Datasets:

breadlicker45

/

Bread-chatbot-dataset-test

like 0

/nhuman: Changing from whole wheat to rye feeding a starter = a bad idea? I've got a starter that's been fed whole wheat since I've had it (only 4 bakes).  This morning I decided to feed it rye insteadIt's not really responding very perkily.   Plus it's rather cementlike.  First time using rye so not sure if this is to be expected?   Used same ratio as previously - equal parts water flour and old starter.   I've added water to it to give it a better texture.  Do you think I've seriously annoyed it? Should I give it a whole wheat feed later in the day to ease it in to the change of diet?tx! /nai: First 4 bakes - how old is First 4 bakes - how old is the starter.Cement like - different flours require different amounts of water, rye tends to be on the thirsty side compared to ww or white. Regardless of flours used, go by consistency and maintain that.Not responding as usual - different food, different behavior. I always recommend to work a different food in over a little time - for 2 reasons. Gives the bugs a little time to get used to the new eats, and gives you a little time to get used to the new eats as odds are very good there will be differences in behavior.What to do, gradually increase the ratio of new food over about a week and go by feel for now as to consistency. Your can easily change that once things stabilize. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Whole Wheat Sourdough Starter Has anyone tried making a sourdough starter from whole wheat flour?I'm thinking the higher ash content of ww flour might help in my never-ending quest for more lactic-acid sourness.Note that the old SFSD recipes state that clear flour was used for the sponge. I've tried this and it didn't work too well. In addition, it seems that ww flour has higher ash content than clear flour (0.6%).If you've made a ww starter, how did it work out and how did it affect the flavor of the bread? I can pick up KA ww flour at the market next door, whereas I would have to order first-clear flour and have it shipped.Some people have suggested using rye flour but I'm hesitant to switch grains. As far as I can tell, SFSD was made entirely with wheat flour and I'm aiming for authenticity.For the first time in a long time, I don't have any starter in the fridge, so it's time to start a ww starter from scratch. /nai: Ash values for KA flours I got these values from KA a few years ago:Whole Wheat:   1.5%All-Purpose:   0.5%Bread Flour:   0.5%Clear:   0.8%I calculated that 70% KA AP or Bread flour + 30% WW will get you approximately the same ash level as their clear, although the composition and flavor aren't going to be the same.

/nhuman: Open crumb soft crust on one side I just joined to ask (always visit site) because I am not sure what causes the issue on the right side of the batard (bottom of the pic).  I believe it is shaping.  It's the second time this has happened.  85% hydration.  Also, I am wondering if poor scoring technique has anything to do with this. Thanks.-Erick /nai: Looks great to me Can't find anything wrong with that loaf. Looks delicious! If you don't want large holes in the crumb then de-gas the dough a bit more by popping the larger bubbles. But other than that it's a perfect loaf.

/nhuman: dough turns wet during proof Hi thereI'm maken sourdough bread on a daily bases for over 3 years now. I think I know what a good loaf looks like.Since recently, it started with a new batch of flour, there is something wrong.The dough feels slack after bulk, proof is medium, but most of all, the loaf starts to 'sweat'. The formed bread gets some water on it in the proofing basket.After baking, the bread is heavy, but the ovenrise is good. And turns stall after a few hours.I did some testing with yeast and the same thing happens in a milder form.So, my thoughts are that the flour is nog optimal. But what could be wrong with it? Low gluten? Moist? Has anyone same expericenes? /nai: Yes. Your new batch of flour came with a higher moisture content than the previous batch. It happens.Once a baker learns how the dough should feel, he/she holds back a little water with a new batch (and sometimes on every bake)  and watches how the new batch behaves, then adds in the "hold-back water" as needed.Big-time Commercial roller mills "temper" their grain to an exact moisture level as part of the milling process.Smaller milling operations that use stone or impact mills usually don't -- they receive grain, mill it, maybe sift it some, ship it out.Storage conditions, specifically humidity, at the wholesaler, at the retailer, and at your home, also affect the moisture level of flour by the time you bake with it.Bon appétit.

/nhuman: add oat flour I'm looking to add oat flour to a sourdough recipe.. If I would normally do 80% bread flour, 20% whole wheat, 75% hydration, would swapping in oat flour to say 60% bread flour, 20% whole wheat, 20% oat flour require a change in the hydration? I've seen oat porridge recipes recommend lower hydration because the porridge has water in it, but I'm adding oat flour not porridge. /nai: Go by feel. From your numbers, it looks like you're subbing in oat flour for the white bread flour.Oat flour is generally whole grain, that is, with all the bran. White bread flour has little to no bran.Bran "needs" more water than white/refined flour, so your new formula will most likely require more water than the old.  But it also depends on the moisture level of the oat flour.So start with the same water amount as before, and slowly add water, keeping track of how much, until the dough "feels" right.Oat flour is sticky, so this new dough may be just a bit harder to judge and compare.You could weigh out 100 g of water in a separate cup, add in to the dough as needed, then weigh the leftover water in the cup, subract from 100, and there is the answer. (Keep track of tare, etc.)Personally, I don't like oat flour in bread as it makes it too dense and moist.  Suggest you start out at 10%.Another idea to consider is use old fashioned rolled oats or quick oats (not instant oats).  They generally disolve and become indistinguishable anyway, and are cheaper than oat flour.  (Quick oats are just chopped up, and rolled thinner, old fashioned oats. Most big name groceries carry both.)I've also made oat flour by running rolled oats through a whirly-gig $12 coffee/spice grinder.Good luck and bon appétit.

/nhuman: Bagatelle T65 - First test of many... Amazing flour! Actually is the second. In the first try I managed to over knead the dough while doing S&F!! It was sad, but it shows how easily this flour develops the gluten. Very easy. After the @#$$%& was done I reached the net to find more about the flour, and apparently this have being noticed before, even compared with others strong flours, some posts here also said this.And indeed it was fast and easy to develop. I made basic white 1:2:3. By making this dough at 71% made me notice that the doughs I was making with same hydration and some local organic (14% protein, but some thing very different...) or "00" soft flours, was far far far very much a lot more slack and daunting to deal with. That was a piece of cake. : ) Perhaps dealing with those porridge likes dough has served to improve my skills, with this dough I think I could even make baguetes. Also I got ears and great oven spring. Ok, flour makes A LOT of difference, learned. Saturday:06:30 am - levain build  1:2:2 04:00 pm - mix (levain almost beginning to deflate already)04:30 pm - After autolyse, hand knead. It was easy05:00 pm - Bulk 06:00 as 09:00 pm- Some S&F as neede, not more than 3.09:00 pm - Divided/pré-shape (no flour to hanlde)09:30 pm -Shape and banneton( almost no flour to handle)10:00 pm -Final proof in fridgeSunday:10:50 am - Score and oven at 240c. Covered for  20 min plus 30/35 uncovered.The oven temp dropped considerably at loading, and took some time to recover, perhaps b/c of the cold dough, so average tem was more like 210/220 cThe flour:After da autolyse:Pre shaped:Beautiful dough: The result: /nai: Beautiful. Have been trying to find T65  for a while.  I think I've found where to get it.  Thanks for posting.  Loaves look gorgeous.hester

/nhuman: My starter has all the sudden become...weird. Why could this be? It was tripling or more in about 6 hours. All the sudden it just, stopped working. I use bottled water so it's not that. I did change my flour so I thought it was that but I bought my old flour and it still did it. It barely rises. Occasionally, it'll rise to about double, maybe a bit less, but takes like 20+ hours to do so. I'm not sure whats going on. Any thoughts? Thanks all! /nai: How are you feeding it? Be specific please.  Include temps.  And amounts, how often, any chilling?I notice your starter has gradually been problematic over a longer amount of time. Starters can balk at a change in flour but let the starter work thru the feeding until it rises.  Will know more with details.  How does it taste?

/nhuman: Irregular holes in Sourdough bread - help please :( Hey everyone,How's it going? I hope all is well.I've been recently running into an issue regarding oven spring and irregular holes with my sourdough bread.I usually bake with a cast iron dutch oven and usually get very good oven spring and consistency.Recently, I've tried to start utilizing my pizza stone to bake multiple loaves at a time.To first test it, I've been baking some loaves for the last few days, but have been having some severe problems with my bread.  My starter is very active, usually overflows from the container in about 8 hours. The recipe I use is as follows:800gr of unbleached strong bakers flour200gr of wholemeal200gr of rye sourdough starter20gr of salt700gr of tepid water I start off my feeding my starter the night before using a 1:5:5 feeding cycle. So 25gr mature starter, 125gr organic rye flour and 125gr water. I also start my autolyse the night before by mixing my flours and water and letting it sit for about 10 hours. In the morning, I test it by pulling a window (window pane) and it passes everytime.  In the morning, I mixed in my starter and salt at the same time to the dough and bulk ferment for 5 hours, at the moment my kitchen is about 21 degrees celcius. Within the first two hours of bulk fermentation, i stretch and fold 4 times. After stretching and folding, I shape my loaves into boules and place them into the bannetons, and proove them for about 3-3.5 hours at room temp. In the last 40 mins of the proving, I place them in the freezer as this makes scoring much easier. In the last hour of proving, I switch my oven on to its max (250 degrees C) and place my pizza stone in it with a cake pan that has lava stones in it underneath the pizza stone on the oven base.  I then score my loaf and put it straight on the pizza stone and put in about 500ml of water on the lava stones and immediately close the door. I bake the loaf in this way for 20-25 mins, then open the oven door to dry out the oven and take the lava stones out. I then bring my oven down to about 220 degrees c and bake my loaves for another 10-15 mins.  Here are the pictures of my loaves (I'm not sure why the first loaf is coming up upside down as I've tried uploading the picture 3 times) : /nai: Large irregular holes Surrounded by a tight crumb points to under fermented. You need to increase the bulk ferment time. I think the very long autolyse can make the dough feel ready when it's not. For an 80% bread flour dough 30-60 minutes is ample. It's done to allow the flour to absorb the water before the salt goes in. The aim of the game is not a windowpane. We look for that in the final dough. How mature is your starter when used? If your kitchen is 21°C in the day time then I assume it's colder at night. With your starter build being 1:5:5 plus it's not so warm it might mean your starter isn't being used at the optimum time.So it's either your starter and/or it simply needs a longer bulk ferment. Perhaps you can find a way of fermenting at warmer temperatures. Failing that then for longer.

/nhuman: Purple discoloration at the bottom of my discard jar Hello everyone Need some help figuring out if my discard needs to be "discarded" or is it still usable. There seems to be some purple discolouration at the bottom of the jar. I keep my whole wheat and wheat flour starters in the same container and this is a tad bit old /nai: I would discard that To be in the safe side. Looks like something sinister has invaded that discard. You should be maintaining your starter in such a way that has minimum or no discard.

/nhuman: Increase for Volume Baking Hi! So I currently feed my starter as follows 40g Starter/40g water/40g flour. I’m unsure how to increase that without discarding and feeding with new starter,flour and water. at the scheduled feeding time, do I just add more flour and water to the last feed to increase it? Thanks!! /nai: Chenoa,  what do you want to Chenoa,  what do you want to do?  If you want to end up with more than 120 grams of starter,  you have 2 options.  Either refresh twice at the ratio 1:1:1 ,  so for example, if you want to end up with 240 grams of starter, the first refresh would be 30:30:30   and when that starter matured, you can discard 10,  and take 80 grams of starter from the first refresh , and add 80 flour, and 80 water.  The other option is to change your ratio -  some go as high as 1:5:5   so  to do that,  you would start with 22 grams of starter, and add 110 water and 110 flour - it will take much longer to mature since the flour and water are much higher, but you would only have one refresh.

/nhuman: Trouble with Crackes Hi all, I have been trying this recipe: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22562/sourdough-crackers from Ron, but I can't get the crackers to be softer. My multigrain baking soda crackers aren't this crunchy. Is the baking soda/powder the kicker or is there just not enough fat? I have had to put my oven down to 300F and bake for 20 minutes, the middle still isn't crispy, but when it gets crispy (and not chewy) it's very hard!Things I've tried:I have an oven thermometer, my oven is spot on.Half all purpose flour and half whole wheat, my kids seem to like the rye tang though.I am using 20g of refined coconut oil (somewhat solid at room temp)Using silicone pie guides to roll it 1/16"Rolling thinner than 1/16, but then it just breaks apart into shards My goal is a kid friendly cracker. I have a 2 year old and 6 year old. thanks for any insight! /nai: In afraid you'll find baking In afraid you'll find baking powder is the trick. At least the easiest way to go. To get that soda cracker texture you really have to limit gluten development - to something like close to none. The advantage here with baking powder/soda is you add everything, mix just barely enough to incorporate (the absolute minimum of handling) and bake. This severely limits the amount of gluten formed and you get that texture. Yes you can add more fat, but it'll get hard, very hard. As an aside - I use very high gluten flour 17% protein - and use it for everything - pizza to biscuits - lots of gluten for pizza, hardly any for biscuits - it's all how ya go about it. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Ears I can’t seem to get an ear on my sourdough bread.  I bake them in a cast iron pot 13 quart.  I feel like I am getting it tight when I shape it.  As soon as I score the ear, it opens up wide. /nai: As soon as you score it opens up wide Sounds like you're scoring too deep. Scoring works when everything comes together just so from the ferment to shaping. When scoring don't go too deep and score at a 45° angle. Look for videos on how to score and then it's just practice, practice and more practice.

/nhuman: Baked in flan ring? A visit to the County Fair and review of winning entries left me with a question. Did these entries get turned from the banneton into a flan ring or cake pan? This bread has a slight "muffin top" which makes me believe so, but that's a technique I've never heard about. Another entry, sibling, has the same form. Did I miss a good trick? /nai: Or low pie pan.  Look at the Or low pie pan.  Look at the curvature of the bottom corner, seems like it was baked in a low pan or dish.  I would take points off for the void in the middle suggesting less than ideal forming and/or degassing.

/nhuman: New (to me) Flour & Starter Home I had some time to kill this weekend, and my wife bought me the Sourhouse Goldie for my starter.In short, I would say the starter warmer wouldn't be necessary at all, and not advantageous for many. That said, I keep my house rather cold, particularly in the winter (~60f). As such, it does prove helpful for me to get more activity from my starter quicker. So for me, while unnecessary, I would say it was a good addition to my arsenal. Additionally, it definitely looks better than the bowl with a hand towel I was using to hold the jar. I've pictured it below with what I think it most resembles. :-D Starter.jpg File_001.png As for the bread, I recently made my first purchase from Cairnspring Mills. I purchased a bag of their Trailblazer bread flour. While I had made some simple yeasted dinner rolls with it, I had not tried my hand at a sourdough loaf - until this weekend. I'm not sure what the content level the flour has in terms of bran and/or germ, but I liked the flour. I normally make ~75% hydration dough, and at that level, this dough came together very quickly in my Ankarsrum. For my next loaf, I will definitely consider something at or above 80%.I tend to struggle with the bulk fermentation when I make anything with sourdough. I tend to under proof due to my fear of over proofing. It continues to be my challenge, but one I graciously accept. All in all, this loaf turned out okay, and the flavor was on point. While expensive, I will also likely be trying other types of flour from this company.That said, if anyone has any other recommendations, I am all ears. I've regularly used King Arther and Bob's Red Mill, but have also tried Central Milling. Top.jpg Crumb.jpg /nai: Looks like it's working for you.  Yes, a little bit longer bulk rise might help the crumb. A cold room really slows it down.  I'm now using the bottom shelf of  my stereo cabinet as a bread proofer.  The electronics are always kicking off a little heat.

/nhuman: Over 2 weeks and still no yeast? Hello all! I've been browsing this site for advice and decided to make an account and post for some help :) I have a sourdough starter in the works, but I have yet to have any rise from it and there is definitely no yeast there.She has a pleasant faint fermented smell and bubbles slightly every day, but I think I mis-read the original recipe and underfed it to start with. I have hooch on the surface daily and remove that, some of the starter and feed. I start on 60g - 60g on 100% hydration.I've read tens of articles with information, some said to try dropping the hydration rate, others said skip a day. I skipped a feed yesterday despite some hooch gathering and woke up this morning to a layer on top of a thicker layer of the starter. I've dropped the hydration to about 80% for todays feed, but overall I have no idea what to do next! I'm based in the UK and my Kitchen is usually ambient in the 20's, sometimes a bit warmer when I'm cooking. I did pop it in the fridge for a few days while away after 8 days and my husband fed it once while I was away. Any advice would be great! TIA /nai: More info needed.Flour, feed More info needed.Flour, feed ratios and schedule etc etc.

/nhuman: bread burn out Just a quick survey...I see the same folks here over the course of years and I'm always impressed by the dedication to bread. I too love bread. But I get bread burn out after a few months. Then I go cold for awhile and find my way back.Do you ever just want to take a break from the starters, the science, the carbs! Just curious about my fellow bread lovers. /nai: Break from starters and Break from starters and sourdough - oh yeah. Sourdough has its place, but it's not everywhere. Some things just don't come out/taste the same when made from a sourdough starter. It's another tool basically.Science and carbs - never. Both are my friends. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Tartine levain refresh I've been regularly making the Tartine country loaf- but I essentially build a new levain each time I make it.  The past few times I've kept the remaining levain and fed it some flour (following his instructions to make a dry paste) . Does anyone have experience doing this? I'd like to use the levain from my fridge to start my bread. Do I just feed it normally, aiming to end up with the 150g of levain the final dough calls for? /nai: Depends on your meaning of Depends on your meaning of levain.If you mean starter - that does sound a little over the top and would not be considered a normal procedure.If you mean a preferment (a % of the formula mixed and let to sit for a period of time before completing the formula) - yeah many take that route.Saving some of the dough for the next batch has been done for I'm sure thousands of years - also known as old dough. I do that here and there, but every time I make bread, but if I feel like it I do. No issues.Fridge - I'd say a majority use cold for storage of starters, I'm one of them. If ya go about it properly, no issues. There's many posts on this, not that they are all good, but you should be able to get the gist of the process from those - which is - and this is a basic principle - cold slows things down. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Is it possible to make a sourdough starter from actual seeds? Hello All!I’m still super new to sourdough starters and I remember reading something cool about yeast water and thought it was super interesting how it all worked. So, in my adventures reading up on it, I asked myself a question and I really couldn’t find any answers. I tried googling but I’ve had no luck. So I thought maybe the community here might have some ideas? Has anyone ever tried making a sourdough starter out of ground seeds? Like ground flaxseed meal or ground pumpkin seeds mixed with water? I got the idea since fruit works and I wondered if maybe seeds would as well (might have to add some sugar or something?) But I wondered if anyone here has ever tried it or has any thoughts on whether it might work? (Or if using seeds is a bad idea because it might cultivate a dangerous strain of yeast maybe...?)I’m thinking I’ll try with flaxseed and water and see what happens just for the sake of experimentation! I’m very curious if it can be done... Thanks in advance for any input! /nai: Well, yeast water works by Well, yeast water works by cultivating yeast supplied by some source. Seeds, being in a shell and with what amounts to an impervious coating, wouldn't be a place I'd expect to find a good source of this yeast. But, you won't know for sure unless you try it, so give it a shot and see what happens. Let us know how it goes. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Threw out my starter by accident, how should I use my current pizza dough to recreate it? The unthinkable happened and I forgot to refresh my stiff starter. My current pizza dough is undergoing a bulk ferment in the fridge so it kind of lives on in there?? What's the best way to recreate my poor starter, should I hack off a large amount at the end of bulk and feed it? I'm mindful that the dough has salt in it.Or will a short 30 g piece do for now, 8 hours into the cold bulk..I know I could start a new starter but I really did enjoy how vigorous this one was :( /nai: Rebuilding Starter You've got nothing to lose except for some water and flour if you should use a 30 g piece of your dough to rebuild so give it a try. It may take a few feedings and discards to get what you think is an adequate amount of starter so have some patience. The salt content may slow down the first feeding but by the third feeding it will be negligible in percentage.

/nhuman: help! feed starter unbleached flour or wait? I brought my starter to my parents house so I can bake bread while I'm here, but all my mom has is bleached flour. Is it ok to feed my starter using bleached flour, or should I wait until I go to the store tomorrow? I fed my starter at 122 last night at 9, and by the looks of it, it's ready to be fed again. I won't be able to go to the store until tomorrow night, so it'd be roughly another 20 hours until I'd have the right flour. Any help appreciated! /nai: Making a starter using bleached flour is not advised But if you have a mature starter I don't see why it can't be fed bleached flour. The reason we don't use bleached flour to make a starter is because it's been stripped of all the goodness it needs to become a starter. However it can still be food for the bacteria and yeasts. All they need is the sugar within the flour. I live in the UK and we don't have bleached flour so it's never been an issue for me. Logic tells me it'll be fine. If you wish to get started and keep your starter but still concerned then why not split your starter in two and feed one with bleached flour. Should it work it'll be ready to make bread with tomorrow. If all goes wrong you've still got the other half which can be fed non bleached flour when you have time to buy it. Edit : I've just re-read your question and my idea would mean you'd have to store one half in the fridge. Why not, if you're concerned, keep your starter in the fridge till you have time to buy more flour? You don't have to continually feed your starter. Unless you want to be ready for a bake tomorrow.

/nhuman: Fools crumb？ Would love any insights on the crumb. Thank you! /nai: I think the difference between this crumb And a better crumb (by that I mean more even as supposed to very open as a good crumb is subjective) is slightly more adventurous with the ferment and when shaping knock out the larger air bubbles. I don't think it's a fools crumb or a drastic fools crumb at least. I think it looks like a nice loaf which if it tastes good is a success!

/nhuman: My starter problem Hello everybodyThis is my first post here at TFL, I found very interesting your thread about "pineapple solution" on new sourdough starters but my problem is a bit different..Recently my sourdough seems too much proteolityc (it degrades the dough very rapidly..and when I fold it it simply rip off!), when young it smells like rotten vegetable, in some cases like rotten eggs, but at the end of the maturation (approximately 8 hours ar RT with 1:2:2) it smells like ripen fruit.. I used young (with the rotten smell) and old (with the ripen fruit smell) but nothing changed..so I decided to start another sourdough.What I want to ask you is that: is there a way to "cure" an old sourdough and get rid of bad bacteria? Is the smell of rotten eggs (sulfurous) typical of "Leuconostoc" or can be other bacteria instead? I really can't imagine what could be the problem with my sourdough.. I don't want it smell like rotten "something"..even if it's at his younger stage!! Is there a cure for that? Best, /nai: How old is your starter? I'm How old is your starter? I'm not familiar with the pineapple method, but I do remember when making mine, at the beginning my starter had bubbles but had a terrible smell. I was told that it was the bad bacteria and that I should keep feeding/discarding. Took about 3 weeks to really get something consistent, and it never smells bad now (unless I starve it too long, it'll smell a little alcohol like). How is your new starter flopping?

/nhuman: How long should I cook my breads for in a Dutch oven and how do I prevent the outside from burning? I think that I am undercooking my bread, but I have no idea how long I should be baking them for. I feel like after about 10 minutes after taking the lid of the dutch oven off, my breads start getting too dark. So how can I cook for longer but not burn my breads? I cook at 450F for the most part. Thanks! /nai: It depends on the size of It depends on the size of your loaf and other factors. How long do you keep it covered in the DO? Do you have convection on? Or the grill/broiler?I tend to bake ~900g loafs, for around 20-25 min covered at 260C and around the same time uncovered at 240C.

/nhuman: Starter bubbles My starter doubles or more in size, and seems to work pretty well, but I think it should be doing better. I see some people get starters that look very strong with large bubbles and they make great bread. My bubbles are always smaller but plentiful, but I am still not sure it is the best it can be. I use 70 grams of rye flour, 140 grams of high protein bread flour and 140 grams of high protein fine ground whole wheat flour in my starter mix. Does anyone have suggestions as to whether this is a good mix or not? /nai: I treat my starter as seed only and use it to build preferments before adding to the dough. You say you use 70g rye flour + 140g bread flour + 140g whole wheat flour in your starter mix. Considering I only build 50-100g of starter at any one time this seems like an awful lot of starter to me. I think you need to explain your process a but more.

/nhuman: Can I delay/pause bulk ferment by putting dough in the fridge? I’m following a recipe that calls for an 8-10 hour overnight bulk fermentation on the counter (first time trying this method but I have a cold kitchen so it seems like it’ll work great). The plan was to have the dough ready by 9-10pm, BF overnight, then proof for about 24 hours to bake the next morning. Only, I messed up the timing and my dough will be ready for BF long before 9-10 pm. Am I able to pop it in the fridge and take it out later tonight to do the overnight BF? /nai: Yes. But take into account Yes. But take into account that it'll take a while for the dough to cool down, and also to warm up.

/nhuman: Commercial Yeast in Sourdough? I woke up late one morning and missed the peak of my starter. I decided to spoon a little into some water to see if it would float. It floated for about 3 seconds and then sank. Instead of feeding the starter, I just skipped the autolyse and incorporated everything into the bowl and kneaded super well. The dough was super wet so I just added more flour. After that I did a couple of stretch and folds and the dough still seemed too hydrated and it did not grow any bigger. So, I decided to add about 3/4 of a tablespoon of instant dry yeast. I kneaded it on the counter and it was a wet mess. So I added even more flour and did slap and folds. It seemed a bit more manageable so I put it back into the bowl and let it rise on its own. Is it ok to add yeast into the sourdough halfway into the process? /nai: Perfectly ok You did well. If for any reason your sourdough fails on you then you've hit upon a good way to save the dough. Sprinkle on some yeast, combine well and carry on. The starter/levain will impart flavour (and possible some rise) but it'll be a hybrid bread at best. A good save!

/nhuman: Starting a new culture. It's  been years since I had one and today I started a new sourdough. 2 T apf, 2 T warm water with juniper berries. I soaked the berries for about 1/2 hour, then mixed in the flour. It's in a 1/2 gallon glass jar. Wish me luck! Tomorrow,  it'll  be fed the apf and warm water with a small pinch of palm sugar. /nai: Half gallon jar? wow, that's positive thinking...but it might be too big.  I tend to use much smaller containers.Good luck!  May the forces be with you!

/nhuman: Help improving my loaf I thought I'd share my loaf and crumb in hopes of improving it.It's an acceptable loaf - decent rise, but I'd like a more airy and even crumb.I used starter at the top of its rise. I felt like I formed sufficient dough strength through lamination and coil folds. I bulk fermented it for ~ 6 hours, during which time it got around 60-70% of its maximum rise (I had a bit of extra dough as a gauge, and only knew from how much that rose by the next morning). When I shaped it, it was fluffy and jiggly. Then I cold fermented it in the fridge for 12 hours.The only thing I can think of is playing around with bulk fermentation time, and try to really push it to the edge.My recipe is:75% white, 20% whole, 5% rye80% hydrationAnything you can tell from looking at this? /nai: Struggling to see a problem. That's a beautiful loaf in all respects. The thing that we home bakers struggle with is consistency.  If we were in a commercial bakery shaping hundreds of loaves every day, then we'd soon figure out that a little less pressure here and a firmer push there give us the result we want.  Baking a couple of loaves a week just doesn't let us build the muscle memory.The best I can say is do the same thing over and over again.  Eventually, you'll arrive at a point where you can feel the dough's response and connect that to the finished bread's result.Paul

/nhuman: how to choose between different levains I've been baking sourdough for some years. I started with a levain from a friend, I tried to create my own a few times and failed, until one day it worked (it was created using AP flour). I've been using this levain (let's call him 1.0) for around 2 or 3 years, it's really strong and stable. This past weekend I decided to create a new levain (let's call him 2.0), now using a mix of whole wheat and rye flour. I'm in Brazil, and it's currently very hot (30-37 celsius / 86-98 fahrenheit). After 3 days my levain was already strong and predictable. In those first 3 days the smell was really bad (something like dirty socks), but after that, it was the best smell I've ever seen on a levain. It smells like banana and milk smoothie. I still haven't baked with the new one, because it's not even a week old. And levain 1.0 never had this amazing smell. A few months ago, when I started feeding it every day and controlling temperature and a higher range (around 27-30 celsius) it started smelling slightly like yogurt. This week it started smelling like grapes, now it has a more subtle smell that I can't describe. It's good, but not amazing.My main question: how can I assess which is the best levain for me to keep for my everyday bake? Should I be tempted by this amazing banana smoothie smell, or should I keep my good old 1.0 levain? /nai: Why choose? Hey I am in Brazil too, just moved to Recife,  any recommendations on good flour brands and where to find rye and farinha integral? In terms of your levains I think the wonderful smell is definitely coming from using more whole grains.  They tend to be more active because they have enzymes in them that the levain eats while often AP flour between the bleaching and ridding of the bran often is just kinda like sugar without the lasting power.  If you don't want to use your old one for awhile it is totally okay to throw it in the back of the fridge and neglect it for a month or even throw it in the freezer and every three months or so take it out and feed and bake with it.  Starters are a lot more resilient than people give them credit for. If you really need to decide do a bake with both of them using the same conditions and see which one you like more (for some ways to think about how to taste bread check out this old post http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16458/how-taste-bread)  The bacteria and yeast in the starter changes based on the flour that you are feeding it.  I bet you that if you took your original starter and started feeding it the same thing as the new one within a few bakes they would be pretty similar.

/nhuman: My bread seems undercooked and dense on the inside and I dont know why. I think it may be underproofed since its getting colder, but I swear I see bubbles all over the place and it seems nice and airy. I did ~200g 100% hydration starter for 1000g flour. I cant remember the amount of water but it was around 75% hydration. I make 500g boules. Im using a good quality high gluten flour. I bake in a dutch oven for 25 minutes covered (10 minutes @ 475F and 15 minutes at 450F) and uncovered @ 450F for 10-15 minutes. By all means it looks nice, it just seems kind of gummy and not open crumbed. I get good oven spring and all that. Starter is raising about 3x initial size. I just cant figure out what it is. I bake straight out of the refrigerator and to be honest i dont love it but I really would like to know whats going on. I ended up letting the dough bulk ferment for 6.5 hours. I have never got a super open crumb but it seems to be getting worse. I normally do this recipe and do 2-3 stretch and folds and 1-2 coil folds. THANK YOU! /nai: That's a short bake for a large loaf. Have you checked the internal temperature bread at the end of the bake?  For a lean bread, which seems to be what you have described, the internal temperature ought to be somewhere in the 205F to 210F range. You may need to extend the uncovered baking time by another 10 minutes, or possibly more, to fully bake the bread. After re-reading your post, I'd also change the baking scheme so that the bread is only baked covered for 15 minutes, then bake uncovered for as long as it takes to get to the proper internal temperature.Paul

/nhuman: How will salt affect an autolyse? How will salt affect an autolyse? If I ad the salt, water, and flour at the same time and let it rest for 1 - 2 hours, how will the salt affect the dough and the process?If I autolyse flour and water and then after the autolyse is complete the salt is mixed in, the dough tightens dramatically and starts to separate. I’m hoping to avoid that.Dan /nai: In Trevor's e-book, Open Crumb Mastery, he discusses this question in the earlier chapters about mixing.  He admits that adding salt to the autolyse actually makes it NOT an autolyse in the strictest definition of the word - he prefers to use the word "pre-mix."But in his process, once mixed, the dough is refrigerated until bedtime then left on the counter to slowly come back to ambient temperature overnight, i.e., 12-16 hours.  His assertion is that although salt is typically left out of the autolyse to avoid the tightening effect that you describe, the long retard and fermentation essentially negate that effect and the dough relaxes nicely by the time he starts the next step.  Dabrownman has a different approach:  he mixes his dough and before he sets it aside for the autolyse he sprinkles the salt on top.  The salt doesn't interact with any but the topmost layer of the dough so the autolyse proceeds normally underneath as expected; and the small amount of moisture that the salt draws out of the dough dissolves it, making it easier to mix in later.  He says he does it this way so that he doesn't forget to add the salt later.  I'm sure you'll agree that both of these bakers produce stellar results, so they've found a way to successfully add salt during this step of the process.  It just depends on your timetable:  if you can wait overnight to bake, try Trevor's method; if you can't wait, try Dab's.      --Mike

/nhuman: My second loaf My first loaf was done in a loaf pan and while it didn't rise well I preferred the crust. I used 2 tin loaf pans and clamps. This time I used a tray of water and it just came out kind of leathery. I'll go back to some sort of steam trap next time. The crumb is OK but I'd like more rise. I took it out at 205°F internal. I'm using a KitchenAid recipe as I've got arthritis. My starter at least triples 5hrs after feeding. I then make a sponge and leave it at 70°F for 4 hrs. Then in the fridge for at least 12 hrs. Then I mix up the bread and proof it for 4 hrs, folding it each hr. Then I shape it and put it in a towel lined colander and let it raise another 4 hrs. Then I bake it at 425 and check temp at 30 min. Once it's at 203-207 I pull it (~38 minutes for the loaf shown which weighed 40 oz). IMG_20200928_144152105.jpg /nai: Do you have a dutch oven by Do you have a dutch oven by chance or a lodge combo cooker? I think this would really help with the crust. You can also look at the tartine recipe https://tartinebakery.com/stories/country-bread - i've seen some folks on youtube that basically follow this entire thing but use a mixer instead with fantastic results.Its higher hydration so itl be sticky when shaping it but I think you'd have some good luck.In the book Chad Robertson mentions that he moved to higher hydration because it was easier and less labor for him since he was running a one man bake shop. So he had trying to keep it easy on his hands and arms in mind in his recipe.You can halve the recipe to get smaller loaves.At the end of the day you made some bread and even though the crust was leathery I bet the taste was good!

/nhuman: Sourdough loaf without a starter As I know several days in advance when I will next bake, do I really need a starter sitting in the fridge?  After all, if it takes 6 days to develop a starter and each day it is fed ~50gm flour ~50gm water at the end of the six days I would have 300gm water and then I could just add the remaining flour to get it to 75% hydration.I have just tried this and the resulting loaf tasted absolutely amazing.  One of the things that I did was 'stretch' the embryonic starter while feeding it so that the gluten was already well developed by the time the last flour was added.I was wondering if anyone else had tried this method? /nai: 6 days to make a starter If all goes according to plan! Your experience this time might not be the same experience next time. Makes sense to save some starter and refrigerate it till the next bake instead of starting from scratch each time. What happens if you wish for another bake 3 days later? The baking bug hits you midweek and there's no starter ready. While your method can work often, even if all goes according to plan, you might not want the bugs which show up in starter in the first few days ending up in the final loaf. Feeding and discarding also serves to nurture only good bacteria and strong yeasts. While it also stops too much starter accumulating you're also providing the ideal environment for the survival of the fittest without any off flavours which might occur. Another reason I can think of is a starter when it first matures is not like a starter which is nurtured beyond that. In other words it continues to improve over time after initial maturation. Why is your method any easier than keeping a starter in the fridge and not continuously making a starter from scratch? Your way is not a loaf without a starter it's many loaves with many starters.

/nhuman: What is causing a dull crust? I've come back for another try at sourdough during these times, and I've had decent success, but I can't achieve the shiny, crisp crusts that I see online. There is a dullness from the flour (combination of rice and whole wheat) used to dust the basket and the crust is just slightly thick. I'm primarily following the Tartine country loaf recipe, although after 4-5 stretch and folds, I let it sit to rise for about 2 hours before an overnight cold ferment. I'm baking straight out of the fridge on a pre-heated stone at 500, using this method for steam: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20162/oven-steaming-my-new-favorite-wayAlso, when I remove steam at 20 min, I move the loaf to a middle rack for another 20-25 min to avoid the bottom burning.From reading other posts, I suspect I might not be getting enough steam. If so, would spraying the top of the loaf before going in help? Or is this loaf actually closer than I think it is given there is decent color? /nai: High humidity I think that the consensuses will be, a lack of moisture (steam) during that crucial first 5-7 minutes of the bake is the root cause. Baking in a covered Dutch oven, until the loaf begins to set,  is proven to keep the bread in a very desirable high humidity environment. In leu of a heavy cumbersome Dutch oven, I have used a simple disposable aluminum turkey pan, over turned onto the stone, with good results.  Now if you fancy making baguettes, that is a little more of an issue. I hope this helps.Kind regards.Will F.

/nhuman: Starter doubling in 5 hours but dough doesn't follow. What gives? My starter is yielding good breads, but I'm still struggling to get assertive signs on bulk fermentation and proofing. Mainly due to lack of teaching and multiple different methods on baking bread. When I bake, I add the levain at peak rise. It always passes the "float test".After a 30 minute autolyse, I knead the dough until a good windowpane develops. This usually takes 30 minutes between resting and kneading. After that I start counting the bulk fermentation phase. It is as this stage that I take a small piece of it and put into a graduated cylinder (aliquot jar) and wait for 25% to 50% rise. But this only comes at around 6 to 7h of bulk!! At 26-30°C ambient temps!  I usually give up at around 4h to 4h30 of bulk, shape it and refrigerate it for a next morning bake. @20% inoculation, is this normal? /nai: Feed regime versus final regime You say that your inoculation is 20%. Is that also your regime for building the starter? Because if that regime is more like 30% or even 50% then the starter is going to double more quickly than your bulk.

/nhuman: Starter too long to rise? Hi all!I've been baking sourdough with the same starter for the past 2 months now and it feels like it is still too slow to double in volume. I feed it in a 1:1:1 ratio with 50% Whole Wheat and 50% All-Purpose flours.It will then take 7 to 8 hours for my starter to double in volume. Same goes for my dough during the bulk. I need to wait at least 9 hours for it to double. So here are my questions:- Is it actually too slow to rise? If yes, what makes it so slow.- Do I actually need to wait for the dough to double in volume during bulk? I am following Tartine's recipe which recommends only 3 hours of bulk fermentation. But doing so lead to underproofed bread (see pictures below), whereas 10 hours leads to much more regular crumb. I am usually doing the bulk fermentation at around 21C (70F). Today I tried to put it in the oven with the light on, where I ended up on an average temperature of 26C (79F) and it only reduced the rise time by ~1hour.4hrs bulk: 10hrs bulk:  Any clue will help :-) /nai: At least it can do the job Even if it is taking a long time. How warm do you keep the starter/dough?

/nhuman: Bread wont open up! Ok so my bread wont open. I mix then give it 3-4 hours bulk ferment then shape and put in fridge overnight, i sit it on bench for 10 then straight in the oven with steam. Really struggling, can anyone help?Thanks. 20200923_082040.jpg 20200923_081122.jpg /nai: Proof a little shorter I think there was not enough food left for the yeast to do get a ovenspring.

/nhuman: Someone uncovered my starter I was going to feed my starter today, and I found someone left the lid off of it and now it's all crusted over. What should I do to it? /nai: Skim the dried out top and discard Then carry on feeding the healthier looking starter as normal making sure there are no dried bits clinging to the side as it could go mouldy.

/nhuman: French flour Hi and thank you for an encellet site.Living in asia make it hard to find quality flour for my sourdough bread. Got hold of some German flour 405, but that kill my starter and I hade to start from scratch again. I also found German bread flour 550 and that looks ok.Recently I found a company that importing French flour Moul-Bie. I was able to by a 25kg bag of Flour Tradition T65, but not very happy with it. My starter really dont like it. It turn very "dead".They have several types the. One is Farine De Muele T80 (grindstone). Anyone have any knowledge of this flour?I dont find much info online about this T80 flourNormally I use 30-40% coarse whole grain wheat and little spelt that I got hold of. Thank you in advanced :) /nai: Wouldn't it have to be... ... some truly terrible flour, to kill your starter? It sounds like you're saying there was poison in there - but surely you didn't buy poisoned flour.

/nhuman: Is my basket too small? How to achieve a good ear? Hi Fresh loaf communityI have a few questions on improving my sourdough. I've been baking sourdough for 2 monthsI currently am finding that my sourdough is rising above the basket. I'm using a 20cm banneton and photo is approx 9hrs proof in the fridge after bulk fermentAutolyse 2hrsBulk fermentation for 4hrs at 25-27degrees. Performed six sets of stretch and folds. First three 15mins apart then remaining every 30minsRecipe below20% / 100g levain90% / 450g white bread flour10% / 50g rye flour75% / 375ml 2% / 10g saltI noticed one I took the sourdough out of the basket it begin to expand. What could this mean?Lastly how do I achieve a good open ear? I think cast iron pot could be too small for my sourdough as I've noticed a crust forming 3_IMG_20200920_091254_compress14.jpg 2_IMG_20200920_091321_compress29.jpg 1_IMG_20200920_100647_compress30.jpg 0_IMG_20200920_111625_compress9.jpg /nai: The banneton is way too small The banneton is way too small. Either reduce the weight of your dough or use a larger banneton. The color and blisters on your bread is excellent.The bread is very close to producing an ear. Keep in mind that boules are a difficult shape to get ears. Batards are much more suited to them.You are off to a great start.

/nhuman: Tartine Country Loaf: Should I feed my starter 4 hours before making the levian? Hi All,I know the Tartine Country Loaf really calls for controlling the acidity in the levian and the final bread. I was thinking that perhaps it would be a good idea to feed my starter about 4 hours before even making the Levian as that is about how long it takes to double in size usually and it the starter itself wont be as sour as about 20 hours later. Would this approach be the best approach? Is this in general the best approach for most sourdough recipes?  Jon /nai: Chad Robertson and Jennifer Chad Robertson and Jennifer Latham have a new audiobook (paper version fall 2021) describing their new method for the Tartine Country Loaf where they do feed the starter twice. Their example is to start at 7:30 AM with 200 g water + 200 g high extraction flour + 80 g of starter, place in 85 ℉ environment, check at 9:30 and if passes the float test, feed 120 g of the booster starter with 300 g water + 300 g high extraction flour. If it didn't pass the float test, check every 10" until it does. This should ripen in 2 - 3 hours. He also starts his autolyse after mixing water and flour, prior to adding levain. He also recommends a bassinage, hydrating just a little at a time during the bulk fermentation.

/nhuman: Amount of Levain Based on Retardation of Shaped Loaves Hello all! This will be my first post in The Fresh Loaf, I'm excited to join this community!So basically my question is this: is there a general rule for the percentage of starter/levain that you would use in a sourdough formula based on how long you want to retard the shaped loaves in the fridge? I've been making bread for my partner who is a chef to use at his restaurant, with mixed results. One of the issues I've been running into is that my schedule is a bit inconsistent, so I've been unable to control exactly for how long the loaves rest in the fridge overnight. In general, it spends about 14-16 hours I would say. I've been using 12.5% levain in my recipes, and sometimes the loaves rise wonderfully when they bake, sometimes not. If anyone with some experience experimenting would this could help out, I would really appreciate it! I've been wanting to experiment myself, but haven't been able to find the time. Thank you all in advance! I've included a photo of one of my better loaves :) /nai: Well, the general rule (and Well, the general rule (and one of the basics) is, less leavening agent = longer times, and vice versa.I always figured x amount of starter/yeast will do something in 4 hrs, 2x would be 2 hrs, .5x would be 8 hrs., if everything else is the same. Is that exact - hardly, but you get the idea.The variables would make it difficult of not impossible to give exact numbers, especially as I would imagine you would be looking for a high level of consistency in the loaves. Keep notes, make changes, track observations and results , see what happens with your starter (no 2 are exactly the same).Hmm, here's a thought, if you can control temps, you have a quick easy solution. Remember, cooler takes longer, warmer takes less - time. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Open Crumb Microwave Sourdough (OCMS) OK, I titled this to get attention and partly in jest, but see for yourself.Wherever sourdough starters are explained, the subject of what to do with discards inevitably comes up.  Crackers and pancakes (the breakfast type, waffles, or savory pan-fried flatbread) are commonly given uses for discard. Employment of refrigeration and stiff starters (fermenting more slowly, fed less often) and/or small starters (less to discard) are strategies for reduction of discard volume and needed attention.  Levain builds--particularly the progressive refreshment of "No Muss No Fuss" stiff, refrigerated starters--can take the place of a few days of once or twice daily feedings in preparation of a cumulative volume of active levain needed for a bake, such that little or none is discarded.I've been perplexed that I've never seen mention of what I do with all of my discards, microwaving them into a single-serving bun.  This is versatile, because it doesn't seem to matter whether the excess starter is early or far past peak and proteolytic.  It's quick and takes just about the least effort for use of a discard.  Being 100% starter and undergoing long fermentation, it can have a great tang.  With high hydration, microwaved discard comes out fluffy and gelatinized much like the crumb of a good loaf.  Granted, there's no caramelization or crunch, but I've always had a soft spot for the soft interior, and one of my kids just lost her front teeth and appreciates a lack of crust anyway.  Please see my introductory post yesterday for our family favorite "soft and squishy" bread.So here is this morning's OCMS, made from a 100% whole wheat liquid starter that had gotten away from me.  This also works well with white flour starters, of course.  I take out a dab to maintain the starter, and to the rest I stir in a generous sprinkle of salt, top with a plate to trap steam, microwave for 90-120 seconds (your time may vary), and let cool for a bit while covered by the glass bowl. 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg We love this bread!  Does anyone else do the same?Best regards,--Tom /nai: Microwave bread still has a big problem in being accepted.  Cake is slowly gaining acceptance baked in the microwave but perhaps because the baking process is not completely understood, it still resides in the realm of magic to many people.  You can find baking bread in a microwave if you look for it.  In particular sourdough?  Well, like you said, no one mentions it.  It's that lacking of crust thing, the crunch, and the  browning aroma filling the house during a bake, but also peer pressure that nuking your dough is somehow cheating and not a natural baking method.  Hmmmm.  And what about sourdough organisms?  Are they always the source of the crumb expansion?  Do bacteria and yeast multiply faster in a microwave?   (No, but I bet they die faster.)You are right on with this post and it is a great way to use and economize with starters and waste.  To reduce acid a pinch of baking soda works wonders and so does adding more flour, salt and water.  The biggest fear (we humans are so controlled by fear) is that when adding these ingredients, especially just the salt, to a ripe starter or discard, that the dough bubbles are all popped in the stirring and a dense bread is the end result.  What about additions like crab, chives, snipped herbs, croutons (altus) and real bacon bits?I have noticed that when nuking freshly mixed flour and water, it is best to let the flour hydrate before heating.  Flours like einkorn & spelt need time to soften or result in a sandy mouth feel.  That wouldn't apply to heating sourdough starter/discard as the flour is long hydrated, but when adding a little fresh flour to a wet starter, my advice is to wait a half hour before baking.I love the simplicity of zapping discards to recover the food.  Thank you so much for posting.I wonder if we need a special section on microwave baking.

/nhuman: Improving the rise and crumb of my loaves My most recent loaf looked like this:  The large alveoli only appear at the end of the loaves. The crumb in the middle is a little tight. The flavor is exceptionally good. There are some large bubbles just under the crust, but I don’t mind these over muchThe formula for this loaf is roughly:Levain:40g mature whole wheat sourdough starter (100% hydration)280g central milling abc+ flour196g waterDough:All of the levain12g salt300g flour (same as levain)216g waterThe sourdough starter is very vigorous. (Will more than triple its volume in 8-10h. I feed at night before bedtime, so I don’t know the time to double.) The levain was mixed and bench rested about 4h and then refrigerated for another 20h or so. I autolysed the dough (minus the levain) for about 30m before introducing the levain. For bulk fermentation, I did 4 rounds of coil folds every fifteen minutes, followed by another 30-45m on the bench. I then shaped into a batard, and put into a linen lined banetton, wrapped the banetton in plastic wrap, and refrigerated for ~14h. (I didn’t record dough temperatures, sorry. I don’t have that part of my process down to a science yet.)Baking was on a pizza stone with copious steam (~1 doz ice cubes + spray bottle). Oven was preheated to 500F for ~1h, then lowered to 450F after ~10m.Problems I know I need help with:I’m pretty sure that the mixing method I used for introducing the levain to the rest of the dough isn’t thorough enough and is responsible for the alveoli at the end of the loaf. (This has happened several times.)The crumb is a little tight. I think I’m underproofing?While I’m getting pretty good oven spring, the diameter of the final loaf is disappointing. I feel like the loaf should probably be spreading a bit more before it springs?There are probably also problems I’m not seeing. What say the experts? /nai: what oven? Welcome to TFL!Oven: Gas? Electric? Convection?  if electric, which heating elements (top, bottom, back wall) does it have, and which of those heating elements are you using? BTW, ice cubes are bad (until you know what you are doing). Better to pour 1 cup boiling or near boiling water, into a pre-heated pan.  Ice cubes rob heat, and take too long to turn to steam, and therefore you steam for too long.  But, cover the oven door glass when pouring,  because if you spill water (even boiling water) on the oven door glass, it will shatter.Crumb shows it was under fermented. crust shows it was likely steamed too much or too long.  Whose/what formula is that?  Link, please?  Or book and recipe name and page number?(Just an aside: Newbies who try to invent their own formula end up taking a lot longer to get good results than those who learn by using an establsihed, tested, published formula.  But if you want to be your own trailblazer, that's fine too.  You are the king/queen of your own kitchen.)Unless you are using an established formula...  For that big a loaf, set oven thermostat to 450 F immediately upon loading loaf, not 10 min later.  Larger loaves generally need to be baked cooler/longer than smaller loaves.  And when you void fhe steam, it might need to be lowered again.Good luck! and bon appétit!

/nhuman: Bread Has Wings...? Hi there! I've been doing home baking for a long time, but I'm pretty new to sourdough. As I'm turning out these loaves, I'm noticing that they have "wings." They're rising really high and kind of flipping out and/or getting kind of crispy and brown where I score them. It makes a sharp edge on the slices. It's not happening with the denser loaves I'm making (rye/spelt)--just the primarily white loaves. Am I doing something wrong, here? Maybe scoring incorrectly? Or is this normal?  Thanks very much! :) /nai: Its actually something that Its actually something that lots aspire to do creating an Ear, usually achieved with the cutting angle of the blade and the depth of the cut. kind regards Derek

/nhuman: Scoring turns to 'tearing'. Hi there,I'm very new to sourdough; in fact, I've only just baked my first loaf.  Thanks to lots of bits and bobs I've picked up here, the starter has been fine, and the general bread making went fine - it's probably the lightest loaf I've ever made.  My question is regarding scoring, and what would cause the tearing I saw.  One score was fine, but the other seemed to be a bit of a pressure outlet: Any tips on avoiding it would be much appreciatedw although it's hardly the end of the world!Russell. /nai: That's your first sourdough loaf? Really? It's beautiful!There's nothing wrong with your scoring. The burst area is exactly what you said: A "pressure outlet." I do not see this as a fault. However, if you really want to prevent this, you could proof your loaf just a bit more. That will reduce the pressure by reducing the amount of oven spring. Note that we are talking about very fine tuning here.However, in my opinion, you should be quite proud of that loaf. Both crust and crumb are lovely. Either you had beginner's luck or you have  real talent for sourdough baking.David

/nhuman: Sourdough starter improving air quality? Hi all!So my question is, can an active sourdough starter kept out in the open improve air quality? If so, how does it accomplish this?A bit of background: I live in a very small apartment, about 350 square feet. It's an old building, poorly maintained by the landlord, and as a result there has been a....sinister smell about the place since I moved in. Nothing I've tried has improved it, it always lingers.Well, about 2 weeks ago, I created my first sourdough starter. It became super active ~4 days ago, and since then I've realized the bad smell in my place has all but disappeared!Before, the smell was sort of musty, generally unpleasant. But now, whenever I walk into my apartment, I'm greeted by clean-smelling air with a slight yeasty undertone!I strongly suspect the starter to be the reason for the improved smell, because nothing else to my knowledge has changed that could've improved it.So what I'm hoping to learn is, why is this the case? I'm sure it must have something to do with the starter feeding on the yeast in the air (?), but I'm having trouble finding anything on google about it.I would love to read any scientific resources someone may be able to offer that might explain in depth how/why active fermentation could improve air quality in a small space.Or maybe the improved smell is just my imagination and the starter has no role here....?I'd love to know. Thanks! /nai: Smell is such a direct sense. Smell is such a direct sense. When you see a thing there are photons mediating between you and it. When you hear a sound, air is mediating between you and the source. When you smell a thing small bits of it are literally up your nose!I'll guess that the sourdough is triggering all sorts of positive signals that are overriding the weaker musty smells. Maybe it is a bit like tinnitus ("ringing" in the ears); if you get into a sufficiently quiet space nearly everyone will hear "ringing". Perhaps in the absence of positive smells the nose focuses on the negative ones?Of course, I'm making all this up. I'm just a computer guy.Gary

/nhuman: Sourdough ear Hey baking connoisseurs, I was thiking of asking a question here..if someone can help me work this out..How can a ear open and spread to both sides like the one in the picture?Usually my loaves have an ear thats opens to only one side.. /nai: Vertical score You need to score vertically in the center, not at an angle. Just baked one loaf like this today for the first time! Have been scoring at an angle usually before.

/nhuman: My First Sourdough Loaf Hello all, glad to have found this site!This is my first go at sourdough. Crust was nice and crispy and the crumb had a slight chewy texture. I would like the crumb to be a little more consistent top to bottom but the taste was fantastic.I look forward to learning a lot from you all. Jeff /nai: Congrats! And welcome to TFL!That loaf is waaay better than most first attempts at sourdough. At least better than most of mine.What kind of oven and steaming method are you using?

/nhuman: Need help crust chewy not crunchy 1B1CF1F7-A9AE-4A53-841A-EE50FE691CAF.jpeg image.jpg (227g) ripe (fed) sourdough starter ( starter at 100 percent hydration) (397g) lukewarm water 542 g of bread flour 60 g of whole wheat flour 1 tablespoon (18g) salt I did the bulk ferment in the fridge for 16 hours. I shaped and brought the dough to room temperature. I baked at 475 degrees for 45 minutes in a long covered bread pan ( pan was preheated at 500 degrees for an hour and then removed lid and baked for 10 minutes. The crust is chewy not really crunchy like a normal sourdough loaf. How is the crumb? I think it might be under proofed. /nai: What comes to mind first is - What comes to mind first is - if the loaf was left in the pan too long you'll get a soggy crust. I remove the loaf as soon as it comes out of the oven and let cool on a rack.

/nhuman: Shape Failing and Gummy Crumb Not sure what I’m doing wrong. I’m doing the FWSY overnight country blonde recipe.  The last two times I have made it, when I turn the dough out of the proofing basket right before baking, it goes completely flat and loses its shape. I decided last time to just “re-do” the shaping step right before baking and that seemed to at least give me a slightly “taller” loaf with a more expected shape. If I baked it without doing that, it would have been completely flat.  Loaf looks ok on the outside and tastes ok but the crumb is really gummy. Any ideas what I should do differently? /nai: Likely overproofed Based on it flattening/losing shape and gummy texture, I would guess this is overproofed. In my experience, the FWSY sourdough recipes will overproof if you follow the overnight bulk ferment unless the temperature is quite low in your house (I believe he says his house is in the low 60's for these overnight bulk ferments). If the temperature is higher where you are, I recommend a shorter bulk phase (~4 hr with dough temp of ~78-82 degrees F), and using a fridge retarding step will also help the dough keep its shape when you take it out of the basket.

/nhuman: Newbie assistance on crust and internal temp appreciated. Hi everyone, very new to sourdough baking, had a few failures early on just following a few youtube vids and finally decided to try and get a bit more serious. I followed the Tartine Country Loaf recipe. The flavor of the bread is fantastic but my two loaves got this solid dark crust on the top and I'm trying to figure out why.Cooked in a dutch oven, preheated to 500 degrees, waited for the dutch oven to get to 500f with the lid right next to it but not on it to help it get up to temp faster. Checked with an oven thermometer inside the dutch oven to make sure it was a solid 500fLoaf in, dropped to 450f, 20 min. Bread very pale but risen. Took lid off for another 20 min, noticed the really dark solid crust ontop. (It does not taste burnt at all).I checked the internal temp, it was 206 and had a little dough when I pulled out the thermometer, I read it should be 212f(100c), so I put it back in the oven with the lid on for another 10 min, it never went over 206f so I pulled it out, thermometer came out clean that time at least.When I floured the banneton I used brown rice flour mixed in with some breadflour, could the brown rice flour have caused the top to take on that color/look? I'm wondering if maybe I put too much in as well, I did try to brush some off before I put it into the dutch oven.Also, is the 212f rule pretty strict for the Tartine Country loaf?Inside Pic:Thanks everyone for your help/guidance! /nai: I think your guess about wondering if maybe you put too much flour in the banneton is correct. Crumb looks good and appears well baked. Maybe check your thermometer for calibration?Appears as though you may have crowded/pinched? the loaf with parchment? when you loaded the DO.

/nhuman: Unknown material in my sourdough I've been baking bread for a little while now but only recently got into sourdough. Been tending to my starter for 2 weeks now and felt it was ready to finally make a loaf or 2.I made my starter mix as well as autolyse and everything was fine up until my first shaping when I found strands of a whitish clear substance with the texture of raw chicken almost. but it looked like some sort of worm.I combed through the starter to make sure there wasn't some contamination and didn't see any of it there.Anyone have an idea of what this is? Sorry if this is a dumb question, It just freaked me out.I've cleaned it up and watched but there is no movement which has me thinking it might be some type of membrane or something. /nai: Update: While indeed worm Update: While indeed worm shaped probing around unfolds it revealing well.. starter mixture. Is it possible this is a gluten protein membrane formation or is the worst case scenario and I need to toss this out? I am not about to eat parasites or worms or anything of the sort. The microscopic stuff I can handle ;)

/nhuman: Lievito Madre Starter Storage Having recently dabbled a little in making Italian style breads, I came across the stiff Italian starter called Lievito Madre.It seems that this is correctly stored wrapped in cloth and tied with twine or submerged under water.I'm just wondering why it is stored like this and whether there would be any advantage to store a "normal" stiff starter under water? (I don't really fancy using the bound cloth method!)And is the water just water, or is there anything added?Lance /nai: You need to speak to Michael mwilson

/nhuman: Just how important is an 'active' starter. i.e. it passes float test. I have a question about soughdough starter. I have been baking sourdough for about a year. When I first started I found it very confusing as each recipe and youtube video I looked at seemed to do something different. Autolyse before adding starter, or add them all together. Complex kneading regime or simple no knead with just a few s&f. Retard in the fridge, or do not retard. Retard on initial bulk ferment or retard on final proofing, preheat oven before putting it in, or cook from cold. etc. etc. I have tried all sorts and basically everything seems to work OK and I did not find the results to be very different with all these variations, only minor differences in the finished loaf, and everything has been perfectly eatable. I never have been a recipe follower in any kind of cooking or baking. I prefer to do something because I feel that I understand what difference it should make in theory.So that brings me to my query on soughdough starter. Every beginners guide without exception emphasises the importance of having an super active starter to get a big rise and oven spring. Of course, that is common sense, nothing would work with an inactive starter!. However what does active mean? OK the float test, but the more I think about that the less I understand it.Let me explain my routine that I have settled on.  I bake every 3 days or so, using 800gm flour and 75% hydration. I feed the remains of my starter  from the previous bake , typically say 20gm, with 40gm each or flour and water, leave for 5 to 8 hours by which time it has reliably doubled. I use 80gm of my starter and put it back in the fridge for next time. No discard. So that is 5% pre fermented flour. After an hour autolys and a very light knead, it goes into the fridge for 12 to 15 hours. A few s& f then into a pullman tin, 5 to 6hrs proofing then into the oven. All very typical I think.So my starter is never more than 3 days since it was last bubbly active, it always responds when fed and warmed to reliably double in volume. Then the first thing I do after mixing it in is to bung it in the fridge and cool it down so it is rather inactive again. Why do I need to get it bubbly active each time before using it? If for instance instead of using it as normal after feeding I put it back in the fridge for a day or two so that it collapsed back down again and became "inactive". What would happen if I used it in that condition ??I cannot see why that would not work just the same as using a normal "active" starter, it is in effect active as far as I am concerned as given food and warmth off it goes again, every time. The only difference is that it would come to life again in a larger volume and as a lower hydration, but so what? I can see that the initial fermentation may take longer to get to the same point, but surely it would get there.Obviously I need to try this but I would be very grateful if someone could fill in the theory which I appear to be missing. /nai: Whatever works! I'm very new to bread baking, but I'd say whatever works for you! Sounds like you are actually feeding your starter and it doubles just before you bake, so you are using an active starter. If it reliably works after a few days in the fridge, that's awesome (I definitely had problems with the starter going sluggish), and having no discard is ace.

/nhuman: Stone ground whole grain hydration I've been using stone ground high extraction and whole wheat from Farmer Ground Flour and while my intuition (based on what I've read and been told) is that the hydration for a miche should be on the cusp of 80%.  However, in practice, anything above 77% has proven to be almost unmanageable and the couche is wet like a baby's diaper in the morning.It stands to reason that a coarser stone ground flour would require a bit less water given the limited surface area compared to conventional roller milled flour, but is that correct considering the whole grain's thirst?I've had modest success with this flour at lower hydration but would like to know if increased hydration or my technique is the limiting factor to a lighter loaf -within the realm of stone ground, whole grain bread. /nai: Very variable Recently milled whole grain flour, specifically stone milled and impact milled, even if sifted, has a wide range of moisture content, depending on field conditions, and storage methods and weather around harvest and milling times. Big time commercial _roller mills_ "temper" their incoming grain to a standard moisture content so as to facilitate removal of the bran layer. After they bag the flour, the big time commercial warehouses and grocery stores the flour spends time in are generally tightly controlled climates.Small stone/impact millers don't make those tempering adjustments, and the storage and distribution is likely not as sophisticated.I mill grain at home, and have experienced a wide range of hydration needs of various wheats.For a while, I was using 90% hydration, now the grain I'm using prefers 86-88%.Some older hard red wheat from Whole Foods bulk section needed less.It seems every bag has its own needs, like it came from a different batch at the mill, a different farm, or a different harvest year.Big commercial mills constantly adjust so that the Gold Medal or King Arthur product is as consistent as can be year to year, and bag to bag. Each type of wheat can be harvested just once a year. But mills operate year round. So the raw wheat berries have to sit in storage until they are needed.Small stone/impact millers take what they get, mill it, maybe sift it, and send it on, without the fine-tuning.  So if the berries gain or lose moisture waiting to be milled, that's just the way it is.Whole wheat also has volatile oils in the bran and germ that evaporate over time, adding another factor.

/nhuman: it was overproof o bad shaping? Hi, there, I'm kind of new with sourdough, and have not get around it yet, the last loaf had big hole in the top.I'm in a very humid City, and warn, around 33c Max 39c Min 27c.This is what a did:950g white flour (7.5 or 8 % of protein, don't remember well).600g water.100g starter (50g of flour and 50g of water)20g salt.I keep the scraps of my starter in the fridge, only taking it out and feed it for bake.I mix the 50g of water and flour to my starter, and in a bowl a mix the 900g of flour, salt, and 600g of water, letting it rest for autolysis.when the starter double the size (around 2-3 hrs), I add it to the dough, and mix it, because is very hot in the here I put the dough in the fridge. 30 min rest in the fridge .10 folds and stretch .2hr rest in fridge .6 fold and stretch .2hr rest in the fridge.6 fold and stretch.this time a put it in a container and mark where the dough was, and made another mark in a 25% rise. I left it in the table until  reached the Mark.after the rise, I final shape, a put it in the fridge for bake next day, 16hrs the dough spent in the fridge before bake, and baked it straight from the fridge. I don't have a Dutch Oven, so I use a metal cookie sheet, and a metal bowl, both I put in the over for preheat. I preheat the oven to it maximum for 40min, and bake for 30min, then I remove the bowl and bake the loaf until desire colour around 40min .I'll really appreciate yours insights. /nai: The goes are a sign of over The holes are a sign of over fermented/proofed. The higher the temp the faster things happen, so cut back on times. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Valais Rye Walliserbrot Tony (CalBeachBaker) did a lovely bake following a recipe by The Rye Baker. Thought i'd give it a try but reduced the rye a little, since rye doesn't agree with me, and replaced the coarse rye with a Heritage Whole Wheat mix. I also omitted the IDY to make it a 100% sourdough. Overall Recipe:Wholegrain Rye Flour 283gWhole-Wheat Flour 168g (Heritage Mix: Einkorn, Emmer and Spelt)Bread Flour 49gWater 451gSalt 9gWalnuts 98gSunflower Seeds 25gSoaker: Overnight 12-14 hoursWater 25gSalt 1gSunflower Seeds 25gPre-Ferment: Overnight 12-14 hoursWhole-Wheat Flour 168gWater 135gStarter 18g (100% hydrated bread flour)Final Dough:Wholegrain Rye Flour 274gBread Flour 49gWater 282gSalt 8gWalnuts 98gAll of Soaker 51gAll of Sponge 321gAll-in-all a nice bake. Lovely crumb and slices very cleanly. Knife is as clean as whistle. My only concern is the walnuts seem to compete with the salt. See my other topic here. Toasts up a treat but next time i'll either toast the walnuts before adding to the dough and/or add some sweetness to compliment them. /nai: Looks good Abe! Looks good Abe!I particularly enjoy this bread with a little goat cheese.Tony

/nhuman: Why do starters peak and fall? We all take it for granted that a starter or levain rises to a peak volume and then starts to fall - but why?There must still be plenty of food left in all that flour. Is it lack of oxygen or is it because of the increase in acidity? Does this perhaps inhibit the amylolytic conversion of the flour starches into simpler sugars - and without those sugars the fermentation will come to a halt.Just wondering....Lance /nai: CO2 I have always assumed that it's the accumulation of CO2, the product of respiration/fermentation, that limits growth in a static (unstirred) system such as our starter jars and crocks.  That is, the bugs transiently "soffocate".  Certainly stirring a peaked starter back down -- replacing trapped CO2 with ambient O2/N2 etc -- and watching it rise again supports that hypothesis.  I also assume they fall because continued proteolysis (and/or hydrolysis of other polymers) weakens the structures of the bubbles responsible for the volume increase that constituted the "rise".  But I wouldn't be surprised if there are other factors that contribute, or even principally cause, the "fall".  It could be that the bubbles themselves are just inherently leaky and when the balance between newly generated CO2 vs leaked out CO2 shifts to the latter, the dome slowly begins to collapse.  I have noticed how just a gentle shake of my starter's jar when the dome is fully peaked will initiate collapse, suggesting that it wouldn't take much of a shift in CO2 in vs out balance to initiate collapse.Tom

/nhuman: How long can you go? Hello everyone!I've been baking sourdough for a little while following the same basic formula with a 30 minute autolyse (90% white bread flour, 10% rye flour, 68% hydration) after which I then mix in the starter (about 15%) and salt, but I've been playing around with bulk fermentation and final proof times as I'm still trying to find that 'sweet spot' between under and over fermenting/proofing as we come out of winter and the temperatures start getting warmer.For this week's bake, life happened, things didn't go as planned and I ended up sticking my dough in the fridge after an 8 hour day time room temp BF and leaving it there for another +/- 16 hours before finally getting around to baking it. This is a lot longer than I've ever let dough go before and I was worried that it would be overproofed but it ended up being one of my nicest loaves - deliciously browned crust, slightly tangy and the best ear I've been able to get so far. And that got me thinking - how long can you push the autolyse, bulk fermentation or final proof (or a combination of all three) without your dough overproofing? Or what is the upper limit for % pre-fermented flour (still not completely sure about this term so maybe this is the wrong way to ask this question) and still being able to get a good loaf out of it? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! /nai: I don't distinguish between I don't distinguish between autolyse and ferment, but I can say I have left dough in the fridge for 4 days without issue - I'll make a big batch of dough for pizza and pull of what I need, something came up and I got delayed, the last pizza was 4 days later. I use a very high gluten flour and I'll tell ya, I stretched that dough to paper thinness (I got out of hand stretching it, but it was so easy, and fun I couldn't stop).I would recommend folks play around with this - if you really want to develope gluten (outside of mechanical manipulation - stretch and fold is not considered to be a good form of mechanical manipulation), give it time. I will note that the flour I use is 17% protein - pretty high. Lower protein would require shorter times and of course, starter/yeast would need to be adjusted. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Proofing Timing Hello all - I need some clarification on when to begin the measurement of the rising of the dough in order to get the amount of rise that will not result in under or over proofing. I would like to achieve a 25% rise.  Should I begin the start of the measurement after the addition of the levain - or - after the completion of the stretch and folds.  Since fermentation begins with the addition of the levain, my concern is that over proofing would occur if one waits to the completion of the stretch and folds to begin measuring.  Since I normally retard in the frig there is even more fermentation occurring adding to the rise.  I think that I am over proofing my dough resulting in less than optimal oven spring and would like to address this variable. Thank you! /nai: Fermenting starts, at least Fermenting starts, at least the timing of it, when you add the starter. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Adapting Yeast Recipes for Sourdough Hi everyone,Now that I am happy with my sourdough loafs I've started on a new project that's been going on in the back of my head.For years now, I love love love baking with yeast dough and I think I became quite proficient at it. Usually I use fresh bakers yeast but I don't shy away from dry yeast either.My process usually I either activate the dried yeast in lukewarm liquid for ten minutes, or make a small "starter" with the consistency of cream that I let double when using fresh yeast.I then add all of this to my other ingredients, let this rise until double and passes the proof-test (usually takes me about 1 hour, sometimes on cold days up to 2), shape and let rise again (this takes 30-60 minutes with yeast for me).Now I want to adapt some or all of my recipes to use my sourdough starter instead. So after researching I found that the best ratio is usually 10-20% starter and reduce liquid and flour by the equivalent amount.I've now tried four different recipes, adjusted various things during them, and they were all a failure. The dough did not hold it's shape, it was more liquidy (similar to my first sourdough loaves if you look at my post history) and even though I did not ferment for too long in my opinion, they showed signs of over-fermentation. They also did not rise in the oven - I got bricks. Let me illustrate this on my last two attempts:The first one I used a fool-proof recipe I have been using with yeast for months now - https://www.bonappetit.com/recipe/easy-no-knead-focaccia - one of the most delicious and bubbly focaccias. Usually this dough is quite fluid but still holds it's shape and when baked it becomes very tall and airy and spongy.So to this recipe, I added 100g mature starter (16%), reduced flour and water by 50g and did everything else like I usually do with this recipe but with longer proof-times. So at step 3, I put it in a turned-off oven overnight to ferment and in the morning the dough had doubled, but it was very liquid, almost pour-able. I moved it onto the sheet tray like I usually do, making sure not to break the air bubbles inside and tried letting it rise once more. But no matter how long I waited, nothing happened, the dough barely moved at all. So after 6 hours I decided to bake it - I got a dense brick, with great flavor. All of that usual airiness and sponginess was not present.So I figured my issue might be the over-night fermentation. I proceeded with my mom's brioche recipe that I've always made out of yeast dough. I again added 100g starter, reduced flour and milk by 50g each and made the dough. This time, after mixing the dough and getting my window-pane I immediately put it in the fridge overnight. This morning, I took it out, shaped it and let it "rise" at room-temperature. It did not rise, it just "melted" into a puddle. Usually this dough holds its shape very well. After 4 hours, I baked it and again - well flavored brick. Now the interesting part in all of this to me is that my "proof-test" of poking it with the finger and looking at how it springs back does not work for the second rise. At all stages and all times of the dough, except during the initial rise, the indentation just stays there - as if it was overfermented. What am I doing wrong? How can I change or adapt my yeast recipes to work with sourdough?Does a sourdough not work with a second proofing? Do I shape directly and just let it rise once?  And I know a lot of people say "just use trusted sourdough recipes" - but that's not what I want. I want to be able to take any recipe and turn it into a successful sourdough recipe.Please let me know what you think :) /nai: Patryk, you’re off to a good Patryk, you’re off to a good start. The bread was probably way over fermented. We need to know the temperature in order to better help.Your linked formula calls for 625g flour and your levain used 50g flour. 50/625=.08Your adjusted formula used 8% Percent of  Pre-fermented Flour.If you use the Percentage of Pre-fermented Flour method, the hydration of your levain is up to you. As long as the PPF is known the levain can be wet or dry, it’s up to you.Experimentation will give you a ball park idea of the fermentation time at a particular temperature.If you wasnted a shorter bulk ferment you could increase the Percentage of Pre-fermented Flour (PPF) to 25% and things would move faster. Keep in mind that the longer your dough ferments the better and more complex the flavor. 8% s a good place to start.

/nhuman: Sourdough at scale I've been making sourdough for a few months now and getting close to something I'm really happy with.  So, I'm going to do ~100 loaves for Father's Day in September (down here in Australia) and deliver them to friends and family.I know to scale the recipe up, am renting a commercial kitchen, etc etc.  The thing I can't quite work out is how I'll proof the loaves overnight.  I don't have 100 bannetons, or even 100 bowls that I can use.  Can I just put them close together on a tray and leave them to proof overnight?  How is this done in bakeries?  I'm sure they don't have thousands of bannetons lying around?Thanks in advance for your help!Ollie /nai: Close together you will Close together you will probably get sticking and lose shape. Bakeries actually do use lots of bannetons. An alternative that could keep your costs down is to do batards or other "rectangular" like shape, and put them on a couche to separate and keep structure. This is how baguettes are done and other shapes, just not best for a boule.

/nhuman: Third attempt and finally happy :) Hi All,I wanted to give you an update as you helped me so much <3After my first two failed attempts:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65218/dough-spills-out-too-much-not-just-sourdoughhttp://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/65271/discouraging-oven-spring-issue Today, I finally got the result I've been looking for - a beautiful, beautiful loaf with so much flavor it's to-die-for:@idaveindy: I followed your first suggestions of using 773g of the bread flour and not use the "AP flour". I also moved the hyrdation back to 72% as you suggested. Thank you so much for this :)I also tried to form and shape "tighter" loafs which definitely helped as well.So yeah, not sure where this takes me, I was thinking about making a completely white loaf now, with only the starter having whole wheat flour, and maybe increasing hydration for a bit more challenge hahaOnce again, thank you! :) /nai: great-looking loaf! Thanks for the follow up.  Looks great!  Congrats!

/nhuman: Toaster Oven Sourdough - BIG SUCCESS I've come across a few posts questioning what's the best way to create steam in a toaster oven (or counter top oven) because their dutch ovens do not fit in there.  I asked myself, "why not start it in the dutch oven, stove top.  then finish it in the small oven?"  So, this was my experiment.The tools:-Lodge 3.2qt skillet/dutch oven cast iron set-Breville counter top/toaster oven- laser temp gun The bread:- Whole wheat sourdough (a la Sune / Foodgeek - Beginner's Sourdough Recipe)"Those were the words... this is the experiment"First I preheated the Lodge dutch oven top and bottom on stove top on high heat separately (I have a high output stove top, but i think any home stove should do).  At the same time i preheated my Breville oven IMG_3882.jpg IMG_3883.jpg My goal was to get the Dutch oven close to 500F.  Using the laser temp gun I monitored on each side.  I found that the sides where heating up higher than the center bottom because of how the burner ring is shaped.  That is a good thing for this.  I was actually able to get them above 500F. IMG_3892.jpg IMG_3895.jpg 626F is probably too high.. i let it cool back down a bit.  But the plan is to use the deep side as the bottom as it will retain and conduct more heat. I will keep it on stove with low heat to maintain the temperature.   IMG_3896.jpg IMG_3897.jpg This is the scored dough loaded into the deep side. I've placed a double layer of foil and a parchment under it.  my concern is that the bottom might burn due to the direct heating under it. A few spritz of water and the lid goes on.Both the top and bottom start at 500F.  I monitor the temp periodically and adjust the burner as needed.  Start:    Top 500F     Bottom 500F5 mins:  Top 360F    Bottom 380F  (increased heat after)10 mins: Top 290F   Bottom 430F (hindsight, this is too much)15 mins: Top 250F   Bottom 390F20 mins: Top 230F   Bottom 390FThen.... the moment of truth... IMG_3899.jpg HUGE oven spring!  Look at that ear on that guy!  Everything appears to be on track. The bottom was looking a little brown but nothing tragic. The problem is fitting it into the small oven with that ear now.Small oven is preheated to 450F on bake which is the highest it will go. but i noticed that when i set it to 450F, the top heating element goes on as well.  I played around with it a bit and concluded that under 450F the top elements do not come on in Bake mode.   IMG_3900.jpg Barely fits in there.  Just to be safe i put a small piece of aluminum foil just over the ear. Baked for 30 minutes. rotating every 7 minutes or so.  at the end of 30 mins, it wasn't quite dark enough yet, so i went on for another 5 with the foil removed from the top.Here is it: IMG_3912.jpg Great oven spring from the dutch oven segment. nice little blisters from the spritz and steam. Good shine. Ear didn't get burnt too much. (I do like that little bit of char).  Overall big success!Only issue I had, and it was my initial concern is that the bottom would burn.  it did get a little bit too dark. but certainly edible. Nothing too tragic. IMG_3909.jpg Lesson learned here is that I could have used another layer or two of foil under (i thought about sandwiching a few layers of foil , parchment alternating) and that i shouldn't let the bottom get above 400F on the stove heat. i think 360F is a good goal.  I lasered the dutch oven bottom in the regular oven and it reads around 360F range even when set to 450F heat.As this is an experiment, I baked another loaf in the regular oven inside dutch oven as we do.  From the same batch of dough for comparison.  Same 20 minute in the dutch oven, then uncovered for 35 minutes. IMG_3921.jpg The one on the right is our toaster oven baby (dressed with a little more rice flour).  The one on the left in the regular full sized oven. Overall very similar.  The full sized oven one seems to have a bit more spring, but not significant.  Both attained good color, good shine, and little blisters.  The full size oven one had a nicer bottom that's not charred, but i think we can remedy that.So, there you go. You don't need a big oven to achieve a solid sourdough loaf.I will post a crumb shot when it's completely cooled down. /nai: wow What a clever idea. Great results! I am interested in trying it though I don't have a temperature gun.

/nhuman: Could This Be Why? I was reviewing my sourdough documentation, specifically U.S. patent #US3826850A. The patent document describes the traditional San Francisco sourdough process. Excerpts below:"The traditional method for making sourdough bread, otherwise 'known as San Francisco Sourdough Bread, is time consuming, cumbersome and impractical for most commercial bakeries."Yeah, tell me about it."1. Maintaining a continuous starter sponge comprised of two parts (40%) previous sponge, two parts (40%) flour and one part (20%) water by rebuilding every eight hours or three times a day""Three sponge transfers a day and long proof times are necessary in order to obtain proper acid development and leavening."Aha! This could explain why, after making all the right moves, my sourdough never turns out as deliciously sour as the old-school breads of yore. Keep in mind that these big sourdough factories in San Francisco and Oakland were turning out thousands of loaves per day, baking 24/7. They used a stiff starter which was refreshed every eight hours.Baking 24/7, they likely used up the sponge as quickly as they made it.I don't bake 24/7 so my starter sits in the fridge for days on end until I need it to bake. Therein lies the difference! The strong San Francisco sour was due in large part to the thrice-daily refreshment of the starter sponge. This may explain why my home-made sourdough never has the sourness I desire.The only way I've found to achieve the old-school sour is to way overproof the dough, and of course this results in an unsatisfactory loaf. /nai: Hi Dough hooker  i think you Hi Dough hooker  i think you have just about provided your own solution instead of over proofing your final dough try overproofing your Sour dough culture build, Quite easy to do really take a small amount of your culture and give it the treatment , feed it instead of 3 times a day once or even missing a day here and there, take notes though so you know how you got there, make sure you still maintain your original culture too just in case you want to revert back to it. The other way might be to reserve a bit of dough from  one bake and incorporate it in the next keeping it under and in flour might also be worth trying too. Good luck in your quest Kind regards Derek

/nhuman: Sourdough dense not rising and gummy texture Hi everyone!I’ve just started making sourdough and every time the bread comes out dense and heavy and when I cut into it, it still feels like it’s a little wet/undercooked inside and there aren’t any air bubbles. The first time I cut into the bread a few minutes after I took it out of the oven and then realised I need to let it cool down but even after waiting 3 hours with my other loaves I still get the same result. It’s currently cold in Australia so I’m wondering if I need to extend the bulk fermentation time or if I need to cook it for longer? I’m using the farting bread recipe and even left the bread in the oven an extra 10 minutes this time. I’m just worried I overcook it. The starter seems to be fine to me, it rises and has a lot of bubbles. Any help is appreciated! /nai: Please provide some additional details ie, Recipe, mixing times, BF time, retardation time, shaping technique, baking time, temperature and method. Also provide info about your starter/levain.

/nhuman: Measuring Percentage of Rise of Bulk Fermentation Hello - I need some guidance on the timing of the calculation of the rise by marking my proofing container.  I am unsure if I should begin the marking at the time of the first stretch/fold during bulk fermentation - or wait until the end of the stretch/fold period which can be two to three hours later.  I am aiming for a 25% rise at the end of the BF and am concerned about over or under proofing if I calculate it incorrectly.  Thank you! /nai: When you finish mixing is When you finish mixing is when you need to make the mark.  You can just put it in the container, make the mark, then put it back wherever you normally keep it for stretch and folds.  Then put the bowl on your scale, fill with water to the mark, hit tare, then add 25% more water - that should be your second mark.

/nhuman: Problems with Bryan Ford's Coco Rugbrød bread. Hello again, Just made Bryan Ford's Coco Rugbrød. It seems counter intuitive, but his recipe call for a cold retard of the dough prior to final shaping and baking the next day. So, I followed the recipe anyway, After a 14 hour cold retard (it should have been 12 hour) - but that would have meant me waking up at 2:30 am - anyway, I started to shape the cold dough just as per the recipe, it starts to crack when I rolled it. It was breaking up in chunks, so instead of a perfectly round log, I had a square cracked log. I tried to shape it using the tension roll as much as possible and let it proof for another 4 hours. After 4 hours, it didn't rise that much and the cracks are still there. So I just baked it. With cracks and all. Has anybody had the same experience here with this recipe? I looked at his other recipes in the book that has the same cold retard method and start to wonder would I have the same problem with them as well?Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.Ed. /nai: 18 hour ferment+proof seems 18 hour ferment+proof seems like a long time.  Overproofed?

/nhuman: Troubleshooting bulk ferment I'm fairly new to sourdough bread and need some help troubleshooting.I'm making a recipe I've made every week with good success for the past month. After adding the starter, I came back to start stretch and folds and found that the dough is wetter and smaller in volume than usual. I'm not 100% sure, but it's possible I forgot to tare the scale while adding different flours and ended up with 100g less than I intended. Is it possible/advisable to try to add any amount of that flour in at this stage? The recipe calls for 100g whole wheat flour, 400g bread flour, 100g starter (100% hydration), and 325g water.This puts it on the low end of high hydration at 68%, which is what drew me to this recipe after I got disappointing results from higher hydration attempts. If 100g of flour is missing, that would make the hydration 83%. I know that's not unreasonably high, but I'm not sure the flour I use can handle that level of hydration.What's the best way to salvage this loaf? Add extra flour now (maybe just 50g to split the difference), or take more steps to strengthen the gluten than I would have had to at a lower hydration? /nai: weigh the dough now. The dough should weigh 925 g now.  925,  minus what it weighs now, should be equal to the missing flour.Go ahead and add it back in.

/nhuman: score never opens up wide I've been baking sourdough quite frequently for 3, 4 months now, 1-3 times a week. After reading lots of posts here, started feeding my starter more frequently, usually once or twice a day, depends on how the starter has grown from the last feeding. I live in NZ, still kinda winter here, kitchen temp is usually around 18-20 during the day, down to 12-14 at night.So far I've never had any luck with a really opened up score. Picture below is one just came out of the oven 10 minutes ago. It's 70% hydration,  recipe is from a youtube video as below:128g Active starter (100% hydration)247g Water375g bread Flour 12g Sea salt It's a no knead. After mixing the dough, I let it sit for around 1 and half hours, then folded it on the bench for a few minutes, just to create some surface tension. Then back to the bowl and fermented for around 6 hours. It probably grew by 50% I would say. Then shaping and into the banneton, no bench rest (that's what the guy in the video did!). Heated up the oven for about 50 minutes at 250c. No dutch oven, pour two cups of water into a baking pan that heated up along with baking stone.  I've tried other recipes with different hydration, I've tried preheating oven longer (once 3 hours, by accident), I believe my starter is active enough, I've tried full knead the dough, stretch and fold, slap and fold, nothing seems to work,  my score just never opened up widely like those beautiful insta pictures. What am I doing wrong here??? Help please.... /nai: See this... post by DanAyo at: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61181/tip-have-faith-oven-springBTW, nice Refrigerator Art.

/nhuman: Sad beginner with a dense, irregular crumb I'm a new sourdough baker and not sure where I went wrong with my first loaf. I followed this recipe to a tee: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/Here's my sad, dense crumb: The outside looked better than the inside:I'm wondering if it had something to do with the fermentation? Because the starter seemed really active. This was after 4.5 hours:Any advice on how I should proceed in the future would be greatly appreciated. Maybe I should try a more hydrated dough? This recipe was 72%, which was recommended for a beginner. /nai: First of all, good job on First of all, good job on your first loaf! I'm sure that bread still tasted great.This actually looks a little underfermented to me. An over fermented dough wouldn't have that rise or "oven spring". Slightly underfermented doughs tend to have an irregular crumb and rise, like in your picture. The fermentation is really the key here to get the crumb you're looking for.You don't have to worry about the 72% hydration, that's fine. In this case, I'm pretty sure that all you have to do is let it ferment a little longer. Unless you happened to use cold water when you mixed it?I just made a video on what I think is the easiest way to make sourdough as a beginner, I hope this can help you:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUf1WgyPOx4Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll gladly help you out! Best of luck!

/nhuman: levain pain de campagne HI and help!!!  I consider myself a fair to good bread baker, having done it for years.  I'm into the various starters in Flour Water Salt Yeast  by Ken Forkish.  I've moved past bigas and poolishes, and am trying to perfect my French loaves using levain.  The levain is great: stringy, smelly, bubbly and delightful.  After mixing the dough, letting it go through its many folds, and rises, and then proofing it overnight in the basket, the problem starts.  It looks great after proofing for 16 hours as per the recipe, but upon release, it collapses on the counter.  I still put it in the preheated Dutch Oven, and it is edible, but it is by no means the beautiful crusty loaf i am after.  What am I doing wrong?  Can anyone help?Lisa /nai: Sure sounds like it's over Sure sounds like it's over fermented/proofed. The obvious thing to do is cut back both and see what happens. Trying to match times in a recipe is usually a not so good idea. As everything is different, any times given are at best a general guideline. Good luck and enjoy!

/nhuman: Seeking Better Spring & Ear Hello! I have been baking sourdough about 6 months. I have struggled more in the summer months with the heat affecting bulk.But I am still disappointed, no matter what I do lately, with the middling oven spring and ear. I am keeping dough at about 80-81 degrees for a 3-3.5 hour bulk. 75-78% hydration, 10% whole wheat, 90% bread flour (I do other mixes but  right now just trying to get a basic bread to spring more), 20% starter (100 g for 500 g of flour). I do a 30 minute autolyse withfolds every 30 minutes, I do some extra folds before adding salt. I think my starter is fine.I always do a float test on the dough when I think bulk is over.I think the color looks ok? And crumb is ok, I wouldn't mind it more open but it's not bad. The flavor is NOT overly sour so I don't think I'm over-fermenting. My guess it either under-fermenting or it's my shaping?? I do a rounded pre-shape and then I shape a few different ways but try to get it taut as I can. Sometimes the dough is a bit sticky underneath so I can't pull it around the board. IMG_6225 (1).jpg Looking at the attached pictures what more should I be doing to get more spring and ear?? Height of inside of loaf is only 3", I feel like it should be more like 4-4.5". I use a 9" round banetton, Lodge Dutch oven heated for one hour, 450-475 degree oven.Help is appreciated! /nai: Everything you are doing Everything you are doing sounds good. Three areas to look at:are you developing gluten sufficiently well? Have you checked for a good dough windowpane?are you shaping nice and tightly? Check out the King Arthur videosis the banneton the right size - pretty full after final proof?Lance

/nhuman: Is this mold? (new starter, day 2) I just started a new starter (ba dum ts) and today when I went to perform the first discard and feed, I noticed a small spot that looked yellowish to me.My process:Day 1:Mix 20 g whole wheat flour + 20 g water (bottled)Day 2 (after 24 hours):Discard all but 20 g and feed 1:1:1 (same flour and water)And that's when I noticed that yellow spot. Now I'm confused because it had been only 24 hours so it couldn't be that I kept using a dirty jar or anything.Picture: https://i.imgur.com/UKQjtMJ.jpgIs this mold? Is it out of hope? For that 20 g of starter that I saved, I didn't include that part. I tried examining it throughout and didn't find any other yellow spots underneath. /nai: Looks like the air bubbles of Looks like the air bubbles of the yeast and bacteria beginning to eat and thus activate your starter.

/nhuman: 'Gummy' Texture My bread achieved a decent crumb, OK rise - but the texture is gummy (or some might say - moist).  My bread knife has to be cleaned after each slice.  Used Tartine recipe, substituted half the whole wheat with spelt, increased the hydration to 80%, used Rubaud mixing method, autolysed for two hours, retarded for 10 hours.  Baked using Tartine temperatures until internal temp was 206 degrees.  Mildly sour with rich taste.Ideas? Is this a normal occurrence with the use of spelt? /nai: Need crumb shot really need to see the crumb.  Could be underdeveloped.  Also spelt does not need a higher hydration as it doesn't absorb the water like WW.    Spelt can also develop very quickly and over ferment.

/nhuman: Looking For Things to Work On For Flavor, Sour, Tang, Etc. Hi All, Noob poster here.I try different recipes, and get bland, not flavorful and not sour bread. Salting correctly. I use digital scale. I retard all my loaves. Question: what areas should I focus on getting correct, or doing carefully, in order to get any flavor and particularly that sour flavor? I am retarding loaves in the back of my fridge, according to time specified in recipe. I just checked the temp of my starter, which I keep back there, and it's 36 degrees. Does a 36 degree retard temperature inhibit the bacteria that produce the sour flavor?  I have not been religious about using my starter at a particular point in its cycle. I will use it when it has doubled or tripled, but not waiting for it to come to a stop. Do I need to pay more attention to where the starter is in its cycle before I use the starter?I have tried a few times to use a high proofing temperature of 85 degrees. This did not make a sour loaf, but it did make bread that made the roof of my mouth and tongue feel like I had been eating a lot of sour/acidic candy--sort of irritated the tissues, if you will. But no sour flavor.  I am making loaves that are not underproofed, they have plenty of oven spring with no fool's crumb, pretty even crumb density. I always put my loaves in the fridge.  Thanks for any directions you can send me in! Love this site. /nai: sour & acetic vs lactic To get more tang, and lactic vs acetic, read the comments by Debra Wink on this thread:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14913/very-liquid-sourdough--Further reading elsewhere:https://truesourdough.com/best-temperature-for-proofing-sourdough-full-guide-how-to/The  following is probably the simplest, without the detailed science:https://truesourdough.com/18-ways-to-make-sourdough-bread-more-or-less-sour/--http://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-or-less-sour-part-2/

/nhuman: Help! Is my starter contaminated? Heres a picture of my starter with a streak at the top left: https://imgur.com/LfwTVz8I started my first starter two weeks ago, and last week it finally seemed ready and I baked my first loaf which was great. I fed it one more time and waited a few hours till it doubled in volume before moving it to a clean container and into the fridge.I just took it out of the fridge so I could use a little bit to make a levain, and found this streak on the surface. Is this a sign that it needs to be thrown out?I dumped the part with the streak out and just mixed together 20g of starter with equal parts water and flour for the levain. Are there any signs I should look out for tomorrow morning to see if it's gone bad? Thanks in advance! /nai: What color? I think I see it, but it's not obvious.What would you say is the color of the streak?

/nhuman: Sourdough discard ——> active starter? It appears my sourdough starter that I had been storing in the fridge and feeding weekly has gone missing. Not sure if someone in my family accidentally threw It out .... ? but what I do have left is my container of discard. can I use some of the discard to create new starter!? Or do I have to start all over again from the beginning ?? thank you for your help! /nai: Add a small amount to a lot Add a small amount to a lot of flour/water - like 10 to 1 ratio - and leave it for a few days, it'll come back. Enjoy!

/nhuman: Food for thought This is my stiff rye culture, also known as a Sourdough, Mother, Starter, Levain etc. This is the only culture I maintain. I feed it once a day first thing in the morning and it lives on my kitchen countertop. I follow Jeffrey Hamelman’s feeding regimen for which I have made a quick reference chart below. The composition of the feed varies slightly according to the season. When I intend to bake the next day, I convert the discard from the mornings feed to the required levain for the bake over two feeds. You can see the resultant white liquid levain, fully ripe and ready to mix into the dough.This method ensures a very lively levain with minimal waste. I hope this provokes some thought and discussion. IMG_20200529_194616.JPG rye feeding.jpg /nai: That is similar to how I That is similar to how I maintained mine, but it had 70% hydration instead. I would dissolve a portion of it completely in warm water (like very light milk) to hydrate a biga to make a dough. I believe this stiff dough method would work great if the starter had matured and strong as I am not sure if this would work okay with a new and weak starter. I no longer maintain a SD starter as instant yeast and yeast water work much better for me for now.

/nhuman: A question (or two) about starter feeding- rye starter Hello all - I've read/heard conflicting things about what to feed a starter. Mine (Ella) is a couple months old and began as a straight rye starter. Once I felt like it was mature enough, I started doing a 50/50 rye/AP feeding. I've heard you should feed a starter what it's made of - so essentially rye in this case. And I've also heard that once a starter is mature enough, you should switch to white flour because the starer can't eat the endosperm/germ of hardier flour and so when feeding it white flour you're feeding it exactly what it wants to eat. That said, I tried to do an off-shoot starter using Ella to seed it of just feeding AP and nothing happened.. it did not want to "grow." Instead, next time I slowly backed off 50/50 rye/AP until I got down to 10% rye and 90% AP for feedings. It's doubling now, but still not seemingly as strong as when it was all rye. Thoughts?A SECOND question is along a similar vein, but relative to bread.. If I have a 100% rye starter.. and I use it to make a white or mostly white bread (but not rye), will it be less effective? I'm thinking that if my attempt at an all AP/BF feeding resulted in not much reaction with my starter, does that mean that a rye starter won't be as effective raising an all/mostly white dough?TIARandi /nai: Once a starter is established Once a starter is established, you can feed it whatever. Doesn't seem as lively - it won't be - the starter may be thinner than normal (if using same feed ratios and schedules), and weight rise as high. I've airways found it beneficial when changing something like food, to work it in little by little over a few days or a week. This way you can observe and note the differences and what you're likely to see in the future.Second question - no. Although what you'll see when using all white flour may be different, it'll be the flour not the starter. Enjoy!

/nhuman: What is best cover to use on starter Hi all, I am new to the Forum. I am trying to do my first gluten free starter using Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free 1:1 flour. What is the best cover to use on my jar? Is a coffee filter ok? Thanks so much for all help and suggestions. /nai: Anything that allows gas Anything that allows gas exchange, but no dirt or flies do drop into the jar. Cheesecloth, coffee filter, kitchen towel, lid loosely on top...

/nhuman: Starter Rising too quickly My starter was in the fridge for 2 weeks while I was away, and since doing 2-3 1:1:1 feeds over the past week it's rising very fast, sometimes tripling in 4 hours.  My main concern with this is accumulating so much discard, but I'm also curious if a slower rising starter is better.  Would a 1:2:2 feed slow things down as it would need to eat more?I would guess the temp in my Brooklyn home is a humid 72-80 degrees most days recently.  Thanks for any help! /nai: When its about doubled after feeding. Stick it into the fridge for a week.  :)

/nhuman: Have you ever had a flour that just doesn't work with your starter? I bought some new flour and my starter has risen less and less each time. I honestly think its effectively dead. Has anyone experienced this? It's a regular, non organic bread flour from a supermarket. /nai: Don't give up Try adding a little bit of stoneground rye or whole wheat and refresh the starter several times until it shows signs of life.Good luck.

/nhuman: Observation: Durum, acid and oxidation Can durum flour be over-oxidised by hand kneading?Yes. I managed to turn the golden yellow flour near white with hand kneading alone. The reason can also be attributed to the high acidity and firm nature of the my starter at the time. It was too acidic and acidity facilitates oxidation.Kneading this dough required serious effort. So much so I had to develop a new technique. Durum is highly tenacious to begin with and the acid just makes that worse.I got close to full development and this durum dough managed to triple in volume which you wouldn't think were possible with this flour.Such amazing flour and I killed it! Look away now if bleached durum is offensive (I know I hate myself!) /nai: You've pulled off the near impossible. With your golden hands turning golden grain white!  The carotenoid police already have a APB out on you.  Now, about those callouses, did they turn white also?Come ben sai, mi piace molto il grano semola,

/nhuman: Tip - Have Faith in the Oven Spring Notice how non impressive this dough looks in the banneton just before taking out to score. It hit the stone looking like a pan cake. It looked disappointing. I now know, my biggest deterrent to oven spring, bloom, and ears was over fermenting. I believe the reason I consistently over fermented the dough was because I thought the dough needed huge amounts of gas to rise high and produce that illustrious open crumb. That idea is wrong...Take a look at the dough before and after being baked.   All great bakers know this. It only took me ~25 years to learn. “Have faith in OVEN SPRING”For the best viewing experience, use  THIS LINK.Let’s take another look at another bread. For the best viewing experience, use THIS LINK.Update - I recently wrote the following in another post and thought it would be of value here.Just recently I started doing in-oven slo-mo video. It has taught me some valuable lessons. After bread baking for over 2 decades I came to the realization that my dough is constantly over proofed. I believe I fermented it too long because I wanted that precious gas. But, slo-mo taught me different. In order to produce the phenomenal loaves that some baker constantly produce, it is necessary to get tremendous oven spring. If the dough is allowed to exhaust its gas producing ability BEFORE the oven, the massive oven spring can’t happen. The energy was expended during the ferment.I encourage you to try (what most people consider) under bulk fermenting. Once the BF dough shows a slight dome and the upper sides are curved upwards slightly, shape it and retard overnight. Not longer than 12 hours or so. Spritz, slash and bake it cold in a preheated hot oven.Retardation - a fact that many bakers don’t take into account or are not aware of. A dough at room temp or warmer takes about 4 hours of refrigeration before it normalizes to 38F. During this time fermentation continues until it reaches 38F and then slows considerably. When the dough is cold the gas is absorbed into the dough because cold temperatures reduce the volume of the gas. In other words, the dough is not plump from the gas, but none the less the gas is still very much there waiting to explode when it hits the heat. Heat makes gas increase in volume.Study the videos on this page, paying special attention to the second one. If you watch closely, you’ll notice that the skin near the slash MUST RUPTURE before an ear is form. This takes a lot of gas!Most of us are grossly over proofing/over fermenting our dough.Danny /nai: I can't wait! Type like the wind!

/nhuman: Durum semolina and pistacchio I enjoy testing flours and ingredients. These days I have been baking with Durum Semolina. I like the sweetness and the crustiness of the bread you can make with this flour.This time we followed this formul/nai:Sourdough: 1% starter 10% stoneground flour (Caputo Tipo1) 10% water. 12-14 hours at room temperature.Final dough: 60% durum semolina (Caputo Semola Rimacinatta), 30% bread flour 65% water 2.2% salt, 10% pistacchio. /nai: Lovely as usual. Now you've done it Abel!  Made me write up another BBGA spreadsheet for this bread.  You must have known that one of my favorite grains is semloa rimacinata.  I still have a kilo or two of the Tritordeum "T150"  that we bought at Handsel & Grenel.  I will use that for the levain instead of the Caputo Tipo 1, and adjust the AP flour and semola.

/nhuman: Central Milling flours About to make an order from these folks...I bake mainly sourdoughs and enriched breads like Challah / Brioche (commercial yeast). I definitely want to try their ABC+ for sourdough, but would it also be good for challah?I've used ABC before for Challah and it comes out fine, not sure how the malt might impact it though. /nai: ABC+ Challah I usually just lurk here, so I'm excited to finally have a contribution! I recently started using ABC+ and have had good results with challah. I cannot compare with regular ABC though. Here's a loaf of ABC+ using mostly Maggie Glezer's "My Challah" recipe (I think I added an extra yolk and did a double egg wash).

/nhuman: New problem--my boules come out of the fridge and banneton fine, but seem to spread out instead of going up in the dutch oven. Why is this? I dont think im doing anything different. Maybe its a new flour? I've even tried reducing the hydration and it still seems to do it. I'm really trying to get some extra height. The oven spring is actually okay, it just doesnt go up as high as i'd like and you can tell it's because its spreading outwards. Thanks a lot! /nai: What does the cross section What does the cross section of the loaf look like? I had a problem like this. In the oven the loaf would spread out and not rise very well. Cross section of the loaf was dense crumb structure along the bottom with large airy pockets along the top of the loaf.  Problem was underproofing. I was putting the loaves in the fridge before they had risen enough. I started letting my loaves expand a lot bigger before putting them in the fridge and that solved the problem.  I should note I stopped using the finger push test for testing for a proofed loaf. I am just going by expansion in the second rise--the rise after shaping and putting in the banneton.

/nhuman: Starter smells eggy and sulfurus I just made a starter 3 days ago. Day 1 and 2 the starter smelled slightly rancid and fruity, something I expected. But this morning, on day 3, the starter had swelled up to nearly the top of my jar and it smells strongly of sulfur\eggs. I read a few things about it with differing opinions. Some say it will go away in a few days, some say to start over. I don't know what to do because I don't want to keep wasting flour on a lost cause. I'm using 50% organic stone ground dark rye and 50% organic unbleached all-purpose. I will also add that the first day was 100% dark rye, the morning after I added the all-purpose was when it smelled like eggs. In addition, the water in my area is known for having sulfur compounds in it. You can literally smell the sulfur from the tap, and it is very soft water. I will start using bottled water from this point on just to see. /nai: If this we started using the If this we started using the sulfur water, start over with "clean" water.

/nhuman: Local Wildlife Some sources say that the local wild yeasts and LAB where you keep and refresh your starter are particularly well adapted to that location; if you get a starter from elsewhere, eventually the locals will outcompete the foreigners.I live in San Diego, CA which is generally warm all year round (barring the occasional winter deep freeze into the low 60's F).  We are close to the coast where the climate is much less extreme than the inland areas (where I think Stanley Ginsburg of "The Rye Baker" may live).I wonder if this explains why my 100% whole rye starter (Great River Milling Dark Rye) takes longer and usually requires a higher temperature in the proofer to behave the way "Bread" and "The Rye Baker" describe in terms of volume, temperature, and time.  I need a temp of 80 - 85 F to get the kinds of timings they describe for room temperature 70 - 72 F.  Maybe my local team is just adapted to warmer San Diego ambient temps; at 70 F they are still shivering, they start reproducing around 75 F, and don't get really wild and crazy until 80 - 85 F. /nai: less habitat and more environment. By that I mean temperature, humidity/hydration and feeding schedule.While how you start your starter will influence what you get, how you keep it going has a HUGE effect on the microflora.

/nhuman: First sourdough attempt wholemeal rye My first attempt at sourdough - mixed wholewheat and white with a little rye - I began my starter about 3 weeks ago with kefir, peel from fallen apples and rye /nai: Looks a bit pale. Any details or comments?

/nhuman: what is going on with my starter I haven't seen evidence of my starter rising more than a centimeter.  I don't know if I should scrap or try something different.I'm on Day 12. Around Day 6 I did try 110 degrees water and I think I killed it a bit, but I thought it would've recovered by now. To be completely transparent,  I started with bleached AP, cause I didn't know any better. It was still bubbling well in the beginning, though hard to tell if it rose. I switched to King Arthur AP, was feeding AP, and now I'm trying bread flour. Someone HELP! below is 5 hrs after feeding today /nai: Well, first, don't get Well, first, don't get discouraged, these things take time, especially using bleached white flour. I it does work, I've done many, but it will take longer then normal, usually a lot longer. Bubbling and rising at first (probably 2 or 3 days in) is normal with this type of flour. It is bacterial activity, but not the bacteria we want. Nothing to worry about - this is the start of a process than can take 2-3 weeks using this flour.At this point 1 of 2 things may happen either it takes off in about a week, or nothing is gonna happen within the amount of time it'll take to start another using another method.If you're game and want to try an out of the box suggestion, throw in some oatmeal and see what happens in a couple days.The water probably didn't hurt much if any. If it was up around 120 or more different story.Some notes and principles that may come in handy.Feeding - feed when there's activity (ie bubbling and/or growth such as rising). Little activity requires little food and as there is more activity it'll need more food. Usually when a starter kicks in it does so with bang - lots of activity almost all of a sudden - and you may be close so beware.Discarding - if you've been following the usual method of starting a starter, you've probably been tossing out like half the starter and adding more flour and water, and probably doing this daily. Don't at this point (I've never thrown anything out) and it may not be helping any, especially with bleached flour. Remember, activity requires food, lack of activity doesn't - especially at this stage. Even though it looks like nothing is happening, something is, feeding and discarding at this stage can dilute what's already happened and that'll slow a slow process even more. There's appears to be some liquid at the top. Looks clear, probably just water. Which leads to next thing. Thicken up the starter a bit by adding just flour. It shouldn't be runny - if stirred with a butter knife it shouldn't pour or drip from the knife. You may notice more bubbles and maybe more rise.If this doesn't work out, and frustration hasn't turned you completely off to the idea of sourdough search for "pineapple solution"and read posts by a Debra Wink for another method that I hear works wonders.Oh, something else I just thought - if you can get some rye flour, our something like organic whole wheat or rye, toss some in and see what happens. Warning - it just may explode on ya! Enjoy and keep is posted!

/nhuman: Starter has developed cheese smell I've been baking with my starter for the last three years.  I do the same thing every time I feed it and either store it in the fridge or on my worktop with a lid on.  About 4 weeks ago I decided to start making kombucha and whilst it takes great, I've decided not to continue with it.  I stored the kombucha scoby in the fermenting jar on the same work surface, about 5 feet away from my sourdough starter.  On Thursday night I opened my starter to find it smelled of sweet cheese and the starter all around the edge had taken on a grey tinge, and the top had developed a skin.  No mold. None of the lovely acidic smell I'm used to.  I removed the skin and scraped the grey starter off.  Took a spoon of the 'ok' starter from the middle and put it in a new jar.  I've been feeding it my usual organic dark rye since then but it's still smelling cheesy.  It's producing bubbles as usual. Could I have some sort of cross contamination from the kombucha going on? Because my initial thought was it smelled unusually sweet (not the sweet smell of starter but more like sugar).  I have moved the kombucha scoby out of the kitchen now. I also thought that I might have fed my sourdough starter buckwheat by accident as the flour bags are almost identical as they come from a local mill. Could feeding something like buckwheat only once cause this?  I've read a few other posts, mainly from people just making their first starter who have this cheese smell.  I really don't want to get rid of this starter.  Should I add an acid like lemon juice, or just persevere with reducing down to minimum amount and feeding every day?  Thanks all! /nai: I would carefully take out some starter that looks healthy, transfer it to a clean jar and give it a good feed.Buckwheat does have a "different" smell to wheat and can turn a funny colour. If you did by mistake switch the flours then in all probability it's this. But to be on the safe side give some healthy starter some TLC.

/nhuman: My starter is having multiple cycles of rise and fall I'm feeding my 3 weeks old starter twice a day.  My kitchen is around 80ºF, and my mixture is 80g white organic flour, 20g rye flour, 16g mature starter, and 100g room temperature water. Six hours after feeding the starter is resting at its peak for just half an hour, then collapses and after 1 hour and a half starts rising again to its peak. Is this normal? I'm doing somenthing wrong? also what can i do to it takes longer (12 hours not 6 hours) to its peak? a small amount of inoculation or colder water? /nai: Mine does the same I'm new to sourdough (and baking bread in general), but in the short time I've been doing it, I've noticed the same behavior from my starter.  It rises to around 3x it's volume (judging by the sides of the jar) in around 4-6 hours, then collapses, then goes up again but not as high.  It seems to me that the bubbles from the first rise just get so big that they pop, deflating the starter, but the yeast is nowhere near done so just keeps going which results in the second rise.  I have been (maybe erroneously) determining peak activity, then, to be the peak of the second rise, not the first, which is around 10 hrs after feeding.  My loaves come out just perfect, with a nice open-ish crumb and lots of oven spring, so I am inclined to not change anything.  But am curious to hear what others have to say on this.

/nhuman: Lack of oven-spring ... Hi,I have been baking sourdough bread at home for a couple of years, but everything was "by eye", without measuring "exactly" anything.  But I was never quite satisfied with the flavor - too dull.  So I found this site, created a new starter following the pineapple juice method, and this time around I bought a kitchen scale and I am trying to be more consistent.  While developing the new starter, I noticed inconsistencies temperature-wise, so I decided to make my DIY proofing box as well (right now works between 76-78F). 2020-05-29_08-32-40_758.jpg This is my current method:- Thu afternoon, take starter (5oz) from fridge- Mix 1oz of starter, with 2oz water and 2oz flour - put in proofing box- Mix 2oz of starter, with 4oz water and 4oz flour (this is the levain) - put in proofing box - Friday mid morning, put starter back in fridge (at least 12h have passed)- Around mid-day Friday, mix 17.5oz of flour with 8.8oz of water - let sit for 30min - Mix flour with water with levian.  At this point the mix is way too messy, and too wet for me to mix, so I add about 2oz of flour to get a more manageable consistency.  I add the .35oz of salt at this point.- Fold and let rest 30min 5-6 times each- let rest until early evening for bulk fermentation 6-8h (in the proofing box)- cut in two, shape, put in banneton, covered in air-tight plastic bag and store in fridge - it is about 7-8pm now- Sat morning, about 9am, bring oven and dutch oven to 425F- Once ready, transfer bread into dutch oven (on wax paper), put in oven, bake with lid on for 25min.  Note that the bottom of my dutch oven has a small piece of wire frame so that the bottom of the loaf floats above the bare bottom of the dutch oven - I started doing this years ago to prevent the bottom from burning too much for my taste.- Remove lid, bake for another 25min- Remove bread, place on cooling pad, wait at least 30-45min before cutting/eating   20200530_111654.jpg  The crust is perfect, and tastes glorious.  The insides I feel need more work.  Not enough oven-spring, and although fully cooked, the insides "feel" almost two "wet" (I know, subjective), but not quite as firm as "I" feel it should be: 20200530_110551.jpg  Advice/tips?Will /nai: Cool longer and bulk rise shorter. let it cool longer say 2ours then the inside should be less wet. shen colling down it is still cooking and cut it to early.  For beter ovenspring bulk rise shorter. Also a stronger starter gives a beter ovenspring.I did take advice from Sune from foodgeek.dk and buildup my feeding scheme for the starter to 1:5:5 to make it stronger. It matues fulle in 12 ours now with 5 gram starter and 25 gram flour and 25 gram water. It almost triple in heigth.

/nhuman: Proteolytic starter ruining high-hydration whole wheat dough? Hi all, I didn't know whether to post this in whole grain or starters. I usually post in whole grain, and it's a whole-grain starter. But this question is all about the starter itself...So I made another run at the Theresa Greenway 100% hydration 100% whole wheat sourdough formula, with the same (failing) results as the last time. Her dough is smooth and elastic, mine is clotted, with a sort of weak, fragile mushy character. It displays some gluten but it's just not a pleasing dough at all. Going back to re-watch her video I can see that her 500 gram inoculation of 100% hydrated whole wheat starter looks like her dough: like a supple, elastic, high-hydration dough. Whereas my starter was shaggy/fragile/mushy....just like my dough is now.Did I allow my starter to over-ferment and go proteolytic, and now it has carried that same problem into the main dough?  Her formula is 500 grams of starter, 500 grams of water, 500 grams of flour, and 14 grams of salt. So 250 grams out of the 750 total grams of flour are in the pre-ferment.  It's a high percentage, especially if there's something wrong with it.She fermented her starter for 6 hours, whereas I left mine out overnight in a cool location. Did it just go way too far and develop a runaway enzyme reaction?The other possibility is that this is just more water than my flour can handle. What do you think? /nai: Photos? Its possible your starter may be over fermented but without photos it's not possible to diagnose.

/nhuman: hooch turned white and solid? Dear all,I stored my starter in the fridge after a fresh feed 6 weeks ago. I checked in passing about 4 weeks ago and it had hooch on it, dark liquid, which I've seen and dealt with before so I wasn't concerned and moved on. However when I went back to feed it this morning, about 6 weeks, there was no more hooch and instead I found some sort of white guy layer on top.I panicked and spooned it off so I don't have a pic to show unfortunately, but I'm still hoping people will be able to give me a clue.The closest thing I can think of is the sort of white fat that curdles at the top of broth if you know what I mean. Or maybe chickpeas liquid if you put it in the fridge for a while.I'm concerned that it was mold, but I don't get how it was possible... jar had nothing suspicious after 4 weeks, was sealed in the fridge so what happened? also wondering where the hooch went.Anybody seen this kind of thing before?thank you very much for your help, /nai: Likely mold But don’t be too concerned. It happens. Just scoop it off and use something from the bottom to feed a new starter. Mold can definitely grow at fridge temperatures. And it can develop quickly. 6 weeks is a long time unfed. I usually feed refrigerated starter once a week. Anything over two weeks is in rescue mode. Where I scrape from the bottom to rebuild. I won’t use one that’s more than a week or so old to build a levain. James

/nhuman: Sourdough rolls Haven't posted in a long long time.  Just sharing a few sourdough rolls I was experimenting with this weekend.  Not super pretty, but really tasty, light, and fluffy rise. /nai: Looks good to me What is the topping?  It's not just sesame seeds, is it?

/nhuman: Dough breaks before second rise is finished Hi folks,Even though I peaked in here a few times over the last couple of active sourdough years, this is my first post. So far I was able to always find an answer to my problems, but this one is giving me a head ace since a while and digging in my personal recipe and procedure might give me a better answer / solution from you guys. So I am baking on a commercial micro bakery level since a couple of years (around 100 loafs a day for 2 days a week). Since my set up is pretty basic (no mixers, no proofers, only commercial convection oven), my breads are either high hydration tartine style miches, dense grains loaded rye breads or a simple overnight proof (room temp.) no knead sourdough pan bread.The later is the one giving me sleepless nights since a while. The thing is: although I am measuring my factors (temp., time, etc.) every time to get consistency, I have very different outcomes from one week to another. Between beautifully risen loafs ready to get baked up to half risen ones starting to rip/crack and fall of at the end of the second rise (not giving much of an oven spring). So I guess I just gonna lay down my recipe and process and let you guys shoot your ideas.4900g organic white flour (all purpose) 3400g water (90°F)100g salt600g liquid started (peaked after 5h rise)1.) At 5pm I mix everything together (no autolyse)2.) I set room temp. at 73°F3.) I give S&F every 30min for the next 2-3h 4.) Around 3am the bulk is at around double the size (everything looks fine so far). I separate the dough and let it bench rest for around 15min before putting it in the loaf pans, covered with humid clothes to not let them dry out. I try to not handle the dough to much - no real final shaping, just forming a tight ball with my bench knife. 5.) Then, while baking my miches for the next 4h, I let the pan loafs rise at around 80-85°F. Temp. is hard to control in my small bakery with 3 ovens running at 500°F, but I figured out how to keep the temp stable. 6.) At around 8am the miches are done and I am ready to put the pan loafs. But here is the thing: some batches rise very well - doubled in size (slightly over the rim of the pan with no cracks) and spring nicely in the oven after. Other batches, like the last two weeks, rise around 50% (2-3h in the rise) and start cracking all over. The never get over the rim and shot almost no oven spring after.So any ideas out there?Here are some pictures: Obviously those are the good ones (full risen) (not even fully risen, but already breaking) - note: the glossy surface is due to sprayed water just before baking(les risen, flat top, broken structure, more dense crumb) /nai: A couple of guesses 2 guesses.acid over loadtoo much water on the skin before baking.Like I said, just a couple of guesses. It must be super frustrating!Danny