOME) directory to either $WRK or $WORK_DIR. (Using $WORK_DIR is recommended.)
- Execute your program.
- Copy output data files to be saved from $WRK or $WORK_DIR to either your archive ($ARC) directory or your home ($HOME) directory. Then delete the files from $WRK and $WORK_DIR in order to keep the /workspace file system from becoming too full.
Sample batch submission scripts incorporating these steps are available for each HPC system.
5.3. /workspace Maintenance
In order to provide sufficient free /workspace disk space to our users, the following /workspace maintenance policy will be implemented on all HPC systems on 10 January 2000:
- A /workspace scrubber program will run every day on all HPC systems.
- All files and directory structures in the $WRK directory location that are older than N day(s) are subject to deletion. $WORK_DIR is part of $WRK and is an exception that is noted below.
All files and directory structures in the $WORK_DIR directory location are subject to deletion once they have aged more than N day(s) after the completion of the batch job associated with the $WORK_DIR directory.
The value of N is 30 for the Cray XE6 (raptor) system.
For each system, a value of N was selected that would be large enough to allow users to retain temporary files and directory structures in /workspace but small enough to prevent, except under periods of unusually high volume, the need to delete files and directory structures less than N days old. Because workload varies, system administrators may need, on occasion, to delete /workspace files and directory structures less than N days old, until sufficient disk space is freed up. To minimize the times when early deletion of /workspace files and directory structures is required, users are encouraged to use /workspace efficiently and economically.
If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact CCAC at: 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via email at [email protected].
6. Data Import and Export Policy
This policy outlines the methods available to users to move files into and out of the AFRL DSRC environment. Users accept sole responsibility for the transfer and validation of their data after the transfer.
6.1. Network File Transfer
The preferred transfer method is file transfers over the network using the encrypted (Kerberos) file transfer programs rcp, scp, or ftp. In cases where large numbers of files (> 1000) and/or large amounts of data (> 100 GB) are required to be transferred, users should contact the Consolidated Customer Assistance Center for assistance in the process. Depending on the nature of the transfer, transfer time may be improved by reordering the data retrieval from tapes, taking advantage of available bandwidth to/from the Center, or dividing the transfer into smaller parts; the AFRL DSRC staff will assist the users to the extent that they are able. Limitations such as available resources and network problems outside the Center can be expected, and the user should allow sufficient time to do the transfers.
6.2. Reading/Writing Media
There are currently no facilities or provisions as available to import or export user data on tape with the resources of the mass storage/archival system.
If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact CCAC at: 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or via e-mail at [email protected].
7. Password Sharing Policy
Users are responsible for all password(s), account(s), YubiKey, SecurIDTM card, hToken and associated Personal Identification Number (PIN(s)) issued to them. Users are not to share these password(s), account(s), YubiKey, SecurIDTM card, hToken, and/or PIN(s) with any other individual for any reason. It is a violation of the contract (Section III of the account application form) that users are required to sign in order to obtain access to DoD High Performance Computing Modernization Program (HPCMP) computational resources.
Upon discovery/notification of a violation of the above policy, the following actions will be taken:
- The account (i.e., username) will be disabled. No further logins will be permitted.
- All account assets will be frozen. File and directory permissions will be set such that no other users can gain access to the account assets.
- Any executing jobs will be permitted to complete; however, any jobs residing in input queues will be deleted.
- The Service/Agency Approval Authority (S/AAA) who authorized the account, will be notified of the policy violation and the actions taken.
Upon the first occurrence of a violation of the above policy, the S/AAA has the authority to request that the account be re-enabled. Upon the occurrence of a second or subsequent violation of the above policy, the account will only be re-enabled if the users supervisory chain of command, S/AAA, and the High Performance Computing Modernization Office (HPCMO) all agree that the account should be re-enabled.
The disposition of account assets will be determined by the S/AAA. The S/AAA can:
- Request that account assets be transferred to another account.
- Request that account assets be returned to the user.
- Request that account assets be deleted and the account closed.
If there are associate investigators who need access to AFRL DSRC computer resources, we encourage them to apply for an account. Separate account holders may access common project data as authorized by the project leader.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding this policy, please feel free to contact CCAC at 1-877-CCAC-039 (1-877-222-2039) or by e-mail at [email protected]. |
Cool News
Is James Gunn Closing In On The First Of His GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY?!?!
The first domino to fall for Marvel's GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY might not be too far off, as the studio moves to sign a handful of actors to test deals for the role of Star-Lord/Peter Quill, the half-man, half-alien leader of the Guardians.
On director James Gunn's short list of candidates for the time being, according to Variety's Jeff Sneider, are Joel Edgerton, Jack Huston (BOARDWALK EMPIRE), Jim Sturgess, Lee Pace (THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN PART 2 and THE HOBBIT) and Eddie Redmayne (LES MISERABLES). Each of them will be brought in to test for the part, if they haven't already, and, from there, perhaps one of them lands the lead role, or maybe none of them are right in Gunn's mind, and the search continues.
The main component of this is that Gunn and Marvel Studios are moving quickly to start locking up the cast of a film that isn't set to hit theatres until 2014. I've got a feeling Rocket Racoon can't be too far off.
-Billy Donnelly
"The Infamous Billy The Kidd"
[email protected]
Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Follow @infamouskidd
Readers Talkbackcomments powered by Disqus
+ Expand All
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:01 a.m. CST
Even as a total Marvel fanboy (not so much boy anymore), this one is a weird one. Especially with Star Wars in the same MouseHouse.
by DidntPullOutInTimeCop
There's room for both, I guess.
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:06 a.m. CST
Live-Action or Animated?
by Tempermental
Please, someone, clear this us for me. I can't get a straight answer.
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:11 a.m. CST
I'm still not sold on Gunn
by thelordofhell
His biggest work was Slither for gawd's sake..........
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:13 a.m. CST
tempermental
by DidntPullOutInTimeCop
the raccoon and the tree will be live action, the rest animated. I was under the impression it's live action?
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:23 a.m. CST
Jason Statham for Rocket Raccoon!!!
by BloodiedFox
You know it to be true...
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:27 a.m. CST
I don't know any of those actors.... It sounds like they're just going for someone cheap and slightly known?
by happybunni
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:30 a.m. CST
This mean I am admitting to having watched it
by Bass Ackwards
But, Lee Pace was kind of awesome in the new Twilight movie (to be fair, I only watched it at the urging of the "How Did This Get Made" podcast).
I say use claymation. I have read more often that it's going to be animated - though I don't see how that fits into Marvel's bigger plans.
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:41 a.m. CST
tempermental
by DidntPullOutInTimeCop
where, outside of comments from anonymous comments on talkbacks, have you read that it's going to be animated?
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:43 a.m. CST
Michael Rooker as Rocket Raccoon.
by Roketopunch
Do it Gunn! It's his destiny!
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:58 a.m. CST
by DidntPullOutInTimeCop
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:11 a.m. CST
Is it racist for me to want Chris Rock for Rocket Racoon?
by the Green Gargantua
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:12 a.m. CST
I can't help but feel that the inclusion of Rocket Raccoon will mean that i'll be sharing the cinema with a SHITLOAD of stoners...
by Sean
Which will be great for snack bar profits, but far from great for me.
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:13 a.m. CST
I was stoned when I typed that, are in the house?
by the Green Gargantua
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:15 a.m. CST
I hope it goes to Joel Edgerton
by javery56
In SFX's Marvel preview, I think. Total Film as well. My memory is, uh, kind of spotty, though I am certain it was from a good source, not talkback.
-
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:25 a.m. CST
Live-Action For Sure
by Tempermental
Seems Marvel confirmed this a few weeks ago, and the articles stating otherwise were in error. And yes, I understand the tree and the raccoon will be CGI . . . or will they?
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:40 a.m. CST
green gargantua
by Johnboy40
You are right on the racoon. You either go with the chris rock, type of caricaturisation (obviously not like the two racist caricatures in transformers), or you go the other route and have clint eastwood type of character. I like the Chris rock style route, but its a fine line between character and racist caricature, so i suspect it wouldn't be risked Hopefully the tree and racoon will be a combo of CG and animatronic (like treebeard was)
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:09 a.m. CST
Jack Huston from acting royalty is amazing as Richard on BE
by Cosmik
Grandson of John Huston, nephew of Angelica. His performance as Richard Harrow, the war veteran sniper with half a face is the most interesting part of Boardwalk Empire. I fear he goes out in a blaze of glory this week. I'd love to seem him get a big role in a big movie.
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:50 a.m. CST
I'd definitely pick Huston off that list, he does amazingly good work on Boardwalk Empire
by Stegman84
He's earned his shot. Of the rest, I could live with either Edgerton or Redmayne (who was really great in Pillars of the Earth), both are quality actors, but yeah, Huston would be my number one pick.
Nov. 29, 2012, 5:17 a.m. CST
In a perfect world, Either Marvel or Star Wars
by chronicallydepressedlemming
would be owned by Universal and the other remain at Disney. At least then we'd get some real competitiveness going. I'm also worried what Marvel being a Disney property means for the awesome Spiderman ride at Universal Island of Adventure. I fucking hate Disney world with its outdated rides and tech. I went purely because you have to go at least once, right? But the rides are just such a let down with some of the worst animatronics I've ever seen. Universal is so much better! They might have some outdated animatronics themselves (Jurrasic Park ride anyone?) but at least they add new stuff using all the latest tools of the trade. And Disney? Their 'updated' Pirates of the Caribbean ride post-movies is fucking dire. "Oh look its a Johnny Depp mannequin popping out of a barrel over and over!" It's like some backwoods community museum!
Nov. 29, 2012, 5:21 a.m. CST
Huston, primed for stardom, been saying this for ages
by Sean
He just needed one big role
Nov. 29, 2012, 6:13 a.m. CST
Gunn is a pig
by ellid
And this movie has "disaster" written all over it. Anyone who thinks it's a good idea is going to be sadly disappointed.
Nov. 29, 2012, 6:22 a.m. CST
I only know two of those, but I'm pulling for Joel Edgerton
by D.Vader
Jim Sturgess??? Please.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7 a.m. CST
guardians of which Galaxy..? there's like quite a few out there...and who in their right mind would pick a raccoon to guard a galaxy????
by cameron
Fuck 'em.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:09 a.m. CST
I have the perfect voice for the tree....
by Nice Marmot
Garrison Keillor
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:27 a.m. CST
I'd back Jim Sturgess.
by Ambush Bug
Solid actor. Loved him in HEARTLESS. He's got a good range and they'll need someone likable for the ladies. For the voice of Rocket Raccoon, I'd go for Peter Dinklage.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:30 a.m. CST
And all the other characters are CGI.
by Smerdyakov
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:36 a.m. CST
I like that they're not going with a movie star
by rev_skarekroe
That approach worked for Captain America and Thor, so I guess it'll work here too.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:37 a.m. CST
In recognize like two of those names, so they must all be British
by terry1978
Nothing wrong with that, but that's usually what they are when I don't recognize the names except via fanboy circles.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:39 a.m. CST
ambush bug - Rocket Dinkloon
by DidntPullOutInTimeCop
My first millisecond reaction was *what, cause he's short?!* But damn if his voice wouldn't be perfect for that. Well done.
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:49 a.m. CST
THEY ARE RAPING MY NON-EXISTING CHILDHOOD!
by Simpsonian
I am so angry about how they are handling this movie even though I never heard of it before
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:12 a.m. CST
I know nothing of Guardians, but...
by Deceased Fan
I love Lee Pace, so there's that and the idea of Jason Statham voicing a raccoon makes me laugh. (thx bloody fox)
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:13 a.m. CST
moving quickly?
by percane
of course they are. if it comes out in the summer we're talking 18 months for a movie that's going to require a lot of post production. time is of the essense!
Something about that name. They do very okay in movies & tv. My money is on Jack Huston. Joel Edgarton is a good choice, if a little old and grizzled. These casting choices seem funny. Do they have the tone of this movie nailed down yet?
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:51 a.m. CST
@chronicallydepressedlemming
by Horrorfanatic
Nothing is going to change for the Marvel area at Universal. They have a contract for the characters that extends next to forever from what I've heard. Plus, why would Disney want to change it, as it stands, they are getting royalties from their largest competitor in Orlando. Seems like a win/win situation to me.
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:57 a.m. CST
What the hell is wrong w/ the talk-backers?
by Nice Marmot
There should be at least 7 mentions of Nathan Fillion by now . . .
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:59 a.m. CST
Yes, ambush bug, by all means . . .
by Nice Marmot
. . . . the voice actor must be of the same height as the character . . .
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:18 a.m. CST
I'm really hungry.
by Raptor Jesus
Can you hand me that possum?
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:22 a.m. CST
Michael Rooker for Rocket Raccoon
by Gabe Athouse
He's worked with Gunn before. And his voice sounds tough without being too deep for an anthropomorphic space raccoon.
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:26 a.m. CST
I guess Marvel has extra cash to burn
by 2soon2eat
This movie = throw away money. I guess all that Avenger's fueled cocaine money has addled their brains.
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:45 a.m. CST
Russel Crowe has been my choice for Rocket Racoon ever since I first laid eyes on him in that one concept pic from guardians of the galaxy. I guess he's popular enough for a movie?
by UltraTron
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:57 a.m. CST
My god, Rocket Racoon
by David Cloverfield
Never read anything with the character. But I love him. Just for sticking it to the trend where they make the character an asshole, give him a cigar and make him murder people, and then call him and edgy anti-hero.
was in Lincoln and the seminal but short lived genre tv classic Pushing Daises yet you think referencing a twilight movie is the best way to get geek attention. One thing about geek credibility, when you focus on mainstream GARBAGE as opposed to actual geek product, or at least QUALITY, you lose all credibility you search engine pandering douchebags
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:09 a.m. CST
Rooker has already stated he wants the Rocket Racoon role.
by Scott Baiowulf ? "
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:20 a.m. CST
Yea I guess you can't have a black guy play the Racoon without it being seriously offensive, put me down for Rooker, (but I would feel differently if
by the Green Gargantua
Snipes was not rotting in a jail cell)
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:25 a.m. CST
Happybunni
by silentjay
Not trying to be a dick, but if you don't know any of those actors, why do spend time on a website about movies? This isn't TMZ, where acting talent is judged by how many times you can be seen drinking coffee in public.
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:33 a.m. CST
Why does Marvel need to do this? To branch out from the standard superhero fare? Now that parent company Disney has Star Wars there is absolutely no need for this second-rate Star Wars clone.
by rocketeuropa
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:36 a.m. CST
I'm down with Huston or Pace. But I'd be amazed if they actually went with Huston.
by Wcwlkr
I mean he kills it on Boardwalk, but the role is extremely different from his Phantom hitman character. I mean I think he'd do a great job, ever since Pushing Daisies I'm a Lee Pace fan. I'm actually suprised Whedon hasn't been in Gunn's ear to try and push Nathan Fillion.
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:38 a.m. CST
Good Picks
by Frojitsu
Lee Pace was fantastic in The Fall, and had been on the fringes of Hollywood for a while now. The other actors are also good choices for Star-Lord. I'm a little surprised that Gunn hasn't auditioned his buddy Nathan Fillion. Oh, and Rooker as Rocket Raccoon? I'll stand by that.
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:46 a.m. CST
I didn't even know who Lee Pace was till you mentioned The Fall.
by kindofabigdeal
I was gonna go with Sturgess myself, but I agree Pace needs something like this to show everyone just how good he is. (Yeah, a comic book movie featuring a talking raccoon will do that)
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:49 a.m. CST
Will the soundtrack include the Beatle song Rocky Raccoon? If it does then I'm back to Sturgess, who can sing it himself.
by kindofabigdeal
He did do Across the Universe.
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:59 a.m. CST
has to be live action, don't see this being 100% stand alone in the marvel universe
by ahdvd
Haven't we seen hints that Thanos may be the villain in this? or at least make an appearance? I think marvel are planning well ahead, look at when they are releasing it, after the first iron man, thor and captain america phase 2 movies, but BEFORE avengers 2 - who wants to bet that in avengers 2 we will see them banish hulk, a la planet hulk, and as long as GOTG is successful, cross that story over with the Rocket Raccoon on in the comics as didn't Rocket Raccoon end up teaming up with the hulk?
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:23 a.m. CST
MICHAEL ROOKER FOR ROCKET RACCOON. ROWDY BURNS 4 LYFE.
by Darth Busey
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:24 a.m. CST
BLADE WENT BACK TO MARVEL, YES? WESLEY WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WHEN HE GETS OUT OF THE CAN.
by Darth Busey
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:34 a.m. CST
I've hear of Star Lord.............never heard of G.O.T.Galaxy.
by LORDOFLIGHT
And I'm a bit of a Marvel fan too.
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:54 a.m. CST
Yes, Chris Rock would be a racist choice.
by Metroid_Fetish
You dumb niggers.
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:56 a.m. CST
Jack Huston should be Dr. Strange
by Cobb05
I also hope Joel gets the gig. It's a crime that Sam Worthington keeps getting big movie roles and Joel still isn't well known.
Nov. 29, 2012, 12:02 p.m. CST
Taylor Kitsch and James Marsden are also up for the role
by Cobb05
Doubt they get it though.
Nov. 29, 2012, 12:07 p.m. CST
Personally I'd rather see Kiefer Sutherland as Rocket Racoon, damn it!
by Stegman84
Though I could certainly live with Michael Rooker getting the opportunity, and the paycheck that comes with it. His onscreen brother, Norman Reedus, would be pretty good too. Though there is a part of me that really wants them to go off the wall with the voice casting choice, and get someone like Schwarzenegger or Walken for the role, just because, well, just because...
Nov. 29, 2012, 12:30 p.m. CST
What?! No, Nathan Fillion??
by TopHat
I'm not a Whedon freak, but, Fillion in this type of role would actually make more sense than the half a dozen other roles Whedon fans keep putting him in...
Nov. 29, 2012, 12:31 p.m. CST
Oh, and Peter Dinklage IS Rocket Racoon.
by TopHat
Make it happen.
Nov. 29, 2012, 12:35 p.m. CST
Lee Pace all the way!!!
by Eric
Dramatic chops - The Fall, The Hobbit, Lincoln Comedy chops - Pushing Daisies He's also quite a tall fellow with a rather imposing stature. I honestly think he'd be a great Peter Quill/Star-Lord I can also perfectly imagine him arguing with a talking raccoon.
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:17 p.m. CST
tophat---Nathan Fillion is Hank Pym
by thelordofhell
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:25 p.m. CST
@rocketeuropa
by jemagee
Probably because Marvel doesn't control the rights to the fantastic four (specifically galactus and the silver surfer) or the x-men (star jammers) and needs to expand its film universe into outer space before the next avengers movie - the teaser at the end of the avengers film sets up space bound adventures - and i believe guardians of the galaxy will help develop the 'space' universe of marvel comics. Damn - I wish they had the FF - cause hell the cross over potential with various things would be awesome
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:36 p.m. CST
this is gonna be an amazing movie!!!!
by Norman Colson
FACT!!!!
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:41 p.m. CST
The great Richard Harrow might be in it?
by skycrapper
Huston is greatness. You'd get my butt in the seat if he's in it.
Nov. 29, 2012, 1:57 p.m. CST
I'm actually kinda excited for this.....could be kickass.
by Ultron ver 2.0
As for R. Raccoon, put me down for semi-psycho voice. Maybe a Michael Wincott, or the Marcus Fenix from Gears of War, Fred Tatasciore....god that would be awesome and hilarious.
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:09 p.m. CST
Why are you referencing TWILIGHT? Lee Pace was good in THE FALL and great in LINCOLN. Another idiot point for Kidd.
by golden tribw
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:11 p.m. CST
This is going to be terrible, James Gunn is a horrible director who still directs like he works for Troma.
by SergeantStedenko
Not sure how any of his previous films qualify him to direct a film like this. I will be truly shocked if this turns out to be halfway decent, maybe the DP and CGI team can save it, but I'm expecting Green Lantern level bad or worse, Tromeo & Juliet in Space.
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:13 p.m. CST
Seriously, this guy is proof that anyone can make it in Hollywood as a director.
by SergeantStedenko
So, shit and get off the pot and go make your movie!
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:37 p.m. CST
If Lee Pace were in it, I would keep expecting him to raise the dead...
by Arguendo
... and why hasn't anyone mentioned Wonderfalls, yet... too esoteric?
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:39 p.m. CST
I wonder if Huston would use his natural voice or accent.
by DougMcKenzie
One) I don't think I've seen him use his English accent ever. 2) He's pulling a Bale on BE with the husky voice, he doesn't sound anything like that at all, in his beer commercials!
Nov. 29, 2012, 2:57 p.m. CST
Reepicheep for Rocky Raccoon
by SergeantStedenko
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:10 p.m. CST
Sturgess or Pace
by oisin5199
Though if they want 'grittier,' Edgerton. From what I've seen of Huston, he's all wrong. Pace was also in the lovely, short lived Wonderfalls. But he can definitely pull off the role. I think the edge goes to Sturgess because Star Lord has to be both charming and a bad-ass, a Han Solo kind of character. Which is why Fillion would have been great 10 years ago. He's too old and out of shape now.
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:20 p.m. CST
Tell me again how a movie about a talking raccoon and a talking tree is expected to be accessible to a general audience?
by MoPea
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:32 p.m. CST
don't worry. Groot doesn't say much.
by oisin5199
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:35 p.m. CST
I vote Pace
by mukhtabi
Lee Pace is the awesome. Even in that new twilight, I took a Colombian girl to see that, he was fantastic!
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:43 p.m. CST
@bass ackwards. Me too! It made the podcast much better
by fingerlickingood
that fucking cgi baby still haunts my dreams.
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:54 p.m. CST
They should use the current voice of Rocket Raccoon for the film, Gregg Ellis
by Meta
Experienced in the role - Check (Avengers: EMH & Marvel vs. Capcom 3) Experienced Voice Actor - Check Real British Voice - Check Real on-camera British actor - Check () If it ain't broke don't fix it. They want to keep the budget under control, use the man who established his voice. Like Peter Cullen did for Optimus Prime. Celebrity stunt-casting doesn't always work. Why give out millions of dollars for a "famous" actor who could give 2 shits about the role and just wants to take home a fat paycheck for doing 1 week of voice work?
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:55 p.m. CST
mukhtabi, you know you went by yourself to see it, and you thought it was fabulous.
by kindofabigdeal
Nov. 29, 2012, 3:58 p.m. CST
I'm liking the idea of Lee Pace...
by carlotta_valdes
...was great in The Fall, has a high profile role in The Hobbit and will bring that serious weight of the universe on his shoulders feeling to Quill that's needed. ...twigglet can suck em (see what i did there?)
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:09 p.m. CST
For those who know the 'character' of Rocket Raccoon...
by carlotta_valdes
...AND that are supporting Michael Rooker to do his voice, please explain why? Oh, there's no one...figures. That's because he's completely wrong for it. Don't get me wrong, I like Rooker...just not right for this.
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:15 p.m. CST
I Was a Big Marvel Fan as a Kid and I Dont Know Who Guardians of the Galaxy Even Are... The Fact That One of the Characters is Named Rocket Raccoon Makes Me Want to Vomit My Gizzards Out
by ass clown
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:27 p.m. CST
Didn't Rocket Raccoon fuck Squirrel Girl in that one issue of Nobody Gives a Fuck You're All Manchildren Monthly #18?
by Metroid_Fetish
I'm pretty sure that's also the issue where the guy who played Obi Wan Kenobi pleaded with fans to please leave him the fuck alone.
Nov. 29, 2012, 4:37 p.m. CST
I like every actor on the list, Jim Sturgess is a gem of a young actor.
by Randy
Nov. 29, 2012, 5:04 p.m. CST
They should skip this and just do an 'H.R. Puff&Stuff' movie. Baaaaaaaad idea.
by Mike McCutcheon
Nov. 29, 2012, 5:05 p.m. CST
They should skip this and just do an 'H.R. Puff&Stuff' movie. Baaaaaaaad idea.
by Mike McCutcheon
Nov. 29, 2012, 5:35 p.m. CST
Dont want James Gunn directing the movie? Petition!
by Dawhiteguy
Here is the link It might take GOTG longer to come out. But then a blatant misogynist will not have control over it either.
Nov. 29, 2012, 6:09 p.m. CST
People still do internet petitions?
by Bass Ackwards
Cute.
Nov. 29, 2012, 6:28 p.m. CST
@metroid_fetish, thanks for making me spit up my grits from laughter.
by Humie Bubbie
Nov. 29, 2012, 7:43 p.m. CST
Rocket Racoon = Brian Cox
by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:13 p.m. CST
I foresee the next big AICN debate being about if the tree's got wood. I mean what the hell else are these morons going to talk about for two years.
by sagamanus
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:14 p.m. CST
And if star wars fails. Mass suicide will follow. The final break between generations is nigh. And you idiots can't go back!
by sagamanus
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:16 p.m. CST
Mind you I'm from the Star Wars generation but I stopped giving a shit about it when I noticed the landfills filling up WITH LUCAS'S GOD DAMN SHIT! STOP POLLUTING THE WORLD YOU GOITER NECK BASTARD!
by sagamanus
Nov. 29, 2012, 8:29 p.m. CST
carlotta_valdes, please explain why?
by Immortal_Fish
Michael Rooker isn't tall. Rocket Raccoon isn't tall. Plus, it's voice-acting, so no "forced perspective" required anyhow. Michael Rooker convincingly plays tough as nails. Rocket Raccoon is as tough as nails. Michael Rooker uses guns in every movie he's been in. Rocket Raccoon uses guns in every panel he's drawn in. Michael Rooker smokes stogies. Rocket Raccoon smokes stogies. Michael Rooker speaks like he smokes stogies. Rocket Raccoon should speak like he smokes stogies. Anyone would love to have a beer with Michael Rooker. Anyone would love to have a beer with Rocket Raccoon. I would love to get as much pussy as Michael Rooker. I would love to get as much pussy as Rocket Raccoon. I deem this hash tag worthy. Open to conflicting points of view.
Nov. 29, 2012, 9:15 p.m. CST
Rooker saying "I am Groot!"
by Ambush Bug
I could see that. I say Dinklage not because he's short, but because he has an absolutely distinct voice and to my knowledge hasn't used it yet in voice acting. Plus he'd give what could be a laughable character a bit of depth. Rooker just growls. Yawn.
Nov. 29, 2012, 10:37 p.m. CST
So that petition? CLOSED.
by Dawhiteguy - Because somebody is a true professional. You deserve my respect Mr. Gunn. I think I'll go watch Super now... Good luck with Guardians of the Galaxy.
Nov. 29, 2012, 11:57 p.m. CST
I'ave never heard of any of these actors
by Stephen
Nov. 30, 2012, 12:11 a.m. CST
Ambush Bug
by DiscoGodfather
Dinklage voiced the lead pirate (I forget the character's name) in the last Ice Age movie. And yes, he was fantastic in it.
Nov. 30, 2012, 12:47 a.m. CST
Jack Huston should get any roe he wants. He's THAT good on Boardwalk Empire. He doesn't need the laurels of the family name and is far, far better than Angelica.....
by sauronthepowerful
Make it happen.<p> Doublequick!
Nov. 30, 2012, 12:47 a.m. CST
Role, that is
by sauronthepowerful
Nov. 30, 2012, 2:14 a.m. CST
Bug or GTFO. Or an 80's era Micronauts movie.
by Dingbatty
Or a cartoon. Also, Gunn has seriously pissed off the internet faux geek faux feminist "community," so he must be doing something right.
Nov. 30, 2012, 2:18 a.m. CST
Rocket Raccoon voice
by pikazerox
I hope they keep whoever they got in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, it's crazy how good it is.
Nov. 30, 2012, 2:28 a.m. CST
Lee Pace, absolutely
by adamtierney
Dude was incredible in The Fall. Very charismatic, a star waiting to happen.
Nov. 30, 2012, 9:14 a.m. CST
The more you talk about this, the more it pisses me off that no Fanbulla Eddie the Gorilla Faced Girl movie has been greenlit yet. Rosie Odonnel in her prime- what could have been- mercy
by UltraTron
Nov. 30, 2012, 9:19 a.m. CST
green gargantua: no. Racism does not exist. Here is what exists:
by UltraTron
Being manipulated by unseen forces throughout history. Here you idiots take these Persian gifts of cheap labor from the darkest continent. Here you idiots deal with that until it tears your country apart and you are killing your brothers. Here you idiots focus on anything but the root cause and while you die in the dirt we'll be laughing our asses off. Here you talk about complete non-issues like racism while we fuck you in every orifice. You are the ultimate pawns of the world. We have set you against each other and plundered whatever riches you excrete. Here take this, take that. Here have a carbon tax- forget that nobody else on earth does anything remotely about the carbon including Mexico on your border which is one of the most polluting offenders to the environment on earth. Here believe something your government tells you. Here become communist even though Russia says it never worked and is now more american than you. You are all equal after all. You are all our experiment. You are all complete and utter cumquots.
Nov. 30, 2012, 9:27 a.m. CST
Yeah Brian Cox or fuck off. I didn't make you a killer wolverine. I just gave you claws. Racoon claws bitch.
by UltraTron
Nov. 30, 2012, 10:01 a.m. CST
I thought that internet petition would be because James Gunn is a shit director. If it were I would sing it. Seriously, go watch Super and tell me you want this guy directing this.
by SergeantStedenko
Nov. 30, 2012, 10:03 a.m. CST
Josh Whedon got a ton of shit from you guys, but Gunn gets a free pass. Have you seen any of his movies? He isn't fit to direct cable access programming.
by SergeantStedenko
Nov. 30, 2012, 12:11 p.m. CST
Jason Statham is the perfect height for Rocket Raccoon
by Domi'sInnerChild
They need to make it happen. He's like Jim Carrey for the Mask, they can save a ton of money not having to use CG much.
Nov. 30, 2012, 1:21 p.m. CST
Danny Devito for Rocket Racoon!
by Jackson
Im just jokin.
Nov. 30, 2012, 4:43 p.m. CST
I totally respect Michael Rooker, but Rocket Raccoon wouldn't be perfect for him
by Kyle DeMattio
It would be best if a professional voice actor did the character, like John Dimaggio, Sam Marin or Mark Hamill. Or of course, I think Seth MacFarlane would be perfect to play Rocket Raccoon.
Nov. 30, 2012, 7:45 p.m. CST
Sold on this on Gunn alone
by Ashs_Right_Hand
James Gunn doing an off-kilter space opera featuring a bunch of no-name superheroes? Count me in. Slither and SUPER are two of my favorite movies the last couple years and he did the near-impossible feat of writing the remake to what is probably the best zombie movie of all time. I'm a fan of Marvel comics but never came across any GotG stuff, but from what I've read about it, it's going to cross into some strange territory and I think Gunn is the perfect voice for that. Hopefully his involvement in this leads to him collaborating with Whedon on The Avengers 2 (at least on the script). As far as the short list goes, I like Edgerton but highly doubt he takes the role. He seems destined for a legitimate superhero starring role (Possibly taking over Green Lantern for Reynolds in Justice League?), rather than a second rate title. I have limited experience with the others, but I liked the little I've seen of Huston on BE (Only seen the first season but he was a particular highlight).
Nov. 30, 2012, 8:58 p.m. CST
This movie will be retarded. the entire concept of a 'bounty hunter space raccoon' sounds like something from an iCarly episode.
by Arcadian Del Sol
Nov. 30, 2012, 11:28 p.m. CST
What itsnotaschooner said
by _Lizarkeo
Lee Pace is the best choice to interact with Rocky Raccoon, period:
Dec. 2, 2012, 1:49 a.m. CST
Tromeo & Juliet is a classic
by Psycho_Kenshin
Gunn is the man.
Dec. 2, 2012, 1:49 a.m. CST
Lemmy should be in this, and obligatory Lloyd Kaufman
by Psycho_Kenshin |
Alan J. McFarlane
6th December 2001
Updated: 17th February 2002
Updated: 20th March 2002
Updated: 30th August 2002
Updated: 03rd November 2002
Updated: 22nd November 2002
Updated: 15th January 2003
Updated: 5th April 2003 — Small updates and a more compact HTML conversion!
Updated: 15th May 2003 — More small updates.
Updated: 2nd June 2003 — Addition of Windows Server 2003 information and more.
Updated: 2nd June 2003 — Addition of Handspring IrCOMM advice, Windows XP information and more.
Updated: 9th October 2003 — Addition of Polar HRM information.
Updated: 15th April 2004 — Minor additions, e.g. on Consumer IR and Direct IR.
Updated: 6th May 2004 — Fixed a typo in the Polar HRM section.
Updated: 16th August 2004 — Usage information on Lazy Discovery.
Updated: 25th August 2004 — Now refers to the programming reference (+).
Updated: 28th October 2004 — Information on HotSync “port is in use by” [b].
Updated: 12th January 2005 — Some less technical information on the last.
Updated: 16th January 2005 —Summary of instructions for Infrared HotSync.
Updated: 12th February 2005 —Two Treo highlighted IR HotSync issues, ircomm2k with RRAS and minor additions/typos.
Updated 20th February 2006 — Some Vista information, corrected IrTranPv1 mis-casing.
Questions
1. PalmOS IrDA HotSync with 2000 & XP
1.1. PalmOS HotSync error “Unable to initiate…port is in use by…”
1.2. PalmOS HotSync error “The connection between…could not be established”
2. PalmOS IrDA HotSync with 98 (& NT)
3. PalmOS raw-IrDA HotSync with 98 & NT
4.1. Devices with non-upgradeable OS
5. Microsoft ActiveSync and IrDA
6. Psion PDA synchronisation, PsiWin and IrDA
8. IrDA on NT 4—Quickbeam
10. IrDA on Windows Server 2003
11. IrDA on Windows Vista (née Longhorn)
12. Windows XP to IrCOMM modem e.g. GSM Phone
13. Windows 2000 to IrCOMM modem
14. Windows 2000, XP and general IrCOMM
15. PalmOS to IrCOMM modem
18. PalmOS to Network thru Windows NT 4 (RAS)
18.1. Thru Windows 2000/XP (RRAS)
19. Polar HRM and Infrared connectivity
19.1. “i”, using the IrDA protocol stack
19.2. No “i”, using ‘Direct IR’
19.3. On Windows 2000 etc
20. Problems with Serial IrDA dongles at rates above 9600 bps
22. Winsock IrDA programming
23. Winsock IrDA programming for Windows 98
24. Winsock Lazy-Discovery
25. Other Microsoft information
26. Disabling the “Wireless Link” IrTran-P application
27. Replacing the “Wireless Link” OBEX application
28. IrDA access to mobile phones’ phonebook etc.
29. Direct/Raw IR versus the IrDA protocol stack
30. Consumer-IR versus IrDA
Palm have added IrDA (over IrCOMM) support to HotSync Manager, this adds a “Infrared” item to the menu alongside “Local”, “Modem” etc for Windows 2000 and XP. It can be downloaded from the Palm support site at [1].
Figure 1—Palm HotSync Manager on Windows 2000, showing InfraRed menu option
Figure 2—PalmOS HotSync to Infrared
On the PalmOS device itself, in the HotSync application chose “Local” then “IR to a PC/Handheld” and then hit the HotSync icon. This support uses the IrDA IrCOMM protocol and exists in PalmOS version 3.3 and later, if you have an earlier version you will need to upgrade, see Question 4.
Note, on the PC one has to disable the “Image Transfer” functionality of “Wireless Link” and stop any other programs that operate in the same way e.g. “Microsoft ActiveSync”[2]. The option in the Wireless Link Control Panel applet is shown in Figure 3; disabled is the default in Windows XP. See Question 26 for more information on this and how to do it programmatically.
Figure 3—Disabling Image Transfer in Wireless Link
If the “Image Transfer” functionality is not disabled, HotSync Manager on the PC will complain with:
Error accessing the IR Port. See the //Helpnotes//IR_Readme.txt for more information..
By the way, the file “IR_Readme.txt” does not exist! This message can also be seen however, when there is no problem with the infrared usage, this case occurs when HotSync infrared is enabled and one of the other types is toggled. This would seem to be a bug (perhaps the program attempts to re-open the infrared socket when it already has it open).
There is generally a conflict between Windows searching for IrDA devices and HotSync opening on the Palm. Initiate the HotSync process (hit the HotSync button) before bringing the PalmOS device into range of the PC. See below for more details and two other possible causes.
The message below often occurs on the PalmOS (version 4) device when an IrDA HotSync operation is initiated. The HotSync operation does not take place. This generally occurs due to an interaction between the way in which the Microsoft Windows and the PalmOS IrDA communication stacks operate.
Unable to initiate HotSync operation because the port is in use by another application.
In order to support automatic discovery of peer devices for use as printers, modems, or for beaming etc Windows 2000 etc regularly runs the IrDA discovery process. The IrDA stack on PalmOS can only be used by one application at a time and thus there is a conflict when the Beaming application activates to answer the discovery queries and, at the same time, the HotSync application attempts to make an outgoing connection.
There are two workarounds to this problem. Firstly, set “Beam Receive” to “Off” in the PalmOS “Prefs” application. However, it appears that selecting “Off” sometimes does not take immediate effect and that a (soft) reset is sometimes needed. I also have found that this option often automatically jumps to “On” (perhaps after a HotSync). Of course, having Beam Receive disabled will stop you from receiving beamed objects.
The second workaround is to initiate the HotSync operation before bringing the PalmOS device into range of the PC. This allows the HotSync application to gain sole access to the IrDA library and stops the Beam Receive functionality from interfering. As long as you get the two devices in range with 30 seconds of hitting the HotSync button, the connection will be made.
I didn’t see this message displayed on Palm OS 3.3. However the horrid “Waiting for Sender” dialog box was often displayed there—it again was displayed when a discovery query was heard and, thankfully, this behaviour was removed in later version. It is not clear whether the same “port is in use” message was possible there but hidden as the HotSync button was blocked by this dialog box.
Two other causes for this error have become apparent. Firstly, that the software for the Portable Keyboard for Treo 600 can conflict with infrared HotSync—in the PortableKB application select OFF to allow infrared HotSync[3]. Note that driver also conflicts with other IrDA usage e.g. Beaming and other serial port usage[4].
Secondly the “IR to a PC/Handheld” Connection definition can become corrupted. To check whether this applies, go to the “Prefs” application, select “Connection” from the menu in the top right of the screen, and Edit the “IR to a PC/Handheld” item, and ensure it has the settings listed here. For OS 4, “Connect To:” should have “PC”, and “Via:” should have “Infrared”. For OS 3, “Connection Method:” should have “IrCOMM to PC”.
Figure 4—“ IR to a PC/Handheld” Prefs:Connection setings in PalmOS 4 and 3
On the other hand, if there are no local conflicts, but a connection can’t be made to HotSync Manager on a remote device (PC etc) then the following error is eventually displayed.
The connection between your computer and the desktop could not be established. Please check your setup and try again.
That means that either the Palm can’t find the PC hosting the infrared HotSync application, or that the HotSync application on the PC isn’t responding to the infrared HotSync requests.
More technically, this can be due to there being no IrDA peer found, or an IrDA peer is found but it is not providing the IrCOMM service, or the IrCOMM service is running on the peer but HotSync Manager is not responding on it etc.
On Windows versions prior to 2000 HotSync Manager needs to be set to listen on the IrCOMM Virtual COM port as provided by the IrDA driver e.g. COM4. This also works on Windows NT 4 with QuickBeam suite, see Question 8.
The Palm should be used in the same way as for Windows 2000/XP, see Question 1.
Note it is reported by some but I have not verified this that HotSync can also be used without the Windows IrDA software (IrDA stack, IrLMP, TinyTP, IrCOMM etc) being present. In this configuration, “HotSync Manager” should be set to use the COM port that is the Infrared device itself. This would work because the low level infrared protocol (sometimes called “HP SIR”) is like the serial cable protocol itself. See e.g..
I presume that this would require IrLink software on the Palm configured to use “HP SIR” for the HotSync application. As noted above in current PalmOS 3.3 and later the HotSync “IR to a PC/Handheld” mode uses IrCOMM and not raw-IrDA i.e. “HP SIR”. However, the current version of ISComplete’s () IrLink is only supported on Palm OS 3.0 to 3.1x.
I also have doubts about how well this mode of operation will work. A serial cable connection is full-duplex, that is it can transfer data in both directions at the same time. An infrared device however is half-duplex; this is because it ‘hears’ (sees) its own transmissions so will not receive anything from a peer device when it is transmitting (nor for a short time afterwards). Maybe the HotSync protocol luckily does not send and receive at the same time and thus will work (tolerably) over the raw infrared framing…
As noted above to carry out HotSync over IrDA (IrCOMM) requires OS version 3.3 or later on the Palm. There are multiple upgrade possibilities if you are running an earlier version. Firstly upgrades to later version 3 OSs are available for free on the Palm site, see:
Another route is to purchase an upgrade to version 4.1. This is available for instance at the Palm’s online store[5].
Some devices cannot have their OS upgraded i.e. the OS is in ROM; such devices include the Handspring Visor. The solution for them seems to be to install (parts of the) “Palm Enhanced Infrared Updater”. See the Handspring support article “What is the Palm Enhanced Infrared Updater and why would I need it?”[6]. Be careful to only install the listed components…
Microsoft has also added IrCOMM Winsock support to their PDA’s PC synchronisation software, in ActiveSync version 3.5 at least. A difference to Palm’s is that it will automatically disable the conflicting “Image Transfer” feature during its activity period. It also finds an IrCOMM Virtual COM Port if one exists.
Note that have I do not own nor have any experience of Windows CE / Pocket PC devices, my experience is only through installing ActiveSync version 3.5 on a Windows 2000 PC and observing its behaviour.
[Out of date. Version 2 of “ircomm2k” apparently allows Psion infrared syncing].
This is one of the things that seem to remain broken by Microsoft not supplying fully functional IrCOMM Virtual COM Port functionality in Windows 2000 and XP. The PsiWin application can only communicate over COM Ports, thus in Windows 98 (for instance), it could be connected to the IrCOMM Virtual COM Port and using IrCOMM support in the Psion device synchronisation could be carried out.
Unfortunately even with the IrComm2k Virtual COM Port software (see question “Windows 2000, XP and general IrCOMM” below) being used on Windows 2000 this method does not work. It is not known why, perhaps the lack of the control signal lines being transferred or possibly that the user mode to kernel mode structure of the IrComm2k software creates longer latencies that can be handled. However it should not be difficult to add Winsock IrDA support should Psion wish to support infrared synchronisation / access.
A new version of IrComm2k is in development one of the aims of which is to support Psion usage, see its Version 2 pages[7]. There are reports of the Alpha version proving successful.
One of the most useful protocols within the IrDA suite is object transfer (OBEX) or Beaming, as Palm would call it. All devices that support IrDA should really include it. Even some printers these days are including support. The most common use for OBEX is in transferring Address book entries between the various systems, for instance between Palms and Mobile phones. OBEX does not define any file types itself, and similar to HTTP uses MIME style file types. Commonly supported files types are vCard and vCalendar, these are recommended in the IrMC specification, which also adds vNote a plain text format.
There does seem to be some compatibility problems though. I have problems beaming between Windows 2000/XP and PalmOS 3.3 and with QuickBeam. Others seem to encounter such problems see e.g. [8]
Devices used include:
Other devices professing support include:
Microsoft does not provide IrDA support on Windows NT 4, but a third-party solution exists from Extended Systems () called “QuickBeam suite”. I have used it successfully both for Palm HotSync and for beaming.
Note the Quickbeam suite has its own API (and SDK) and does not use the same API as the Microsoft solution.
The IrDA support in XP is slightly enhanced from that in Window 2000, as discussed in presentation “IrDA and Windows XP”[10]. The differences are as follows:
The document also notes that having HotSync use a unique Service Name e.g. “IrCOMM:HotSync” rather than pure IrCOMM would sidestep the conflicts.
Windows Server 2003 has now been released, in short, it is a new Server platform like Windows 2000 Server, and has four versions Standard, Enterprise, Datacenter and Web. It appears initially that only the Standard version includes IrDA support; all of the relevant pages in TechNet (see [12]) include the following statement in their notes:
In the Windows Server 2003 family, only Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition, supports infrared networking.
The Wireless Networking “Resources” page[13] also agrees:
The Infrared Data Association (IrDA) is an international organization that sets standards for infrared data connections. The infrared support provided by Windows XP Home Edition, Windows XP Professional, and Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition is designed to meet these standards.
The support is not included in any 64-bit versions though; the TechNet page[14] on Irftp includes the following:
This tool is not available on Windows XP 64-Bit Edition and the 64-bit versions of the Windows Server 2003 family.
Also, note that the support is removed in the 64-bit Windows XP too. An equivalent statement is also made in the “Technical Overview of Windows Server 2003 Networking and Communications” (NetworkingOver.doc) document[15].
The following legacy networking protocols are
removed from the 64-bit versions of the operating system:
…
· Infrared Data Association (IrDA).
That document however raises a point of confusion. It says in its “IrCOMM Modem Driver for IrDA” section,
This feature is only provided in Enterprise Edition and Web Edition.
Also, Knowledge base article “325867 - HOW TO: Configure Your Computer for Infrared Communication in Windows Server 2003”[16] states:
The information in this article applies to:
· Microsoft Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition
· Microsoft Windows Server 2003, Web Edition
And finally, in an online chat on “What's new in Windows Server 2003?” a Microsoft engineer stated that he personally had used IrDA “in both Standard and Enterprise editions”[17].
Thus, there is a complete lack of agreement over which editions do include IrDA support. I would have thought that Standard edition is the edition most likely to be used on a user’s machine—for development testing etc—and thus where IrDA and also the modem access would be useful. Any confirmation or otherwise of the actual support would be welcome. What editions have you installed and did they include IrDA support?
I have had one report on this—thanks Mark. It was found that Standard did have IrDA support and that Enterprise and Web did not. That supports the “only in Standard” belief.
I’ve been worried for some time that Microsoft had completely lost interest in IrDA, given that there’ve not added support for IrDA in XP 64-Bit, nor included it in some of the Server 2003 versions—thought that was probably more a security “attack surface” decision. I know it’s not the today’s hot wireless connectivity technology but I know that lots of people use it; I get lots of accesses to my website, emails, and see questions in many forums online. It would thus be a bad thing if it was to be dropped from future platforms.
We’ve also seen before, with the Windows 2000 no IrCOMM for mobile phones, HotSyncing, etc debacle, that making decisions about IrDA support in the US can give a false view of user requirements —given the different technology environments that exist in the Europe, Asia, etc[18].
So anyway, back to IrDA support in Vista, there’s not a great amount of informaiton, however the following is in the Vista Beta 1 Release Notes[19] document:
• Infrared (IrDA) Devices: There are known issues with IrDA devices. There are no workarounds at this time. These issues include the following:
So IrDA support is apparently included; but also needing some work before release…
For Vista in particular, and for IrDA support in general it would probably be a good idea for all you who use IrDA to email Microsoft noting that you use the feature and how disappointing it would be if they stopped supporting it; a suitable email address would likely be [email protected] It might also be helpful to not what usage scenarios you use, any bugs you’ve found, and any other features that would be useful.
Windows XP contains all the functionality required out-of-the-box to use an IrDA enabled Mobile Phone as a modem, it’s also truly plug-and-play (plugless-and-play?!). When Windows XP discovers a Mobile Phone in front of the infrared sensor, it will automatically add a suitable Modem device, which can then be used in creating Dial-up Connections etc. Note that an IrCOMM Virtual COM Port is created for the connection to the mobile phone, see Figure 5.
I don’t know what phones work, and more importantly which don’t work, without further driver software or INF files being installed. It appears for instance that the Motorola Timeport models don’t work with the generic driver and require the “_motlser.inf” file from the CD to be installed first.
Figure 5—Windows 2000 Mobile Phone IrCOMM support
Older phones like the Nokia 6110 do not contain an IrCOMM Modem[20] and thus will not be useable in this way, see Question 16.1.
Windows 2000 does not contain the same IrCOMM Modem support by default, however an update exists to add it. The patch can be found at [21]. This patch is included in Service Pack 3 (SP3). More information on the patch can be found at [22] and [23].
Many devices use IrCOMM as their IrDA communications method, such applications include PalmOS devices and Psion PDAs for synchronisation, Mobile Phones for changing Ringtones, Icons and access to their Address Books etc. I am not a fan of this mode of operation, amongst other thing it cause a huge conflict. For instance if you want to HotSync your Palm, ActiveSync your PocketPC and transfer pictures from your digital camera then on your PC you must stop and start the respective applications. This is not user friendly. I have discussed this previously in my other documents[24], so I won’t discuss the wider issues further here.
There are three possible solutions to the lack of IrCOMM Virtual COM Port support in Windows 2000 and XP for these applications:
Note that for access to mobile phones for Ringtone updating etc which uses/needs an IrCOMM Virtual COM Port, then the Windows XP/2000 etc IrCOMM Modem support, as described in Question 9, provides the required Virtual COM Port (when the phone is in range).
A PalmOS device with version 3.3 or later can use an Infrared Mobile Phone as a modem. In the “Prefs” application, firstly a “Connection” called “IR to a Modem” should be created which uses the “IrCOMM to Modem” Connection Method.
Figure 6—PalmOS Prefs Connection list
Figure 7—PalmOS IrCOMM Connection
Network connections can then be created with “Connection” set to “IR to a Modem” (see Figure 7).
Figure 8—PalmOS IrCOMM Network connection
Note that for modern Mobile Phones no extra software is required, older phones e.g. the Nokia 6110 required extra software on the Palm to allow dial-up networking, see Question 16.1.
Most current Mobile Phones that include Infrared include both IrCOMM and OBEX; this means that they can be used as a modem by Windows, PalmOS etc and for ‘Beaming’. Earlier phones with infrared often included neither of these capabilities for instance the Nokia 6110, see Question 16.1.
This applies to Nokia, all of its current phones with infrared have the two capabilities i.e. 6210, 7110, 8210 etc. However, the Motorola Timeport P7389 is known to only have the IrCOMM capability and not OBEX. More information on phone capabilities can be found at e.g. [25], [26].
The IrModem protocol, which was the only way to access mobile phones in Windows 2000 originally, has been removed from Windows. Ironically, the newer Nokia phones do appear to include support for this protocol. This highlights the problems of different development and release schedules, though Microsoft was expecting too much if they really expected people to upgrade their phones to get IrModem compatible versions.
As noted above, some earlier Mobile Phones had IrDA protocol support but had neither OBEX, not IrCOMM Modem functionality. This includes the Nokia 6110, which could print Address book entries and allow multiplayer games to be run over an infrared connection though could not send Address book entries to other devices, nor be used as an IrCOMM Modem.
Software was (is) available for both Windows and PalmOS to communicate with the proprietary modem in the phone. I would recommend though that you spend the money on a new phone rather that software for one or more of your other ‘computer’ devices. That way you get the full current phone support giving full compatibility with other devices.
Printers generally have IrLPT support, this is a cable replacement protocol, it does not include a page definition language etc. The peer device must understand the printer’s language e.g. PostScript, HP’s PCL etc. In Windows 2000/XP (and possibly earlier versions) infrared printing is plug-and-play. When Windows first ‘sees’ the printer, it will add a suitable Printer driver.
For PalmOS, one needs third-party software, for instance PrintBoy from. Printing support in Mobile Phones is known to exist in the Nokia 6110, as noted above, but the availability of this support in other phones is not known.
As noted above printers have recently been having OBEX (Question 4) support added. This makes printing from all devices a real possibility, for instance from Mobile Phones, PalmOS without extra software etc. Of course the printers will not be able to support all file types, however support for vCard, vCalendar and vNote will be of great benefit, providing printing support for those small devices who can’t provide full printer driver support.
To network connect directly to (or through) an NT machine you have to install RAS server along with modem type “Dial-Up Networking Serial Cable between 2 PCs” on the NT machine. This ‘modem’ type requires handshake of the form, send: “CLIENT”, receive: “CLIENTSERVER”. So on the Palm on the Network Script page enter:
Send: CLIENT
Wait For: CLIENTSERVER
End:
That’s the only ‘trick’. On NT the RAS and on the Palm the Network set-up is as normal otherwise, PPP will run great. Note since the COM Port can only have one application using it at a time you’ll have to stop HotSync Manager (or unselect “Local” from its menu) before you start RAS Server. :-(
I've connected like this with the Cradle, using Infrared should be the same, just connect the “Dial-Up Networking Serial Cable between 2 PCs” ‘modem’ to the Virtual Infrared COM Port e.g. COM4 rather than e.g. COM1.
This set-up is largely the same on Windows 2000 and Windows XP. Of course, due to the non-existence of the general IrCOMM Virtual COM Port functionality in Windows 2000 etc, the connection over infrared (IrCOMM) is not possible by default. Microsoft has replaced that function with a different method (IrNet a.k.a. IrDial, IrNetv1); however, new software would be required for the PalmOS, and it does not exist.
Fortunately, the ircomm2k software (see solution 3 in Question 11 above) can be used to create the IrCOMM Virtual COM Port on the PC; the port it creates can then be used by RRAS in a configuration similar to that on NT4. There are reports of this being used successfully, see [27]. Remember to set-up the dial script on the Palm as below.
Serial cable connections continue to work. The null modem device in Windows 2000 that need to be used is called “Communications cable between two computers”. It appears that the script sequence on the Palm needs slight modification though. I’ve seen a recommendation[28] that the sequence be changed to send two CLIENT prompts; this does seem to be required and does work.
The sequence is then:
Send: CLIENT
Send: CLIENT
Wait For: CLIENTSERVER
End:
This is consistent with the information in Microsoft KB article 145879[29]; it says:
“Microsoft Windows NT version 4.0 and Windows 2000 products, Remote Access Service (RAS) answers incoming calls after the first ring and Windows 2000 Routing and RAS answers on the second ring.”
My understanding is that RRAS alone is present in Windows 2000, and therefore I don’t understand the reference to Windows 2000 in the initial RAS related clause. My reading of it then is that Windows NT 4.0 (RAS) answers after one ring and Windows 2000 (RRAS) answers after two rings.
The ‘two ring’ script also works for Windows NT 4.0 with RAS, which just ignores the second instance.
Some of the Heart Rate Monitor (HRM) devices from Polar contain infrared connectivity; this allows the uploading of exercise data and configuration of the device etc. There has been much confusion as to how to use this connectivity from the various Windows OS versions. This information hopes to provide some illumination on the subject.
Not that the information here is based on the user manual and support documentation[30] that Polar provide on their web sites and also on analysis of infrared trace information provided by users of Polar products, I have no hands-on experience with the devices. The information is believed to be correct but, as always, any comments good or bad are welcomed.
The main thing one must understand about the infrared connectivity is that there are two separate types of infrared connectivity in these devices. The type used is noted by whether the model name ends with an “i”.
The (newer?) models with the “i” suffix, the S610i, S710i, S720i, S810i, communicate using the complete IrDA protocol suite. Window’s built-in IrDA software is used along with any IrDA adapters configured for its use; this is same mode of operation (and adapter(s)) that one uses to ‘beam’ to and from PDAs and Mobile Phones etc with the “Wireless Link” application, dial the Internet through a Mobile Phone, HotSync a Palm etc. In this mode, the “Polar Precision Performance software” (PPP SW) is set to use “IrDA” on the “Hardware” tab of the “Options”->”Preferences” dialog box. This mode should work on Windows 2000 and later, and also on Windows 98.
For the technically interested, this mode appears to use a TinyTP connection with Service Name “HRM”, with the connection initiated by the PPP software on the PC. [typo! Previously it said “NRM”. The Service Name is of course “HRM”, for “Heart Rate Monitor”]
The models without an “i” suffix, the S610, S710, S810, use a form of connectivity one might call “Direct IR”, it uses the very bottom layer(s) of the IrDA protocol suite alone. Polar supplies a serial connected adapter and also a USB connected adapter for use in this mode.
This mode requires direct access to the IR adapter on your PC and thus, for internal adapters in particular, the OS’s IrDA software must be disabled to allow this. The Polar documentation notes that this mode is only available on Windows 95. I would expect this to work in much the same way on Windows 98 though, for Windows 2000 etc see below.
Access to an IrCOMM Virtual COM Port is not of any benefit in this case. The PPP SW must directly access the physical COM Port representing/attached to the IR adapter. IrComm2k, for instance, on the other hand creates a virtual serial connection over the complete IrDA stack, which is of no use here. There is also no IrCOMM support in the Polar devices themselves.
The Polar documentation is correct in noting that the “Direct IR” mode is primarily available on Windows 95, it is likely however that this mode can be enabled on other platforms too. As noted above, it requires direct (‘raw’) access to the IR adapter through the physical COM Port to which it is attached.
In Windows 2000 etc any IrDA hardware built-in to a PC is plug-and-play discovered and is made accessible to the IrDA driver software alone and is not made available as a COM Port. No way to configure the system to instead provide access to the hardware as a COM Port is immediately apparent[31].
This is likely the case for USB adapters too. However it is not known whether the USB adapter Polar supplies is a general IrDA adapter and is discovered by Windows 2000 etc and assigned to the IrDA software though, or whether it remains available to the PPPSW directly.
However, an external serial port connected IrDA adapter is not automatically discovered by Windows 2000 (plug-and-play does not detect such serial port connected devices) and can thus be accessed directly through the respective COM Port. It is likely that such adapters can thus be used by the PPP SW simply by setting the PPP SW to use the COM Port to which it is attached. Feedback on whether this works is welcomed. If you have previously ‘added’ your serial IrDA adapter with “Add/Remove Hardware” you can stop the IrDA software from using it by deleting or disabling the respective device in “Device Manager”.
Along with my laptop’s built-in IrDA device, I have an external serial dongle. I have failed to have successful communications through this device in Windows 2000 (SP2/SP3) if it is configured in Device Manager to be allowed to communicate at rates higher that the minimum 9600 bps. I have seen other reports of the problem and with other dongle types, for instance I have taken part on a discussion[32] of this in the newsgroup comp.sys.palmtops.pilot.
The failure in communications occurs once a connection is requested; the initial ‘discovery’ operations are carried out successfully e.g. “Wireless Link” show peer devices in range correctly. This is interesting as 9600 bps is the rate at which the discovery process is carried out; after the discovery a connection is formed and a higher rate is agreed, so it would seem that the rate change process does not function correctly with these dongles in Windows 2000 (or at least in some installations or PCs?).
The IrDA specification can be downloaded from the IrDA web site,.
Microsoft provides access to IrDA communications through Winsock (IrSock?). It provides TinyTP, IAS, IrCOMM and IrLMP support through various socket options. Information can be found in the MSDN Library () the URL of the start page is currently.
Due to omissions and errors, particularly on the advanced features, in the Microsoft documentation (and in all other sources of documentation, even hardcopy, that I have found) I have created a reference guide for this subject. All the information in has been manually verified. It is at Windows IrDA programming.html.
If you link to ws2_32.lib then you’ll receive a 10047 WSAEAFNOSUPPORT “An address incompatible with the requested protocol was used.” error in your program on opening the socket. The answer is to link instead to the Winsock library wsock32.lib. (Thanks to Vijay)
I have finally worked-out how to use Lazy Discovery! In the end, there is nothing particularly special about calling and using the feature; but instead, I discovered after many tortuous debugging sessions that the feature only works when being run as an Administrator! I can see no reason why such high privileges would be required for this feature and can only assume that this aspect of its usage is a bug.
See my Winsock IrDA programming reference for information on its usage, see Question 22.
Good information on the Microsoft support for Infrared is contained in “Hardware Development”; the Infrared section is currently at.
As noted in Question 1 the “Image Transfer” (IrTran-P[33]) functionality of the Wireless Link application in Windows 2000 etc conflicts with Palm HotSync Manager and any other applications that need to listen on IrCOMM. The user can disable it in the Wireless Link Control Panel applet; see Figure 9. In Windows XP, the default is ‘disabled’ so you probably won’t have to do this manually.
Figure 9—Disabling Image Transfer in Wireless Link
Investigation (thanks again to Sysinternals’ Regmon[34]) has shown that this operation controls a Registry key. The Wireless Link application monitors this value, re-reads it on change, and enables and disables IrTran-P use of IrCOMM based on the value. The key is “HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Infrared\IrTranP\DisableIrCOMM”; values are 1 and 0, for true (i.e. disable) and false (i.e. enable) respectively. As noted whenever (and by whomever) this value is changed the service application reacts (likely by monitoring changes to this registry key). ActiveSync is seen to set this value when synchronisation starts and when it finishes, to remove the conflict over IrCOMM use.
Knowledge base article 278277[35] notes that the user interface can get out of step with the actual setting.
If one wants to replace the Wireless Link program (irmon.dll, ir) with another OBEX application, the local OBEX ‘port’ (actually IAS entry) needs to be free. Unlike with the IrCOMM equivalent “Image Transfer” as discussed in Question 1 and 26, de-selecting the apparent equivalent “Allow others to send files to your computer using infrared communications” in the Wireless Link Control Panel does not release the OBEX port (an attempt to ‘bind’ to “OBEX” fails with WSAEADDRINUSE 10048). To free the port actually the “Infrared Monitor” Service itself needs to be stopped e.g. “net stop Irmon”
GSM Mobile phones (cellular phones) have multiple features extra to dial-up that it can be useful to access over infrared, these include the phonebook (address book), the SMS message store, the ability to send SMS messages etc. Access to these features is generally available in two ways, through OBEX and through extensions to the AT command set. In the former, to transfer messages/phonebook entries to the PC requires the user to use the phone’s menus to send the object.
This latter mode is controlled by commands from the PC and same commands are used as if the connection to the mobile phone was through a (serial) cable connection. When using infrared an IrCOMM connection should be made to the phone; in Windows 2000 use the Winsock support and in Windows 98 (etc) use the IrCOMM Virtual COM Port.
The commands are described in standards published by ETSI (the “European Telecommunications Standards Institute“) and can be downloaded for free from their website (after registration). Two standards of interest are:
(Search at ETSI.org for 07.07 and 07.05 respectively).
Two example commands are AT+CPBR to read a phonebook entry and AT+CMGR to read a message.
I have no knowledge of what phone types support what subset of the defined commands.
Many people want to use IrDA hardware alone to communicate with peer devices and not use the complete IrDA protocol stack. This is using the hardware like a serial cable, simply having it send a stream of raw bytes using the HP-SIR format and not using the complete IrDA stack to do provide half-duplex turn-around, discovery, form a connection, provide flow control and retransmission etc.
Benefits to this are not needing an IrDA stack present on the two peers and it also will probably allow lower latency communications. However as noted above there is then no half-duplex turn-around, flow control, retransmissions etc.
Gaining access to the IrDA hardware for this use can be difficult. On Windows 2000 etc, as noted above, gaining direct to the hardware is only easy for serial port connected dongles. Devices connected to the motherboard or to USB are not easily accessed directly. IrComm2k is NOT for this purpose.
On the more recent Palm devices, e.g. the Tungsten T, Zire 21 etc, which run OS5 the OMAP processor they use contains the IrDA framing functionality and only will accept complete IrLAP frames. It is thus not possible to send arbitrary octets. From the FAQ[36] at pa1mOne’s developer site (PluggedIn Program),.
Other devices using that processor, or processors with the same feature, will not be able to send arbitrary bytes. It would be sensible either to not use ‘direct’ IR, or to define your protocol to use IrLAP format frames to transfer all data.
It should be noted that the IrDA devices in our PCs, PDA, mobile phones etc use the IrDA-Data standard and it not the same, or even very similar, to the infrared we use to control our TVs, Hi-Fis. Just because they both use the word “infrared” does not mean that they are related. The ‘modulation’ the two use are different, IrDA send frames etc etc.
Software for 'Consumer' IR can be found on the net, it generally needs a simple IR diode etc connected to a serial port and can't work with an IrDA dongle. Often IrDA dongles contain active components that reshape the given signal and thus can’t used to send arbitrary infrared pulses.
For instance I have a Girbil serial dongle which has a 8205 or some sort of microcontroller inside the case which I presume would likely do signal re-shaping, and requires special signals to set the bit rate it uses at any particular time. As to the signal shaping this probably affect the receive function more as the received signal will not appear similar to an IrDA IrPHY signal.
The web page at (and /furby.htm) says that you can use an IrDA device to send remote control like signals but can't receive, as far as the author can manage. This seems to be case at too though some may work and note that some of the dongles can be set into Consumer IR mode... Other related links:
Any information on this or any other relevant information including any errors in this document would be appreciated in order to improve this document. Please send emails to mailto:[email protected].
Document for information only, no warranties blah de blah, all trademarks etc.
[1] “Palm, Inc. - Updater for HotSync v3.1.1 for Windows” at
[2] Ideally Palm would have updated HotSync Manager and the PalmOS HotSync application to communicate directly over TinyTP (with an IAS Name of “PalmHotSync” perhaps) and thus remove conflicts over IrCOMM.
[3] PalmOne “Solution ID: 26288—Could not initialize library (when trying to beam) (Treo 600)” at.
[4] PalmOne “Solution ID: 29117—Can't use modem or other applications that use the Treo 600's serial port after installing the Portable Keyboard driver” at, also “Treo 600 Portable Keyboard Driver” at.
[5] European PalmDirect has the version 4.1 upgrade at, the USA store has it at.
[6]
Handspring’s “What is the Palm Enhanced Infrared Updater and why would I need
it?” at.
[7] IrComm2k () Version 2 pages at or depending on your language preference.
[8] From page “ZiLOG's Riverwave” “Using FileConnect Lite to transfer files between the Palm Computing Platform and PC is not always successful. Please reference the matrix shown below. …”. Note I have no experience with the Riverwave software.
[9] “hp LaserJet 2200 series more information, Wireless Printing” at
[10] Presentation “IrDA and Windows XP” at (from).
[11] Clarinet Systems’ EthIR LAN family of infrared access points
[12] Page in TechNet that note that Windows Server 2003 has IrDA support only in Standard edition include: “Understanding infrared networking” at, “To verify infrared support on a computer” at and “To send files using the command line” at etc.
Note each of those pages has a version for each edition, for instance the last page above is also at.
[13] TechNet Windows Server 2003, Wireless Network “Resources” page:.
[14] TechNet page on Irftp in Windows Server 2003 at
[15] “Technical Overview of Windows Server 2003 Networking and Communications”, NetworkingOver.doc at
[16] “325867 - HOW TO: Configure Your Computer for Infrared Communication in Windows Server 2003” at.
[17] “What's New in Windows Server 2003” Chat transcript at.
[18] “Brown acknowledges that the U.S. market for infrared in mobile phones is "anemic," and points to the way cell phones are used as the culprit. In Asia, users tap the IR port in their handsets to exchange personal contact information, make payment transactions and exchange pictures. European users often use the IR connection as a sort of wireless modem, linking the Internet access capabilities of their handset with other devices such as laptops. Neither is the case in the U.S. market, Brown notes.” from, Testing Infrared's Limits by Karen Brown, May 15, 2005,Wireless Week.
[19] “Release Notes for Windows Vista Beta 1 and Windows Server "Longhorn" Beta 1 ”
[20] Note digital Mobile phones e.g. GSM phones do not need nor will even contain a modem; a modem converts digital signals to pass over an analog phone system. All that Mobile phones need is support for the AT command set so that Windows can talk to them using a traditional modem driver. The ‘soft modems’ supplied for some modem phones convert the AT commands into the binary format accepted by the phone.
[21] “Security Update, August 19, 2001” at
[22] “Windows 2000 Does Not Support Mapping Virtual COM Ports to Infrared Ports (Q252795)” at
[23] “Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-046” at
[24] The history of IrCOMM usage in Windows 2000 and later is covered in two of my documents: “Window 2000 with Mobile phones (lack of Virtual COM port support)” at and “Microsoft IrCOMM in Windows XP and 2000” at
[25] “Palm, Inc. - Mobile Internet Kit, Supported Phones” at
[26] “Alvin Mok's Web”
[27] IrCOMM2k forum post “palm networking over irda” at However, if you use the CLIENT/CLIENTSERVER script on the Palm, the modification of the .INF file should be unnecessary.
[28] “Connecting a Palm Pilot to Windows 2000” at
[29] Microsoft Knowledge base article 145879 “How to Set the Number of Rings for RAS Auto-Answer in Windows NT 4.0/Windows 2000” at;en-us;145879
[30] References from Polar user manual and support notes.
From the “Polar Precision Performance SW 4” User Guide. Page 4:
If you are using Polar S810i, Polar S720i, Polar S710i or Polar 610i via computer's internal IR port select IrDA.
and:
Use Internal Infrared Port (Win95 only)
Polar S810, Polar S710 or Polar S610 HR monitors do not support IrDA infrared communication, but instead use so called direct infrared communication.
If you are using above mentioned monitors via computer's built-in IR port you have to select this option. Also, you need to disable the Windows Infrared Monitor in the operating system.
Note that direct infrared communication is available only with Windows 95 operating system.
Page 57:
Different Polar heart rate monitors use different methods for transferring exercise data to the computer.
The exercises from Polar S610i, Polar S710i, Polar S720i and Polar S810i are transferred using an infrared connection. You can use Polar IR Interfaces or other manufacturers' IrDA supported IR interfaces. Also computer's internal IR port can be used. With Polar S610, Polar S710 and Polar S810 data transmission is enabled through Polar IR Interfaces only.
and:
With Polar S810i, Polar S720i, Polar S710i and Polar S610i the exercises are transferred using infrared communication via Polar IR Interfaces or other manufacturers' IR interfaces.
With Polar S810, Polar S710 and Polar S610 exercise data can be transferred through Polar IR Interfaces only.
From FAQ article “How to use your PC's internal infrared on Windows 95”:
You can transfer information between Polar S610 / S710 / S810 HR monitors and Polar Precision Performance SW 3.0, by the internal infrared only if you have Windows 95 installed. In Win95, the infrared works as a generic serial port. In Windows 98 / Windows Me / Windows 2000 / Windows XP a COM port is handled as a virtual port. Due to this technical difference, i.e. lack of physical serial port it is not possible to use the Polar Precision Performance SW 3.0 and Polar S610 / S710 / S810 Heart Rate Monitors with these operating systems.
[31] It is possible that removing the “netirsir” “.inf” and “.pnf” files from the “%windir%\inf\” directory (move them to another location e.g. “c:\backup\”) and rebooting may be enough. This file (“netirsir”) contains the definition of the Plug-and-Play identifiers (IDs) for internal IrDA adapters and thus Windows will instead use the adapters’ COM Port identifier during discovery. Again if you have previous ‘added’ an adapter, remove it in “Device Manager” before rebooting. Feedback on this please.
[32] Thread “Infrared Hotsync only with von 9600 Bit/s possible?” in comp.sys.palmtops.pilot e.g. at
[33] “IrTran-P (Infrared Transfer Picture) Specification : IrDA Application for Consumer Digital Cameras” as IrTran-P_10.pdf at the IrDA website
[34] Sysinternal’s Regmon at
[35] Microsoft Knowledge base article 278277 “Use Wireless Link to Transfer Images” Check Box Is Cleared by Default, but the Feature Does Not Respond Correctly at;en-us;278277
[36] “Q: Why can't I use raw IR Mode on OMAP-based (Tungsten|T, Tungsten|T2, Tungsten|E and Zire71) products?” in PalmOne’s “PluggedIn: Frequently Asked Questions” |
Finland
Healthcare and decision-making in dementia
Consent
Consent to medical treatment
Consent to treatment is covered by section 6 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, No. 785 of 17 August 1992. According to this Act, patients must be cared for on the basis of a mutual understanding, which means that they must consent to treatment. If they refuse a particular treatment, the doctor must propose another medically acceptable alternative to which they are in agreement. In certain circumstances, a person can be treated against his/her will (please refer to the section on forced internment).
Concerning patients who are unable to consent, section 6.2 and 6.3 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients states:
“If a major patient because of mental disturbance or mental retardation or for other reason cannot decide on the treatment given to him/her, the legal representative or a family member or other person closely connected to the patient has to be heard before making an important decision concerning treatment to assess what kind of treatment would be in accordance with the patient's will. If this matter cannot be assessed, the patient has to be given a treatment that can be considered to be in accordance with his/her personal interests.”
“In cases referred to in paragraph 2, the patient's legal representative, a close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient, must give their consent to the treatment. In giving their consent, the patient's legal representative, close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient must respect the patient's previously expressed wishes or, if no wishes had been expressed, the patient's well-being. If the patient's legal representative, close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient forbid the care or treatment of the patient, care or treatment must, as far as possible in agreement with the person who refused consent, be given in some other medically acceptable manner. If the patient's legal representative, close relative or other person closely connected with the patient disagree on the care or treatment to be given, the patient shall be cared for or treated in accordance with his or her best interests.” (9.4.1999/489)
However, a person/persons who make a decision on behalf of a patient cannot forbid treatment which is necessary to ward off a threat to the life or health of the patient (section 9).
Consent in case of emergency
Section 8 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients deals with emergency treatment. It states:
“A patient has to be given treatment necessary to ward off a hazard imperilling his/her life or health even in cases where it is not possible to assess the patient's will because of unconsciousness or other reason.
However, if the patient has earlier steadfastly and competently expressed his/her will concerning treatment given to him/her, he/she must not be given treatment that is against his/her will.”
The right to refuse treatment
A competent patient has the right to refuse treatment. According to the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (section 6.1), if a patient refuses a particular treatment, the doctor must propose another medically acceptable alternative to which they are in agreement.
Health care proxies also have the right to refuse treatment on behalf of an incompetent patient. According to section 6.3 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, if the patient's legal representative, close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient forbid the care or treatment of the patient, care or treatment must, as far as possible in agreement with the person who refused consent, be given in some other medically acceptable manner. However, section 9 stipulates that health care proxies cannot forbid treatment which is necessary to ward off a threat to the life or health of the patient.
The right to withdraw consent
Competent patients have the right to withdraw consent.
Consent to non-conventional treatment
Competent patients have the right to give consent to non-conventional treatment.
Consent to the donation of organs and/or human tissue
It is possible for patients to consent to the donation of organs and human tissue through advance directives. Health care proxies can give such consent after the death of the patient.
Consent to research
Act N° 488 on Medical Research came into force on 1 November 1999. In this act, medical research is defined as being research which interferes with the integrity of a human being or a human embryo or foetus and whose intention is to increase knowledge of the cause, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment or prevention of the disease or its nature in general.
Paragraph 7 deals with consent from disabled subjects. This includes people who are unable to give their consent due to a mental health disorder, mental handicap or other equivalent reason.
Research can only be carried out on such people if the same scientific results could not be attained using other subjects and provided that the risk of causing damage or stress is limited. Furthermore, research can only be carried out if it could be expected to be directly beneficial to the participant or to other people either of the same age or with the same medical condition. Even if these conditions have been fulfilled, the participant's legal representative, close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient must give written consent after having received the necessary relevant information. The consent has to be given in accordance to the presumed will of a participant. The provisions of article 6 also apply in that consent can be withdrawn at any time before completion of the research. Finally, if the participant objects to any procedure used as part of the research, he or she must not be forced to undergo the procedure.
Advance directives and health care proxies
The legal status of advance directives
Advance directives have legal status in Finland according to section 8 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (No. 785/92 of 17 August 1992).
Section 8 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients deals with emergency treatment. A situation could arise whereby a patient, who is in need of emergency treatment, is unconscious or unable to express his/her will. According to section 8, doctors cannot give a treatment that is against his/her will, as expressed steadfastly and competently at some point in the past. In the sense that this section refers to the necessity to respect the previously expressed wishes of a person who is no longer able to state his/her preference regarding treatment, this can be considered as legitimising a kind of advance directive.
Paragraph 6.3 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients can also be interpreted as involving the possible use of advance directives in substitute decision making with regard to care [1] .
There are three categories of people who can decide on behalf of a person with incapacity:
- the legal representative who could be either a guardian who is entitled to represent his/her client in issues linked to the client’s person or a person appointed by the patient such as a power of attorney or continuing power of attorney in health care issues.
- a family member or
- another person who is closely connected to the patient.
These people are not placed in any order of priority. However, the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health has plans to alter the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients in such a way that there would be a priority list of the proxy decision makers. After the alteration the possible legal representative would have priority to make decisions.
Conditions surrounding the writing, validity and registering of an advance directive
A person must have sufficient capacity to make a valid advance directive. Competence is presumed unless proven otherwise. In case of doubt, a doctor should assess a person’s capacity.
There is no set procedure for writing or registering advance directives but they should be recorded in the patient’s medical file. An advance directive can be made orally (e.g. by a person in hospital) or in writing. If made in writing, it is advisable to have two witnesses. A doctor and/or lawyer may be involved in the process of making an advance directive but this is not necessary.
Advance directives are not limited to a set period of time.
There is a new decree from the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health on Medical Files (30.3.2009/298). Paragraph 18.4 of the Decree on Medical Files states that if a patient wishes to express (orally) his/her steadfast will regarding future medical treatment, it should be recorded clearly, along with his/her signature, in the medical files. It is also possible to attach a separate advance directive to the medical files.
What an advance directive can cover
The Act on the Status and Rights of Patients states that in emergency situations “doctors cannot give a treatment that is against the will of a patient, as expressed steadfastly and competently at some point in the past”.
In literature on jurisprudence it is interpreted that an advance directive can cover at least the following:
- The treatment of medical conditions;
- Care and welfare decisions;
- Research;
- Life-supporting treatment;
- Life-saving treatment; and
- The appointment of a health care proxy.
Nowadays, in practice, there are also so-called positive advance directives. These documents can express many kinds of wishes e.g. what kind of food and drinks the person likes, what their favourite clothing is etc.
Obligation to comply with instructions contained in an advance directive
In the case of emergency treatment, advance directives are legally binding. In literature on jurisprudence it is interpreted that they are legally binding in other cases too. At least it is good medical practice to comply with them.
The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health has plans to alter the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients. After the alteration, doctors will not obliged to comply with advance directives if it is obvious that the advance directive is based on a person’s false perception of their health condition, the nature of the illness or the effectiveness of the treatment methods and medication proposed. Similarly, doctors should not comply with an advance directive if the patient’s will concerning treatment and care has changed for the above-mentioned or a similar reason.
If it would be against a doctor’s personal beliefs to comply with instructions contained in an advance directive, the doctor must find a colleague who is willing to take over the treatment of the patient.
Amending, renewing and cancelling advance directives
An advance directive can be amended, renewed or cancelled at any time. This can be done verbally, in writing or through behaviour which clearly indicates this decision. It is not necessary for a person to have full legal capacity (i.e. in every domain) as a greater level of capacity is needed to write an advance directive than to cancel it. This has been discussed in medical circles as well as in literature on jurisprudence.
Access to information/diagnosis
The right to be informed
Section 5 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, No. 785/92 of 17 August 1992 contains the following provisions regarding the patient's right to be informed:
."
The above text can be interpreted as granting patients the right to be informed of the diagnosis.
Under section 9.1 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, “the right to be informed and the powers of the patient's representative”, allows for information to be given to certain people in order to enable them to make decisions and consent on behalf of the person with incapacity. The text is as follows:
“In the circumstances referred to in paragraphs 2 and 3 of section 6, the patient’s legal representative, close relative, or other person closely connected with the patient shall be entitled to receive any information regarding the patient's state of health that may be required to enable them to express an opinion and give their consent. (9.4.1999/489)”
Access to medical files
As a general rule, only the patient has access to his/her medical records.
Health care professionals and other people who are working in the medical domain cannot give information about a patient to outsiders without the written consent of the patient. (See Section 13 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, no. 785/92)
The right to designate another person to be informed on one’s behalf
Under the government’s proposal of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (185/1991) the legal representative is either a person appointed by a patient or a guardian (appointed by a court). If a patient has appointed someone to make health care decisions on his/her behalf (for example via an advance directive), such person has the right to be informed regarding the patient’s state of health as stated in section 9.1 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (see above). A patient can also appoint a “continuing power of attorney in health care issues” in advance of his/her incapacity (please see The Act on Continuing Powers of Attorney (648/2007)). Such donee is also a legal representative and also has the right to be informed under section 9.1 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients.
A legal representative (guardian), relatives and people who are close to the person with dementia can also be informed on his/her behalf although in their case, they would not actually have been designated by the person with dementia.
The doctor’s right to withhold information
Section 5 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, No. 785/92 of 17 August 1992 states that a doctor has the right to withhold information:
“when it is obvious that giving the information would cause serious hazard to the life or health of the patient.”
See section “access to information” above
The patient’s right to refuse information
Section 5 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, No. 785/92 of 17 August 1992 contains the following provisions regarding the patient’s right to refuse information:
“..information shall not be given against the will of the patient.”
See section “access to information” above
Confidentiality/disclosure of information to other people
Section 10 of the Constitution states that the private life, honour and home of every person shall be secured and that detailed provisions on the protection of personal data shall be prescribed by Act of Parliament. Patients must be treated in such a way that their human dignity is not violated and that their convictions and privacy are respected (section 3 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, No. 785/92).
Apart from the exception contained in section 9.1 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients, information about patients is confidential. Section 13 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (no. 785/92) covers the confidentiality of information in patients' medical files. As stated above in “the right to access medical files”, health care professionals and other people who are working in the medical domain cannot give information about a patient to outsiders without the written consent of the patient. Section 13.3 of section 13 of this act includes further provisions:
- information included in patient documents may be given if there are express provisions on giving it or on the right of access to it in the law;
- information necessary for the arranging of examination and treatment of the patient may be given to another health care unit or health care professional, and a summary of the treatment provided may be given to the health care unit or the health care professional that referred the patient for treatment and to a physician possibly appointed to be responsible for the care of the patient in accordance with the patient's or his/her legal representative’s oral consent or consent that is otherwise obvious from the context; and
- information necessary for arranging and providing the examination and care of a patient may be given to another Finnish or foreign health care unit or health care professional, if the patient, owing to a mental health disturbance, mental handicap or for a comparable reason is not capable of assessing the significance of the consent and he/she has no legal representative, or if the patient cannot give the consent because of unconsciousness or for comparable reason;
- information about the identity and state of health of a patient may be given to a family member of the patient or to other person close to the patient, if the patient is receiving treatment because of unconsciousness or for another comparable reason, unless there is reason to believe that the patient would forbid this; and
- information on the health and medical care of a deceased person provided when the person was still living may be given, upon a justified written application, to anyone who needs the information in order to find out his/her vital interests or rights, to the extent that the information is necessary for that purpose; the acquiring party may not use or forward the information for some other purpose.
Section 13 of the Act on the Status and Rights of Patients (30.6.2000/653) specifically addressed the issue of confidentiality of information contained in patients’ records.
Paragraph 13.1 states that information contained in patients’ records shall be confidential. Paragraph 13.2 states that health care professionals and other people working in or for health care units shall not disclose to outsiders information contained in a patient’s medical records without the written consent of the patient. If the patient is not capable of giving such consent, it can be given by his/her legal representative. In this Act, the term “outsiders” refers to people other than those who are involved in the care of the patient or in carrying out tasks related to the person’s care within or on behalf of a health care unit. The obligation to respect confidentiality remains in force even when the person is no longer employed or carrying out tasks on behalf of the health care unit.
End-of-life care and issues
Palliative care
Decisions about palliative care are made by a doctor but need to be discussed with the patient or patients’ health care proxy/proxies.
Special leave for carers in paid employment
The Act on Support for Informal Care (937/2005) came into effect at the beginning of 2006. Support for informal care is a statutory social service. The municipality is responsible for organising the support within the limits of its resources.
The purpose of the Act is to promote informal care that is in the interests of the person cared for (the client) by securing sufficient access to social welfare and health care services and by safeguarding the continuity of care. Support for informal care encompasses necessary services for the client, and compensation, leave and support services for the informal carer.
In section 5.2 of the Act it is stated that if, during a heavy period of care (e.g. looking after a terminally ill person), a carer is unable to go to work, he/she receives a minimum allowance of EUR 600/month.
Euthanasia
Active euthanasia is not permitted.
A competent patient may, however, refuse life-saving or life-sustaining treatment or write in an advance directive the kind of treatment that he/she would like to refuse in the future, should it be needed. Healthcare professionals who respect such wishes, which could be described as passive euthanasia, would not be prosecuted.
Healthcare proxies cannot forbid treatment which is necessary to ward off a threat to the life or health of the person they are representing.
Assisted-suicide
Assisted suicide is not considered a criminal act under the Penal Code of Finland (39/1889 and subsequent amendments).
Homicide, murder and killing
The Penal Code of Finland (39/1889; amendments up to 650/2003 as well as 1372/2003, 650/2004 and 1006/2004 included) includes the following articles which related to homicide, murder and poisoning:
Chapter 21 - Homicide and bodily injury (578/1995)
Section 1 - Manslaughter (578/1995)
(1) A person who kills another shall be sentenced for manslaughter to imprisonment for a fixed period of at least eight years.
(2) An attempt is punishable.
Section 2 - Murder (578/1995)
(1) If the manslaughter is
(1) premeditated;
(2) committed in a particularly brutal or cruel manner;
(3) committed by causing serious danger to the public; or
(4) committed by killing a public official on duty upholding the peace or public security, or because of an official action;
and the offence is aggravated also when assessed as a whole, the offender shall be sentenced for murder to life imprisonment.
(2) An attempt is punishable.
Section 3 - Killing (578/1995)
(1) If the manslaughter, in view of the exceptional circumstances of the offence, the motives of the offender or other related circumstances, when assessed as a whole, is to be deemed to have been committed under mitigating circumstances, the offender shall be sentenced for killing to imprisonment for at least four and at most ten years.
(2) An attempt is punishable.
Section 8 - Negligent homicide (578/1995)
A person who through negligence causes the death of another shall be sentenced for negligent homicide to a fine or to imprisonment for up to two years.
Section 9 - Grossly negligent homicide (578/1995)
If in the negligent homicide the death of another is caused by gross negligence, and the offence is aggravated (also when assessed as a whole), the offender shall be sentenced for grossly negligent homicide to imprisonment for at least four months and at most six years.
Bibliography
The National Advisory Board on Health Care Ethics (ETENE) (2008), Old Age and Ethics of Care. Report 2008 , Helsinki. ()
Sulkava, Raimo: Practice of Competence Assessment in dementia: Finland. In book Stoppe, Gabriela (edit.) (2008), Competence Assessment in Dementia . On behalf of the European Dementia Consensus Network, Springer Verlag. p.109-111.
[1] Please refer to the section on consent.
Last Updated: mercredi 27 avril 2011 |
December 1994 | Volume 45, Issue 8.
He’s having the club sandwich, she the chicken salad ordered when told there’s no seafood one. They began with a Bloody Mary apiece and are taking wine with the meal. They’ll split a serving of cake with the coffee. Our passing student cannot know that when they were of student age, to be able to do this the gentleman of this couple would have fought a lion and climbed a thousand mountains . . .
I’m a senior and in two days leave forever the University of Wisconsin. I’ve had my final exams, and now there’s a brief hiatus before the graduation ceremonies and I am in the Memorial Union’s recreational reading room going through Life magazine.
The door opens and Miss Clark walks in. I stare at her. In the years that are coming I shall as a newspaper reporter interview Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor. I won’t stare at them as I do at Miss Clark.
She sees me, and transfixed, paralyzed, I see walking in my direction someone for whom, if they did not exist, the terms Ice Princess and Dream Girl and American Beauty would have to be invented. I’m on a little couch. She seats herself on the edge of it. Ten thousand memories of my college days have vanished since then, but this moment lives on. Those glittering eyes.
She’s holding a book. “What’re you reading?” I get out my glasses and look at the title. ”‘Howard Roark laughed,’” I say. It’s the first sentence of The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.
Madison’s spring sun is shining, and outdoor tables have been placed on the patio overlooking Lake Mendota. Wisconsin is famous for being the only Big Ten university that serves beer; a 3.2 concoction is available in the Rathskeller downstairs. And they have coffee and snacks and things. I know what my next address is going to be; it’s the U.S. Army. Those big Korean War infantry divisions need replacements. So it’s a perfectly logical thing that I ask Miss Clark down to the Rathskeller. After all, I didn’t sit down next to her; she did to me.
Only once before have I ever talked at any length with Miss Clark. We were in a class in Russian history as juniors and a film was shown after normal class hours at Bascom Hall on the hill. You weren’t allowed to drive up there during class time but could in the late afternoon. I had a car—very rare among students. I went up, saw the film, a Soviet epic having to do with Napoleon’s defeat, and came out into the twilight, as did Miss Clark. I managed to inquire how she’d liked the movie. She praised the actor portraying one of Napoleon’s chief military opponents, Marshal Kutuzov, I suppose. “He was superb,” she said. Naturally I agreed.
“Are you going down the hill?” she asked.
“I’m driving down the hill.” She took this for an invitation, and we made for the Bascom Hall parking area.
As we walk, she takes out a cigarette and asks if I mind if she smokes. Let me, as we used to say in Philosophy 101, define our terms. She’s not asking if I’m against smoking . That concept is decades unborn, and the inventor of the no-smoking sections of restaurants is probably at his mother’s breast. We all smoke. What Miss Clark means is, Do I mind if she smokes standing up? There is a certain prohibition against a woman’s doing this.
I indicate that for her to do so is in my eyes perfectly permissible. (I do not add that if she grabs me by the collar, turns me around, and kicks me in the pants, that also would be perfectly permissible.) I take matches and offer a light before getting my own cigarettes. They are in their package. On Friday or Saturday nights they will be found in flat gold case snug in jacket pocket. There was never a weekend date of my college career when I was without jacket—and tie. On Saturday or Sunday afternoons students wore blue jeans, rolled up above white socks, and girls wore their fathers’ white business shirts, but such were not seen in class. Our great thick yearbook, The Badger , has numerous crowd shots of students going about the campus; not one is wearing jeans. All are wearing saddle shoes or loafers. How good-looking they are, how neat those shiny boys with short haircuts, how simply overwhelming those lovely, sweet girls in pleated skirt and blouse! So attractively clean-cut. People in the mass have never seemed in the intervening years between then and now to be so good-looking, not to me.
And now a girl who may have had campus equals in appearance, but no superiors, is getting into my car as I hold open the door. I go around the other side, take the wheel, drive about two hundred yards—and crash. A campus cop comes and gives a ticket to the other driver for being on my side of the road. An extremely bum rap. The accident wasn’t his fault, I told my roommate later. It certainly wasn’t my fault either. It was Miss Clark’s fault.
My car, which was registered in my mother’s name, had a dented fender. I called home. My father asked if I had been alone. I told him a fellow student was with me. He inquired about what today would be called the fellow student’s gender. I told him. That was bad, he said. I understood. The car was one of that middling percentage of America’s autos that were insured, and a young and single girl was the worst thing wanted around when your wife’s insured car gets into an accident. The girl’s lawyer points out that an injury impairs her chance to get married, and that means a good settlement and big future premiums for our family’s cars.
“But she wasn’t hurt,” I said.
“ You say,” my father snapped. “Call her up and find out for sure. Then call me back.” This showed the matter was really important. To send me to an out-of-town college at an annual expense, what with tuition, lodging, food, clothing, car, allowance of some twenty-five hundred dollars, was a matter of no moment—but long-distance calls were another story. They were strictly for big occasions. Some ceremony attended their placing, and serious discussions with operators. On Thanksgiving you could put in the call before noon and it might be late afternoon before the operator called to say your party was on the line. I have sometimes reflected in recent years that beyond casual profanity, music, proletarian-style attire, and long hair, here is the real dividing line between generations: Young people today think nothing of calling California—or even Prague.
My father’s demand was, as the first-graders of the day of that trifling accident would say when they got to college, nonnegotiable. I was going to have to nerve myself up to call the Delta Gamma house and ask for Louise Clark. (Miss Clark did have a first name, although no professor would ever use it, even as to them I was Mr. Smith.) She was always addressed as Weezie.
I dialed the Delta Gammas. A year or so earlier I had taken a shine to one of the girls there, Ginny, had called a few times for a date, and got instead the go-by. We always had a pleasant chat before she informed me that unfortunately she had made plans for the evening upon which I had requested the honor of her company. When, after graduation, The Badger arrived in the mail, I discovered that Ginny was the Delta Gamma president. And Weezie was vice president. There was a set-apart picture of them with the secretary and treasurer below the Delta Gamma group shot. My last contact with President Ginny was sometime before graduation when I was in one of the Quonsets, leftover Second World War Navy training quarters converted to an auxiliary library, and Ginny happened along and informed me that she was no longer just pinned but actually engaged. She was going to marry a doctor. “In ten years,” Ginny remarked, “we will be making seventeen thousand five hundred dollars a year.” I don’t know how she figured the exact amount. I remember the “we.”
When Weezie came to the phone, I told her that my father was very interested in the state of her health. She assured me she was entirely uninjured. That ended the matter.
Now we sat together on the couch in the Memorial Union library, and I did not ask her down to the Rathskeller. It was impossible that I do so, for the Weezie Clarks of this world are not for inviting down to Rathskellers. Permit me to explain, although some readers will not understand. Those readers are called . . . women. Oh please! Don’t call me a genderbiased chauvinist. I know all about it. Gloria Steinem was a guest at my wedding. She roomed with my wife on Junior Year Abroad. But what it is, there are men, a majority, I believe, who when young see selected dream girls as personages beyond reach and aspiration. This transcends time, background, personality, position, destiny. There was a young man of the last century who used to stand at a certain town square and stare each night at his Weezie Clark. He never spoke a single word to her. Once he wrote her an unsigned letter saying he was off to pursue studies elsewhere. When he returned, he wrote, they would marry. She threw the incomprehensible letter away, never connecting it with the silent kid who used to stare at her. Decades later a historian came to a widowed old lady to ask if she remembered that letter. And a fellow who used to gaze at her? The historian had talked with a boyhood friend of the young man. Vaguely it returned to the old lady. Imagine when she learned that her long-ago admirer’s name was Adolf Hitler.
Well, Hitler . How about Geraldo Rivera? Did you watch the program where he goes back to his college reunion? All he could talk about was wanting to see the blonde cheerleader who terrified him. He had interviewed the great of the universe, Geraldo let us know, but to interview Charlene! Then we follow him and his camera crew and see him almost gibber as he tells her how great she was. Then there’s the Robert Redford character in the film Indecent Proposal , who speaks of seeing a girl in the subway once thirty years earlier and that not a day has gone by since then that he hasn’t thought of her. Same thing for the Mr. Bernstein of Citizen Kane —saw a girl in white, with a white parasol, on a ferry. Never forgot. And my friend Richard, who had his Emily, and my friend Clyde with his Nell. “She didn’t walk on the ground, she floated above it,” Clyde told me. (A week later, when I had occasion to telephone his office and was told he was out, I said, “Let him know Nell called and she’s at the motel, waiting.” “What?” asked Clyde’s assistant. “Just give him the message.” An hour later Clyde called back. “You’re a dirty old man,” he said bitterly.)
I suppose such girls as these evoke in the boys who study them the imagined best of their era. And of anyone I ever took note of, Louise, Weezie, Miss Clark, then and later meant the fifties. She was, it seemed to me, so right for the times, calm, unruffled, healthy, reserved, polite, confident, serene, demure, every hair in place. Turbulence, trouble, problems—they could never touch her. In this she reflected our University of Wisconsin campus as we, the luckiest generation in the history of the country and the world, Depression and Germans and Japanese beaten by others for our benefit, went about getting something of an education although the classes were almost always deadly boring—not relevant, as would soon be said. There was absolutely no discussion of politics at all, no profanity in front of girls, no foreign food save for Italian plus Madison’s sole little Chinese restaurant, a rigid twelve-thirty deadline for girls on Saturday night, when dates ritualistically kissed before half of each couple made for dorm or sorority house and the other half went away into the night, thousands of lips meeting all over campus. There was no fear of the future. You wanted to be an engineer, go study it, get your diploma, go to work in the field as soon as you got out of the Army. You wanted to marry an engineer, go be a home economics major, find one, live happily ever after.
We were all very much of a piece, a great collection of what in Europe was once called the officer class. Miss Clark and I had some twenty-six hundred fellow graduates, and a search of The Badger ’s individual photos reveals precisely three faces recognizably black. The track team was all white. The basketball team was all white. There were many more boys than girls, for while a family might stretch itself to send a son to college, it would never do so for a daughter. Let her get a job, or married.
From our couch Miss Clark arose, returned The Fountainhead at the desk, and went away. Ten years or so later at a New York City party I fell into conversation with a young woman who turned out to be a D.W. grad of my era. She looked a sorority-girl type. I asked which one. Delta Gamma.
“Then you knew Ginny, of course.”
“Oh, sure.”
“And Louise Clark.”
She asked, “Were you a member of the I Love Weezie Club?”
How could I be? I hardly knew the girl. And in fact, I did not consider her human enough to know, let alone love. That was part of the equation. If I had believed she was of my genus, my species, I would have—well, who knows what I would have. But, you say, this is all so unbelievably childish . Look. I’ve been out of college since before most people were born. Do you suppose I’m going to be distressed because you think I’m childish?
I decided last year I’d find out what Weezie had been up to, these decades, the forty years.
She was a U.W. grad, a Delta Gamma, from Burlington, Iowa. “I love a good hunt,” said Assistant Editor Laura Allen of this magazine. But nothing turned up in the obvious places.
“She may have died, you know,” a friend suggested helpfully.
“Like hell she has! God wouldn’t let Miss Clark die on me!”
Laura Alien called. “She’s living with her husband in Princeton, New Jersey. No connection with the university—I checked there.” Laura had telephoned every library in Burlington, Iowa, got someone who knew someone, got a someone who knew the married name and phone number of the subject of our search. I came down from my upstate-New York home to talk strategy with a huntress no less successful than Diana.
“Call her and ask and answer as few questions as possible,” I said over sushi and sashimi at a restaurant near this magazine’s offices. How open my mouth would have fallen once, this same mouth into which chopsticks were propelling the food, at the idea, the very conception , that one day Japanese delicacies would make me a meal. “Her classmate the historian wants to discuss the old days,” I told Laura. “That’s the whole story.”
“Will she remember you, do you think?”
“Pretty unlikely. If she remembers anything, it’ll be the Bascom Hall accident. But who knows, she may have gone through half a dozen car-totaling accidents since then. Be careful. If she gets it into her bean that an insurance salesman or bond peddler is after her, we’re cooked.”
I wanted to hit her cold and with as few preliminaries as possible, I told a friend. “I hope she weighs three hundred pounds,” his wife said. “I hated those beauty queens at college.” “She’s a drunk,” confidently declared the wife of another friend. “She was brought up to be one of those television dears, so prim and sweet. Then the years come along, and she ages. Now there’s the sherry in the closet, the pills in the bathroom.”
Poor Miss Clark. The world was against her. But talk about working in darkness! All available information, and that of the scantiest conceivable nature, was forty years old. If when we were Wisconsin seniors someone had done what I was doing now, that someone when he was a senior would have grown up surrounded by Civil War veterans. He would not have been able to conceive of a world war. His town’s paved roads would become dirt after the trolley turnaround. Laura called.
“You have a date for luncheon at the Nassau Inn, Princeton, at one on January fifth. Her husband’s not well, and she prefers to meet you outside the house. She’ll see you at the entrance of the Greenhouse.”
I drove down the night of the fourth, took a room, slept, woke up, had coffee in the room, stood staring out the window for a very long while. Really, it’s true what you’ve always read: The years do fly by. We of the fifties who experienced the war as children in the very tiniest and last corridor of our minds remember England as the first nation of the world. I learned it when I was very young and can’t forget. Television—people like us, college students, the well-off, our families, we didn’t have television. It was in bars or for the poor in the slums. Their tenements spouted antennas. We didn’t have sets until years after the factory workers and laborers got theirs.
I headed downstairs in the Nassau Inn for the Greenhouse, passing through the Tap Room. My college roommate’s dead. He shot himself as a Johns Hopkins Medical School resident. It was in 1960, weeks prior to the KennedyNixon election. We played tennis a few days before. I always told myself that if I had a son, I’d name him for my roommate, but I had a daughter. I never think of him as forever young, young enough to be my son now, but as my contemporary.
I entered the Greenhouse antechamber. I’d be paying for this meal, and the hotel room, with a credit card. Of course. What else? Business expense. A tiny part of me says that’s wrong: you shouldn’t have something you can’t instantly pay for. My father never bought a car on what was called the installment plan, and in fact, he was dead before I ever permitted myself to drive a car I didn’t own 100 percent. What a way of doing things! If everyone followed that formula, the country’d grind to a halt. There was a trim woman with short pepperand-salt hair wearing a checkered cloth coat standing in front of the Greenhouse, looking in, her back to me. “Hello!” I said, and Miss Clark turned around.
Do you remember that coat you used to wear?” I asked. We sat in the Tap Room booth. It would be quieter there than in the Greenhouse.
“Coat?” We were drinking our Bloody Marys.
“It was darker than everyone else’s.” We all wore what were called storm coats, gray, with fur collars. Maybe they weren’t fur—who knows? There did not exist a soul who would have cared if they were.
“Oh, yes. It was a dusky blue.”
“Yes. Now, we were driving down Bascom hill after this movie from Russian history, you were wearing the coat, and you said to me the actor who played Marshal Kutuzov, he was superb. You know? Then I crashed the car. Remember?”
“Russian history,” she said.
“Yes, and then, you know, right before graduation, you came into that little reading room in the Union, you know—”
“Yes, the little reading room.”
“—and I was sitting on this couch, and you sat down and you had The Fountainhead , Ayn Rand, remember?”
“Well . . .”
She seemed warm and friendly, seemed awfully nice, was soft-spoken and well spoken, smiled easily—and was probably, I decided, thanking her lucky stars she’d ruled that we meet in a public place where the Princeton lacrosse team doubtless could be relied upon to appear and rescue her from the maniac of a lifetime ago. I talked about her sorority sister Ginny, how I used to ask her out.
“She was my roommate!”
“Really. Did she marry her doctor? Did they ever get up to seventeen thousand five hundred dollars a year?”
Miss Clark —Mrs. Something Else, as now she styled herself—gave me a look from eyes set behind glasses now. “At Christmas I get one of those letters that bring people upto-date. They live on the West Coast, have loads of children, and in every letter announce the birth of another grandchild.” Good Lord. Tough to visualize pretty and perky Ginny as a matriarch.
“Now, Weezie—”
“Weezie! Nobody calls me that except for one woman I know. She asked me, ‘Didn’t anyone ever call you Weezie? I’m going to call you Weezie.’”
“So am I. Now, Weezie, you seem very polite—you’re a credit to the old U.W.—and you’re working very hard not to make it clear that you don’t remember me in the slightest, isn’t that right?”
“Well . . .”
“Don’t remember the reading-room chat, don’t remember the car crash.”
“Oh, but I do. My back still hurts.”
She was grinning. It startled me that the golden girl from yesterday had a sense of humor. “I want,” I said, “to read you something that’ll perhaps make everything clear. This is from the introduction by Anthony Goldsmith to Flaubert’s Sentimental Education , London, 1941, edition.” I opened a notebook in which I’d written the quote—and found in the dim Tap Room light that I couldn’t read my handwriting. People who graduated from college forty years ago will run into reading problems in poor light. “May I borrow your glasses?” She handed them over.
“Please remember that my intensity was somewhat less than Flaubert’s. But the tone is right. You understand? Goldsmith says: ‘The image of Elisa, la toujours aimée , perpetually haunted his thoughts, and he once described her as the woman who had “ravaged his life.” . . . This curious unfulfilled passion was in fact Flaubert’s own romantic illusion. ... It was Flaubert himself who, forced by his inner nature, invested her with ideal qualities and made her typify the perfections of his youthful fantasies.’”
I took off the glasses. “You are my Elisa.”
We had been together for perhaps twenty minutes. “Well, there you are,” I said. There had been no change in the pleasant, interested expression on her face. “Now, I don’t know the first thing about you—never did. Begin at the beginning.”
“I’ve been thinking it’s about time someone came and interviewed me,” Miss Clark said.
She was the baby of her family. Everyone impressed upon her older sister, Judy, the necessity of getting A’s, but nothing about that was ever said to little Louise. She was her grandfather’s darling. He used to call her Little Bear and was Big Bear to her. She used to run and jump into his arms until one day her mother said he was getting too frail for that. Every Sunday she and Judy and their parents went across the street to the grandparental home on a North Hill bluff overlooking the Mississippi and Illinois to the east. Of Swedish and English ancestry, Clarks had been in Burlington since the 188Os. Grandmother presided at the Sunday meal, pressing with her foot a bell under the diningroom rug beneath the table covered with pads and a tablecloth to summon the maid.
“Bell under the rug, pads under the tablecloth!” I said. I hadn’t thought of that sort of thing for decades, for the lifetime of 90 percent of the people I see in the supermarket these days, who can’t remember the war, or Truman, or mail twice a day, once on Saturday, or Joe McCarthy, Sinatra, MacArthur, Rita Hayworth. “I didn’t think they had that out in the hinterlands. What, was there a butler too?”
“There was no butler,” she said firmly. “And the maid was an Iowa farm girl. Those little Midwestern towns, you know, worked very hard to be like Back East.”
Grandfather was a lawyer and served on the Burlington school board for years and years. “Thirty-eight, I think.” When the high school put up a new sports facility, it was named for him: the Clark Fieldhouse. She and her friends in long-ago days after school used to walk down to the center of town, three or four blocks from home. There were no suburbs. Beyond town limits was rich alluvial farmland. In town were places owned by members of her family. At one she bought a bright red strapless formal. (The word was also utilized to describe a dance where the boys wear evening clothes of varied style which were uniformly titled “a tuxedo.” A semi-formal means the girl wears her formal and he wears his double-breasted navy blue suit. In both instances his presentation of a corsage for wear at shoulder or waist or wrist is mandatory. Orchids, as we say today, send a message. Carnations send a different message.) Her grandmother was shocked when Louise modeled the new high-style purchase for her.
“How did you address her?”
“Grandmother Clark? Grandmother Clark.”
There was never any doubt that she would go to the University of Wisconsin, like her mother, like Judy, both of whom had been Delta Gammas there. She was, of course, a star of Burlington High School, and when later at my request she sent me photocopied things about her past, I found that was how she was titled along with three other people of the two hundred grads of her year: “Louise Clark well deserves to be placed among the Star Seniors. Outstanding in music activities, she plays first stand cello in the orchestra. On the student council this year, Louise acted as chairman of the assembly committee, and as another Senior honor, was elected Dolphin Queen. Throughout her years at BHS she has maintained a high scholastic standard. Scribblers and Y-Teens have kept her busy, and yet, with all these responsibilities, Louise finds time to indulge in tennis or swimming and in playing her large and varied collection of records. Her gay and sweet manner has won her many friends.”
‘What is a Dolphin Queen?” I asked on the phone after reading the photocopies.
“Well, at the swimming pool you were there in a bathing suit with high heels. And a tiara.” It wasn’t her only beauty-title situation. The Delta Gammas put her up for Summer Prom Queen and went about singing a song than which nothing could more controvert the facts: “Poor little Weezie Clark/She’s our shot in the dark/Her pointed head, her bony knees/She’s deaf and hardly sees. /You’ll vote for her/Because she’s just our Weeze.”
“Do you still play much tennis?”
“Twice a week, hour and a half each session. Do you play?”
“A good deal.”
“We’ll have to go at it some time, for blood.” Once I would have questioned if blood actually ran in this creature’s veins, that she had blood, or veins either. “But what,” anxiously asked my friend Richard, his Emily no doubt in mind, “if she beats you? It would be too humiliating.”
“Don’t you worry about that!” To myself I vowed that if she played like Steffi and Martina combined, she was still going down.
So Louise goes to the U.W.—and?
“I was going there, he was sending me there, my father told me, to get married.”
“That’s what he said?”
“That’s what he said. He was, my father, a very gentle man. He was a businessman. Furniture business. He lost his temper with me only once in my life that I can remember. I was fooling with a Venetian blind or shade and I said ——! and he sat me down and gave me a lecture.”
“So where’d you live freshman year, before you were pledged?”
“Ann Emery Hall.” I’d known for certain before asking. Ann Emery girls uniformly wore dark stockings on Sunday mornings for church. And little pillbox hats.
“Don’t forget the veils,” she said. As an upperclasswoman she was made Delta Gamma rush chairman as well as vice president. “These old alumnae came in to talk to me. I had a lot of trouble with what they said, lot of trouble. They told me if I wanted, I could let in one Catholic and one Jew. I didn’t like that. Years later, when my nieces asked for recommends for Delta Gamma, I said, ‘No! I won’t give you recommends!’”
“You had to be wildly popular with the fraternity boys,” I said.
She shrugged.
“Well?”
“Oh, I don’t know, maybe I had social opportunities some of the other women didn’t. I liked to go to those roadhouses outside Madison where they played jazz and Dixieland. I’ve always gotten a lot of satisfaction from music.”
“Did you have any unhappy love affairs, unrewarded crushes?”
“None that were disabling.” Pinned to a boy who had graduated with a ROTC commission, she visited him at his base, lost interest, broke it off.
“Were you a virgin when we graduated?” A part of me could hardly believe that I was actually asking such a thing of Weezie Clark.
“Until I married.”
“And your sorority sisters?”
“Some of them, no. The boys they were going to marry.” (“Ah, me,” said my friend Joe after talking of his Cynthia in the days when Ike was President. “Today your questions would apply to grammar school grads.”)
After college, husbandless, typing school behind her—what else, this was the fifties—she went to live in Minneapolis with Judy and Judy’s husband and to take dictation for the University of Minnesota alumni office. She met a young man who was of a group circulating about Hubert Humphrey. She worked in a Humphrey campaign. “Adlai Stevenson came, and he gave a speech standing on my desk ! I chalked in his footprints.” She married the young man in her hometown church, with reception afterward at the Burlington Golf Club. The minister talked about love, toleration, understanding, and then at the club got loaded, had a fight with his wife, and fell into the swimming pool. They laughed about it for years.
Her husband was very successful, of course. (If you couldn’t be successful in those years, forget it.) His career took them to Washington, the Midwest, California, back to Washington. She had toddlers at her feet. She would work three days to prepare dinner parties served on her family’s china and eaten with their silver and on damask her mother had shown her how to iron correctly.
The sixties came in, and she heard there was a project in Cabin John, Maryland, to work with black children who were suddenly going to be put into integrated schools. They were completely unprepared. She went with her kids daily to be with them and their mothers.
“What— you ? ‘I’m here, blonde, beautiful, blue-eyed, there she is, Miss America’?”
“You don’t come off like that. You go in, ‘We’re all mothers, we all have kids.’ I remember those dark eyes. They wanted what we want. What we did was a model for Head Start. I’m very proud of that.” She’s kept it up to the present day—works with kids in Trenton, half an hour from Princeton, in what once was called the slums, then became the ghetto, and now is the inner city. This gun problem—a girl she’s been counseling, seven, eight years old, was recently shot in the knee.
Washington then was foaming, it seemed to her, with a thousand new impulses, as was the country, as was Burlington, where the cousin who had sold her the red formal found his store getting killed by the huge malls out in what had been farmland. Once some aunts came to visit. She drove downtown to pick them up and brought them home through a demonstration being dispersed by police. “They had come from Iowa to visit their nation’s capital, and they were wearing long white gloves. I ran up the windows because of the tear gas.”
The kids meant PTA, sports to take them to, courses, special this and special that, and her husband served a term as undersecretary of a cabinet department while the fortyish matron took classes at American University. At Wisconsin she had played, but now she was ready to do something, and got a fine arts degree as it came to her that she could do something for a living and enjoy it. “Europe has its things, we have our things,” and she got involved in folk art and antiques: weathervanes, furniture, decoys, stoneware, quilts, and primitive paintings, one of which she bought for a few hundred, soon to turn down an offer for forty-five thousand.
She felt restless in her marriage. “Did you have affairs?”
“No. I knew bored women who did that—secretive romances. I had other things. The antiques business is allconsuming, shows, promotion, travel, setting up booths; it’s very challenging and very pleasant.” The kids were in college. She had some money from the sale of her dead parents’ house. “I told my husband, Tm leaving.’”
She went to Bucks County in Pennsylvania and opened Louise Clark Antiques, lived over the shop, opened and closed when she felt like it. She met and married an executive from Princeton. After a few years he became very ill, and she gave up business. She departed his sickroom for work with the inner-city children, classes in pot- tery and ceramics, weekly participation in a water-testing program in the area around Princeton, and tennis.
Hours passed as we sat in the Tap Room. References I made to her University of Wisconsin appearance and the impression it created never elicited a response. She didn’t seem very interested. She hadn’t even kept her copy of The Badger . The week I once spent following Joe Louis around came into my mind. He’d had no interest at all in talking about his fights but spent hours reading The New York Times , asking me from time to time the meaning of words he didn’t know.
Like Joe Louis, she seemed a demon newspaper reader. She appeared to have gone through every Times story of the past ten years. She had questions about what I’ve been doing since Madison days, with far fewer about what I’d done in college although she politely listened and laughed when I described my adventures in the Delta Delta Delta house as a waiter. Sir Gawain, the Kitchen Knight, I had called myself. That to enter by the front door and not the basement meant instant dismissal was a matter frequently brought to the attention of the waiters by the Tri-Delt housemother. I violated the rule by defiantly going in to pick up one of the sorority sisters I’d been seeing unknown to the others, and then quit before the witch of a housemother could can me. I told about the time when it seemed to me best for all concerned that I grab a large paintbrush sitting in a filled can and with it slap in the mouth my volatile friend Polly G. “I gained the impression,” I told Weezie, “that it is not entirely pleasant to get your teeth covered with green paint and then have me sit on your chest and remove it with turpentine.”
“I wouldn’t think so,” she said thoughtfully. Twilight fell upon Princeton outside the Tap Room as indeed it is falling, and has fallen, upon those who knew the Langdon Street and University Avenue of the Madison of forty years ago and shopped at Renny’s and drank sodas at the Pharm and martinis at the Manor. A couple of months ago I was in an elevator with Joe of Cynthia memories, and a very pretty young woman probably born during Kennedy days came in. She struck up a conversation with us and continued it for a few minutes in the lobby. She likely would not have done that if we were of her day and her place in time, but we seem harmless now.
So it is that there isn’t a bar in the world today where Miss Clark’s entrance would stop guys dead, and as I looked at the friendly and intelligent woman, it was almost impossible for me to see the awesome girl. Yet she was there, a little. I felt rather proud of myself for being with her, tell you the God’s honest truth. I once read that every cell in the human body is replaced every seven years. It’s one of those things you read. So the cells of that boy whose Social Security number is mine, whose signature still looks the same, whose writing style despite all these years of professional experience I have not improved by more than 10 percent—his cells vanished long, long ago. Yet to a certain extent I was still at his beck and call, for I could never look quite dispassionately at the Miss Clark of my youth. Did I think of what might have been? Not a bit of it. Flaubert doesn’t get Elisa. If he does, there’s no Sentimental Education . |
Karabagh’s Freedom Celebrated on Capitol Hill
Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Headlines Congressional Tribute to 25 Years of Liberty
WASHINGTON—Chairman of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee Ed Royce (R-Calif.) joined with fellow members of the Congressional Armenian Caucus and the visiting Minister of Youth and Culture from the Republic of Nagorno Karabagh (Artsakh), Narine Aghabalyan, in a bipartisan Capitol Hill celebration on March 13 marking the 25th anniversary of the Artsakh democracy and freedom movement.
House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman, Ed Royce (right), with Nagorno Karabakh Youth and Culture Minister Narine Aghabalyan (center), and senior Appropriations Committee member Adam Schiff (left) at the March 13th Capitol Hill celebration of twenty-five years of freedom for Nagorno Karabakh.
“Nagorno-Karabagh is all about freedom. Freedom was the inspiration for the Nagorno-Karabagh democracy movement back in 1988. Freedom has been the cornerstone of this proud republic’s remarkable growth over the past quarter century. And, today, 25 years later, freedom remains the key to finding a peaceful and democratic way to finally bring an end to Azerbaijan’s aggression,” said Armenian National Committee of America Aghabalyan, remarks by Royce, comments by the two co-chairs of the Armenian Caucus, Frank Pallone (D-N.J.) and Michael Grimm (R-N.Y.), a moving speech by Representative Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), and messages by Congresswomen Anna Eshoo (D-Calif.) and Jackie Speier (D-Calif.). Congressman David Cicilline (D-R.I.) welcomed Aghabalyan to the event, and participated in the evening’s celebration. Staff representing over two dozen Congressional offices also participated.
“The Nagorno Karabagh Republic is a legal state, which was created through the free expression of the democratic will of the people of Karabagh, and it is, in fact, the non-recognition of this state that contradicts international laws and norms,” Aghabalyan explained. “Our unrecognized status prevents the full realization of the rights of the people who live in Artsakh. It is appropriate to cite the words of the third president of the United States, an outstanding public figure, Thomas Jefferson: ‘Everything is changeable in the world except the natural rights of people.’”
The English-language text of Aghabalyan’s remarks are available here.
Rep. Grimm, the newly announced Republican co-chairman of the Armenian Caucus, reflected on the growing international support for Karabagh’s independence. “If history has furnished any conclusion, it’s that Nagorno-Karabagh’s assertion of independence is hardly a fleeting or temporary desire; it’s actually an ancient and salient aspiration that must be part of any permanent resolution if the avoidance of future conflict is going to be a serious goal,” explained.”
Nagorno-Karabagh Youth and Culture Minister Narine Aghabalyan speaking with Congressional Armenian Caucus Co-Chair Frank Pallone (D-N.J.) and NKR Representative in the U.S. Robert Avetisyan.
Pallone concurred, noting that “There are those on the other side that keep insisting that somehow the principle of self-determination should not be supreme, and it should always be. … Karabagh of Azerbaijan’s pardon, praise, andagh voted for independence,” said Royce. “We believe it is time for peace. We believe it is time for the angry rhetoric to cease.”
Condemning the Safarov scandal,. Anna Eshoo stressed, “This milestone for the people of Nagorno-Karabagh holds particular meaning for me as an Armenian-American. Nagorno-Karabagh has faced much difficulty in its history, but its continued push for growth and democracy demonstrates the determination of its people to progress beyond intolerance and violence.” Rep. Jackie Speier’s message underscored Nagorno-Karabagh’s progress, noting that “the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabagh have fought back against attacks on their institutions, their livelihoods, and their very right to exist, and against all odds they have succeeded in creating a democratic society with a vibrant culture and an enduring respect for the pursuit of peace and justice.”
ANCA Executive Director Aram Hamparian with incoming Congressional Armenian Caucus Republican CoChair Michael Grimm (R-N.Y.).
Armenia’s ambassador to the U.S., Tatoul Markarian, and the representative of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic in Washington, D.C., Robert Avetisyan both offered policy-driven remarks on the part of their government. Hamparian shared the Armenian-American community’s enduring support for Artsakh’s national and democratic aspirations, as manifested through a broad array of federal- and state-level advocacy initiatives undertaken by the community to support and sustain the Nagorno Karabagh Republic.
Ambassador Markarian, in his speech, said, “By revising reality and cultivating anti-Armenian hatred, Azerbaijan is seeking to prepare the moral ground, both domestically and internationally, for restarting the war against Nagorno-Karabagh.” He went on to explain that “Azerbaijan is just buying time for preparing a new war, which underscores the urgency of the recognition of the Nagorno-Karabagh’s independence by the international community.”
The standing-room-only event was well attended by the Washington, D.C.agh’s freedom, among them Representatives Frank Pallone (D-N.J.), James Costa (D-Calif.), Judy Chu (D-Calif.), Michael Grimm (R-Calif.), Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), and David Valadao (R-Calif.).
Aghabalyan, a journalist by trade, represents an energetic new generation of leaders who are charting a bright future for the independent Republic of Nagorno Karabagh. the Ministry’s job-placement efforts are finding meaningful work for young citizens of the Republic.
ANCA Legislative Affairs Director Raffi Karakashian testified on March 14 before the U.S. House panel responsible for foreign aid, in support of increased direct U.S. assistance to Nagorno-Karabagh. To view this document, visit. A 30-second ANCA video was also. The video is available on the ANCA YouTube page at.
In an attempt to export Baku-style repression to Washington, D.C., a handful of pro-Aliyev protesters outside the event sought unsuccessfully to discourage participation in the Artsakh freedom celebration.
Why do you guys feel so celebratory when congressmen beholden to your votes and money say and do what you want them to say? It is like celebrating that the government official I have bribed does as asked. Lobbysts like ANCA is a living proof of the kind of deficiencies American democracy has: a small vocal minority hijacking a government policy on a topic of interest to that minority, at the cost of the majority. True, Karabak has little value to an American either way, but it is no secret that if not Armenian lobby US would be all over Azerbaijan in terms of overall national interests, because of European energy security, common interest vis-a-vis Iran, countering Russian influence in Caucasus, etc. What does Armenia have to offer to US? Nothing. And please don’t waste your breath on “Because Armenia is a demoracy, is a superior moral country etc.” In international politics, there are only common interests. And regarding Caucasus, the Armenian lobby in the US has distorted the Congresses clear view to what is more imporant to US national interests.
Sour grapes Kerim:
You cannot stand the fact that Azerbaijan’s US$ billions are being blunted by our grassroots efforts at very low cost.
US has no national interests in South Caucasus. If it did, it wouldn’t stand by and watch as their ‘ally’ Georgia – under the leadership of their own neocon plant Saakashvili – was crushed by Russia.
And now Georgia is gradually returning to its normal, traditional relationship with Russia.
Soon Azerbaijan will be completely isolated from its big brother Turkey. And Russia and Iran will dismember Azerbaijan the minute it allows an attack on Iran from its bases. Georgia will block any help to Azeris through its territory under Ivanishvili.
Azerbaijan has no value to the West other than oil, which peaked around 2010 or so and is running out. It is nothing more than a petrol station disguised as a country. Azeri leadership is already in panic. Remember the hysterical attack Aliyev launched on BP ? Natural gas cannot replace oil: the world runs on oil.
Bias, bias, bias
Why? Because US congressmen are among the most powerful and influential politicians (if not individuals) in the world. That’s why dozens of foreign nations and diaspora members spend so much money lobbying.
kerim does not understand or conveniently overlooks that Armenian MAIN ISSUE IS NOT NAGORNYI KARABAGH(<ARTSAKH)but…..GENOCIDE RECOGNITION BY GREAT TURKEY…
restitutions/compensations for blood SHED…Artsakh is for 25 yrs already Independent Republic. We want above issue to be resolved….
The world owes Justic e to armenians-yes including great Turkey…
so don´t get disturbed when NK is sue is discussed in D.C. or anywhere else.
Tryu to get over the wrong assumption that Armenian-Turkish protocols will be excersized leaving aside OUR HUGE LOSSES in Western Armenia….
We were brutally EVICTED FROM ANCESTRAL HOMES,LANDS from VAN,Bitlis, Ezinchan, kars, Ardahan, igidir mava………so think in that diorection.
Nakhijevan is also my MOTHERLAND and hundreds of thousands as well.
prepare yourself for above.NK is ¨¨eliminiziman getti¨¨¨my turkish ,please excuses me is very weak,i speak iranian turkish which the MODERN EUROPEAN TURKS DO NOT APPROVE OF.Sorry for that..that means went out of our hands………
So take it easy you have plenty of LAND ,OIL GO ENJOY IT…. .
Avery, you say Azerbaijan has no national intersts concerns for US other than oil. Well, true, but that is one big “Other than.” Oil and energy security are big factors in international politics. Dimissing that glibly is rather naitve. Of course, US cares very little about Azerbaijan “otherwise.”
I like this kind of conversation on politics (versus name-calling), and do welcome your comments back… Now, for Georgia. I would not say Georgia means zero to US. Instead it is worth much less than what the silly Saakashvili thought. Russia called US bluff. But Russia did not go all the way. Why? Because that was a red line for US.
As for Azb, I think it is worth much more to the US than Georgia is. Energy security, again, is no small thing. Azb can help Europe reduce its dependence on Russian energy, which can be used to blackmail Europe into not following the US suit on matters important to US.
As for Iran, yes, if the war started, things CAN turn out very badly for Azb. But, ironically enought, Russia can actually be more of a protection for Azb in that regard than Turkey/West. There are still post-Soviet solidarity, plus the last thing Russia would want is to have Iranian Islamism at its doorstep in Dagestan (i.e., letting Iran take over Azerbaijan).
The point is, yes, Iran war can hurt Azb badly. But we won’t have a choice to be neutral. One, Iran is an existential threat to Azb (and its regime). Average Iranian thinks Azb to be stolen by Russia and want it back. By the way, they feel the same way about Armenia too. Other reasons too why we won’t stay neutral. they will bomb us, fine. But don’t overestimate Iran too much. people thought the same thing about Iraq before it fell apart like dominos. And remember that there are about 25m Azeris in Iran, which will be more than happy if Iran fell apart.
What it means for Armenia. There is 50/50 change that the war with Iran will greatly benefit Azerbaijan, even putting it in a position to get Karabak back as a pay-back for its contribution with Iran. I know some Armenian political analysts are worried about this possibility. The potential savior for Armenia, again ironically enough, would be Russia. But the question is, when things get really really messy, with US, israel part of the equation, plus even Turkey, would Russia want to get involved on your side? True, they wont let Armenia disappear (and that is not on the agenda so to speak anyways), but it won’t kill Russia to stand by and let the chips fall wherever they may in Karabak.
Why would mostly Sunni Dagestanis welcome Iran when the mostly Shia Azerbaijanis won’t even do so? You’re right though that Azerbaijan has always been a buffer state for the Russian/Soviet government, just like Belarus was back in the early 20th century. And both were largely made into “nations” through Soviet nationality policies, which is why Belarus can’t separate their nationhood from its Soviet origins and why Azerbaijan has produced laughable propaganda about everything from primordial Azerbaijani Caucasian Albanians to Azerbaijani “national poet” Nezami.
“but it won’t kill Russia to stand by and let the chips fall wherever they may in Karabak.”
I thought that’s what they were doing in the early 1990s, when they were telling Armenians not to advance further east of Karabagh?
Gaytzag, I understand that your big beef is with Turkey. Then take it with them. Hating us Azeris over Genocide is like hating Guatemala over what Mexico may have done. I know that Turkey is too strong for you to confront. So Azb has been, to some extent, a proxy for you, which explain, some not all of, the viciousness of the Azeri-Armenian conflict.
As for Karabak is gone, of course you would say that. But just think about it … In the same very paragraph you talk about the desire to get Western Armenia back from Turkey. Can I say the same thing to you then? “Forget it, it is gone. Get over it.” Of course, not.
Kerim Khan,
There are some donkeys left over since 1994 war, in Karabakh. Why don’t you get a visa from Artsakhi government, for a friendly visit!!
Avery,
This man Kerim,really likes to take conjectures and divide, unite, destroy , ally countreis to ea other.he should go teach diplomacy in Baki(sorry Baku).
How you wish to mislead others8not me9 that azeris could ber our friends again.Tell that to yours and other non Armenians.Armenians and iranians hav e very important thing in common.They know Turks,whether from Baku or from istanbulla. After the 2nd third time over, of Armneian massacres by axeris,no any Armenian in his her right mind will ever believe in your sermons.We are good as it is nowaway from ea other.You go grind your oxydated axe elsewhere(not referring to Safar(oghlu) axe here.Excuse the reference but it is true.Here few would believe in any kind of rapprochement with you people.
Why go far? see how Cypress Greeks broke off with Turkey…
Anyhow, keep imagining wars…there will not be any as long as the oil flows..when it stops,what in twenty yrs then by then We shall have seen a NEW COUNTRY between armenia and great Turkey called K U R D I S T A N andthat is not a prophecy ,it is in the press,North American press..
Witness Mousoul Oil in already near independent smaller kurdistan—-
So mucnh for now.Takle it easy, who knows maybe a MANTASHEV (MANTASHIAN) HEIR will come and claim the Baki Oilfields and few others(this is my hypothetic) go at it….WE don´t forget <THAT EASILY THAT FIVE FAMILIES THERE STARTED THE EXPLORATION AND PRODUCTION OF OIL IN LAST CENTURY WITH ref. to said you can look up in Oil magazines old ,rather very old…but there!!!!
Addendum,
Since many here do not have Sattelite T.V. and watch what goes on in BAku,Axerbaiojan,
A recent short documentary shows how CHILDREN IN AXERBAIJAN SCHOOLS ARE TAUGHT TO HATE ARMENIANS AND KILL THEM????????
tHIS OPENLY VERY OPENLY…….
I trust the T.v. channel in Ra will repeat that to show to our countrymen(those who are in slumber) to see what is being taught in neighbouring axerbaijan!!!
Hagop, if Stalin essentially created the Azeri nation, as you claim, then how about the ~20m Azeris living in Iran? Did he create their ethnicity too? Or how about the fact that prior to Soviets coming, there was actually a republic called Azerbaijan. Of course, don’t let facts get in the way …
As for your point about Albania, again, what do you you think happened to them? Did they dissipate into air? Obviously, they were not Armenian, because there was already a separate nation called Armenia at the time. Given that the DNA tests show that Azeri are a local Caucasian people speaking Turkic due to historical elite language domination, it is the more probable thing that they were Turkified.
You Armenians must finally come around and accept science as science when it comes to dreaming up the myth that Azeris are nomads from Mongolia (which I guess justifies in your minds their ethnic cleansing from their ancestral homes).
And here is science on Y-chromosome frequency (passed from father to son):
- Azeris: H (26%) and U (20%), followed by T (11%), J (11%), and HV (10%).
- Mongolians: C3 (38%), N3a (13%), O3el (11%), all of the above Azeri Y chromosomes (0%)
Source: Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times (Genetics Society of America)
As for Azerb being a buffer state for Russia, that actually could be more accurately said of Armenia than us. As part of the Turkmenchay agreement with Persia in 1828, Armenians were brought from Iran into Karabak. From the words of Griboyedov, the Russian general/diplomat overseeing the Iran affairs: .”‘ Russian did the same with the war with Ottomons, settling the area with Armenians. Just listen to Putin giving speech in Armenia proudly confirming this historical fact: “Didn’t we say we will settle Armenians in Caucasus? Well, we did!” Link:
All this does not mean there had been no Armenians before all this in Caucasus. There were, but in much smaller numbers. True, you may or may not have ruled the roost for 50-60 years 2000 years ago. But at least since the Karakoyunlu 14th century, that is, for the last 700 years, it has not been our ancestors’. As for what was happening before then, Persians had been the kind for a long time, not Armenians.
By the way, wasn’t there a monument in Karabak, celebrating the 150th year of their migration to Karabak. I am sure it is gone now.
In my exchanges with you on this website, I have never referred to Azerbaijanis as being from Mongolia. Not once.
Now let me begin by addressing your points. The Azerbaijani nation (as it is now understood by people living within Azerbaijan) was certainly created and nurtured by the Soviet government. Before then, the level of national consciousness among them was extremely low, which is why I compared them to Belarusians.
After several centuries of Perso-Turkic (mis)rule, it’s not too surprising that Armenia and Karabagh were emptied out of its Armenian population (especially the Shah Abbas’ violent deportations of Armenians from the Nakhichevan/Yerevan area. Their descendants still live in modern Iran, in a community within Isfahan known as New Julfa). Armenia can’t be a buffer state of Russia (it does not border Russia), but during the Soviet period that was certainly the job of Azerbaijan (as the Soviets even had plans to take over northern Iran). As for the Armenians who returned to their historic homelands once they were liberated by the Russians… can you blame them?
I did not say that Caucasian Albanians disappeared into thin air. What I said was that Azerbaijanis have produced laughable propaganda about them and this is true. The bitter truth is that the Caucasian Albanians were extremely Armenized; their alphabet was created by an Armenian, their religion was close to Armenian Apostolic Christianity, etc. Azerbaijan simply attempts to distort and misrepresent anything vaguely non-”Azerbaijani” within their territory as Caucasian Albanian. They even said the Georgian Davit Gareja monastery was Caucasian Albanian. These mechanisms were developed and perfected during the Soviet period. That is what I am trying to say.
“By the way, wasn’t there a monument in Karabak, celebrating the 150th year of their migration to Karabak. I am sure it is gone now.”
I’m not sure why Kerim hans are allowed to post their Azeri propaganda lies day after day. It would be OK for them to bring something new freshly developed in Sultan’s Aliyev’s “Ministry of Truth” but it is not OK to keep reposting the same lies after they were proven lies.
The lie about the monument is one of such examples. Yes, the monument is still there. The Azeri Turks just twist the truth a bit. The monument is dedicated to 150 years since Armenians of that village RETURNED to the homes built by their ancestors.
Azeri Turk propagandists know that very well but keep posting this nonsense conveniently replacing the word RETURN with “migration” and than applying it to entire Artsakh when in fact the monument sign talks ONLY about that particular village.
See, this is not about genetics. It is about a conflict between a nomadic Turkic civilization and native peoples of the lands they now occupy. For a Turk, migration is the only way known to them. For Armenians a return to their ancestors graves is the only way. When these two civilizations try to talk to each other or explain to the rest of the word they think that the other side thinks about the same (and the only way known to them) thing.
Nomadic ancestors of different Turkic tribes now commonly referred to as Azeri Turks had no graves. They could not maintain graves or any memories/emotional attachments to places. They were weak and constantly moving. They were in conflict with other nomadic tribes and had to escape bad climate changes in Central Asia. That’s what brought them to Armenia and Caucasian Albania.
The only way for them to stay in such areas inhabited by more technologically advanced sedentary civilizations was to destroy them with their “know-how” – genocide. They didn’t start it in 1915 – they started it right after they were forced out of their steppe comfort zone a thousand years ago. This is why you cannot find Albanians – they were massacred and forcibly assimilated.
On the other hand, Iranian civilization was able to resist for a long time and maintained its autonomy. Northern parts of Iran were ruled by Turks and only recently switched to Turkic language. These territories are called Iranian Azerbaijan. This is just a name for several provinces. Iranians who speak Turkic live there. They are different from the artificially created “Azerbaijanis” of Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan created by Stalin on the lands cleared from their native populations by Turkish expeditionary corps under the command of Nuri Pasha, brother of Enver Pasha.
First, many thanks again to the AW moderators for posting my “anti-Armenian” posts
It is the best forum out there … although not really dedicated to Azeri-Armenian-Turkish relations per se, it is the best place for having conversations with “the other side.”
Hagop, thanks for the nuanced response to my comments. Right off the bat, I will concede these points:
- Yes, Soviets encouraged Azeri national identity in contradistinction to “Mulsim” or Turkic. But this did not mean the identity had not existed before; it just had had other salient points to it (e.g., Mulsim vs. Chrisian Caucasians, etc). Also, this does not mean that the ancestors of modern Azeris are newcomers. It is just that their identity has evolved, which is not a bad thing (a case in point, Germany).
- Yes, Azeris do sometimes go overboard in tagging Armenian churches as Albanian. The truth is, for a very long time, Azeris and Armenians have lived side-by-side in other people’s empires, Persian, Russian, etc. So they were intermingled. One village was Azeri/Muslim, the next Christian. In the past, I have confronted the sillines of some Azeri friends when they called ruined churches as Albanian (“look, it is unlikely that these bricks would still be where they are for over 1500 years. More likely, they are Armenian, from mere 100 years ago or so.) What happened with these Churches was that after the 1915-20 Armenian-Mulsim wars, these villages got consolidated, a lot of Armenians moved together in Stepanakert, while the Azeris there moved closer to their own majority to avoid mutual slaughter.
If you ask me, nothing that happened over 150 years ago should matter to the lives of people living today. Regardless of whether Karabak proper was Azeri or not, it has been Armenian for multiple generations. So let it be independent. But at the same time, the same dignity need to be granted to the people who lived in their adjacent districts. No family’s ancestral home should be occupied as a buffer zone.
Unfortunately, neither side will comprimise, and a second stage of the war will happen. And my other point that I have been driving here is that it is mistaken of Armenians to think that Stage 2 is going to be just a repeat of Stage 1. It will be a totally differnt beast. We may lose again, or may be not. What is for sure, it will a totally different ball game.
kerim,
You are trying hard to make the point that -to begin with now-the muslim and chritian …
First of all change that to read Moussavatist-Armenian!!!
For that is what it was….begining 1905 Tatar-Armenian skirmishes,rather tatars azeris Mousavatists going on a rampage agaisnt the Armenians there.
Then pick it up from there….
Karim Khan,
All your messages ended up with 2-nd stage war!! a typical Turkish empty threat like your corrupted Sultan!! I wonder how much you get paid, for dictating the oil man messages here!! Read below article before preparing, for 2-nd stage war with Artsakhi army!!
Iran’s homemade destroyer: Tehran launches 1400-ton battleship
@ GB, don’t flatter yourself … No one paying is anything to anyone to convince you of anything. Aliyev could not care less about what you or I believe. It is just a friendly (or I guess unfriendly) conversation. Just relax.
@Gaytzag, I personally find it repulsive to my own intellectual integrity to even assume that my side at a war was completely free of atrocity or guitl. In war, a lot of bad things happen. People like you on the other hand find it apparently very easy to think that your side was 100% the angels, and the other side devil. I find such simple-minded black-and-white worldview utterly repulsive, regardless of whether one is Armenian, Azeri, or Bulgarian.
Kerim,
You still try to evade the issue of (your) making it believe that the animosity is /was between Muslim and christian population….
Not true .It was and is between azeri-Musavatist and the Armenians…
indeed, armenians side was then led by the then ARF…and why not.
So one cannot generalize the war then and recent one as you wish to paint!!!
Karim Khan,
You already open you hand, that you are part of Sultan’s circle!! I have never mention Aliyev’s name here!! Are you looking for a 2-nd stage mental help from Artsakhi Armenians?? May be your Kurdish leader is smarter than you are…at least he knows how to fool Axeri people and rob billions with his Mehriban, and leave poor Axeris with empty high rise buildings in Baku!! |
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Here's your daily update on the Crane ownership situation, which apparently is being held up by the American League move.
There are clearly two camps: those who think the hold-up is about realignment, and those who think it's about character. Let's see who falls where:
Realignment:
Jayson Stark
Yahoo's Jeff Passan
FSH's David Dalati
Jon Paul Morosi
Fox Sports Arizona's Jack Magruder
Ken Rosenthal
Character
Richard Justice
Maury Brown
Almost every national writer has placed the hold-up on the Astros moving to the American League. The two holdouts are Richard Justice and Maury Brown. Both have been doing their thing for a long time, and their sources shouldn't be discounted, especially given Justice's prominence in the Houston media. Media agreeing on something doesn't mean it's true, but there's clearly a dominance of opinion in this one.
17 comments:
Justice isn't even elevated enough to be discounted. It is clear from his tone, and his continuous regurgitation of virtually identical columns and blogs that he has issues with Crane. Way beyond what an objective "reporter" should.
Crane probably doesn't give Richard the time of day and with Richard, that is ample reason to take a negative stand towards Crane. Consider the probability that Ryan is most likely in the camp feeding Richard, and sucking up to anyone of Ryan's stature is what Richard craves. Also, add into the fact that Richard has already told his readers how he favors the move to the AL and it is easy to see why Richard is where he is on this issue.
So, overall, it is real balanced: a bunch of national reporters versus Richard Justice, and this Brown cat and his blog. I wonder where the truth lies?
Crane is not going to miss out on a chance to own Astros because he is against realignment. He has probably already told the owners he would move the team if approved. So I do not believe that is the hold up. Crane is not so honorable that he would hold his ground and back off the deal because of that. I also do not believe the charcter issue is the problem. The owners can make Crane dance like a puppet on a string when the time comes to keep him in line. The owners are not so honorable either. I believe they are in no hurry to approve and are going to deal with problems with Mets and Dodgers first and then come back to Crane. It would seem that 1 owner would leak to some reporter what the holdup is. Pretty poor investigative reporting here. Justice is an amateur and i can not see him being right on this. The owners already knew Cranes character issues some time ago. I believe he will be approved and the Astros will move to American league.
The list is actually a little more balanced. Ken Rosenthal, in his most recent notes on Saturday, mentioned the AL West move but said the real hold-up is about MLB owners having questions about Crane's character.
This site seems to have attracted a Crane apologist (see 12:43 PM comment and a lot of others), but if anything, Richard Justice and the Chronicle have been VERY fair to Crane. Most other media outlets would have been trumpeting their prior news coverage of Crane's problems, but the Chronicle essentially buried all of the bad news until three months after the Crane deal was announced.
Hell, for months Richard Justice was predicting a "29-0" approval of Crane, so the idea that Justice has a vendetta against Crane is just stupid. I tend to think the delay is about realignment, but no one is closer to the situation than Justice, and Maury Brown actually covers this stuff on a day to day basis.
I'm no Crane apologist, but to state Justice has been very fair is laughable. A balanced approach would have certainly emphasized, or at least pointed out that these things were known about Crane for a long time, way before MLB allowed Drayton to negotiate with him. A balanced approach would have put his "misdeeds" into context, both in relation to other MLB owners, and within the context of large corporations. A balanced approach would have never brought up the BS about his kids. A balanced approach wouldn't have let the task on setting the record straight on that account to another reporter. A balanced approach wouldn't portray Crane defending himself aginst child abuse charges as an act that will "just make Bud mad defending himself." Sheesh. A balanced approach would ask why the move to the AL is a condition at all, and questioning why the fan base is asked to remedy MLB's problems. Sure, Justice has been real fair. Wake up.
Btw, Justice reporting about a 29-0 vote isnt a sign that there is no vendetta, it's a sign tht he is a lazy reporter who is often wrong, but will soon say the opposite.
Justice is a "columnist," not a reporter, and his columns/blogs on this subject have reflected that: they are largely, if not entirely, speculation and opinion, with very little actual reporting or sourcing done.
I've not read much other stuff by Maury Brown but he really seems to dislike Crane...
Personally, if Crane is planning to cave, and allow MLB to move the Astros to the AL, I will despise him for that. I would rather Drayton keep the Astros until he can sell them to someone with the balls to stand up to Selig and his cohorts.
Justice did point out that Crane's skeletons were known to MLB, which is why, for THREE MONTHS, he predicted a "29-0 approval."
Justice never got into Crane's personal life or divorce at all; that was the Houston Press and then Maury Brown/Forbes.
I don't know how Justice was supposed to put Crane's misdeeds or alleged misdeeds "into context" in relation to other owners or businesses. Obviously, MLB owners aren't a bunch of Eagle Scouts, but I'm not aware of anyone in MLB ownership who has as long of a list of skeletons as Crane seems to have. If you have examples, I'd like to see them.
Also, as both Justice and Brown have reported, MLB didn't want McLane to announce the deal with Crane, but McLane did so anyway. It's not like MLB pulled the rug out from under them. McLane tried to jam the deal down MLB's throat, and MLB said "not so fast."
So, once Crane agrees, or McLane beats him to the punch, will those with Justice blinders still feel he was being fair the whole time?
It will conclusively prove that Crane's personal indiscretions were never important, just something lazy reporters, doing the bidding of MLB, could use to fill their space. Meanwhile, the franchise got extorted, with nary a whimper from the Houston press.
Finding out if other owners have similar skeletons is what reporters do, in an effort to determine if they are being led by their sources.
At the end of this tale, the Astros will move, Crane will be approved and his issues will be proved meaningless, Justice won't write an article how the franchise was extorted, some people will find no fault in the press at all in this matter, and we the fans will get to watch the Astros play the freakin mariners at midnight.
Maybe years later, a reporter will get off their butt, and write a story how a city, both the fans and the media, let their franchise be reamed over without any fight at all. Of course, that reporter will probably be from another city.
Again, you sound a little delusional here. The A.L. move has been discussed multiple times in the Chronicle. As for the other owners' skeletons, first you claimed Crane is no different than a lot of other owners, but now you have no examples and want the media to go digging. It takes 5 seconds on Google to find Crane's skeletons, which date back to the '90s. If you feel other owners are the same, go spend 10 minutes with Google and bring us some examples.
Personally, I don't even care about Crane's past. The issue people should be SCREAMING about is the debt. Crane's deal for the Astros apparently includes almost $300 million in loans. Good luck building a winner with bad attendance, bad TV ratings, and $300 million in debt service.
A.L., N.L. -- it won't matter. The debt in this deal is a killer. THAT's the real ignored story here.
I have never said Crane is like other owners, just seems like if that is the definitive reason, a rational person and a professional reporter would want to know if he is indeed unique. Saying that I should do the research is hardly a counter to my claim that it should be part of the basic reporting.
The AL move is always portrayed in the chron as near the bottom of the list. If he agrees, and is subsequently approved, a non-delusional mind can easily conclude that the move was the ONLY determinative reason, with the rest being crap thrown out for divert people's attention. People probably like yourself who will accept anything, regardless of how much sense it makes, and then likely claim it was reported correctly all along.
Debt being a bigger issue than a franchise being extorted and basically crippled to fulfill an agenda of MLB, or most likely a subset of MLB? Sure thing. That should be the lead story. I can only assume you aren't an Astros fan or enjoy sterile concepts over matters of deceit and power.
"Saying that I should do the research is hardly a counter to my claim that it should be part of the basic reporting."
-- How do you know it HASN'T been part of the reporting? "Plane lands safely" is rarely a headline. When reporters find dirt, they report it. When they don't, it's not a headline.
"Debt being a bigger issue than a franchise being extorted and basically crippled to fulfill an agenda of MLB, or most likely a subset of MLB?"
-- If you think moving to the A.L. will "cripple" the Astros more than the $300 million in debt, you're nuts.
Sure, if you say so. The creditors must be morons to knowingly lend to an entity that obviously will have difficulty servicing it. I think I'll take their judgement over yours.
If your average person is wondering if the plane landed safely, then a reporter should convey that fact. I seriously doubt any Justice or Brown realize there was ever a plane in the air.
Finally, you seem to continuously ignore my core complaint: why is the move a condition at all? It's akin to a boss making up dozens of reasons to deny a lady a promotion, but if she sleeps with him, those reasons are quickly forgotten. You sound like someone who can ignore the core misdeed, and focus on some irrelevant factor like her 401K portfolio.
Are you Maury Brown? Your sensibilities, and inability to recognize the forrest for the trees is eerily similar.
Richard Justice is a columnist. It's his job to provide an opinion based on the facts. And the facts, which appear to be undisputed, is that Crane is a prick.
And the reasons that Crane's skeletons are important is because of all of the skeletons of other owners. The Rangers ended up in bankruptcy because Tom Hicks leveraged the team to the hilt. The Dodgers are in bankruptcy partly for that same reason, partly because Frank McCourt never had the money, and partly because he's going through a nasty, nasty, nasty divorce that has left the team rudderless, and which is essentially being run by MLB.
The Padres are still trying to recover from John Moores going through a nasty, nasty divorce which forced the team to be sold to a group that it is having trouble with financing. And speaking of trouble with financing, there's the Mets which are caught up in the Bernie Madoff dealings.
In short, this could all be a major issue to the other owners/MLB/Bud Selig because they've been bitten too many times in recent years and don't want a franchise sold to a guy who has a history of nasty, contentious divorces and who is having to enter into a heavily debt-ridden deal in order to buy this team.
Now I don't know what Anonymous's real problem with Richard Justice is, but Anon is related to/really Drayton McLane or Jim Crane, he's got no real clue as to what's actually going on with this deal. But I'm pretty sure that Justice's contacts with MLB/Astros are better and more informed than Anon's. And unlike the rest of the national guys who cover the game of baseball, Maury Brown covers the business of baseball, so I'm more willing to listen to him on this deal than some of the national guys, whereas if it dealt with managers, or trades, or free agent signings, I'd be more willing to listen to the other guys than I would Brown.
And here's another thing, Anon. If Justice is getting info from Nolan Ryan, then good for him. Because here's the deal. Ryan is an owner. Ryan is one of the guys who has a vote. And since Ryan dealt with Crane last year during the Rangers thing, I'm sure Ryan has a bit of sway with the other owners. So maybe that's a good thing.
By the way, have you ever considered that the owners just don't trust Crane. After all, Drayton sold him the team three years ago, and he backed out of the deal after the press conference was called to announce the deal. So maybe they just don't want to deal with a guy who's known as a bit of a lying scumbag.
And skeletons, or no skeletons, good financing or no good financing, MLB doesn't have to approve him. It's like buying into a co-op, if they don't want to sell to you, they don't have to approve you if they don't want to approve you.
Wow, another one who ignores the core issue.
Sure, if he never gets approved, I will admit that skeletons may have been the issue as we will never know. We will probably be left with the same data we have now, with reports it was character and reports it was the move. However, if he agrees to move, and magically gets approved, with all his supposed baggage, I assume you would admit that most of what you just wrote is complete BS. If you are honest.
Whether you believe Justice is a low life tool like me, or you respect him like a few around here, it is irrelevant to the fact that he has never tackled the core issue, and if you believe he is getting his info from Ryan, and there is nothing wrong with that, then you are a fool. Like an incompetent cop solely pursuing a lead given to him by someone with an obvious stake in misleading him.
Why on earth would I be associated with McClane? That makes zero sense. Use your head. Think, who has what incentive to put forth what argument?
I know little about Crane, as opposed to you that knows conclusively I guess, that he is a lying scumbag. You know him personally, or just an avid reader?
I am simply an Astros fan who is quite pissed that the franchise is getting screwed with the complicity of a lazy local press, and most likely one of two possible individuals who would have to agree to the move. Under the effects of extortion, of course.
I have no problem if the owners hate him, and don't want to approve him. I have big problems if his approval is conditioned on a move to the AL.
"The creditors must be morons to knowingly lend to an entity that obviously will have difficulty servicing it. I think I'll take their judgement over yours."
-- The bankers don't care if the Astros win 100 games or lose 100 games; they just want to get paid. I never said an MLB team couldn't be profitable while losing; everyone knows the opposite is true. My point is that it's hard to be profitable *and* rebuild at the same time, and with 40-plus partners, I'm sure Crane's partners are expecting to get paid. This isn't Mark Cuban using 20% of his net worth to buy a team; this is 40 people leveraged to the hilt.
But anyway, according to your logic, I guess these brilliant bankers are morons if they allow Crane to borrow $300 million while switching to the A.L., since you claim the switch would "cripple" the team more than the debt.
"Finally, you seem to continuously ignore my core complaint: why is the move a condition at all?"
-- It's not clear that it's a condition. Some say it is, and others say it's simply a request. Both sides of this have been covered in the media, both in Houston and nationally. You talk like this is some big secret that only gets discussed on dark corners of the internet. I've read dozens of stories on this. Maybe not as many as there'd be if a N.Y. or L.A. team was involved, but that's what happens in a one-paper (sorry, John R.) town like Houston.
"However, if he agrees to move, and magically gets approved, with all his supposed baggage, I assume you would admit that most of what you just wrote is complete BS. If you are honest."
-- Here's a news flash: Two things can be true at once. It's possible Crane will agree to move and it's possible he'll be approved as Astros owner, but the two aren't necessarily codependent. Obviously, MLB wants the Astros in the A.L., but why would they drag Crane through the mud just for the hell of it? It's one thing for MLB to pressure Crane behind the scenes, or to pressure Crane publicly about other aspects of the deal (too much debt, too many partners, etc.). But what purpose does it serve MLB to drag Jim Crane through the mud if MLB ultimately plans to approve him? It makes no sense whatsoever.
The bankers may well be reducing the amount they will loan. That was reported recently. No doubt that a move to the AL would reduce the value of the franchise, and Crane's ability to service the debt. So, I don't think the bankers are stupid, they are acutely aware of the effect the move would have on the franchise value.
Condition. Request. Are you Bill Clinton? "Jim, this is just a request, but should you refuse to grant our request, we will withhold approval."
I don't know why it it is so hard to understand. If he agrees to move, and is subsequently approved, one can easily conclude that the character stuff was not determinitive, and that the move was the sole condition all along. Maybe you can understand if it presented this way: "I thought Crane was a prick, and that was preventing his approval. Has anything changed? Why doesn't him being a prick matter any more?"
Why would MLB drag Crane through the mud if they eventually intend to approve him? First, I maintain they don't either intend, or not intend to approve him. It depends on his agreeing to move. Second, if they were waiting out Crane for four months over approval, without having given a public justification no matter how flimsy, then even a lazy reporter (Oh, sorry. columnist) such as Justice might wonder what is taking so long. They had to provide something for public consumption.
I also don't view MLB as some monolithic entity. I suspect there are many owners who have no issue approving Crane right now, warts and all. AL or no AL. However, there are others who see this as a golden opportunity to achieve realignment or weaken a regional competitor. They are using the leverage while they have it. Doesn't take many to thwart it. Doesn't it take 80% approval?
@ Anonymous (9:26 a.m.) -- You seem to be confusing both speculation and fact, and cause and effect.
As I tried to explain in my last comment (#14), two things can be true at once. Even if Crane gets approved, that doesn't mean the character issues were never important. As I said, MLB could pressure Crane behind the scenes if it wants realignment or pressure him publicly because of other issues (the high debt, the huge amount of partners/investors, etc.). But why would MLB intentionally wound/weaken an incoming owner? It doesn't make any sense.
Also, where did you see reports that the loans to Crane might be reduced? I haven't seen that anywhere.
My last comment seems to have disappeared. Strange. |
International transactions - Schedule 25A
This guide will help you decide whether you are required to lodge Schedule 25A and if so, will help you complete the necessary information.
Why use this guide?
Use this guide to:
Individuals are not required to complete Schedule 25A.
When we refer to 'you' in this guide we are referring to the entity required to complete the tax return or Schedule 25A.
Note:
This guide does not take into account the effect of:
which take effect from 1 July 2010.
Determine if Schedule 25A is required
A downloadable flowchart has been developed to help you determine if Schedule 25A is required (PDF, 132KB).
Section A of Schedule 25A refers to related-party international dealings.
Answer these three questions:
If you have answered No to question 1, 2 and 3 then you are not required to complete section A of Schedule 25A, however you may still be required to answer section B.
If you have answered Yes to any question regarding international related parties then you are required to answer further questions in Schedule 25A.
If you have engaged in transactions with international related parties then you may need to complete section A of Schedule 25A.
Section A of Schedule 25A considers four categories of transactions and dealings - tangible property, intangible property, services and other transactions.
A transaction is considered to have occurred if you have supplied or acquired any of the items listed above.
There need not be any consideration passing between the parties for a transaction to qualify for the schedule. If a supply or acquisition has occurred it should be treated as such.
If you answered No to having dealings with international related parties then.
Determine here the aggregate amount of transactions or dealings with international related parties.
This includes the total value of all dealings, whether on revenue or capital account, and includes the balance of any loans or borrowings outstanding with international related parties.
If the aggregate amount of the dealings or transactions is greater than $1 million you are required to complete section A..
If you answered No to having dealings with international related parties greater then $1 million.
Section B of Schedule 25A refers to foreign investment entities and income
If you have an overseas branch or a direct or indirect interest in a foreign trust, foreign company, controlled foreign entity, transferor trust, foreign investment fund or foreign life policy then you are required to complete section B of Schedule 25A. There is no minimum monetary threshold.
Not all questions on section B are compulsory.
These prima facie rules must be balanced with the fact that you have correctly answered the appropriate questions on your tax return. If you are required to complete Schedule 25A based on the questions in this guide you should indicate this on your return and complete the attribution income labels where appropriate..
The aggregate amount of the dealings is the total amount of all dealings, whether on revenue or capital account, and includes the balance of any loans or borrowings outstanding with international related parties.
You should attempt to answer all items. There may be items that don't apply to your particular circumstances. If an item or part of an item does not apply, leave it blank.
Record at this item your three main business activities with international related parties by total dollar value (excluding loans).
For each of the three main business activities you must:
Refer to:
You are not expected to conduct a detailed financial analysis to answer this question - a reasonable estimate is sufficient though more detail is required for the following questions. If you had fewer than three business activities or any of those dealings in fewer than three locations, list only those that apply.
In the first column at A, F and K list the appropriate industry codes that describe the three main business activities giving rise to, or underlying, the dealings carried out with international related parties. List these codes in descending order of total dollar value.
In the second column at B, G and L provide the value of the activities with international related parties for each of the industry codes. The value of the activities is the total dollar value for all locations grouped against each industry code (excluding loans).
List the foreign location code in descending order of dollar value. This should be recorded at labels C, D, E, H, I, J, M, N and O.
Further instructions and examples:
This item requires you to record and group the purchases and sales or expenditure and revenue of related-party international dealings.
There are two columns on the schedule that represent inflows and outflows:
Column A - purchases/expenditure (outflows)
Column B - sales/revenue (inflows)
The item requires you to categorise the outflows and inflows into the following classifications.
Item 2a - tangible property
Labels A and B - stock in trade and raw materials
Labels C and D - all other tangible property
Item 2b - royalties, rent and intangible property
Labels E and F - royalties
Labels G and H - rent other than royalties
Labels I and J - all other intangible property
Item 2c - services
Labels K and L - management, financial, administrative, marketing, training
Labels M and N - technical, construction
Labels O and P - research and development
Labels Q and R - other
Item 2d - other
Labels A and B - interest, discounts
Labels C and D - insurance
Labels E and F - all other payments, expenses, sales and revenue not included elsewhere.
Item 2e - loans - interest bearing
This part of item 2 is concerned with identifying the gross amounts of loans and advances between international related parties for which an interest component is being charged.
The terms 'loans' and 'advances' are intended to be applied broadly in accordance with commercial and accounting practices (a rigorous application of the debt-equity test is not necessary).
Where you have borrowed amounts or received advances from international related parties, add all the opening balances of these borrowed amounts and advances and write the sum at G. Add all the closing balances for these borrowed amounts and advances and enter this amount at H.
Where you have lent or advanced amounts to international related parties, add the opening balances of these lent or advanced amounts and enter the total at I. Add the closing balances of the lent or advanced amounts and enter the total at J.
Example of item 2e
Item 2f - loans - interest free
This part of item 2 is concerned with identifying the gross amounts of loans and advances between international related parties for which no interest component is being charged.
The terms 'loans' and 'advances' are intended to be applied broadly, and to include quasi-equity loans in which no amount of interest was paid or accrued during the year. The terms are not intended to include trade debtors and creditors that fall within ordinary commercial dealings.
However, where trade debtors or creditors that are international related parties are allowed or given terms significantly more generous than those allowed to, or given by, comparable arm's length parties, those trade debts or credits may constitute interest-free loans or advances. In completing this item, consider the terms of trade that are arm's length in your own particular circumstances.
Where you have borrowed amounts or received advances from international related parties, add all the opening balances of these borrowed amounts and advances and write the sum at K. Add all the closing balances for these borrowed amounts and advances and enter this amount at L.
Where you have lent or advanced amounts to international related parties, add the opening balances of these lent or advanced amounts and enter that total at M. Add the closing balances of the lent or advanced amounts and enter the total at N.
The item seeks to clarify whether any dealings with international parties involved non-monetary consideration or no consideration.
Non-monetary consideration
Has any non-monetary consideration been received or given in any dealings with international related parties? Examples could be services, transferring property or any other similar dealings. It may also be a barter, swap, bonus or discount.
At 3a enter Y or N at label B.
Example of item 3a
No consideration
Has there been any provision of services, transfer of assets or any similar dealings with any related international related parties for which you received or paid no consideration?
At 3b enter Y or N at label C.
Example of item 3b
The Australian Taxation Office (ATO) advocates. The arm's length principle involves comparing what a business has done and what a truly independent party would have done in the same or similar circumstances.
Item 4 requires estimates of the percentages of the total dollar value of the related-party international dealings (reported at 2a to 2d only) for which you have written documentation to support step 1 and step 2 for item 4a and step 3 for item 4b.
Note: documentation is only one factor in determining whether to commence an audit. item 4a and 4b, because the business did not maintain contemporaneous documentation.
Transfer pricing - the four-step process
The selection of the most appropriate arm's length pricing methods for your related-party international dealings is described in step 2 of Taxation Ruling TR 98/11 - Income tax: documentation and practical issues associated with setting and reviewing transfer pricing in international dealings.
We recommend you maintain documented records that support your international dealings in determining that the arm's length principle has been applied.
The type of documentation required in international dealings is discussed below and described in step 1 of Taxation Ruling TR 98/11- Income tax: documentation and practical issues associated with setting and reviewing transfer pricing in international dealings.
Documentation should take the form of a file maintained with details such as:
The file should also contain specific documentation to support the transfer pricing methodology selected and indicate that it reflects an arm's length approach. Specific documentation could include price lists, budgets, studies, plans and projections, correspondence, working papers and agreements with related parties that reflect how you set and recorded prices.
At 4a enter the approximate percentage of your dealings (reported in item 2a to 2d) with international related parties for which you hold written pricing documentation. Enter the relevant code from the table below at F.
The application of the most appropriate arm's length pricing methods to those dealings is described in step 3 of Taxation Ruling TR 98/11.
Added to the documentation file should be records on what action has been taken to confirm and test that the price you have set and recorded reflects an arm's length outcome, for example, doing a benchmark study.
Further examples could include:
At 4b enter the approximate percentage of your dealings (reported in item 2a to 2d) with international related parties for which you have supported the arm's length outcome with pricing tests, industry comparisons and other benchmark studies. Enter the relevant code from the table below at G.
Note: total dollar value of related-party dealings should not be netted off.
Percentage
Code
0%
1
1% to less than 25%
2
25% to less than 50%
3
50% to less than 75%
4
75% to less than 100%
5
100%
6
For further information on this topic refer to:
Schedule 25A instructions 2010
NAT 2639-6.2010
International transfer pricing: applying the arm's length principle
NAT 2726-04.2005
International transfer pricing: introduction to concepts and risk assessment
NAT 2725-04.2005
International transfer pricing: a simplified approach to documentation and risk assessment for small to medium businesses
NAT 12032-03.2005
From your total dealings identified in items 2a to 2d, list the four principal methods that you used in establishing or reviewing the appropriate arm's length pricing or consideration with international related parties that are revenue in nature.
List only those methods used in column A at labels H, J, L, and N in descending order of total dollar value. If you did not use any of these methods leave item 5 blank.
For a brief summary select the relevant method.
Pricing method
Comparable uncontrolled price (CUP) method
Resale price method
Cost-plus method
Profit split method
Transactional net margin method
Marginal costing
Cost-contribution arrangement
7
Apportionment of costs
8
Apportionment of income
9
Fixed percentage mark-up applied to costs
10
Fixed percentage of resale price
11
Other arm's length methods
12
These methods are explained in detail in Taxation Ruling TR 97/20 - Income tax: arm's length transfer pricing methodologies for international dealings, and Taxation Ruling TR 1999/1 - Income tax: international transfer pricing for intra-group services. It is recommended that you read these rulings before completing item 5.
In column B select what percentage represents the total dollar value of your dealings (items 2a to 2d) to which you applied that method. Use the table below to reflect the correct percentage code. Use the labels I, K, M, O for your answer.
Note: total dollar value of related-party dealings should not have income and expenses netted off.
This item is concerned with any non-revenue dealings that have occurred between you and an international related party. These dealings are those that you would have included at items 2a to 2d, but not those which concern trading stock in the ordinary course of business.
Item 6a
During the income year, did you have any related-party international dealings of a non-revenue (capital) nature referred to in items 2a to 2d in which:
The words acquired, capital gains tax event, CGT event, disposal and asset are used in this item within the context of Part 3-1 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (ITAA 1997). This item does not refer to trading stock held in the ordinary course of business.
This item requires either Y for yes or N for no. If you print N for no at item 6a, disregard items 6b and 6c and go to item 7.
Item 6b
Where you have acquired capital assets from, or have disposed of capital assets to international related parties, use the correct pricing method code to indicate the four principal methods you used for pricing those acquisitions or disposals.
Record the methods you used by placing the appropriate codes at label Q in descending order of total dollar value, starting at the left hand side.
Item 6c
This item requires you to identify the percentage of your related-party international dealings that are capital in nature.
Use the codes in the table below to show the total international related-party acquisitions and disposals of capital assets as a percentage of the total value of related-party international dealings of both a revenue and non-revenue (or capital) nature. Print the code at R.
Total of related-party acquisitions and disposals as a percentage of the total of related-party dealings - items 2a to 2d only
You can estimate the percentage provided the estimate is objectively and rationally determined using, for example, a sampling technique based on accepted statistical methods. Keep your working papers that relate to item 6c.
In this item you are asked to advise whether any non-resident has participated in your capital, management or control in this year.
Print Y for yes or N for no at S.
In this item you are asked to show the number of international related parties with which you had any dealings during the year.
Write the number at label T.
You must complete section B if you have an overseas branch or a direct or indirect interest in a foreign trust, foreign company, controlled foreign entity, transferor trust, foreign investment fund or foreign life policy.
The requirement to complete section B should correspond with the need to answer yes to any of the following:
If section B is required, item 11 and items 13 to 18 (which are all yes and no questions) must all be answered. Leave other items blank if they do not apply.
For the purposes of section B:
If you have an overseas branch or a direct or indirect interest in a foreign trust, foreign company, controlled foreign entity, transferor trust, foreign investment fund or foreign life policy, then you are required to complete section B of Schedule 25A. It does not matter if the aggregate amount of the dealings or transactions is only $1 dollar.
Item 9 asks for details on the number of controlled foreign companies (CFCs) and controlled foreign trusts (CFTs) in which you had either a direct or indirect interest at the start and end of the accounting period.
You need to determine whether the CFCs and CFTs are residents of listed countries, section 404 countries or unlisted countries.
At labels A, B, and C record the total number of CFCs and CFTs at the start of the entity's accounting period under each category of:
At labels D, E, and F record the total number of CFCs and CFTs at the end of the entity's accounting period and list under each category of:
Example of item 9
For further information and guidance on this topic refer to Schedule 25A instructions 2010 NAT 2639-6.2010.
This item deals with attributable income that is assessable under sections 456, 457 or 459A of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 (ITAA 1936) for controlled foreign companies (CFCs) and controlled foreign trusts (CFTs).
There is special relief from double taxation under section 456A of the ITAA 1936 to ensure there is no attribution under section 456 where the CFC or CFT is a resident of a listed country in which foreign tax is payable under an accruals taxation law of that country.
This question draws on the statistical attribution income labels required to be completed in the ITR around attributed foreign income and net foreign income.
Subsection 456(1) of the ITAA 1936
Where a CFC or CFT has attributable income for a statutory accounting period for an attributable taxpayer, the taxpayer's attribution percentage of the attributable income is included in their assessable income of the income year in which the end of the statutory accounting period occurs.
Enter at G, H, I, attributable income that was included in your assessable income against the requested groups.
Enter the combined total at J.
Example of attributable income
Section 457 of the ITAA 1936
Where a CFC or CFT ceases to be resident in an unlisted country and becomes resident of a listed country or Australia, then the attributable taxpayer's assessable income of the income year in which the residence-change occurs is calculated using the formula:
attribution percent x adjusted distributable profits
Enter at K the amount calculated in accordance with the above formula.
Section 459A of the ITAA 1936
This is an integrity measure to ensure that the attribution of income under any of sections 456 to 459 will not be avoided through the use of interposed Australian trusts or Australian partnerships in conjunction with a CFC or CFT.
The amount is calculated using the formula:
Attribution percentage x interest/entitlement x section 456 to 459A amount
Where an amount is included in assessable income because an attributable taxpayer has an interest in a CFT, the amount attributed may have already been liable to Australian tax. There are special rules to prevent this double taxation. Refer to Division 9 of Part X of the ITAA 1936 for more information.
Enter at N the amounts of attributable income calculated under section 459A.
Non-assessable non-exempt income is not taken into account in working out your taxable income for an income year.
Neither is it taken into account in working out your tax loss for an income year or in working out how much of a prior year tax loss is deductible in an income year.
Some expenses relating to the derivation of some non-assessable non-exempt income are deductible.
Report foreign non-assessable non-exempt income under sections 23AH, 23AI, 23AJ, and 23AK of the ITAA 1936 at Item 11. If there is no non-assessable non-exempt income for some sections, leave those labels blank.
Section 23AH of the ITAA 1936
If you, as an Australian resident company, have a permanent establishment in a listed or unlisted country, section 23AH may treat that active foreign branch income earned through the permanent establishment as non-assessable non-exempt.
An Australian resident company includes any foreign owned company incorporated in Australia.
In addition, under subsections 23AH(3) and (4) of the ITAA 1936, any foreign capital gains and losses are disregarded.
If you have a capital gain or loss from a capital gains tax event involving an asset:
then the gains and losses are disregarded.
There are some important exceptions to these prima facie rules:
Enter at O and P the amount of foreign non-assessable non-exempt income under section 23AH of the ITAA 1936 for listed countries and unlisted countries.
For more information refer to Foreign income return form guide.
Section 23AI of the ITAA 1936
If you, as an attributable taxpayer have been paid a dividend out of a controlled foreign company's (CFC) income or profits that have been previously subject to tax on attribution, then section 23AI of the ITAA 1936 may treat the dividend as non-assessable non-exempt income. Therefore double taxation is avoided.
For a dividend to be treated as non-assessable non-exempt under section 23AI of the ITAA 1936, several requirements must be satisfied:
Corresponding exemptions are available for:
Enter at Q, R, and S the amounts paid out of attributed CFC income from listed countries, section 404 countries, and unlisted countries.
Section 23AJ of the ITAA 1936
If you:
then you may be entitled to receive tax concessions under section 23AJ of the ITAA 1936.
Certain non-portfolio dividends from foreign countries are not assessable. A non-portfolio dividend paid to a resident company by a non-resident company is non-assessable non-exempt income under section 23AJ of the ITAA 1936. It does not matter which foreign country the company paying the dividend is resident in.
A non-portfolio dividend is defined in section 317 of the ITAA 1936 as a dividend which is paid to a company that has a voting interest amounting to at least 10% of the voting power of the company paying the dividend.
Only a company can qualify for the section 23AJ exemption. The exemption does not apply if the resident receives the dividend in the capacity of a trustee or partner. The exemption is not available to individuals.
Section 23AJ of the ITAA 1936 does not apply to a dividend to the extent that the dividend is non-assessable non-exempt income under section 23AI or section 23AK. Dividends exempt under section 23AJ are not treated as attributable income and are also excluded from the active income test.
Enter at T, U and V the amounts of non-portfolio foreign dividends you have received from listed countries, section 404 countries and unlisted countries.
Section 23AK of the ITAA 1936
If you, as an attributable taxpayer have been paid a dividend out of a foreign investment fund's income or profits that have been previously subject to tax on attribution, then section 23AK of the ITAA 1936 may treat the dividend as non-assessable non-exempt income.
To ensure that the income is not subject to double tax, once under the foreign investment fund rules and again when a distribution is made from that income, section 23AK of the ITAA 1936 provides that a distribution received from a foreign investment fund will be non-assessable and non-exempt in your hands to the extent that it has been paid from previously attributed income.
For a dividend to be treated as non-assessable non-exempt under section 23AK of the ITAA 1936, several requirements must be satisfied:
Enter at W the amounts paid out of attributed foreign investment fund income.
For more information refer to Foreign investment funds guide for details.
Item 12 deals with any capital gains or loss made by you, an Australian resident company, where certain capital gains tax events happen to interests held in a foreign company.
Under Subdivision 768-G of the ITAA 1997, the extent of the reduction is determined by calculating the percentage of the foreign company's assets that were used in the underlying active business. The Subdivision applies to disposals occurring on or after 1 April 2004.
You need to have held a direct voting percentage of 10% or more in the foreign company for a continuous period of at least 12 months in the two years before the capital gains tax event.
If a capital gain was reduced in accordance with Subdivision 768-G write the amount of the reduction at item 12a in box L.
If a capital loss is reduced in accordance with Subdivision 768-G write the amount of the capital loss that may be used or carried forward at item 12b in box G.
Item 13 asks whether you have made any transfers of accumulated profits, accumulated losses, paid-up capital or other assets or reserves from any controlled foreign company or controlled foreign trust in an unlisted country to a related entity in a listed country during the year of income.
Transfer includes sale, acquisition, gift, deed of assignment, declaration of trust or otherwise, with or without consideration - monetary or non-monetary.
Examples of the type of transfers to include are:
Print either Y for yes or N for no at each of S, T, U, and V.
Item 14 asks whether a transfer of property or services has ever been made or caused to be made to a non-resident trust estate. The item is not restricted to the income year of this tax return.
.
Transfer includes the disposal or provision of property and allowing, conferring, giving, granting, performing or providing services.
Services include any benefit, right, privilege or facility as well as a right or interest in relation to real or personal property.
You must print either Y for yes or N for no at W.
Example for item 14.
Item 15 asks whether you were a beneficiary of a non-resident trust estate at any time during the year of income. You must print either Y for yes or N for no at X.
Item 16 asks whether you had an interest in a non-resident trust estate, or were entitled to acquire an interest in a non-resident trust estate, at any time during the income year. You must print either Y for yes or N for no at Y.
Item 17 asks whether any of the non-resident trust estates for which a yes answer was given at items 14, 15 or 16 is a discretionary trust estate. If you answered yes at W, X or Y, print either Y for yes or N for no at Z. If you answered no at all of W, X and Y, leave Z blank.
Item 18 asks whether you were able to control a non-resident trust estate at any time during the income year.
Print either Y for yes or N for no at A.
This item refers to you having interests in a foreign investment fund or foreign life policy.
If you do, what is the current value of your interests that are exempt under specified sections of Part XI of the ITAA 1936?
The value used should be the most current available at the end of the notional accounting period or else use cost.
If interests exist, the current value at the end of the accounting period needs to be reported from C to U. Show only the principal 10 in descending order of total dollar value. If there were more than 10 exemptions, show the largest 10 based on dollar values. If there were fewer than 10 exemptions, leave the remaining answer blocks blank.
Use the table below to select the interests that qualify for exemptions.
Example of item 19
Exempt under sections of ITAA 1936
Section
Interests
497
Interests in a foreign company principally engaged in eligible company activities
01
503
Interests in a foreign bank
02
504
Interests in a foreign holding company of a foreign bank
03
506
Interests in a foreign life insurance company
04
507A
Interests in a foreign holding company of a foreign life insurance company
05
509
Interests in a foreign general insurance company
06
509A
Interests in a foreign holding company of a foreign general insurance company
07
511
Interests in a foreign company engaged in certain activities connected with real property
08
511A
Interests in a foreign holding company of a foreign real property company
09
513
Interests in certain USA entities
515
Interests of less than $50,000
519B
Exemption for complying superannuation entities, certain assets of life insurance companies and certain fixed trusts
521
Interests that are trading stock
13
523
Interests in a foreign company principally engaged in several of certain activities
14
523A
Interests in a foreign holding company of a foreign mixed activity company
15
525
Interests not exceeding 10% of the value of all foreign investment fund interests
16
527
Certain interests of underwriting members of Lloyd's
17
The primary meaning of 'permanent establishment' is a fixed place of business in Australia or overseas other than a storage or display facility.
The most obvious example would be a branch.
If you have a non-independent agent who contracts on your behalf, you may have a permanent establishment in Australia or overseas through which your business is wholly or partly carried on.
Permanent establishment has a statutory meaning under subsection 6(1) of the ITAA 1936 which includes:
A permanent establishment generally does not include:
Double tax agreements also have their own definition, which may share or extend the statutory meaning.
For the purposes of Schedule 25A, certain items (2a to 2d and 3a to 3b) should be answered on the notional basis that a permanent establishment is a separate but related entity. Any allocation of profits or income and expenditure between the permanent establishment and the taxpayer's other business sites or activities must follow the arm's length principle.
International related parties are persons and permanent establishments who are participants in international dealings that can be subject to Division 13 Part III of the ITAA 1936 or the business profits article or associated enterprises article of a relevant double tax agreement. The term includes:
The concept of central management and control focuses on decisions made at the highest levels in the company. These are the decisions that guide and control the company's business activities.
In most cases central management and control is exercised by the board of directors at board meetings.
In such cases, the company's central management and control is normally in Australia if the majority of the board meetings are held in Australia.
However there are situations where the central management and control of a company is exercised by parties other than the board of directors. In such cases, central management and control is generally located where the high-level investment decisions are made.
Participates in capital usually refers to an equity interest of 10% or greater.
A relationship exists when there is participation by one party in the management, control or capital of another. Participation can include a right of participation, the exercise of which is contingent on an agreed event occurring. This definition also extends to the deemed control of management or capital by either party (not just active participation).
Transactions or dealings may be the provision or receipt of services, or transactions in which money or property has been sent out of Australia, or received in Australia from an overseas source during the income year. The dealings may also include:
Related-party international dealings means international transactions, agreements or arrangements between related parties, or between a permanent establishment and its head office, or between two permanent establishments of the same entity. The term includes all transactions between an Australian resident and international related parties.
If money or property is not actually sent out of Australia or received in Australia, but accounting entries are made that have a similar effect to money or property being transferred, this is also taken to be an international transaction.
For the purposes of Schedule 25A, tangible property includes real and personal property. It also includes all property involved in the process of manufacture, including:
Other tangible property may include:
You should report the gross purchases or expenditure and gross sales or revenue from international related party dealings or transactions from this source.
For the purposes of Schedule 25A, intangible property covers a wide range of property including industrial and intellectual property, such as:
An example of a transaction of this type would be a company in Australia acquiring the Australian rights to use a certain brand name from its overseas parent.
You should report the gross purchases or expenditure and gross sales or revenue from international related party dealings or transactions from this source.
For the purposes of Schedule 25A, services involve gross amounts of purchases or expenditure and sales or revenue from international related party dealings or transactions relating to services.
Services cover any activity of a service oriented nature including:
Other transactions in item 2d of Schedule 25A include dealings or transactions between international related parties not specifically included at other labels.
Report at labels A, B, C, D of item 2d the gross amounts of other transactions.
At labels E, F of item 2d, what you need to report can vary between net cash flows for interest rate swaps and gross amounts for other financial transactions.
This category includes financial type items which are not loans and which are not easily categorised, such as derivative instruments.
Other transactions in this category include:
Loans should be recorded at items 2e and 2f.
For the purposes of Schedule 25A, an aggregate amount involves gross amounts of purchases and sales from international related party dealings or transactions. You cannot offset sales less purchases.
It can be summarised by labels 2a to 2f on Schedule 25A.
The aggregate amount is used to determine the $1 million threshold for Part A.
Transfer pricing case study
Total dollar value is similar to the meaning given to aggregate amount but does not include the value of any loan balances or borrowings.
It can be summarised by labels 2a to 2d on Schedule 25A.
A non-monetary consideration includes providing services, transferring tangible and intangible property or any similar dealings. The dealing may be a barter, swap, bonus or discount, or any type of similar agreement.
Monetary consideration will generally include:
Non-monetary consideration therefore includes any consideration other than those involving the exchange of money or funds.
In particular, debt-for-equity swaps and non-monetary settlements of inter-company loan accounts are taken to be non-monetary consideration.
Example item 3a
Where there is no charge or adjustment allocating income or expenditure between the parties for provision of services, transfer of property, or other transactions listed on Schedule 25A by:
this is regarded as being for nil consideration.
Example item 3b
The arm's length principle means using the transactional or profit results of independent parties as a guide or benchmark in allocating income or expenses in cross-border transactions with related parties.
It requires understanding what you have done in your business and whether or not your actions compare with what independent parties have done, or would have done, in the same or a similar situation.
The process requires judgment calls by:
For more detail on arm's length principle refer to International transfer pricing: applying the arm's length principle (NAT 2726).
Transfer pricing occurs when property has been supplied or acquired under an international agreement.
However there are rules in place to make sure that the parties to the transaction were, or are, dealing with each other at arm's length in relation to the supply or acquisition.
In the absence of transfer pricing rules, taxpayers might seek to shift profits out of Australia to jurisdictions that have lower rates of tax. This could be achieved by pricing transactions between Australian residents and related parties overseas at prices that do not reflect the arm's length price for those transactions.
The arm's length principle is the statutory test for pricing related-party international dealings. The principle is incorporated into the associated enterprise article in each of Australia's double tax agreements.
Taxation rulings TR 97/20, TR 1999/1 and NAT 2726 International transfer pricing: applying the arm's length principle explain the operation and suitability of each of the methods mentioned below for particular circumstances.
It is not possible to identify all the circumstances under which the various methods will produce valid results, and a method's appropriateness for any given transaction must be determined from all the circumstances of the dealing. You should use the method that produces the highest practicable degree of comparability.
There are two main groups called traditional transaction methods and transaction profit methods.
Codes 1 to 3 represent the traditional transaction methods and provide the most reliable measure of an arm's length result. Codes 4 to 5 represent the profit methods and codes 6 to 12 are other methods..
The hyperlinks below provide brief summaries of each method, although the list is not exhaustive. The methods may not be appropriate for determining an arm's length price under all circumstances. Other methods, which are not listed below, might also be appropriate.
Listed below are the arm's length pricing codes and methodologies.
Code 1 - Comparable uncontrolled pricing method
Code 2 - Resale price method
Code 3 - Cost-plus method
Code 4 - Profit split method
Code 5 - Transactional net margin method
Code 6 - Marginal costing
Code 7 - Cost-contribution arrangement
Code 8 - Apportionment of costs
Code 9 - Apportionment of income
Code 10 - Fixed percentage mark-up applied to costs
Code 11 - Fixed percentage of resale price
Code 12 - Other arm's length methods
Code 1 - comparable uncontrolled price method
This.
Code 2 - resale price method
This.
Code 3 - cost-plus method.
When traditional transaction methods cannot be applied then transactional profit methods may be used. These are methods that examine the profits that arise from particular transactions among associated enterprises. Codes 4 and 5 are transactional profit methods that satisfy the arm's length principle.
Code 4 - profit split method
This method determines the appropriate pricing for transactions by:
The split of profit or loss between the parties must be made on an economically valid basis that approximates the division of profits in an agreement made at arm's length.
Code 5 - transactional net margin method
This.
Code 6 - marginal costing method.
Code 7 - cost-contribution arrangement
A cost-contribution arrangement is one where members of a multinational group act in concert for the benefit of each of the participants to:.
Code 8 - apportionment of costs
This pricing method apportions the costs associated with a controlled transaction among the associated enterprises. An answer must be found to all transfer pricing problems. However, cases may arise where neither comparable dealings nor data are available to apply to traditional, or profit-based, methods. In these instances, application of an indirect method such as apportionment of costs on the basis of a formula may be applicable.
Code 9 - apportionment of income
This pricing method apportions the income associated with a controlled transaction among the associated enterprises.
As with code 8, this method may be appropriate where there are neither comparable dealings nor data to apply the traditional, or profit-based, methods to the pricing problem.
Code 10 - fixed percentage mark-up applied to costs 3.
Code 11 - 2.
Code 12 - other arm's length methods
Use code 12 if your arm's length method is not represented by codes 1 to 11.
Contemporaneous documentation
Documentation is contemporaneous if:
The documentation may be in the form of books, records, studies, budgets, plans and projections, analyses, conclusions and other electronic or written materials that record the information.
The initial analysis of your international dealings against the arm's length principle will have been carried out and documented at the time of engaging in the dealings. The review of those international dealings before tax returns are prepared is regarded as prudent business practice.
Where you have not used arm's length consideration in the ordinary course of your related-party international dealings, review prices before preparing the tax return and make any adjustments for taxation purposes. Keep all your documentation in relation to this.
Adequacy of documentation
We do not expect taxpayers to prepare or obtain documents beyond the minimum needed to make a reasonable assessment of whether they have complied with the arm's length principle in setting prices or consideration.
However documentation that is created in the ordinary course of the taxpayer's business and used to establish the prices for international related party dealings - for example, invoices and orders - will not generally be regarded as documentation in relation to the arm's length nature of the dealings. This is because the documents do not produce any evidence or provide any basis for comparison for determining whether prices are established at arm's length.
It is not possible to provide a general checklist of documentation that would be adequate or desirable. We realise that it is necessary to strike an acceptable balance between the need to keep compliance costs to a minimum and our legitimate concern for ensuring the proper amount of Australian tax is paid.
The amount and type of documentation that should be created or obtained over and above that created in the ordinary course of business will depend on the facts and circumstances of each case. The issue is a practical one having regard to what a prudent business person would do in the same circumstances, and taxpayers need to exercise commercial judgment in assessing their own compliance with the arm's length principle.
The pricing methods below may not necessarily provide an arm's length price under all circumstances. The examples below are not exhaustive and the appropriate choice of method must be made on the particular circumstances of the dealings.
Nil consideration.
Cost price refers to the price the seller originally paid for the asset, including ancillary costs such as freight or handling.
Written-down value refers to a pricing method based on either the taxation 'adjustable value' or accounting residual value.
Discounted cash flow is a pricing method where the price of an asset is based on the discounted cash flow at the time of acquisition or disposal.
Director's valuation refers to a pricing method that is based on the directors' opinion of an asset's value, and not on any of the methods listed in codes 1 to 8.
Independent valuation is a pricing method by which a suitably qualified person, acting at arm's length to both the buyer and seller, assesses the value of an asset.
Quoted market price refers to a price quoted on a public listed market such as a public stock exchange or commodities market.
8
'Other methods' means any other pricing method that is not mentioned in item 6.
Listed countries
Under Part 1 of Schedule 10 of the Income Tax Regulations 1936, listed countries are those that are considered to have tax systems closely comparable to Australia's. They include Canada, France, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America.
Unlisted countries
All other countries are unlisted countries.
Section 404 countries
Under Part 2 of Schedule 10 of the Income Tax Regulations 1936, there were a wide range of countries which were classified as limited-exemption listed countries. These are generally included in the category of unlisted countries but are treated as listed countries in one situation. Where the eligible controlled foreign company is a resident of a listed or section 404 country at the end of the eligible period, a dividend paid to it in the eligible period by a company that is also a resident of a listed country or section 404 country is notional exempt income.
These are unlisted countries that are treated as listed countries for the limited purposes of Part X of the ITAA 1936.
Argentina
Iceland
Netherlands
Spain
Austria
India
New Caledonia
Sri Lanka
Bangladesh
Indonesia
Norway
Sweden
Belgium
Iran
Pakistan
Switzerland
Brazil
Ireland
Papua New Guinea
Taiwan
Brunei
Israel
Philippines
Thailand
Bulgaria
Italy
Poland
Tokelau
China(except the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region)
Kenya
Portugal
Tonga
Czech Republic
Kiribati
Romania
Turkey
Denmark
Korea, Republic of
Russian Federation
Tuvalu
Fiji
Luxembourg
Saudi Arabia
Vietnam
Finland
Malaysia
Singapore
Western Samoa
French Polynesia
Malta
Slovak Republic
Zimbabwe
Greece
Mexico
Solomon Islands
Hungary
Myanmar
South Africa
A controlled foreign company is a non-resident company controlled by an Australian entity. Under section 340 of the ITAA 1936 a foreign company is controlled by an Australian entity if one of the three control tests is satisfied:
Strict control test
A foreign company will be treated as a controlled foreign company under the strict control test if a group of five or fewer Australian '1% entities', together with their associates, owns or is entitled to acquire a control interest of at least 50% in the foreign company.
An Australian 1% entity is an Australian entity that, together with its associates, holds an interest of at least 1% in the foreign company.
An Australian entity is an Australian partnership, an Australian trust, or an entity - other than a partnership or trust - that is a Part X Australian resident. A Part X Australian resident is a resident of Australia who is not treated solely as a resident of another country under a double taxation agreement between Australia and that country.
The associate-inclusive control interest of an entity is the sum of interests held by the entity and its associates in the foreign company. Interests that the entity and its associates are entitled to acquire are also taken into account.
Example of strict control test
Assumed controller test
A foreign company is normally treated as a controlled foreign company under the assumed controller test if a single Australian entity owns, or is entitled to acquire, an associate-inclusive control interest of at least 40%. An entity's associate-inclusive control interest in a foreign company is the sum of the interests held in the company by the entity and the associates of the entity. However, a foreign company is not treated as a controlled foreign company under the assumed controller test if the company is controlled by a party or parties unrelated to the single resident or its associates.
Example of assumed control test
De facto control test
A foreign company will be treated as a controlled foreign company under the de facto control test if a group of five or fewer Australian entities, either alone or with associates, effectively controls the foreign company.
Example of de facto control test
If an Australian entity can control the appointment of directors to a foreign company, the Australian entity will generally be taken to have de facto control of that company.
When is control measured?
The statutory accounting period of a controlled foreign company is a period of 12 months ending 30 June, unless the company elects to use another period. The control test is applied at the end of a company's statutory accounting period to check whether income of that company is to be attributed.
It may also be necessary to measure control when a controlled foreign company pays a dividend to another controlled foreign company or to a controlled foreign trust, or when a controlled foreign company changes residence.
A controlled foreign entity includes a:
A partnership is a controlled foreign partnership at a particular time if:
A controlled foreign trust is one that, at a particular time, is not an Australian trust and where:
Generally, an eligible transferor is an Australian entity or a controlled foreign entity that has transferred property or services in certain specified circumstances to a non-resident trust.
Example of an eligible transferor
Entity A, a controlled foreign entity, transfers $10 million for no consideration to a non-resident trust estate (Transferor trust). Entity A is an eligible transferor because of the transfer.
Some taxpayers have a significant shareholding in a foreign company. You are considered an attributable taxpayer if you are an Australian resident and:
For more information on the meaning of an attributable taxpayer refer to the Foreign income return form guide
Attributable income is the amount taxed on an accruals basis under controlled foreign company measures. Only certain types of income are included in attributable income.
There are two key factors that indicate whether an item of income will be attributable income under the controlled foreign company rules. These are:
If the income satisfies both these requirements it will be attributed under the controlled foreign company rules.
For more information on attributable income refer to the Foreign income return form guide.
There are three types of tainted income:
Passive income
Under section 446 of the ITAA 1936, passive income includes certain types of dividend, interest, royalty, annuity and rental income. It also includes gains on the disposal of assets that produce passive income or which are not used solely in carrying on a business.
Tainted sales income
Under section 447 of the ITAA 1936, tainted sales income is income from a controlled foreign company which is gained from the sale of goods purchased from or sold to:
Tainted services income
Under section 448 of the ITAA 1936, tainted services income is income derived from the provision of services by a controlled foreign company to:
Tainted services income also includes income derived from services provided indirectly to Australian residents, subject to certain requirements. Services include any benefit, right or privilege provided under an arrangement for the performance of work or the provision of facilities - for example, performance of technical, managerial or transport work.
For more information on tainted income refer to the Foreign income return form guide.
The active income test seeks to determine whether the amount of tainted income that an active business has derived is small enough to ensure that no mischief will be caused by exempting it from the controlled foreign company rules. The active income test does this by applying a formula to the company's gross income, which compares the company's gross turnover from tainted sources to its turnover from all other sources:
Gross tainted turnover
Gross turnover
The result of this calculation is known as the 'tainted income ratio'.
As long as a controlled foreign company's gross tainted income is less than 5% of its gross turnover from all sources, the active income test will be passed and none of the tainted income will be attributed.
If the company's tainted income ratio is 5% or higher, the active income test is failed and the tainted income may be subject to attribution.
There are also a number of other requirements that must be satisfied before the active income test can be passed. For example, the controlled foreign company must carry on business through a permanent establishment in its country of residence. For further information on these requirements see sections 432 and 433 of the ITAA 1936.
Remember that if a controlled foreign company passes the active income test, the controlled foreign company rules will not apply in most cases.
There are other types of income that can be subject to tax under the controlled foreign company rules irrespective of whether the company passes the active income test. These include income derived under the transferor trust or foreign investment fund rules.
If a controlled foreign company has passed the active income test, it will not generally have any attributable income for that year of income.
Example - active income test example 1
Example - active income test example 2
If a controlled foreign company from an unlisted country has failed the active income test, its attributable income will be income that is adjusted tainted income.
Example - active income test example 3
For more detailed information, including conditions to be met, the application of the formula and examples refer to the Foreign income return form guide.
Normally, amounts derived in a listed country are exempt from accruals taxation. It is assumed that all income derived by a controlled foreign company which is resident in a listed country has been comparably taxed. However, the exemption does not apply for amounts of eligible designated concession income.
An amount is generally treated as designated concession income if it is not comparably taxed in a listed country. In these cases income has either no tax or a reduced amount of tax.
For example, the USA exempts income from certain government bonds from USA tax. Such income falls within the left hand side of the diagram below. If that income is also 'tainted', the controlled foreign company rules would apply to tax that income in Australia. The Income Tax Regulations 1936 contain a list of types of income that have the benefit of 'designated concessions' in the seven listed countries.
The full list of these concessions can be found in Schedule 9 of the Income Tax Regulations 1936. There are only a few specific concessions listed for each of the listed countries which means there are only a limited number of situations in which a controlled foreign company will derive income that is subject to tax under these rules.
Schedule 9 of the Income Tax Regulations 1936 has more information on the different types of eligible designated concession income.
Tainted assets are defined in section 317 of the ITAA 1936 and include amongst other things, shares, financial instruments and assets that are not used solely in carrying on a business.
A non-portfolio dividend is defined in section 317 of the ITAA 1936 as a dividend which is paid to a company which has a 10% or greater voting interest in the company paying the dividend.
Under section 481 of the ITAA 1936 a foreign investment fund is any foreign company or trust which an Australian taxpayer has an interest in. The definition of a foreign investment fund is therefore extremely broad. An interest in a foreign investment fund is:
It also includes an option, convertible note or other instrument that confers an entitlement to acquire such an interest.
An interest in a discretionary trust will not generally be an interest in a foreign investment fund. This is because these types of interests will not normally grant a potential beneficiary any entitlement to corpus or income until such time as the trustee exercises its discretion in the potential beneficiary's favour.
Even if your name does not appear on a share certificate or share register of the foreign company as the legal owner of those shares, you are still considered to have an interest in the foreign investment fund if you have a beneficial interest in that fund.
For more information refer to the Foreign investment funds guide.
Under section 482 of the ITAA 1936 a foreign life insurance policy is a policy which was issued by an entity that is not a resident of Australia. You generally have legal title to a foreign life insurance policy if you have an obligation to pay premiums for that policy.
To keep track of how much of a dividend will be non-assessable and non-exempt, you need to keep attribution accounts for each of your controlled foreign companies or foreign investment funds. The concept is similar to maintaining a franking account.
This Subdivision governs the reduction in capital gains and losses arising from capital gains tax events relating to portfolio investments in active foreign companies.
If:
then the gain or loss is reduced by a percentage that reflects the degree to which the assets of the foreign company were used in an active business.
Example of Subdivision 768-G of ITAA 1997
Capital gains tax events
The concession under Subdivision 768-G of the ITAA 1997 applies to the following capital gains tax events:
A1 - disposal of a capital gains tax asset - section 104-10 of the ITAA 1997
B1 - use and enjoyment before title passes - section 104-15
C2 - cancellation, surrender and similar endings - section 104-25
E1 - creating a trust over a capital gains tax asset - section 104-55
E2 - transferring a capital gains tax asset to a trust - section 104-60
G3 - liquidator declares shares worthless - section 104-145
J1 - company stops being member of wholly owned group after rollover -section 104-175
K4 - capital gains tax asset starts being trading stock - section 104-220
K6 - pre-capital gains tax shares or trust interest - section 104-230
K10 - foreign exchange realisation gain - item 1 of the table in subsection 775-70 (1) and section 104-260
K11 - foreign exchange realisation loss - item 1 of the table in subsection 775-75 (1) and section 104-265.
Section 768-510 of the ITAA 1997 defines active foreign business asset percentage.
The underlying active business that a foreign company has is determined by calculating the value of active foreign business assets held by that company as a percentage of the value of all of its assets.
The valuation may be done by either the market value method or the book value method.
Market value method
The percentage will be calculated under section 768-520 of the ITAA 1997 if:
Book value method
The percentage will be calculated under section 768-525 of the ITAA 1997 if:
If the taxpayer company does not make this valuation, the default rule is that any capital gain will be taxable and any loss non-deductible.
For more information refer to the Foreign income return form guide.
The extent of a reduction is calculated using the underlying active foreign business percentage.
If the percentage is less than 10%, any capital gain is taxable and any loss can be deducted or carried forward.
If the percentage is 90% or more, any capital gain or loss is ignored.
Section 768-540 of the ITAA 1997 determines the active foreign business assets of a foreign company.
An active foreign business asset is:
Assets excluded from this definition include:
A non-resident trust estate is one that meets both of the following conditions during a full year of income:
The residency tests for individuals and companies are used to determine whether a trustee was a resident of Australia.
An entity is entitled to acquire anything that the entity is absolutely or contingently entitled to acquire, whether because of any constituent document of a company, the exercise of any right or option or for any other reason.
Example of entitled to acquire.
If a company issues a shareholder an option to acquire shares, the shareholder is entitled to acquire the shares.
The attribution percentage is the sum of the direct and indirect interests that you, an attributable taxpayer, hold in the controlled foreign company. The interests of associates are not included in this calculation.
Example of attribution percentage
Adjusted distributable profits relates to the amount that would be the controlled foreign company's distributable profits at the time where the company changes residence from an unlisted country to a listed country or changes residence from an unlisted country to Australia.
Refer to section 457 of the ITAA 1936 for more information.
The attribution percentage is the sum of the direct and indirect interests that you, an attributable taxpayer, hold in the controlled foreign company. The interests of associates are not included.
Example:
Formula:
AP
x
Interest/entitlement
Section 456 to 459A amount
Aust Co
50%
$200
Aust Co would be assessable on $100
Refer to Division 9 of Part X of the ITAA 1936 for more information.
Under section 102AAB of the ITAA 1936, discretionary trust estate means a trust estate where the distribution of income or corpus to beneficiaries is made at the discretion of the trustee.
A discretionary beneficiary has no interest in the trust property or income until the trustee exercises its discretion in favour of the beneficiary. A discretionary beneficiary only has the right to be considered when the trustee is exercising this discretion.
Under section 102AAG of the ITAA 1936, for the purposes of the transferor trust provisions, an entity is regarded as controlling a trust estate if:
a. the entity (or its associates) had the power to obtain the beneficial enjoyment of the corpus or income of the trust estate
b. the entity (or its associates) was able to control the application of the corpus or income of the trust estate
c. the entity (or its associates) was capable under a scheme of gaining the enjoyment or control referred to in paragraph (a) or (b)
d. a trustee of the trust estate was accustomed or under an obligation or might reasonably be expected to act in accordance with the directions, instructions or wishes of the entity (or its associates)
e. the entity (or its associates) was able to remove or appoint any of the trustees of the trust estate.
See Part XI of the ITAA 1936.
A notional accounting period is the period used to determine the attributable income of a FIF or a foreign life assurance policy.
Notional accounting period of a foreign life policy
Under section 487 of the ITAA 1936 the notional accounting period of a foreign life policy is each 12 months period ending on 30 June.
If the cash surrender values of your interest in a foreign life policy are available on a day during the same month in each calendar year ('the relevant day'), you can elect that the notional accounting period of the foreign life policy).
Notional accounting period of a foreign investment fund
Under section 486 of the ITAA 1936 the notional accounting period of a foreign investment fund is each period that is a year of income of the taxpayer.
Important: you must return attributable income from the foreign investment fund for the notional accounting period which ends in your income year.
If the period for which a foreign investment fund prepares its accounts is different from your income year, and this period is not more than 12 months, you may elect for the notional accounting period of the foreign investment fund to coincide with the period for which the accounts of the fund are prepared. This election cannot be revoked for as long as you have the foreign investment fund interest (subsections 486(3) and (4)).
Example of notional accounting period
For more information and examples refer to the Foreign investment funds guide.
Under section 483 of the ITAA 1936 an interest in a foreign investment fund that is a foreign company means a share in the company other than an eligible finance share within the meaning of section 327 (Part X of the ITAA 1936), or an option, convertible note, or other instrument that confers an entitlement to acquire such a share.
Where the foreign investment fund is a foreign trust, it is:
A person has an interest in a foreign life policy if the person has the legal title to the policy.
A foreign life policy is a life insurance policy which was issued by an entity that was not a resident of Australia at any time during the year of income.
Amounts are generally only taken into account if they are not taxed in full in Australia or comparably taxed in a listed country.
The controlled foreign company rules make assumptions about whether or not income has been comparably taxed. Seven countries have been identified as having a tax system that is comparable with Australia's. These countries are listed in Part 1 of Schedule 10 of the Income Tax Regulations 1936 and are known as listed countries. It is assumed that all income derived by a controlled foreign company resident in a listed country has been comparably taxed, subject to an important exception: 'eligible designated concession income'. The seven countries are:
It is further assumed that all income derived by a controlled foreign company that is resident in any other country (an 'unlisted country') has not been comparably taxed.
There are a number of provisions in the ITAA 1936 and the ITAA 1997 that treat foreign income received by an Australian resident as either exempt or non-assessable and non-exempt.
Both exempt income and non-assessable non-exempt income are relieved from Australian tax. There are some differences however in the way exempt income and non-assessable non-exempt income are treated. These are outlined below:
Exempt income
This must be offset against losses.
Expenses relating to the earning of exempt income are not allowable deductions.
Non-assessable non-exempt income
There is no need to offset against losses.
Some expenses relating to the derivation of non-assessable non-exempt income are deductible.
Under section 23AH of the ITAA 1936, income earned from a permanent establishment in a foreign country by an Australian resident company may be treated as non-assessable non-exempt. This also includes capital gains and losses from capital gains tax events.
Dividends declared by a controlled foreign company to a resident taxpayer may be non-assessable non-exempt income under section 23AI of the ITAA 1936. This is only to the extent that the dividend is paid from profits which the taxpayer has previously paid tax on under the controlled foreign company rules. Similarly, certain non-portfolio dividends received from a foreign company are generally non-assessable non-exempt income in terms of section 23AJ.
Income which has been previously attributed to an attributable taxpayer under the transferor trust rules may be non-assessable non-exempt income when later received by a beneficiary.
Income distributed by a foreign investment fund or foreign life policy to a resident taxpayer may be non-assessable non-exempt income under section 23AK of the ITAA 1936. This is only to the extent to which you have previously paid tax on that interest under the foreign investment fund rules.
A taxpayer who is a non-resident of Australia for income tax purposes and operates through a permanent establishment in Australia that receives an amount of dividend, interest or royalty income on which withholding tax is payable, has generally met its final tax liability on that income in Australia. Section 128D of the ITAA 1936 provides that those amounts on which withholding tax is payable are exempt from tax and shall not be included in assessable income under subsection 6-5(3) of the ITAA 1997.
However, franked dividends received by a non-resident are non-assessable non-exempt income in accordance with section 128D of the ITAA 1936, notwithstanding that they are not subject to withholding tax.
The controlled foreign company rules are contained in Part X of the ITAA 1936 and are designed to tax Australian resident shareholders who control foreign companies on 'tainted' income earned by the foreign companies.
Australian residents are required to include the tainted income in their assessable income in the same income year that the tainted income was derived by the foreign companies.
Tainted income is income which is mobile and able to be readily diverted to low tax jurisdictions, such as dividends, interest, some royalties and some income from intra-group transactions.
The foreign investment fund rules are contained in Part XI of the ITAA 1936. They are designed to ensure that Australian taxpayers do not enjoy deferral benefits by accumulating income offshore. They compliment the controlled foreign company rules and the transferor trust rules by assessing foreign income accumulated in non-resident companies and trusts which are not subject to those other rules.
The rules have a very broad application and apply to taxpayers who are pursuing genuine investment opportunities offshore, as well as those who are pursuing tax minimisation strategies.
The rules tax Australian investors on any increase in the value of their foreign investments each year. The rules also apply to interests in some foreign life policies held by Australian residents.
Exemptions from the foreign investment fund rules
As the definition of a foreign investment fund is very broad, there are many exemptions that exclude certain taxpayers with a foreign investment fund interest. These taxpayers are not required to include any foreign investment fund income in their assessable income.
There are many exemptions from the foreign investment fund measures and three global exemptions from the rules entirely.
The global exemptions are:
Refer to the Foreign investment funds guide for more details regarding exemptions.
The transferor trust rules are contained in Division 6AAA of the ITAA 1936. They are similar to the controlled foreign company rules and cover the accumulation of income in low tax jurisdictions.
While the controlled foreign company rules apply to interests in foreign companies, the transferor trust rules apply to interests in non-resident trusts. The transferor trust rules are arguably more severe in their application than the controlled foreign company rules. Their relative harshness is the result of a number of distinguishing factors peculiar to trusts, including their high degree of flexibility, historical use of arrangements for avoiding Australian tax, and the practical difficulties in establishing the existence and particulars of trust arrangements, especially blind trust arrangements.
The aim of the transferor trust rules is to attribute income earned by a non-resident trust to an Australian taxpayer. That is, to tax an Australian taxpayer on income earned by such a trust.
Without the transferor trust rules, there would not be an Australian taxpayer who could be assessed on the trust's income. The trustee of the trust would not be an Australian entity and in many cases no beneficiary would be presently entitled to the income of the trust.
The transferor trust rules therefore tax every Australian taxpayer who has transferred property or services to the non-resident trust. Such an entity is known as an 'attributable taxpayer' in relation to the trust.
A foreign company is a company that is not resident in Australia, according to the definition of a 'resident of Australia' in subsection 6(1) of the ITAA 1936 and the residency provisions of any relevant double taxation agreement.
The second requirement in respect of the relevant double taxation agreement does not apply for the purpose of subdivision 768-G of the ITAA 1997.
A trust estate is a foreign trust estate if it:
The attributable taxpayers in relation to a controlled foreign company are taxed under section 457 of the ITAA 1936 on the amount that relates to the period until the change of residence.
If a controlled foreign company changes residence from an unlisted country to Australia, a resident taxpayer who is an attributable taxpayer of the controlled foreign company is taxable on the taxpayer's attribution percentage of the adjusted distributable profits of the controlled foreign company.
The amount of distributable profits that is taxable to a resident taxpayer includes the adjusted tainted income of the controlled foreign company (excluding non-portfolio dividends) less any expenses relating to that adjusted tainted income.
Example of change of residence to Australia
If a controlled foreign company changes residence from an unlisted country to a listed country, a resident attributable taxpayer has to include in its assessable income a share of the adjusted distributable profits of the controlled foreign company.
The amount to be included is worked out in the same way as the amount that arises where a controlled foreign company from an unlisted country becomes a resident of Australia. However, a further adjustment is made to the controlled foreign company's distributable profits. The controlled foreign company is treated as having disposed of all of its tainted assets for their market value at the time it changed residence. Accordingly, the distributable profits also include a net profit arising on the deemed disposal of those assets.
Example of change of residence to a listed country
Summary of items on various tax returns for Schedule 25A
Conditions
Section A
Section B
Aggregate amount greater than 1million
yes
n/a
Aggregate amount less than $1million
no
Complete section A if you answered yes to any of the following:
Complete section B if you answered yes to any of the following: the 2010 business industry codes at A, F and K and the appropriate foreign location codes at C to O.
10900
700,000
NZL
USA
33230
200,000
18990
120,000.
Head office makes a monthly charge of $200,000 to the New Zealand business for the marketing service. For this year, the head office has made 12 such monthly charges.
The company completes item 1 as follows:
2,400,000
An Australian company has several affiliates, which are related parties, in foreign countries. At the start of the financial year the company's balance sheet showed $182,678 owing to the affiliates by the company, and $53,250 owing by the affiliates to the company.
At the end of the financial year, $86,782 was owed to the affiliates by the company, and $245,354 was owed by the affiliates to the company. Item 2e would be completed as follows:
Opening balance
Closing balance
182,678
86,782
53,250
245,354
A taxpayer purchased trading stock for $20 million from an international related party.
If, rather than paying for the trading stock with a funds transfer to the related party's loan account, the decision was made to settle the debt by any of the following:
the appropriate response to this item is Y for yes at B.
However, where individual debts between two parties are aggregated or netted and the net balance settled monetarily, this is not classed as a non-monetary consideration.
As mentioned earlier, for the purposes of Schedule 25A, a permanent establishment is to be treated as a separate party from its head office or other related parties. Consequently, where non-monetary consideration passes between a permanent establishment and its head office in return for the provision of services or other transactions listed on Schedule 25A, the appropriate answer to item 3a is Y for yes at B.
An Australian parent company manufactures trading stock that it sells to a foreign subsidiary for resale. The Australian parent develops a new product, which requires considerable training of the foreign subsidiary's staff to on-sell the new product.
The Australian parent provides this training, but does not charge the subsidiary. The Australian company should print Y for yes at C.
If an entity had five listed country controlled foreign companies at the start of the year and nil at the end of the year, and no unlisted country controlled foreign companies at either the year's start or end, write 05 at A.
Leave all other labels at item 9 blank.
An Australian resident transfers $10 million to a non-resident trust.
They must print Y at W for item 14.
A taxpayer has the following foreign investment fund interests:
This taxpayer completes item 19 as follows:
0 4
100,000
0 1
65,000
The Australian company XYZ Pty Ltd has its head office in Australia and is parent company to several wholly owned subsidiaries overseas. XYZ Pty Ltd also has a permanent establishment in Hong Kong.
Subsidiaries and permanent establishments qualify as international related parties.
During the year XYZ Pty Ltd had related-party dealings with its international related parties, the subsidiaries and the permanent establishment. These dealings included both capital and revenue transactions. Some of the dealings were transacted at arm's length prices, ensured by implementing and following various arm's length pricing methods, while other dealings were not.
The following related-party dealings, shown in Australian dollars, occurred during the year and are grouped under the headings in item 2 of the schedule.
Stock in trade and raw materials
Other tangible property
Royalties
Other intangible property
Management and marketing fees
Technical and construction
Research and development
Loans
Summary of the dealings
The percentage is calculated as 68.1% ($387,595 divided by $569,345). The appropriate code from the table below at item 4a is entered at F item 4a - that is, code 4.
Suggested answer to item 4b
The percentage of the related-party dealings for which there is written documentation to support the application of arm's length pricing methods is calculated as follows:
The percentage is calculated as 58.4% being $332,676 divided by $569,345. The appropriate code from the table below at item 4a is entered at G item 4b - that is, code 4.
Suggested answer to item 5
This item asks you about revenue dealings in items 2a to 2d. Item 6 asks you about capital dealings.
The revenue items in this example are all those items mentioned except the shares in the listed company, which were sold to a subsidiary, the machinery purchased by the subsidiary and transferred to XYZ Pty Ltd, and the trademark sold to the subsidiary.
The value of the revenue dealings was $509,350:
($569,345 - ($23,345 + $18,850 + $17,800))
The value of the capital dealings was $59,995:
($23,345 + $18,850 + $17,800)
The two arm's length pricing methods used in items 2a to 2d were the comparable uncontrolled pricing method (code 1), and the cost-plus method (code 3).
The percentages of total dollar value of revenue that each method covers from related-party dealings identified in items 2a to 2d are calculated as follows:
Enter the appropriate codes for these percentages from the table below at item 5.
Comparable uncontrolled price: $272,175 53.4%
($73,225 + $107,250 + $70,000 + $21,700)
Cost plus: $73,225 14.4%
The appropriate answer for item 5 is:
0 3
Suggested answer to item 6
This item concerns related-party dealings of a capital nature. These dealings are:
sale of shares to a subsidiary
$23,345
purchase of machinery
$18,850
sale of a trademark to a subsidiary
$17,800
Total
$59,995
Suggested answer to item 6a
The purchase of machinery, sale of shares and sale of the trademark to subsidiaries will all be capital gains tax events within the context of Division 104 of the ITAA 1997, and so the appropriate response to this item is Y for yes at P.
Suggested answer to item 6b
This item asks for the four principal methods used for pricing the capital dealings. In this example only three methods were used:
The appropriate answer to item 6b is:
Q 7 2 8
Suggested answer to item 6c
This item asks for the percentage of related-party dealings of a capital nature - by value - compared with the total dollar value of all related-party dealings, both capital and revenue.
In this example, the total of all related-party dealings is $569,345.
The dealings of a capital nature which are capital gains tax events in terms of Division 104 are:
sale of shares
sale of the trademark
As a percentage: $59,995 / $569,345 = 10.5%
The appropriate code from table below for item 6c is code 2.
The appropriate answer for item 6c is:
R
For the 2009 income year a Controlled Foreign Company (CFC) has:
Attributable income
$100,000
(Amount taxed on an accrual basis under CFC measures)
Attributable taxpayer owns 60% of the CFC
Taxpayer's share of attributable income
$60,000
China Co is a foreign company that is 100% owned by an Australian entity. China Co derives $15 million from the manufacture and sale of cars by China Co's employees. China Co does not have any attributable income because none of its income is tainted income.
UK Co is a resident of a listed country, an 'open-ended investment company' under UK law and 100% owned by an Australian entity. UK Co derives $1 million rental income from an unrelated party from property located in another country. The rental income is not taxed in the UK or in any other listed country. UK Co does not derive any other income. The de minimis test and the active income test will not be satisfied. The income will be 'adjusted tainted income' and will be 'eligible designated concession income'. UK Co has attributable income of $1 million.
Bermuda Co is a resident of an unlisted country and is 100% owned by an Australian entity. Bermuda Co derives $1 million from various portfolio investments in foreign shares and term deposits. Bermuda Co has attributable income of $1 million as all of its income is 'adjusted tainted income'.
For the past two years, an Australian company has owned 100% of an overseas company that manufactures and sells shoes. All the assets of the overseas company are active business assets. The Australian company has now sold 40% of the shares in the overseas company and has made a capital gain. The capital gain is reduced to nil.
Peter, a resident of Australia, owns 80% of Bermuda Limited, a company which is resident in Bermuda. Bermuda Limited fails the active income test for the relevant year of income as it has a tainted income ratio of 100%. The attribution percentage is 80%.
Gary acquires an interest in a foreign investment fund on 1 March 2009. The fund prepares its annual accounts for the accounting period 1 April to 3 March and Gary elects to align the notional accounting period with the accounting period of the fund.
He needs to include attributable income from the foreign investment fund for the period 1 March 2009 (the date of acquisition) to 31 March 2009 (the end of the elected notional period) in his tax return for the income year ended 30 June 2009. This is because the notional accounting period of the fund ended during the income year for which Gary is lodging his tax return.
If the foreign investment fund prepared its annual accounts for the accounting period 1 January to 31 December each year and Gary elected to align the notional accounting period with the accounting period of the fund, he would have to include attributable income from the fund for the period 1 March 2009 (the date of acquisition) to 31 December 2009 (the end of the elected notional accounting period) in his return for the income year ended 30 June 2010 as that is the income year in which the notional accounting period ended.
AustCo owns 75% of a controlled foreign company that is resident in an unlisted country (CFC1). The controlled foreign company becomes a resident of Australia on 30 September. CFC1 has a statutory accounting period of 1 July to 30 June. For the period 1 July to 30 September, CFC1 earned the following income:
Portfolio dividends
$10,000
Non-portfolio dividends
$15,000
Tainted interest income
$12,000
$23,000
CFC1's adjusted tainted income is $45,000. It incurs expenses of $5,000 in earning the adjusted tainted income.
CFC1's adjusted distributable profits are $40,000.
Therefore the amount attributable to AustCo under section 457 is 75% x $40,000 = $30,000.
AustCo owns 75% of CFC1, a controlled foreign company that is resident in an unlisted country. CFC1 becomes a resident of a listed country on 30 September. CFC1 has a statutory accounting period of 1 July to 30 June. For the period 1 July to 30 September, CFC1 earned the following amounts of income:
CFC1's adjusted tainted income is $45,000. It incurs expenses of $5,000 in earning the adjusted tainted income. The net profit (deemed) arising on CFC1's tainted assets at 30 September is $100,000.
CFC1's adjusted distributable profits are $140,000.
Therefore the amount attributable to AustCo under section 457 is 75% x $140,000 = $105,000.
Last Modified: Tuesday, 21 February) |
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Red Ledge Phantom or Mirage
> Test Report by Coy Ray Starnes
Red Ledge Phantom Men's Softshell Jacket.
Test Report Series by Coy Starnes
Initial Report: April 12, 2011
Field Report: August 15, 2011
Long Term Report: October 18, 2011
Front view of the Red Ledge Phantom Jacket 12, 2011
Product Information
Manufacturer
Red Ledge
Website
Size
XL, also available in S through XXL
Color
High Risk Red
Listed Weight
not listed (not on site yet)
Verified Weight
2 lb 3 oz (1 kg) on my local post office scale
MSRP
$159.99 US
Warranty
: The hangtag on the jacket basically states that all Red Ledge products are fully warranted to the original owner against defects in materials and workmanship for a full 3 years after the purchase date.
Product Description
The Red Ledge Phantom is a men's jacket. A similar model called the Mirage is available for women. This jacket is new for 2011 and not listed on the Red Ledge website yet; however, the hang tag tells me the Phantom is made of:
Membrane: Waterproof Breathable-T-Core LX® laminated with DWR (durable water repellent) finish.
Seams: 100% taped seams
Premier Fabric: : 100% nylon dobby ripstop softshell
The tag sewn inside the jacket also lists the materials the jacket is made of and differs slightly from what is listed on the hangtag. On the back of the same tag are the care instructions for the jacket. Here is a photo of both sides of the sewn on tag.
Care instructions and materials list according to sewn on tag
The hangtag list the following features:
Detachable mesh lined full featured hood
Poly Urethane interior storm flap
Pit zips for ventilation
Left chest napoleon pocket
Two lower pockets with zip closure
Elasticized cuff with adjustable Velcro
Draw cord at bottom hem
Removable snap back powder skirt with elasticized gripper hem
I'll describe the jacket in more detail throughout the report, but a softshell is basically highly (but not completely) waterproof and very wind resistant, yet is said to breathe much better than a typical hardshell rain jacket. The Phantom is un-insulated but the material is thicker than my other rain jackets so it should offer a bit of warmth.
My Initial Impressions
This is my first softshell jacket and it has been awhile since I checked any softshells out in a store. Anyways, going by the name "softshell", I was expecting it to be a little softer. That is not to say it feels hard or uncomfortable at all. The material reminds me of what I find on some car seats, not as slick as most nylon, but not textured like fleece. However, it is not stiff. In fact, it has a slightly stretchy feel to it. There is a small grid-like pattern visible on the red outer side of the jacket but the inside is black and the grid pattern looks smaller and is much less noticeable. However, the material seems laminated together because I can't pinch and separate the inner from the outer layer.
The hood on the Phantom is very nice. I like that it is detachable but made in such a way that it does not look detachable. It is a little big but does not restrict my forward vision. My side vision is also pretty good in the jacket but when I turn my head the hood does not turn completely so there is a little blockage of my view. I did try it with a ball cap on and found this pretty much solves that problem. I wear a ball cap most of the time when outside so hopefully I'll have one on when I need to deploy the hood. The hood also features a draw cord to cinch it around my face. There is a plastic-like barrel on each side of the hood that the cord passes through but no way to lock it. When pulled it does stay fairly tight, but not as tight as I might like in a blowing wind. At first I thought I might need to pull the two barrels toward each other and fasten them together somehow, but I'm not seeing how it would work. The photo on the left illustrates this barrel/cord arrangement. There is also a fleece-like material around the collar so whether the hood is removed or not, the jacket feels nice against my neck. The photo below of the back of the jacket shows how the hood is smoothly connected to the jacket.
Rear View of the Phantom Jacket
The Phantom has pit zips under each arm. The total length is approximately 10 inches (25 cm) and half runs down the side of the jacket while the other half goes up the arm. The zipper is a two-way zipper.
Pit Zip on the Phantom
I like the pockets on this jacket. The lower side pockets are what are sometimes called hand-warmer pockets. They are nice and roomy. The back side of all the pockets are made of some type of mesh material but the mesh is a very tight weave so even very small items should not slip through. They also all have zippers that appear to be waterproof so things can be secured and protected from rain if needed. The chest pocket (the napoleon pocket) is conveniently located to keep small items such as a camera or glasses handy.
Napoleon pocket
The removable snap back powder skirt with elasticized gripper hem might seem like overkill to some but I know that when I'm riding my bike, especially my recumbent, cold air can sneak up inside my jacket from the bottom. This should be a good defense for this situation.
Removable snap back powder skirt with elasticized gripper hem. Also visible is the black
inner lining of the jacket as well as the mesh inner lining for the hand-warmer pockets.
As for looks, I am pleased with the Phantom. I'm more interested in performance, but a good looking jacket never hurts, especially if I need to wear it to town etc. The red color is bright but I like bright colors for better visibility when I'm riding my bike or hiking in the woods during hunting season.
Fit
The Phantom I'm testing is an XL. Before getting into how the jacket fits me, I have a 46 in (117 cm) chest and wear size 38 pants. I have what are considered broad shoulders. I'd say the XL Phantom is a tad on the snug side, but with the stretchy fabric, it does not feel too tight. However, I can't see wearing it over many layers, especially any thick layers. I think the fit on me is what is generally called an athletic fit. The sleeves are a little long but I usually run into the same thing with any XL garment. Fortunately, the ends of each sleeve are elasticized and have Velcro fasteners so they will not slide down in my way.
The jacket fits my chest and shoulders snugly but I don't feel any binding when reaching out or across my body. This is a pretty long jacket. I am considered long waisted and I find this jacket hangs down further than most jackets, but not quite as far as a parka would. Regardless, I like the length.
Summary
I'm excited to finally see what the buzz about softshells is all about. I mean, who wouldn't want a waterproof jacket that is comfortable, wind resistant and breathes extremely well, yet wears much quieter than most rain jackets. The Red Ledge Phantom appears to be an excellent candidate for my needs but testing will bear out whether it meets the challenge.
Field Report: August 15, 2011
Test Locations and Conditions
I used the Red Ledge Phantom jacket early and often, which was a good thing because the last month and a half have been brutally hot, with temperatures at or near 100 F (38 C) and with heat indexes as high as 114 F (46 C). My coolest use was in mid April just a few weeks after getting the jacket. This use was on an early morning exercise hike and the temperature was 34 F (1 C) when I left the house. I did experience rain several times while testing the jacket. My testing was mostly around home on several bike rides and a few day hikes in the woods behind my house (the holler). I also wore it on a 40 mile (64 km) bike ride in Georgia in April and used it on a three-day canoe trip on Black Water Creek in southern Mississippi.
Field Testing Results
My first opportunity to use the Phantom was riding my bike to go weigh it it at the local post office. I left the house at 9 AM with a temperature of 48 F (9 C). I took my time going so as not to sweat inside the jacket and it took me 30 minutes to ride the 4 miles (6 km) up to the post office. I took the longer route home and still made it in 24 minutes. When I got home the temperature was 54 F (12 C). The jacket was just about perfect for these conditions but I did notice the jacket was slightly damp on the inside once I got home and took it off. It was perfectly dry when I took it off to weigh it at the post office.
I next used the jacket two days later for a 2 mile (3 km) walk with my dog. This hike was just a quick hike down to the holler and back, I left the house at 7 AM and was home by 8:30 AM. The temperature was 56 F (13 C) when I left and 60 F (16 C) when I got home. I carried a little water in a day pack that slings over my shoulder and did not sweat much if at all on the walk down to the creek, but I did have to remove the jacket shortly after starting up the steep climb headed back home. The Red Ledge Phantom jacket is not all that compact but I managed to cram it in my day pack for the hike back hone.
The next day I wore the jacket on a 40 mile (64 km) bike ride with some friends. We had to drive a little over 2 hours to reach the bike trail (The Silver Comet) in Rockmart Georgia and it was 54 F (12 C) when we started the ride at 9:10 AM. It was very windy and did not warm up a lot during the ride. I was still feeling poorly (asthma) so I took it easy for the first several miles. We stopped several times to take pictures and I kept the jacket on during the breaks. At the 20 mile (32 km) mark we took a longer break and ate a few snacks before heading back. I took the jacket off for the first time but after a few minutes I had it back on because it was still very windy and had only warmed up to 57 F (14 C). I kept kept the jacket on for the rest of the ride except for a short stop at mile 38 (61 km) when we went inside a restaurant for a late lunch. I was also sweating pretty good by now. We had met a couple of experienced bike riders at a rest stop about 5 miles (8 km) back up the trail and we left about a minute behind them. For some reason I decided to go catch them, I rode at about 20 mph (32 kmph) for a mile or so and was slowly gaining on them. But unbeknown to me, they took a side road we crossed, only I did not see them turn off. Then on the next long straight shot I noticed that I couldn't see them anymore. I thought, they must have seen me gaining and sped up? I rode hard for the next 4 miles (6 km) and maintained about 20 mph (32 kmph). I eased up when I saw I was near where we needed to stop for lunch to let the other guys I was riding with catch up. I took the jacket off and hung it wrong-side-out across the seat of my recumbent and could see steam coming up from it in the bright sunlight. I was pretty sweaty myself. I guess the point being, it handles normal sweat pretty well but not when I am working hard and sweat is rolling off my like raindrops. When the guys I was with caught up I told them I never did catch the roadies. Then we spotted them at a park bench near the restaurant and they told how they had taken the road back into town. After lunch I did not put the jacket back on so I got a little chilly on the last few miles back to the truck, mostly because I was still slightly wet from sweat from the hard riding I did a little earlier. Anyways, I put the jacket in my side pannier and it pretty much took up all the room in it. When we got back to the truck at 2:30 PM it had only warmed up to 61 F (16 C).
Jacket stored in my bike pannier
My next use saw the coolest temperature encountered so far. I was still feeling the effects of the ride the previous day but got up early to go for an exercise hike. Instead of going down the mountain, I followed the trail around the top of the bluff for a round trip total of 3 miles (5 km) hiking. The temperature was 34 F (1 C) when I left the house but it had warmed up to 40 F (4 C) by the time I got home nearly two hours later. I wore the jacket over a long sleeve thermal and was warm but never got sweaty for the entire hike. As a matter of fact, the temperatures on this hike were probably the most ideal conditions I encountered while wearing the jacket.
My next use was on April 27 as a rain jacket. This was the day we had 97 confirmed tornadoes in Alabama but my town was lucky and was missed by the worst of the storms. I left work in Guntersville at 6:20 AM about 15 minutes ahead of an F4 Fujita-rated tornado that did a lot of damage in Guntersville. It was pouring rain when I left work so I put on my jacket. I had a 20 minute drive home so just left the jacket on. It was a good thing I did because it was raining even harder when I got home. Anyways, it kept my torso and head dry going from the building at work to my truck and then from my truck to my house. I then kept it handy all day and wore it several times going back and forth to the different storm shelters in my neighborhood to tell everyone it was OK to come out. Our phone system was down and even our cell coverage was basically down that day or I would have just called. I stayed out on my front porch with my Walkman a lot during the day since we lost power at around 7 AM and I could not track the weather by TV. We did get power back for about 2 hours that afternoon but then it went off for good until late Friday evening.
My next use was on May the 3rd. It rained all day. The temperature was around 60 F (16 C) that morning but slowly cooled as the day went along. It was 51 F (11 C) at lunch time and 48 at (9 C) 3 PM. I mainly wore it just for quick trips out in the yard to check the mail etc. However, at around 2 PM I did wear it for a short walk across my neighbors pasture to see what his dogs were barking at. I was out about 45 minutes and the rain was a light drizzle but it was very windy so I got some rain in my face even with the hood on.
My next use was on May the 5th, when I went for an early morning 15 mile (24 km) bike ride. It was 44 F (7 C) when I left the house at 7:30 AM and 48 F (9 C) when I returned at 9 AM. This proved to be good weather for the jacket but I was sweating slightly by the end of the ride.
It warmed up a bit for the next few weeks but on May 16 it cooled back down. I got up and helped fix breakfast and then went for a short walk of about 2 miles (3 km) down to the swimming hole in the holler. It was 51 F (11 C) when I left the house at around 7 AM and 55 F (13 C) when I returned at around 9 AM.
After this hike it turned real hot and I just did not have any opportunities to wear the jacket. I did take it on a three-day paddle in mid July and it did rain a few times, but it was just too hot to use the Red Ledge Phantom as a rain jacket. I did use it as a cover over my gear in the canoe while paddling each day. It kept my gear reasonably dry during several brief rain showers. I thought I might need it to keep warm at night but it was almost to hot to sleep at all so it stayed in my hammock under my head every night. I think the low on both nights was around 77 F (25 C) but it was also very humid. Anyways, the jacket worked OK as a pillow but was nothing to write home about. However, we stopped several times each day to swim and just take it easy so I would dig out the jacket and used it to sit or lay on. In this photo I had actually gone to sleep and did not know anyone had taken the picture until I got home and got it in an email from the guy who took it.
using the Red Ledge Phantom for a quick mid-day nap
Summary
The Red Ledge Phantom seems like a really nice softshell jacket. I know it worked great at keeping me warm on several cool bike rides and exercise hikes. However, due to the warm and even hot weather, I don't think I got to test the jacket in ideal conditions. The jacket is holding up very nicely and looks remarkably new, but again, I have not been able to use it a whole lot since the weather turned so hot. Please stay tuned for my Long Term Report in approximately two months. Hopefully the weather will cool down a bit. I know I'm ready for some cooler weather.
Long Term Report: October 18, 2011
Author riding his mountain bike with the Red Ledge Phantom
Test Locations and Conditions
It started cooling down a little in September but was still a little warm to really need the Red Ledge Phantom. However, we had several big rains and I managed to use the jacket several times during brief outdoor uses. October saw much cooler weather and I managed to wear the jacket on several early morning mountain bike rides as well as on one overnight backpacking trip. The coolest temperature was on a 3 mile (5 km) mountain bike ride when the temperature was 48 F (9 C) at the start of the ride and 53 at the end of the ride an hour later. One 11 mile (18 km) ride saw a starting temperature of 51 F (11 C) and ended at around 70 F (21 C) some 4 hours later (I take a lot of breaks). I wore the jacket the first hour but had to take it off when it got up to around 60 F (16 C). On my overnight hiking trip I hiked in the dark for 1 mile (1.6 km). The temperature was mild at 63 F (17 C) and there was light drizzle as I hiked. It only cooled down to 60 F (16 C) by morning. I hiked 4 more miles (6 km) but it quickly warmed up and I did not need the jacket after the first mile (1.6 km) of hiking. Actually, I could have made it without wearing the Phantom at all, but it did feel good while I fixed breakfast and then stuck camp.
Long Term Test Results
The Red Ledge Phantom has proven to be a very versatile jacket. I wish temperatures had been a little cooler, but I found that by opening the pit zips early during a ride or hike I could manage my body temp fairly well. After warming up a little more I could unzip the front of the jacket and continue riding or hiking until I started sweating pretty vigorously. I would then pack the jacket away in my hydration pack or backpack.
I usually wore the jacket under my hydration pack while riding my bike and it worked great because I could later stuff it inside the pack. However, I recently went on a short 3 mile (5 km) ride without the hydration pack just to see if I could pack what I needed in the pockets of the jacket. Since I was never more than about 1.5 miles (2.4 km) from home I did not take a spare inner tube or my pump but did take my cell phone, house keys, a 20 oz (0.6 L) water bottle and my camera. The phone and keys were kept in my lower left-hand pocket, my water bottle in the lower right-hand pocket and my camera in the upper chest pocket. I really did not notice the things in my lower pockets until I unzipped the jacket mid-ride. I had already drank some of the water and drunk some more while I was stopped. Anyways, I guess the now half empty bottle was just making some noise. The bottle was one of those very thin water bottles you get when you buy a case of store brand bottled waters. It really wasn't bothersome but I did notice the noise it as I continued my ride.
Waterproofness and Breathability
Since softshell jackets are touted as a waterproof and breathable I wanted to comment a little more on how I found the Phantom's performance in this regard. I wore the jacket with the hood deployed several time when it was pouring rain, but never for more than 20 minutes during said rain. These were short walks around the plant at work, in my yard at home or walking over to my dad's house nearby for lunch or to help him do something. On my hike in a light drizzle I also found the jacket was completely waterproof. I actually did not have the hood on during the hike. What I did find was that the Phantom is completely waterproof, at least for the time I spent wearing it in some very hard rains.
On the other hand, I wore it several times when it was not raining and did notice the inside of the jacket got pretty wet, depending on my level of exertion and the outside temperature. For example, it was actually a little warmer buy about 3 degrees F (2 C) on one ride. However, I kept the jacket on at least 30 minutes longer and did not sweat nearly as much on the ride with the warmer temperatures. The difference being, the time I wore the jacket longer, I was riding on a flat trail and my heart rate never got over 130 beats per minute. On the shorter but cooler ride I sweated a lot more and my heart rate was around 150 beats per minute several times throughout this ride. Here I am at the end of the shorter ride.
I dont sweat, I glisten....
Durability
I have no complaints as to the durability of the Red Ledge Phantom. The material was subjected to quite a bit of abrasion when hiking and riding the local trails I frequent. All zippers are still functioning great. I can't say how it would fair under heavy pack straps but I did ride several miles with a hydration pack that probably weighed 10 lb (5 kg) and the one hike was with a 30 lb (14 kg) pack.
Summary
The Red Ledge Phantom is a first class softshell at a fair price! Breathability is good, but not great, however, I have yet to find a truly waterproof garment that is. I do wish Red Ledge offered this jacket in a high visibility color since it is such a great jacket for bike riding. I want cars (the driver) to see me, and now that I have taken up mountain bike riding, hunters too. I say this going by the color choices we testers were offered at the beginning of the test. I still do not see the Phantom (or ladies Mirage) listed on the website. The Phantom is not the most packable jacket but this never was a strong point of softshell garments. Based on my experiences early on during my testing I feel it does offer a lot of warmth for its weight. I don't think I really got to test the lower temperature limits of the jacket but did find it was good for as low as 34 F (1 C) as long as I was moving and OK for mild exertion in temperatures as high as the mid 80s F (around 29 C). Of course at the warmest temperatures I wore it only for rain protection as I would not normally wear a jacket at these temperatures. In other words, the Phantom is a very versatile jacket, offering great protection from the elements over a wide range of temperatures while being very comfortable to wear. It is really hard to ask much more from a jacket. I foresee the Red Ledge Phantom becoming my go to jacket for a lot of my winter activities.
I would like to thank BackpackGearTest.org and Red Ledge for the opportunity to test the Phantom Men's Softshell Jacket. I hope my findings are beneficial to all who read it.
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Abstract
Background
Salivary proteins from sandflies are potential targets for exploitation as vaccines to control Leishmania infection; in this work we tested the hypothesis that salivary proteins from geographically distant Phlebotomus duboscqi sandfly populations are highly divergent due to the pressure exerted by the host immune response. Salivary gland cDNA libraries were prepared from wild-caught P. duboscqi from Mali and recently colonised flies of the same species from Kenya.
Results
Transcriptome and proteome analysis resulted in the identification of the most abundant salivary gland-secreted proteins. Orthologues of these salivary proteins were identified by phylogenetic tree analysis. Moreover, comparative analysis between the orthologues of these two different populations resulted in a high level of protein identity, including the predicted MHC class II T-cell epitopes from all these salivary proteins.
Conclusion
These data refute the hypothesis that salivary proteins from geographically distinct populations of the same Phlebotomus sandfly species are highly divergent. They also suggest the potential for using the same species-specific components in a potential vector saliva-based vaccine.
Background
Leishmaniasis is a vector-borne disease transmitted by Phlebotomine sandflies. The Leishmania parasite develops to an infective form inside the gut of the sandfly and is injected together with saliva into a mammalian host during blood feeding. Components present in sandfly saliva, as well as in the saliva of other arthropod vectors, have been shown to contain potent anti-hemostatic and immunomodulatory activities [1], and are able to enhance Leishmania infection [2]. Salivary proteins therefore are potential candidates for vaccines to control vector-borne diseases.
Immune responses to either sandfly salivary gland homogenate [3,4] or to the bites of sandflies [5] have been shown to protect animals against Leishmania infection. Two molecules isolated from the saliva of sandflies have been shown to confer this protection, one named "maxadilan" is a vasodilatory and immunomodulatory molecule present in the saliva of Lutzomyia longipalpis [6-8], and the other called PpSP15, is a molecule present in the saliva of Phlebotomus papatasi [9]. Maxadilan injected together with parasites was shown to enhance Leishmania major infection in laboratory animals as compared to injection with Leishmania major alone, and vaccination with maxadilan reversed this effect and protected animals against L. major infection [7]. Animals vaccinated with PpSP15 salivary protein developed a strong delayed-type hypersensitivity response to this protein that was sufficient to protect them against L. major infection since B-cell deficient animals vaccinated with PpSP15 were also protected [9].
The sand fly Phlebotomus duboscqi is a proven vector of L. major in Sub-Saharan Africa from Ethiopia to Senegal. It belongs to the subgenus Phlebotomus together with P. papatas, P. bergeroti and P. salehii. Electrophoretic profiles of salivary proteins of P. duboscqi eastern populations (Ethiopia) differ from western ones (Senegal) [10]. Cutaneous leishmaniasis has been reported in Northwest and Northeast Mali and P. duboscqi was reported as the suspected vector [11]. Until now there has been no information available concerning the repertoire of salivary proteins from this vector of disease, and the degree of intraspecific homogeneity present in the salivary proteins of conspecific specimens from two different geographic locations. In was previously reported that the salivary protein maxadilan, from the Lutzomyia longipalpis sand fly, was highly variable, up to 23% differences in amino acid identity between different sandfly populations of sandfly colonies derived from Brazil, Colombia and Costa Rica [12]. It was hypothesised that this variability was due to antigenic polymorphism that ultimately would avoid the host immune response and therefore neutralisation of a salivary protein important in blood feeding [12]. In this work we studied the salivary gland transcriptomes of P. duboscqi from two different locations, Mali and Kenya to test the hypothesis that sandfly salivary proteins from two geographically distinct but conspecific populations are very divergent due to the immune pressure exerted by the mammalian host. Moreover, the degree of similarity in the salivary proteins from a sand fly species originating from two different geographic locations was never investigated. Knowledge of the latter is an important aspect of vaccine development, where target proteins should exhibit a degree of conservancy within the species across its distribution range to be viable vaccine candidates.
Results and discussion
Sequencing of two salivary gland cDNA libraries collected in East and West Africa
We constructed and sequenced two salivary gland cDNA libraries from P. duboscqi collected in West Africa (Mali) and East Africa (Kenya). The total number of high-quality sequences analysed from the Mali cDNA library was 988 and from the Kenya cDNA library the sequence total was 924. The majority of the analysed transcripts from these two cDNA libraries code for secreted proteins (Figure 1). P. duboscqi Mali cDNA library (PduM) resulted in 77.7 % of transcripts coding for secreted proteins, 11% coding for housekeeping genes and 11.3 % coding for proteins with no clear signal secretory peptide and with unknown function (Figure 1A). Similarly, P. duboscqi Kenya cDNA library (PduK) resulted in 82.6% of transcripts coding for secreted proteins, 9.4 % coding for housekeeping genes and 8.0% coding for proteins with no clear signal secretory peptide and with unknown function (Figure 1B). The high percentage of secreted proteins found on P. duboscqi salivary gland cDNA library is similar to the ones observed in cDNA libraries from other sandflies and mosquitoes [13,14].
Table 1 and Table 2 list the transcripts coding for the most abundant and secreted salivary gland proteins from P. duboscqi collected in Mali and Kenya, respectively. The tables were arranged from the most abundant to the least abundant transcripts found in the two cDNA libraries. For example, transcript PduM02 is listed first and it contains 182 sequences (Table 1). The nomenclature for the transcripts on these cDNA libraries is the following: Pdu = Phlebotomus duboscqi, M = Mali, K = Kenya, and the number (ie: 02) denotes the contig number on the cDNA library where a contig is a cluster of identical transcripts. Many of the isolated transcripts code for proteins previously identified from the saliva of P. papatasi or L. longipalpis including PpSP15-like protein, yellow-related proteins, apyrase-like, and PpSP32-like, among others. Notably, we identified a transcript coding for adenosine deaminase (PduM73), which was previously identified in the sandfly L. longipalpis [15] and the mosquito Aedes aegypti [16] but never reported in Phlebotomus sandflies. There were also other transcripts coding for proteins not previously reported in sandflies (Table 1).
Table 1. Salivary gland cDNA coding for secreted proteins from the sand fly Phlebotomus duboscqi from Mali
Proteome analysis of salivary proteins from P. duboscqi from Mali and Kenya
Edman degradation of the salivary proteins isolated from P. duboscqi Mali strain resulted in the identification of 16 different N-terminal sequences (Figure 2A). The transcripts coding for these N-terminal sequences were identified by searching the open reading frames of the transcripts from the constructed P. duboscqi cDNA database (Figure 2A). The identified proteins were two PpSP12-like proteins (PduM07, PduM31), two PpSP15-like protein (PduM02 and PduM06), three D7-related protein (PduM29, PduM01, PduM46), two apyrase-like proteins (PduM39 and PduM38), a 32-kDa protein from L. longipalpis (PduM05), two yellow-related proteins (PduM35, PduM10) and two adenosine deaminase-like proteins (PduM74 and PduM73). We also found proteins with the same N-terminal sequence but with different gel mobilities (PduM10, PduM35, PduM01, PduM02). These may represent the same protein with different post-translational modifications.
From P. duboscqi Kenya salivary gland protein analysis we found 15 different Nterminus sequences (Figure 2B). The transcripts coding for these n-terminal sequences were identified by searching the P. duboscqi Kenya cDNA database (Figure 2B). The identified proteins were: two PpSP12-like proteins (PduK40, PduK57), one PpSP15-like protein (PduK01), four D7-related proteins (PduK35, PduK34 and PduK69), one apyrase-like protein (PduK50), a 32-kDa protein (PduK50), three yellow-related proteins (Pduk06, PduK05 and PduK04) and an adenosine deaminase-like protein (PduK60).
Phylogenetic tree analysis, multiple sequence alignment and identification of potential MHC class II T-cell epitopes of P. duboscqi salivary proteins
To evaluate the phylogenetic relationship among these salivary proteins and provide a better assessment of the homology of secreted salivary proteins from these two different sandfly populations, we performed sequence alignment and phylogenetic tree analysis of the most abundant and secreted proteins from the Mali and Kenya cDNA libraries. The objective of this analysis was to identify and compare the orthologues between these two geographically distant sandfly species. Because cellular immune responses to salivary proteins, particularly CD4 T cell-dependent response, are associated with protection against Leishmania infection, we searched for putative MHC class II T cell epitopes in these salivary proteins and compared how conserved these epitopes were between the salivary orthologues of the two sandfly populations.
Following is a description of the analysis of these salivary proteins:
PpSP14-like proteins
PpSP14-like proteins are related to the 14-kDa salivary proteins of unknown function from P. papatasi and also identified in other sandflies, but not in other insects [9]. We found three members of this family of proteins (PduM50, PduM57 and PduM60) on the cDNA library of P. duboscqi Mali strain and two members (PduK49 and PduK58) in the Kenya strain. Phylogenetic tree analysis of these salivary proteins resulted in the formation of three distinct clades, one containing PduM50 and Pduk49, the second containing PpSP14 and PduM57, and the third containing PduK58 and PduM60 (Figure 3). PduM50 and PduK49 is a cluster of orthologous sequences (COG) as well as PduM60 and PduK58. When comparing the number of transcripts among these orthologues, PduK49 has 22 transcripts and PduM50 has only eight transcripts, overall, these sequences contained more (PduK49) or fewer (PduM50) sequences from a particular value than expected from a random distribution, as evaluated by the χ2 test, this suggests that this transcript/protein may be more represented in the Kenya population than in the Mali population. PduK58 has ten transcripts and PduM60 has five transcripts, which may suggest that these transcripts/proteins may be represented in similar proportions in these two populations. PduM57 may be a transcript/protein present only in the Mali population or rarely in the Kenya population. Sequence comparison of these orthologues resulted in a 99.3% identity between PduM60 and PduK58 (Figure 3B) and 99.8% identity between PduM50 and PduK49 (Figure 3C). Because cellular immune responses (specifically a DTH response) to sandfly proteins are related to protection against Leishmania infection, we wanted to identify potential MHC class II-restricted epitopes in these salivary proteins and determine whether these epitopes were conserved when comparing two different sandfly populations. We identified an epitope in PduM60, VVTANKKNQ (Figure 3B), which is 100% identical in PduK58. The epitope for PduM50 and PduK49 is IKYNVVAAKKRGE (Figure 3C), which is also 100% identical.
Figure 3. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of SP14-like proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP14), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM50, Pdum57 and PduM60) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK49 and PduK58). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduK58 and PduM60.
Black-shaded amino acids (aa) represent identical aa, grey-shaded aa represent conserved
aa and * at the top of the aa denotes potential T cell epitopes as searched by using
the TEPITOPE software. (C) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduK49 and PduM50.
Black-shaded aa represent identical aa, grey-shaded aa represent conserved aa and
* at the top of aa denotes potential T-cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE
software.
PpSP15-like proteins
Immunisation of mice with PpSP15 protein or DNA plasmid coding for this protein from the saliva of P. papatasi was previously shown to protect mice against L. major infection [9]. Three members of the PpSP15-like family were identified in each sandfly cDNA library, PduM02, 03 and 06 from the Mali cDNA library and PduK01, 02 and 03 from the Kenya cDNA library. Phylogenetic tree analysis of these proteins resulted in the formation of three distinct groups (Figure 4A). Two groups with single members including PpSP15 and PduK02, a group with three members – including a cluster of orthologous sequences PduM03 and PduK03 – and the third group that includes the orthologues PduM06 and PduK01 (Figure 4A). In the third group, PduK01 is highly represented in this library (155 transcripts) as compared with PduM06 (63 transcripts), overall, these sequences contained more (PduK01) or fewer (PduM06) sequences from a particular value than expected from a random distribution, as evaluated by the χ2 test, thus, this suggest that this protein is more frequent in the Kenya population than in the Mali population. When orthologues were compared, we observed a 100% identity between PduM03 and PduK03 (Figure 4B) and 100% identity between PduM06 and PduK01 (Figure 4C). Using TEPITOPE software on these sequences we identified two potential MHC class II T-cell epitopes in PduM03, YGFIDVNYN and YRCVLTSKL (Figure 3B). Two potential T-cell epitopes were found in PduM06, LIKHGVVEI AND WLNCRSIVD (Figure 4C).
Figure 4. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of SP15-like proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP15), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM02, PduM03 and PduM06) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK02 and PduK03 and PduK01). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduM03
and PduK03. * at the top of amino acids denotes potential
T cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE software.
PpSP12-like proteins
This family of proteins was previously described in the salivary glands of P. papatasi and is a protein of 12 kDa with unknown function [9]. Transcripts with homologies to this protein were also found in the two sandfly cDNA libraries in the present work. Interestingly, this family of proteins had many members that were unlike the other salivary proteins in this sandfly in either location. For the Mali population we identified eight members, PduM07, 12, 31, 32, 49, 58, 62, and 99, and for the Kenya strain six members were identified, PduK40, 41, 42, 56, 57, and 109. Phylogenetic tree analysis resulted in the formation of 3 major clades (Figure 5), one clade containing PpSP12 and two orthologues PduM58 and PduK57, a second clade containing the orthologues PduM07 and PduK40 and a third clade containing a rapidly diverging salivary proteins, including various clusters of orthologous sequences such as PduM12 and PduK109, PduM31 and PduK56, PduM49 and PduK41, PduM234 and PduK42, and PduM07 and PduK40 (Figure 5). Sequence comparison between the different SP12-like orthologues resulted in a high level of identity among these proteins (Figure 6). PduM58 and PduK57 were 98.6 % identical and the predicted T-cell epitopes (Figure 6A) were 100% identical; PduM12 and PduK109 were 71.6% identical and the predicted T-cell epitopes were 89% identical (Figure 6B); PduM31 and PduK56 were 100 % identical (Figure 6C); PduM49 and PduK41 were 97% identical and the predicted T cell epitope was 100% identical (Figure 6D); PduM234 and PduK42 were 84.4 % identical and the predicted T cell epitope was 75% identical; PduM07 and PduK40 were 93% identical and the predicted T-cell epitope was 100% identical.
Figure 5. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of SP12 like proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP12), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM58, PduM12, PduM99, PduM62, PduM31, PduM188, PduM49, PduM234 and PduM07)
and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK57, PduK109, PduK56, PduK41 and PduK42).
Figure 6. Sequence alignment of the orthologues (A) PduK57 and PduM58; (B) PduM12 and PduK109;
(C) PduM31 and PduK56; (D) PduM49 and PduK41; (E) PduM234 and PduK42; (F) PduM07 and
PduK40. Black-shaded amino acids represent identical amino acids, grey-shaded amino
acids represent conserved amino acids and * at the top of amino acids denotes potential
T cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE software.
D7-like proteins (SP28 and SP30)
Transcripts with homology to the D7 family of proteins were identified in both cDNA libraries. D7 protein was previously reported in mosquitoes [17] and sandflies [18]. Only recently has its function been described from the saliva of Anopheles mosquito as a anti-clotting factor [19], and as a serotonin and small amine-binding protein [20]. Phylogenetic tree analysis of D7 proteins from various sandflies, including transcripts from Mali and Kenya, resulted in the formation of six different clades. Three clades are clusters of orthologous sequences that include PpeSP10 (P. perniciosus D7) and ParSP07 (P. ariasi D7), PpSP30 (P. papatasi D7) and PduK103 and a third cluster containing PduM46 and PduK69. Sequence comparison from the orthologues PduM46 and PduK69 showed 100% sequence identity and sharing of three potential T cell epitopes (Figure 7B).
Figure 7. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of SP30 like (D7 like) proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP30), P. argentipes (PagSP25), P. perniciosus (PpeSP10), P. ariasi (ParSP07),
P. duboscqi Mali (PduM47 and PduM46) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK78, PduK103 and PduK69). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduM46
and PduK69. Black-shaded amino acids represent identical amino acids and * at the
top of the amino acids denotes potential T cell epitopes as searched by using the
TEPITOPE software.
SP32-like proteins
This protein family belongs to the silk-related and collagen-like protein in sandflies [9]. This type of protein has not been described in other blood feeding arthropods, yet it is present in the Phlebotomus as well as in the Lutzomyia sandflies [18]. These proteins are characterised by a large number of low complexity amino acids such as Glycine (G), arginine (R), proline (P) and serine (S), throughout the molecule (Figure 8). Phylogenetic tree analysis of various SP32-like proteins from different sandflies, including P. duboscqi Mali and Kenya, resulted in the formation of various clades (Figure 8A). Three of these clades are clusters of orthologues sequences: the first clade contains PduM33 and PduK83, the second clade contains PduM34 and PduK46, and the third clade contains PduM72 and PduK45 (Figure 8A). Sequence comparison between the SP32-like orthologues from Kenya and Mali resulted in a high degree of homology (Figure 8B,C,D). PduM33 and PduK83 had 96.1% sequence identity; additionally, two of the three potential T-cell epitopes (TTFPSSGWG AND SSRQNSRQPG) are 100 % identical (Figure 8B). PduM34 and PduK46 are 97.1 % identical and the two potential Tcell epitopes (FPTKGVDSL and RQNSRQQGRR) are 100% identical (Figure 8C). PduM72 and PduK45 are 84% identical, one potential T cell epitope (FPTKGVESL) is 100 % identical and the other two potential T cell epitopes (GQNSRQQRG and SPAKYIFAT) are 89% identical (Figure 8D).
Figure 8. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of SP32-like proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP32), P. argentipes (PagSP06), P. perniciosus (PpeSP06), P. ariasi (ParSP02), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM87, PduM33, PduM34 and PduM72) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK83, PduK46 and PduK45). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduM33
and PduK83; (C) PduM34 and PduK46; (D) PduM72 and PduK45., grey-shaded amino acids represent conserved amino acids, * at the top
of amino acids denotes potential T cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE
software.
Antigen 5-related protein
This family of proteins belongs to the cysteine rich family of proteins (CRISP) found in wasp venom [21], hookworm [22], mosquitoes [23] and sandflies [18]. We found transcripts coding for this family of proteins in the P. duboscqi salivary gland cDNA libraries from Mali and Kenya. Phylogenetic tree analysis of antigen 5-related proteins from various sandflies, including the antigen 5-related proteins from P. duboscqi (Mali and Kenya), resulted in the formation of various clades – one of them containing the orthologues PduM48 and PduK68 from Mali and Kenya (Figure 9A). Sequence comparison of these orthologues resulted in 100% identity, including two potential T-cell epitopes (Figure 9B).
Figure 9. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of antigen 5-like proteins from P. papatasi (PpAg5), P. argentipes (PagSP05), P. perniciosus (PpeSP07), P. ariasi (ParSP05), L. longipalpis (LJL34), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM48) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK107 and PduK68). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduM48 and PduK68.
Black-shaded amino acids represent identical amino acids and * at the top of the amino
acids denotes potential T cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE software.
(C)
Apyrase-like protein
Transcripts were found on the P. duboscqi Mali and Kenya cDNA libraries coding for a protein homologous to the Cimex family of apyrases [24], a protein also present in other organisms including sandflies [25], worms, mouse and humans [26,27]. Secreted apyrases function as potent anti-platelet factors by hydrolysing the platelet activator adenosine diphosphate (ADP). Phylogenetic tree analysis of apyrase-like proteins from different sandflies resulted in the identification of the apyrase-like orthologues PduK50 and PduM39 from the two cDNA salivary gland libraries (Figure 10A). The phylogenetic tree also shows that the apyrase-like proteins from P. duboscqi are closely related to P. papatasi apyrases and apart from other Phlebotomus and Lutzomyia apyrases. Sequence comparison between the Mali and Kenya orthologues shows a high degree of identity, 94.6%, between these two proteins (Figure 10B). Of interest, we observed five potential epitopes in this molecule, almost twice the number of epitopes identified from the other sandfly proteins. Four of these epitopes are 100% identical when comparing apyrase epitopes from Mali and Kenya proteins (Figure 10B).
Figure 10. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of apyrase-like proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP36), P. argentipes (PagSP03), P. perniciosus (PpeSP01), P. ariasi (ParSP01), L. longipalpis (LJL23), P. duboscqi Mali (PduM38 and PduM39) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK50). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduK50 and PduM39. Black-shaded
amino acids represent identical amino acids, grey-shaded amino acids represent conserved
amino acids, and * at the top of the amino acids denotes potential T cell epitopes
as searched by using the TEPITOPE software. (C)
Yellow-related proteins
We identified in the P. duboscqi Mali cDNA library 2 transcripts (PduM10 and PduM35) and in the Kenya cDNA library 2 transcripts (PduK04 and PduK06) coding for a yellow related protein, a protein previously described in the saliva of P. duboscqi [28], other sand flies [18] and other insects[29]. Volf et al. [28] reported lectin activity of 42 kDa yellow-related protein purified from P. duboscqi lysates. However, the function of this protein in the saliva of insects remains unknown. Notably, a homologous protein was purified from Aedes aegypti midgut having a dopa decarboxylase activity [30]; this activity in the saliva of sandflies remains to be tested. Phylogenetic tree analysis of yellow-related proteins from different sandflies, including Mali and Kenya, resulted in the formation of five different clades (Figure 11A). Clusters of othologous sequences for the Mali and Kenya strain were found in the first two clusters, one containing the orthologues PduK06 and PduM35, and the other containing PduM10 and PduK04 (Figure 11A). Sequence comparison of PduK06 and PduM07 resulted in 97.5% identity (Figure 11B) and in 100% identity in the two potential T-cell epitopes identified (Figure 11B). Sequence comparison of PduM10 and PduK04 resulted in 100 % identity, including the two T-cell epitopes identified (Figure 11C).
Figure 11. (A) Phylogenetic tree analysis of yellow-related proteins from P. papatasi (PpSP), P. argentipes (PagSP), P. perniciosus (PpeSP), P. ariasi (ParSP), L. longipalpis (LJ), P. duboscqi Mali (Pd) and P. duboscqi Kenya (PduK). (B) Sequence alignment of the orthologues PduK06 and PduM35; (C) PduK04
and PduM10. Black-shaded amino acids represent identical amino acids, grey-shaded
amino acids represent conserved amino acids, and * at the top of the amino acids denotes
potential T cell epitopes as searched by using the TEPITOPE software.
Conclusion
Salivary transcriptome and proteome analysis of P. duboscqi has resulted in a better understanding at the molecular level of the repertoire of proteins present in the saliva of this sandfly (Tables 1 and 2). Most salivary transcripts identified from the P. duboscqi cDNA libraries are very similar to those of the salivary proteins previously identified in P. papatasi. This is not surprising, because both P. papatasi and P. duboscqi belong to the same subgenus (Phlebotomus) and are proven natural vectors of L. major. A clear difference between P. duboscqi and P. papatasi cDNA libraries was the presence in P. duboscqi of an adenosine deaminase (the transcript and the protein). Adenosine deaminase has been reported in Aedes and Culex mosquitoes [31] and in the sandfly L. longipalpis; however, not in sandflies from the genus Phlebotomus [15].
This salivary transcriptome analysis allowed us to compare the salivary proteins of a sandfly from two different geographical locations. We investigated whether the salivary proteins from two different sites (Mali and Kenya) would be divergent, as previously reported with the salivary protein maxadilan when comparing L. longipalpis sandflies from Costa Rica, Colombia, and Brazil [12]. In the present work, we performed a global comparative analysis of the most abundant salivary proteins of sandflies from two locations, and searched for orthologues using phylogenetic analysis. We found the majority of the proteins to be highly conserved at both the aa and the nucleotide levels. We found that at least five families of proteins (SP15-like, SP12-like, D7-like, antigen 5-like, and yellow-related protein) were 100% identical in sandflies from Mali and Kenya. The other families were also highly conserved (94.6% to 99.8%) with the exception of three proteins that had moderate homology (of 18 orthologous sequences): two SP12-like members that were 84.4% and 71.6% identical, respectively, and a SP32-like member that was 84% identical.
Because cellular immune responses to sandfly saliva – particularly a DTH response – was previously associated with protection against Leishmania infection [5,9], we wanted first to identify potential MHC class II T-cell epitopes, which are required for DTH T cell-dependent responses and then determine whether these putative epitopes were also conserved among salivary proteins from these sandflies. The majority of potential T-cell epitopes were highly conserved among the different sandfly proteins; in fact, the majority of potential T cell epitopes were 100% identical, with the exception of only five epitopes that were 75% to 90% identical. These data suggest that even if the overall level of identity of some salivary proteins (Mali vs Kenya) is not 100%, the proteins have the potential to cross-react, at least at the level of cellular immune response (DTH) because of the high conservation of their T-cell epitopes that can be presented in the proper MHC class II context. This assumption needs to be tested experimentally.
A possible explanation for the conservation of salivary proteins include recent establishment of these sandflies in these regions with little or no evolutionary pressure from host immune response on these salivary proteins; or evolutionary pressure to keep these sequences constant (negative selection). Additionally, the location of these sand flies is more than 2000 thousand of kilometers apart. Then, it is difficult to suggest that there is a continuous exchange of sand flies in the whole sub-Saharan Africa moving from Kenya all the way to Mali or is also possible that the gene flow may be very low. In history, this area was affected by dramatic aridization (~5 millions years ago) [32] and consequent creation of Sahel as a unique transient formation (~3 milions years ago) [33], events that might led to separation and later rejoining of Eastern and Western populations of P. duboscqi. Further studies are needed to determine if these two populations are genetically isolated.
A DTH response to P. papatasi bites in mice was experimentally demonstrated to help these sandflies to probe and feed faster [34]. It was shown that this type of response considerably increased blood flow at the site of the bite (after subsequent sandfly challenge), creating a favorable environment for feeding. It is thus possible that this type of immune response may favor sandfly survival in nature and therefore will also favor the presence of highly conserved sequences in their salivary proteins.
The data presented in this work are in contrast to previous studies performed with the salivary protein maxadilan from the sandfly L. longipalpis, which was shown to be highly divergent between sandflies of distinct locations [12]. In contrast, PpSP15 from P. papatasi was shown to be highly conserved when comparing sandflies from different locations and isolates from field and laboratory colonies [35]. Therefore, it is possible that Phlebotomus salivary proteins are more conserved in general than proteins present in the saliva of Lutzomyia sandflies, perhaps due to the benefit accrued in increased feeding due to the host DTH response. It is also important to take into account that L. longipalpis is allegedly a complex of cryptic species [36], hence the larger variability observed in their salivary protein. Additionally, if P. duboscqi is a much older sand fly than L. longipalpis, it may be possible that Phlebotomus sand flies are more stable species which could explain the high conservancy of salivary proteins in the two different Phlebotomus species (P. papatasi and P. duboscqi).
Sandfly salivary components are potential vaccine candidates to control Leishmania infection. Our results suggest that P. duboscqi salivary protein that may be able to produce a protective cellular immune response should be able to induce the same immune response in hosts from distant geographical locations in the Sub-Saharan Africa where P. duboscqi is present.
Methods
Sandfly capture
Female Phlebotomus duboscqi sandflies were captured alive with solid-state miniature light traps(John Hock Company Ins., Gainsville, FL) and mouth aspirators in the villages of Kemena (-6° 54' 37", 13° 07, 22") Baraoueli Distric, Mali. The live flies were held in paper holding containers and stored in a cooler until they could be transported to the laboratory. In the laboratory, sandflies were identified to species using appropriate taxonomic keys for West Africa [37] and the salivary glands dissected and stored in groups of 20 pairs in RNA later® solution (Ambion) and stored at 4°C until use.
Sandfly salivary glands
Adult Phlebotomus duboscqi from a colony originated from Kenya were kept with free access to a 30% solution of sucrose. Salivary glands from recently emerged and 1- to 2-day-old adult female flies were dissected and transferred to 10 or 20 μl HEPES 10 mM pH 7.0, NaCl 0.15 M in 1.5 ml polypropylene vials, usually in groups of 10 pairs of glands in 20 μl of HEPES saline, or individually in 10 μl of HEPES saline. Salivary glands were stored at 75°C until needed.
Salivary gland cDNA libraries
Phlebotomus duboscqi (Mali and Kenya) salivary gland mRNA was isolated from 45 and 55 salivarygland pairs, respectively, using the MicroFastTrack mRNA isolation kit (Invitrogen, SanDiego, CA). The PCR-based cDNA library was made following the instructions for the SMART cDNA library construction kit (BD-Clontech, Palo Alto, CA) with some modifications [14]. The obtained cDNA libraries (large, medium and small size) were plated by infecting log phase XL1-blue cells (Clontech) and the amount of recombinants was determined by PCR using vector primers flanking the inserted cDNA and visualised on a 1.1 % agarose gel with ethidium bromide (1.5 ug/ml).
Massive sequencing of cDNA libraries
P. duboscqi-Mali and P. duboscqi-Kenya salivary gland cDNA libraries were sequenced as previously described using an Applied Biosystems 3730xl DNA Analyzer and a CEQ 2000XL DNA sequencing instrument (Beckman Coulter, Fullerton, CA) [18].
Bioinformatics
Detailed description of the bioinformatic treatment of the data appear in [18,38,39]. Briefly, primer and vector sequences were removed from raw sequences and quality of sequence determined. Sequences were compared with the GenBank non-redundant (nr) protein database using the standalone Blastx program found in an executable package as previously described [40]. Related sequences were grouped into contigs and aligned using a CAP assembler. Contigs and singletons (contig containing only one sequence) were compared using the program blastX, blastN, or rpsBlast [40] to the non-redundant (nr) protein database of the National Center of Biological Information (NCBI), to the gene ontology database (GO) [41], the Conserved Domains Database (CDD) that includes all Pfam [42], SMART [43] and COG protein domains in the NCBI [44]. Additionally, contigs were compared with a customised subset of the NCBI nucleotide database containing either mitochondrial (mit-pla) or rRNA (rrna) sequences. Identification of putative secreted proteins was conducted using the SignalP server [45]..
Phylogenetic analysis
Protein families, identified through the bioinformatics analysis, were further analysed using phylogenetics. Consensus protein sequences of the identified protein families from each of the sandflies used in this analysis were compared with related sequences from sandfly vectors as well as non-sandfly species obtained from GenBank. Sequences were aligned using ClustalX [46] and manually refined using BioEdit sequence editing software [47]. Phylogenetic analysis was conducted on protein alignments using Tree Puzzle version 5.2 [48] incorporating the appropriate model of evolution defined by ProtTest [49]. Tree Puzzle constructs phylogenetic trees by maximum likelihood using quartet puzzling, automatically estimating internal branch node support (100,000 replications). Derived trees were visualised using TreeView [50].
T-cell epitope prediction
The TEPITOPE software package [51] that searches for promiscuous HLA-class II binding peptides and human T-cell epitopes was set at threshold of 4% and run with the 25 different HLA-DR alleles. The promiscuous epitopes were selected from the P. duboscqi protein sequences tested that were predicted to bind at least 50% of the MHC class II molecules.
SDS-PAGE
For P. duboscqi salivary glands, NuPAGE 10% Bis Tris gels (Invitrogen) were used. Gels were run with NuPAGE MES SDS running buffer (Invitrogen), according to the manufacturer's instructions. To estimate the molecular weight of the samples, SeeBlue™ markers from Invitrogen (myosin, BSA, glutamic dehydrogenase, alcohol dehydrogenase, carbonic anhydrase, myoglobin, lysozyme, aprotinin, and insulin, chain B) were used. The salivary gland homogenate was treated with equal parts of 2× SDS sample buffer (8% SDS in Tris-HCl buffer, 0.5 M, pH 6.8, 10% glycerol and 1% bromophenol blue dye). For aminoterminal sequencing of the salivary proteins, 35 homogenised pairs of salivary glands were electrophoresed and transferred to polyvinylidene difluoride (PVDF) membrane using NuPAGE transfer buffer, 10% methanol as the transfer buffer on a Blot-Module for the XCell II Mini-Cell (Invitrogen). The PVDF membrane was charged in 100% methanol for 30 seconds prior to the transfer on a Blot-Module for the XCell II Mini-Cell (Invitrogen). Upon transfer, the membrane was washed three times for five minutes with ultrapure water, and then treated for five minutes with a staining solution containing 0.025% Coomasie brilliant blue and 40% methanol in the absence of acetic acid. The membrane was partially destained in a solution of 50% methanol for ten minutes, then rinsed several times with ultrapure water. The membrane was allowed to dry before the stained bands were cut from the membrane and subjected to Edman degradation using a Procise sequencer (Perkin-Elmer Corp.)
To determine the cDNA sequences corresponding to the aa sequence obtained by Edman degradation, we used a search program that checked these aa sequences against the three possible protein translations of each cDNA sequence obtained in the DNA sequencing project. A more detailed account of this program is found elsewhere [14].
Authors' contributions
HK constructed salivary gland cDNA library, carried out sequencing and proteome analysis and drafting of the manuscript; JMA carried out bioinformatic and comparative analysis, participated in sequence alignment and drafting of the manuscript; SK participated in design and coordination of the study, carried out sand fly identification in the filed and drafting of the manuscript; FO carried out phylogenetic analysis, sequence alignment and epitope analysis; PGL carried out entomological studies and drafting of the manuscript; VM carried out the sequence of sand fly transcripts; CSS coordinated entomological studies and identification of field specimens; SS carried out entomological studies, capture and identification of field specimens; IS carried out entomological studies, capture and identification of field specimens; MG carried out Edman-degradation of salivary proteins; LS constructed sand fly salivary gland cDNA library; PV participated in study design and coordination of study; SD coordinated entomological studies; JGV conceived the study and participated in its design coordination and drafting of the manuscript. All authors read and approved the final manuscript.
Acknowledgements
We want to thank Dr. Jose' M.C. Ribeiro for critical evaluation of this work and revision of the manuscript, Dr. Robert Gwadz for continuous support, Dr. Richard Sakai to help in the logistics for our studies in Mali and Nancy Shulman for editorial assistance. This project was funded by Grant 1Z01AI000932-04 to JGV from the Division of Intramural Research, National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health.
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Trident, Anaverde, Movie Gallery, Tribune, Chemtura, Corus: Bankruptcy
Trident Resources Corp. brought a nine-month reorganization to fruition yesterday when the bankruptcy judge signed a confirmation order approving the Chapter 11 plan for the independent natural gas production and development company. The plan was unopposed.
The plan, funded in part by a backstopped equity rights offering up to $255 million, allows for senior and junior secured lenders to own the new stock. Originally, the rights offering was $200 million.
Under the 2006 credit agreement, lenders will receive 40 percent of the stock plus the right to purchase an additional 45 percent in the rights offering, on account of their $422 million in claims.
Creditors with $137 million in claims under the 2007 credit agreement can purchase 15 percent of the stock in the rights offering.
Unsecured creditors and existing stockholders receive nothing under the plan.
The rights offering gives the reorganized company an implied equity value of $425 million, according to the disclosure statement. The implied enterprise value is $772 million.
There will be $380 million in debt on emergence from bankruptcy, compared with funded debt of $1.2 billion before bankruptcy.
For implementation of the U.S. reorganization, a companion restructuring of Canadian affiliates must be approved by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Calgary under the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act.
The companies filed for reorganization in September in the U.S. and Canada. Trident focuses on coal-bed methane.
The case is In re Trident Resources Corp., 09-13150, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of Delaware (Wilmington).
Updates
Fifth Third May Pursue Ahmed Zayat on Debt Guarantee
Although Zayat Stables LLC may have the upper hand in bankruptcy court over Fifth Third Bank, the secured lender won a victory in U.S. district court over the stables’ owner, Ahmed Zayat.
When the stables filed under Chapter 11 in February in New Jersey, the Cincinnati-based bank had a lawsuit already pending in U.S. district court in Lexington, Kentucky, attempting to recover a $34.5 million loan. In the same suit, the bank also was attempting to collect the debt from Ahmed Zayat on his guarantee.
The district judge in Kentucky stayed the lawsuit as a result of the bankruptcy filing by the stables. The bank responded by filing a motion to lift the stay so it could continue suing Ahmed Zayat on his guarantee.
In a ruling on June 14, the district judge in Kentucky allowed the bank to continue suing Ahmed Zayat on the guarantee. He argued unsuccessfully that the guarantee suit should remain in limbo until there’s resolution of a suit the stables filed in bankruptcy court accusing Fifth Third of predatory lending practices.
The district judge in Kentucky invited Ahmed Zayat to file counterclaims in her court alleging the same allegedly predatory practices.
It remains to be seen whether the stables will attempt to have the New Jersey bankruptcy judge stop the district court suit.
Creditors are voting on the stables’ reorganization plan in advance of a July 15 confirmation hearing. The plan calls for paying creditors in full over time, allowing Ahmed Zayat to retain ownership. Because the bank isn’t to be paid under the bankruptcy plan in accordance with the pre-bankruptcy loan agreement, it remains to be seen whether confirming the plan and paying the bank in full over time will result in a voluntary or involuntary halt of the lawsuit on Ahmed Zayat’s personal guarantee.
The plan calls for bringing the bank’s interest current when the plan becomes effective. The principal owing on the loan will be paid in installments through the end of 2014.
Unsecured creditors, with $1.2 million in claims, are to be paid in full without interest over two years.
Amend Zayat said he personally invested $40 million in the business.
The stables, based in Hackensack, New Jersey, filed under Chapter 11 in February in Newark. At the time, the bank was seeking the appointment of a receiver.
The stables have more than 200 horses, representing collateral for bank. The horses are valued at $37 million, according an appraisal cited in a court paper. Revenue in 2009 was $21 million.
The suit on the guarantee is Fifth Third Bank v. Zayat Stables LLC, 09-401, U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Kentucky (Lexington). The Chapter 11 case is In re Zayat Stables LLC, 10-13130, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of New Jersey (Newark).
RPM, Asbestos Claimants Face August Trial Over Lawsuits
Asbestos claimants agreed with RPM International Inc. to hold a trial on Aug. 9 to decide whether the bankruptcy court will continue to enjoin lawsuits against RPM and affiliates that aren’t in Chapter 11.
Two of RMP’s non-operating subsidiaries, Specialty Products Holding Corp. and Bondex International Inc., filed under Chapter 11 on May 31 and immediately asked the bankruptcy judge to stop suits against the non-bankrupt affiliates which are claimed not to be directly liable on asbestos claims.
The judge granted a temporary injunction and was to hold a hearing yesterday for continuation of the halt against suits. Rather than fight yesterday, the parties decided to schedule pre-trial discovery and arrange for resolution of the dispute at the Aug. 9 hearing. In the meantime, the halt will continue on suits against the entire family of companies.
Asbestos claimants will file their briefs on July 16. The companies will submit their papers on July 29.
Specialty Products and Bondex sought Chapter 11 relief to deal with 10,000 asbestos claims. The companies are aiming for a resolution to the reorganization where the non-bankrupt affiliates may make a contribution to an asbestos claimants’ fund, allowing a Chapter 11 plan to absolve the entire family of companies from liability on personal-injury claims.
Non-bankrupt subsidiaries of Specialty Product generate about $330 million in annual revenue. Bondex, which is no longer operating, is a Specialty Products subsidiary that is chiefly responsible for asbestos claims from a company acquired in 1966 named Reardon Co.
RPM, based in Medina, Ohio, had consolidated assets of $3.34 billion and liabilities of $2.13 billion as of Feb. 28. The Specialty Products and Bondex Chapter 11 petitions both said assets and debt exceed $100 million.
The case is In re Specialty Products Holding Corp., 10- 11780, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of Delaware (Wilmington).
Anaverde, California Developer, Wins Approval of Plan
Anaverde LLC, the developer of a master-planned community in Palmdale, California, secured approval of the Chapter 11 plan when the bankruptcy judge in Delaware signed a confirmation order on June 14.
The plan allows existing owners to buy back the business. There were no competing bids submitted at auction.
The plan gives the secured lender, Cadim Note Inc., approximately $11.8 million plus 25 percent of proceeds above $26 million if the property is resold within two years. The lender is owed $63.9 million.
The disclosure statement said that the lender could recover up to 16.4 percent. The lender carved out $350,000 cash for unsecured creditors.
San Francisco-based Anaverde discovered a spur of the San Andreas Fault under the property before the Chapter 11 filing in January. The project, the second phase of a development, was to have 3,500 lots. The property was partially graded. No homes were constructed.
Papers together with the petition listed the assets for $25.2 million against debt totaling $65.1 million.
The case is In re Anaverde LLC, 10-10113, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, District of Delaware (Wilmington).
Movie Gallery Selling DVDs, Video Games for $8 Million
Movie Gallery Inc., which is closing its last 1,028 movie- rental stores, is selling the inventory at the distribution center in Nashville, Tennessee, in two sales totaling over $8 million.
VPD IV Inc. is under contract to buy some 1.2 million Blu- ray and DVD movies for $5.06 million. COKeM International Ltd. will take the video games and related accessories for $3.03 million.
In both cases, Movie Gallery will accept higher offers, although without holding a formal auction. The hearing for approval of the sales is set for June 24.
Movie Gallery had approximately 2,600 stores in operation on filing under Chapter 11 again in February. The new filing came less than two years after the previous bankruptcy reorganization. When the new case began, debt included $100 million on a secured revolving credit, $394 million on a first- lien facility, and $146 million in claims held by second-lien creditors.
Great American Group Inc. won the right to close the last 1,028 stores by guaranteeing $74.2 million.
Movie Gallery operates under the names Movie Gallery, Hollywood Video, and Game Crazy. It had 3,490 stores before the first bankruptcy, which.
Chemtura Reports $2 Million Net Profit in May
Specialty chemical maker Chemtura Corp. reported a $3 million operating profit and a $2 million net profit in May on net sales of $209 million.
Chemtura said in May it planned to file a reorganization plan by tomorrow that would pay creditors nearly in full and might include a distribution for shareholders. In court yesterday, the company said it hopes to have environmental claims settled with state authorities by mid-July. For Bloomberg coverage on the hearing, click here.
The creditors’ committee is suing Chemtura’s lenders based on a theory that a security interest given within three months of bankruptcy on inventory and other assets was a preference the bankruptcy judge can void. In addition, the committee wants to recover $6 million in payments that were also preferences. The committee claims the banks’ collateral only covers a $46.1 million loan, not loans totaling $139.2 million.).
New Filing
Corus Bankshares Files, Bank Taken Over in September
Corus Bankshares Inc., the holding company whose bank was taken over by regulators in September, filed a Chapter 11 petition yesterday in Chicago, listing assets of $314.1 million against debt totaling $532.9 million.
Corus said in March that Chapter 11 or liquidation were among the alternatives under consideration. Corus said at the time that it expects to have tax refund claims totaling $260 million. Corus promised to oppose efforts by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to receive cash for the bank subsidiary’s portion of the tax refunds.
Corus contended that the FDIC is in the same position as other unsecured creditors of the holding company and that the tax refund should be shared. Illinois (Chicago).
Watch List
Retailer Loehmann’s Hires Three Financial Advisers
Loehmann’s Inc., a discount retailer with more than 60 stores, hired three financial advisory firms with experience in turnarounds and bankruptcy reorganizations. The firms are AlixPartners LLP, Perella Weinberg Partners and Clear Thinking Group LLC, according to people with knowledge of the situation.
To read Bloomberg coverage, click here.
The Bronx, New York-based company is owned indirectly by Istithmar PJSC, an investment firm owned by the government of Dubai.
Loehmann’s emerged from a 14-month Chapter 11 reorganization with a confirmed plan in September 2000. At the time, it operated 44 stores in 17 states.
Statistics
May Claim Trades Miss April Record, SecondMarket Says
Claim trades reported to the country’s bankruptcy courts in May totaled $3.3 billion in face amount, short of the record $3.65 billion in April, according to SecondMarket Inc. which began keeping records in January 2008.
With $3 billion of traded claims, Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. was responsible for the bulk of activity. The Lehman transfers were 237 in number, more than twice the second most actively traded, Smurfit-Stone Container Corp., with 130 trades.
In dollar amount, old General Motors Corp. was in second place with $141.7 million of traded claims.
Reported claim trades exceeded $3 billion in three months over the last year, says SecondMarket, which calls itself the largest secondary market for illiquid assets.
In May claims were traded in 47 separate bankruptcy cases, compared with 62 cases in April.
Briefly Noted
Visteon, Texas Rangers Hearings End Without Decisions
Yesterday’s hearings in the reorganizations of auto-parts maker Visteon Corp. and the Texas Rangers professional baseball team ended without rulings from the judges. In the Visteon case, the judge said he would issue a ruling at a hearing tomorrow on whether he will approve the disclosure statement. The Rangers judge is deciding if he can proceed to a confirmation hearing in July and approve the reorganization plan without a vote of creditors.
For a discussion of the issues in both the Visteon and Rangers cases, click here to see the first two items in yesterday’s Bloomberg bankruptcy report.
Strauss Auto Has Vote Exclusivity Extended to July 26
Because Strauss Discount Auto won’t have an approved Chapter 11 plan at the previously scheduled June 21 confirmation hearing, the auto-parts retailer sought and received an extension until July 26 of the exclusive right to solicit acceptances on a reorganization plan.
The company said it needs to change the plan that promised to pay 65 percent to unsecured creditors with claims aggregating $18.7 million. If the group doesn’t recover at least 45 percent, creditors would have ended up owning all the new stock. If the 45 percent threshold is met, Chief Executive Officer Glenn Langsberg was to have an option to buy all the stock for $300,000.
A suit is pending against the former Japanese owner, Autobacs Seven Co. Autobacs has a $44 million claim that creditors are hoping to have disallowed or subordinated.
Strauss Auto is in Chapter 11 a third time. The stores are in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The new petition in February 2009 listed assets of $75 million against debt totaling $72 million. Debt initially was shown to include $44 million listed as owing to the parent under loan agreements, $9.6 million owing to suppliers, and $12 million in debt owing to landlords and other unsecured creditors.
There were 86 stores and no secured debt when the).
Bondholders Seek to Block Tribune Plan at the FCC
Newspaper publisher Tribune Co. shouldn’t be allowed to transfer broadcast licenses, bondholders told the Federal Communications Commission. Creditors are voting on Tribune’s reorganization plan in anticipation of an Aug. 16 confirmation hearing. To read Bloomberg coverage, click here.
The plan, filed in April, would implement a settlement negotiated with some creditors. It is opposed by holders of $3.6 billion in pre-bankruptcy secured debt who announced their opposition even before the settlement was formally disclosed. To read about the plan, the proposed settlement, and the parties’ arguments, click here for the April 13 Bloomberg bankruptcy report.).
Spheris Has Exclusive Plan Rights Until September 1
Spheris Inc., a transcriber of medical dictation for doctors and hospitals, was granted its request and received an extension of the exclusive right to propose a reorganization plan until Sept. 1. The hearing for approval of the disclosure statement explaining the liquidating Chapter 11 plan is set for July 13. The papers don’t say how much creditors can expect.
Now formally named SP Wind Down Inc., Spheris sold the business for $98.83 million cash and a note that it sold for $13.77 million. At Jan. 31, secured lenders were owed $75.6 million. Unsecured claims consist largely of $125 million owing on subordinated notes.).
Pennsylvania’s Tyrone Hospital Confirms Reorganization Plan
Tyrone Hospital from Blair County, Pennsylvania, is set to emerge from reorganization after almost four years. It filed under Chapter 11 in September 2006 and will stay in business with a Chapter 11 plan confirmed May 10. Unsecured creditors are being paid $1 million.
The case is In re Tyrone Hospital, 06-70759, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, Western District of Pennsylvania (Johnstown).
Daily Podcast
Texas Rangers, Visteon, Extended Stay: Audio
Texas Rangers, Visteon Corp., Extended Stay Inc., and Medical Staffing Network Holdings Inc. are the bankruptcy cases covered in the latest bankruptcy podcast on the Bloomberg terminal and Bloomberglaw.com.
To listen, click here.
Advance Sheets
SEC Receivership May Block Involuntary Bankruptcy
In a receivership initiated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, a federal court may properly prohibit creditors from filing an involuntary bankruptcy petition, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals in Manhattan ruled yesterday.
The case involved the receivership of Wextrust Capital LLC, which was alleged to be a $255 million Ponzi scheme. Although prohibiting an involuntary bankruptcy filing by creditors, the U.S. district judge said the SEC receiver could put Wextrust in Chapter 11. If he did, the receiver would continue in control in the Chapter 11 case.
The 2nd Circuit in New York ruled that an injunction prohibiting bankruptcy should be “sparsely exercised.” Still, creditors, according to the appeals court, have no “absolute right” to file a bankruptcy petition. In that regard, the 2nd Circuit lined up with the Courts of Appeal for the 6th and 9th Circuits.
The opinion, written by Circuit Judge Rosemary S. Pooler, said that “the receivership accomplishes what bankruptcy would.”
Although the receiver would continue in control akin to a trustee or debtor-in-possession were the receiver to decide on using Chapter 11, the appeals court said that creditors could attempt to oust the receiver once bankruptcy began.
The case is International Ad-Hoc Committee of Wextrust Creditors v. Securities and Exchange Commission, 09-0234, U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals (Manhattan).
Bankruptcy Trustee’s Suit Fails Against Bank Officers
When a bank is taken over by regulators, only the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. has the right to sue bank officers and directors, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta ruled on June 14. The appeals court also established standards that must be met before a suit against holding company officers can survive.
The bankruptcy trustee for a bank holding company filed a lawsuit against the officers and directors of both the bank and the holding company. The circuit court sustained a motion to dismiss the entire complaint.
With regard to the suit against bank officers, the 11th Circuit interpreted the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act of 1989 to mean that only the FDIC has the right to sue for mismanagement that harmed the bank.
To reach the result, the circuit court said that the holding company bankruptcy trustee was suing as the shareholder of the bank. As a shareholder, the trustee’s only remedy was to file a so-called derivative suit. In turn, FIRREA bestows the FDIC with the sole right to bring derivative suits. A derivative suit is one where someone sues on behalf of the company itself, in substance asserting claims that belong to the company.
The 11th Circuit also dismissed the suit against holding company officers even though the complaint said they allowed the bank to engage in “unsound practices.” The allegations by themselves were not enough to sustain a complaint, the appeals court ruled.
The court said that the complaint might have survived had the trustee alleged, for instance, that the holding company officers failed to tell the board about mismanagement at the bank.
The case is Lubin v. Skow, 10-01155, 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (Atlanta)
To contact the reporter on this story: Bill Rochelle in New York at [email protected].
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[ 002 ] When Elisa had performed her part, and brought her touching story to a close, Queen Filomena, a damsel no less stately than fair of person, and of a surpassingly sweet and smiling mien, having composed herself to speak, thus began:
“ Our engagements with Dioneo shall be faithfully observed; wherefore, as he and I alone remain to complete the day's narration, I will tell my story first, and he shall have the grace he craved, and be the last to speak. ” After which prelude she thus began her story:
[ 003 ] 'Tis a proverb current among the vulgar that the deceived has the better of the deceiver; a proverb which, were it not exemplified by events, might hardly in any manner be justified. Wherefore, while adhering to our theme, I am minded at the same time, dearest ladies, to shew you that there is truth in this proverb; the proof whereof should be none the less welcome to you that it may put you on your guard against deceivers.
[ 004 ] Know then that certain very great merchants of Italy, being met, as merchants use, for divers reasons proper to each, at a hostelry in Paris, and having one evening jovially supped together, fell a talking of divers matters, and so, passing from one topic to another, they came at last to discuss the ladies whom they had left at home, [ 005 ] and one jocosely said: “ I cannot answer for my wife; but for myself I own, that, whenever a girl that is to my mind comes in my way, I give the go-by to the love that I bear my wife, and take my pleasure of the new-comer to the best of my power. ” [ 006 ] “ And so do I, ” said another, “ because I know that, whether I suspect her or no, my wife tries her fortune, and so 'tis do as you are done by; the ass and the wall are quits. ” [ 007 ] A third added his testimony to the same effect; and in short all seemed to concur in the opinion that the ladies they had left behind them were not likely to neglect their opportunities, [ 008 ] when one, a Genoese, Bernabò Lomellin by name, dissociated himself from the rest, affirming that by especial grace of God he was blessed with a wife who was, perhaps, the most perfect paragon to be found in Italy of all the virtues proper to a lady, ay, and in great measure, to a knight or squire; inasmuch as she was fair, still quite young, handy, hardy, and clever beyond all other women in embroidery work and all other forms of lady's handicraft. [ 009 ] Moreover so well-mannered, discreet and sensible was she that she was as fit to wait at a lord's table as any squire or manservant or such like, the best and most adroit that could be found. [ 010 ] To which encomium he added that she knew how to manage a horse, fly a hawk, read, write and cast up accounts better than as if she were a merchant; and after much more in the same strain of commendation he came at length to the topic of their conversation, asseverating with an oath that 'twas not possible to find a woman more honest, more chaste than she: nay, he verily believed that, if he remained from home for ten years, or indeed for the rest of his days, she would never think of any of these casual amours with any other man.
[ 011 ] Among the merchants who thus gossiped was a young man, Ambrogiuolo da Piacenza by name, who, when Bernabò thus concluded his eulogy of his wife, broke out into a mighty laugh, and asked him with a leer, whether he of all men had this privilege by special patent of the Emperor. [ 012 ] Bernabò replied, somewhat angrily, that 'twas a boon conferred upon him by God, who was rather more powerful than the Emperor. [ 013 ] To which Ambrogiuolo rejoined: “ I make no doubt, Bernabò, that thou believest that what thou sayst is true; but, methinks, thou hast been but a careless observer of the nature of things; otherwise, I do not take thee to be of so gross understanding but that thou must have discerned therein reasons for speaking more judiciously of this matter. [ 014 ] And that thou mayst not think that we, who have spoken with much freedom about our wives, deem them to be of another nature and mould than thine, but mayst know that we have but uttered what common sense dictates, I am minded to go a little further into this matter with thee. [ 015 ] I have always understood, that of all mortal beings created by God man is the most noble, and next after him woman: man, then, being, as is universally believed, and is indeed apparent by his works, more perfect than woman, must without doubt be endowed with more firmness and constancy, women being one and all more mobile, for reasons not a few and founded in nature, which I might adduce, but mean for the present to pass over. [ 016 ] And yet, for all his greater firmness, man cannot withstand--I do not say a woman's supplications, but--the mere lust of the eye which she unwittingly excites, and that in such sort that he will do all that is in his power to induce her to pleasure him, not once, perhaps, in the course of a month, but a thousand times a day. How, then, shouldst thou expect a woman, mobile by nature, to resist the supplications, the flatteries, the gifts, and all the other modes of attack that an accomplished seducer will employ? Thou thinkest that she may hold out! [ 017 ] Nay verily, affirm it as thou mayst, I doubt thou dost not really so think. Thou dost not deny that thy wife is a woman, a creature of flesh and blood like the rest; and if so, she must have the same cravings, the same natural propensities as they, and no more force to withstand them; wherefore 'tis at least possible, that, however honest she be, she will do as others do; and nought that is possible admits such peremptory denial or affirmation of its contrary as this of thine. ”
[ 018 ] Whereto Bernabò returned: “ I am a merchant and no philosopher, and I will give thee a merchant's answer. I acknowledge that what thou sayst is true of vain and foolish women who have no modesty, but such as are discreet are so sensitive in regard of their honour that they become better able to preserve it than men, who have no such solicitude; and my wife is one of this sort. ” [ 019 ] “ Doubtless, ” observed Ambrogiuolo, “ few would be found to indulge in these casual amours, if every time they did so a horn grew out on the brow to attest the fact; but not only does no horn make its appearance but not so much as a trace or vestige of a horn, so only they be but prudent; and the shame and dishonour consist only in the discovery: wherefore, if they can do it secretly, they do it, or are fools to refrain. [ 020 ] Hold it for certain that she alone is chaste who either had never suit made to her, or, suing herself, was repulsed. And albeit I know that for reasons true and founded in nature this must needs be, yet I should not speak so positively thereof as I do, had I not many a time with many a woman verified it by experience. And I assure thee that, had I but access to this most saintly wife of thine, I should confidently expect very soon to have the same success with her as with others. ” [ 021 ] Then Bernabò angrily: “ 'Twere long and tedious to continue this discussion. I should have my say, and thou thine, and in the end 'twould come to nothing. But, as thou sayst that they are all so compliant, and that thou art so accomplished a seducer, I give thee this pledge of the honour of my wife: I consent to forfeit my head, if thou shouldst succeed in bringing her to pleasure thee in such a sort; and shouldst thou fail, thou shalt forfeit to me no more than one thousand florins of gold. ”
[ 022 ] Elated by this unexpected offer, Ambrogiuolo replied: “ I know not what I should do with thy blood, Bernabò, if I won the wager; but, if thou wouldst have proof of what I have told thee, lay five thousand florins of gold, which must be worth less to thee than thy head, against a thousand of mine, and, whereas thou makest no stipulation as to time, I will bind myself to go to Genoa, and within three months from my departure hence to have had my pleasure of thy wife, and in witness thereof to bring back with me, of the things which she prizes most dearly, evidence of her compliance so weighty and conclusive that thou thyself shalt admit the fact; nor do I require ought of thee but that thou pledge thy faith neither to come to Genoa nor to write word to her of this matter during the said three months. ” [ 023 ] Bernabò professed himself well content; and though the rest of the company, seeing that the compact might well have very evil consequences, did all that they could to frustrate it, yet the two men were now so heated that, against the will of the others, they set it down fairly in writing, and signed it each with his own hand. [ 024 ] This done, Ambrogiuolo, leaving Bernabò at Paris, posted with all speed for Genoa. Arrived there, he set to work with great caution; and having found out the quarter in which the lady resided, he learned in the course of a few days enough about her habits of life and her character to know that what Bernabò had told him was rather less than the truth. So, recognising that his enterprise was hopeless, he cast about for some device whereby he might cover his defeat; [ 025 ] and having got speech of a poor woman, who was much in the lady's house, as also in her favour, he bribed her (other means failing) to convey him in a chest, which he had had made for the purpose, not only into the house but into the bedroom of the lady, whom the good woman, following Bernabò's instructions, induced to take charge of it for some days, during which, she said, she would be away.
[ 026 ] So the lady suffered the chest to remain in the room; and when the night was so far spent that Bernabò thought she must be asleep, he opened it with some tools with which he had provided himself, and stole softly out. There was a light in the room, so that he was able to form an idea of its situation, to take note of the pictures and everything else of consequence that it contained, and to commit the whole to memory. [ 027 ] This done, he approached the bed; and observing that the lady, and a little girl that was with her, were fast asleep, he gently uncovered her, and saw that nude she was not a whit less lovely than when dressed: he looked about for some mark that might serve him as evidence that he had seen her in this state, but found nothing except a mole, which she had under the left breast, and which was fringed with a few fair hairs that shone like gold. So beautiful was she that he was tempted at the hazard of his life to take his place by her side in the bed; [ 028 ] but, remembering what he had heard of her inflexible obduracy in such affairs, he did not venture; but quietly replaced the bedclothes; and having passed the best part of the night very much at his ease in her room, he took from one of the lady's boxes a purse, a gown, a ring and a girdle, and with these tokens returned to the chest, and locked himself in as before. In this manner he passed two nights, nor did the lady in the least suspect his presence. [ 029 ] On the third day the good woman came by preconcert to fetch her chest, and took it back to the place whence she had brought it. So Ambrogiuolo got out, paid her the stipulated sum, and hied him back with all speed to Paris, where he arrived within the appointed time. [ 030 ] Then, in presence of the merchants who were witnesses of his altercation with Bernabò, and the wager to which it had given occasion, he told Bernabò that he had won the bet, having done what he had boasted that he would do; and in proof thereof he first of all described the appearance of the room and the pictures, and then displayed the articles belonging to the lady which he had brought away with him, averring that she had given them to him. [ 031 ] Bernabò acknowledged the accuracy of his description of the room, and that the articles did really belong to his wife, but objected that Ambrogiuolo might have learned characteristic features of the room from one of the servants, and have come by the things in a similar way, and therefore, unless he had something more to say, he could not justly claim to have won the bet. [ 032 ] “ Verily, ” rejoined Ambrogiuolo, “ this should suffice; but, as thou requirest that I say somewhat further, I will satisfy thee. I say, then, that Madam Zinevra, thy wife, has under her left breast a mole of some size, around which are, perhaps, six hairs of a golden hue. ” [ 033 ] As Bernabò heard this, it was as if a knife pierced his heart, so poignant was his suffering; and, though no word escaped him, the complete alteration of his mien bore unmistakable witness to the truth of Ambrogiuolo's words. After a while he said: “ Gentlemen, 'tis even as Ambrogiuolo says; he has won the bet; he has but to come when he will, and he shall be paid. ” [ 034 ] And so the very next day Ambrogiuolo was paid in full, and Bernabò, intent on wreaking vengeance on his wife, left Paris and set his face towards Genoa. He had no mind, however, to go home, and accordingly halted at an estate which he had some twenty miles from the city, whither he sent forward a servant, in whom he reposed much trust, with two horses and a letter advising the lady of his return, and bidding her come out to meet him. At the same time he gave the servant secret instructions to choose some convenient place, and ruthlessly put the lady to death, and so return to him. [ 035 ] On his arrival at Genoa the servant delivered his message and the letter to the lady, who received him with great cheer, and next morning got on horseback and set forth with him for her husband's estate. [ 036 ] So they rode on, talking of divers matters, until they came to a deep gorge, very lonely, and shut in by high rocks and trees. The servant, deeming this just the place in which he might without risk of discovery fulfil his lord's behest, whipped out a knife, and seizing the lady by the arm, said: “ Madam, commend your soul to God, for here must end at once your journey and your life. ” [ 037 ] Terror-stricken by what she saw and heard, the lady cried out: “ Mercy for God's sake; before thou slay me, tell me at least wherein I have wronged thee, that thou art thus minded to put me to death. ” [ 038 ] “ Madam, ” said the servant, “ me you have in no wise wronged; but your husband--how you may have wronged him I know not--charged me shew you no mercy, but to slay you on this journey, and threatened to have me hanged by the neck, should I not do so. You know well how bound I am to him, and that I may not disobey any of his commands: God knows I pity you, but yet I can no otherwise. ” [ 039 ] Whereat the lady burst into tears, saying: “ Mercy for God's sake; make not thyself the murderer of one that has done thee no wrong, at the behest of another. The all-seeing God knows that I never did aught to merit such requital at my husband's hands. [ 040 ] But enough of this for the present: there is a way in which thou canst serve at once God and thy master and myself, if thou wilt do as I bid thee: take, then, these clothes of mine and give me in exchange just thy doublet and a hood; and carry the clothes with thee to my lord and thine, and tell him that thou hast slain me; and I swear to thee by the life which I shall have received at thy hands, that I will get me gone, and there abide whence news of me shall never reach either him or thee or these parts. ” [ 041 ] The servant, being loath to put her to death, soon yielded to pity; and so he took her clothes, allowing her to retain a little money that she had, and gave her one of his worser doublets and a hood; then, praying her to depart the country, he left her afoot in the gorge, and returned to his master, whom he gave to understand that he had not only carried out his orders but had left the lady's body a prey to wolves. Bernabò after a while returned to Genoa, where, the supposed murder being bruited abroad, he was severely censured.
[ 042 ] Alone and disconsolate, the lady, as night fell, disguised herself as best she could, and hied her to a neighbouring village, where, having procured what was needful from an old woman, she shortened the doublet and fitted it to her figure, converted her chemise into a pair of breeches, cut her hair close, and, in short, completely disguised herself as a sailor. She then made her way to the coast, where by chance she encountered a Catalan gentleman, by name Segner Encararch, who had landed from one of his ships, which lay in the offing, to recreate himself at Alba, where there was a fountain. [ 043 ] So she made overture to him of her services, was engaged and taken aboard the ship, assuming the name Sicurano da Finale. The gentleman put her in better trim as to clothes, and found her so apt and handy at service that he was exceeding well pleased with her.
[ 044 ] Not long afterwards the Catalan sailed one of his carracks to Alexandria. He took with him some peregrine falcons, which he presented to the Soldan, who feasted him once or twice; and noting with approbation the behaviour of Sicurano, who always attended his master, he craved him of the Catalan, which request the Catalan reluctantly granted. [ 045 ] Sicurano proved so apt for his new service that he was soon as high in grace and favour with the Soldan as he had been with the Catalan. Wherefore, when the time of year came at which there was wont to be held at Acre, then under the Soldan's sway, a great fair, much frequented by merchants, Christian and Saracen alike, and to which, for the security of the merchants and their goods, the Soldan always sent one of his great officers of state with other officers and a guard to attend upon them, [ 046 ] he determined to send Sicurano, who by this time knew the language very well. [ 047 ] So Sicurano was sent to Acre as governor and captain of the guard for the protection of the merchants and merchandise. Arrived there, he bestirred himself with great zeal in all matters appertaining to his office; and as he went his rounds of inspection, he espied among the merchants not a few from Italy, Sicilians, Pisans, Genoese, Venetians, and so forth, with whom he consorted the more readily because they reminded him of his native land. [ 048 ] And so it befell that, alighting once at a shop belonging to some Venetian merchants, he saw there among other trinkets a purse and a girdle, which he forthwith recognised as having once been his own. Concealing his surprise, he blandly asked whose they were, and if they were for sale. [ 049 ] He was answered by Ambrogiuolo da Piacenza, who had come thither with much merchandise aboard a Venetian ship, and hearing that the captain of the guard was asking about the ownership of the purse and girdle, came forward, and said with a smile: “ The things are mine, Sir, and I am not disposed to sell them, but, if they take your fancy, I will gladly give them to you. ” [ 050 ] Observing the smile, Sicurano misdoubted that something had escaped him by which Ambrogiuolo had recognised him; but he answered with a composed air: “ Thou dost smile, perchance, to see me, a soldier, come asking about this woman's gear? ” [ 051 ] “ Not so, Sir, ” returned Ambrogiuolo; “ I smile to think of the manner in which I came by it. ” [ 052 ] “ And pray, ” said Sicurano, “ if thou hast no reason to conceal it, tell me, in God's name, how thou didst come by the things. ” [ 053 ] “ Why, Sir, ” said Ambrogiuolo, “ they were given me by a Genoese lady, with whom I once spent a night, Madam Zinevra by name, wife of Bernabò Lomellin, who prayed me to keep them as a token of her love. [ 054 ] I smiled just now to think of the folly of Bernabò, who was so mad as to stake five thousand florins of gold against my thousand that I could not bring his wife to surrender to me; which I did. I won the bet; and he, who should rather have been punished for his insensate folly, than she for doing what all women do, had her put to death, as I afterwards gathered, on his way back from Paris to Genoa. ”
[ 055 ] Ambrogiuolo had not done speaking before Sicurano had discerned in him the evident cause of her husband's animosity against her, and all her woe, and had made up her mind that he should not escape with impunity. [ 056 ] She therefore feigned to be much interested by this story, consorted frequently and very familiarly with Ambrogiuolo, and insidiously captured his confidence, insomuch that at her suggestion, when the fair was done, he, taking with him all his wares, accompanied her to Alexandria, where she provided him with a shop, and put no little of her own money in his hands; so that he, finding it very profitable, was glad enough to stay. [ 057 ] Anxious to make her innocence manifest to Bernabò, Sicurano did not rest until, with the help of some great Genoese merchants that were in Alexandria, she had devised an expedient to draw him thither. Her plan succeeded; Bernabò arrived; and, as he was now very poor, she privily arranged that he should be entertained by one of her friends until occasion should serve to carry out her design. [ 058 ] She had already induced Ambrogiuolo to tell his story to the Soldan, and the Soldan to interest himself in the matter. So Bernabò being come, and further delay inexpedient, she seized her opportunity, and persuaded the Soldan to cite Ambrogiuolo and Bernabò before him, that in Bernabò's presence Ambrogiuolo might be examined of his boast touching Bernabò's wife, and the truth thereof, if not to be had from him by gentle means, be elicited by torture. [ 059 ] So the Soldan, having Ambrogiuolo and Bernabò before him, amid a great concourse of his people questioned Ambrogiuolo of the five thousand florins of gold that he had won from Bernabò, and sternly bade him tell the truth. Still more harsh was the aspect of Sicurano, in whom Ambrogiuolo had placed his chief reliance, but who now threatened him with the direst torments if the truth were not forthcoming. [ 060 ] Thus hard bested on this side and on that, and in a manner coerced, Ambrogiuolo, thinking he had but to refund, in presence of Bernabò and many others accurately recounted the affair as it had happened. [ 061 ] When he had done, Sicurano, as minister of the Soldan for the time being, turned to Bernabò and said: “ And thy wife, thus falsely accused, what treatment did she meet with at thy hands? ” [ 062 ] “ Mortified, ” said Bernabò, “ by the loss of my money, and the dishonour which I deemed to have been done me by my wife, I was so overcome by wrath that I had her put to death by one of my servants, who brought me word that her corpse had been instantly devoured by a pack of wolves. ”
[ 063 ] Albeit the Soldan had heard and understood all that had passed, yet he did not as yet apprehend the object for which Sicurano had pursued the investigation. Wherefore Sicurano thus addressed him: [ 064 ] “ My lord, what cause this good lady has to boast of her lover and her husband you have now abundant means of judging; seeing that the lover at one and the same time despoils her of her honour, blasting her fair fame with slanderous accusations, and ruins her husband; who, more prompt to trust the falsehood of another than the verity of which his own long experience should have assured him, devotes her to death and the devouring wolves; and, moreover, such is the regard, such the love which both bear her that, though both tarry a long time with her, neither recognises her. [ 065 ] However, that you may know full well what chastisements they have severally deserved, I will now cause her to appear in your presence and theirs, provided you, of your especial grace, be pleased to punish the deceiver and pardon the deceived. ” [ 066 ] The Soldan, being minded in this matter to defer entirely to Sicurano, answered that he was well content, and bade produce the lady. Bernabò, who had firmly believed that she was dead, was lost in wonder; likewise Ambrogiuolo, who now divined his evil plight, and dreading something worse than the disbursement of money, knew not whether to expect the lady's advent with fear or with hope. His suspense was not of long duration; [ 067 ] for, as soon as the Soldan signified his assent, Sicurano, weeping, threw herself on her knees at his feet, and discarding the tones, as she would fain have divested herself of the outward semblance, of a man, said: [ 068 ] . “ My lord, that forlorn, hapless Zinevra am I, falsely and foully slandered by this traitor Ambrogiuolo, and by my cruel and unjust husband delivered over to his servant to slaughter and cast out as a prey to the wolves; for which cause I have now for six years been a wanderer on the face of the earth in the guise of a man. ” [ 069 ] Then rending her robes in front and baring her breast, she made it manifest to the Soldan and all others who were present, that she was indeed a woman; then turning to Ambrogiuolo she haughtily challenged him to say when she had ever lain with him, as he had boasted. Ambrogiuolo said never a word, for he now recognised her, and it was as if shame had reft from him the power of speech. [ 070 ] The Soldan, who had never doubted that Sicurano was a man, was so wonder-struck by what he saw and heard that at times he thought it must be all a dream. But, as wonder gave place to conviction of the truth, he extolled in the amplest terms the constancy and virtue and seemliness with which Zinevra, erstwhile Sicurano, had ordered her life. [ 071 ] He then directed that she should be most nobly arrayed in the garb of her sex and surrounded by a bevy of ladies. Mindful of her intercession, he granted to Bernabò the life which he had forfeited; and she, when Bernabò threw himself at her feet and wept and craved her pardon, raised him, unworthy though he was, to his feet and generously forgave him, and tenderly embraced him as her husband. [ 072 ] Ambrogiuolo the Soldan commanded to be bound to a stake, that his bare flesh, anointed with honey, might be exposed to the sun on one of the heights of the city, there to remain until it should fall to pieces of its own accord: and so 'twas done. [ 073 ] He then decreed that the lady should have the traitor's estate, which was worth not less but rather more than ten thousand doubloons; whereto he added, in jewels and vessels of gold and silver and in money, the equivalent of upwards of other ten thousand doubloons, having first entertained her and her husband with most magnificent and ceremonious cheer, accordant with the lady's worth. [ 074 ] Which done, he placed a ship at their disposal, and gave them leave to return to Genoa at their pleasure. So to Genoa they returned very rich and happy, and were received with all honour, especially Madam Zinevra, whom all the citizens had believed to be dead, and whom thenceforth, so long as she lived, they held of great consequence and excellency. [ 075 ] As for Ambrogiuolo, the very same day that he was bound to the stake, the honey with which his body was anointed attracted such swarms of flies, wasps and gadflies, wherewith that country abounds, that not only was his life sucked from him but his very bones were completely denuded of flesh; in which state, hanging by the sinews, they remained a long time undisturbed, for a sign and a testimony of his baseness to all that passed by. And so the deceived had the better of the deceiver.← PreviousNext → |
Received: (from strider) by igc4.igc.apc.org (8.6.12/Revision: 1.16 ) id CAA22219; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 02:46:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 02:46:22 -0800 Subject: BurmaNet News: December 18, 1995 #305 ------------------------ BurmaNet ------------------------ "Appropriate Information Technologies, Practical Strategies" ---------------------------------------------------------- The BurmaNet News: December 18, 1995 Issue #305 Noted in Passing: Japan now is in no mood and in no hurry to provide fresh aid to Myanmar. Any such move would not only spark international criticism but also encounter opposition from within the ruling coalition. - a Japanese senior Foreign Ministry official (see: JAPAN TIMES: YEN-LOAN TAP FOR MYANMAR MAY GO DRY) HEADLINES: ========== NATION: STUDENTS RILED BY BURMESE SUMMIT PRESENCE BKK POST: US SENATOR SEEKS TOUGHER SANCTIONS AGAINST BURMA HON. BILL RICHARDSON: SPPECH ON BURMA IN THE U.S. HOUSE TIMES OF INDIA: CHINA HAS CAPITALIZED ON MYANMAR'S ISOLATION JAPAN TIMES: YEN-LOAN TAP FOR MYANMAR MAY GO DRY NATION: JUNTA LEADER SAYS BURMA MOVING TOWARDS DEMOCRACY BANGKOK POST: SURPRISE BURMA CHAT ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NATION: STUDENTS RILED BY BURMESE SUMMIT PRESENCE December 15, 1995 THIRTY student representatives from Australia, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Nepal nd Thailand joined colleagues from Burma yesterday to protest the participation of the Burmese junta in the first meeting of leaders of all 10 Southeast Asian nations. The protest took place as Gen Than Shwe, chairman of the ruling State Law nd Order Restoration Council (Slorc) was an route to Bangkok from Rangoon for the historic event. Organizers ignored warnings, surveillance and attempts by the police to clamp down on demonstrations during the summit. Police blocked the protesters from reaching the Royal Orchid Sheraton Hotel here the Fifth Asean Summit was being held, by surrounded them at the Central Post Office until 12.30pm. The demonstrators were allowed to march on to the hotel, several hundred metres away, only after all the leaders had left for luncheon at another nearby hotel. Than Shwe arrived at the Sheraton in the afternoon _ under tight security provided by Thai police_ to find the students protesting his government's authoritarian rule. The protest attracted the attention of passers-by and worsened the area's normally bad traffic. The students issued a statement protesting the presence of Than Shwe and urging Asean members to support the Burmese pro-democracy movement. The statement said Than Shwe and his delegation did not represent Burma or the Burmese people because they came to power in a violent coup in which more than 3,000 people were killed. Slorc, the students said, is heavily involved in human rights violations and has introduced an economic system that only benefits the ruling class. Slorc leaders have shown no willingness to engage popular opposition leader Suu Kyi in political dialogue, they added, even though they released her in early July after nearly six years of house arrest. The demonstrators said Than Shwe's participation at the summit signified Asean's acceptance and endorsement of Slorc as the representative of the Burmese people, a status that was not legitimate. They urged Asean to introduce assistance projects which would benefit the Burmese populace in general, to directly observe and monitor human rights abuses in Burma, and to support and cooperate with pro-democracy movements in the country. They also called for a boycott of trade, investment and tourism in Burma until Slorc hands over power to democratic forces. "Asean's policy of constructive engagement has proven a complete failure," said a statement adopted at a forum on Wednesday at Thammasat University. The forum was attended by about 40 students from various countries. "Over 3,000 political prisoners remain in prison and human rights abuses continue on a regular basis. Asean must consider economic, arms and tourism sanctions against the [Burmese] dictatorship," the statement said. Suriyasai Katasila of the Students' Federation of Thailand later passed the statement on to Saroj Chavanaviraj, deputy permanent secretary of the Thai Foreign Ministry, expecting it to be delivered to the heads of government attending the summit. "Asean is wrong for inviting the Slorc to the summit," said Jaimy Parker of the National Union of Students of Australia. "Slorc is not the legitimate representative of the Burmese people, and Asean needs to reasess its policy of constructive engagement because it is not working. " They should take advice from Suu Kyi. She said now is not the right time for investment in Burma. We believe Asean should look toward following her lead and not include the Slorc in a legitimate forum like Asean." The peaceful protest was closely watched and by hundreds of uniformed and plain-clothes policemen. They tried to determine the protesters' identities, home countries and residences in Bangkok after being warned that more protests would take place today. When asked if the protesters feared a backlash from Thai authorities for disturbing the summit, Parker said he was afraid the Thai police would harass Burmese students who are seeking asylum in the country. He added that many of the students protesting yesterday hold Australian passports. In the western province of Ratchaburi, several hundred Burmese students planned to protest today in the "safe area" set up two years ago by the government to temporarily house the exiled students. The BANGKOK POST (Dec. 15, 1995: Demonstrators rally at hotel in Burma protest) added: (excerpts) The Students' Federation of Thailand, which is also part of the alliance, urged ASEAN to consider giving aid directly to the Burmese people in education, public health and agro-industry, instead of handing it to the Rangoon junta. The federation said: "ASEAN countries should join hands in pushing for the democratisation of Burma by supporting pro-democracy leaders as well as the dialogue process towards national reconciliation. " The anti-Rangoon Karen National Union yesterday urged ASEAN leaders to use the Burmese prime minister's visit to pressure the junta into effecting political reforms. In a statement yesterday it said: "The KNU ... would like to appeal to ASEAN leaders to use their prestige and influence to ... persuade Gen Than Shwe of the need for the SLORC to urgently make a real commitment to peace, freedom and democracy in Burma." ************************************************************** BKK POST: US SENATOR SEEKS TOUGHER SANCTIONS AGAINST BURMA December 15, 1995 US Subcommittee on Foreign Operation chairman Sen Mitch McConnell addressed the Senate on December 8 on the subject of Burma. Following are excerpts of his speech. LAST week, in yet another remarkable act of courage, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi announced her party, the National League for Democracy, will not participate in the constitutional convention called by the State Law and Order Restoration Council. As many who have followed Burma in recent years know, remaining true to the people who elected her and the NLD in 1990, Suu Kyi declared: "A country which is drawing up a constitution that will decide the future of the state should have the confidence of the people"_ a standard SLORC clearly does not and cannot meet." SLORC has now charged Suu Kyi and her supporters as engaging in confrontational politics but, as Suu Kyi is quick to point out: What they have termed confrontational is that we have asked for dialogue, which we want in order to prevent confrontation. To silence the views of people whose opinions are different by putting them in prison is far more confrontational. Let me assure my colleagues that Suu Kyi's understanding of the deteriorating situation in Burma is not a lonely minority view. Last week United Nations, once again, took up the question of Burma's political and human rights record. Once again, the Special Rapporteur, Dr Yokota, issued a report which few may actually read, but it is a powerful voice for the thousands and thousands of Burmese citizens who continue to suffer at the hands of SLORC. Dr Yokota paints a grim portrait of Burma today _ a picture which stands at odds with the one the international business community would have us see. A few months ago, in my office, I listened as the chairman of a large American oil company eager to do business with SLORC denounced as rumours and gossip the idea that the SLORC was engaged in any forced relocations related to his project. I respectfully suggest this month's UN report rises above the gossip standard. I have taken the time to come to the floor to discuss these events because I am deeply disturbed by twin developments: a major campaign by American companies to enhance the political legitimacy of SLORC even as SLORC attempts to crush the fledgling democracy movement inside Burma. In recent weeks, many United States businesses have engaged in an aggressive campaign to persuade the public that SLORC is worth doing business with because, like Vietnam and China, Burma can be improved through economic engagement. I think it is important to draw a key distinction. Unlike China and Vietnam, Burma held legitimate elections and chose a leader, Aung San Suu Kyi. The elections by all accounts were free, fair and 7 million people made their views absolutely clear. I must confess, I was appalled by a recent study produced by the National Bureau for Asian Research which suggested these results were essentially irrelevant. The report said, Suu Kyi was: "Obviously sincere, but it remains to be seen how successful she will be in her attempts and whether her supporters are helping her attain a position of leadership." Insult was added to injury when the report stated: "Even assuming the time may come when she does have a say in how the country is governed, it is an open question of how well equipped she is for such responsibilities, and to what extent she would be able to rely on experienced technocrats and administrators." When recently pressed by a representative of the UN Secretary General to engage in a dialogue with Suu Kyi, SLORC officials dismissed the request pointing out, Suu Kyi was now "an ordinary citizen, that in 1990 there were as many as 230 political parties with which it would be impossible to establish dialogue and it would thus not be even-handed to single out any one of them". Well, she is the one they elected. To make the argument that the United States should resign itself to dealing with SLORC to bring about change, compromises the very core of beliefs that define our history and guide this nation. We do not yield to vicious dictators_ we do not abandon those who strain against the barbed wire shackles of repression.. It is not just the campaign that is being waged here at home to enhance SLORC's political credentials that has brought me to the floor of the Senate. I am also concerned about recent events in Burma. Not only has SLORC repeatedly and publicly rejected Suu Kyi's call for a dialogue on national reconciliation, last week a senior official threatened to annihilate anyone who attempted to- endanger the military's rule. This week, the noose tightened a little more and Suu Kyi was directly threatened. The official military newspaper called Suu Kyi a traitor who should be annihilated. Rhetoric has been matched by an increased willingness to restrict Suu Kyi's role. In October, the National Democracy League voted to reinstate Suu Kyi as general secretary along with a slate of other officials. In yet another effort to work peacefully with SLORC, the NLD submitted the leadership list to the junta for approval. SLORC rejected the results as illegal and refused to recognise Suu Kyi's position. Is it any wonder her party has decided they cannot participate in the constitutional convention process? Last week_ like every week since her release_ thousands of people gathered outside Suu Kyi's home to listen to her speak. Each Saturday and Sunday spontaneous crowds have made the pilgrimage to her compound and left inspired by her courage, her confidence, and her commitment to their freedom and future. It is a crowd described in the UN report and in news accounts as large and peaceful with a sense of purpose and discipline. Unfortunately, two weeks ago,, there was a sharp change in the SLORC's tolerance for these gathering. In an apparent attempt to restrict access to Suu Kyi, police began to erect barricades around her home. I understand three young student supporters were arrested when they tried to intervene. According to Dr Yokota's report, corroborated by newspaper stories, the three were charged and sentenced two days later to two years imprisonment. These arrests were followed by another ominous development. When the NLD announced it would not participate in the constitutional convention the party's senior officials woke up to find their homes surrounded by armed soldiers. Democracy activists are not suffering in Burma alone. Last week nine members of The New Era newspaper staff were detained in Thailand. The New Era is an underground newspaper with wide circulation inside Burma _ apparently being caught with a copy results in immediate arrest. Bowing to pressure from SLORC, in anticipation of an upcoming visit by a senior junta official, Khin Nyunt, Thai officials apparently have detained The New Era journalists _including a 71-year-old editor and his 65-year-old wife. Reports from activists inside and outside Burma suggest a broad crack down on democratic activists is imminent. I hope this is not true and urged the administration to make clear United States opposition to any such actions. However, the evidence suggests there is credible reason to be concerned. In the near future the United Nations will take up a resolution regarding Burma. I have been advised that the United Nations will, once again, condemn the human rights and political situation in clear and compelling terms. I commend Ambassador Albright for her efforts to assure our support for Suu Kyi and democracy in Burma are spelled out in the resolution. However, for more than a year the administration has argued Burma and SLORC has a choice _ they must immediately improve their human rights record and move promptly to open the political process or they will face further international isolation. I agree, but my definition of prompt and immediate seems to differ with theirs. I think we have given SLORC ample time to make a decision. Given recent events, it is clear they have now intention to relax their ruthless grip on power. So in conjunction with the UN resolution it is my intention to introduce bipartisan sanctions legislation There is no question that sanctions and further isolation of SLORC is an initiative Suu Kyi supports. Indeed once again this week she denounced the increase in foreign investment and urged companies to wait until democracy has been restored before bringing business to Burma. **************************************************** HON. BILL RICHARDSON: SPPECH ON BURMA IN THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES December 13, 1995 (abridged) Mr. RICHARDSON. Mr. Speaker, I want to submit for the Record Ambassador Madeleine Albright's remarks on the human rights situation in Burma to the U.N. General Assembly Third Committee. I join Ambassador Albright's endorsement of the U.N. resolution to urge the Government of Burma to cease its violations of internationally recognized human rights. I also want to take this opportunity to commend Ambassador Albright for her tremendous work on this issue. I encourage all Members to support the work of our U.N. Representative as she relentlessly pursues the cause of Burmese democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi. Ambassador Albright had a great meeting in Burma this fall Aung San Suu Kyi. Recent developments in Burma have given us cause for great concern. It is imperative that the governing State Law and Order Restoration Council understand that the United States and the international community will not tolerate threats or actions that suppress the advancement of the democratic movement in Burma . (Madeleine Albright's Speech is not posted here as it was already posted in the BurmaNet News, Issue #300) ****************************************************** TIMES OF INDIA: CHINA HAS CAPITALIZED ON MYANMAR's ISOLATION December 15, 1995ians attempts. ****************************************************************** JAPAN TIMES: YEN-LOAN TAP FOR MYANMAR MAY GO DRY Hardline Moves Strain Constructive Engagement (abridged) December 15, 1995 By Hisane Masaki from carol@xxxxxxx Renewed political tensions in Myanmar are forcing Japn to consider putting the brakes on its recently declared policy of gradually turning on the aid tap for the impoverished Southeast Asian country. When the military regime -- which styles itself as the State Law and Order Restoration Council -- released dissident leader Aung San Suu Kyi in July after nearly six years of house arrest, many Japanese government officials couldn't hide their elatio n, trumpeting what to them was the success of their policy of "constructive engagement." Following Suu Kyi's freedom, Tokyo began to move, albeit cautiously, toward complete resumption of official economic aid for Rangoon, which was frozen after the military took power in a 1988 coup. As a first step, Tokyo provided 1.6 billion yen in grant-in-aid in October for the repair of a nurse training school in the capital. Until recently, Tokyo had planned to take a second step by extending 4.8 billion yen in official loans for the improvement of Rangoon's power supply network before the current fiscal year ends next March. But now Japanese officials say that the provision of those yen loans is likely to be delayed until next fiscal year because of the tense confrontation between the SLORC and Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy. The power supply network is among the six infrastructure projects that have been put on hold since the late 1980s because the yen loans Japan had committed earlier for them stopped flowing into Myanmar. The officials also say that Japan will postpone a planned "aid-policy dialogue" mission to Rangoon again, until sometime next year. The mission, originally planned for October to hear requests from Rangoon about Japanese aid, had been rescheduled fo r this month. The planned mission is designed to soothe the SLORC, which has been disappointed with what it sees as Japan's slow move toward a full-scale resumption of economic aid despite Suu Kyi's freedom, apparently expecting Japan to show more enthusiasm about future aid. "The mission would simply provide a chance to exchange views with SLORC officials on Japanese aid but would not pledge any fresh aid," a Japanese government source said. "But sending the mission now would send a wrong signal to the international com munity that Japan is clearly siding with the SLORC in its showdown with the NLD." Japan is widely believed to have played a key role behind the scenes in persuading the SLORC to release Suu Kyi. The fact that the Japanese Embassy in Rangoon was first informed of the SLORC decision reinforced that view. Japan has had long and especially amicable relationship with Myanmar, formerly Burma. Aung San, Suu Kyi's father and the country's revolutionary hero, received training in Japan during World War II. "Japan may have misled the SLORC by giving an impression that its aid tap would be turned on freely once Suu Kyi is released," a senior Japanese Foreign Ministry official said on condition that he not be named. Before the latest confrontation emerged between the SLORC and the NLD, Japan had also been considering an additional extension of grant aid as early as next spring, aimed at boosting food production in rural areas populated by ethnic minorities and i mproving medical equipment at a Mandalay hospital. But even the tentative date for this fresh humanitarian aid will probably be delayed because of the political impasse in Myanmar, another senior Foreign Ministry official said, requesting anonymity. "Japan may have been too optimistic about Myanmar's political situation," the official acknowledged. "Japan now is in no mood and in no hurry to provide fresh aid to Myanmar. Any such move would not only spark international criticism but also encou nter opposition from within the ruling coalition," the official said. What Japan fears most is another bout of military repression of prodemocracy forces. In that worst-case scenario -- indeed, there is a possibility of that happening -- Japan will lose its face and will be forced to reverse moves toward full resumpti on of aid. Many analysts say the SLORC will try to avoid quashing the prodemocracy movement by force, as it did in 1988, for fear of further damaging its international position and frightening away foreign investors, who in recent months have been trekking to M yanmar in droves to tap a potentially lucrative, resource-rich market of some 45 million people. But at the same time, the analysts do not rule out the possibility that an accidental clash between the military and prodemocracy forces would escalate into a repeat of the 1988 nightmare. "The current deadlock in Myanmar's politics is likely to continue for the time being," a senior Japanese government offical said on condition that he not be named. "We are closely watching to see if something that breaks the impasse will happen. The dates which we are paying extra attention to for the time being are: December 15, when Than Shwe will be in Bangkok, and January 4, the 48th anniversary of Burma' s independence from Britain," the official said. ********************************************************* NATION: JUNTA LEADER SAYS BURMA MOVING TOWARDS DEMOCRACY December 16, 1995 (abridged) BURMESE junta leader Lt Gen Than Shwe yesterday told Asean leaders this country is progressing towards an open-market economy, a process he predicted will lead to democracy. He said Burma's chances of becoming a member of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations had increased as a result of the SEA-10 nations meeting. According to Kobsak Chutikul, director general of the Foreign Ministry's Economic Affairs Department, Than Shwe told the other 10 leaders that he hoped Burma would be granted Asean observer status when Asean foreign ministers hold their annual meeting next year in Indonesia. Kobsak, who served as one of Prime Minister Banahrn Silapa-archa's three "technical staff" during the summit, said all 11 leaders reaffirmed Asean's policy of non-interference at the meeting. Than Shwe's remarks about the relationship between economic and political development in Burma are seen as an attempt to allay Asean concerns about the political and human rights situation there. Asked whether Asean wants to see a dialogue between Suu Kyi and the junta, Saroj Chavanaviraj, the Foreign Ministry's permanent secretary, said the group would not comment since that would represent interfering in others' domestic affairs. He said simply that Asean "has been watching" political developments in Burma. Saroj told a press conference after a meeting between Banharn and Than Shwe, who chairs the ruling State Law and Order Restoration Council (Slorc), that the Thai premier had said he hoped to visit Burma next month. Saroj said Banharn told Than Shwe that the Thai Cabinet had approved the border trade agreement between Thailand and Burma earlier this week. He said the two countries could sign it soon. The two countries still must set a date to sign the agreement, which was first proposed by Burma in February 1990. Saroj said the agreement was based on a similar pact Burma had signed with three other neighbours Bangladesh, China and India. He said both Thailand and Burma want the agreement since it should help regulate border trade and generate tax revenues. He admitted that smuggling and armed ethnic violence were crucial to the agreement's drafting. **************************************************************** BANGKOK POST: SURPRISE BURMA CHAT December 16, 1995 DEPUTY Premier and Defence Minister Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh was an unexpected arrival at the summit yesterday. He turned up for a private talk with his " brother ", Burma's Prime Minister Gen Than Shwe. " I just called on him as a brother," said Gen Chavalit, who claimed it was nothing more than a chat. Gen Chavalit also met Lt Gen Khin Nyunt, first secretary general of Burma's ruling State Law and Order Restoration Council, and Foreign Minister U Ohn Gyaw. Their half-hour meeting comprised 10 people including Deputy Army Commander Gen Chetta Tanajaro and Lt Sornchai Montriwat, a deputy interior minister who is in charge of the Burmese delegation. ---------------------------------------------------------- ***************************************************************** |
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This Bible study on Psalm 119:41-48 contains outlines, extensive. See the bottom of this page for links to inductive Bible studies for the rest of Psalm 119.
Psalm 119:41-48 Bible Study with Questions, Cross References, and Teaching Points
Psalm 119:41-48
Speaking the Truth of His Word
Summary-God’s Word brings us His lovingkindness and salvation. If we trust in it, we will be able to answer those who reproach us. His Word of truth should not depart from our mouths, but we should wait for it. Our obedience of it should be continuous. In fact, obedience frees us! As long as we speak His Word, we need not feel shame before anyone. Our love for His commandments should be so great that we receive them eagerly, delight in them openly, and meditate on them constantly.
Central Teaching- We should love God’s Word and have it on our lips in every circumstance.
Key Words- salvation, word, trust, truth, keep, seek, walk, speak, delight, love, meditate
Key Verse- 119:45
Ten things this passage says-
- His lovingkindness and His salvation are exactly as His Word portrays them.
- His lovingkindness and salvation come to US, we don’t seek them out.
- I will be reproached.
- I will have an answer for those who reproach me because I trust in His Word.
- If I wait for His ordinances, He will not take the word of truth utterly from my mouth.
- Obedience should be both continual and eternal.
- If I seek His precepts, I will walk in liberty.
- I will not be ashamed if I speak of His word before anyone, even kings.
- His commandments are delightful and lovable.
- I should receive His commandments openly, love them, and meditate on them.
Ten things this passage does NOT say-
- I am worthy and deserving of His lovingkindness and salvation.
- I seek out His lovingkindness and salvation, because I am wise enough to want the best.
- Being a Christian means everyone is going to love me.
- If people reproach me, I can come up with an answer for them on my own.
- Even if I am saved, at any point God can remove His word from me entirely.
- As soon as I am a Christian, I should know all about God’s word, His laws and ordinances.
- It’s okay to only obey most of the time, or when I feel like it.
- I can be saved and just stop obeying the Lord or following after Him.
- His word enslaves me and takes away my freedom of choice.
- It is embarrassing to be a Christian and to have to talk about the things of God before others.
What does this passage teach me about God?
He seeks us out.
He is full of lovingkindness and salvation for His children.
His Word is true, and will never change.
He gives us the wisdom we need, when we need it.
He will not remove His word from His children.
He is patient, and requires us to be patient.
He is eternal.
He frees us from bondage.
He is worthy.
He is deep and boundless. We can meditate on Him for an eternity and never reach the end. We can obey Him forever and never be sorry.
Questions-
Why is it important that His lovingkindness and salvation come to us? V41
What is lovingkindness? V41
Why does it say that they come to us “according to His word?” V41
What observations can you make about our character and God’s character, based on this verse? V41
What is indicated by this verse about the opposition that Christians will face? V42
What is promised to Christians who face opposition? V42
Why should we trust in His word? V42
How would His word silence opposition? V42
What should be true of God’s word in Christian’s speech, according to this verse? V43
What enables us to keep up this standard of speech? V43
Why will He not take His word utterly from our mouth? V43
What is indicated about God’s character when it says that we should “wait for His ordinances”? V43
What should be true of our character in this situation? V43
Why should I keep His law continuously? V44
How should I keep His law? V44
What is indicated about God’s character and our future in this verse? V44
What is a benefit of seeking His precepts? V45
What does it mean to “walk in liberty”? V45
How does the idea of “seeking His precepts” go against the world’s idea of liberty? V45
How do we seek His precepts? V45
Who should we speak of His testimonies before? V46
Why should we not be ashamed to speak of them? V46
What does this verse indicate about God’s word and character, and what should it indicate about ours? V46
What should our attitude be towards His commandments? V47
Why should we love them? V 47
What does it mean to “lift up my hands to Your commandments”? V 48
Why should we have this attitude towards His laws? V48
Why do you think it emphasizes the need to love His word in the last 2 verses? V48
What should be our action towards His word? How do we do that? V48
Cross References-
Psalm 119:41-
Ps 69:16
16 Answer me, O LORD, for Your lovingkindness is good;
According to the greatness of Your compassion, turn to me,
Ps 106:4-5
4 Remember me, O LORD, in Your favor toward Your people;
Visit me with Your salvation,
5 That I may see the prosperity of Your chosen ones,
That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,
That I may glory with Your inheritance.
Ps 119:58
58 I sought Your favor with all my heart;
Be gracious to me according to Your word.
Ps 119:76
76 O may Your lovingkindness comfort me,
According to Your word to Your servant.
Gen 49:18
18 "For Your salvation I wait, O LORD.
Ps 119:58
58 I sought Your favor with all my heart;
Be gracious to me according to Your word.
Ps 119:77
77 May Your compassion come to me that I may live,
For Your law is my delight.
Ps 119:170
170 Let my supplication come before You;
Deliver me according to Your word.
Luke 18:13
13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
Psalm 119:42-
Ps 3:2
2 Many are saying of my soul,
"There is no deliverance for him in God."
Ps 42:10-11.
Ps 71:10-11
10 For my enemies have spoken against me;
And those who watch for my life have consulted together,
11 Saying, "God has forsaken him;
Pursue and seize him, for there is no one to deliver."
Ps 109:25
25 I also have become a reproach to them;
When they see me, they wag their head.
Ps 56:4
4 In God, whose word I praise,
In God I have put my trust;
I shall not be afraid.
What can mere man do to me?
Ps 56:10-11
10 In God, whose word I praise,
In the LORD, whose word I praise,
11 In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid.
What can man do to me?
Ps 119:49
Remember the word to Your servant,
In which You have made me hope.
Ps 119:74
74 May those who fear You see me and be glad,
Because I wait for Your word.
Ps 119:81
My soul languishes for Your salvation;
I wait for Your word.
Acts 27:25
25 "Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God that it will turn out exactly as I have been told.
Josh 119:22
22 Take away reproach and contempt from me,
For I observe Your testimonies.
Ps 130:5
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul does wait,
And in His word do I hope.
Prov 27:11
11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart glad,
That I may reply to him who reproaches me.
Psalm 119:43-
Ps 50:16
16 But to the wicked God says,
"What right have you to tell of My statutes
And to take My covenant in your mouth?
Ps 51:14-15
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
Ps 71:17-18.
Ps 119:13
13 With my lips I have told of
All the ordinances of Your mouth.
Isa."
Eph 1:14-16;
James 1:18
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Ps 9:16
16 The LORD has made Himself known;
He has executed judgment.
In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared
Ps 43:1
Vindicate me, O God, and plead my case against an ungodly nation;
O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man!
Ps 119:175
175 Let my soul live that it may praise You,
And let Your ordinances help me.
1 Peter 2:23
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
Psalm 119:44-
Ps 119:33-34
Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall observe it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law
And keep it with all my heart.
Rev 7:15
15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 22:11
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
1 Chron 28.
Ps 106:3
3 How blessed are those who keep justice,
Who practice righteousness at all times!
Ps 119:5
5 Oh that my ways may be established
To keep Your statutes!
Ps 119:112
112 I have inclined my heart to perform Your statutes
Forever, even to the end.
Ps 119:145
I cried with all my heart; answer me, O LORD!
I will observe Your statutes.
Psalm 119:45-
Ps 119:133
133 Establish my footsteps in Your word,
And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me.
Luke 4:18
18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
John 8:30
30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
James 1:25
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
James 2:12
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
2 Peter 2:19
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
Ps 119:32
32 I shall run the way of Your commandments,
For You will enlarge my heart.
Ps 119:71
71 It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
Ps 119:148
148 My eyes anticipate the night watches,
That I may meditate on Your word.
Prov 2:4-5
4 If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God.
Prov 18:1
He who separates himself seeks his own desire,
He quarrels against all sound wisdom.
John 5:39
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Eph 5:17
17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Ezra 7:10
10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the LORD and to practice it, and to teach His statutes and ordinances in Israel.
John 8:32
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Rom 6:18
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Gal 2:4
4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Psalm 119:46-
Ps 138:1
I will give You thanks with all my heart;
I will sing praises to You before the gods.
Dan 3:16."
Dan 4:1-3.
Matt 10:18-19.
Mark 8:38
38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Phil 1:20
20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
2 Tim 1:8
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
1 Peter 4:14
14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
1 John 2:28
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
Deut 6:7
7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.
Judg 5:3
3 "Hear, O kings; give ear, O rulers!
I -- to the LORD, I will sing,
I will sing praise to the LORD, the God of Israel.
Matt 10:32
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
Col 4:6
6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.
1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
Psalm 119:47-
Ps 112:1
Praise the LORD!
How blessed is the man who fears the LORD,
Who greatly delights in His commandments.
Ps 119:16
16 I shall delight in Your statutes;
I shall not forget Your word.
Ps 119:24
24 Your testimonies also are my delight;
They are my counselors.
John 4:34
34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
Phil 2:5
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
1 Peter 2:21
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
Job 23:11-12
11 "My foot has held fast to His path;
I have kept His way and not turned aside.
12 "I have not departed from the command of His lips;
I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.
Ps 19:7
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Rom 7:12
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom 7:16
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
Rom 7:22
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Ps 1:2
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
Ps 40:8
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart."
Ps 119:14
14 I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
Ps 119:143
143 Trouble and anguish have come upon me,
Yet Your commandments are my delight.
Prov 3:1
My son, do not forget my teaching,
But let your heart keep my commandments;
Prov 3:17
17 Her ways are pleasant ways
And all her paths are peace.
Rom 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Psalm 119:48-
Ps 10:12
12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up Your hand.
Do not forget the afflicted.
Ezek 44:12
12 "Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment for their iniquity.
Mic 5:9
9 Your hand will be lifted up against your adversaries,
And all your enemies will be cut off.
Matt 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 13:17
17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.
John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
James 1:22-24.
Ps 1:2
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
Ps 119:15
15 I will meditate on Your precepts
And regard Your ways.
Ps 112:1
Praise the LORD!
How blessed is the man who fears the LORD,
Who greatly delights in His commandments.
Ps 119:31
31 I cling to Your testimonies;
O LORD, do not put me to shame!
Ps 119:97
O how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
Prov 3:1
My son, do not forget my teaching,
But let your heart keep my commandments;
Rom 7:22
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
1 Tim 4:15
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
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