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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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They both conclude that the hard problem of consciousness
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:13:52.800
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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is BS.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:13:55.160
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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On one hand, you have some people like Daniel Dennett
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:13:56.840
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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who say that consciousness is just BS
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:13:59.320
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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because consciousness is the same thing as intelligence.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:01.480
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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There's no difference.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:05.000
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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So anything which acts conscious is conscious,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:06.440
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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just like we are.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:11.080
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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And then there are also a lot of people,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:13.480
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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including many top AI researchers I know,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:15.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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who say, oh, consciousness is just bullshit
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:18.400
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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because, of course, machines can never be conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:19.920
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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They're always going to be zombies.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:22.760
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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You never have to feel guilty about how you treat them.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:24.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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And then there's a third group of people,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:27.880
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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including Giulio Tononi, for example,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:30.880
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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and Krzysztof Koch and a number of others.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:34.920
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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I would put myself also in this middle camp
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:37.440
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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who say that actually some information processing
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:39.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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is conscious and some is not.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:41.880
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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So let's find the equation which can be used
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:44.160
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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to determine which it is.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:46.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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And I think we've just been a little bit lazy,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:49.080
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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kind of running away from this problem for a long time.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:52.040
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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It's been almost taboo to even mention the C word
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:54.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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in a lot of circles because,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:14:57.840
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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but we should stop making excuses.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:00.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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This is a science question and there are ways
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:03.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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we can even test any theory that makes predictions for this.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:07.920
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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And coming back to this helper robot,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:11.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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I mean, so you said you'd want your helper robot
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:13.640
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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to certainly act conscious and treat you,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:16.080
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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like have conversations with you and stuff.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:18.160
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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I think so.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:20.880
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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But wouldn't you, would you feel,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:21.720
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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would you feel a little bit creeped out
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:22.560
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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if you realized that it was just a glossed up tape recorder,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:23.920
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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you know, that was just zombie and was a faking emotion?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:27.680
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Would you prefer that it actually had an experience
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:31.560
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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or would you prefer that it's actually
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:34.560
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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not experiencing anything so you feel,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:37.000
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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you don't have to feel guilty about what you do to it?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:39.120
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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It's such a difficult question because, you know,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:42.200
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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it's like when you're in a relationship and you say,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:45.040
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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well, I love you.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:47.280
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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And the other person said, I love you back.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:48.120
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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It's like asking, well, do they really love you back
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:49.760
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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or are they just saying they love you back?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:52.640
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Don't you really want them to actually love you?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:55.360
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
It's hard to, it's hard to really know the difference
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:15:58.120
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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between everything seeming like there's consciousness
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:03.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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present, there's intelligence present,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:09.000
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
there's affection, passion, love,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:10.640
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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and it actually being there.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:13.840
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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I'm not sure, do you have?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:16.200
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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But like, can I ask you a question about this?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:17.720
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Like to make it a bit more pointed.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:19.400
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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So Mass General Hospital is right across the river, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:20.760
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:22.920
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Suppose you're going in for a medical procedure
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:23.760
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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and they're like, you know, for anesthesia,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:26.720
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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what we're going to do is we're going to give you
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:29.320
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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muscle relaxants so you won't be able to move
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:31.000
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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and you're going to feel excruciating pain
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:33.160
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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during the whole surgery,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:35.040
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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but you won't be able to do anything about it.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:35.880
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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But then we're going to give you this drug
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:37.600
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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that erases your memory of it.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:39.200
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Would you be cool about that?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:41.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
What's the difference that you're conscious about it
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:44.960
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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or not if there's no behavioral change, right?
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:48.600
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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Right, that's a really, that's a really clear way to put it.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:51.640
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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That's, yeah, it feels like in that sense,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:54.520
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
experiencing it is a valuable quality.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:16:57.400
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
So actually being able to have subjective experiences,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:01.080
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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at least in that case, is valuable.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:05.840
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
And I think we humans have a little bit
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:09.120
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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of a bad track record also of making
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:11.240
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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these self serving arguments
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:13.600
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
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that other entities aren't conscious.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:15.480
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
You know, people often say,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:18.040
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
oh, these animals can't feel pain.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:19.160
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
It's okay to boil lobsters because we ask them
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:21.800
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
if it hurt and they didn't say anything.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:24.040
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
And now there was just a paper out saying,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:25.960
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
lobsters do feel pain when you boil them
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:27.400
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
and they're banning it in Switzerland.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:29.320
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
And we did this with slaves too often and said,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:31.040
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
oh, they don't mind.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:33.560
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Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
They don't maybe aren't conscious
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:36.240
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
or women don't have souls or whatever.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:39.480
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
So I'm a little bit nervous when I hear people
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:41.160
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
just take as an axiom that machines
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:43.200
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
can't have experience ever.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:46.360
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
I think this is just a really fascinating science question
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:48.960
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
is what it is.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:51.560
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
Let's research it and try to figure out
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:52.400
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
what it is that makes the difference
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:54.720
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
between unconscious intelligent behavior
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:56.000
|
Max Tegmark: Life 3.0 | Lex Fridman Podcast #1
|
and conscious intelligent behavior.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0001-large.html#00:17:58.880
|
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