Okay, good morning everybody. How are you? Yeah, I
mean since I left you, I've been trying to
diagnose why the sick was wrong, you know, why the
rose was sick. And, you know, I have not reached,
like, a certain diagnosis. So today, hopefully,
you'll help me to tell me what made the sick, I
mean, the rose very sick. Today, you know, we're
going to continue discussing the poem, I mean, in
terms of form. and in terms of imagery as well. So
if we have some imagery, because I think we
discussed the figurative
language last time, did we? Okay, so let's do all
of this together today, like we're going to look
at everything today. And then we'll assign some
time for symbolic interpretation. Okay. Oros thou
art sick.
Now, what kind of figure of speech is this? Oh
Rose, thou art sick. Yes, please. It is a
personification. Like the rose is perceived or is
personified like a person who is sick. who's sick.
Now, this is what we see in the poem. However,
this is a multi-layer figure of speech. Like the
rose itself, yes, it is like a person who's dead.
But we ask ourselves, what does this rose stand
for? So, you know, after all, it is a symbol. You
know, we have symbolism. It is a personal
vocation, oh rose, thou art sick. And you know,
this personal vocation even is made clearer by the
apostrophe, oh rose, thou art sick. The invisible
worm that flies in the night, in the howling
storm, has found out thy bed of crimson joy.
Again, you know, the invisible worm is like what?
Yeah, it's like an intruder, a person. This is
another personification. An intruder who is
invading the peaceful bed of the sick rose. has
found out thy bed with crimson joy.
Now, I think crimson joy, you know, what is it? It
is oxymoron, because we have two contradictory,
you know, ideas, two contradictory words. And his
dark, secret love, it is a paradox. How come? You
know, love is dark and secret. Does thy life
destroy? So again, the rose is perceived like a
person. If we are looking at the images, I think
we have visual images, we have color images, we
have kinetic images. Or roses that are sick.
Usually roses are associated with which color?
Red, oh rose, thou art sick. And red is always
associated with emotion and passion. The invisible
worm, the invisible worm. You know, the tricky
thing, this is like, as we said last time, it is
invisible, you know, but literally it is not
invisible. So invisible, it is like, Yeah, one
side of it, like it is there, you know, physically
it is there, it has a shape, it has a form, but it
is abrupt, it is invisible, we don't know, it is
unpredictable, it is very precarious, very
precarious. That flies, I mean, even if you look
at the worm, the worm itself, has this disgusting
form, shape, and its movement is slow. It is very
slouching. But here, later, that flies. So it has
both characteristics. It moves slowly. However,
when it defines
its target, it flies. And this adds more danger to
it.
In the howling storm, I mean, the night, of
course, it is dark. So we have the image of
darkness. It's a visual image. In the howling
storm, we have a sound image, which, of course,
onomatopoeia. And we, like last time, we imitated
the voice. It was very funny. has found out the
bed of crimson joy. Here, again, you have two
visual images. Joy, you know, I mean, sorry. Joy,
it's an abstract thing, but it's crimson joy. How
come? How come joy is colorful? But we said, like,
crimson also associated with, you know, pain. So
we're talking about, you know, a crimson fever,
it's fatal, painful joy. I don't think we have
other images. Good. This is like what we call the
special language of poetry, which we might need to
use whenever we interpret. Now let's move to the
meter, which is very interesting and I think It
poses some challenge for us, like in the act of
interpretation.
Oros, as you see, thou art sick. You know?
Oros, thou art sick. As you see, there is scansion
here. Oros, You know, stressed syllables. It
started by two. You know, the poem, if you know,
the meter of the poem is, and his dark secret
love, which is like anabast. It is anabast. Two
unstressed followed by one stress. Like here, this
is the meter. and his dark secret love and his
unstressed, unstressed, dark, strict, secret, two
syllables, unstressed, and then love. This is the
meter. What is happening here? There is, you know,
what they call substitution. Like sometimes, you
know, the anabas is substituted by another meter,
by iambic or a spondee as it is happening here. Oh
Rose, now why? Why? This is like we have to
answer. Oh Rose, thou art sick. Why it is too
stress? See? Think about it. The invisible world,
If you look at the invisible, it is here, the in,
it is one syllable. So it is unstressed.
The invisible worm, unstressed, the in,
it's one syllable. If we look at it like this,
V, N, you know, and then visible, you know, this
is like iambic, you know, it is unstressed. Then
you have visible, you know, visible, visible to
unstressed, you know, visible, sorry, to
unstressed, and then stressed. So anabast. The
same is happening here. That flies, you know, that
flies, that flies in the night, in the night, you
know, it is أنا بس. So we have two iambic
substituted here. Then here, as you see, it is
again what? Yes, أنا بس and then iambic. So it is
reversing. Has found out thy bed, it is the same.
Has found, it is anabas, and then iambic. Of the
crimson joy, this is the only iambic.
So it's pure iambic of, as you see, of crimson
joy. And then this is like, you see what? And it's
dark. This is the pure anabas.
So it is foregrounded. It is foregrounded. Does
thy life destroy? It is, you know, similar to this
line. It is too unstressed. It is unabashed
followed by, you know, iambic. So what is this?
It's really weird. It is strange. But usually in
stylistics, we have something called
foregrounding. You know what's foregrounding?
Putting in the focus. You are taking stylistics.
Today. Today. You are taking foregrounding. And
foregrounding also is achieved by deviation.
Because this deviates from the norm of the poem.
These are the pure stylistic features. So what do
you think? Why? Iambic has to do with melody, with
musicality.
Anabas has to do with sadness, subtlety, something
like this. So what do you want to say? Why? And
his dark secret love. He wants to evoke a certain
mood. Yeah, he wants to?
What mood do you think?
Yes,
I think here it's like the foreground is like
because this is the most central. So we keep
asking ourselves, how come? you know, is love
which is always bright. It is very important, like
to stress the importance. This is the most
important line in the poem. Without understanding
this, you will never understand any
interpretation. I mean, you know, you'll never
account very well for any interpretation. Your
interpretation will be very weak. And his dark
secret love, you know, look here, and his dark
secret, you see, and his dark secret love does thy
life destroy. You see, you have six syllables and
it goes like this, and his dark secret love. You
know, the riddle invites us to meditate, to think
about this, and his dark secret love does die
alive, destroy. But, you know, here again, why is
it iambic pentameter? Yes?
So even in the future we have violence. So yes,
again, you know, you want to say like, the whole
poem, the dominant atmosphere of the poem is like
paradoxical. We have contrast, so this is part of
the whole scheme, just giving us, you know,
contrasting elements and inviting us to make sense
of these contrasting elements. You see? Yeah, and
those two lines, maybe he's doing the
foregrounding. He's shedding light and focusing on
these two lines, on the paradox and the axiom. The
fact that there's something contradictory that we
need to figure out. Yes. But let's go back to the
beginning, you know. Oh, Rose. Oh, Rose. Why do...
This is a spondee, what we call a spondee. Why?
Oh, Rose, like... Oh, Rose. You know? Oh, Rose.
They were sick. You know? It carries with it what?
A sense of shock. Oh, Rose. They were sick, you
know? They were sick. Look at the anabas. They
were sick. Like you're shocked. And then you say
with bitterness, with a sense of bitterness, they
were sick. You see? I think we can account for
this. We can account for this. But I don't want to
go deeper. I just want you to see this is the most
musical because we said like Ayambic, it is very
melodious. So what does he say of crimson joy? Is
he sarcastic? Is he sarcastic? Because this is not
something which invites or which reflects an
atmosphere of happiness, real happiness. So, given
all these poetic aspects, I think it is very
important, like, when we interpret, we take them
into consideration. Yes, I want to say something.
Yes, please. Since he started with A Rose Thou Art
Set, we see that there is the, I think it is the
conclusion of the whole story. So he started it
from the end, and then he goes back to the reason
why it is that. Yes. So I think for the five lines
at the beginning of the story, there is a kind of
infusion between the iambic and the anapasitic
diameter. And then he started at the end to give
us, I think, every meter alone. So here of Crimson
Joy, it is the iambic one. So he has given us the
reason. When it is so emotional, but it is, I
think, a negative emotion. And this is what we
mean by sarcastic. He's sarcastic. Yes, and then
the other line, and his dark secret love, it is
Anabaptistic also. So this is another conclusion
for the first one, terms of joy, which is, I
think, it is so destructive. Yeah, and it is the
only Anabaptist here in the whole poem. It is the
only Anabaptist. But it is the corner, I mean, it
is the basis of the whole poem. Yes, very good.
Yes, I like this is you know, the main reason
Look, this is the value of having two teachers,
you know, we're complementing each other. Okay.
Yes It is here like to focus like to say yes You
know, this is the main reason it is dark secret
love Yes Okay, let's a little bit immersed in the
symbolic interpretations. The rose, the invisible
world. So we have two, you know, like two main
symbols. Of course, we have the night, we have the
howling storm, we have, you know, the bed. What
else? You know, we have these things. So the rose
stands for what? Yes? Nature.
Nature. And they were? Industrial revolution. Can
you tell me, like, can you elaborate a little bit?
Do you agree with her, like, about this
interpretation? Which is very strong. If we are
looking back at the age of, you know, or the 18th
century, let's say, you know, the age of Blake.
Yes?
Okay, let's say, yes, we do agree with you. The
rose, you know, stands for nature, which was
abused by? The industrial revolution. The
industrial revolution, and we mean pollution, you
know, and the smoke of factories, et cetera. But
here, if you come up with this interpretation, you
might need to look at dark secret love and the
crimson joy. How?
You see? You see. Okay. If you, like, you need to
use these two images. Yes? Maybe it represents...
No, let us stick to her. You see? Let us stick to
her interpretation. How come, like, you know,
this, you know, the industrial revolution... What
does industrial revolution in nature have to do
with dark secret love?
Well, people were indeed like, they were crazy
about industrial revolution. They were moving from
the countryside. Yeah, excellent. They were really
excited. They were getting into it. They were
really involved. From the outside, you know,
because it meant, you know, mainly the industrial
revolution was meant to enhance the welfare of
human beings. So ostensibly, it was for the
service of humanity. But what happened, you know,
like, but what is like what like whenever we have
mechanization and whenever we have machines, do
you think, you know, the main purpose of those who
started like to enhance the, you know, to enhance
the life of people or Yes. So most of these
projects, you know, were just making money. And
they might not care about the consequences. So
those who invented the machines, okay, they
wanted, you know, like mainly they wanted to make
some money. Look in America, the North invaded the
South because of money, because they wanted to
sell their machines. I think also the war against
Iraq was to sell, you know, weapons for, you know,
yeah. So you see what I mean? Yes. From the
outside, it was for you know, the service of
humanity, but honestly, like the, if you look
back, you might find that, you know, the real
reasons were not like that. So, people are
fascinated, again, crimson joy. You enjoy, you
have the washing machine, you know, you enjoy how
it is very fast, how it is very speedy. Yes, you
might not be aware of like the hidden things, you
know, in it. And then, I don't know, like, I'm not
warning you, but everything is safe. But imagine
it has, you know, something we don't know, it
might be very dangerous. Yeah, that's why it's
invisible more. Because it's a sight we don't
really notice and we don't be aware of. Yes,
because the invisible... That's why it's
invisible. Because it looks good.
Good. So if you want like this is how we need to
warrant to justify our interpretation. These are
very central to any interpretation. Let's move to
another interpretation. Yes? It can be represented
as
Innocence. Yeah,
we can say, you know, like the innocence of people
because the countryside people were innocent. And
when industrialization intruded the countryside,
that innocence was lost. Even new values emerged,
new materialistic values emerged. So the whole
innocence was lost. And all of that was for the
service of humankind. for what it works, like the
sons of innocence and experience, for example, the
chimney sweeper and the other one for the
children. When they're innocent, they're playing,
they're joyful in the countryside. And then when
they go into the city, they become chimney
sweepers and it becomes all about them. Yeah, so
we have like transformation in, you know, human,
in the values of society. Yes, please. According
to the ruling characteristics of his age, like for
their narcissism, he was against them, he was
running for enemies and it was normal to him. But
they were here about just like the society and
like their nature and rules.
So his poetry which was rejected Okay,
so his poetry is like what? It's the sick rose and
he's lamenting the fact that his poetry is not
accepted You know
It's a good idea, but it needs hard work to
justify. You see what I mean? It's good. I like it
very much. You know? Yes? It's the woman. Yeah,
like this is what most of the critics would say.
And sometimes I say it could be a man, this cross.
Because if you are taking Judy the Obscure,
Hardy's last novel, Judy was a man. You know, who
was like destroyed by a woman. So you can look at
this both ways. Of course, any illegal, any
illicit relationship might lead to this
destruction. Destruction of fame, destruction of
reputation. And you know, we said last time,
satanic things, satanic things, we as Muslims, we
know we are immune against such atrocities, such,
you know, misbehavior. Why? Because we know how
Satan usually decorates things, makes them
beautiful, you know, and then, like, makes people
fall in the snares, you know. It's a kind of You
know, attraction, it's a kind of... And then what
happens after that? Remorse, regret, and you
know... Life destroyed. Yeah. So this is like the
crimson joy, which is, you know, very terrible.
It's very destructive joy. But I want to, you
know, stretch it more. And we mentioned last time
teachers and students.
Does this like teachers and students? You are the
roles, yes? You are the roles. And now not us, not
other people, you know? Okay, and you can be vice
versa. So how? How come? How come be like the
students? Be like a rose, they are made sick.
Maybe if they're corrupt, like sometimes when you
talk about corrupted educational system, right?
And you have like really bright students, but you
have the system itself, the educational
methodology, the teachers, everything is not
really good, something that is actually harmful.
It's destructive rather than instructive. The ways
that they use are actually destroying the
students' mentality, ability to think, the desire
to learn, so it can be destructive. Yeah, and like
how can... They go to schools and they're
expecting to learn, but they end up hating
schools. And when they, you know, these students,
the same students might pass, you know, and they
become very jovial, very happy, but when they want
to go and find a job, you know, they don't. You
know why? Because they were not trained very well
for the job.
holding and destructive ideas and beliefs from
other cultures to destroy our own cultures and
beliefs. Yes, very good. And you know, all of
this, you know, is given the shape of progress,
of, you know, wisdom, of fascination, you know.
Good.
Again, like parents and children. Parents and
children. If you spoil your children, it's joyful
to be spoiled and to have all this. How come? Yes,
yes. It's joyful, but at the same time it ends up
being destructive also. You end up being alone.
How would you characterize dark secret love? Do
you think like parents might hold this kind of
love to their kids? Yes. Yes. Maybe when the
parents love their children very much, they will
keep them in the house. There is no there is no
when parents are
they go to the outside, they will find another
word, not like the word they imagined in their
mind. So they will destroy them. Yeah, I mean,
overprotection, over love, this is what we call
perverted love. Perverted love. You know what it
means? Upside-down love. Perverted.
And this could be one of the many themes of the
poem. Perverted, it is upside down. How come? You
know? Yes, you're right. If we tend to love our
kids or even our students too much to the extent
that we put up with their mistakes. We tolerate
their mistakes. We don't care when they commit
mistakes. So they develop and we always make
available everything they need. We don't let them
think or fret how to find like what they need. So
they will develop into very dependent you know,
personalities. And this is like, we're harming
them, we're destroying them. When they go on their
own, like in life, they will be unable to manage.
You see what I mean? Good. What other
interpretations do you have for this? So far we
mentioned Nature and you know,
love and pure love and what? I think if you love,
you describe by jealousy. Very good. Yeah,
jealousy. Nobody has talking about jealousy.
Nobody has talking about, you know, talked about
Yes. No, I mean, hypocrisy, you know, the
hypocrites, sometimes friends, like two friends
who are, you know, one friend is making an
advantage of the other. And this friend, like,
pretends to be a friend, but his, you know,
motives are sinister. So you might find some
people whom you don't see as pernicious. You don't
see them harmful, but they are the invisible. They
work very hard to destroy you. It happens. Some
people are devilish. Evil is there. So we have to
be very careful. We have to, you know, make sure
that the motives of those people are genuine, you
know. Yeah. Yes, Hidayat, what do you want to say?
Yeah, which is the interpretation of life. most
honorable interpretation of the parenthood. Okay,
you like this interpretation. But here, yes?
Another interpretation, when exaggerating
confidence in someone. Confidence is a good thing,
but when it arises in someone, it will destroy
him. It becomes pride.
Okay, so Blake wrote poetry which invited us to
think, to imagine. And that was something against
the expectation, the norm of the time. That, you
know, was a revolutionary way of writing poetry.
It is revolutionary. As you see, he's not
following. And even the rhyme, it is, we don't
have the heroic couplet. You see? So it is A, B,
C, D, you know. We don't have the heroic couplet.
We don't have the rules, you know, like the poetic
diction. Okay? And it's poetry which invites us to
think, to imagine. What is the theme? It's giving
space to the reader. Yes. And what is he writing
about? He's writing about, not Belinda, not
Ashtiful, like great people. He's talking about a
rose, a rose, you know? A simple, you know, plant,
a rose. So, I mean, the topic or what is he
talking about is simple, something drawn from
nature. Now, I think this is a revolutionary way.
As you see here, he is writing in a fashion which
is not in agreement with the expectation of the
time. That's why he was stigmatized as mad. But we
cannot understand Blake until we, like, go through
other poems. And next time I think we're doing The
Tiger. It seems like everybody's fascinated with
The Tiger. Okay. So I think The Tiger is another
one. Did you teach any like when you were teaching
Blake? The Tiger? What did you teach? London. The
Chartered Streets. Yes.
The Tomb Sweeper, The Black Boy, The Lamb.
Yeah, it folds. You see, the songs of innocence
are the songs of experience. Like here, this is
how he saw the word. He saw the words in
dichotomy. But did he see there that they were
complementary? The song of innocence? I mean
innocence and experience? In what sense?
Yes, in order to complete. Because he actually, in
the sense of innocence, he is interested in the
childlike vision. I think it is the innocence time
of the children before they are getting corrupted
by the experience, before they are becoming
adults, and I think they are immersed in life and
getting more experience in it. And then he came
back to, I think- So does he mean by the
experience, like, you know, the learning of the
time, the religion of the time, which was full of
hypocrisy? This is experience, the experience like
which is spoiled, you know? And this is what made
him, I think, you know, because he, you know,
Blake was confused during his time because he
looked at Christianity and those who were supposed
to be, you know, like good people, virtuous people
were devilish, satanic, were corrupted. I mean,
the church during his time was corrupted. And
that's why he wrote something called The Marriage
Between Earth and Heaven, I think, you know, in
which, like in the hell, like they were, you know,
the good and the bad were walking hand in hand.
Yes, it is very central, as we mentioned in his
philosophy, that without contraries, there is no
progression. Yes, Blake saw that we need
experience, which represents order. We need
innocence, but there should be a balanced
relationship between them. Otherwise, if
experience is too much, like in this, you know, so
what happens? It leads to destruction. You know?
And again, also the tiger, it leads to
destruction. So there should be a kind of balance
in order to have like a good human being. But
after all, this is, you know, a free voice. This
is the voice of individual who is very creative.
You know, we have a voice which was denied during
the 18th century. I'm going to teach them the
tiger, tiger, tiger, burning bride. And this is
next time we're doing. So I think the sick rose
and the tiger are from the songs of experience.
Yes, experience. We're not teaching any other. You
know, because this, we leave this to romanticism,
you know? Okay. Okay. Thank you very much for
listening to us. You know, do you have any
question? No. Okay, thank you.